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- [00:09]
A
Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. Rachel Jones.
- [00:19]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [00:21]
A
Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?
- [00:26]
B
Yeah, I'm wearing leopard print leggings and tabbies from Margiela. They're cream slingbacks. And then I've got a T shirt on that my mum gave me. It was one of the first magazines that she ever worked for. So it's something I inherited. It's like, I don't know, nearly 50 years old.
- [00:50]
A
Amazing. I noticed it has the perfect kind of worn in sheerness with a few little holes, which is the ultimate in a T shirt.
- [01:01]
B
Yeah, it's got like a little moth hole on it. A lot of the things I own have holes in them kind of through, like, the use. But also a little bit of it is just the age. But I get very attached to the things that I have. And so having things from family members or things that I've collected over time are like a key part of my wardrobe. And I won't stop wearing something just because it has holes in it. I actually get more invested in it because I think it adds to the way it looks.
- [01:37]
A
Yeah, I agree. I love moth holes. And for ages before I started doing bigger collections, everything had moth holes in, really. And it just felt like it was contributing somehow. It was part of the wear and tear of being a creative person in some way.
- [01:56]
B
Yeah, exactly. And I don't know, I feel like. I don't know, as an artist, I get stuff on my clothes quite a lot and they don't really retain their pristineness or like the idea of being as, I don't know, like, clean and tidy as they could be. That's just not inherently how things end up being when I own them. And I accepted that about myself. I used to get really annoyed about things getting dirty or me getting paint on things. You should really stress me out. But now I'm like, it kind of is what it is. Like, it's a sign of the way that I live. And, yeah, I don't resist it so much anymore.
- [02:39]
A
I love that because my father used to obviously have that, being an artist, and he would have these nice clothes and then he would have painted painting clothes. But then there would be a moment when one of the nice shirts that he had would get paint on and then suddenly it would move into the painting clothes.
- [03:00]
B
Oh, it's ruined.
- [03:02]
A
Yeah. And then mostly he was quite. He was quite relaxed in the studio, but then he was really fussy about any paint coming out of the studio getting on the carpet, because he had these really nice carpets. And my obsession with carpet came from him. And he used to have carpets made, but, wow. Then when he died, I kept some of his painter's trousers, and I've got even a vase that has paint on it. And I just love to see paint on something anywhere.
- [03:38]
B
Yeah, it's kind of like a weird antiquing. You know, when you get something that's centuries old and there's no question in your mind about the beauty of the age that's visible in it and the indents and the things that have gone wrong, it becomes like, an inherent and necessary part of the object or the thing. And I feel like maybe I've gotten to a point where I see my clothes like that. I'm like, the pain that that's on certain things or the holes. And I don't know, the way things change over time, they become, I don't know, like, part of, like, a really interesting legacy of the. Of the clothing. And then you get to just enjoy it in a different way to the way it was when you first had it.
- [04:29]
A
And you're a highly respected and successful artist, producing work in many mediums, including sculpture and poetry and even music. And you work in international museums, including the Tate Gallery. I went to see your painting there a few weeks ago, and art seems to me the hardest thing to do. And I wondered how you decided on this path.
- [04:54]
B
I suppose when I was younger, I recognized quickly that I was good at drawing, and I noticed how it made me feel. Like, I always felt very focused when I was drawing, and there was this satisfaction I got from being able to express myself in a way that felt like it was wholly mine. And I just had this very clear thought process where I was like, oh, like, I'm good at this and I should do this. But I didn't actually think that that would be a reality, and it was something I could pursue. So it's kind of amazing to me that I am where I am, and I get to pursue all of these, like, creative interests that I have, because it's not something that I ever really thought would become a reality. But I made a decision when I was at school that if I didn't make that, I would be unhappy. And that just seemed like a really nonsensical thing. I was like, why would you make a decision for yourself where you know that you're not going to be satisfied with the life you live if you walk away from this thing that is really important to you? So I committed to it within myself. And then, you know, I told my mom that I wanted to be an artist. And, yeah, like, she just thought it was absurd and was very concerned about, like, what that meant for me in terms of being able to support myself. But she understood that I have, like, a very strong sense of conviction about certain things, and if I put my mind to something, then, like, I tend to achieve it in whatever way it manifests. So I, Yeah, like, went to art school, and since then, I've just kind of carried on trying to just prioritize, like, giving myself the space to make things. So, yeah, it was, like, a series of small decisions that led me to where I am now.
- [07:00]
A
Seems a pretty major decision to make. You're so young. It's really impressive. And what was the first painting that you saw and loved?
- [07:09]
B
Oh, it was a Bangor painting. It was the Sunflowers. We looked at that in school. Yeah, we had to draw. Draw Sunflowers based on the way that he'd made them. And, yeah, he was the reason I was like, oh, like, people make art for a living and. And people learn about the art that you make, like, once you've died. And, yeah, like, the things you make become part of life beyond you. And so he really was the reason I thought that I could become an artist.
- [07:43]
A
That's so sophisticated to think like that when you're so young. You seem to have this fully formed way of, like, feeling and seeing what's there for yourself, but it feels round rather than linear. I know that doesn't really make much sense, but it's.
