← Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud
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- [00:01]
A
This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. Not everyone is careful with your personal information, which might explain why there's a victim of identity theft every five seconds in the U.S. fortunately, there's LifeLock. LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity. If your identity is stolen, a US based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year by visiting lifelock.com podcast terms apply. Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. Marina Abramovic.
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B
I'm really happy to be on this couch. I had no idea what to expect.
- [00:58]
A
Well, can you tell me what clothes you're wearing today and why you chose them?
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B
I look out of the window, British weather, we're really never sure. So I'm thinking to wear something that I'm sure I could be warm, but if it's too warm, that I can also have layers. Most of the stuff that I wear is gifts. I don't buy clothes. This last maybe eight years. People give me clothes. So I wear Versace Dora Terra shirt. I wear Yoshiyama bottle jacket. I wear Ogden Serbia designer skirt. And I wear Massimo Dutti boots. That's it. And of course, the elastic pressure stocking because of my knee operation.
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A
And how about the beautiful black blanket that you've covered yourself with?
- [02:10]
B
You know, this black color also come from my childhood. I was most of the time with my grandmother and she always wear black. In our country, you wear black, somebody die, but always somebody die, so it's always black. So you have women in black, men in black, and then we have communists. And communists wear something like dirty green, gray, really horrible colors. So I think black was the most practical. But I also like to wear red and I like to wear dark blue. And I wear two sometimes summer. Just white.
- [02:52]
A
Yeah, I've seen you in those clothes and they look incredibly beautiful and they enhance your incredible hair. And you've got these great red nails today. It looks very good with all the black. And you're the daughter of two Yugoslavian partisan war heroes who had many privileges because of their status. And you grew up in what you describe as communist drab. And there was money for culture, but not for clothes. Do you remember what clothes you longed for?
- [03:28]
B
Oh, my child was so miserable. I actually come to something we call probably communist ren bourgeoisie. And everybody think I was so privilege, but I actually came from military family and everything was forbidden. I never was allowed to wear anything kind of girlish or beautiful or clothes that other girls was wearing. It was so kind of practical worst thing happened to me on every birthday against pajama heavy flannel with some kind of ducks on it. Mostly horribly pink and three sizes bigger because my mother thick when they wash. They were strict, but they never did. And I always look horrible. And there were just this very interest, you know, the skirts with lots of petticoats under was so, you know, very fashionable. I remember I didn't have one. So I took 10 skirts on the top of each other and I put the other one on the top and it looks so horrible. So you can see all the skirts under. And I remember girlfriends just laughing at me. I always felt outcast. I always felt ugly, unwanted and incredibly, you know, the misfit. So clothes was nothing there. I just practically stopped it that I wear winter, summer, spring, you know, shoes was always orthopedic with this socialist leather. But also my mother want them to last for long. So she will put metal plates on the top and the bottom of the. Of the. Of these shoes. So when I walk, you can hear me like a horse from far away. And then, of course, glasses. I had bad, bad eyes. And the glasses was a thick glass and I tried to break them in every possible way. I put them on the window, across the window, I sit on them or whatever and I will always, always get a new one. Was no escape.
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A
In your memoir, you dedicate it to friends and enemies. And it sounds as though your parents were both of these and both to you and to each other. And did your mother resent your attachment to your father?
- [05:50]
B
Yeah, absolutely. It was so God's childhood. But my theory, the more shitty chances you have, the better artists you get because you have so much material to work out. You know, nobody done anything from happiness so important. So I had plenty, plenty of bad shit and also material to work with. But you know, I love my father, but I really didn't know how unbelievable he was, you know, unfaithful to my mother only when I discovered her diarrhea. Should she die and see how much she suff. If I just read one page of this diary, my relationship with her will be completely, completely different. Yeah, you know, just this fact that she never kissed me. And I asked her one day, I was my 40s, why never kiss me? She was so surprised. She just said to me, I just want to, you know, not to spoil you. And she really didn't. She made me really, really worrier.
- [06:58]
A
Yeah, but I suppose there must have been something within you that could handle that because that type of lovelessness doesn't always result in strength. And somehow you've used it as part of your resilience. It's incredibly impressive. And you talked about how your mother beat you all the time. And even for sleeping messily. And she dressed you young, beautiful girl in the ugliest of clothes. And she was such a powerful woman. And were you conscious of her envy of you?
