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- [00:00]
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- [00:43]
Bella
Yeah, sure thing. Hey, you sold that car yet? Yeah, sold it to Carvana.
- [00:49]
Nick Cave
Oh, I thought you were selling to that guy.
- [00:51]
Bella
The guy who wanted to pay me in foreign currency, no interest over 36 months. Yeah, no. Carvana gave me an offer in minutes, picked it up and paid me on the spot.
- [01:02]
Nick Cave
It was so convenient. Just like that. Yeah. No hassle? None. That is super convenient.
- [01:08]
Bella
Sell your car to Carvana and swap hassle for convenience. Pick up. These may apply. Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. Nick Cave.
- [01:33]
Nick Cave
It's. I'm. I'm happy to be here. Very happy to be here.
- [01:36]
Bella
Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these clothes?
- [01:41]
Nick Cave
I chose the clothes because they're the clothes I always wear. The. The suit is by Bella Freud and, well, as you know, you've been making my suits, my day suits and stage suits, actually, as it turns out, for, I don't know, years now. Right. Do you know how long?
- [02:12]
Bella
Must be about eight years. Yeah, I think.
- [02:17]
Nick Cave
And. And very. I mean, it's all I wear essentially. So I. I always wear a suit. When I wake up in the morning, I put a suit on. I don't like differences in things. So it's always the same cut of suit. It's the same one that we've been making now for years. And so I'm wearing that. One of those, one of many I have now. And a shirt that's made by the same guy who makes all my shirts, who's made my shirts for years. AJ And a tie from a vintage.
- [03:04]
Bella
Tie because you wear quite. You use the word conservative, that for a certain type of condensed look. But I've always noticed that your shoes are always the wild card. You never can. They always have this kind of cowboyish, this swagger, the. The Thing I always associate with how you walk like you've just swung open the door into a saloon.
- [03:36]
Nick Cave
Well, the problem is with shoes that no one makes good ones. In my view, it's an absolute disaster to try and find a decent pair of men's shoes. Women's shoes are an entirely different thing and there's the most gorgeous shoes in the world out there. But men's shoes, the kind of shoes that I like, are very difficult to find and extremely particular about the shoes that I want. Thankfully, some years ago as well, Gucci made me a pair of shoes under my direction and makes them for me and just sends the same pair to me when, whenever I need a new pair, rather wonderfully free of charge. So. So it's, it's good for me. So the sh actually never change, nothing ever changes. Essentially I just have the same look day in, day out, which, you know, suits me fine.
- [04:49]
Bella
And what was the first garment that changed the way you felt about yourself when you noticed the connection between what you were wearing and what it gave you, how it made you feel?
- [05:03]
Nick Cave
Well, I was the third boy, so I tended to get hand me downs. We grew up in a country town. My parents didn't have a huge amount of money and so I wore a lot of hand me down clothes for my brothers. But at some point I think I was. Or something like that. Well, well, a couple of things happened with clothes before that that was sort of little mini disasters. But the first time I really coveted an article of clothing deeply was in the little country town that I lived in. There was one menswear shop and in the window of the shop there was a pair of brown woolen herringbone style flares. And it was the first pair of flares in the country town that I grew up in. And I. And no one wanted them, no one even knew what flares were essentially. But I loved these trousers. And eventually I wore my mother down and she bought these trousers for me and I loved them like deeply. And the problem with them though was that they were incredibly itchy. They were unbelievably itchy woolen trousers and almost unwearable as a consequence. And so there's a sort of slightly tragic story attached to this because I wore them to the school, a kind of a mixed school dance in the local school hall when I was about, I guess, 11 or 12. And because they were unbearable, the, the itchiness was so awful, I would wear my sister's tights underneath the trousers to stop the itching. And I wore them at this at this, this dance. And, and I told my best friend that I had a pair of my sister's tights on. And he then told the, he then told his best friend and eventually this sort of went around the, the, the, the, the event and a bunch of guys got me in the. When I was in the, in the bathroom and attempted at least to take down my trousers and reveal the. No, the women's tights underneath which I, I was wearing women's tights or girls tights, and they didn't actually get them off, but they had a shot at it. And so I don't know what that did to me. But, yeah, that was the sort of what happened. But I, but I love those, I love those trousers. And that set off a kind of this feeling of seeing things and sort of coveting them and them being slightly out of my. That I was unable to get them and, and there were a lot of clothes that I would see. And you know, my mother. It took a lot of persuading for my mother to buy these sorts of things for me.
- [08:48]
Bella
Yeah, because your mother, you told me your mother gave you one really good bit of advice, which was head high and fuck them all, which seems like.
- [08:59]
Nick Cave
That's right.
- [09:00]
Bella
It worked. Did she embody that as well?
- [09:04]
Nick Cave
She, she protected me. She was always on my side all through my school days and into my adult life, regardless of how glaringly obvious it was that I was at fault at any given time, you know, as in a fair amount of trouble as a teenager with the police and so forth. And she was always, she was always there for me and on my side. And, you know, she would mumble, you could. She would mumble you bloody bastards and stuff like that under her breath when she was sort of, you know, getting me out of, you know, when I'd been arrested for something or something like, she, she was always there for me in that respect and kind of right, right through to the end, you know, she, she served as a sort of safety net. I think if you got that fundamental love as, as a child and support this, you can, you can do a lot and survive a lot as a consequence. Even if it's, even if it's just a sort of kind of subterranean feeling of security. I always had that with my, with my mother.
- [10:34]
Bella
Yeah, I had that with my father as well. Even though I didn't grow up with my father, I felt his, that he was an ally. And yeah, what you're describing, I, I agree it makes you able to cope with these attacks that happen later in Life, whatever they are.
- [10:55]
Nick Cave
Yes. And. And. And maybe similar to your father. It's not like my mother showed it particularly. She wasn't. I mean, she. She was not. She was a warm individual, but she was. She was very stoic. Didn't go in for a lot of, you know, you got on with things in an Australian kind of way. You know, they used to call Australian women the. The little Aussie battlers, they used to call them. She was a battler in a way, in the sense that she was quite awful things, tragic things happened to her, but she just, you know, carried on. And it's not that she required that from us essentially, but, you know, it was. There's something to be said for that sort of stoicism, I think.