- [08:00]
B
No, that's nice. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I've got, like, a very good sense of my intuition being the best guide for me and, like, how I try to move through the world. And, yeah, I've learned to listen to that more and more as I've gotten older. And I think it's good because sometimes you can't explain why you're drawn in certain directions or why certain things resonate with you the way that they do. But I feel like a really important part of life is learning how to listen to yourself and trust those feelings, whatever they are. And if you let that guide you, then you kind of end up where you're meant to be.
- [08:48]
A
Yeah.
- [08:48]
B
And the more you do that, the easier it is. Even when things might seem impossible or really challenging, there's, like, a certain ease you can move through life with because there's this, like, unquestionable truth to, like, why you're doing something that comes from within you. And it becomes like a bedrock in a way that means that no matter what changes around you, like, you don't really shift that much in your intentions.
- [09:15]
A
God, it's such a. Because I know the feeling. I know exactly what you mean. But a lot of my experience was so, like, overshadowed with or sort of tainted by darkness. So I had that feeling, but it was almost like being hunted through. It was like a threat response, almost. But what you describe is the opposite. It's like a going towards joy. And you mentioned that when we were talking the other day and there's. You also talked about this show you made, which just sounds so amazing, called Blessings Upon Blessings.
- [09:55]
B
Yeah.
- [09:55]
A
Which was an installation sound musical performance and inspired by lyrics from Mr. Vegas's song I Am Blessed. You described it as pro black karaoke. And you said this other thing, which I loved, which is, you don't like to be the center of attention, but if you've got a microphone in your hand, then yes, you can't get.
- [10:19]
B
It's a different thing.
- [10:21]
A
It's like, how did you bring that into your art? The karaoke?
- [10:26]
B
I mean, I just love music. I feel like everybody has a very specific relationship to the things they heard when they were growing up and the things they listen to now. There was always music in the house when I was a child, and I listened to music when I'm working as well in the studio. And I felt like it might be a really good time for me to pivot towards integrating some of the things in my personal life, like my day to day life and bringing that into the practice. And I went to music school actually as a child for like 10 years. And I played the violin and piano and I played in orchestras and learned how to read music. So I have this formal relationship to it as well, where I was like, maybe I can start to think about the practice as something that becomes expansive and includes this relationship I have to sound. And I thought like, the most accessible thing I could do was to do a karaoke performance. Because there's this very communal element to it. And I don't know, I just wanted something in the work to feel like other people could join me and participate. But I was also, like, creating the environment and structure that they were joining me in. And so I was able to embed certain narratives in the performance. And that what that was why it was like a pro black kind of theme. Because it was in the year of COVID and all of this stuff had been happening with Black Lives Matter and George Floyd and everyone Just felt very, I think, heavy and depleted, especially because we weren't able to, like, be with each other because, you know, we were having to stay inside. So I wanted this moment of celebration, but also for there to be, like, a critical lens looking at black experiences around music and togetherness. And so, yeah, I don't know, it sort of became like this thing that evolved, and I sang with my family and I got recordings of my friends singing, and, I don't know, it was just like, a really special moment. And it changed the way I thought about the way I work quite a lot as well.
- [12:47]
A
I mean, it's such an inspired idea, and it's got so many aspects of artistic, you know, output in it. It's really. And also it's so good that it's. When you were telling me about it and I was reading about it, it was just that you can use these things that are a great source of energy and happiness and fun in life and extend it into your art and. And then it's art.
- [13:16]
B
Yeah, it's great.
- [13:17]
A
I love that.
- [13:18]
B
I don't know. I always feel like music doesn't have to be explained in any way. And sometimes with art, like, there's this context applied to it that people find very intimidating and they sort of feel like they have to be given permission to, I don't know, like, engage or they feel like it's not their place to participate in commenting or, like, sharing thoughts about what they see. And that doesn't exist with music. And so it was really important for me to use that as a medium because it just. It traverses all of these, like, boundaries that there are with visual art sometimes.
- [14:01]
A
Yeah, it's a really good point, actually, because it can become so academic.
- [14:06]
B
Yeah.
- [14:06]
A
People commenting on art and you just drift off and think, I don't know what you're talking about.
- [14:11]
B
Yeah. It's like, how is this relevant to my life?
- [14:14]
A
And then music is just an automatic feeling that then kind of creates language for you to use. It's wonderful. And what clothes have you been influenced by in your identity as an artist? Was there. Was there anything you were obsessed with wearing as a child?
- [14:33]
B
Ooh, there was nothing I was obsessed with wearing when I was a child, but I am obsessed with the clothes that I wore as a child, now as an adult. So I have all of these, like, T shirts from the age of, like, 8 to 11 that I wear now and things from my siblings as well, which is kind of crazy because I can still fit into them. But, yeah, I don't Know, I feel like I have this very sentimental relationship to some of the things I wore when I was a kid. And I feel like a lot of that is to do with the color and graphics of T shirts. And I think some of that is part of how I maybe started to understand my relationship to color and form and texture and the tactility of clothes and, like, the way they feel on your body and, like, the sensory experience of them. I think all of that is kind of in my work in a way. And, yeah, it started to maybe register with me in a way that I didn't understand until my 20s. So, yeah, I've got a very particular collection of things from my childhood that are from, like, my family that I feel have kind of shaped my understanding of, like, not just how I approach dressing myself, but how I approach making as well. And the connection between the two, which seems a bit odd maybe, but I don't know. Like, it makes sense in my brain. Like, how I dress myself reflects what my paintings look like, I think when people meet me and then they see the work. Oh, okay.
