Fashion Neurosis with Sam McKnight

Summary

Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud: Episode Featuring a Renowned Hairdresser

Release Date: May 6, 2025

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Introduction

In this captivating episode of Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud, Bella engages in a profound conversation with a top hairdresser who has been a luminary in the fashion industry for over five decades. Together, they delve deep into the intricate relationship between fashion, identity, and personal evolution, offering listeners invaluable insights into the transformative power of style.

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Guest’s Journey: From Mining Village to Fashion Icon

The guest begins by sharing her humble beginnings in New Cumnock, a mining village in southwest Scotland. Raised in a working-class family, she recounts her early experiences and the pivotal moment when she decided to pursue hairdressing over a career in education.

[02:04] Guest: "I gravitated towards the hairdressing salon because people were fun, and that was the beginning of my kind of life in hair."

This decision marked the start of a 50-year-long illustrious career in the fashion industry, highlighting her resilience and passion for creativity.

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Evolution of Fashion and Personal Style

The conversation transitions to the evolution of fashion from the 1970s to the present day. The guest reflects on the shifting trends—from platform soles and glam rock to Americana and disco—and how these changes influenced her personal style and professional work.

[05:22] Guest: "By '75, we were turning towards Americana. It was becoming more... we were coming out of that kind of glam rock of the early '70s into the Americana and kind of disco of the mid-'70s."

She also shares nostalgic anecdotes about her obsession with platform shoes, emphasizing the profound impact of fashion trends on personal and professional identity.

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The Symbiotic Relationship Between Music and Fashion

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the interconnectedness of music and fashion. The guest reminisces about her early influences—from The Beatles and T. Rex to David Bowie—and how these musical icons shaped her approach to fashion and style.

[08:05] Guest: "We idolize them and... you think, oh, there's someone that I can see a bit of me in. And I think that's a really sort of quite an intoxicating realization when you're a teenager."

This synergy between music and fashion fueled her passion and creativity, allowing her to experiment with identity through style.

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Working with Legendary Figures: Princess Diana and Kate Moss

One of the episode's highlights is the guest's experience working with Princess Diana. She recounts their first meeting and the pivotal haircut that signaled Diana's transformation.

[16:21] Guest: "We cut her hair off there and then after the shoot, and then I spent the next seven years looking after her hair."

This transformative moment not only impacted Diana's public image but also underscored the profound influence a hairdresser can have on a client's identity.

Similarly, her collaboration with Kate Moss is explored, illustrating the magnetic chemistry and creative synergy that elevated their work to iconic status.

[26:05] Guest: "She's got a very good eye. She... She's cut my hair before. She got the clippers to my hair."

These experiences highlight the guest's exceptional ability to connect with clients, understanding their desires and facilitating their personal transformations.

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Navigating Challenges: Credit and Recognition in the Fashion Industry

The conversation shifts to the challenges faced by creatives in the fashion industry, particularly regarding credit and recognition. The guest passionately discusses the diminishing acknowledgment of hairdressers and makeup artists in the digital age.

[58:56] Guest: "I thought... people weren't giving credit to the beauty teams... I started to see it's happening a lot. So I set about trying to find a way to form a union."

Her efforts to establish a union for fashion hairdressers aim to safeguard the rights and recognition of behind-the-scenes professionals, ensuring they receive the credit they deserve.

[60:45] Guest: "I'm just speaking up for people who have no voice."

This advocacy underscores her commitment to fostering a more equitable and respectful environment within the fashion realm.

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Embracing Change: Launching a Hair Care Line and Personal Growth

At 62 years old, the guest shares her bold venture into launching a line of hair care products, marking a significant shift from her traditional role. This move reflects her continuous desire to push boundaries and embrace new challenges.

[44:28] Guest: "I started to look at this as an opportunity... I wanted to have new experiences, I want to have new adventures."

Additionally, she discusses her personal pursuits outside of hairdressing, such as gardening and adventure holidays, which provide her with peace, hope, and a sense of rejuvenation.

[52:24] Guest: "It's a solitary hobby... it's almost meditative. It brings hope, really, that something will always be coming through."

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The Power of Collaboration and Teamwork

Throughout her career, the guest emphasizes the importance of collaboration and teamwork in creating stunning fashion looks. Reflecting on her time with iconic designers like Vivian Westwood, Carl Lagerfeld, and Dries Van Noten, she illustrates how collective creativity leads to extraordinary results.

[34:17] Guest: "It only works if everyone's doing their thing."

Her experiences working on Vivian Westwood's avant-garde shows and Carl Lagerfeld's illustrious projects demonstrate her ability to thrive in dynamic, high-pressure environments while maintaining creative excellence.

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Legacy and Future Endeavors

As the episode draws to a close, the guest reflects on her legacy and her aspirations for the future. She expresses a desire to continue innovating and empowering others in the fashion industry, ensuring the craft of hairdressing remains celebrated and respected.

[61:26] Guest: "I got away with it."

Her unwavering commitment to the art of hairdressing and her proactive stance in advocating for industry changes position her as a trailblazer, inspiring future generations to uphold the integrity and creativity of fashion.

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Conclusion

This episode of Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud offers an intimate glimpse into the life of a legendary hairdresser whose influence permeates the fashion world. Through heartfelt anecdotes, insightful discussions, and a passionate advocacy for recognition, the guest illustrates the profound impact of fashion on personal identity and societal norms. Listeners are left with a deeper appreciation for the artistry behind the scenes and the enduring power of style as a means of self-expression.