- [11:58]
Bella
Yeah. Was your father similar or did he have a different.
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Nick Cave
Yeah, my. My father was much more flamboyant.
- [12:06]
Bella
Oh, really?
- [12:07]
Nick Cave
Extremely flamboyant character. Sort of arch. Archetypal 70s man. So he was. He was involved in the arts and he dressed not dissimilar in a way to the way that I dressed for a while as a. As a young man, which was 70s shirts that were sort of unbuttoned. He was always wondering whether he should buy a medallion or not. He was. He was this. This kind of. This kind of character. He was like a typical arty sort of an Australian, not quite something. Bit off about the whole thing, but a very intelligent, cultured sort of man who knew his stuff, you know, because.
- [13:07]
Bella
You wear suits all the time now, pretty much most of the time, but you used to wear. You used to have more of an undone look, you know, more wild. And that was. Did you look at him for any of those pointers or.
- [13:22]
Nick Cave
Not really, but it did coincide, really. Now I'm thinking about it, but, you know, the sort of idea that I have a kind of a retro look, like a 70s retro look, but I actually am from the 70s.
- [13:40]
Bella
Yeah.
- [13:41]
Nick Cave
You know, the look that I had was. Was not initially, when I grew up, when I could establish a kind of look, before I could afford, say, suits, was a kind of 70s shirt, big collars open, a couple of buttons down, some sort of gold jewelry, tightish sort of flared trousers. That kind of look was actually the look of the time. It wasn't a retro look so much at the time. There was a slight sense of irony about it, I guess, that we understood, but we. We actually loved that look. I've always. I mean, a lot of us Australians from that time love that look, and I've always stuck to it on some Level, do you know what I mean?
- [14:36]
Bella
Yeah. There's so much glamour, there's so much to play with from the 70s and I never think of you as retro, but there is an endless mine of, of stuff to have from the 70s. There were so many gorgeous things and then things referenced from the 30s, you know, that real elegance but just, just messed up a bit in, in the 70s. And the irony as well. I mean, even when people were deadly serious, it was kind of a joke because it was so gorgeous. I love it.
- [15:14]
Nick Cave
Well, I just think, personally, I, I think trousers mostly should be flared for men. I mean, maybe not for everybody. Maybe that's not actually right. I haven't a deep aversion to skinny tight trousers at the bottom. I can't think of anything worse. And, and that, that particular British suit that's tight and skinny lapels and tight trousers. Do you know what I mean? The ones that kind of. That lad look, that cling to the.
- [15:57]
Bella
Calf, that's my worst.
- [15:59]
Nick Cave
Or clean all the way down.
- [16:01]
Bella
Yeah.
- [16:01]
Nick Cave
Cling on the thighs. And I just find, I just find that absolutely grotesque. And, and it's, it's sort of still hangs in there, that look.
- [16:16]
Bella
For some reason, I know it's a very. I don't understand.
- [16:19]
Nick Cave
They'd learn. You'd think they'd see themselves in a photograph and, and understand how diabolical that look actually is.
- [16:29]
Bella
But it's so unflattering. That's my main.
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Nick Cave
Deeply, deeply.
- [16:35]
Bella
The sort of proportion that's emphasized is always the wrong bit.
- [16:40]
Nick Cave
Yeah, exactly.
- [16:41]
Bella
But I wanted to ask you as well about your feelings about your body because you're very self disciplined, which I can relate to a lot. And you're very, very. You're very thin and you look after yourself, you maintain yourself, you even go cold water swimming. And I wondered when that start. Was that something that started as a very young person.
- [17:07]
Nick Cave
I'm naturally thin and I'm tall, so I can carry fluctuations of weight relatively easily. I was a drug addict for 20 years, so that keeps the pounds off, not that I'm recommending it. And, and after that I just kind of basically look after my weight. I have a kind of a certain weight that I prefer and, and eat accordingly. In a way. I don't, you know, eat a lot and then I don't eat so much. And it's the French diet. Is that what they say?
- [17:47]
Bella
Is it? What's that supposed to be?
- [17:49]
Nick Cave
I think that if you eat an enormous amount the night before, you don't eat so much the next Day.
- [17:56]
Bella
Yeah.
- [17:57]
Nick Cave
You know, I think maybe you got that wrong. Anyway, I tend to do that. I don't go to the gym. I don't do any of that stuff. The only activity I do, which is relatively recently, I think I've been doing for about two years or so, is, is walk to the, to a lake and swim in the lake. I mean, that's, and, and that's not like, that's a sort of gentle, that's much more to do with the water being cold than, than actually doing sort of exercise as such.
- [18:39]
Bella
There's an exhilarating feeling, isn't it?
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Nick Cave
I, it's, it's catastrophic, you know, to, to, to jump into. I mean, if you have a, if you, if you're a sort of person who can find mornings difficult or have a slightly gloomy temperament that they don't, like, swim in cold water, it's, it's literally impossible to feel depressed if you jump into freezing water because the attack on the nervous system is so extreme. It just blows all that sort of stuff away. All of the kind of interior, the awful, interior conversations that you're having about yourself and about the world or whatever are obliterated. It's absolutely amazing. There's a writer, Roger Deacon, I'm paraphrased, paraphrasing him slightly, but he said, you know, you, you, you leap in with all your devils and come out a giggling idiot. You know, so it, I've mixed two things up, I think, with that one, but it's essentially very, very true. It's, it's, it's extremely good for the soul.
- [20:10]
Bella
Yeah. Really, I, I, I do a cold shower every morning for that reason. Every after the hot. I think, am I really going to do it? And I do it because I know it gets rid of this sad feeling that I.
- [20:28]
Nick Cave
That's right. How long do you do?
- [20:31]
Bella
Well, I do two minutes. I'd like to do three, but I'm doing two.
- [20:36]
Nick Cave
You don't have the time. Not too much else to do.
- [20:44]
Bella
Yeah. There's always something to strive for. So I'm striving for three minutes. But it is, it's miraculous the way the lightness comes afterwards. And it's.
- [20:56]
Nick Cave
Yeah, I do the same thing.
