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- [00:01]
Unknown Sponsor
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- [00:39]
Belle
Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. Suzie Cave.
- [00:49]
Suzie Cave
Hi, Belle.
- [00:51]
Belle
Can you describe what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?
- [00:56]
Suzie Cave
Well, I'm wearing this emerald green Moroccan dress, which I never know if it's a kaftan or a jalaba or you'll know better than me. And I wore it because I love it, first of all. It's just so comfortable. And also because of your, you know, childhood in Morocco, I felt like it was appropriate to wear to honor your Moroccan life. And so. And I love. I love these. I. I buy them on Etsy and they cost, like, £100, and I have a brown one and a dark red one, and I often wear them when I'm. I sort of want to be dressed up, but really, really comfortable. And. And then I'm wearing a pair of Gucci Alessandro Michele little mules. Gold mules. And Sophie billy bra diamond ring that Nick gave me for my birthday. That's so beautiful with the N. Yeah. And my little snake that Nick bought me from Bentley and skinner. It's a 1920s little snake. And my Balenciaga earrings said that's what I'm wearing today.
- [02:10]
Belle
I love that emerald green caftan because when I was a child living in Morocco, my mother had an emerald green caftan and she looked so beautiful in it. And she didn't have many things, but when she wore that, I particularly loved it. And I feel like we have this synergy in your gold braid on the caftan and my gold stripe going down the arm of my jumper. So we're in harmony as usual. It's strange to be talking to you in this slightly formal way because you are literally my best friend, and whenever I see you, I feel better, like a lost limb has been restored to me. And you're one of the original supermodels from the 90s, and you're the incredibly successful designer and founder of the Vampire's Wife. And I wondered what was the first piece of clothing that you became obsessed with as a child?
- [03:18]
Suzie Cave
Yeah. Trying to remember the first piece of clothing was quite difficult because I think I had all these imaginary things that I didn't actually have. And I was sure I had a pair of red patent shoes. But I asked my mom yesterday and she said I definitely didn't have them, so. But there is one outfit that I had, a party dress that I had when we were. We'd come back from Africa, where we were living, and back to Cheshire to our home there, and I'd fallen in love with this sort of orange and white long skirt and a sort of ruched top. And I apparently used to wear it every day to the shops and anywhere, even though it was quite a party kind of dress. But my mom said I just wore it the whole time. And I think I wore it until it was literally up to my knees. Having been long when we had bought it, I just didn't want to let it go.
- [04:22]
Belle
I know you had a complicated childhood and you ran away from school age 14 and then moved to Japan. What did you think your life was going to be?
- [04:33]
Suzie Cave
I. I didn't have particularly high hopes for myself, to be really honest. I. I was pretty terrified of the future and I just felt like a bit of a disaster, to be honest. And so I've been very surprised how things have turned out. It really wasn't in any way anything I could ever have dreamt. All the good things that happened to me were things that were just in no way ever. I would never have believed any of it if I could time travel.
- [05:11]
Belle
And what felt like a disaster.
- [05:15]
Suzie Cave
I just felt pretty hopeless at everything. I was always sort of dreaming and looking out the window and kind of in my own little world. And I was always being told off about that. I don't know whether it was to do with. Because I'd lived for some of my childhood in Malawi, in Nigeria, and then I'd come back to England and I didn't really speak English very well and I kind of never felt like I really fitted in. Always felt slightly awkward, very awkward. And I went to a lot of different schools and a lot of different types of schools. I don't know, really.
- [05:54]
Belle
You met Steven Meisel on a plane to New York. What did he say to you?
- [06:00]
Suzie Cave
I was on a school holiday. I think it was Easter holiday. And my dad was living and working in New York and my mum didn't. Was a little disappointed with me because I'd been naughty at school and so packed me off to go and see my dad. And my dad was very sweet. He. He Just kind of let me go loose in New York and I was only 14 and I just sort of roamed around and found myself in Carnegie hall, which I'd seen on TV in Fame. And I, I thought, oh, I've seen that on tv. I'm going to go inside and have a look. And I went inside and as I was walking up the stairs, Bethann Hardison, the famous model agent at the time, she was just opening her agency that day and was hammering the sign on the door saying, you know, model agent. And she just sort of happened to see, see me going up the stairs. And I was only 14, but she, she saw something in me and said, would I like to be a model? And I was like, what? You know, like, you know. And she said, I'll send you to see some testing photographers who are new. And one of those photographers that she sent me to was 18 year old Steven Wiesel.
- [07:17]
Belle
Oh my God.
- [07:18]
Suzie Cave
And who. I went to meet him, he was in this sort of gorgeous apartment and he looked so handsome and I was just like this little 14 year old, kind of completely unsophisticated and like I just felt so out of my depth. And he was incredibly sweet and sort of said, look, I really think you need to go back to school. You're very, very young, you know. So off I went, packed off, back to, back to England, back to school. And then many, many years later, well, not that many, but when I was 18, about five years later, he actually booked me for a job in New York. But I was too scared to tell him that I was the one he sent back home to school. I just felt too shy to tell him that. But I was very grateful for his advice because that was good advice. I didn't actually end up going back to school, you did. I pretended I was at school, but I wasn't because.