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B
I don't know. I never really think about that way. But probably there must be truth in this. But I remember that also she provided me with all material to paint. I always have canvases. I always have tickets for the. To the theater, to the opera. I only list the classic music. I never even knew who was Beatles or Rolling Stones till I was 30 years old. I was not able to get out of house till it was ten in the evening. So all these restrictions, thinking backwards, I don't care anymore. I think that really I actually got the unbelievable working discipline and from that whole thing and kind of the feeling for order and organization. And in many way I could never done all this work if I didn't actually get these qualities from her. But from the father, enormous kind of courage and adventure. He really. She really had the courage. But also my mother had courage, except she never talked talk about it.
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A
Yeah.
- [08:54]
B
So all of these things will revive, revile, revive to me much later. But I really felt that I live in prison. I also felt that this family was given to me for some kind of mystical reason. That actually I never belonged there. I never felt home, ever.
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A
Yeah. You said you adored your father because he never beat you. Instead of horrible clothes, he gave you nylon stockings. But when he was exasperated, when you wouldn't learn to swim, he threw you into the water. And you described your weight, your rage, giving you the wherewithal to swim after him. And I think you were very young then, but I wondered how did you deal with needing the person who was abandoning you?
- [09:42]
B
It was incredible feeling of being alone in the middle of the sea. And he didn't even look backwards. And I was drowning, but he teached me to swim. But I actually could swim. But at that time, fear was taking over. So I was just kind of drowning and screaming for him. And he never turned back. And there is a moment of realization. Or I'm going to die, or I'm going to swim. And also incredible realization that, you know, I'm alone and nobody give a shit. And if I don't take kind of control, my destiny and my life, nobody will do. And then came enormous anger. I was so angry. I was really angry. Actually made me. Made me swim and angry make me survive and angry make me not die. That time in the middle of the sea. And then I just started swimming to the boat. And he still was not turning back. He was not turning to me. He only put his hand out when he knew I was close and pulled me out like a little dog. And we never talk about this ever. But something changed in me. I felt yes, I have to be completely independent. I don't need anybody in my life ever. And that something stay with me. All this feeling. Whatever I do, you know, I always kind of. Always kind of know that it's only me.
- [11:28]
A
Yeah.
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B
Who is only me who can make a change or do things. Nobody who ever been around. Ever.
- [11:37]
A
How old were you when that happened?
- [11:40]
B
I was there six years old. Six. But I felt so bad, so alone. I was in hospital because of the bleeding. And for one year they think they had the hemophilia. But actually they discovered it was something called hemorrhabia. It was very long. The bleeding kind of the, the, the, the. The. The symptom. I would just bleed all the time for a long time. When I lost my baby tooth and breathe three months. I have to sit down in the bed because not to suffocate. They put me in the hospital. It was really the most happy time of my life. One year I was around there and you know, everybody was nice to me, bringing me food. It was just something special. Then I got back home again. Nothing changed. And this bleeding problem is really turned to me just two years ago now. I had opposite the same actually the genetic problem, but now with cogulation. So I almost died like two years ago. And they took comas and I had an aneurysm. And then I survived this, but nobody ever survived from that. They told me that I'm actually a real fighter. And then I have to come to England for my show here. And only way to come here is to take a boat. I could not fly for five months. So I stayed in England five months. And then finally I went back with the plane I fly. I actually came with a the queer Elizabeth number two. It was pure nightmare. It was like sanatorium on water. Never again if I have not if I don't. If I have to fly. I will always choose to fly.
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A
Yeah. And you talk a lot about shame. And you said the feeling of shame was like hell in your family. And what did you use as the antidote to shame? To keep your drive alive.
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B
You be to be so left alone.
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A
Well, when I've been reading your book. You refer quite a lot to this feeling of shame. And also I find that that feeling is quite a prevalent feeling in fashion. That there's a sense of shame and how that we're kind of making guises so that that disguise shame.