- [21:00]
Bella
It's wonderful to know that too, that even though I can't remember before I do it, I do it in faith. And then it always works. Yeah, it's amazing. And you mentioned being a bad drug addict for a long time, but you still managed to be productive and make records and deliver things. And I wondered when you stopped taking drugs and drinking. What kind of new disciplines came to life?
- [21:35]
Nick Cave
First of all, I was a heroin addict. And that is a discipline in itself. It's. I always look at it as the sort of conservatives drug in the sense that it, it's, you know, it, it requires its discipline, otherwise it's complete chaos. So you wake up in the morning and you have to score and you need to score again or take your drug in the evening as well. This sets up a kind of ritual and weird stabilizing process in your life. The problem is, is if, if you're disorganized or you don't have money, let's say, which, which I've been a heroin addict and, and had no money, this, this stops you. It stops you being able to, to do this, and. Which sends your life into absolute disorder and chaos. But provided you can, you remain sort of organized in some way, you can lead a weirdly stable existence. But it's actually, it's actually difficult to, to stay, you know, to, to stay organized. But, but once I gave that up, I did have a lot of things already in place. You know, I worked in an office and I worked at a desk and I wrote my songs in a. What I called the office. So I had these sorts of things that contained me in some way set up, you know, and that I'd always done. Even in Berlin, which were days of unbelievable excess and chaos, I still worked every day.
- [23:49]
Bella
What record were you making around that time in Berlin?
- [23:53]
Nick Cave
In Berlin? What records? Yeah, I think Tender Prey was one of them. The Firstborn is Dead, so it's the sort of mid-80s, right up until the Wall came down. I left pretty much exactly when the Wall came down. Not because of that, but coincided with that.
- [24:20]
Bella
Yeah.
- [24:23]
Nick Cave
But, you know, I, I'm sure it was like this for your father. And from what I read, it was like that, say, for Francis Bacon. The work was, in its way, ordered in the sense that you woke up and you went to work. This was not an optional thing. And it wasn't predicated on inspiration or anything like that. You just did your job until a particular time, and then you went out and did whatever you did after that. I've always followed that, that idea, which, which actually I learned off, off the painters because I went to art school for two years and I had a lot of painters who were, who were in the years above me, and I got on. I got on really well with these, these people and, and they led pretty extreme, wild lives, you know, but they always were at work in the morning, you know, regardless of what state they were in. And this, this sort of. It's not even. People say it's discipline, but it's, it's. It becomes second nature after a while.
- [25:48]
Bella
God, that's so interesting.
- [25:50]
Nick Cave
But that's, that's how I've always acted as a musician and that I've worked every day. But of course, musicians are very different creatures than painters, artists. They work when they feel like it. You know, they do nothing for a week and then eventually a song sort of floats down and they write it down and strum their guitar. Every now and then there's a kind of. There's no real worth work ethic going on, except especially in my day with musicians. But I always had one.
- [26:33]
Bella
Yeah, I mean, that's exactly what my father did. So interesting that you learned that at art school and everyone. People associate artists with being very whimsical in their application and they are the opposite because otherwise nothing happens, nothing gets done. Yeah. I learned my work ethic from sitting for my father and watching him and him saying. He used to say art comes before everything. And that was evident. You know, I didn't live with him or anything, but because he was an affectionate father in his. His kind of atmosphere, like your mother. He did. He wasn't demonstrative, but I felt it. It was such a lesson of especially battling the sort of gloom if I, if I work, something will happen and something has to happen. And I, I mean, you're. You do so much anyway as well as writing songs. You, you know.
- [27:44]
Nick Cave
Well, it's, it's. I actually, in the end, don't think that what you've said. I don't think art becomes, Art becomes. Before everything. I used to feel that I used to be sort of have these, these feelings when I would. When I would write and. And make my art of a kind of super capability about things. And, and it was no problem for me to go into the office and completely be absorbed in the process of songwriting and whatever I was doing, writing the books I've written or whatever those other things were, it was very easy for me to fall into that. And I always had this sort of underlying feeling of my own capabilities. I've always, I've sort of never doubted the. Never doubted that even when there was no real evidence of those capabilities. When I, when I was young, I always had this sort of feeling that what I was doing was. Was of great import. And, and so that, so that was this sort of. This was the sort of engine of creativity but in the end, I think it took a devastation in my life with the death of my son to realize that this is not true. This is fundamentally the, the wrong way of looking at how you, how you live a life. You may leave things behind you, but, but I think personally it's a, it's a life ill lived to, to be completely consumed with your own internal abilities at the expense of everything else. And if I have regrets, is that, is that I thought that too, that art was everything. And, and it's not, you know, and I tend to feel other things are more important. My position as a citizen, as a, as a, as a parent, as a husband, as a friend, the, these things are really the sort of, the true sort of juice of life. If you, yeah, if, if you, if you understand what I mean, I totally. And, and, and you can be a great artist, but you can also be a terrible human being as a consequence. And, and I don't think that ultimately I don't feel comfortable with that anymore. So it doesn't mean that I don't work anymore. It's. It's just that I spend more time, consciously spend more conscious attention on these other things.
- [31:03]
Bella
Yeah, I think I, I agree with you. I, I mean, I remember my father saying that when I was very, you know, when I was 10 and things, and thinking. Yeah, okay, I, I get, you know, it's a difficult thing to hear from the person you love most.
- [31:20]
Nick Cave
I would have thought that was a difficult thing to hear.
- [31:22]
Bella
And I think, I think he, I mean, I'm inventing this, but I think part of why he said those things was so that he could be as ruthless as he was and, but he did care about other, he did care about people. And I wonder if he was afraid of sometimes those feelings interfering with his, you know, his rigorousness. But I mean, I agree with you that I think you can be dedicated and you can expand your heart and your mind to be able to love people and let them in.
- [32:13]
Nick Cave
Yeah, that's beautifully put. I think that's absolutely possible. You know, that idea of sacrificing everything for your art, for me sits with the idea that say, drugs give you an edge or something like that. These, these sorts of ideas, extraordinarily self serving ideas that are actually just completely untrue as far as I can see.
- [32:43]
Bella
Yeah.