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Notable Quotes:

• Guest on Fashion and Identity:
  “We idolize them and... you think, oh, there's someone that I can see a bit of me in. And I think that's a really sort of quite an intoxicating realization when you're a teenager.”
  [08:57]

• Guest on Trust in Client Relationships:
  “I have to really get the message that they really mean it, that it isn't a whim...”
  [15:51]

• Guest on Modern Hair:
  “I think it's something that makes you feel really good about yourself. It almost doesn't matter what it looks like.”
  [22:34]

• Guest on Advocacy for Credit:
  “I'm just speaking up for people who have no voice.”
  [60:45]

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the episode, offering a rich narrative that highlights the guest's remarkable journey, her contributions to fashion, and her unwavering dedication to elevating the craft of hairdressing.

Transcript

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[Sam McKnight]

Hi, come in. Welcome to fashion neurosis. Sam McKnight.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Thank you. Lovely to be here.

[Sam McKnight]

Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Oh, I'm wearing a Fred Perry top, of which I have probably hundreds. And it's quite warm outside, so I into the first short sleeves of the summer and I wanted to be comfortable lying down on the couch and not wear anything too bulky. And I'm wearing my lovely comfortable Uniqlo sweatpants, which is a kind of uniform for me.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah, I was eyeing those up, actually. They're a very elegant shape, I guess.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

They're great, aren't they?

[Sam McKnight]

They're great.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

And they're about 30 quid or something, so, yeah, I'm gonna get some.

[Sam McKnight]

How did you go from growing up in a mining town in Scotland to becoming the top hairdresser in the fashion industry for maybe 40 years, is that right?

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Well, it's actually 50 years this year. Yeah, this is my 50th year of being a hairdresser.

[Sam McKnight]

Incredible.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

I know. I just said it out loud. I went to. I'm from a mining village in the southwest of Scotland called New Cumnock. It's like a little council estate dropped into the beautiful green hills of southwest Scotland. I went to teacher training college when I was 17 or 18 and it was all very exciting. I was going on to further education and it was at that time when, when university courses and further education started to be open to you know, children, teenagers of all classes. Before, it really had only been the kind of select few that. That got to university. But things were changing. It was the early 70s and I was the first person in my family to go to university. I first went. I did two years of teacher training, college first, because that was close to my home, and then the next two years were going to be at university in Glasgow. But by the end of year two, I had had enough. I was fed up being in the education system. I was bored. I felt like I wasn't really learning anything. I was just learning to pass exams and I wasn't very good at exams and I knew I wasn't going to do well and I had done really well at always. This was a big change for me, to start not enjoying what I was doing. So I started to. My family didn't have any money. My dad's a coal miner and my mum worked in the co op. And so I always had jobs. I did window cleaning, I worked at a sock factory, I worked in a jeans factory. I did all kinds of things to get pocket money, basically, during the school holidays, in the evenings. And I had an odd job working for some friends who owned a hairdressing salon or a few hairdressing salons. They owned a disco, they had a burger bar. It was early 70s. Suddenly I gravitated towards the hairdressing salon, I guess, because people were fun and that was the beginning of my kind of life in hair.

[Sam McKnight]

Because hair salons in the early days, they were like hot houses for young people trying to connect with fashion. And they were such a big. It was such a big deal, the local hair salon and that changing. And what were people wearing then? And what did you wear when you went into work?

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

I think back then it was. I think by the time I started doing odd jobs in the salon, I had been wearing huge platform soles. I mean, I'm talking huge platform soles for Rob. I think that went on for about three or four years in the early 70s.

[Sam McKnight]

So.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Good. By 75, we were turning towards Americana. It was becoming more. I remember having a Catherine Hamnet jacket that I bought in Miss Selfridge. It was a girl's jacket, but it was a safari jacket, kind of army jacket, basically. And I remember buying a pair of Smith's jeans, Smith's sort of painter's jeans. I think they were red. Yeah, they probably were red. They were red, I think. So we were heading into bomber jackets in Americana by then, but we were coming out of that kind of glam rock of the early 70s into the Americana and kind of disco of the mid-70s. And I had discovered discos a couple of years earlier and I discovered the Philadelphia sound, you know, sort of black American music, which I'm still addicted to to this day.

[Sam McKnight]

God, those platform shoes were such a thing. I remember going to a jumble sale and buying these really high platforms because my mum wouldn't let me wear anything apart from desert boots. And they were. I had size 4ft and these shoes were size 8. And I'd carry them in a bag and put them on and they were really ugly and I knew it, but it was such a. I'll never forget them. I mean, this is so long ago now and they just. They had so much gravitas and it was such a thing, wasn't it?

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

It was. And I remember my prize pair were black silver, black silver quadruple sole with a wooden stack heel and they were lace ups. And I remember they were 26 pounds. Now. I think my mom and dad probably would have been horrified if they thought I'd spent three pounds on them. So I never told anyone how much they were. Luckily, it was my own money because I earned my own money and it was the most expensive thing. I mean, it was crazy. It's probably a thousand pounds in today's money. It was crazy. But I loved those shoes.

[Sam McKnight]

God, did you have an obsession about anything, any particular clothes when you were a child that you just felt you had to have?

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

In the 60s and 70s, from when we're children even now, we like our fashion, right. And we like our tribes and we like to belong to this one or that one. And I was a Beatles fan when I was a kid, and then I was a T. Rex fan. And then, of course, like everyone in my genre generation, we discovered David Bowie. So everything was about copying David Bowie. I had a very, very happy association with fashion since a very young age.

[Sam McKnight]

God, that's so nice.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Because fashion and music is. Is intrinsically linked or it was.

[Sam McKnight]

No, it was maybe more than it is now, isn't it?

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Yeah.