- [16:26]
A
That's so interesting.
- [16:28]
B
Yes, great.
- [16:30]
A
And talking about the graphics and I, like, with a T shirt that you can be quite shy and quite introverted, but you can just allow someone to know something about you. And I suppose through clothes in general. But there's something about a T shirt. It's like an album cover, and. Yeah, it has the one word sometimes. And.
- [16:52]
B
Yeah.
- [16:53]
A
And it's like, this is who I am. Even though I can't really be a bit more visible, I have to step back until I can step forward.
- [17:02]
B
Yeah, they're amazing. And I just think, like, the way color is used as well in T shirts, and, like, compositionally, like, the placement of text or images, and then, like, sometimes there's nothing on the front, but there's something on the back. I. Yeah, all of that stuff. I'm like, oh, God, it's so good. And I was saying to a friend the other day, like, if, you know, people ask you that question, like, oh, if there was a fire, what would you. Yeah, what would you grab? A hundred. I would take a T shirt. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, out of everything I have, I would take a T shirt. Yeah.
- [17:38]
A
God, I don't know what I take. I sometimes dream about things like that, and it would be, like, not. Not the most precious thing, but just anything.
- [17:48]
B
Yeah, you just, like, in a panic, I'm like, no. I have so, so much clarity about exactly what T shirt would take as well.
- [17:55]
A
And how did you find the transition from girl to woman because you say you couldn't still wear the things you had between the age of 8 and 11. And I wondered how showing femininity for you.
- [18:08]
B
Oh, I feel like I have quite a. I don't know, like, extreme version of femininity that is about glamour and, like, sensuality. Like, I love wearing things that are relatively, like, transparent and sort of move around the body in an interesting way. Like, they're either really structured and sculptural or they have this sense of, I don't know, just like, coating or, like, gliding over my skin and you being able to maybe like, see a little bit of my body underneath, but never everything. So I have, yeah, like, a pretty good collection of dresses that fit into that. That category. But I don't wear dresses that often, so it feels especially significant when I put them on. And I feel like it's me really trying to embody, like, a different part of myself that maybe I don't day to day because I feel like I have quite an androgynous way of dressing. Like, I love wearing jeans and I have a lot of boys clothes. Wear a lot of hoodies and just things that I'm, like, comfortable in and can run around in. I wear a lot of shorts in the summer and I got quite, like a sporty aesthetic probably. So it's fun for me to completely change that when I want to feel a little bit more feminine or, like, sexy. And to me I'm like, oh, well, that's just like a dress. And then thinking about jewelry as a way of emphasizing certain parts of the body. I don't know. Yeah, it's quite. It's quite fun that I've grown in. Into that because it's not how maybe I saw myself in my early 20s, but it's definitely part of the way I dress now.
- [20:01]
A
Yeah. Because it's quite easy sort of dressing androgynously, which I do too, to drift quite far from the feminine self, because I feel quite feminine in androgynous things. But I feel it's also really important to stay, like, suddenly go mad and wear a dress and, like, remember that bit and revive that and. Yeah, that's interesting to hear. Hear what you. What you wear. That sound really beautiful, those things. It's.
- [20:32]
B
Yeah, it's exciting as well because I wear quite a lot of, like, I love suiting, but I normally only wear jackets and then like, tights and heels or, like, I'll have, like, really. I'll have, like, hot pants on underneath and then just like, a jacket with heels and no tights. So that's another way of, like, combining maybe a little bit of more of, like, the mascul dressing that I'm into with this idea of femininity. But that again, it's like. Then I think about my body as, like, a sculptural thing, like the length of my legs becoming, like, this way of, like, defining my femininity whilst I'm wearing a really structured and tailored jacket.
- [21:14]
A
Yeah.
- [21:15]
B
So, yeah, I feel like there's little things I like to do to suggest my femininity, maybe. And then other times I like to really lean into it and make a little bit of a moment of it. Especially when I have something like, I don't know, like a show opening or like I'm celebrating something. That's when I kind of go all out and try to wear something crazy. Yeah.
- [21:38]
A
Also, there's something about you describing that outfit with the. The jacket and then the super short shorts. And it's like you look in the mirror and there's a picture of kind of innocence and demureness. And then when someone's looking at you, they're seeing these amazing legs and being spellbound by your legs. So it's quite a good way of being able to feel unselfconscious about showing out a bit, which is, I think, really important.
- [22:09]
B
Yeah, exactly. I feel like, because anything I wear, I want to be comfortable in as well and feel like I'm being myself. So. Yeah, it means getting to know your body and, like, what. What works for your body, but also, like, where you can play with things or subvert things and maybe, I don't know, like, shock people a little bit just in ways that don't seem obvious. Like, sometimes it's even as simple as, like, wearing socks with, like, a flat shoe and having a short, like, skirt or something. And then, like, that creates this different division of your body and like. Like proportionally and, like, it's still really alluring, but it's not maybe the obvious way to seduce someone, but, like, there's something about it that's interesting and curious. And I feel like that is, like, the best way to dress, where your relationship with yourself comes out in the decisions that you're making. And there's a sense that you really understand, like, why you're dressing the way you are, and it really is for you. But it's fun for other people as well to see that.