- [32:44]
Nick Cave
You know, because I've done both. You know, I, I know I, you know, the amount of times someone's told me, look, I need to take drugs to, to write or, you know, I need, I need to Lead a desolate life for the, you know, to be able to write or whatever these sorts of things are, that's just not true. And it's also not true that you need to sort of sacrifice your sort of relationship with the world in order to, to sort of. To be like a great artist.
- [33:26]
Bella
Yeah, it's a narrative.
- [33:27]
Nick Cave
I mean, many did, many did, obviously, but I don't think it's necessarily the way.
- [33:34]
Bella
I'm glad. And you talk a lot.
- [33:39]
Nick Cave
Susie. Susie before I came. Sorry, Susie before I came, said make sure you're funny.
- [33:51]
Bella
So funny. I was going to ask you about Susie because she's such a.
- [33:56]
Nick Cave
Well, she's the one who should be lying here. She's by far the interesting one. I hope you. Are you trying to get that happening?
- [34:06]
Bella
Yeah, I hope Susie will be here one day. But as you know, she's a most elusive character and with all her demeanor of gentleness and demureness, she's the most strong willed person I've ever met in my entire life. And you're such a, you know, you seem such a dominant character, but no one can get one over Susie. And no, I wonder.
- [34:35]
Nick Cave
I'm not really at all.
- [34:36]
Bella
I mean it's your, your style. Her, your style is a style of authority, but you're a very gentle person as well.
- [34:48]
Nick Cave
It's because I wear a suit.
- [34:50]
Bella
I wanted to ask you about the effect that Susie's had on you because in 20,000 days on Earth, the sort of film about you documentary, you have this chunk where there are these iconic moments from life, including Marilyn Monroe and the death of Kennedy. And you said, you say, then I met Susie and I wondered, were you, did you always think you would meet this love that was that big or did it just happen when you met her?
- [35:30]
Nick Cave
Yeah, well, I don't think, I always thought that. No, it's difficult to say in a way, I, I don't think I had any. At the time that I met Susie, I was struggling with all sorts of things, you know, and I was in no way in kind of showroom condition, as you know. I mean you, you have had such a, extraordinary, a pivotal sort of position in our lives because not only were you Susie's dear friend and, and someone that kind of looked out for Susie too, because she had her own problems Back, back, back then you were also the reason why we met. There was a, a show at the National History Museum. Right. Correct me if I'm wrong here, and it's quite something because I didn't know you very well. It was the first show I'd ever been to in my fashion show I'd ever been to in my life. And we had, I was in the front row and there were little name, name, name tags on each seat and there was, there was my name. And then, then I was sitting next to James Fox, who I thought was the actor James Fox. And I'm not sure who was on the. And, and Susie was on next to James, who, who, who I hadn't met. And I'd sat down, I got there early and I'd sat down and I was waiting for things to happen and I was, I was very much. I was, I was with my ex partner who'd kind of come along for the ride and I didn't really know what to expect in a, in a fashion show or anything. I was a little bit at sea being there anyway. And I was just sitting there and this woman walked in, Susie. And you know, you hear about this sort of love at first sight type of thing and, and what I tried to say in that little piece in, in one more, in 20,000 days on Earth of the effect that she had when I saw her, but it was an absolute impact, was a complete impact in, in every possible way. And I just never, I just never seen anyone so beautiful. It's, it's, it's difficult to put it, it's difficult to put into words, but it, but, but she, but her sort of. As she walked past and sat down next to James, the effect was not unlike. We're talking about jumping into freezing water. It was catastrophic and it changed everything for me. It completely reassembled what it was, my notions about everything, including beauty. There is an extreme beauty to Susie that is extremely mysterious. It seems to change every day that even still, after, I don't know, 25 years of marriage or whatever it is, I can't really put my finger on. And, and it was, it was rather beautiful because James was sitting in between each other. But I kept kind of glancing across James at Susie and she sort of was glancing across at me and there was this sort of, it was just this feeling and, and then I went backstage and she was backstage and I was literally too overwhelmed to be able to, to speak to her. But we did have a brief exchange there and, you know, I said hello and that it was lovely to meet you or something like that. She said, it's. It's lovely to meet you in this Susie way.
- [40:09]
Bella
I know.
- [40:09]
Nick Cave
And I think that was all I could handle and kind of not quite sure what happened after that. Then over, over quite, quite a long period of time, we gradually got together. I actually had to work out what to do about pursuing someone that, you know, I had these feelings for. I'd had no practice of that whatsoever. I'd never had to ask a woman out on a date or anything in my entire life. You know, I'd just been in a band. So, yeah, that, you know, you just go from hello to, you know, waking up with them the next morning. There's no. Do you understand what I mean? There's none of that kind of. Anyway, I had to sort of work that out and that eventually we slowly, you know, got together, but. I've forgotten what I was talking about. Sorry. It's this sort of.
- [41:18]
Bella
It's the psychiatric couch, I think just the impact of Susie on your. Well, I suppose I was thinking I always had this idea I would meet someone and the world would change and it would be the opposite of my parents who worked together briefly, but I would meet this life changing person. But. And in a way. Well, you did meet the life changing person, but it sounds like you didn't have a plan as such. And Susie has just become. I mean, you have such a. You have one of the great loves of this century. You know, it is just such a moving thing. And you wrote that piece in the Red Hand Files about when Arthur died and using your grief as a superpower. And I've read that lots of times. I've sent it to people who've, Who've lost, whose children have died and. And I always remember having breakfast with you about five or six years ago and I was really down and you said, I can experience happiness. And I always remember that moment thinking about what you've been through. And it was really like a life raft to me because I. It wasn't that. I think if you can go through this, why am I feeling this? It was just this feeling of possibility and that you extended that to me and I wondered how you'd created that.
