Fashion Neurosis with Mia Khalifa

Summary

Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud: A Deep Dive with Mia Khalifa

Episode: Fashion Neurosis with Mia Khalifa
Release Date: July 15, 2025
Host: Sarah (Bella Freud)

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1. Introduction and Clothing Choices [01:05 - 02:24]

The episode begins with Mia Khalifa discussing her outfit for the podcast, highlighting her appreciation for both contemporary and vintage fashion pieces.

• Mia Khalifa: “I'm wearing brand new shoes from Amina Muadi... a vintage Jean Paul Gaultier dress. I chose it because the colors seem to fit your mid-century modern home... It matches the shoes perfectly.” [01:22]

Sarah compliments Mia's glasses, noting their stylish appeal and functionality.

• Sarah: “My perfect kind of 70s style, glamorous intellect era. I love them. They're gorgeous.” [02:14]

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2. Identity and Personal Growth [02:24 - 05:05]

Mia delves into her personal evolution, particularly regarding her name and public persona.

• Mia Khalifa: “As I've grown older, I've become more comfortable with Mia rather than the other way around... I have accepted her more.” [02:37]

She reflects on her childhood fascination with Betsy Johnson's flamboyant designs, contrasting it with her own androgynous style at the time.

• Mia Khalifa: “Growing up, I loved Betsy Johnson's kooky, crazy, and girly designs, but my actual style was very androgynous and tomboy.” [03:08]

Mia shares a formative experience of cutting her hair to emulate punk rock icons, leading to a lasting impact.

• Mia Khalifa: “I cut my hair into a mop like Billy Joe Armstrong from Green Day... I had to live with that haircut until it grew out, which was traumatizing.” [04:30]

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3. Childhood Experiences and Cultural Pressures [05:05 - 09:20]

Discussing her school days, Mia highlights the cultural disconnect between her and her immigrant parents, emphasizing the role of food as a social currency and the ensuing isolation.

• Mia Khalifa: “We weren't allowed to speak anything but Arabic at home... at lunchtime, no one wanted to trade snacks with me... I had a lot going against me.” [05:32]

She recalls the disapproval she faced when expressing individuality, such as vandalizing her new Vans shoes to reflect her personality.

• Mia Khalifa: “I convinced my mom to get me a pair of checkered Vans and then vandalized them with meaningful doodles... This cornered a lot of disapproval.” [07:45]

Mia elaborates on the pressure from her cultural background to conform, viewing deviation as a betrayal of values.

• Mia Khalifa: “There is a lot of pressure in many cultures to conform and follow the line of your family... Anything outside is seen as a black sheep.” [08:22]

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4. Navigating Desire and Celibacy [12:03 - 16:35]

Mia discusses her journey towards celibacy as a path to self-discovery and setting personal boundaries.

• Mia Khalifa: “I'm on a journey of celibacy... I've found peace in it... It makes me feel like I finally know who I am and what I want.” [14:05]

She contrasts desire with curiosity, explaining how the latter drives her more meaningfully.

• Mia Khalifa: “Desire is carnal, but curiosity pokes something deeper... I've learned that curiosity is more erotic and meaningful.” [13:19]

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5. Impact of the Fashion Industry [37:05 - 39:42]

Mia shares how her involvement in the fashion industry has liberated her from self-imposed restrictions and societal judgments.

• Mia Khalifa: “The fashion industry has saved me because pasties aren't chic. Nipples are chic... I've grown into myself and my comfort.” [38:15]

She credits influential artists like Linda Sterling for inspiring her artistic freedom and redefining her relationship with her body.

• Mia Khalifa: “Meeting artists like Linda Sterling and seeing how she uses her body as a vessel for art has been so inspiring and freeing.” [40:44]

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6. Overcoming Shame and Embracing Creativity [43:27 - 47:50]

The conversation delves into the debilitating effects of shame, especially within stringent cultural frameworks, and Mia's path to overcoming it through creativity and therapy.

• Mia Khalifa: “Shame is the most powerful human emotion. It will cripple you. It's the worst thing in the world.” [44:03]

She discusses her experience with EMDR therapy and the importance of reconciling with past cultural pressures to maintain healthy relationships.

• Mia Khalifa: “It's a difficult mindset to grow out of and even look back on. You have to work hard to reconcile to maintain relationships with those who inflicted it.” [46:32]

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7. Autism and Self-Expression [48:20 - 50:54]

Mia opens up about her autism diagnosis, elucidating how it shapes her communication and social interactions.

• Mia Khalifa: “Autism affects my behavior and the way I speak... My facial expressions can be harsh or judgmental without intending to.” [48:20]

She reflects on how language has been her shield since childhood, especially as an immigrant navigating a new culture.

• Mia Khalifa: “Words are power. The more words I knew, the more I could express myself and understand others.” [52:30]

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8. Jewelry Brand "Shaytan" and Artistic Vision [55:38 - 60:59]

Mia discusses the inception of her jewelry brand, "Shaytan," emphasizing the cultural significance and personal meaning behind her designs.

• Mia Khalifa: “Jewelry has been a part of Middle Eastern culture for special occasions... I wanted to create something that lasts and carries meaning beyond mere aesthetics.” [56:27]

She speaks about overcoming imposter syndrome with the support of her business partner, Sarah, and her commitment to producing jewelry with integrity.

• Mia Khalifa: “Making jewelry is the greatest joy in my life... I want to make them with integrity and ensure they're received meaningfully.” [58:48]

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9. Conclusion [61:58 - 62:45]

The episode concludes with mutual appreciation between Mia and Sarah, highlighting the healing and empowering experience of the conversation.

• Mia Khalifa: “This was so healing and beautiful... This was my favorite thing I've ever done.” [62:17]

• Sarah: “It's so interesting to talk to you. Thank you so much for being on Fashion Neurosis.” [62:40]

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Key Takeaways

• Fashion as Identity: Mia emphasizes how clothing and fashion are extensions of personal identity and tools for self-expression.