[Sam McKnight]

We look to those. Those pop stars and rock stars for. For an image and how to sort of start experimenting with identity.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Well, we idolize them and we. You identify with someone. I think it's. It's deeper than images and it's an identification. You think, oh, there's someone that I can see a bit of me in. And I think that's a really sort of quite an intoxicating realization when you're a teenager.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah, yeah, I know. I went To a school, when you say you had a happy association with fashion. I went to a Steiner school where fashion was just regarded with absolute sort of contempt and bemused, patronizing. So, of course, it was so difficult to be interested because you felt absurd, you know? And then this girl came into my class when we were 12, I think, who come from London, called Rusty, and she was into David Bowie and she had these great clothes and she was so pretty and she had, like, dyed her hair and everything, and we just couldn't believe it. And she was so fantastic that we sort of. It was like a spell had been broken. We woke up and was like, oh, my God, that's what we're missing. We. We need to be part of life. And Rusty's showing the way and. And she became my best friend. And she was. Yeah, she. The whole David Bowie. She sort of introduced me to David Bowie and he seems to have had such a big influence on anyone who's interested in fashion.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Well, that music and fashion mix is really. It's quite a heady mix, isn't it? It's incredibly. It's inviting and intoxicating and makes you feel great.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

And it stays with you. It never leaves. I mean, every time I hear Life on Mars, I'm transported.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah, I know. Same here. It's that same pleasure that woke up when I heard those songs is right there waiting. And it's just. It's like a balm. It's better than any antidepressant. In fact, I remember a psychiatrist telling me that they can always spot when something's up if someone changes their hair. And I thought that was so interesting. And can you see someone's insecurity in how they're wearing their hair?

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

I think I see insecurity in not so much how they're wearing their hair, but how they're not wearing their hair. I think people use their hair. In my experience, I see people using their hair as. In many different ways. Some people use it as a shield. Well, we all do. We use it as a shield or as armor. I mean, it can be two very opposite things, or as. To make a statement, I think people use it. It's a useful tool you have. It's a very. I mean, it does. It does tell a lot of stories. I think a lot of people. And a lot of people don't use their hair, don't know the power of their hair, and they don't use it at all. And that makes me sad.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah. How. In what way do they. Can you give an Example, I think.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

A lot of people get stuck in not doing anything with their hair. And I think I've worked with a lot of amazing people. And I remember when I. I did a couple of years with Lady Gaga about 10 years ago, when she was kind of first on the radar. And I remember at the time thinking, wow, this woman completely uses her hair in a way that I have never seen anyone use it before. Because she would just go from wig to wig to wig six times a day and outfits changing, changing, changing. Because she tapped into the power of the Internet and the social media, the power of social media and the power of sending out all those different images multiple times a day because she saw how things had changed and this monster of social media needed to be fed. And I think she used the word monster very well as well. And I thought that was very, very clever of her to do that.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah, she did it with a kind of freedom as well. It didn't seem.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Well, she meant it. It came from her heart. It was something that she felt. And every look was really thought through. It wasn't. Nothing was an afterthought.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah. It was very like performance art almost.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

It was performance art. And I think she changed. She raised the bar and she changed the way other artists had to perform from then on.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

It wasn't enough just to have one look and stay with it.

[Sam McKnight]

Gosh, she really did raise her heart. Yeah. Also, people say hairdressers receive people's secrets. And how do you reinvent someone's identity? What's the first clue to getting in there?

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

I think for me it's about, well, the relationship with your hair and a client or a celebrity or whoever, whoever's hair you do, it has to be based on trust. And I think if someone wants a dramatic change, I have to really get the message that they really mean it, that it isn't a whim, that. Or it can be a whim sometimes, but they. They mean it, they really want it. They're not going to regret it, you know, so there has to be a conversation, and I think I have to understand why they're doing something. The reason, because your hair, once it's gone, it's gone, it's not coming back, you know, if you're going to do a haircut. So. And I think you pick up signals so you quickly understand, yeah, this person really wants to do this. And sometimes I go, you. You'll have the conversation. You don't really want to do this, do you? You just want to talk about it and you Realize that that's the case.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

So it's, It's. It's just something you pick up with experience.

[Sam McKnight]

But you must have an incredible sixth sense of reading someone because, you know, this kind of ability to know when someone wants you to take charge of them. Like, I mean, that sounds like the thing that happened with Princess Diana when she kind of invited you to suggest changing her image and you just did it.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Well, I'm gonna contradict myself here, because that was the first time I'd ever met her. We did the haircut, and I'd only met her for a couple of hours. Didn't know anything about her at all, apart from what I dread. But I didn't read much. Cause I wasn't really paying much attention. And it was 1990, we were on a shoot doing portraits of the young royals for Vogue. And she was the last person on the shoot. And she came into the studio, charmed us all immediately because she was just. She was incredibly charming and just killed us all with a smile. Immediately disarmed us all. And we were all putty in her hands. And we had a couple of hours of shooting and we laughed a lot. It was with Patrick de Marschelier. And Patrick's French is almost indecipherable. He's English, Sorry. Because he's French. And I was translating. I was kind of. And it was very, very funny, as it always was. And we did some gorgeous images. One of her sitting on the floor. It was the first time she had been photographed in such a kind of relaxed, less stuffy, less royal portraiture. Patrick had her on the floor laughing. And I've got that picture now as a fridge magnet, I found.