- [43:06]
Nick Cave
Yeah, I mean, that's lovely for you to say that. And I think for me, and maybe it's always been this way to some degree that, you know, the sort of. For me personally, this may not apply to everyone, but for me personally, the sort of antidote to despair is order and knowing what you're doing in your life and knowing why you're here and having practical things that structure a life. And I really have to do that. Even though marriage is one of those things. It's a kind of ordering of love, in my view, in A very beautiful way. But Susie is chaotic. Susie is this element of disorder and chaos and sort of unmanageability, you know, that I have no control over that exists within my life. And so who, as you saying, just does what she wants to do, you know, is very free in that way. Yeah. But for me, I have to, as a response to that, I have quite an ordered way of living, you know, going through my day, for example. And I don't like. I don't like disorder because I get sad if things are chaotic and. And I don't know what to do next. You know, it's just bad. It's just bad for me. Not. Not everyone's like that. And I'm not saying that you need to be like that. But for me, personally, that idea, if we go back to fashion, even of wearing a suit, for me, is something structured, a kind of, you know, it's like a stabilizing element in my life is to wake up in the morning and put on a suit with all its kind of structure and architecture and its angles and everything like that. You know, I don't like soft clothing. I don't like, you know. You know, I like to be kind of kept. I love the structure and strictures of things mostly, really, because I think that's when I can allow the imagination to be run completely free as long as there's some sort of order around things. And. And in a way, we go back to the idea of. Of painting and stuff. I think that. That. That is a way of making order out of chaos.
- [46:21]
Bella
Yeah.
- [46:22]
Nick Cave
Anyway, that. That's absolutely. Absolutely essential for me and for my happiness. And also, I would say the sort of success of our relationship. One of the reasons for that is. Is a marriage and. And that we are contained in something that's. That. That's sort of bigger than our own selves in some ways.
- [46:52]
Bella
Yeah.
- [46:52]
Nick Cave
You know, that we're what we work not. You know, I think we both understand that on some level, but. Yeah. Sorry.
- [47:06]
Bella
No.
- [47:06]
Nick Cave
Is that okay?
- [47:07]
Bella
It's wonderful. I mean, it's such a useful thing to know about yourself because often people don't know what makes them happy or what is a structure to make things productive or for life to feel, you know, going forward.
- [47:24]
Nick Cave
That's right.
- [47:25]
Bella
The more, you know, I find the more, you know, what suits you, the more you can do.
- [47:32]
Nick Cave
I mean, I. I fundamentally disagree with the concept of that sort of untrammeled freedom that we're all sort of supposed to be making our way towards the sort of destruction of the institutions and all the things that. That holds the society together and these ideas of marriage and these sorts of things and. And also creativity that. That. That we're at our most creative when we're at our most free. I. I don't think that's true. I think we're, in my experience, at least, at my most creative. When I'm operating in a system of quite rigid, controlled experience, that's when the good stuff really happens for me.
- [48:23]
Bella
Yeah.
- [48:24]
Nick Cave
And. And I find that too, in. In the. In the idea of marriage. For me personally, I'm not. I can only speak for myself in. In these matters. And there's people who have excellent lives in all sorts of different ways. But for me personally, that antidote to despair and, you know, is. Has a lot to do with the habits and rituals that I have operating in my life.
- [49:01]
Bella
Yeah. I like to have to do things.
- [49:05]
Nick Cave
Yeah.
- [49:05]
Bella
Because then I could get them done and even traveling. I.
- [49:09]
Nick Cave
But I always feel you're very ordered, right?
- [49:13]
Bella
Yeah. Yeah. But only.
- [49:15]
Nick Cave
I mean, there's a. There's an attempt that you understand the sort of. The despairing nature of chaos.
- [49:23]
Bella
Yeah, totally.
- [49:24]
Nick Cave
Because of the way you were brought up and. Is that right?
- [49:28]
Bella
Yeah, very much so. I feel it's the antithesis of.
- [49:32]
Nick Cave
You had hippie parents and.
- [49:34]
Bella
Yeah.
- [49:35]
Nick Cave
You didn't have to go to school and. Is that right?
- [49:37]
Bella
Yeah, I mean, definitely it was. And I found order made me able to have ideas, and the less order, the more of a mess. I just can't make decisions. And when. When I feel indecisive, I feel totally, you know, without any power. So I. I relate very much to this whole thing about work. I love going to work. I like being at my desk and having deadlines, and I love it. It's great. I mean, in fact, when. When Susie was doing the Vampire's Wife, her amazing fashion brand, and there was a. The trade fair in Paris called Premier Vision, which is the most boring.
- [50:29]
Nick Cave
The memories.
- [50:31]
Bella
And she would manage to get out of going, but she'd send you. And we used to go around this huge place, which. It's like. There's no air. It's like breathing dust and thousands of stands. But you were really good at it. You're able to do things that a lot of men would find totally phasing. And have you. You've. Have you felt so confident?
- [50:57]
Nick Cave
I was the only person at Premier Vision that actually liked being there. I think so, because I was there with. You know, there was a bunch of other. I think Philip Tracy was there or Stefan or You and. I mean, I went to a few of them and everyone loathed going to Premier Vision because it's just such a sort of shit show. But, you know, it was new for me and. But yes, Susie, you know, had a. Whatever at the last minute and so I.
- [51:27]
Bella
She'd get a headache and then you.
- [51:29]
Nick Cave
Yeah, she'd get a headache or whatever that might be.
- [51:32]
Bella
That was great.
- [51:33]
Nick Cave
And. But I love doing that.
- [51:36]
Bella
Yeah. You seem to have a lot of. You give a lot of thought to each other's work and you're very collaborative without collaborating in an official way, but you listen to each other. That's the impression I get.
- [51:59]
Nick Cave
Yeah, that's true. It's true. Susie's actually very musical, Much more innately musical than I am. I mean, she just didn't learn an instrument or anything, but she's hears music in a very musical way. And I'm quite good with clothes and stuff. At least I have my own ideas about it. I have, you know, very violent reactions against things that I don't like in the same way as Susie does. There's no two ways about certain things in regard to fashion for us, so that's good. And we're pretty. Pretty aligned on those sorts of things.
- [52:55]
Bella
And if. If you fancy someone and don't like what they're wearing, does it kill your attraction if. I mean, Susie is the great love in your life and if she wears something you're quite, as you said, particular about things and what happens?
- [53:14]
Nick Cave
Well, do you mean I'd be put off someone if they wore something that I had a particular dislike? Yeah, they'd have to work a lot harder, if you know what I mean. You know, I mean, you know, I. I don't know. I have. There's certain. Certain things I don't like. Do you want me to say what they are?
- [53:37]
Bella
Yeah, that. Because I know there are certain shoes and things you don't.
- [53:40]
Nick Cave
Yeah, I have. I have sort of issues around certain shoes.