- [14:23]
B
I was very shame. I was shameful. I was shame. I don't know. I was always feeling ashamed of myself. I felt always overgrown. I was feeling, you know, the Kobe giraffe in the school. My rose was too big on the baby face. I just kind of had a strange feeling about my own body. I was so incredibly shame of me walking that actually if anybody walk behind me, I stop immediately. And just till the person passed by. I could not imagine that I will ever talk publicly anywhere, anybody. And the shame stay so strong. I mean, taking clothes off or any of this stuff was unthinkable. But the moment when I find performers as my actually medium. And the first time I stand in front of the public, this feeling completely disappeared. Because I was there presenting content, my concept, my ideas. It was not about my body look bad or ugly or beautiful or disproportionate. Who cares? It was actually the message that I was giving it electricity of that incredible. The encounter with the public over my own body. I knew that I could never go back to studio, ever. And then also standing in the front of audience and talking. I mean, now I can talk to thousands of people.
- [15:56]
A
Yeah.
- [15:57]
B
And it was really absolutely impossible to take at that time. And I remember later on when I met Charles Atlas and he actually showed me rebowing. The first thing that I had in the. It was somewhere in the bar in New York. I first thing that he provoked me. It was enormous feeling of shame that he was doing something incredibly forbidden and shameful. And that was like unbelievable strength that actually re radiate. And then I really start thinking about showing the most shameful things in my life to the public and sharing this with the public. And in that way completely liberate myself from the shame altogether.
- [16:43]
A
I used to know Leigh Barry as well. And he was so independent of what might be considered things to feel shame about. He reveled in them. And then he made the idea of self consciousness seem ludicrous almost. It was so thrilling.
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B
It was really very strong feeling. I heard with me and him and the Charlie Atlas. We made this insane piece called Delusional where I work with 400 rats life and Lee Bowery made the queen rat costumes for me. Yeah, it was sincere, the whole thing. And it was so unbelievably. Impossible that actually because of sanitary problems and ruts in the building, the theater had only two performances and they will be closed forever. But that was all unbelievable. Great, because it was something that was breaking every kind of barrier or the norms of in society. Yeah, I felt really with the power and free the very fiery things about this rat stuff. We actually want to have stage, metal stage on the angle 45°. And we want to have 400R with the metal shoes, magnetic shoes. So they will stay. They will actually kind of be on the stage. But they could not run. But then we put disco music, so can ds. And then we found one Belgium guy who actually scientists and give the two rats to make the shoes just to try. After two months he came back and said, is it possible? It cost fortune because every rat have different size of his leg.
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A
That's so.
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B
So there we have to work with the rats a different way.
- [18:43]
A
That's such a good idea to have all these little tap dancing rats on stage and.
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B
Oh God. Brilliant.
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A
My God. You're the only person apart from me who I've heard talk about Spartanism and I was obsessed with self discipline as a child. Would you say that self discipline is the same as self denial?
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B
Oh yeah, they're absolutely warriors. You know what the mother say to Spartan men? You come, come back with the shield or on the shield, otherwise never come back.
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A
My God. Yeah.
- [19:18]
B
I mean, that was the kind of attitude with Spartan culture. I mean, we don't have heroes anymore around us. And heroes is something that you really make possible, impossible, possible. It's very important for the spirit of everything of the nature of human beings of our planet. Heroic action. But to be so important the training of the body of the spirits, you know, and this is why, you know, I understood if I want to do what I'm doing especially long duration performance art, I have to really train. So like the artist is present. I literally trained myself like going to the space program one entire year. I only eat food during the night and sleep and drink water and never anything during the day. So that I reverse completely metabolism in order to be able to be motionless for such a long period of time. Or I would go to the times with the not eating for extensive period of time, drinking all the water and doing mental physical exercises. Like one of my favorite exercise is opening and closing the door. I mean, you actually open them extremely, extremely slow, slow as possible. Then you open, but you don't exit. And then you again close the door and you don't enter. Just action of that 3 hours when you do this, 10 minutes, 15 you're muse. After 15 minutes you take your I completely crazy. Well, I'm doing this shitty stuff. But after you decide I'm going to do no matter what and you dedicate yourself to that peer, then something magically happened. The door is not the door anymore. The door is open. In consciousness, the door is open of cosmos. The door become opening of your mind and the door actually turn into here and now moment where time don't exist. It's incredible, transformative, simple action. Open it closes the door. Anybody can do it.
- [21:33]
A
God, that's incredibly interesting. Did you invent that exercise for yourself or do you perform that? I mean, I think it's a genius idea and I want to try it. So I'm very interested. When I was reading your book, I found I had so much identification about your rigor and that's what helps. You know, that seemed an essential thing to be independent of needing anybody when I was a child too.
