Fashion Neurosis with John Malkovich

Summary

Podcast Summary: Fashion Neurosis with John Malkovich

Podcast: Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud
Host: Bella Freud
Guest: John Malkovich
Date: September 3, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, fashion designer Bella Freud welcomes acclaimed actor, director, and clothing designer John Malkovich. The conversation delves into the deep-rooted connection between clothes and identity. They explore Malkovich’s lifelong obsession with detail, the fabric of personal style, family influences, and the intersections of creativity in acting and fashion. Through anecdotes both humorous and poignant, they discuss the meaning and memory sewn into garments, artistic collaborations, and how the act of dressing can be an act of self-definition.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Clothes We Wear: Ritual and Obsession

• Malkovich’s Outfit Story ([01:16]):
  • Wearing Techno Bohemian trousers and jacket (from his own line) and a shirt from his “John Malkovich” collection.
  • He recently brought these items from France while selling his house; the practicality and storage history evoke feelings of time and place.
  • “This is just one of the things I brought to take back...because it's just been sitting in the closet for five years or something in France.”
• Fabric Lore ([02:45]):
  • Malkovich discusses his favorite fabric supplier (Subal Pinot) and the specific cavalry twill weave.
  • He loves tactile experiences and fabric choices, connecting material with creativity.

Origins of a Style Obsession ([03:09 – 06:59])

• Malkovich reflects on formative influences—his elegant yet simple father, his grandmother’s taste, and the difficulty of finding stylish clothes as a heavier young man.
• The allure of looking at fabric and people’s attire has been omnipresent in his life.
  • “I was always obsessed with clothes. I can't really say why…when I grew up, it was a much more elegant time.” ([03:32])
• He speaks of the intoxicating possibilities of materials, described through his passion for visiting fabric fairs.
• On the creative process:
  • “A director should open world. They shouldn't close the world. And that's how I feel about going to look at fabrics.” ([07:30])

Style as Resistance and Self-Expression

• Malkovich narrates a story of being mocked in his youth for sartorial choices—beer bottles thrown by his brother.
  • “There is a price in life for doing what you want. … That really filtered into most elements of my life.” ([09:52–12:19])
• Freud and Malkovich agree on the depth and seriousness of fashion for those who love it:
  • “To people who care about [fashion], it's a very profound form of expression, of self-expression.” ([12:19])

Family: Legacies Both Light and Dark ([13:47 – 15:52])

• Malkovich reflects on family lineage, humorously uncertain about his Balkan roots, his father’s strictness, and the odd sentimentalities of his grandfather.
• On his father:
  • A Halloween contest lesson—learning to “develop a third eye.”
  • “If you cared about playing baseball as much as you cared about the way you look playing baseball, you would be very good.” ([20:45])

Love, Influence, and the Power of Style ([22:49])

• Malkovich recalls changing career paths because of an infatuation with a cool, stylish girl at university.
  • “She looked like Carly Simon… pretty much a hippie dressed girl. So very low swung bell bottoms, wide belt, hippie purse…” ([23:09])

The Acting Craft: Boundaries and Relationships

• On Michelle Pfeiffer and Colleagues ([27:22 – 30:51]):
  • Malkovich is candid, cryptic about his relationship with Pfeiffer—valuing her as a colleague.
  • On collaborative relationships:
    • “When that relationship becomes more than collegial...you lose a great colleague.” ([30:34])

Fashion Film Collaborations ([31:58 – 41:27])

• Bella and John reminisce about making short fashion films together (Straphanging, Lady Behave, Hideous Man).
  • The process showcased instinct, irreverent storylines, and bringing clothes—and outlandish notions—to life on screen.
  • On their mode of collaboration:
    • “They open a world… and you look at that opening and you go, look at that.” ([36:04])
• Tales from casting (street-casting, seeking unconventional actors, and involving friends) and on-set improvisation.

Creation vs. Commercialism

• On designing prints and concepts for his line Techno Bohemian:
  • “I never had a shortage of ideas…I did what I wanted and I think it was worth it.” ([45:51–49:41])
• The financial risks of creative independence—doing what you love, regardless of sales.

What Clothes ‘Work’: Comfort, Visual Cohesion, and Artistic Criteria ([50:35])

• Malkovich describes his compulsion for matching, for aesthetic “cohesion”:
  • “It’s the vanity of what I like. Not what I look like or present. It's what I like to see.” ([52:28])
• Admires contemporary designers (Comme des Garçons, Bottega Veneta, Molly Goddard) for the structural and dreamlike qualities of their work.
  • “Talent…Excellent creation…provokes dreams, I think.” ([54:06])

Being John Malkovich: The Untold Editing Story ([56:40 – 66:05])

• Malkovich wanted to direct the film if it could be about someone else—Charlie Kaufman refused.
• On working with Spike Jonze, sharing “there was a price” to making art true to one's vision, and his direct advice during editing:
  • “I said to Spike, I think you need to cut ... My estimation is 21 minutes. I know the film is in there...And he told me, which I thought was hilarious, he told me I was too close to it.” ([63:39])
• The eventual cut, restored “Jewish vaudeville” humor, and public reception in Venice—10 minutes of riotous laughter at the absurdity of his pairing with Charlie Sheen.

Sympathy, the Performer’s Duty, and Character Truth ([67:24 – 69:50])

• Freud wonders if Malkovich feels an audience’s “will to love you” despite his unsympathetic characters.
  • Malkovich responds:
    • "Generally people trust me to go as far as I can in presenting something truthful about this person. ... The attempt matters to people, that you're trying to do something." ([68:45])
    • Acting is “giving life to the imaginary.”