[Sam McKnight]

Oh my.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Which I love. So she's on my face. And I made her hair look short. And after the shoot, because she had the big fluffy perm of the 80s, which was know very of. Of that time. But this was 1990, things had changed. And I said, she. She said, do what you want to do. So I made her hair look as if it was short with her tiara. And at the end of the shoot, she said, what would you do if I gave you free? I just said, do whatever you want. And I said, honestly, I would just cut it all off, get rid of the 80s and move into the 90s. Because we were heading into sort of the sort of minimalist power dressing of the 90s. We'd gone from the fruitery 80s. This was 1990, and we were working for Vogue. And Vogue was about the business power woman. So I didn't know anything about her background, but in retrospect, she was heading for a divorce and her life was changing, but I didn't know any of that, but I knew from the way she was talking that she wanted a change. And we cut her hair off there and then after the shoot, and then I spent the next seven years looking after her hair. Yeah, so that was a, that was a fortuitous decision.

[Sam McKnight]

How incredible. I suppose it's so interesting that she was going, you know, heading into this complete change and transformation of her life, and you came along and she realized you were a trustworthy person, that she could begin this new phase. I mean, I'm making all this up.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

But it's just, it's funny you say that, because a couple of years ago, a friend of mine sent me a recording because there was a, there'd been a documentary on tv, and they had some recordings of her speaking with her voice coach and that he had made into a documentary. And in that recording, she actually says that her life changed when I, and when I cut her hair.

[Sam McKnight]

Wow.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

And that was, honestly, that, that's almost 30 years after her death. That was the first time I had, I mean, I, I, I knew she liked her hair and she, you know, she, but, but that was the first time it really kind of deeply resonated with me of, of how much that haircut had affected her.

[Sam McKnight]

That's so moving, isn't it?

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Yeah, I, I, it's, it's, it's very, it's a, it's a, it's a powerful thing, hair. It's, it's, mustn't be underestimated.

[Sam McKnight]

But you have this ability to be with people at these key moments in their life because of how you move their identity into a place that sort of catches up with their, almost their emotional courage, that they're setting out on a new journey. And you just have this, you have this kind of instinct, and I imagine that's why you've stayed at the top of your game all this time. And when I watch you, I remember coming to a shoot that when Kate Moss was just doing Topshop and we were all in this basement, I don't know what I was doing there, but I was just hanging around and I saw her sitting there and you appeared and something completely changed. It was like a, a molecular change in the atmosphere, and she just settled and sprang to life, and it was about you and her. And then you started doing her hair, and it was fantastic. And I never forgot that. It's like I can feel it now, as I'm remembering it, how this kind of magnetic thing happened between you and. And you've worked with all the supermodels and great actresses like Nicole Kidman and Kate Blanchett and Kate Moss said you've done even more Vogue covers than she has. I think you've done 150 or something. Is.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Yeah, I think it was well over that. Oh, my God, the last counts.

[Sam McKnight]

But the thing you have, you have this way of, of always knowing what is modern. And I wondered, what does modern mean to you?

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

What does modern mean to me? It doesn't mean just one thing. I think it means what's right for that moment. Does that make sense?

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah, completely.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

I think it's. What. Because hair isn't about something that looks good. It's about something that makes you feel something. And I think, I think modern hair is something that makes you feel really good about yourself. It almost doesn't matter what it looks like. Yeah, it's something that makes you feel good about yourself. So it gives you confidence.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah, I suppose it's the whole thing about fashion is when you can find the things that work for you, you can forget about yourself.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Absolutely.

[Sam McKnight]

With hair, it's the same thing. Almost more so because you can, you can literally go out in your pajamas and your hair.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Well, I always say that with actresses and models, we're seeing each other at, you know, 6:00 in the morning when everyone is raw. So that person who sits in the chair, having just got out of bed with no makeup or hair or armor or shield, whatever you like, that character has to be built in that couple of hours where they're in your chair. So we make up hair, wardrobe. We're all there to enable that person to become the person that they want to be. Does that make sense?

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah, totally. Because I always remember Kate talking about, you know, being backstage and saying the hairdressers and the makeup artists have your back and thinking it's such a nerve wracking situation that really, you know, there's such a high level of pressure and expectation. And I wondered how do you deal with fear when it's, you know, it's on you?

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

I don't know. I think you have to work through it. It's like you have to get through it, you know, that you have to. There has to be a result at the end of the day. So you're all going to have to get through this. So I think it's about collaboration. It's about all having each other's backs. It's not just a one way street. It's about everyone working together to the same end.

[Sam McKnight]

I think you've got a touch of the Yoda though as well. You have this very calm demeanor, but it must be very hard won.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

And I try to have a calm demeanor, but I'm probably like a duck, you know, paddling furiously underneath this sort of, you know, the smile. But I like to have fun. I like to laugh a lot and I do, I guess, I guess my go to thing is to try and make people laugh, trying to diffuse a situation.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah, it's a very good technique because when you see someone else relax, you know, you're kind of, it's, it's going to be okay.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Yeah.

[Sam McKnight]

Kate Moss is rather good at cutting hair. Have you ever seen any of her handiwork?

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

I'm good. I'm not so sure she loves doing it, but I think she's brilliant. I've never had the pleasure, but I've seen the results and the jury's out on that.

[Sam McKnight]

I saw her, I didn't see her literally do it, but this, this older man with very buffon hair and the next time he looked like a hundred times better and she said, oh yeah, I thinned it out or whatever.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

She's got a very good eye, she's.

[Sam McKnight]

Got a great knack, she knows how to make people. She does look good. Yeah, Yeah. I trust her, I must say.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

I mean, she's cut my hair before. She got the clippers to my hair.

[Sam McKnight]

Really?

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Yeah.

[Sam McKnight]

I love the way she takes over, you know, it's just so relaxing. You think, oh, well, she's in charge now. And how did you deal with losing your own hair?