- [53:44]
Bella
What kind of shoes?
- [53:46]
Nick Cave
You know, I mean, I. I don't like ankle boots. I really don't like them any particular. And. And I know many people to. To wear them and with. With tresses.
- [53:59]
Bella
Right.
- [54:01]
Nick Cave
I think they're a bit of a disaster.
- [54:04]
Bella
Can you describe what it is you don't like?
- [54:07]
Nick Cave
I think it's a shortening. They basically, in my view, shorten the legs. Don't you think? Do you think.
- [54:15]
Bella
It depends on.
- [54:16]
Nick Cave
Do you have a whole lot of them in your bedroom and you've got.
- [54:20]
Bella
A pair of white.
- [54:21]
Nick Cave
Am I sort of Wading into.
- [54:24]
Bella
No, it's a very, it's a, it's a popular look among sexy girls who wear ankle boots. But.
- [54:31]
Nick Cave
Yeah, I don't like that. I don't. I mean, I just don't like that. Yeah, I know the look. I mean, it's just me. It's nothing actually wrong with them, it's just a sort of thing. For example, do I sound like some sort of fascist?
- [54:50]
Bella
No. It's amazing how affecting it is when someone wears something that you don't like and how you have to reconfigure your intention towards them. Is it over? Or if. Do you kind of find something else or demand they take it off? If you are in that privileged position.
- [55:15]
Nick Cave
Yeah. Or, you know, understand in some way that friendship or whatever is really a kind of serious series of sort of small forgivenesses and, and it's okay, you know, it's not the end of the world. Ankle boots aren't the end of the world. They're near, they're adjacent to the end of the world. And. But, but, but kind of forgivable too. Right.
- [55:39]
Bella
So remember when, when I came to Brussels for your exhibition of the ceramics at Xavier Hoskins and I came and Susie and I had lunch and then she said that you didn't like the shoes she was wearing. So you went to a shop and she put these shoes on and then they cost about £2,000 and she was really pleased. She'd managed to get these wonderful new shoes because you'd objected to whatever it was she was wearing. So it had quite a good outcome.
- [56:16]
Nick Cave
I said why she wears those shoes?
- [56:19]
Bella
Apart from. To your credit card.
- [56:22]
Nick Cave
But yeah, she's got a lot.
- [56:27]
Bella
As well as touring your new album, you've been exhibiting your work, your Sculptors of the series, the Life of the Devil. And there's something very endearing about, about him and the clothes he wears as well. I wondered how you decided what he would look like. Cuz I mean, I love your drawings anyway. And these sculptures and these figurines are just so beautiful and full of pathos and the devil's wearing these sort of amazing clothes as well. And I wondered how you chose to make him have this kind of touching element as well as being.
- [57:11]
Nick Cave
Yeah, I mean they're based on Staffordshire style or Staffordshire figurines. You know, they're imitations on some level of Staffordshire figurines which were made in the, you know, 1800s and, and later, but essentially then Victorian things and, and so sometimes the costumes are Victorian. There's a, there's A. A narrative of 17 figurines that tell the story of the devil. And I think it's the 14th one where he is in despair, in remorse. In remorse. The devil in remorse. He suddenly just wears a black suit. And I think that's an attempt to suddenly pull it into the contemporary.
- [58:03]
Bella
It's very effective.
- [58:04]
Nick Cave
Yeah. Thank you.
- [58:06]
Bella
And as well as everything you do, I remembered a while back when Russell Crowe asks you to write Gladiator 2 and you did, and it sounded quite funny and I wondered what happened, what.
- [58:22]
Nick Cave
Happened with that, the whole thing. I'd written the script for a film called the Proposition. It was an Australian Western brilliant film that John. John Hillcote directed. One day I get a phone call and it's. It's Russell Crowe. And this is just when the whole of the Proposition project had collapsed and before it got, you know, working again and became. Became a film. And he asked me if I wanted to write another script. And I'm like, no way. I don't want to have anything to do with that. That's just sort of dog's job, you know, it's just a complete waste of time, etc. And he goes, what about Gladiator 2? And I'm like, okay. And then I'm like, didn't you die in Gladiator 1? And he goes, no, you sought that out. You sort that out. And because he, he wanted to be. He wanted to be in it. And as far as I know, Ridley Scott was interested in the idea too. And so I set about writing that script. I just knew that the idea that I had would never be made in Hollywood anyway. So it was a kind of rather fun fool's errand that never got made. It was a good story. I bet it was called Christ Killer, which was going to have problems in Hollywood anyway, but, you know, Gladiator is sent down from purgatory in order to kill the Christians because they were. They were sort of taking over and the. The ancient gods were dying and. And in one of the versions, he ends up being the. The centurion that, that sticks the spear in the side of Christ. It went all over the place. Anyway, it. I sent it to Russell and I'm like, what do you think? And he goes, don't like it, mate.
- [60:36]
Bella
Oh, God.
- [60:37]
Nick Cave
And I'm like, what about the end? Nah, mate. And so that was, that was the end of that. And it's just sort of sat around, you know, on the, on the Internet. You can read it, I think.
- [60:48]
Bella
Oh, really? I'll definitely read that. I love films that Bring in the gods. Anything to do with Ancient.
- [60:57]
Nick Cave
Yes, he wakes. He wakes up in purgatory, and the gods know he is Gladiator, and so they send for him. And all the gods are dying because there's this force down on earth that's taking over, which is Christianity and Christ and these disciples. And they know their days are numbered, so they send Gladiator down to Earth to kill Christ and all the disciples.
- [61:23]
Bella
Oh, dear.
- [61:27]
Nick Cave
Anyway, it was a good idea, but it didn't wash.
- [61:33]
Bella
I remember once when we were figuring out some suits for you ages ago, and you said, I just want to look like a big old spider on stage, which is such a kind of powerful image. And I was. My shrink said that people attach their phobias to especially spiders. But you describing yourself like this, and yet everyone is drawn towards you. And I just wondered what you were thinking when you. When you said that.
- [62:04]
Nick Cave
Well, you know, I. I think what I was probably thinking is I wanted to be long and lean and all angles and. And, you know, like a big old spider.
- [62:15]
Bella
Yeah, it's a great description.