- [22:03]
B
But to me it's very important to create the first idea and then you write the instruction. And you never try before because if you try before you will never do it. It was too difficult and it was trying at home. Doesn't make any sense. It's important to take the. The concept and do it in the front to the public.
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A
Right.
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B
Because the public energy is the exactly energy you read to actually do something which is like almost supernatural. And that energy is essential. And then you have to absolutely do it no matter what. If you say yourself, I have to do it and only will stop if I lose consciousness or something else happen. But do it to the end. And if you give up, you know what you decide to do before, then you can't do life either. Yeah, you give up too easily and buy this very tricky type of stuff. Mind will always try to stop you. They always make this construction, you know, that's ridiculous. I don't need to do this why I'm doing it. But that's so tricky. But decision is so important. No matter what Bay said, no matter how shitty or difficult is go and do it. And the idea of the end, the realization of that, that succeeding something that that is very difficult. It's incredibly rewarding because when you do something hundred percent is definitely not enough, but 150 this extra energy that may change, but also connect you with the public. You show vulnerability, you show you know the difficulties and then they go with you, they give you this extra energy and then really something happened. The kind of feeling of connection and being in the present.
- [23:54]
A
You seem stimulated by overcoming fear. In your memoir, you described the sense of danger that had united the onlookers in the room. And when I saw your installation at the south plank in 2022, one scene was so frightening, it was almost like being under anesthetic. And what part does fear play in your work?
- [24:19]
B
You know, anything I do before I start, I have enormous fear, anxiety. I have a, I have literally crambles in my stomach. I mostly in the bathroom even I have nothing to do in the bathroom, just sit there. And if I don't have the fear, even public talk, same thing. But if I don't have fear, I will panic that I don't have fear. And that fear something is a kind of, I thought the indication that I am there 100%. The moment I'm in front of audience, disappear immediately is gone. And then I'm just there with them. But there with them. I have to be with my mind and my body there. I can't just be there and my mind is, I don't know, horror have to be there. And the public, they feel the fear, the fear, insecurity, they feel everything. So you really have to, you have to be present for them and then you connect. And then when this connection happen, you maybe sometimes you don't need to do anything. This is the thing, just stand there with them in the space. You can have so much out of this. People always think that we have to do too much. For me, it's all about having, you know, more and more of less and less.
- [25:42]
A
And do you think your near death experiences in your performances were like a proof of worthiness to live? Because to exist as an artist only is a crushing of the soft and needier self. And I wondered how you feel about needs.
- [26:01]
B
You know, this close to dead experience just made me incredibly aware, you know, that how little time we have and how much I have time, I mean, next year I'm 80 and this is really kind of a lot. You know, the one filmmaker was telling me, can you make the, you know, documentary about my life with, for my 80 birthday? And I said, Absolutely not. Eight is too early. I can make with 90. And he sent me this really funny email. He said, nobody ever refuse this proposal as eight is too, too early. And, and he said, I'm 55. How you can think the 80s too early at night? He will be okay. I, I, I just, I just said somewhere recently, I have no time to die. I really don't have time to die. I'm so sorry. It is so much to be done still. And. And that's keep me going. You know, the idea people say, take it easy or. Or, you know, or just retired and I look old by the people my age. Everybody's so unhappy, complaining and just, you know, not producing stuff. And I think as an artist, if you have gift, you have no right of any kind to stop this gift don't belong to you, belong to everybody. So just work till you drop that. And that's what I'm going to do.
- [27:27]
A
You said that happiness is not a creative state. And the designer friend said to me, if we had perfect bodies, we'd never be designers. Would you say happiness is like a perfect body?