• Cultural Pressures: The episode sheds light on the challenges of navigating cultural expectations and the impact of shame on personal growth.

• Self-Discovery: Mia's journey towards celibacy and self-understanding underscores the importance of setting boundaries and prioritizing personal well-being.

• Artistic Liberation: Engaging with the fashion industry and influential artists has been pivotal in Mia's liberation from self-imposed restrictions.

• Mental Health Awareness: Discussion around autism and therapy highlights the significance of mental health in personal development and interpersonal relationships.

• Entrepreneurial Passion: Mia's dedication to her jewelry brand, "Shaytan," reflects her commitment to creating meaningful and culturally resonant art.

Notable Quotes

• Mia Khalifa: “Shame is the most powerful human emotion. It will cripple you. It's the worst thing in the world.” [44:03]

• Mia Khalifa: “Desire is carnal, but curiosity pokes something deeper... I've learned that curiosity is more erotic and meaningful.” [13:19]

• Sarah: “My perfect kind of 70s style, glamorous intellect era. I love them. They're gorgeous.” [02:14]

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This comprehensive conversation between Bella Freud (hosting as Sarah) and Mia Khalifa offers profound insights into the interplay between fashion, identity, cultural pressures, and personal growth. Through candid discussions and reflective anecdotes, listeners gain a deeper understanding of how external expressions like clothing can mirror and influence our internal landscapes.

Transcript

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[Sarah]

Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis, Sarah.

[Mia Khalifa]

Thank you.

[Sarah]

Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?

[Mia Khalifa]

Yes, I can. I guess I'll start at my feet. I'm wearing brand new because I'm on your white couch, but my absolute favorite shoe designer, the queen of the party shoe, Amina Muadi. And then going up, I'm wearing Chaitan anklets, which are my designs. And then I'm wearing a vintage Jean Paul Gaultier dress. And I chose it because the colors seem to fit your mid century modern home. And it's very comfortable and it matches the shoes perfectly. JMM glasses, I believe.

[Sarah]

They're so beautiful. Thank you.

[Mia Khalifa]

Thank you. They have a bit of a tint on the lens and I like it. It kind of diffuses light.

[Sarah]

It.

[Mia Khalifa]

It makes it very comfortable to. To wear all day.

[Sarah]

My perfect kind of 70s style, glamorous intellect era. I love them. They're gorgeous.

[Mia Khalifa]

Thank you.

[Sarah]

And your name is Sarah and you're also known as Mir Khalifa, who is extremely famous. And is it necessary for you to separate yourself from such a public Persona with. With a different name?

[Mia Khalifa]

I don't know about necessary, but I think that as I've grown older, I've become more comfortable with Mia rather than the other way around. It was a bit of a clash in the beginning where when I harbored a lot more shame, I. I would kind of twinge at Mia. But now I've accepted her more.

[Sarah]

When you were a child, was there a garment that you obsessed about, like a thing that you long to wear?

[Mia Khalifa]

Everything in the Betsy Johnson store, that was my era. Growing up as a preteen and a teenager, that was her prime. Every time we would walk by that in the mall and I was allowed to look in the store and pick one thing a year, usually around my birthday. Gosh, she would make the most out of this world. Just kooky, crazy designs that were so girly. I loved her so much.

[Sarah]

So you were kind of going for the girly. That was what you wanted to sort of embody at that point?

[Mia Khalifa]

Yeah. But funnily enough, the way I actually dressed was very androgynous and tomboy and I even chopped all my hair off at one point.

[Sarah]

Really?

[Mia Khalifa]

In the middle of the night? No.

[Sarah]

What was that? What were you. Because I always think there's a. There's this point kind of. I mean, for me, it was like when I was around 8, where I really had to align my identity with. Through what I wore. And I didn't have many things. And there was. I became fixated on a particular shirt and what was going on in terms of your identity at that point.

[Mia Khalifa]

I was being introduced to punk rock.

[Sarah]

Oh, my God.

[Mia Khalifa]

And I was in love with skater boys. And I don't know why I thought I had to dress and look like one, but that's kind of where it came from. I wanted to look like Billy Joe Armstrong from Green Day.

[Sarah]

Oh, my God.

[Mia Khalifa]

So I cut my hair into a mop like his. And my punishment when. When everybody woke up the next morning was that it wasn't getting fixed. I had to live with that haircut until it grew out, which is kind of traumatizing.

[Sarah]

That's so mean.

[Mia Khalifa]

It is, isn't it?

[Sarah]

I think children's punishments are just so.

[Mia Khalifa]

I know. I'd rather have gotten beaten. No, I'm kidding.

[Sarah]

And when you were at school, you described your mother wanting to give you Lebanese snacks, like Lebanese cheese for your snacks, and how mortifying that was. And snacks are such a currency at school. And did your mum have some understanding of your need to fit in?

[Mia Khalifa]

None whatsoever. There was no understanding of that because there was also a huge culture shock on their end. They were. I mean, they were children, essentially, who got married and had kids and then emigrated to a new foreign land for a better life. And they were terrified of losing their identity, so they tried. We weren't allowed to speak anything but Arabic at home when we came home from school. Yeah. Which I'm grateful for because now I still speak it. But I also. I also had no value in school. At lunchtime, no one wanted to trade snacks with me. And I was already an esaul, and I already had a weird haircut and a bit of an accent. I had a lot going against me. And the snacks did not help.

[Sarah]

No, the snacks are disasters. I had that, like, hippie snacks that I used to go under the table and quickly eat them, but, you know, it was. You had nothing to barter with.

[Mia Khalifa]

Yeah, exactly. And it also. I mean, now it smells delicious, but kids in school are mean, and they would make fun of how it smells. And now it breaks my heart to think about. Oh, I'm gonna cry. To think about bringing back home the bag and the food still being there and her. And her asking me if I. If I didn't like it or if I wasn't hungry. And I would get upset. Why there wasn't something in there, like an uncrustable or something in, like, high in saturated fats. And now I'm like, am I stupid? I was eating organic Mediterranean food, like, home cooking, every single day and wishing I was eating processed, fake government cheese.