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

It wasn't a problem for me. It was my hair went slowly so I never really had an issue. I mean, it went over the course of 20 years. Really. I remember when I was in my late 30s, we were bleaching hair for Jenny Howarth and Jenny was a big model in the, in the 80s and we were dear friends and we were bleaching Jenny's hair and there was loads of bleach left over, so I did mine too. And I remember I had that for about a year because I knew I was about to lose it and I wouldn't be able to do it again. So that was my last hurrah with the bleached hair. And I loved it. I loved every minute of that year. It was great. And then it started to go and it was slow and it was fine. A friend of mine has recently suggested that I Get a hair transplant because they're so good these days. But I think at this stage of the game, no, thank you. Maybe if I was 20 years younger, but I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna do that now.

[Sam McKnight]

It looks good, though, because I'm fine with it.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

I'm okay with it, you know, I'm all right.

[Sam McKnight]

I like bald heads, I must say, and I like bald patches. Like that guy on White Lotus, Walton Goggins, I think, who has a much younger girlfriend in the series. And she says, you're like that other guy. He's old and he's got a bald patch. You've got a bald patch.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

And I'm not, I'm not, I'm not loving this, this series. I've, I've struggled with it.

[Sam McKnight]

It's not, I like those, those two.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Yeah, I, I, it hasn't grabbed me this series. The other two series were amazing, but this one, I kind of, I fell asleep the other night watching it. So that's a test.

[Sam McKnight]

I kind of quite like, I, I quite like that it's a little bit boring. I need that. I enjoy it, but. And you worked on many of Vivian Westwood's shows?

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

I did. I started with Vivian91, something like that. And yeah, and I worked with her.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Because she had, she was gone. I loved Vivian. I mean, it was, it was, it was a great relationship. I, we understood each other because as you know, Vivian Toon and, and she could be quite indecipherable. You know, her rants of how she wanted the hair and makeup for the shows could be. You'd kind of go at first, you go away thinking what she talking about. But after a few seasons, you kind of picked up her, her vibe, you know, and, and she knew that I wouldn't have a meltdown because quite often backstage she would be running her hands through the hair, wiping the lipstick off. Dude. And she knew that I wasn't fazed by that. So, so because I knew she knew what she was looking for. Does that make sense?

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah, it does because I was, Because I worked for her and I'd already left before you started and. Because sometimes I'd remember, I remember her making this kind of shawl thing with tons of gathered ivory silk, but it was glove lining silk, which is so fine, you pick it up and you've snagged it even with the end of your fingers. And she made this thing and you couldn't tell which way it went on or anything. And she said, I'm going to call this the mess and it was so great and it was a mess, but when it was on, it was just ravishing. And. And I wondered what kind of things she told you when she was.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Oh, there was one time she. She wanted. She showed me a drawing, a very old drawing of a man running down the stairs with his hair on fire. And that's what I'd like. So we did. We colored all these hairpieces into flames and we did this sort of flame. And she had it herself too. She, she. She would often have the hair make off of the show. So she had. Her hair was in flames and, and just before. And it was kind of. It was a difficult thing to do, time consuming thing to do, and we made it perfect. And of course, she never wanted perfection. And I should have thought that. So just before they were going on, she took her hands and she messed the whole thing up so they looked like they'd been dragged through a hedge. And. And she absolutely loved it. She absolutely loved it. So you, you know, what can you do? It was her show. Yeah, there was quite some of those amazing shows in the 90s, which went on for 40 minutes, were just incredible. They were absolutely mind blowing. When, when she had all the. I remember, I remember early on, Naomi and I persuading Linda and Christine, the big girls, to do her show because she had just started showing in Paris. It had always been English girls before Yasmin. And I think Yasmin and Naomi and I got the other girls to do it. And it kind of really elevated her shows into the stratosphere, really, because those girls just looked absolutely incredible in those wonderful. Well, they were couture outfits, really, weren't they? Yeah. Yeah.

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[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

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[Sam McKnight]

I mean, that picture of Christie with. With that kind of frizzy. Yes, those two, like bareback trees almost.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

They're. That was amazing. And Kate with her sort of little. She was holding a little bunny rabbit. Yeah, she's just amazing. And there was one show that was sponsored by Magnum and they all came on licking Magnum lollies. And it was just extraordinary.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah, things were so much more wild in those days. I mean, the order backstage was. There wasn't any.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

It was.

[Sam McKnight]

I don't know how it happened.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

It just does, though, doesn't you just make it happen and that, I guess that was really good training.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah. I think what we know in the fashion business and is how much crazy stuff, how much disorder there is and how I'm always so impressed how people can take that and run with it and make some order out of it. And that order is beauty, you know, and you're a master of that.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Well, it's that idea of collaboration because it's not a single. It's not a single person. It's not a solitary craft. It's a huge team effort. It's all about the team. It only works if everyone's doing their thing.

[Sam McKnight]

Do you have a favorite show that you worked on?

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

I've been lucky to work on hundreds of incredible shows with people like Vivian. I spent 12 years with Carl at Chanel and Fendi, which was just absolutely incredible. And that was recent. I spent 15 years with dries Van Noten doing amazing things. I've been lucky enough to work with incredible creative talent. So it kind of rubs off on.

[Sam McKnight]

You, hopefully, because Carl, I mean, Carl was just a byword in fashion. It's so strange that. I mean, I remember when I was coming up originally with the questions for Fashion Neurosis a few years ago, when I was developing it, one of my repetitive questions was going to be, do you have any anecdotes about Karl Lagerfeld? Because he was like an alter ego for, you know, not just for fashion people, but he was such a. He was like an avatar and he sort of was one in the end. And do you have any anecdotes about Carl?