- [27:41]
B
But, you know, happiness is state of mind, is not creative. Happiness is state of mind. You don't change. But when you really have something that is, I don't know, terrible happen, disaster, unhappiness, whatever, melancholy, you know, not depression. Depression is disease. This is different. But all of that things is such an incredible learning material, you know, to trust all that and create work that you can, you know, reflect and give to other people. Because we all have three basic fears in our life. Feel of pain, feel of suffering, and that mortality. So that three things are constantly there with us. You know, so the whole art history, you know, everybody from the books, music, theater, you know, the performers, everybody actually deal with that in different ways. And which I do, I stage that. This kind of stuff, and we. I go through this. And if I go through this, you. I become Huber, you know, if I can do this, you can do this and get fear actually free from the fear of pain, of suffering and of dying. And that fear is so important to actually confront and take everyday life like you're the last, because you never know. Death can come out of nowhere, you know, can the asteroid fall on this planet? I don't know. But that feeling that you're always ready and that you enjoy is incredibly important. We lose so much time in bullshits and unhappiness. And why, like, really to be my age right now, Because I feel better than ever before because I have wisdom, which I didn't have when I was in my 20s, 30s, 40s. I suffer, like, for such an idiotic shit mostly, you know, emotional and bad and, oh, God, I'm done with this. I feel so much better now because I know what I should avoid and I know how to enjoy simple things, you know, like lying on this couch right now and look into this invisible camera in the ceiling. And by the way, your ceiling is pretty wide. You don't need to pay this house for at least a few more years. Good.
- [30:14]
A
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- [30:42]
B
All lowercase.
- [30:43]
A
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- [30:47]
B
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- [30:52]
A
You describe yourself as intensely romantic. And you said if you aren't passionate in life, you can't be passionate in art. Do you bring the extremes of your exploration of pain into your sex life?
- [31:06]
B
No, I hate pain. Nobody like pain. I love life. I just my domestic life. If I cut, you know, the kitchen garlic and I cut myself, I really hate it. But this is totally different, you know, to actually stage pain in the front of audience and really get the fear of pain to go liberate yourself through doing it, that's another thing because I really discovered the pain is the door of the kind of secret door. When you open the pain door, actually the pain disappear. But you have to really go for it and go through all that to understand. I mean old ancient cultures was built on so many of the incredible rituals were very painful and also, you know, go to the point of clinical dying. But all this was to really create different state of consciousness to understand world from the other side. And this is why it is so important to understand pain. Not because of my mother or father. That's all, you know, too Freudian, easy to explain. It's a much higher purpose.
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A
And if you fancy someone and you don't like what they're wearing, do you does it kill your attraction to them?
- [32:29]
B
You know, it's so interesting. Take me a long time to get affected by somebody because it's not visually. I made so many wrong choices by visually liking somebody and discovering that they're really, you know, later on it's too late. So now by wisdom, I'm much more careful. I actually make not visual choice. I made the choices and takes time to understand the person, the character, the really goodness in the person. I really like to see the. I need somebody who have the incredible positive energy and truly happy. And this is very rare to find right now with somebody eight years who have all these qualities, who wake up in the morning, go to Run, come home with a fresh cup of tea and is happy. Wow. That's a big, big change in my life.
- [33:23]
A
Yeah.
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B
And. And they really have the kind of feeling of, you know, when you start. If you're with somebody in relationship and you start talking about the relationship, forget it. That's already wrong. You know, if you're in love, love is simple. It's actually. It's just so organic, so easy. And everything else is not right then turn into this. Discussions and complications and gameplay. But actually love is just about simple things. Good cup of tea and breakfast and opening in a window and smiling on the rain or sunshine. Holding hands, making love. Just eating good food, you know, Good food and making love. It's really unbelievable. Settling simple things in life. So difficult. You know, people even don't make love these days anymore.
- [34:15]
A
Yeah.
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B
To me, really, sex is extremely important. Always been.
- [34:20]
A
Yeah.
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B
And you know, when I'm in my age and people talking about, you know, they stop having sex with the 50s already, I could not believe how much waste. Because there's something that, you know, feeling orgasm is such an important moment. You feel life, you feel connected to nature with birds, with the rocks, with the trees, which just everything become luminous and beautiful. So the people discover that more, it will be much less shit.
- [34:52]
A
As it is now, because in one of your performances, you were able to have orgasms in one of your setups. Is that right or.
- [35:02]
B
No, this was a performance that I. Seven easy pieces. Yeah, this piece I. I was actually redoing, reperforming the. The piece of. Of Vito Cochi seedbed in a Google Drive. And actually the piece required masturbation of eight hours under the. Under the stage. And public can just hear my voice on the top. You know, I take this stuff seriously. So it was complicated because it was like, you know, I had to do this seven hours. I think I have more than five orgasms. It was really difficult because next day I have to do performance. It's completely something else. I was exhausted. But this piece with Vito Kochi, which he does the same action also all day long, it was interesting because he was producing something. He was producing seed, and it's called Seedbed. And what the woman produce, also produce something. Produce humility. So I wanted to do the male piece with the female energy.