[Sarah]

I totally identify. I would have longed for some of that tinned things, you know, anything. And. Yeah, it just. It meant so much more than food. It meant some sort of respectability in society for me, anyway, of, like, the whole thing of fitting in is such a big deal.

[Mia Khalifa]

Exactly.

[Sarah]

Yeah. Because. And do you remember what the first thing you wore was when you actually wanted to invite disapproval?

[Mia Khalifa]

Oh, my gosh. I love that question. I think it was. I was able to convince her to get me a pair of checkered vans. And then I went to school one day, and I had all of the white squares I had done something different to. With my pen and. Or with a permanent marker. And that. That cornered a lot of disapproval because those were $40 vans. Those were brand new shoes that I had vandalized. And.

[Sarah]

So cool.

[Mia Khalifa]

I know, I know.

[Sarah]

But what did you write? Like, just things that.

[Mia Khalifa]

Meaningful, like GD in one square. And then I would color one in. And then I would do, like, just lines in one. Just, you know, just doodling in them. But I was discouraged from. From kind of showing personality and individuality when I was younger. There is a lot of pressure, I think, in. In a lot of cultures, like in Indian and Latin and Middle Eastern cultures and a lot of Asian cultures to conform and be similar and follow. Follow the line of. Of your family and kind of do everything to appease that micro society and the community that you're. That you're in. And anything outside of that is seen as. I mean, as a black sheep. And they got a Diet.

[Sarah]

Like a betrayal of values, really.

[Mia Khalifa]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sarah]

Yeah. God, that must have been so hard because you have such a fantastically charismatic personality, and it's also one of your. It's so appealing and, you know, endearing as well.

[Mia Khalifa]

Thank you.

[Sarah]

I know I had. I didn't have that because of. My background was different from yours, but I. When I tried to emulate my rebellious. My mother's rebellious position that she'd taken, I was, you know, punished and criticized and misunderstood. So I found it really confusing, like. Well, she did that, and she's told me about that, and yet I'm doing something similar, and there is no tolerance whatsoever. They didn't want to listen at all.

[Mia Khalifa]

I think I just felt my. My ulcer grow because I'm very terrified of. Of what future I have coming for me. I fear that all of the lessons I have to teach will be then used against me as a. Well, you did this. Why is it not okay if I do it? And when you're young and your frontal cortex hasn't fully formed, you don't understand that an adult telling you what not to do isn't them trying to control you. It's them trying to guide you. And no one under the age of 27, 28 will ever see it like that.

[Sarah]

But I think the only thing that my mother forgot to do was explain that. Just acknowledge my kind of, you know, my questions and my sort of disobedience instead of slapping it down because she had told me how brutal her father had been with her and how, you know, they really. She'd run away from home because she couldn't. It was intolerable. But then when I did minor things, she was so freaked out, she just didn't bother to tell me, like, look, you know, I get it, but do it like this, and so don't worry. It's gonna be okay.

[Mia Khalifa]

Yeah. I feel like we've done a lot more work on ourselves than our parents have. Yeah. We've learned how to. And I mean this in a good way, manipulate a situation so someone doesn't feel like they're being controlled. Like, we know. Yeah. Yeah.

[Sarah]

But even just you, you know, this listening is such a big thing, and I think that's what. One of the things with kind of learning how to do things differently is learning how to listen and not, you know, that. That kind of reaction that creates misunderstanding.

[Mia Khalifa]

I have to work on that.

[Sarah]

I think you'll be okay. You're so. You know, you're so. You seem so kind of eager to understand things. And it's the willingness that makes everything. I, I think anyway. How has being the target of so much desire made it difficult for you to know what you actually want?

[Mia Khalifa]

I think it's the other way around. I think that I spent so much of my younger life not knowing what it was to be desired that I was willing to, I was willing to give myself to people who were only giving me validation in exchange and not a safe place or, or anything other than something as temporary and fleeting as that. I think that as I've grown older, desire doesn't really mean anything. I think curiosity means a lot more than desire. That's, that's what moves me when someone is curious, not when someone is like just desires me.

[Sarah]

Yeah, because it's, it's such a seductive thing, you know, and it, curiosity is.

[Mia Khalifa]

So much more erotic than, than desire. Desire is, that's human nature. It's, it's, it's carnal. But curiosity is it, it pokes something in here. And it's a very clear difference when someone is interested for one reason or another. And I've learned that as I've gotten older. The discernment is, I mean the frontal cortex is a major organ muscle, whatever.

[Sarah]

It is, because you've talked about your insecurity and low self esteem and making decisions from that perspective and what would you have done instead with your current self knowledge?

[Mia Khalifa]

Do you think I would have protected myself more and I would have stood up for myself more and I would have advocated and I would have, I would have been a lot more. Not everyone deserves you. And yeah, I, I, I'm on a journey right now of celibacy. And I've really, really, really found peace in it. It's so comforting and it's so, it's just so nice to know that I personally am in a place where my standards are set in stone and they're unwavering. And it just really makes me feel like I finally know who I am and I finally know what I want. And unless that's met, I provide everything for myself, including a climax.

[Sarah]

That's incredible. I mean it's, it's an amazing thing to hear, hear you say that because it's like, you know, it's such a powerful thing to be desired and it's very, it's very confusing as well because it's very difficult not to resp. Well, I'm only, you know, speaking for my, not to respond to that because it's such a kind of, it feels like love at the time. It's so so softening and, and then to take that out of the picture and explore what you're actually kind of responding to. I mean, you know, most people, either they become monks and nuns or they wait until midlife crisis hits them and TR. Try that out. It's very adventurous. And also, I mean, you have a lot of courage with your huge amount of intelligence. And I wonder where does that come from, this kind of single mindedness? But it's not just single minded. It really is courage. You've gone through a lot, I think.