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

About Carl? Oh, God, so many anecdotes about Carl. He was so funny and he was so welcoming because, you know, my first few jobs with Chanel, it's quite intimidating to be. To be in. In his incredible studio with the 40 foot high ceilings, full of books, you know, and all these amazing creative talents around. But he makes everyone feel welcome. He goes around and says good morning to all the assistants and goodbye, big kisses, and is in. Was. He was incredibly warm and very, very, very clever and very funny. So every job with him was. It was an absolute joy. And the funny thing is we did six shows a year for Chanel. We did, I think, four for Fendi. And we never did the same thing twice. If it was a ponytail, it would be on a different side or it'd be a double ponytail or something. It was. He loved the idea that you never did everything, anything twice. And he never spoke about a job after it was finished. A show, a job, anything. You never heard of it again. He moved on to the next thing. And that's something I took from him. The kind of. The constantly moving forwards. I mean, it was. It was quite incredible. He never mentioned yesterday's news. It was all about today and tomorrow.

[Sam McKnight]

Wow. Because I used to hear stories of him suddenly deciding someone was out, you know, someone who'd been close to him, and then they fell, they were cast out of the Garden of Eden. It was quite a devastating thing to.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

When I worked with. It was towards the end of his life, so I. I think he probably mellowed out a bit.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah, yeah.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

But yes, I did hear those stories too. Yeah.

[Sam McKnight]

Yes. And if you fancy someone and you don't like something they're wearing, does it kill your attraction to them?

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Oh, God, my days are fancied, are long gone. I think what you're wearing is what someone's wearing is. I hate to admit it, but yes, it is very important to me. If someone. If someone's wearing. Oh, how could I say this? Oh, I don't know. Shoes. If someone's wearing awful shoes, I find it really off putting.

[Sam McKnight]

What are awful shoes?

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Awful cheap, nasty shoes.

[Sam McKnight]

Like trendy shoes.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Unflattering shoes. Cheap shoes. Cheap shoes are awful. I think cheap shoe. Cheap shoes that look cheap are awful on anyone. I think I. I guess it's from me being very head conscious. I look at faces and hair and then I guess the next thing you go to is the feet. And I. I think. I think the feet are really important. I can be very put off by someone's footwear because it's not estate agent footwear.

[Sam McKnight]

That's very good. That's so good estate. Yeah. Yeah. There's a particular bad suit and bad shoes that are certain.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Sits fine. It's the shoes, right? It's the shoes.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

You can't get away with bad shoes.

[Sam McKnight]

No, it's true. And a good shoe really makes you notice.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Oh, good. Should just elevate. It changes the way you walk. It elevates everything.

[Sam McKnight]

And hair's, you know, such a personal thing. It is clothes in its way. And what about disasters? Has anyone been incredibly upset with something that you've done?

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

God, not that I know about, probably.

[Sam McKnight]

I mean, you're such A master. You just have this. It's like watching a chef. You just conjure up these things and you're such a maker, you know, watching how you. How you shape these incredible kind of beautiful creations that you make with people's hair.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

The reason for. I tell you, the reason for that is I use my hands as tools, really. When I first came to London, I came to London on holiday and my friend, a friend of a friend, was the PR at Bieber in High Street Cairn. And within two years I had moved to London and because I'd just fallen in love with, you know, the whole. That whole London Bieber look of the early 70s. It's just. It was coming from a mining village where there was only three days electricity a week. We were in that sort of world and everything was bleak and London was pretty bleak, but there were these sort of little blips of lights like Biba and Fiorucci, and that kind of world was opening up and I saw the bright lights and I ended up working. I had a few jobs. I worked in Miss Selfridge, which had a hairdressing salon. I worked in Elizabeth Arden hairdressing salon. And then I ended up in a place called Moulton Brown, which was Molten Brown, you probably know as hand wash. But it was the coolest hairdressing salon in London in the 70s. It was in South Moulton street and the building is still there. It's a beautiful listed building with a curved window. When South Moulton street was the happening place in London after the King's Road, when the King's Road was kind of on the wane and Mrs. B had opened Browns, Mrs. B's daughter married a hairdresser called Michael and they opened Molten Brown. So Molton Brown was the first place to do organic hair products.

[Sam McKnight]

Really.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

They made them all themselves and we were taught to. To do. To be the opposite of Vidal Sassoon. So we weren't allowed to use electrical equipment. We had to dry the hair with towels and our hands. So everything had to work in a much more natural way. So I learned to really rely on my hands and not rely on electrical tools. So that I learned that very, very basic thing there when I first started. And that has kind of informed my work ever since. I like to get my hands in.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah. God, that's so good. Because if you can do. I mean, I. Any idea that can travel from the brain down the arm and into something is. Every single time you repeat that, it's an education a new idea seems to come out of.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Does you're right. Yeah, you're right.

[Sam McKnight]

I mean, in a way, technology really interferes with that process. And I think, I imagine it's harder for a young person to make the leap from having a fantasy about doing something or being someone to actually making.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Technology interferes with that. But I take another view on that. I'm so glad I learned that. I learned to do that. So I just absolutely am fascinated by the new technology in hairdryers and tools and straightening irons and curlers. It's extraordinary what you can do with the right tools. I remember when straighteners first became. When I got my hands on the first pair of straighteners, it would have been the 90s, I'm sure. And they were great big flat things with wooden handles that you got in Italy. They looked like torture contraptions. Now, looking back, but it changed my life. Suddenly you didn't have to iron hair with an iron ore or, you know, blow dry it for hours. Suddenly these straight whoosh and they straighten. I think, I think technology is an incredible thing if you, if you use it properly.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah, I suppose it. You can mold it yourself.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

In the end, it's incredible.