- [36:09]
A
It's a brilliant idea. You have very great names for some of the performances, like Erotic Panic, I thought was so good.
- [36:19]
B
But they also made another performance in those periods in the 70s when I exchanged the role with the prostitute in Amsterdam. And that was really kind of daring because I find at that time I was 12 years professional artist. I look for 12 years professional prostitute. I asked her to go to gallery at BB and I sit in window and become her. It was pretty scary stuff to do. But this was in 1975, exchanged the role and I did it for six.
- [36:50]
A
Hours in one of those windows along.
- [36:54]
B
The canal with the widows in Amsterdam. Because it was so fascinating. It was first time in Amsterdam and you know, first time to do performance there. This was something for me logical to do because I in the time that my education was always that prostitute is the lowest thing to be. And my mother would just die when she knew that they swore. So all the reason to do it.
- [37:19]
A
Yeah, great. You talked about when you had a Spanish boyfriend, even though he was vain and narcissistic, he showed you about clothes and you bought a Yamamoto suit and you said this suit was a revelation. I no longer felt self conscious. And for me this is exactly the purpose of fashion. To take you out of the self consciousness that you describe about doing a performance. How you stop thinking about yourself. And was that discovery of clothes part of your liberating yourself?
- [37:58]
B
Oh my God, I don't even know whatever it is, life or not, I lost every track. But this was after I walked Great Fall of China and I was really, you know, it was so wrong in these times even thinking about red dead polish like now or the, you know, clothes because then you're a bad artist and you try too hard. But then I just finished two and a half thousand kilometer walking red wall and I done so much artwork. I said, I mean come on, I don't care. And then he, he brought me to the shop and I started wearing his clothes. It was incredible. It was like, wow, this feels so good. And I took high and become high heel shoes and get the jewelry and I went to down the hair and I felt like just in power and I felt really, really first time alive, actually beautiful. That was a shock of my life. And then right now, I mean in my age right now, I done I think 60 fashion covers already. Because every time anybody asks me to do anything is to cover. I mean, you know, the girls that we were 17 and 18. And now I'm doing that because people ask why I'm doing it. Exactly because of my terrible childhood. I love to have the clothes and stay in the front the camera and look how that actually could look good. And I'm enjoying myself and I don't want to deprive myself or that kind of enjoyment. When you come to these photo sessions. They crack some clothes and they like to actually they always try to style me, but I rebel. I love the clothes, talk to me. I just look different pieces of and put together. Always the looks myself.
- [39:51]
A
When your mother died, her diary was full of love and pride for you. And that she'd always withheld that side from you. And she showed love to your brother, but she. She could only show her love for you to other people. And how did it feel to discover that existed so profoundly, you know, the.
- [40:13]
B
Kind of Mediterranean, Slavic, Balkan culture, which is very similar. The brother is everything, the male in the family. I remember when I was born, my father didn't even tell the friends that I was born. But when my brother was born, he was shooting with the pistol in the air and they grilled the pig in the courtyard and they had a huge celebration. It was always about son, always about the male in the family and the mother also. Every time I would do anything or he would do anything wrong, I would be punished for him. Because always presumed this was my idea. First I was six years older. But this was always that kind of thing that whatever I done, it was never enough. There is always somebody better. There was always something that was done in different way. And I never could satisfy my mother with anything I done. Any kind of success, any kind of price, just anything. It's really funny story that I will give my mother my catalogs and she will re edit them by taking all naked photographs of me. So something with 300, 400 pages will go to, let's say, you know, 28 pages. Which everything else was not for her acceptable to show to her friends. But then when my mother died, I find out that everything that I ever done, every exhibition, every, every article in newspaper, she collected and put in a kind of communist perfect order. And I was so shocked about that. Actually. She kept this diary about my successes, but not in front of me. In front of me. There was nothing. Everything was wrong. Everything I done was wrong. Never could be, could be prized in any possible way. And something that I felt such insecurity because of that for a long period of time. And finally when my mother and my father died, I felt free and released. It's terrible to say that about parents, but this is what I felt. And I always like to tell the truth.