[Mia Khalifa]

Well, first of all, there's more power I found in, in withholding myself than in giving myself and using that as, as a ploy or, or relishing in that feeling of, of what it feels like to be desired and to give into that. I've found a lot more power in, in, in, in the, in the word no and in that. But I think, I think the. I, I don't know. I truly believe that knowledge is power. And I, I hope that I don't come off as single minded. Although I am extremely stubborn and very difficult to, to be convinced out of my stance on a lot of positions. But I do pride myself in also being able to listen and, and understand when I don't have full knowledge of something and could be wrong on something. And then I'm curious and I want to know and I want to see if, if my mind can be changed. And I think that that's, that's really exciting and fun and, and what makes human interaction so. Like, those are, those are my favorite types of conversations with people where we're kind of having a back and forth of our, you know, defenses of our, our point of view. And it's done in a way where we're not defensive, but we're both curious. And I think that that comes when both parties aren't that committed to whatever.

[Sarah]

They'Re talking about, but more easygoing in the subject matter.

[Mia Khalifa]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sarah]

I mean, for me, single minded is a huge compliment.

[Mia Khalifa]

It is.

[Sarah]

I pay it to you as that.

[Mia Khalifa]

But what do you mean by single minded?

[Sarah]

I suppose I mean like, oh, I.

[Mia Khalifa]

Think I'm narrow minded.

[Sarah]

Oh God, no, no. So for me, single minded is originality and adherence to something that, you know, an idea that you believe in. So it can be quite a lonely place as you're often up ahead. So it is.

[Mia Khalifa]

But it also feels like that's where integrity lives and that's where you need, you need to stand on your values and your, and, and your boundaries. That's, that's where that's where that is.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Mia Khalifa]

So I am. Thank you. Thank you for, for seeing that. Even like you've. We've known each other for very little. And to say that about me, I, I'm very. I take that as a huge compliment that that's what I give off.

[Sarah]

No, you do.

[Mia Khalifa]

Thank you.

[Sarah]

And what about the culture wars does. Do you find lack of comprehension comes from older people? Because you seem to be creating a different language for young people to use around these issues of self worth and kind of being single minded.

[Mia Khalifa]

I think the world would be a better place if everyone born after the year 1985 went to therapy. Unfortunately, we can't make that happen. So all we can do is. Is hope for this generation.

[Sarah]

It seems like more people do go to. I mean certainly I would advocate anyone born before 1985 go to therapy because young people seem more interested in understanding or knowing themselves in the way different from my generation where you know, no one did unless you were sort of in a. Sort of under a psychiatrist or something.

[Mia Khalifa]

Do you think it's because the age of the Internet has made us all a little bit more self indulgent and therefore more introspective?

[Sarah]

I don't know if it's self indulgent. I. It's like a good idea is more obviously a good idea and so it's norm. And maybe my generation who grew up where my parents generation had experienced the second World War and everyone had been traumatized and no one went to therapy and my generation were like, we cannot be like that. We have to be more understanding or we have to understand how to not be like our parents in some ways the ways. But yeah, it seems much more accepted in young people to. And appreciated by. By each other. Is that fair to say?

[Mia Khalifa]

Completely. And I think that we're also encouraging our parents generation to go to therapy or at least therapizing them and instilling change in them and pressuring them and forcing new thoughts and ideals into their minds and, and putting them at least in front of them. And I think that what's worked is, is also kind of removing yourself from. Because you. There's. There's a huge trend. I don't know how it is here with, with we have in America Thanksgiving every year and every year on that time there's always a trend on the Internet of here I come into Thanksgiving to ruin. To ruin dinner by asking. By asking who they're voting for, asking about their political stance or asking about this. But there's always those instigators and that's a huge trend in this generation and it's beautiful. No one was doing that before. No one, no one was speaking up at dinner tables and kind of calling them out, calling them out for their hypocrisy or their pain bigotry or any of that. And it's just so close minded and, and wrong. So I, I love that this generation and I'm talking about Gen Z, not even, not even mine because that's not how it was when I was growing up going to Thanksgiving. It's, it's the younger generation that's brave enough and does not care. They are so firm in their beliefs. It's so beautiful.

[Sarah]

Yeah, it is incredible seeing some of the kids on TikTok just being so matter of fact about things that are considered radical in politics but that it's so sensible, you know, and the way they speak is, is just completely normal. Yeah, it's exhilarating to see that and.

[Mia Khalifa]

I guess that's the catch 22 of the accessibility to information but it's also leaves you susceptible to misinformation.

[Sarah]

Yeah, of course. Is there someone who's influenced your idea of glamour? Who do you find glamorous?

[Mia Khalifa]

I find my business partner and manager and best friend Sarah Byrne glamorous. Like she's glamorous because she will go on holiday with a carry on and a pair of sweatpants and the clothes she's wearing on the airplane and two pairs of shoes and one of them is the Birkenstocks she's wearing on the airplane and the other is a pair of bedazzled mew Mew mu mules, which is how we call them. And she will make, I kid you not, 17 different outfits out of those things. Every. I never see her not looking glamorous even if she has just woken up in her pajamas. She always adds something to, to her outfit whether it's a shoelace or a ribbon or whatever it is. She's just so, I, I love, I love the way she thinks and it's inspired me so much in the way that I dress.

[Sarah]

How about your packing though?

[Mia Khalifa]

No, my, I still have four suitcases everywhere I go. I, I'm, I'm trying to learn.

[Sarah]

But yes, I'm a heavy packer.

[Mia Khalifa]

Me too.

[Sarah]

I just gave up. I, I, I remember going to live in the Caribbean for a few months when I was 18 and half my suitcase I put all my records in there.

[Mia Khalifa]

I didn't have a record for that.

[Sarah]

I just couldn't. Oh my God, that's so funny.

[Mia Khalifa]

I travel with incense and books and end up never touching them, but it comforts me to know that they're there.