- [23:18]
A
Also the people that respond to the signals, someone who gets that, you think, oh, God, that's Exciting.
- [23:25]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [23:25]
A
That you're reading me, right?
- [23:27]
B
Yes. Yeah.
- [23:30]
A
And how about your hair? When did you decide to keep your hair so short? Because it's something that other people, like friends and family, can be quite possessive about.
- [23:41]
B
Yeah.
- [23:42]
A
Your hair. I remember when I first cut my hair off when I was 16, I think, from waist length to a crop.
- [23:51]
B
Wow.
- [23:51]
A
And I had, like. Some people were really up for. Some friends were really upset. And what was your hair like when you were. Oh, before you decided to.
- [24:02]
B
I actually had dreadlocks.
- [24:04]
A
Oh, my.
- [24:04]
B
Yeah. So it was a big deal for me to cut my hair off and. Exactly what you were saying. People were so upset at the idea of me cutting off my hair. And I mentioned it to someone and I was like, I'm thinking about, like, cutting my hair off. And she was like, you can't do that. Like, your hair defines you. And I was like, dear God. Like, that is, like. That is. Is all I need to hear to confirm that I'm doing this, because I was really worried. I was like, I don't know what the shape of my head is like. And once I've done it, obviously it'll take a really long time for my hair to grow back if I don't like it. But I spoke to my mum and she was just like, you know, like, it's just hair, and if you don't feel like it suits you, then it'll take a little while, but you can, like, grow your hair into something else. I was like, you know what? Like, I can do this. I think, like, whenever I'm feeling a little bit weird about something or, like, nervous to try something that I. Yeah. I don't know if it's. If it's something I'm gonna regret. Like, I'll go to my mom and be like, I'm thinking of doing this thing. And, like, she knows me so well, so I just feel like her reinforcing the fact that I can do this and it wouldn't be the end of the world was just like, okay, let me. Let me just try it. And so I chopped it off about 10 years ago, and I've, like, never looked back. I feel like it's the most me I could possibly look. It's so weird. And I actually have dreams sometimes where I have hair. Really? Yeah. It's really nuts. Like, I'll be, like, at exactly the same length it was before I cut it off. And it's really weird because then I wake up and I'm like, oh, I have hair. And then, like, for an instant, like, I. I feel like, oh, this is, like the old me. And then I remember that, no, like, I don't have any hair. And I get a little bit sad. But then I'm never tempted to actually try and grow it back again. Like, I don't feel like that would really, like, feel like me. Yeah, it's so weird. Like, your hair changes how you see yourself or like you may be evolving into a different version of you.
- [26:09]
A
It really does, doesn't it? You have a beautiful shaped head. So it must have been lovely to find that.
- [26:17]
B
Yeah. I mean, it was a pleasant surprise and a relief.
- [26:21]
A
Yeah, it really suits it. So beautiful. And.
- [26:24]
B
Thank you. Yeah. Sometimes I do this. I haven't done it for a little while, but I love to do a really extreme cut where I get, like, a wet shave. And so it's just like, the most kind of smooth and, like, extreme skin look you could have. And my hair grows pretty quickly, so it doesn't last for that long. But it looks insane. It's kind of like, don't I look a little bit like an alien? I feel. And I once was on the tube and I saw a woman who had her hair cut the same way, and I was taken aback, so I was like, wow, that's what I look like. There's something shocking about seeing yourself reflected in someone else, because I. Not many people here have their hair cut short, so whenever I encounter another black woman, specifically with their haircut the same length as mine or, like, even shorter, I'm like, I don't know. It's like a reckon. A moment of reckoning. I'm like, oh, wow. Like, that's how I look to the world. And it can be a bit of, like, a. A jolt for some reason. And then I'm like, wow. Yeah, I don't know.
- [27:29]
A
That's great. And I love it. Anyway, thanks, your new fan. And also you. You told me that you believe in God and that you've got something inside you that makes you not able to be silent. And what is that?
- [27:47]
B
I think, like, some of what I was saying earlier about this sense of intuition and, like, direction that I feel in life, it just comes from this place of having felt like, as a child that I was always, like, surrounded by love. And, like, it was, like, a thing I couldn't really explain, but I just understood it as God. And, yeah, like, it gave me a sense of, I suppose, like, belonging, but also, like, awareness of, like, my life being part of a bigger whole. And I don't know, I Feel like that is kind of how I see what I do as an artist or how I see myself as a person, I'm like, everything I do is kind of in service of a bigger picture. And, like, that is. It means that, like, I always have to honor that in the way that I live. And, like, the way I decide to work or how I make decisions about what I want to do, it can be hard. But it's also, like, the most amazing thing ever because it means I have this. This point that I can always return to of knowing, like, why I'm doing what I'm doing and, like, how I want to try to behave in, you know, relation to others and, like, how I want to exist in the world. And it gives me this, like, compass. So, like, no matter how much I might struggle with things I encounter or when I go through periods of confusion about maybe, like, what I'm doing in my practice or, you know, like, things you might encounter in life, there's always this thing that I come back to that keeps me centered. And, yeah, it's an incredible way to live because it's both challenging and, like, a blessing. And, yeah, it just creates this balance for me that I think is really important and integral to how I managed to, like, survive life.