Attraction and Clothing ([69:50])

• Does a bad outfit kill attraction?
  • “No. …There are some unfortunate looks, let's say. But I don't...It doesn’t much bother.”
• Malkovich speaks of picking clothes for his sisters, and frequently buying for his wife Nicole, both of whom are minimal shoppers.

Packing, Travel, & Practicality ([71:59])

• Malkovich is a “heavy packer”—a necessary habit due to the varied demands of his professional and personal life.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Creative Instincts:
  “You can only have an instinct. You can only have a hunch.” ([31:58])
• On Collaboration:
  “They open a world. They don’t close a world.” – Malkovich on directors, designers, and collaborators ([07:30, 36:04])
• On Artistic Sacrifice:
  “There is a price in life for doing what you want, I think.” ([09:52])
• On Detail Obsession:
  “It’s the vanity of what I like. Not what I look like or present. It's what I like to see.” ([52:28])
• On Making Art for Art’s Sake:
  “But I did what I wanted and I think it was worth it.” ([49:41])
• On Playing Characters:
  “That's our job, is to make people want to find out what is going to happen to that person.” ([69:45])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:16 – Malkovich describes his outfit
• 02:45 – On fabric selection & suppliers
• 03:32 – Childhood influences & style obsession
• 07:30 – The fabric fair and “opening worlds”
• 12:19 – Fashion as self-expression
• 20:45 – Father’s lesson on vanity and baseball
• 23:09 – The girl who changed his career path
• 27:22 – Working with Michelle Pfeiffer, “the line never crossed”
• 31:58 – The fashion film “Straphanging” and instinctive storytelling
• 36:04 – On directors/collaborators opening creative worlds
• 45:51 – Designing prints, creative process, and “Mr. Mudd”
• 52:28 – What makes Malkovich feel good in clothes
• 56:40 – The story behind Being John Malkovich and editing drama
• 63:39 – On the humor found with Charlie Sheen in Venice
• 67:24 – Sympathy for characters and acting philosophy
• 69:50 – Attraction and clothing
• 71:59 – Heavy packing and travel habits

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Tone & Atmosphere

The conversation is intimate, philosophical, and rich with wit—reflective of the long friendship and creative rapport between Bella Freud and John Malkovich. The anecdotes are peppered with self-deprecating humor, keen observation, and a perpetual sense of creative play. Both treat fashion not as frivolity, but as a serious, joyful, and sometimes existential impulse—a “neurosis” in the best sense.

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For anyone who hasn’t listened, this episode is a deep dive into the artistry, psychology, and peculiar joy of dressing and creating—with stories and insights that are both unique and deeply universal.

Transcript

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[Bella Freud]

Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis, John Malkovich.

[John Malkovich]

Thank you for having me.

[Bella Freud]

Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?

[John Malkovich]

I chose these particular clothes. We're trying to sell our place in France. So I brought a lot of stuff from France which had just been sitting in closets for years. The pants and the jacket are from Techno Bohemian, which is the name of the second line I did. And this shirt is from the last line, which just had my name, which I don't think was a great idea, but that's okay. So that's what I'm wearing today. Why is it harder? Because we were in La Coste, where you'd been last week, and it was just blazing hot. It was incredibly hot. And then I saw that in the mornings it's going to be quite cool here. Mosley. So this is just one of the things I brought to take back to America because it's just been sitting in the closet for five years or something in France.

[Bella Freud]

I must say, the fabric of those trousers is amazing. I'm just at the phase. I'm just trying to find a few more fabrics. And I remember when we used to go to Premier Vision, the fabric fair together, and you introduced me to some mills where they were really good. And I must find out where that's from.

[John Malkovich]

This, I believe, is a company who does a lot. Big quantity of stuff and quite good quality called Subal Pinot. And it's just a cavalry twill, fine kind of cotton.

[Bella Freud]

I love that kind of weave. It's great.

[John Malkovich]

Yeah, they're very good. I use a lot of their stuff over the years.

[Bella Freud]

And we've known each other for many years and I've never met anyone with the level of obsession with clothes that you do. And in fact, sadly true, not many people in fashion have it to the degree that you do. And I wondered, where does this come from? And how does your, how did your family dress?

[John Malkovich]

My father was quite good looking and he was quite an elegant man, but very simple and he looked fantastic kind of in anything. My grandmother had pretty good taste actually and bought most of our family's clothes or at least paid for them because she owned the newspaper in our little town. But I think I was always obsessed with clothes. I can't really say why. I was always obsessed with looking at photos of adults and of elegant people. And I think when I grew up, it was a much more elegant time than. Pretty much every man wore his suit every day, which I did for many, many years. Good. Probably 20 years or so, I wore his suit every day. I don't know why really. It could have to do with when I was a young kid and up to the age of 15, I think, or so I was heavy, so I couldn't. It was hard to find clothes that fit. Clothes that I'd like so could be partially due to that, but partially that interest was always there. And I always loved to go see what people make. And I don't think it's so much about me because just yesterday I was at the Dover street market and looking at designers. I didn't see any men's thing when I was there. But just to go and look at things, to see what people are doing has always interested me and I've always had a deep fascination for it. Often very specific opinions about what I see and. But I always found it a fascinating occupation or calling, however one wants to describe it. I don't know why and I don't even know if I'd be capable of thinking about it very profoundly. I don't know, but it's something. When I would go to the Fabric Fair where I many over many years often saw you there, I loved going around looking at hundreds of thousands of pieces of fabric every fair. I mean, just an incredible amount. And I always felt like I could have done 50 lines with completely different fabric choices every time.