[Sam McKnight]

The person who is the creative and any tool is a. Is another way of extending that.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Yeah.

[Sam McKnight]

And you've talked about liking to go out of your comfort zone. What does that look like to you now to be.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Well, I mean, when I was 62, I launched a line of hair care products which took me right out of my comfort zone. But I think as I've gotten older, I think it's really important to push myself out of my comfort zone. During COVID I was 65 during COVID my 65th birthday on the first, second month occurred in May in the COVID when it was, you know, peak Covid. And I remember thinking, I'm going to use this as an opportunity because suddenly no one, we weren't working. I was used to traveling three different places every week, you know, and suddenly that was gone. And I actually liked it. And I thought, I'm going to look at this as an opportunity. And we'd had success with the four products I already had that was all funded by me. And I just made these big decisions, okay, we're going to get investment. I'm going to dive into the hair product and retail world. My mind opened up and I thought, there's. I don't want to go on for the rest of my life. What am I going to do? Doing, you know, three fashion shoots a week shows, which has been amazing for me, is that I Love it, it's great. But I suddenly, yeah, I suddenly saw the, the end coming. You know, there's an end to this totally. And I don't want to spend the next 10 years doing the same as I've done for the last four, 40 years. I wouldn't change. I want to move on. And that's I think Carl's thing was always in my mind about moving on to the next thing and I think that it so, so it became about pushing myself to do things that I hadn't done before.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

And that was in my personal life as well. So I started doing more adventure holidays. I've just been white water rafting and doing things that I hate to say but it's not really bucket list, it's just, it's about new experiences and I think the new experiences are keeping me invigorated and keeping me young, keeping me fresh. Yeah, I got a dog.

[Sam McKnight]

It's so, I, it's so lovely listening to you talk about that because I was reading some. A friend of mine sent me this thing the other day about the Japanese artist Hokusai who didn't really get going until he was 60 and then he talks all about these evolvement in his work and his art and he did all his greatest work after the age of 60 and life is so exciting that there's not a moment to lose. The nearer the end, it's not a moment to waste.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

And I felt to that I, I, I had been, Listen, it's, it's been the most incredible working life. It's been amazing. I've been blessed and I love every minute of it. But I, I suddenly thought, I don't. I suddenly became very aware of being on repeat, you know, and not and, and starting to think I want to have new experiences, I want to have new adventures, I want to be stimulated in a different way. I'm 70 this year and I feel great. I feel really good. I feel I have a lot of energy and I have a renewed zest for life if you like because there's.

[Sam McKnight]

A lot of conditioning that as you get older you're supposed to do less and less. But I find I want to do more and more. I feel exactly the same as you. I want new experiences, I don't want repetition and I feel with my experience I have a more courage to push through my, you know, self doubt I suppose. And it's great, you know, listening to you describe launching this whole product range.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

And yeah, we have hair by sammcknight.com we have a fantastic website. That's. That's where you can buy and there's lots of tutorials. There's a lot of information on there. We are in. We're in department stores within top salons. We have a wide foreign distribution now. So, yeah, we do quite well.

[Sam McKnight]

It's great. It's so gorgeous. I love the colours of the packaging, this pale blue.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

You wanted to bring a little joy back into the world of hair care.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

And there was a. There had started to be a very much of a negative narrative in that hair care brands were. Would tell you how bad your hair was and you needed this to fix it.

[Sam McKnight]

Right.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

And I thought most people who sit down in my chair, their hair isn't. They'll say, oh, my hair's terrible. It's not terrible. It's not as terrible you think it is. There's a very easy way to fix it.

[Sam McKnight]

Right.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

You know, it's. It's. So we. I wanted to bring a more positive vibe back to hair care. And we started with color. We started with the color of the packaging. So it's kind of inviting and rather than being medicinal and scary, it's sort of. There's a joy there.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah, it's romantic, it's lovely. And also you have, you know, on your Instagram and you do these pictures with you in different wigs, which are very entertaining and also amazing how to change a mood. Like, you put them on and you take these pictures and you play about a bit. And the whole thing is very uplifting. And I think any of those things to do with appearance are great, rather than the prescriptive thing to. This is how to play and this is how to enhance and you can kind of mess about a bit.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

I think hair is such a great tool. I keep saying that. I think hair is. It should be enjoyed. I think if you cut your hair, it will grow back. You know, if you cut it, you. Oh, people say, oh, people will. Some people will torture themselves for six months about cutting a fringe. Now you could have cut it and it would have grown back by now. And you, you know, and, and. And sometimes people say, oh, what if I don't like it? But what if you do?

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah, exactly. If you do, do you take your hair skills and your kind of genius manner with your hands into your garden? Because you have a beautiful garden and you're very into your flowers and your growing things.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

I think the garden, for me, I have had my garden now for 15 years. I used to live in Maida Vale and I would go in the Summer and sit in a deck chair in the Rose Garden, Regent park of an evening and read a book. And I. Suddenly I. Suddenly I started to think, oh, maybe I could have my own garden. So cut to found a house with a great big garden and have spent the last 15 years just absolutely. It's changed my life. I sow seeds, I grow my own vegetables. I watch the seasons slowly turn, which I absolutely love. It makes me very aware of time passing in a good way. And it's very different from being in a studio with 20, 30, 40 people. This is just me. It's a solitary hobby. Hobby? Is it a hobby? It's a way of life now. It's solitary. It's just me and it's almost meditative. I used to love baking too, but I found baking was like that too. You had to concentrate and it was just you. I couldn't do it with anyone else around. Yeah. And. And gardening's kind of taken over from the baking a bit.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah, I know. It's good to be. Have some other type of action, I think, because that's very relaxing.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

And I think the gardening, it brings me peace and it brings me. It gives me hope because there's always something growing and something to look forward to. Does. Does that make sense? And something. Something dies or something fades and, you know, the peonies go back into the ground and then they start appearing in February with their little red shoots and now they're sort of two feet high. And it just. It brings hope, really, that something will always be coming through.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah. It's a great thing to have something in place to remind you of the phases of things.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Yes, absolutely.