[Sarah]

Yeah, I know. I think I just decided I can't travel late, so I'll just take everything. And that is really. It's kind of liberating. So.

[Mia Khalifa]

But you know what your home is. I. I think. I think I love seeing it on your series because it reminds me of it kind of. It's a mausoleum of your personality and your life. And I guess that translates into the way you pack. You can't leave without those things and those reminders and the ephemera of all of that stuff. So there's nothing wrong with that. You could travel with your emotional support. Ninja air fryer.

[Sarah]

I know my ninjas always, like, when I'm feeling really defensive, I send a friend a picture, an emoji picture of a ninja. And that means I need a hug. And it's so good, because I have to be very clear about my kind of offhand behavior, which actually means I feel terribly isolated and I need comfort, but I can't say it.

[Mia Khalifa]

So what's your love language?

[Sarah]

I don't know what that means, really. What do you mean? What does that mean?

[Mia Khalifa]

The five love languages is Physical Touch, Words of Affirmation, Quality Time. What are the other ones? I'm blanking on the other ones. But mine. Mine is physical touch.

[Sarah]

Yeah, I think mine is, too.

[Mia Khalifa]

Even if I'm. Even if we're sleep. Like, I get very. I can't sleep and cuddle. But at the very least, my pinky will be on your back. Like, my finger will be touching. My toe will be touching the back of your calf.

[Sarah]

I know. I think that's probably mind, too. A hug is everything.

[Mia Khalifa]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Words are just too easy to play with.

[Mia Khalifa]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

And so a hug is unmistakably a comfort gesture. So. Yes, I'll remember that. If you fancy someone and don't like what they're wearing, does it kill your attraction to them?

[Mia Khalifa]

Well, it depends. It depends on if I don't like what they're wearing because it's just mismatched and haphazardly thrown together, or if I don't like what they're wearing because it doesn't feel authentic to them.

[Sarah]

Have you got any, like, pet, you know, things that, you know you'll struggle with if you see them on someone you like?

[Mia Khalifa]

Too many logos. Too many logos. Or like, a walking billboard, like, your hat and your shirt can't have a phrase on it. Pick one.

[Sarah]

Right. And what happens internally Is it, is it just like a, like a reversed magnet? You feel yourself retreating a little bit?

[Mia Khalifa]

Yeah, a little bit. Because I don't know, I feel like. I feel like when people don't dress from a place of authenticity, it reveals an insecurity or maybe that they're still trying to find themselves. And then I have a very like, natural instinct to run from that because people who don't know themselves will not bring you peace in your life.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Mia Khalifa]

They'll wreak havoc on you and absorb you and your personality.

[Sarah]

And that's so interesting, actually, because I, I think there's certain things I find kind of off putting.

[Mia Khalifa]

But what?

[Sarah]

Well, my latest thing is a bad T shirt on a man.

[Mia Khalifa]

What is a bad T shirt though? An ill fitting one or just an old one?

[Sarah]

No, an old one's kind of fine, but like a bad neckline, the sleeve length at the worst place. Tight in the wrong places.

[Mia Khalifa]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

And really that sort of the, the kind. Maybe arrogance is too strong a word, but just putting this thing on that shouldn't be worn. I sound so exacting and it is, but I just noticed someone who I quite like wearing this appalling T shirt. And I think it was partly because it made him look as though mummy had dressed him. So I was like, I've got to get out of here. This is, this is just so bad what's happening to me. And I had to keep like resetting myself.

[Mia Khalifa]

Like, you know, I just got shivers there. Oh my God. There's nothing scarier than that. Because you know what? If you felt that way, he probably did consult his mom or she gifted it to him and he doesn't know any better or have his own, like, you know, thought processes to, to choose something different or to discern whether it's right for him or not. If she says yes, then he would wear it. And maybe a sales associate he fancies suggested he wears it. She wanted to meet her quota that month and he just bought it and wore it because he doesn't think twice about what he's putting on. That says a lot about someone.

[Sarah]

Well, yeah, it does say a lot, but sometimes it says more about you. My own interpretation, like, how can I make sure that I don't get close to someone. Oh, the T shirt is a disaster. I've got to leave the country, you know.

[Mia Khalifa]

Okay, now are we strategy? Your avoidance.

[Sarah]

I think it kind of comes out in places like that. I'm only just putting these things together at this late stage. This is a paid advertisement from BetterHelp. Stress has become a huge player in our working lives. Stress may be a commonly used word to describe how we feel, but the feeling is still such a powerful influence on our behavior. It feels constricting. In the things that make me feel better are walking, listening to audiobooks, or having a perfect cup of coffee. Therapy is the thing that has helped me. Alongside these activities, knowing and being able to trust another person's perspective when my mind is whirring is a huge relief. With over 5,000 therapists in the UK, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. Unwind from work. With BetterHelp, our listeners get 10% off their first [e-mail] neurosis that's better. H E L P.com neurosis.

[Mia Khalifa]

You know, I have found that lately I've been asking myself, because I've kind of been questioning, is my celibacy a choice or is it a sub. A subconscious thing where I'm actually getting in my own way? And when I tell my friends about why I'm no longer interested in someone that, you know, I start to get to know, I. I ask them, like, am I. Am I being too picky? And they're like, no, you're just. You just know what you want and you have good judgment and you can see 10 steps ahead. And you don't need to pass all of these other pit stops of red flags to get to that point. You can already see through all of that. You. Because everything we do, everything we wear, everything we say is a very revealing thing about us, way deeper than what it actually is, surface level. And I think a lot of people wouldn't get it unless they've done work on themselves and unless they have that discernment in life. And you clearly do. The T shirt is not, it's not a sticking point. Like, they say that shoes say a lot about somebody, and that's not in a. In a judgmental way about, like, a tattered pair of shoes. But it's, it's, it's very. Everything is very revealing. Everything. Every choice we make is reflective of who we are and what we stand for. So, no, you're not judgmental.

[Sarah]

I am judge. I know. I totally own it.