[Bella Freud]

I know you've always had that kind of. You've never. I mean, that Fabric Fair is one of the most grueling and soul destroying experiences. And I, I remember once, back in the early days of Alexander McQueen, bumping into him sitting there eating a gigantic baguette and just saying, I hate this place. How do you manage? And. And you managed to turn it into something so much more interesting. I loved going around with you.

[John Malkovich]

I loved it because I'm probably overly obsessed by details, maybe, but I loved it because it always opened up possibilities to me. I was saying to someone the other day about what makes a good director, say, in my day job, which is often acting in plays or movies, or I do a lot of now classical music collaborations. And I think the fabric fair to me is about what I'd say about directors. A director should open world. They shouldn't close the world.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[John Malkovich]

And that's how I feel about going to look at fabrics. I kind of go, oh, well, if I use that, then I could do this, like this, and not just like that. So although it is grueling and you have fabric in your eyes and in your ears and down your throat, under your fingernails, et cetera, because it's hard to explain to somebody who's never done it that there are millions of pieces of fabric there in the many millions, I think. And to kind of have to narrow that down in this very limited time is a pretty tall task. But I always loved to go and look at it. That's something I never would have complained about it.

[Bella Freud]

And you said in an interview, you said I had an older brother, and I can remember he and his friends driving by and throwing beer bottles at me because of some outfit choice I'd made in the sixth grade. And I was always interested in how things look and giving some visual cohesion. And I wondered, why did that matter more than the expense of being seriously mocked?

[John Malkovich]

I don't think I really cared about that that much. My brother tortured me most of the time anyway. And chances are, if he was with friends, that would have been a factor that would have lent more gentleness or even humanity to the mockery, rather than if it was just my brother with me. But I think it probably didn't bother me because I always had my interests, and I think I always. Somewhere, I think I must have known that there's. I mean, you. You and I, I think, have talked about this before. You've done fashion for a long time. I did. I think. 24 collections, full collections. There is a price in life for doing what you want, I think.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. Especially in fashion.

[John Malkovich]

Yeah, absolutely. And it can be not just a financial prize, but in a lot of other ways. But I think I've kind of been used to that since I was a kid. And if I wanted to experiment with madras On Madras, then, okay, too bad the rest of the. And I think I was comfortable with that from the time I was a child, principally because my father not just said, but kind of beat into me the notion that you decide, not me, not your mother, not your teacher, you decide what you're going to do, what you're going to be, how you feel about it, how you regard it, how you think about what you do. And that really filtered into most elements of my life. But more than anything, it filtered into how I work.

[Bella Freud]

Right.

[John Malkovich]

And fashion, I think, is. Can be a sort of surprisingly profound. Maybe not to people who look at it and people who don't care about it, which I understand very well. I'm sure you do, too. But to people who care about it, it's a very profound form of expression, of self expression. So the idea that I would take, say, being in a movie any more seriously than these buttons, which I just replaced in Poland a month ago because they'd driven me nuts for a year since I first rediscovered this jacket in my closet and friends, because they were way too small for the buttonholes. And anyway, everything about the buttons irritated me and somebody else probably could care less. And I understand very well, but I'm not that person.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, you have that sort of obsessive compulsive thing that is essential to be in fashion and.

[John Malkovich]

Yeah.

[Bella Freud]

I remember first meeting you and listening to you describe a few things and thinking, wow, you've got it, you know? And you described your father as darker than I ever realized. And I wonder how. How that manifested.

[John Malkovich]

My father, he was my. My grandparents were supposedly Croatian. I only say supposedly because we really don't know, because I've. I remember my mother once saying to me, after hearing or reading something where I said I was Croatian, half Croatian or supposedly half Croatian, she said to me, why do you say that? You're Montenegrin? I've heard I'm Slovenian, Bosnian, Serbian. Not that I would care. They're all fine by me. When I finally got my DNA done, according to that, I'm 43% Romanian. My father's father sold mining equipment. He was an immigrant, at any rate, to America. He went there, I think, in 1913. I found out when I was already in his 50s that I knew he hated his father, who he said was the biggest liar who ever lived. And I knew that wasn't true because my other grandfather was actually the biggest liar that ever lived. And so I knew that was an exaggeration on my father's part. But he really disliked his father, who was very beautiful. And who I found out in his 50s, listening to an interview with my father on a university radio station, that he was a union thug with brass knuckles and a pistol.

[Bella Freud]

Wow.

[John Malkovich]