- [29:55]
A
I mean, it's so unusual to hear a young person say, I believe in God. And it's so interesting to hear how you talk about it. And you do have this. This kind of calm feeling of conviction and certainty about you that's very winning and. And, yeah, it's very impressive.
- [30:19]
B
And thank you. Yeah, it just alleviates a lot of maybe a lot of things that maybe I would doubt about myself because I feel like I'm being guided. And so, yeah, it's a huge part of, like, how I. How I live.
- [30:34]
A
Because you walked away from top representation and with Taddeus Ropak, which is one of the best galleries in the world. And what. Why did you decide to do that? It's very un. It's kind of unusual. Everyone's trying to get a gallery in. And it's interesting that you chosen to act independently.
- [30:57]
B
Yeah, I suppose I was always a little bit resistant to having representation because I just wanted to figure things out in a way where I could make things in a way that reflected maybe my own inherent ways of working. But I also didn't know a lot about the art world and felt very green and kind of naive about maybe the more career element of what I was trying to do because, you know, like, I all I wanted to do was make work like that very innocent thing I felt as a child. And like the decision I made to pursue art like that is different to maybe practicing as an artist within the context of like an art market or the art will being an industry. So joining a gallery just provided this support that I think I needed. Although I was aware that I wanted to work in a way that maybe didn't reflect the way things kind of are structured within a gallery system. And so, yeah, I managed to accomplish some incredible things in my time with today's and was really proud of the work that we did together. It was really meaningful. But there was this thing within me still that felt like there was maybe a different way for me to. To practice being an artist. And I wanted to give myself the opportunity to do that. And so the decision to. To leave was really just about giving me the space to explore this other, you know, like, pull I had towards the way maybe I might be able to work and taking more time around, like, projects and taking time off. I'm inherently, like, pretty lazy as a person. It's weird. I have these like, extremes. I mean, we're very lazy or I work obsessively. And the lazy part of me was just like, I think like, we need to take over. And I was like, yeah, I agree. So I was like, if I'm not represented, then I can lean into some of the things that a really important outside of just producing, where it's like you're living and you're just experiencing life and you're absorbing things and yeah, you're just letting a different pace guide you. Yeah, that's what I had before I had representation and also before I went went to school. Like, when you're at uni, you're really kind of in this context of engaging all the time and speaking about your work and other people's work and like making things and questioning things and trying to be critically eng. But I also think it's important to have things outside of that where your relationships with people inform how you work and the things you see in the world inform how you work. And I don't know, like, just the practice of living is like, really important, I think. So I just wanted to experience a period of that. And so that's kind of what I'm entering into now. So I'm excited to see what will happen and like, how it will change what I make and my relationship to the things that I do.
- [34:29]
A
I mean, he's such a nice man. Tede Swarovak isn't He. It must have been really hard. And you also have made an opera, and you said that you'd never even been to an opera, but you decided to make one. And how did you know that?
- [34:47]
B
I mean, it's probably the stuff that was coming out of my years of playing, you know, classical music as a child at music school and playing in orchestras. And. I don't know. Also, like, after the karaoke, I was like, oh, that was amazing. Like, what's the most extreme version of this? Like, how can you turn the karaoke into, like, a more intense experience? And I was like, oh, like an opera. Like, that's the most, like, ramped up version of karaoke. And so I was like, well, then I'll make an opera. It just. I don't know. I don't know the way my brain works. I just have these very, like, simple moments of, like, oh, what? Like, how do you feel about this? And then I think about it, and then I reach this maybe slight, slightly confusing, but also very clear level of understanding. And then I'm like, oh, well, then we'll just do that. And so that's really why I felt like I could attempt to make something that I'd never experienced myself, because it came from a place of understanding what the. Like, what the karaoke did for me and how incredible of an experience that was. And I was like, okay, well, I can trust myself then to find my way through the process of making an opera. And I knew that it would be collaborative as well, so I wouldn't be by myself in that process. And I got commissioned by the Robertson Institute of Art to make that work. And so I had this whole team of people around me who really, like, mentored me and guided me through the process of, you know, how to make something. And they were really rigorous in questioning me about, like, why I wanted to make an opera as well. Like, it wasn't this whimsical thing.
- [36:40]
A
Yeah.
- [36:41]
B
And so there was all this. This intention and thoughtfulness that went into it. And then I carried that into the project in terms of how I found the people I collaborated with. And so, like, the central purpose of the work was that everyone was aligned and knew that they had ownership over the work that we were making, but also they had to pour themselves into it. Like, I have this thing where I am so committed to what I do that I sort of demand the same from other people. And something about classical music is like, the way that people are trained is like they can show up, rehearse for a few days, and then perform. But I was like, that's not the relationship that I want people to have to this. Like, they have to really come with a desire to invest themselves emotionally and spiritually into the work, because otherwise that's not going to be felt by an audience when they come. And the story that we're telling is about, like, self care and, like, prioritizing a relationship with your soul as a way to care for yourself and to build bridges within yourself of restoration and in the context of a black woman doing that in a world that is maybe not designed for her to be able to care for herself in that way. So I was like, people really need to understand the work and want to participate because it resonates with them in a way that feels authentic and, like, expansive. And so I was so, so lucky with all of the people that got involved, like the performers, my composer Joseph and Victoria, the poet I wrote the libretto with, and the RIA team. Like, everyone really connected to that. And it made my job of, like, leading really, really pleasurable, but also really humbling as well, because I've never worked with a creative team before, so I was kind of nervous. But it was the literal dream. And then the opera, it was just like. I'm like, wow, we made an opera. Like, how iconic. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, it was just amazing.