[Mia Khalifa]

And I, I have to. I have to give you a pass because I have to give myself a pass.

[Sarah]

Yeah, I'm.

[Mia Khalifa]

I'm projecting over here.

[Sarah]

I mean, I think I'm interested. Before, my father was very judgmental, and it was so thrilling to see someone who was that certain That I thought I'm going to be like that. But then it became a bit of a trap and a habit. So now I, it's, it's a lot better. And I, I don't think it's a bad thing to be judgmental, but it's boring if you're, if you get stuck in a position that you'd like to reverse or come out of in some way. So I mean, I suppose it's entertaining. He. He would make these damning comments about people. It was very funny. But I mean, back to the cell celibacy subject, I think, I think it's a great way to find out about when you've been very sexualized. And it often happens, you know, when people have experienced sexual abuse as children, that it's sort of a familiar place and it's a very kind of terrifying familiar place. So to experiment with a bit of abstinence is very adventurous and just cool. I mean, you're young, you've got plenty to play with. And I think it's great out there though. It's rough, but it's like responding to what you know. The thing you said earlier about curiosity being the thing that you find exciting and interesting and alluring and it's a way of finding out something to take away the thing that gets in the way, which is what's supposed to be it, but you're taking that away so you have more, more vis. Visibility of something that you don't even know what it is, but you're on. On the journey to find out is exactly very roundabout.

[Mia Khalifa]

The impetus for it was actually a breakup. And after that I really, really, really wanted. I want the next person that I'm with. I want to choose to give myself to them for a completely different reason than I ever have chosen to give myself to anyone before. And I think that's what's going to make it so special.

[Sarah]

That's very moving. It's so impressive. I, it's really impressive to hear that. And I. Do you feel that part of freeing yourself from being sexualized is part of your interest in fashion and clothes and jewelry and you know, actually that's, that's.

[Mia Khalifa]

Funny you say that because I had a very restrictive mindset about my body before I entered the fashion world this much. I, I wanted like a very unhealthy amount of control over who can see my body because I feel like, I feel like the 21 year old version of me, it is, is able to be viewed by anybody who, who wants to see her. And, and I Wanted an unhealthy amount of control over, over who can see me to the point where I would never even. I would never show my nipples anywhere. I would, I would. I was so insanely protective over, over that. And the more I've been in the fashion world, the more I've been on. On sets and, and around other models and around other women and around people who just see the human body as art, not as something to be sexualized. It has freed me so much. It has made me. It has made me so much more open and, and able to just be in my body, like just as flesh, just as anyone else. That has been absolutely life changing. I felt like before I was in. I was kind of in a prison that I, that I built for myself. Like I, like I wanted to spite people and, and not give that up. And I didn't know that in. Instead of, instead of having control, which is what I thought I was doing, I was actually limiting myself and I wasn't free and I subconsciously felt trapped. So the fashion industry has really saved me because pasties aren't chic. Nipples are chic.

[Sarah]

It's amazing. I. It's so interesting that that would be the reverse of what would be assumed. But there is something freeing the body as this tool for showing clothes and for emphasizing something or suppressing something to do with w about this garment and projecting a character really, because it's so interesting that clothes can give you this freedom instead when you. They can free you from self consciousness. I really do believe that completely.

[Mia Khalifa]

Three years ago, I never in a million years would have, like, I would have shut down at the idea of being nude again. But now I see so much beauty and artistic freedom and liberation in the idea of being nude under a piece of beautiful silk or, or lace or, or even just being nude. It feels. I, I think I've also grown away from my shame and away from my trauma and grown into myself and my comfort. And I've been able to kind of shut out the people who view me in a sexualized way and, and be able to continue on and do what I want to do because it makes me feel free or beautiful or like I'm getting a message I want to get across because that's, that's also what your body is for. And meeting people like the incredible artist Linda Sterling and seeing how, how she uses her body and how she champions other women's bodies and, and how she protects them while also showcasing them is so inspiring and so freeing. I, I was. I would not have been in the same place. Had I not been introduced to people like her or like, I went to an exhibition with. With Sarah. I'm not speaking in third person. I'm talking about my friend, I think. Carolee Schnee.

[Sarah]

Oh, yes, yes, Schneiman.

[Mia Khalifa]

Yes, yes, exactly. Oh, my.

[Sarah]

She. Yeah.

[Mia Khalifa]

Changed my life, that exhibition. Like, I just got full body chills even saying that.

[Sarah]

And.

[Mia Khalifa]

And thinking about it. She made art out of her tampons. She made art out of her sexual conquests. She kept a diary of every single one. The sound that they made when they finished, the size, the amount, the texture, the viscosity, every microscopic detail. Her. Her body was her vessel for. For. For everything. Like, even. Even down to, like, swinging herself from a piece of rope and free bleeding onto a canvas. Like, it's. I know, I know. Like, it's. It's extreme. But seeing. Seeing an extreme and seeing something like. Like Linder's work and finding my space in that, in between has been. Has saved me.

[Sarah]

That's so amazing because I saw. I. I saw an exhibition of her work at the Barbican.

[Mia Khalifa]

That's. That's the one I went to.

[Sarah]

Yeah. And. And then her covering herself in paint and rolling around.

[Mia Khalifa]

Oh, that's what it was. Yeah.

[Sarah]

It was so. It was just so magnificent. But it was really good, too.

[Mia Khalifa]

Yes. And every medium, too, from, from, like, art to collage to video to blood. Like, everything. And it really opened my mind to the possibilities and the unlimited, like, ways that we have of expressing ourselves. I never thought that that would be allowed, let alone showcased at a place like the Barbican. And I was so grateful to see.

[Sarah]

That it was so good. And it's interesting, you talking about shame as well, because that seems like the antithesis of shame. Yes, but it's like a rehabilitation of our notions of shame. Because, I mean, I was interested in the things that you've said about shame, because I found it to be the most paralyzing and debilitating condition which poisons every action. And. And I wondered when you'd first become aware of. Of shame.