- [62:18]
Nick Cave
You know, I. I think what I've always tried to do and what we've talked about before, actually, is the idea of the silhouette. And for me, on stage, that's what it's all about. It's why I tend to wear dark suits or black suits, because they're good from a distance in the sense that your figure is cut out, the silhouette is clean and angular and cut out in a. In a dramatic way.
- [62:47]
Bella
And you write a lot about black hair, and you and Susie have this incredible black hair. And I wondered if you'd ever been attracted.
- [62:56]
Nick Cave
It comes from the same tube.
- [63:00]
Bella
Have you ever been attracted to blonde?
- [63:03]
Nick Cave
Yeah, I've had blonde girlfriends. Feels weird to say, actually.
- [63:10]
Bella
Yeah.
- [63:11]
Nick Cave
I can't even imagine it now, but I have. Yeah. The thing about black hair, for me, it has its origin story, which is that my. The first girl that I was really attracted to or that I was, like, mystified by. I don't mean in love with, but that was, I thought, was of a kind of beauty that was. That I didn't. You know, I was very young. I was 14, 15 or something like that. I had absolutely no idea what to do with this, you know, this person. But she had black hair and. And a kind of. She would wear pale makeup, and this was a long time. This is a long time ago. And that I was, you know, deeply attracted to this person. I mean, deeply attracted. And she left suddenly. She just sort of disappeared out of My life. And after that, I started to dye my hair black. Really, I was, you know, really upset by the whole thing. Was like the first. The first sort of heartbreak. And I dyed my hair black and I basically kept it black ever since, weirdly enough, for all sorts of different reasons.
- [64:49]
Bella
There's something about when you and Susie come into a room and you're both. You have this glossy raven black hair and it's just. It's so romantic. It's incredible.
- [65:01]
Nick Cave
Well, it's because we've sort of probably died it on the same day out of the same, you know.
- [65:09]
Bella
Do you do it yourself? You don't go somewhere.
- [65:12]
Nick Cave
I've been dyeing my hair, allegedly dyeing my hair for, I don't know, 50 years. My God.
- [65:26]
Bella
You told me once about the Enneagram personality typing system based on ancient spiritual traditions, which describes people's motivations in terms of their desires and fears. And I did the test. You said you were an 8. And I did the test and came out an 8. I was kind of very relieved to be an 8, too. And I just. Do you enjoy that kind of thing sometimes?
- [65:57]
Nick Cave
Yeah, not really. And not really. It's sort of. It's a little kind of woo, woo, that kind of stuff. But I think the Enneagrams are actually very accurate. I. I found them at the time. It's one of those things. I probably raved you about it at the time. But, you know, when I got my character typed back, I recognized a lot very detailed things that I saw in myself. And the one that moved me was Susie's Enneagram. When she did it, she was a six. And that was someone that was essentially fearful. You can grow into your Enneagram type, I think. And. And Susie has throughout her life an extraordinary amount of horrendous things. You know, the sort of reason for Susie is predicated on a whole lot of dark, subterranean forces in her life that she is afraid of and fear. And when I read her thing, I found it unbelievably moving because she's just a six. You know, these things, these confounding, deeply difficult aspects of her nature are there because she is a six. And that was really moving to me. You know, A6 literally dresses beautifully all the time because they're afraid of being physically attacked.
- [67:48]
Bella
Wow.
- [67:48]
Nick Cave
You know, it's. And so they. They feel that they need to maintain. Be visually beautiful to the world or else the world will turn on them. I mean, it's. It's an unbelievably moving thing. And you Know, and. And on some level, it makes sense with Susie, she. She. You know, I found that really. You know, the thing. The thing. The thing about the Enneagram is that they really humanize people. You. You read an Enneagram and you understand why someone is the way that they. They are. And I find them very. I find the Enneagram in the end, very moving sort of thing.
- [68:36]
Bella
Whenever I've doubted Susie, she's proved me wrong in the way that I would least like it. Like.
- [68:46]
Nick Cave
What do you mean?
- [68:47]
Bella
Well, I remember once we went on holiday in Italy and we went to this beach and she said, I'm worried that there's snakes. And I said, oh, don't be silly. It's fine. And, you know, I've been there loads of times and.
- [69:00]
Nick Cave
Yeah.
- [69:01]
Bella
Anyway, I look around and there was something that looked like the Loch Ness Monster just coming off and down out of the sand. And it was like. She just proved me.
- [69:12]
Nick Cave
Yeah. That. That. That I'll never forget that that happened. That happened. Or that. That happens all the time with me. That is a six thing. Without going back to the Enneagrams too much, but of a. Of a. That a 6 can see danger and disaster coming way before normal human beings can. And. And have an intuitive response to people. That's often. Susie is like, be careful of that person.
- [69:43]
Bella
Yeah.
- [69:44]
Nick Cave
What the. We just met. We just met them, you know, and generally. Right.
- [69:53]
Bella
Yeah. I always pay attention.
- [69:55]
Nick Cave
I mean, I don't. I've learned to pay attention.
- [69:57]
Bella
Yeah. Yeah. Because I want to reassure her, but I also want to pay attention because she's onto something quite a lot of the time.
- [70:10]
Nick Cave
She's generally onto something.
- [70:11]
Bella
Yeah.
- [70:12]
Nick Cave
But at the same time, it's. I don't personally. I'm trusting of the world, trusting of people. I kind of like people, even if I don't like them.
- [70:27]
Bella
Yeah.
- [70:27]
Nick Cave
You know what I mean?
- [70:28]
Bella
Yeah.
- [70:29]
Nick Cave
I mean, I just like them in theory.
- [70:33]
Bella
And I think I'm more afraid of fear than I. Yeah. Then I'm fearful. I. Fear is such a potential stopper that I.
- [70:45]
Nick Cave
Right.
- [70:45]
Bella
I've often, throughout my life, set myself tests. Not even consciously some of the time, but it makes me feel very. Well, like when I was a child, I used to do where I. When I learned about the Spartans, I did all sorts of endurance tests.
- [71:03]
Nick Cave
Really?
- [71:03]
Bella
Yeah. Like when I was 11 and 10, I. I constructed. I would not have. I would sleep with one blanket in the winter and not allow myself a second helping.