And my only real memory of him was they didn't have a tv. I think they would come over to our house, and this is when in America there were three channels. And Lazzie was on Sunday night, I think before the Walt Disney Hour, if I remember correctly. And my grandfather, my father's father on my father's side, was kind of utterly heartless and very sentimental, but only about Lassie. Like, if one of us had fallen off of a building and gone splat, I don't think he would have blinked an eye. But always in the second act of a Lassie drama, Lassie would be in trouble or be being attacked or Lazzie had some very bad luck, what have you. I don't remember. Some disaster befell Lassie, and my grandfather would just. You could see him go into a rage. And he never really Learned English. Lived there, 50s some years. He learned all swear words, only really. And he would watch Lassie, and we got there almost literally be frothing at the mouth, and he would go, those sons of bitches. And, you know, you're just a small child and you think, my God, what's. What's wrong with you? It's a TV show. It's a TV show with a dog, with a collie. Calm down. My father normally was very patient man, Very charming and extremely funny with a great sense of humor. But when he went off, it was best to not not be in the area. And I don't think that had a huge influence in my life, to be perfectly honest, except probably as an inheritance and as a warning. So as an inheritance, it became a kind of product that in a certain way, I was able to make a very good living from. And as a warning, it was just when I was a little fat kid, There was a Halloween contest, and the winner with the best costume got 50 silver dollars. And my father had been an art and journalism major, and, you know, I was fairly accomplished actor when I was a small child and was great at throwing fits based on real or imagined slights or alleged emotions or wants or desires or needs or what have you. I kept whining about this Halloween contest coming up, and now I really very much needed to win the $50, probably to buy candy bars or whatever, something more to eat. And he took it upon himself finally to say, johnny, I'll make your costume shut the fuck up. Shut up. I'll do your costume, you'll win the contest, but you shut up. So he drew really beautifully. He made me a cyclops costume out of an old sheet and some, I don't know, hook or something and an incredible third eye in the middle of my forehead. But I don't think the third eye was for a cyclops one eye. I think it was a kind of message to me to maybe develop a bit of a third eye in the kind of religious sense.

[Bella Freud]

God, that's so interesting.

[John Malkovich]

And of course my sister won the 50 silver dollars with her store bought princess outfit, unsurprisingly, in my hometown, which is maybe not the kind of bastion of taste in art or even fancy dress. But I think it was a kind of lesson to me. As my dad once said to me, I was a baseball pitcher and pretty good one. And my father once said to me, johnny, if you cared about playing baseball as much as you cared about the way you look playing baseball, you would be very good.

[Bella Freud]

But so interesting.

[John Malkovich]

I kind of knew then, yes, dad, but that will never happen, okay? Never forget that. And I don't really think that ever changed. Just why is much harder because I think when we look back at our lives, we misremember much. We underestimate the pulls and tugs and forces that act upon us, including ourselves and our desires and our wants and our needs. But it's hard to say why. But I think I was always like that and I don't think that ever changed at all.

[Bella Freud]

Because your classmate and close friend Russ Smith said you were training to be an ecologist, but you became infatuated with a cool girl on campus who was studying theater. And I wondered if you remembered what she was wearing which attracted you so much to change your career direction.

[John Malkovich]

Yeah, what she was wearing, definitely, but also a. She looked like Carly Simon.

[Bella Freud]

Wow.

[John Malkovich]

And she had a shag. Quite a kind of. In the kind of low spark of high heeled boys style. She was called Joanne Kirkland and she was a potter. And she told me I should take a theater class. It was actually Orland Terp, it was called, because she was taking it. And she was pretty much a hippie dressed girl. So very low swung bell bottoms, wide belt, hippie purse, hippie vest, print blouse. That would be the kind of normal.

[Bella Freud]

Uniform with the kind of Susie Quattro hair.

[John Malkovich]

Exactly.

[Bella Freud]

I love that hair so much. It was so good because I remember seeing you first. I saw you in Burn this at the Hampstead Theater in 92 playing opposite Juliet Stevenson. And I. I remember being incredibly shocked by this thing. Your character said, I'm out of here. And I found that so rude. And the rudest thing you could ever say to a woman. And I wonder, was that supposed to be provocative then or was that just me being totally green?

[John Malkovich]

No. Well, it could have entailed a certain amount of greenness. It's a very New Jersey expression. It's New Jersey Italian? I think so. Certainly common in New York. But I would think it's more New Jersey. It's just, you know, instead of thank you. It was a lovely evening, but I really should be heading home. It's just like, I'm outta here.

[Bella Freud]

I mean, get out of here. It's so normal now. But then it was English people didn't say that. And you're. I mean, you were so wild. It was one of the. I'll never forget seeing that play. And I have never forgotten how I felt when I came out. As though I'd just. The adrenaline was so extreme, as if I was going to pass out. It was so amazing.

[John Malkovich]

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[Bella Freud]

When you starred in Liaison Dangereus, you had a love affair with perhaps the most beautiful woman in the world at the time, Michelle Pfen. I wondered what happened.

[John Malkovich]

It's not something I ever really talk about in. I'd put it this way, Bella. In our work, the work I do, normally you make emotional bonds with people very quickly. That's kind of part of the work. Very rarely, those bonds extend beyond the work. For me, she was someone I valued greatly as a colleague. Was great fun and moving and with me, incredibly fair. And I probably wasn't. I mean, I certainly wasn't. So that's. That's what happens. I think I've learned over the course of my life that a great colleague is actually kind of rarer than anything.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. Gosh, that's interesting.

[John Malkovich]

And when that relationship becomes more than collegial or more than a friendship, even a profound friendship, then, at least in my experience, and might be my particular psychology or stupidity or ineptness or all of the above, then you lose a great colleague. Before we started, I was mentioning Ingovorger, who we both worked with many years ago on Lady Behaven, who I met in 92 doing the second play I did in the West End called the Sip of the Tongue. As an actor.

[Bella Freud]

That's Ingeborg Adapt Kaity, right?

[John Malkovich]

Yeah.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[John Malkovich]

Ingeborg and I are still 33 years now working together.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[John Malkovich]

And have remained great friends and colleagues because there was a line never crossed and a border never crossed.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[John Malkovich]

And that's kind of what I've learned, that when a thing like that happens, it's probably might be not retrievable, because.