- [38:52]
A
I watched some on YouTube and it was amazing, and it was so full of feeling. And, yeah, there was. And your part was so interesting because it was, like, part Greek chorus, part emcee, and it was just so great the way you drove it. And then the. The singer.
- [39:13]
B
Oh, Gwen.
- [39:14]
A
God, her voice, I mean, it was just so moving.
- [39:17]
B
And I know we were really lucky, like, Roxanne and friends of her own. Like, I sort of contacted her last minute, and I was like, you know, we don't have any time really left to think about costume, but, like, would you be willing maybe to contribute something? Because we'd focus so much on the music, and it's kind of nuts. Like, I didn't hear the opera being performed in full until the week it was being performed. So there were all these things I just had to trust would fall into place. Like, it's so different to how I work in the studio, where I have an impulse, I react, I make a mark on the canvas, and then I respond to that. And it's just a cycle of me going towards the work and coming back and making decisions, and it's like a little. I don't know, it's like a. A dance of some Sort. But with this project, it was like there were so many people involved. I really had to. I had to learn how to be patient with, like, the process of listening and, like, talking with people and testing things and, I don't know, just having to, like, trust that whatever we made would be exactly what it needed to be without being able to see it in its fullness.
- [40:34]
A
Yeah.
- [40:35]
B
And Roxanne was, like, part of that process because she only really had, like, a month to. To put something together for us. And again, I was like, I don't know, like, how we're going to figure this out, and she hasn't heard the music and, you know, but it's something that she understood what we were trying to do. And I knew that, you know, the way I wanted the clothes to move or, like, frame Gwen's body and the singers and the way she uses color was, like, a really brilliant, like, accompaniment to what we'd made. And so she trusted me and I trusted her. And then we had this fantastic, I don't know, experience where what she gave us was, like, the most beautiful accent to everything. And there is this moment where Gwen enters the church and, like, what she's wearing becomes, like, such a significant part of her entrance. And the sound of, like, the dress, like, running along, like, the floor.
- [41:35]
A
Yeah.
- [41:35]
B
And with her voice, I don't know, it was just. Yeah. The whole thing was magical.
- [41:40]
A
Yeah. I love the way Roxanne uses color. It's just always like she's invented color. It's just so. I don't know how she does it, because every season I'm looking for, like, I. A color palette, and I feel like, well, I've used up every color under the sun, and then suddenly you find another one.
- [42:01]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [42:02]
A
You've talked about red being your favorite color.
- [42:05]
B
Yes, yes.
- [42:06]
A
Colors describing emotions. And what. What does red describe for you?
- [42:11]
B
Oh, everything. Yeah. It's, like, aliveness.
- [42:17]
A
Yeah.
- [42:17]
B
And it's. I don't know, like, threat and desire and purging and. I don't know, it's like, all of these different processes and, like, cycles that happen in life that fluctuate at different moments, depending on, like, where you are within yourself. And it embodies, like, so many different things for me. I think it's maybe one of the only colors that covers so many different, like, emotional states for me personally. And so. Yeah. And it's just, like, warmth. I don't know. It's like, it just radiates in this way that I really respond to. And it's weird, though. Because I don't really wear red.
- [43:08]
A
I was, I was thinking that actually. It's funny how you can love a color and. And then you don't want it on you necessarily.
- [43:15]
B
But.
- [43:16]
A
Yeah, it's just somehow overwhelming or too much or. I see, you know, the way you use it. And the thing of it being about desire and drawing towards and threat is. Is such a good description of something that matters so much because caring about things deeply is also such a risk, isn't it?
- [43:38]
B
Yeah. It's incredible to be struck by something so much that something within you moves. And I have that with color and it's. I don't know, I just feel like really special and like privileged to have that relationship with color because it's, it's really enlivening and. I don't know. Like, I just. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know what my life would be without that because I know not everyone cares about color or, or people feel intimidated by it, but I just find it the most like, phenomenal thing. Like, I find color terrifying and also sublime.
- [44:21]
A
Gosh, that's so good. Yeah, I totally agree. And you've got a big show opening at the Dulwich Picture Gallery soon, in June.
- [44:31]
B
Yeah.
- [44:32]
A
And then you're taking a year off to grow vegetables and look for a husband. And looking for a husband.
- [44:40]
B
I cannot wait.
- [44:42]
A
That's such a radically modern and an old fashioned plan. And who. How is this husband in your projection?