- [42:29]
A
I also felt free when my parents died. They died in the same week, very unexpectedly from my mother, but. And even though I adored my father, I felt quite liberated when he actually died. Because it was then just down to me. And I didn't feel I had to check with anybody.
- [42:51]
B
It's very similar. I felt sense of freedom, really freedom because so many things I've been doing, it was so unacceptable. Also they've been criticized in Communist party meetings about education. And I was kind of threat to society, threatened by professor of art. I just always was looking how I can make something new, different and meaningful. And there was an opposition of the art that was in that time acceptable in the communist country. So the feeling of black sheep not fitting was so strong constantly till I really actually left and find out there is a performance families in the world that I can connect. And that feeling that I belong to somebody, you know, that it was really overwhelming. But also my kind of connection to my students teaching was so important and to see how they can develop their success became like my success. I'm so proud. And then, you know, from not having any kids, I end having hundreds of kids everywhere. We should take care of them. And you know, they come with me very young and my public is super young. I have now I just went to see the Check Home Cat Blanchett. I appear four kids different from different parts of the. Of the. Of the. Of the. Of the theater. And they came to me to tell me that I changed their life and say, how old are you? It's 14. I mean, come on, how I can change the life. He's only 14. But the idea that really kind of connect with me was so important. And I take care of that artist and they really give me their love. We have kind of fair exchange. I give them my experience, but they give me sense of time. They live. And then we all having this incredible kind of good time. And I just don't actually even go out or see anybody from my generation. Everybody's 20, 30 years younger now. Constantly, you know, that's kind of. It's not the problem. It's just I feel life with them.
- [45:17]
A
Yeah. And you experience two huge heartbreaks and abandonments. First with you, Lai, and then with your ex husband Paolo. And you lift these men up, but the work is all yours. And you said you thought you brought the pain of the absence of your mother's love to all your relationship. Do you think that ever leaves?
- [45:43]
B
You know, when we split on Greater China, we are done with our relations. We had everything. Right now we are making. Actually opening my show at Ulay show for the first time Ljubljana on our birthday. We are born the same day, the 30th of November. Now this year in Ljubljana in Slovenia. And he's dead already since four Years, you know, I think if he was live, we would never had actually the show together. But he's the president widow. We could work. And that was really wonderful. They can make. We are making that. And the book is called Love, Hate and Forgiveness. It's all three things in the relationship that we went completely through. And when finally we forgive each other, it's easy to say, you know, but when you really truly forgive with your heart, it's unbelievable. Release of the old negative energy and positive energy. Enter you. And with Apollo, he really broke my heart. It was really something much more serious. I could not eat, I couldn't sleep. I just cried all the time. And finally one day I wake up and I stopped crying. Okay, now it's over. And that was that kind of feeling of absolutely unfair abundance. I could not deal with this. And I would say we'll never fall in love again. And then I came 70. And then I met my now recent partner with 70, but he's 21 years younger. And that was like. I thought I was so worried about age. He doesn't worry about age. So I stopped worrying too.
- [47:28]
A
Yeah.
- [47:28]
B
And it's not about marrying or having, you know, family together. It's just kind of being together on everyday base. Like is the last day. And that works. But then I have to do something about all this, you know, story with the broken heart. This is why I made opera. You know, the seven deaths of Aria colors. Because she really died from broken heart. In my case, I almost die, but the work saved me. But her work didn't save her. So I made this whole story of opera and woman dying. Opera, opera. We have to really admit the bad dying. Opera doesn't look as good as a woman. So spectacular woman died. Tears, you know, crashing cars. Oh my God, you can work so well with that. So I done all dying. I done, you know, the. The heartbroken, the knifey suffocation, the job. The tuberculosis. Name it went through all of them dying over and over and over again. Always been killed by Virus Defoe. He's a great killer and real friend.
- [48:41]
A
Yeah.
- [48:41]
B
On the top of all, I think.
- [48:43]
A
If you had to go, Willem Dafoe would be the way to leave the land.
- [48:49]
B
He'll be over and over and over. Then in this theater, I played the ghost of Maria. Because of course, and. Or any voice, but I play her ghost.
- [48:59]
A
Wow. And after the stratospheric success of the artist is present at MoMA. You worked with Bob Wilson on the life and death of Marina Abramovic. And he said, I Like your tragic stories, in a certain way they're funny. And we have to stage your life comically to reach the public's heart. And I've been listening to you read your memoir on audio, and you're sometimes very funny, maybe without always meaning to be in. It's incredibly endearing.