[Bella Freud]

We met when the producer, Herky Belville introduced us, and I came to Paris to try and persuade you to direct a short fashion film, and you were in the middle of making John Being John Malkovich. And you said, I can't do this. I don't have the time. And. And you said, why don't you ask Spike Jones to do it? And I said, it has to be you. And then you suddenly said, okay, I'll do it. I've got one and a half days on this date. Be ready. And then there was the storyline, which I'd come with my kind of presentation of tweed and First World War lesbians. And you'd read a story about a Japanese man who'd become obsessed with tsunamis and made himself a pair of rubber underpants that would blow up in case of an emergency, and they blew up on the Tokyo subway. And you. How did you know this was the right Story for a fashion film, I.

[John Malkovich]

Think you never know. Bellow. And it would be lacking in decorum to pretend that one knows. I think you can only have an instinct. You can only have a hunch. And so I looked very carefully what you were doing, what you were designing for. And I read the novel about Jo Cutheart. Oh, yes, it was Carstairs, which was fascinating. But I couldn't see that being done inexpensively and quickly in a way that we could have a little story and yet spend a lot of time looking at the clothes and their texture and how they looked on and how they moved and how they were structured. So I thought of that story, which I'd read some years before in issue of Esquire magazine. And then I thought, this could really, though, be funny that we just have a little Japanese guy who has his little rubber underpants made. I don't know how you made them, but they were kind of fantastic. And I thought we could do this in a day and a half. And if we just have enough women to show up and if they don't mind just goofing around and if we have all the clothes we need and the shoes we need, which seemed all pretty ready when we did it, I thought we could have something that could be entertaining, I think, with all of our films. This is what I said to him, that you were one of the best colleagues I ever had in anything, one of the very best. And that if anybody asks me what is really indicative of your work, meaning in this case, my part of our work, I would say those three films, that actually tells you who I am and. And on a certain level, they couldn't be more girlish in that. They just couldn't be more girlish, I think.

[Bella Freud]

Because I remember you saying. I said, what do you think you know, about the story and the references? And you said, this is what I think. You told me this story, which was two lines, and I thought, well, he's John Malkovich. He must know what he's doing. So, great, let's do that. And it was so fantastic because I think one of my. I love to believe in someone else's vision. And it was just so enjoyable to go through your prism and just, you know, see what happened and your certainty. And then we made three short films together. That one's called Straphanging. And then Lady Behave and Hideous Man. And you did these amazing drawings for the storyboard. And I remember showing them to my dad, and he really admired them. And that's hilarious. I know.

[John Malkovich]

That's too funny. Oh, yeah. Well, those. To me, I could have gone on doing those for a lifetime. Because when I. Each time. And the. All those three collections were very distinct. Very distinct. And like I said about a director or I said about looking at fabric, I'd say that also about a collaborator. They open a world. They don't close a world, they open it. And you look at that opening and you go, look at that. Wow, look at this, huh? When I saw During Lady Behave, which I should, I or you should probably say, the basic plot of that was, I happen to know a lot of English trust fund girls, and some of them are a little bit chaotic and even a little bit piggy. And, you know, they graze in the supermarkets and they do things that you probably shouldn't do. And when I think of, say, Lady Behave, which was essentially a woman who is Ingeborg, my longtime colleague, a woman's boyfriend leaves her, who I think, Belle, you found on the street somewhere in Notting Hill or somewhere, who was not an actor and who was absolutely fantastic. It gave me the idea that their boyfriend leaves them because they are too piggish and the house is a mess. There's spaghetti in the phone book. There are ham sandwiches in the sofa. They pick their nose with chewing gum. It's a whole kind of litany of things.

[Bella Freud]

I know, because you wanted the kit, the telephone to be pulled out of the kitty litter. And that's how we opened.

[John Malkovich]

Yeah, that's kind of. And this is the world that I had the fortune, or misfortune, one might say. But to me, it was a fortune, actually, to know a little bit about. And then that told me what to do and having Ariel d' Ambal told me, well, she'll be the headmistress, obviously, and she's kind of, if you would, the kind of French anti Thatcher or maybe as a headmistress. What you did created my prism. And that's what collegial things create, I think. Same with hideous men. My friend Gary's niece had decided he would leave the theater in 1977 or 78. I don't remember the. It was very early on we established our little theater in the suburb of Chicago. Gary decided he would leave, and he was going to go out to Hollywood and try and, you know, become an actor and make money and have a real living, et cetera. And he got very lonely there because he missed our kind of particular sensibility at Steppenwolf and our particular kind of pathos, or lack thereof. And he wrote an album, which he performed himself, called Hideous man just full of really stupid songs that were kind of pre punk and quite brilliant in a very primitive sort of played headed way. And you. But your idea was kind of 60s, 70s protest movement and some version of that at a kind of remove, let's say. And see, to me that made me think of Hideous Men and how great it would be to have this group of women with very, very disparate backgrounds from very different classes and races kind of stewing in their circle, their particular circles. But they had all united to give an homage to Hideous Men.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, because some of the time I, I was trying to get the storyline from you, but you would always do this thing of disappearing and going. You were filming in Russia or something and I would leave these long messages on your answer machine like. And after about a month you rang back and was like, yeah, everything's fine. But what was good was that it forced me to create a storyline with the clothes. So I made. I. I remember making this jumper with Kick Me written on the back because we had this brilliant actress, Camilla, I can't remember.

[John Malkovich]

Yeah.

[Bella Freud]

And then the other thing I really enjoyed with our collaborations was I remember saying, do you have any ideas for castings? And you said, 40 year old housewives? Fine by me. And I thought, no way I'm going after everyone. I'm using your name. So we got great like pictures with, in, in Hideous man and Anita Pallenberg and Skin from Skunk and Saffron. Yeah, Saffron Barrows and Ariel Donbarrow.