- [71:17]
Nick Cave
That's brilliant, really.
- [71:18]
Bella
I mean, that's why all the cold Water and all that stuff. I'll. I'll embrace that. That seems easy. But having a genuine fear feels so much more threatening and more paralyzing that I, I like all the continuity and anything that sets that up, like. Like you described.
- [71:41]
Nick Cave
Yeah, it's. It's funny. I'm not fearful, you know, I'm not saying I'm brave. I'm saying I'm just don't have that sort of paralyzing fear or, Or a kind of suspicion towards certain things that Susie has. And she has very good reason for it. You know, if you start to dig back.
- [72:05]
Bella
Yeah.
- [72:08]
Nick Cave
Through her life, the things that she's gone through, it's no wonder. And I haven't had that kind of life. I haven't had those sorts of experiences, you know, so people have generally been good. Yeah. To me, and, and that I've seen in the way that they are. So I, I have a sort of fundamentally different way of viewing the world, but the world is often difficult and Susie's often right, you know, and I'm. I'm often left looking kind of naive about things. Do you know what I mean?
- [72:55]
Bella
Yeah. She has this kind of like. She understands the geology of what's happening. It's so deep.
- [73:04]
Nick Cave
Yeah.
- [73:04]
Bella
It's really unlike anything. Anyone. I don't know anyone like her. And she's.
- [73:15]
Nick Cave
Yeah, yeah, it's fun. It's funny that you mentioned the snake, you know, when, when she said you've got to be careful of snakes. This, this sort of thing has played out with me so many times and, and, you know, I'm Australian, so I'm like, blase about all that sort of stuff. The day. The dangers lurking behind everything. And, and we've, We've had absolutely hilarious or. And tragic scenarios in. In that way.
- [73:51]
Bella
I think I remember hearing something about finding a scorpion under a rock or she, she.
- [73:57]
Nick Cave
She kept worrying about spiders in Australia and I'm like, for sake. You know. Yeah, there are spiders, but they're not. You know, you're not going to find them anywhere. And she. We were in a rented house and she was putting the nappy onto one of the children and there was a white back, which is a particular spider that if it bites you, you sort of blister up in all these pustules and stuff. I mean, this unbelievably horrible spider sitting in the child's nappy and she's like, it's typical anyway.
- [74:41]
Bella
Yeah. She'd find it and she'd save the day. It's a deadly combination.
- [74:48]
Nick Cave
Yeah. That's right.
- [74:50]
Bella
I've been listening a lot to your song Love Letter and I love that song so much. And there's a line where you say I said something I did not mean to say and I wondered if you remembered what that was.
- [75:09]
Nick Cave
I don't know. But that is from that period in our early relationship. Susie claims. Although I can't remember doing this, but there's probably very good reason I can't remember doing this, that I put a love letter into her letterbox. It. Castellane. Yeah, when she lived there in mail that I. I think it was after that We. I think we had. We'd broken up. We. We'd broken up. We. We were together. And then she stopped seeing me. I think I was just too up to have a relationship with and couldn't find her. Do you remember this?
- [76:01]
Bella
Yeah.
- [76:01]
Nick Cave
And you held this party here or.
- [76:05]
Bella
The other next door in my old flat.
- [76:06]
Nick Cave
Yeah, in your old flat. And I was. I was kind of bereft by this stage. Susie had completely disappeared off the face of the earth. I might have the order of things wrong, but Susie turned up to that party wearing a little dress that she cut off that was so short and. And long purple gloves up to here and this flimsy, tiny little skirt and looked unbelievable. I mean, she looked unbelievable. I can't. You know, it was. It was deeply unfair, deeply unfair that she sort of re. Entered my life and I. I'm not sure if she didn't disappear again. I can't really remember. But anyway, that night, apparently I. I sort of ran through the rain and sort of delivered a. A letter into her letterbox, which that song Love Letter comes from.
- [77:10]
Bella
Yeah.
- [77:11]
Nick Cave
I'm not so sure that's true.
- [77:14]
Bella
He seemed to remember, so.
- [77:17]
Nick Cave
But I was pretty. You know, I was pretty out of it, so I probably don't know. I can't really remember that.
- [77:24]
Bella
Well, you courted her in a way. And I always remember her telling me that she just decided one. That you were the one. And she came to your door and rang the bell and said, I don't care what you're going through, but I'm never leaving you again.
- [77:47]
Nick Cave
Yeah, that's right.
- [77:48]
Bella
I was.
- [77:49]
Nick Cave
That was after eight months of disappearing, essentially.
- [77:52]
Bella
Yeah.
- [77:53]
Nick Cave
She just arrived back. Yeah, there's a song about that. There's a song. Final Rescue Attempt, it's called.
- [78:02]
Bella
Yeah.
- [78:03]
Nick Cave
Which describes that.
- [78:06]
Bella
So beautiful.
- [78:13]
Nick Cave
The last time you came around here was to rescue me. You arrived with your customary flair. You rode through the rain all the way from Castellane with the wind. With the wind. With the wind in your hair. Yeah, that was quite. Yeah, that was quite something that. And then she just stayed. She just stayed. So once again, you're sort of involved in. In. In our lives. Wow.
- [78:47]
Bella
It's been a great joy for me to have you and Susie as my family and.
- [78:56]
Nick Cave
Yeah, it's a family thing.
- [78:57]
Bella
It is. It feels very close and very, you know, talking of freedom, it does feel. It has this freedom of how we come and go, but we're always there. It's one of the great joys of my life.
- [79:16]
Nick Cave
Yeah, me too. It's one of the reasons why I wanted to come and do this in a way. Apart from that. I've seen other ones that you've done, and they're really amazing. It's a sort of lovely idea. You know, we've had countless meals together and conversations about things, but there was something. There's something about this idea that I. That I saw on some of the other people. This kind of drifty thing that goes on just to lie here and talk about things. It's a unique way to. To, you know, conduct an interview in a way.
- [79:55]
Bella
Thank you so much.
- [79:56]
Nick Cave
Good idea.
- [79:58]
Bella
Thank you so much, Nick, for being here and being on Fashion Neurosis and.
- [80:05]
Nick Cave
It's my pleasure, Bella.
- [80:07]
Bella
Thank you.