- [49:36]
B
But, you know, when I start working with him, he really was funny. He said, I'm definitely not interested in your art because everybody know I just want to make tragic stories funny, because tragic, when it's funny, hits you more then when it's just tragic. Showing tragic just become kitsch.
- [49:54]
A
Yeah.
- [49:55]
B
And he was so right in that. And then, you know, every time we rehearse, I cry, cry, because they're so sad, terrible stories. And then, you know, he said to me, why you cry? Public have to cry, not you. And then after rehearsing and playing this piece in Europe and in America, I completely free from this, absolutely free. And I remember one psychologist, you know, woman, very famous, coming to my dressing room in New York. She said to me, marina, what you done now on this stage is you save yourself 25 years of very expensive. The psychotherapy. And it was like, I don't have any more regrets. All these stories don't affect me anymore because I share them with everybody. Yeah, and the moment you share with everybody, everybody find themselves in the stories. Different names, different situation, but we all have the same stories. So my biography became biography, everybody else. And it was so freedom from that. Really, really free.
- [51:03]
A
Well, I got some of that from. From reading your book. I found I had certain things that I identified with you. Your strictness with yourself. I mean, my childhood was nothing compared to yours. But I had echoes of how you dealt with it, with the, you know, the rigorousness, the sort of suffering, you know, pushing and the Spartanism. And you talk about the three Marinas, the warrior, the Spartan, spiritual one, and the bullshit one. But this is also the lovable one. And does it feel like you can love yourself as this Marina? Because I feel I can love you as this Marina as well as the others.
- [51:49]
B
But, you know, to love myself took me a long, long, long time. I'm not still great in it, but, you know, getting better. But it's so difficult. It's so incredible. Always looking for perfection and always finding imperfection. And then really, to me, I don't know, to me was so important. This whole idea that it's not just to become good artists, that you have to become good human being and good artist, good human being really counts. So I take everybody around by, By. By friendship with the people. Really great artists and really horrible human beings. I kind of am always avoid them. I don't want to. I don't anybody don't have right to put your spirit down.
- [52:34]
A
Yeah.
- [52:34]
B
That's so important. It's a rule, actually.
- [52:37]
A
Yeah.
- [52:37]
B
Then you. That if you're really surrounded, you know, physically and mentally with positive energy, it's, It's. It's a great feeling to actually to. To enjoy life in different way. And this is also wisdom. I was not like this. I was, you know, so many times through my work don't see well and abused and not paid at all. And it's just. I was so kind of ashamed to fight for my rights. I will have exhibition in Italy and they sell the entire show and they never give me a penny. And I was actually how you call the so shame. But really timid to even ask my own rights. And this time is gone now. Absolutely all of this is gone. But also these people from my life. From my life are God. It is so. It's like really this. What you. When you get to the old. Old and sick is horrible. But old and. And healthy with wisdom. That's fine. This is why I'm trying to be really as much as possible right now. And with all these difficulties, I just kind of take them and, you know, stand up and go. I mean, my book is called Walking through the Walls. Every time is some wall I walk through and there is another wall and I walk through and this goes on. You know, you never. It's always some wall somewhere to cross. You have to make enormous effort in something that you're really doing. And then you. You can't do anything anymore. Then it's a moment. Let it go. You have to just let it go. Universe will take care. There is moment that you know you can't do anything more. But you always have to get to that point that you do everything as possible before you say, okay, now I have to let it go. But when you let it go, miracle happen. And that's, you know, really wisdom. You can only take if you really have full life. And I really have full life. I have to say that, you know, there is this wonderful statement that we maybe finish this interview that I love from Gandhi because Gandhi says so simple. Gandhi said before they ignore me, then they laughed after me, then they fight me and then I win. That's really at the moment exactly my life. Yeah.
- [55:07]
A
Well, thank you so much, Marina, for being on fashion Neurosis. It's been.
- [55:12]
B
I love lying on your couch. I only have one complaint. If you do this when I'm writing culture to be higher that I really can't stand up without effort, I will.
- [55:26]
A
Make sure that that's going to be perfect for you. And I look forward to 90 and being back here with you.
- [55:34]
B
Bye.