[John Malkovich]

And the girls, I mean the, the, you know, kind of African revolutionary party.

[Bella Freud]

Girls, they were just amazing.

[John Malkovich]

Just the girl who read the dream about Lorne Green, she had a dream about Lorne Green that Lorne Green fed her Alpo, which is a dog food.

[Bella Freud]

She was, she was brilliant.

[John Malkovich]

I don't know what happened to her.

[Bella Freud]

I know she was called Mercedes. I saw her in my local park modeling and went up and asked her if she'd be in our film. And then I remember you saying she's like Robert De Niro. She was brilliant.

[John Malkovich]

Yeah, incredible. What happened to her?

[Bella Freud]

I don't know. I lost touch with her.

[John Malkovich]

They were fantastic. And then there was the girl, the singer too from was not All Saints. What was it?

[Bella Freud]

All Saints.

[John Malkovich]

Yes. All Saints.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. She was amazing.

[John Malkovich]

And Peaches.

[Bella Freud]

And then Ariel was, I mean she was just the star. She was so fantastic.

[John Malkovich]

You know, she gave the thing. What was her poem? It was one about that she did a kind of improv dialogue in kind of about the shoot de valor and this and that she was just incredible.

[Bella Freud]

She bought real kind of theater to it.

[John Malkovich]

Yeah. And was just hilarious. And then James Fox came on this scooter to announce, you know, in the best possible sort of public school way, that hideous man had died in a tragic accident in a trash compactor. And then that was just so dry. No bone in no desert has ever been dry. You know, delivering this kind of very upsetting news, and then he leaves. And then Ariel has her kind of, you know, Edith Piaf moment. That's kind of straight out of Mommy Dearest.

[Bella Freud]

She was so brilliant.

[John Malkovich]

Which was just hilarious beyond belief, because.

[Bella Freud]

Your menswear line, techno bohemian. I remember you drawing all the prints and all these different prints for ties. And it's incredibly rare for a designer to do that. Normally you would buy a print or there's somebody who can do that, but you have this ability to do everything and draw prints out of your imagination. Where did that come from? It's incredible.

[John Malkovich]

Although I didn't do it for decades, my father was an excellent draftsman, and I used to draw with him a lot, as my son drew with me. But I hadn't done it for decades. So mostly I had to erase all the time and redraw. But I never had a shortage of ideas. For instance, some years ago, I was in Lisbon and I had a driver who was hilarious, who had a master's in psychology. And I have no idea why I came up with it, but I referred to Lisboa as Lesboa, not just literally as Lesboa. That idea. This is how wacky I am. But I think. I actually think it's normal. So 10 years later, 15 years later, I wore it yesterday, actually, that notion popped into my head when I saw a woman wearing. I think it was a dress. And it's obviously based on the kind of Empire style, so gatherer here under the breast. And then, you know, it was a long, flowing kind of dress. So that was the idea. But then I said, yeah, but if I took that and I made a man's shirt and I would call it Lesboa, then that would kind of COVID all the bases, and it would just be a little bit shorter. It's too bad I didn't sell any of them. That's tragic, I guess. And it's, as you and I have discussed, not great for your bank account. But it's exactly what it needed to be. I showed you earlier that my movie chauffeur can't really see it here, but there's a lining, little half lining on his Jacket. My first movie chauffeur was a gentleman called Mr. Mudd. He had a big scar across his face and he was allegedly, I have no idea if he really was a convicted murderer. This was in Thailand. And I'm not quite sure what reputation I came into the film with to have a convicted murderer as my chauffeur. But obviously it wasn't a good. And this film was produced by the great David Putnam, who I loved and who taught me so much, David about film and life. Lord Putnam now and directed by roland Joffe. And Mr. Mudd was my chauffeur. And as he was driving, my long time friend Julian Sands and I, we met on that film, were friends forever. I asked Mr. Mott about the murder app and I said kind of something along the lines of yell, what's up, Mr. Motto? What was up with the murder app? And he looked in the rear view mirror for kind of alarmingly long time and he said to me, sometime mid the mud, kill. Sometime mid the mud, not kill.

[Bella Freud]

Wow.

[John Malkovich]

And so when I did, the lining of this, Mr. Mudd came to me. I drew 20 different Mr. Mudd's of varying weights and ages because it's hard to remember what he looked like. And there's the handwriting all around which says, sometimes Mr. Mudd kills, sometimes Mr. Muddy, not kill. And so when I say there is a price that comes for getting, being allowed, being given the opportunity to do what you want, the price was money. Yeah, yeah, okay. But I did what I wanted and I think it was worth it.

[Bella Freud]

Because you've also described yourself as vain, but you seem way beyond that, much more attracted to an outlandish outfit at the expense of any vanity. And I wondered what clothes make you feel really good?

[John Malkovich]

I still probably, I haven't for years and years. I don't wear suits every day at all anymore. It's strange because fashion kind of cured me of that. But I did a. I bought an old church in New Orleans because after losing a mini fortune in fashion, I needed somewhere else to lose money. So I spent a fortune on this church. And my architect said a very curious thing to me one day. He said to me, you do understand that everything doesn't have to match. And I just said, well, that's where you're wrong. This does have to match. I don't want to look at something and not have visual cohesion. It disturbs me. And it doesn't mean I can't go around looking like a slob in my everyday life. If you go to a theater rehearsal you're rolling on the floor all day or something. No real point in wearing a nice suit or if you're on the road all the time. But it's not really that kind of vanity. It's the vanity of what I like.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Malkovich]

Not. Not what I look like or present. It's what I like to see. This pocket is this pocket. It's not another pocket.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[John Malkovich]

Another pug in this would disturb me. It would alienate me. It would, you know, not give me spasms. But that's why looking at fabric never could disturb me, because I'm looking for that one, for the one of the one. Just yesterday when I was looking at Ray Kawakuba's stuff, just thought how good she is. Structure, how serious it's. How seriously it's made, how the form of it. I looked at a Bottega venator thing. Dress, 6, 7 pleats on one side, little thin leather belt, ankle length. Just a perfect thing. A. Is it Molly Goddard?