[Sam McKnight]

Things pass and then re. Evolve and. Are you involved in the haircuts for the homeless project?

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

I'm not hugely involved with haircuts and problems, but I do everything I can to help them.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

I think what they're doing is absolutely incredible. It's a wonderful, wonderful thing they're doing and I'm full of admiration for them and I wrote a form forward for the book that they did, so anything we can do to help them, we do. What they do is just wonderful. He's such an enigmatic person and who works really, really hard. So I am there, always there to support them in whatever I can do.

[Sam McKnight]

It's a brilliant idea.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

It's a fantastic idea. And I'm full of admiration for those guys. They're almost. They're like nurses.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

You know, I think I would probably get so wrapped up in the personal lives of people I'm not sure I could do it. I remember I got to travel with Princess Diana and she took me to the most incredible places. We went to Mother Teresa's in Calcutta. We went to refugee camps on the Afghan border where kids were kids who'd had their arms and legs blown off by landmines. One of the newsreaders, I can't remember which one it was, opened a limb fitting center. So she went to draw attention to that. And I, I, honestly, I was in bits, I was in tears around the back of the building. Like, it just affected me so much. So I, I, I quite emotional in that, in that respect. And that's why I'm full of admiration for those guys who do their haircuts for the homeless. It just makes you feel good. They feel great. And they've had some attention, you know, they've had someone speak to them in a normal way, you know, and touch them. And touch them.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Touch is important too.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah, so important. And I think fashion is a great Trojan horse, actually, that, that people in the fashion business do are quite effective in being able to, you know, care for people in the community and in the greater world. Just because we were quite sort of matter of fact about this could make someone feel better rather than over kind of intellectualizing something or being overwhelmed by the magnitude of something. What's good about people in our industry as we know this could be good here. Let's do that. And then that kind of ripples into a bigger outcome and a bigger effect, I think.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

You've got me thinking, you've got me thinking I need to push myself and get myself out there and get involved in that.

[Sam McKnight]

Well, you're quite proactive. I mean, you, you do a lot of things about making sure people are recognized. Like even on shoots, people being credited. Because in the business and in magazines for years that models were never credited, it was really hard to get a credit. And you're one of the people that has pioneered on Instagram that people's names are everyone's tagged and those things are everything about being seen and recognized and feeling valued and being valued, actually. And you're really good at that.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Well, I think I started to notice a few years ago, I started to notice a general devaluation of what the creatives brought to the table on a fashion shoot. Because quite often, I think quite often you don't get paid for a lot of your work. The deal was always, if you worked for a magazine or something high profile, you would get credit in return for your work. And that was almost the shop window for your work, which is fine. And it was that, that, that was the deal for decades. And as time has gone on, so magazines have kind of lost their, their importance as to how they used to be and that their importance has shifted to online. I noticed that people weren't giving credit to the beauty teams on their online content. And these people still hadn't been paid for their work. Now online is the currency for a young hair or makeup artists, for people to see their work. And if the people they worked for are not crediting them, then that original deal is broken. There is no deal anymore. And it happened a few times. And then I started to see it's happening a lot. It's almost become systematic. It's almost become a policy.

[Sam McKnight]

God.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

And I thought, no, I'm not gonna stay. The thing is, I have a voice, I have a platform, I'm gonna use it. So I started question, I'd start to say, well, you know, you didn't credit the hair and makeup. Be nice to see the hair and makeup credits. And they wouldn't reply. So I did a few posts and I got the most incredible response. I did a few not mean, not nasty, not bitchy, just stating facts, stating how it was, stating what I've just said here, what the deal was and got an incredible response from people. And I realized this problem is far bigger than I thought. So I set about trying to find a way to form a union. Cut to bectu, which is the union for behind the scenes in the film world, have now opened up to the fashion world, which they had never been open to before. Because I think, and people hear union and they think, oh, you know, militants. This is going to be difficult. Not at all. It's a protection, it's organization and it's setting basic rules and basic conditions. And I think this is just the beginning. So I'm hoping it's going to go from strength to strength and be the norm, you know, because it's the wild west out there, you know?

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah. Oh, that sounds. It's fantastic you're doing that. And it's always, I think people go into a lull and then somebody like you says these things and it just brings everyone to life and it's fun to.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

I think for me, I'm just speaking up for people who have no voice.

[Sam McKnight]

Yeah.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

I mean, I've had an amazing career. I don't care if I upset people by saying it. It has to be said. And I think change will come. Change is necessary and change. Change will come. And changes. The. The change will be for the good, for everyone. Everyone will know the ground rules, you know?

[Sam McKnight]

Well, thank you so much, Sam.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

Thank you.

[Sam McKnight]

Being on fashion neurosis, it's been intriguing.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

And hopefully I'm not too neurotic.

[Sam McKnight]

Oh, not at all. You seem remarkably unneurotic. I think you've transcended it. Thank you so much.

[Guest (Unnamed Hairdresser)]

I got away with it.