- [44:51]
B
I just, I don't know, I'm like, I kind of just want space for maybe I want space to be surprised, you know? Like, I think I've had so much stuff on recently that my whole world has revolved around work and it's been amazing, but I also feel like it's prevented me from being able to explore other parts of my life and things that are actually important. And so the idea of having the time to prioritize relationships, not even just like in terms of a partner, but like friendships and family and. Yeah, like me being able to grow things, like, that's incredible. Like having a relationship with the earth and worms. And there is no greater feeling than growing something from a seed to a plant and then eating the fruit that is produced from that plant and then being able to give the things that you make to other people because you have so many of them. Like, I'm growing some flowers for my friend at the moment. I was like, I've got too many dahlias. So like, do you want some? And she was like, yeah, 100. So like I dug up the tubers and I put them in some pots, and, like, they've sprouted, so I'm, like, gonna give her some, like, flowers, and I'm like, isn't that. Isn't that, like, a lush way live your life? Like, so, you know, you grow things for yourself and others, and it just incredibly, like, transforms, like, the. The way you structure your. Your life. Everything becomes more slow and luxurious, but in, like, a really different way to the luxury of maybe engaging with, like, the world of making and, like, exhibiting. It's just a different type of satisfaction that is. Yeah. Something I want to kind of, like, pour into for a while.
- [46:56]
A
Sounds amazing. All about germination.
- [46:59]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Growing stuff. It's. It's part of, I suppose, like, my life in a way, because of what I do in the studio. Like, I'm always trying to start to make something from maybe, like, seemingly nothing, but actually that I'm drawing from, like, what I have within me and what I have within me consciously and, like, subconsciously and. Yeah. Like, how that births something. And then I sort of, like, just. I don't know, like, I'm able to build things around that, and then I get to look at them and then share them with people and people can respond to them, and then that moment dies and then I start again. So it's kind of like mirroring maybe the way that I exist as an artist. I never really thought about that before.
- [47:48]
A
It was great. I think it's really radical to. To apply that to meeting your future husband and making that space and bringing all this kind of. This cycle of. Of. Of loving really into. Into being and.
- [48:06]
B
Yeah.
- [48:06]
A
And if you fancy someone and don't like something they're wearing, does it kill your attraction?
- [48:13]
B
Do you know what? It doesn't. I suppose I'm more confused by it than anything. I'm like, why have they decided to put that together that way? Or, like, how have they done that? But I don't find it off putting. Like, I won't reject someone based on, like, a bad outfit, but I'll be maybe confused and then, like, curious about it and sometimes amused as well. Like, sometimes it's really funny how little people care about clothes or care about how they look. Like, in a way, it's kind of incredible. But I'm always more attracted to someone if I like the way that they dress, because I think it's. Yeah. It tells you a little bit about them as a person in a really subtle way.
- [49:05]
A
Yeah.
- [49:05]
B
Without you knowing anything about them, you know, so it's a good point, actually, that.
- [49:12]
A
Because I like it when people don't even notice what they're wearing. The thing that's always a bit more alarming is when it's something very calculated and then it's like, how am I going to deal with that? But, yeah, when it's good, it's a real. It's a real joy. It's a bonding thing. And it is you. Yeah. Because you also. You talked about your love of cartoons. And I love. I've always loved cartoons, and they're very clear about their values in cartoons and also about what they wear. And I always liked the sort of Dennis the Menace. And they had this thing and they had this attitude. I wonder which ones you're drawn to.
- [49:55]
B
Oh, gosh. Yeah, I love. Oh, I love Looney Tunes. And then probably, like, as I got. I mean. I mean, I loved anything at Cartoon Network made. But if I think about, like, some of the Nickelodeon stuff I was into, like, hey, Arnold. And, you know, like, he would always wear. I mean, all cartoon characters always wear the same outfits, but like Helga with her pink dress and white T shirt underneath and the bow. And then, like, her really aggressive mono brow. And then Gerald with, like, his high top and, like, his red, like, like jersey top. And like, Arnold with the, like, the tiny little cap in the middle of his head. Like, how absurd is that? But, like, it's just. You're right, like, this idea that there are all these codes, and they can be about gender or about personality or, I don't know, like, class. And it's kind of woven into the way someone dresses themselves, either intentionally or unintentionally. Like, there are all these messages and signals. It's kind of like an animal thing, isn't it? Like, there's a. Like a. Like, I don't know, like a pheromone thing or like a, like, cryptic coding that's happening that you pick up on and you even respond to it, or you don't. But either way, like, it's something that you start to try and decipher and help as a way to help you understand the person, like, before you.
- [51:23]
A
Yeah, it's true about that code thing. And, you know, it's like a. It's a container in some kind of way, isn't it? And I read that you said about your time at art school that I was. You said I was trying to center my experience as a black woman in a space that was predominantly white and ultimately not designed for me to thrive. And have you made it Possible for yourself to thrive because you are a thriver. I mean, abundantly so.