[Bella Freud]

Oh, yeah, I love Molly Goddard.

[John Malkovich]

A kind of crinoline thing.

[Bella Freud]

The tulle stuff she makes.

[John Malkovich]

Yeah, it just was so beautiful. Talent. And in the case of fashion, likes arresting things. Excellent creation. Provokes dreams, I think.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, it's a really good description.

[John Malkovich]

It's exactly me. I couldn't do without it, really. And if I ever achieve that, that's very nice. Good for me. But I'm very happy when others do it.

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[Bella Freud]

There.

[John Malkovich]

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[Bella Freud]

So I wanted to ask you because I remember soon after we met when you came around for dinner and I remember you saying, oh, I'm feeling a bit down. And. And when I asked you why, you said, they've turned Being John Malkovich into a sort of Bergman film. And. And then I wondered what happened at that point. Did you insist on a certain, you know, I editing or.

[John Malkovich]

I didn't, Bella. I just. I read the script. Script's extremely funny. For years when I was in Hollywood, which I almost never am, but I am occasionally, people would say, why didn't you do Being John Malkovich? Why didn't. And the fact is, actually, I read it. My partner, Ross, I was on my way back to Europe, back to France, When I finished the script on the plane, I called Ross. When I got there, it was nine hours earlier in la. And I said, you know, meet, find this guy, this knucklehead orthis whoever it is, and have him come in and tell him I'd like to direct it and we'll produce it. We had a deal at his studio then called Castle Rock and I'll direct it, we'll produce it if he'll make it about somebody else. And Charlie Galman came in to meet Russ and he, Russ said to him, we'd like to do it and just make it about somebody else. Call it somebody else's name, whoever you want. Then I'd love to direct it, and I don't see why it would necessarily have to change at all. Anything. The jokes would be funny, whether they're about me or really a lot of other people. And Charlize said, no, I don't want to do that. Thank you. But I'm glad he likes it. No, I don't want to do that. I like it like this. So nothing ever happened with it. Then years passed, and Francis Coppola called me and asked me if I would go to Paris and meet a boy called Spike Jones. Meet a young man called Spike Jones. And I said, of course. So I took the train up some weeks or days later, whatever it was, and Spike was in. Happened to be in Paris. And I met with him. And after about an hour, I said, just like, excuse me, are you American? You're an American, right? Because he had this very peculiar way of talking. People would say that about me as well. He always sounded like a kind of surfer skateboarder dude, but with some kind of foreign twist. And he looked kind of Czech, but it turned out, no, he wasn't. And he wanted to do Being John Malkovich, and I really liked him. He eventually got John Cusack and Kathryn Keener and Cameron Diaz and Orson Bean and Mary Kay plays and really fantastic cast. And originally in Being John Malkovich, the part of my best friend was written for Kevin Bacon, who I actually did know only in the kind of. We once worked on a film together briefly. Kevin didn't do it. Didn't want to do it, I think. And so they were casting around for that part. And I said to Spike that I thought Charlie Sheen would be a great choice as my best friend. And Spike kind of said, you're a friend of Charlie Yu. Sheen's? And I said, no, no, I've never been met Charlie Sheen, but I think he'd be great. He's extremely funny, and he'd be great at this role, I think. Fantastic. And so Spike wasn't very convincing. He called me back a day or two later and said, you know, he's in lockdown for. You know, he was in rehab for drugs. And that means the people have to follow you inside the toilet.

[Bella Freud]

Oh, my God.

[John Malkovich]

I said, well, yeah, but, you know, that's okay. So anyway, he. He cast Charlie. We made the film, and that was uneventful, really. I like Spike very much. I. I enjoyed working. The majority of my work was with Keener, who I find hilarious and really enjoyed as a person, and with Charlie, who was great. So I went to See it at the Hard Rock Cafe. Anyway, we sat and watched the film. I don't think I ever smiled once. I don't think I ever laughed. And I called Spike later that day, when it got late enough for him to be up in la, to say, please don't show this film to Gilles, Jacob, if it's accepted for Cannes, I'm not sure he'll ever work again, and please don't show it to him. And I told him. Spike may remember the conversation better, differently, I don't know. But I think I told him, I think you've taken this film and you've made a Bergman film out of it. But it was already a Bergman film, so. And what's gone is the kind of Jewish vaudeville aspects of it that's gone. Nothing is funny. When Keener said to John Cusack in the cut, I saw, so, tell me, are you married? This was John's response, so tell me, are you married? Like, 10 seconds faster. Yeah, but what. What was that? Well, as written, so tell me, are you married? Yeah, but enough about me. Okay? Big difference.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. God.