[Mia Khalifa]

Very early. Very early. And I think I have to go back to the cultural aspect of cultures like the Latin cultures and the Middle Eastern cultures and the Asian cultures that are so heavy on inflicting shame for stepping out of. Of what's expected of you. And I think I've learned so much about how I would want to raise kids from that, because shame is the most powerful human emotion. It will cripple you. It will ruin you. It will. It's It's. It's debilitating. It's terrible. It's. It's the worst thing in the world. And to experience something like that at an age like 5, 7, 12, it's very hard to work back from. Like, I didn't even know that that's what I was harboring until I started EMDR therapy.

[Sarah]

Yeah, I know. I. I remember going to therapy and the therapist, it was a group therapy. I was probably about in my late 20s, and she talked about shame, and it was like a light bulb all the. I had no idea that's what it was, but I suddenly realized, oh, my God, that's what it is. It's just that thing that makes you do the opposite of what you want to do.

[Mia Khalifa]

Exactly.

[Sarah]

And it makes you not be able to protect yourself because you're rooted to the spot. And I feel like it's like a transgenerational thing as well. Because if I think about, you know, what my mum went through and my mortification about myself and, you know, so when I, you know, and I've heard you talk about it and I, you know, it's particularly impressive and touching and moving to see how you. You're breaking out and what you. How you've talked about creativity being such a necessary part of this, you know, describing these artists and what you do in your work and your jewelry and it's really something.

[Mia Khalifa]

Thank you. It's. Yeah, it's a very. It's a very difficult mindset to grow out of and to even look back on. And. Yeah, that's something that you really have to always work hard to reconcile if you want. If you. If you want to maintain relationships with the people who inflicted that on you. I think.

[Sarah]

Yeah, it's a. It's a really weird one. And I mean, I noticed, like, even in the way I designed clothes, I would. I wouldn't dare do a big slit up the side because I'd think, ugh, I don't want anyone to see me. And then I think I thought, you know, this is so restrict. This is restricting me so much, and it's taken so many years, and I just, you know, it's like a curse. It really is. And then. But it is possible, you know, I. I don't have it anymore. I mean, it's taken a hell of a long time, but I never thought it would go. Just this feeling of humiliation without anything happening.

[Mia Khalifa]

Oh, my gosh. That's ex. That's such a great way to put it. It's a constant feeling of Embarrassment and you don't know why.

[Sarah]

And you, you've referred to yourself as autistic.

[Mia Khalifa]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

And I wondered whether this, does this diagnosis help to compartmentalize trauma or how does it relate to your sense of yourself?

[Mia Khalifa]

It's not necessarily about trauma. It's more so about my current, like my, my behavior and the way that I speak and the things that I say before without realizing that, oh, that's not going to be, that might not be received the way I intend for it to be received. Maybe, maybe they feel like that's harsh and they usually do.

[Sarah]

And maybe that's just because you're really intelligent. Yeah, I think it is.

[Mia Khalifa]

Aren't. Aren't most intelligent people autistic? Aren't most geniuses? No, but it's also, it's also in behavior, like, like maybe not being as, maybe not behaving in a way that, that, that would be expected of you or being as consoling as you normally would be or kind of giving somebody advice when what they need is comfort. Or, or maybe it's I, I, mental, mental tics, physical tics, things like that. That's, that's my, my hold up usually.

[Sarah]

Right.

[Mia Khalifa]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Because when, when I was watching your interview with Louis Theroux, and at one point he said, what's that face? And then you said, oh, it's my autism. But I looked at your face and it seemed adorable, you know, like you were having quite a natural response to some funny thing that he'd said.

[Mia Khalifa]

My face? Really, like, that was a huge fighting point in my last relationship. My facial reactions to things. And I've been told in couples therapy that my facial expressions and my reactions are visceral and they're, they're, they, they're very cutting and they make somebody feel less than or, or they can be belittling or they can be extremely judgmental. And that's, that's what, like some like to, to somebody who I'm doing an interview with, they can be quirky and funny, but to somebody who's in my life, they can be really, really harsh and, and not sensitive. And that's, that's where it kind of gets in my way.

[Sarah]

Right. So it's a container to kind of quantify something.

[Mia Khalifa]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Yeah. Because you, you said, I'm so scared of everything, yet people are scared of me. I don't see myself as a threat. I just see myself as a loudmouth, annoying little girl. I mean, I remember when I was a teenager dressed in punk clothes and being so shocked by how frightened Adults were of me. And because you're very quick and articulate, I wondered, has language always been at your disposal?

[Mia Khalifa]

It's been my shield from a very young age. Well, from growing up, not come. Coming to America and not speaking English and not having a way to being misunderstood is a very isolating feeling. And when you don't have the words to properly express yourself, it can feel like trying to run in a dream. Like no matter how hard you try, it's not happening and you feel frustrated and you don't know why because you can't control it because you're in a dream. But when I feel like I learned at a very young age that words are power. And I wasn't allowed to watch much tv. I wasn't even allowed to go outside very much. Like our bedtime was 7:30, even in the summertime when the sun would set at 9pm and the only thing that I had was books. And not even a lot of books, only a like approved books. And one of them was the dictionary.

[Sarah]

Oh my God.

[Mia Khalifa]

One dictionary in Arabic, Arabic to English and one Marianne Webster's dictionary. And those like I, I felt like a kid in a candy store with that book. I felt so powerful. Every day when it would be, it would come time to, okay, finished homework, showered. I have this little bit of free time to read. I would feel so excited to go and learn new words because a lot of the words in there are also salacious. And I felt like I had a secret from my parents that they didn't know about that they couldn't take away from me. So interesting because if they knew what was in there, then they would ban me from watching it. Like some of the shows that I wasn't allowed to watch. And I also found that the more, the more, the more words I knew, the more I understood. And the more I understood, the more I was able to express myself. And it just opened so many doors for me from a very early age. And even shows like, like, like the Colbert Report and, and Saturday Night Live. Like there was very nuanced jokes in there and a lot of like big words that were used that I feel like I otherwise wouldn't have understood if I wasn't immersing myself in honestly a very, a very autistic special interest which was the dictionary.