- [51:55]
B
Do you know what? It's my Aries energy. Aries, yeah, me too. I feel like 100. I just have, like. I don't know why, but I have such a. Like, a compulsion for, like, propelling myself through whatever situation I'm in, whether it be bad or good. Yeah. When I was at school, I just felt quite isolated, like, emotionally and mentally. I think I was trying to. It was the first time I was really making work about my experience, like, my lived experience. And so obviously that includes me, you know, thinking about how my race and gender is part of that. But I was doing that or trying to do that through abstract painting, languages. And so I was like, oh, God, like, how do I bring these things together and can I? And should I be trying to do that? And so it was a period of me really grappling with myself, and maybe it was, like, more intense because, you know, there weren't loads of other black students in the school. And so I didn't really feel like I had a place to go to maybe where I could understand myself amongst others. And it's quite isolating if you don't have opportunities to, I don't know, like, learn about who you are in community with other people. Like, we're social beings, aren't we? And so when there aren't spaces for you to. To discover who you are with people who are, like, similar to you or who can even. Even if they're not, like, who can understand something about you and the specificity of. Of your experience, like, it. It kind of hinders your opportunity to, like. To maybe delve a little bit deeper or, like, confront difficult things or experiences you might have. So, yeah, I don't know. I was just going through a period of working my way through that. And then when I left school, I felt like. I don't know, I'd kind of gone through this period of maybe, like, shedding a lot of things. And, like, I came out with a lot more clarity about the way I wanted to make things. And I developed this language, and it was like the very sort of beginning of. It was like a nucleus that I'd formed when I was at school. But it was enough for me to then, like, go, like, above and beyond in, like, just allowing myself to, like, pour out all of this stuff that I had stored up, but I didn't know. And that was sort of the birth of me painting, like, the way that I paint now. And, yeah, it was a really Difficult experience, but I think a necessary one. It was kind of like, I don't know, like, the. The nexus for me, like, being where I am. Sometimes you have to experience, like, really challenging things in order to get to a point where that then becomes part of a transformation or, like, a rejuvenation.
- [55:12]
A
You featured in a Loewe campaign last year for Jonathan Anderson, who's a big art lover. And how was it to be at the center of attention but not the author of it?
- [55:24]
B
Oh, do you know what? I loved it because it really felt like I was stepping into someone else's world. And I was so intrigued by the whole thing. And so I. I mean, I said yes because I thought, like, this is such a bizarre thing to do, but also, like, how incredible. And I love clothes, and I love the images that are made to try and, like, create a context for, like, the designs that someone's come up with, but also to create, like, this imaginative world around them and, like, this narrative. Like, the idea that someone can, I don't know, like, care so much that they think about the entire experience of how someone can encounter something that they've made through the visual language and for the storytelling, even through, like, maybe, like, the music that's used, you know, when it comes to shows and things like that. So, yeah, I was like, I really want to see what it's like to be part of that experience and to be in the role of helping to tell that story. And I'd never done anything like it before as well. And I'm always intrigued by new experiences, and, like, I'm up for things.
- [56:41]
A
So it was a great picture. I mean, you just look fantastic, and it looks so real. You look like just. You inhabited those clothes. They were. They seem like you just found them and they suited you.
- [56:55]
B
Yeah, like, I live in them. It was so cool. It's kind of amazing, as well, like, to see how they, like, picked what I was gonna wear and then how they decided to shoot it, like, where I was, like. I don't know. Like, we shot in this house that was, like, from, I don't know, like, the 60s or something. And it had this really old patterned carpet and, like, textured, like, wallpaper. And then on the back of this, like, lorry with, like, all this, like, furniture shoved in in this higgledy, piggledy way. And Jurgen was so clear about the way he wanted me to sit or stand, and he took the pictures so quickly, it was insane. I was kind of prepared to be, I don't know, on set for Hours, just like hanging around and waiting or taking tons and tons of photos, but it wasn't like that at all. And there was just this speed and brevity to the moment that was incredible. And it was really, really amazing. And I was like, wow, he knows exact exactly what he wants. And then it made me feel really reassured that I didn't really have to worry about what I was doing because he was so responsive to me in a way where he knew what he wanted from me. So I just enjoyed the whole thing. It was like nothing I've ever experienced before. It was amazing.
- [58:23]
A
That's Jurgen Teller, right?
- [58:24]
B
Yeah.
- [58:26]
A
Yeah.
- [58:27]
B
I felt like it was a brilliant thing to encounter.
- [58:31]
A
And will you miss not making art for a whole year? How will you cope with the thing that describes you, your identity as a maker?
- [58:40]
B
Yeah, 100% not. No. I relish any time to not make things. But having said that, I do feel like I get this little itch after I take time off. So I think instead of it being me not making anything for a whole year, it's just like a year of me not making anything for a show or for like, end. An expected end result. Like, if I end up making things, it will just be me playing and experimenting and just trying stuff. Like, I think it's good that I have the opportunity to muck about a little bit. And yeah, I think failure is a really important part of a creative process and I don't feel like I've really given myself enough time to, like, try something that I might fail at. And I think that's important. So, yeah.
- [59:38]
A
God, you are like Yoda. You just. This is so good.
- [59:44]
B
It's just me. My profound thoughts about making.
- [59:49]
A
It's very. Because the way you turn it around to. I'm not going to not work for a year, but you're going to try something for a year. And it's really. It's wonderful, especially with this intense speeding up of. And this attachment to success and what that looks like. But everything you have described is about this kind of cycle and that it continues and. And it's. It's just been so wonderful to hear. Hear your thoughts and thank you. Listen to you and talk to you and thank you so much, Rachel, for being on Fashion Neurosis.
- [60:26]
B
Thank you for having me.