[John Malkovich]

And I said to Spike, I think you need to cut. My estimation is 21 minutes. I know the film is in there. I know you've made a terrific thing, but you gotta get ruthless now. And he told me, which I thought was hilarious. He told me I was too close to it. And I kind of thought, what are you talking about? Why would I be close to it? Because it has my name. Who cares? This actually has nothing to do with me. It's just called Being John Malkovich. And I'm a kind of figure, as one is in any movie. You're a figure in someone else's dream. That's what you are. But I actually exist for the time being, and I'm not a figure in anybody else's dream. So this is a film, I think, very, very cleverly written and very, very cleverly made, but this isn't it. And about six weeks later, I was doing a film in Luxembourg. He wrote me. He faxed me a note, which I have in my little scrapbook, just basically saying, listen, would you mind taking a look at the film again? I didn't take your advice. I didn't cut 21 minutes. I only cut 19 minutes and 43 seconds, or something like that, that. But would you look at it again? And I wrote back coursing, but of course, I'll look at it 50 times if you want me to look at it. And then that was the film that was released. And I. The Thing I remember most because I only saw it once in Venice where it actually ended up in the film festival because it was rejected by Ken.

[Bella Freud]

God, really.

[John Malkovich]

But I'm glad because then we got the film. We got. And I'll never forget in Venice when the audience kind of comprehended that Charlize Sheen was my best friend and that's the go to guy when you're dealing with a problem involving a coven of lesbian witches. There was a rolling laugh. Bella that laughed. That just lasted 10 minutes. The kind of outrage and the absurdity and the kind of hilarity of Charlie Sheen and I as best friends, that to me was the big difference.

[Bella Freud]

God.

[John Malkovich]

That it retained all the elements it had of the kind of the Jewish, what I call the Jewish vaudeville aspect.

[Bella Freud]

It was terribly good. I mean, it's just one of the great films. And so, I mean, for a supposed independent film, so many people have seen it and it's just. I mean, one of the things, in fact, you mentioned about actors say they need to be able to sympathize with their characters. But you said, I don't feel the need to be sympathetic. But people love you for you. And in spite of how unsympathetic your character might be, and we really want to love you. And do you feel that when you're performing, I mean, even in a film, because there is this will to love you regardless of how demonic your role is.

[John Malkovich]

I know what you mean. I can't say I feel it. What I feel is, I think, I sense that generally people trust me to go as far as I can in presenting something truthful about this person. I think people by and large kind of have a faith. That's what I'm trying to do. I'd say that.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[John Malkovich]

Of course, mostly one fails, but the, the attempt matters to people that you're trying to do something.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[John Malkovich]

And I've always felt that it's a. A great honor, but also a great responsibility and duty to. You play an imaginary character. That's the only life that person will ever have. Those are the only feelings they'll ever be able to express. They don't have a life. They're imagined, imaginary. That's our job, is to make people want to find out what is going to happen to that person.

[Bella Freud]

Gosh.

[John Malkovich]

So for me, it's just the work. That's the work.

[Bella Freud]

And if you fancy someone and don't like what they're wearing, does it kill your attraction?

[John Malkovich]

No. I mean, no. No. I think there are some unfortunate looks, let's say. But I don't. I don't think most people, a lot of people don't care at all. A lot of men don't care. And it depends on the country. I mean, obviously you're more, much more likely to see men, say, better dressed in London or Paris maybe, or Milan or maybe Rome. But that wouldn't necessarily hold true for Leeds or Prato or Marseille. So, no, I don't. Doesn't much bother.

[Bella Freud]

You don't have a. If it's interesting, of a piece of clothing? A woman, I mean, your wife Nicole, always dresses exquisitely. I mean, she has the most amazing taste. But I wondered if there's been anything where you've just thought, oh, my God, that's changed my whole. The direction of my feeling about somebody.

[John Malkovich]

I don't think so. I mean, Nicole was always very well put together, but she almost never shops, ever.

[Bella Freud]

Do you buy her things?

[John Malkovich]

Yes.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[John Malkovich]

And my ex wife as well wasn't much of a shopper at all. Or almost never too. But I grew up picking my sister's clothes. Out of the three little sisters, now only one ironing them, washing them, etc. So for me it was kind of. It was really normal.

[Bella Freud]

Are you a heavy packer?

[John Malkovich]

Yeah, yeah, me too. Yeah, it's a terrible habit. But on the other hand, I did a film this spring, Martin McDonagh's new film on Easter Island. I had to go to LA before, so half of my suitcase was dress clothes because I had a movie premiere and three days of press or whatever it was, blah, blah, blah. That isn't very useful on Easter island. And it's heavy. But, so it really depends. There isn't something I take always, except I take my on sneakers or my very, very old school vans. This one, there's a whole other suitcase that has to do with what I had to bring to Amsterdam and what I'm taking from France. Without that, I just have one suitcase and it'd be kind of 13 kilos, it wouldn't be gigantic. But now it's two at 20 kilos.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[John Malkovich]

And that's a lot to drag around.

[Bella Freud]

Well, thank you so much, Don. Thank you, dear, for being on fashion neurosis. It's been so lovely talking about everything that we've done and listening to what you're doing and all these other things that I didn't know. I didn't know that you'd even read that book about whale Kay. When we first met, I thought you just like plucked this brilliant, succinct notion out of the ether.

[John Malkovich]

No, no. I read the book and I liked it very much. I was fascinated by it. I knew nothing about her. She had an incredible life. Drove ambulances, slept with Marlene Dietrich.

[Bella Freud]

So good.

[John Malkovich]

She was a happening person. Yeah. But, yeah, I love doing those films. It was fantastic. Just love them and love working with you and happy to do this. Sorry it took so long.

[Bella Freud]

No, it's been just such a joy. Such a. Means so much to me. It's great. Thank you so much, John.

[John Malkovich]

Cheers.