[Sarah]

That's so clever. I love that. That's really good. Oh God. Well, I mean I think as a young woman to have language, it's. You don't have physical power. And I remember thinking that when I was 12, I've got to make these words like arrows, you know, they've got to really be able to hurt people.

[Mia Khalifa]

Yes.

[Sarah]

Because I felt like that I didn't have any agency, so I needed this arsenal of weaponry and it was language.

[Mia Khalifa]

And also the only time I. Growing up in, in high school and in middle school, I was also extremely overweight and the only brown girl in. In my school county. I grew up in a very predominantly white part of the suburbs of Washington, D.C. and Maryland. The only validation I got outside of my body and having breasts was from teachers when I was able to talk to them and, and, you know, just have back and forths, whether it's about social studies or with my English teacher or whatever it may be. But I found a lot of comfort in, in adults. And I also found that the key to speaking to adults is being able to understand what they're saying without them having to speak down to your level. Yeah, it make them more comfortable with you. And. Yeah, that was. I guess that kind of stuck with me.

[Sarah]

Yeah, I know. It's a joy as you get older to be able to say, what does that mean? Because you don't feel humiliated anymore.

[Mia Khalifa]

I love when I get to say that. I love when. And I love even more when somebody is excited to explain something and not not, you know, diminished, like, put you down for not not knowing it. And that's, that's also where I found so much, like, safety in adults who are willing to teach me things and who are willing to indulge my curiosity.

[Sarah]

And you've talked about the importance of creativity and how much it settles and energizes you. And, and you have a jewelry brand, shaytan. And why did you choose jewelry from.

[Mia Khalifa]

A very young age, like, from being a baby? That's been how you show love, but not in a materialistic way, but in a way that says, this is going to last past all of us. And I give it to you, I pass it down to you to pass down to your next ones and to have forever. So jewelry in, in the Middle east is very, very, very like a, a part of the culture. So I always grew up with, like, that being like the thing you get from your great aunt or your mom or, or whoever it may be for very special occasions, not just birthdays, but for like, milestones. Like when, when I, when I started my menstrual cycle, I got a beautiful pair of ruby earrings. Like, just, just like little, little studs and like that, that's, that's how the mindset in Middle Eastern culture is like, those are graduations and, and engagements and like, things like little milestones like that, a great report card, things like that were. Were rewarded with jewelry, like birthdays and stuff. Yes, but it was so much more meaningful than that. And I mean, also, body adornment is. I mean, it started in the Middle east and in Southeast Asia. And yeah, even. Even before I could find body jewelry, I was putting together, like, going to jewelers and putting together necklaces or men's bracelets that could fit around my ankles and customizing things. And when I came to the decision that I, like, I want to create something, and I was trying to decide what it was, things that aligned with me were lingerie, because that's something that I also have a huge passion for. What I'm wearing underneath, what you can't see, the perfume I'm wearing, things like that. Like, I didn't know if I wanted to make scents or lingerie or jewelry, but jewelry just felt so much more intimidating because it's such a precious metal.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Mia Khalifa]

But when I expressed that to. To my business partner, Sarah, she kind of took me out of that imposter syndrome and said, you learn. You. You. You have a vision. You know what you like to wear. You clearly have taste and, and creativity in that field. You don't have to sit there and make the jewelry. That's not your job to do. And that really opened. Opened my mind and made me feel so much more comfortable. And making jewelry is. Is the greatest joy in my life. I feel. I still feel a little bit of imposter syndrome around it, but I'm very much working on that. But it's. Because it's so. It's so precious to me. Like.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Mia Khalifa]

And I'm very, very connected to rocks.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Mia Khalifa]

And that's what, that's what, like, diamonds and emeralds and. And rubies are. At the end of the day, they're very precious rocks. And I. I just feel so much responsibility in making things, and I. I just want to make them with so much integrity and. And I hope that they're received in the same way. There's a lot that goes into choosing where I make the jewelry and where it's produced and who it's produced with and what types of things. Like, there's. So there's. I see people doing it in ways that, like, they're producing a lot, but I'd much rather do it the way I'm doing it because it's so much more precious to me than just production and selling something.

[Sarah]

It also seems fitting that you choose the intimidating thing because you're a person of courage, and it's how to exercise it and show that everything you're capable of. Which seems. Which seems so much.

[Mia Khalifa]

Thank you. I never thought about it like that.

[Sarah]

Was it your mother who gave you the ruby earrings that is the most beautiful.

[Mia Khalifa]

Well, it was a family gift.

[Sarah]

Yeah. Cause that's such a moment of kind of embarrassment as well. And to be kind of welcomed into the adult world in such a kind of, you know, kind of.

[Mia Khalifa]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

I just.

[Mia Khalifa]

Looking back on it. Yeah. I'm actually very, very surprised because considering everything else around, like, I. Yeah. I'm very, very grateful for. For how that, like, I got flowers that day, too.

[Sarah]

Wow.

[Mia Khalifa]

And it was just such. Yeah. There was no. If. There was a lot of shame around a lot of other things. The music I chose, the, like, everything. Every aspect of my personality was criticized and nitpicked, but when it came to that, I was so protected, and I'm so grateful for that.

[Sarah]

Yeah. Well, you're clearly. He's clearly kind of given you this strength, which is what you're so admired for. And it's so interesting to talk to you. And thank you so much for being on Fashion Neurosis. It's just been a joy.

[Mia Khalifa]

Thank you so much for having me. This was. This was so healing and beautiful. These episodes are. They're so comforting for me, and I didn't think it would be this healing for me to actually do it. This was. This was my favorite thing I've ever done.

[Sarah]

Well, it means so much to me, Sarah. It's wonderful. Thank you for that validation.

[Mia Khalifa]

Thank you.