- [08:20]
Belle
Is that when you went to Japan instead?
- [08:23]
Suzie Cave
I. I sort of went back to school briefly for about a day. I went to the local comprehensive in, in Catford and I. No one really noticed that I was there or not. So there was such huge classes that I just started wandering around London and getting the train to London and stuff like that. And on one of those days I was spotted by a Japanese agent who asked me to go to Japan, which was again, completely sort of out of the blue and out of any kind of idea. I thought I'd just be working in Sainsbury's or, you know, I'd be lucky if I ever got a job doing anything. So it was quite amazing. And I was just like, yes. You know, And I didn't have any money. I had. Remember getting on the plane, I had 20 pence in my. And I was. I think I was 16 then when I left to go to Japan. Gosh. Yeah. I was supposed to go for two months, but I ended up there for nearly two years because I loved it.
- [09:32]
Belle
Because in back in the day, models would go to Japan and earn a lot of money and then come back and sort of be a bit more.
- [09:46]
Suzie Cave
Yeah.
- [09:47]
Belle
How did it work?
- [09:48]
Suzie Cave
Well, I sort of thought I got sent there because I was really the most unlikely model you'd probably ever seen in your life. At the time, I was small. I was very skinny. I had a very short haircut with black and white sort of stripes.
- [10:08]
Belle
So great.
- [10:09]
Suzie Cave
And for some reason, you know, the Japanese people took me under their wing, and I don't know what happened, but they were just so kind to me. And I worked a lot, sometimes, like, two jobs a day. And I kind of learned how to be a model because I was working so much, and I was so camera shy. I was excruciating. For the first sort of few months, I literally would just freeze in front of the camera, and it was really difficult. And I'd have sort of. I'd have, like, paranoiac kind of, you know, just feeling like, what am I doing here? And I'm just no good at this. And, you know, even people used to say. Other models used to say to me, I don't think you're cut out for this because you're not very good at it.
- [10:54]
Belle
No.
- [10:56]
Suzie Cave
And, you know, I didn't. I really. But then on one of the occasions, one of the jobs I was doing in Japan, Tian, the very famous makeup artist who was the creative director of the makeup of Christian Dior, had come over to do some work with Christian Dior for the makeup, and he chose me to model for him. And he did my makeup and kind of transformed me completely. I looked in the mirror, hardly recognized myself. And he said, look, if you come to Paris, I'll shoot a Christian Dior makeup campaign with you. And I just thought he was being nice. But then a few years later, when I came back to England and I went to Paris, that's what happened. And I was the face of Christiane Dior makeup for about four or five years. Oh, my God. And worked with Tienne. Yeah. And that was sort of like. I think that's what kind of helped me in my career, you know, having that endorsement.
- [12:00]
Belle
Because he. See, I've seen Some of those pictures, and it seemed like he just enhanced what you were capable of because they're so recognizably you, with this incredibly elegant kind of aquiline profile and this fineness.
- [12:19]
Suzie Cave
Thank you.
- [12:21]
Belle
When you looked in the mirror, what had he done? Did you notice what he'd accentuated that you almost stepped into seeing? Oh, this is me, and I. I can be more of this.
- [12:35]
Suzie Cave
I just. I just. I think on every shoot with him, I always felt like, how can I give him enough because he's so brilliant? And it was just him and I in the studio. He was also the photographer with me. He took all the photographs. So we were kind of on our own, and it was amazing, and we just, you know, sort of experiment. But what fascinated me about Tien was that he was a Vietnamese refugee, and he'd come over to Paris as a refugee, and he had got a job at the opera, and he was. He was Nureyev's makeup artist in the end. So he did all the makeup for all the incredible performances with Rudolf Nureyev, and that's why a lot of the makeup he did used to sort of come out into your hairline. Like, a lot of the makeup on me was like this ballet kind of, you know, incredible colors. And, you know, it was really sort of something else. It wasn't. It wasn't just a normal makeup. It was sort of like every color and sort of going into my hairline, the eyeshadows sort of going purple and green and. And he'd sort of put. You know, he'd have millions of accessories he'd tie around my head like a ballerina and flowers and, you know, so he just transformed me into these sort of flower kind of vibe, ballet. I don't even know. They were just. Each. Each. Each campaign was so different, and I wasn't really recognizable at all. But it was really fun. We had a lot of fun together doing those campaigns. I really. I was amazing to work with someone so talented.
- [14:22]
Belle
God, they sound incredible. So interesting in the old way of working, you know, with just the two of you. Whereas now all the productions have, you know, 50 people or.
- [14:36]
Suzie Cave
Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Yeah.
- [14:38]
Belle
It's possible to be freer, I think, in that situation. Well, I would imagine not.
- [14:43]
Suzie Cave
Yeah. I feel like. I mean, I don't really do many shoots any anymore myself, as in that way. But whenever I have in the last sort of 15 years, I'm always astounded by how many people are in the studio, because when I was modeling with Bailey or, you know, with the, you know, the more old school photographers. And in my time in the 80s, you know, there would just be one assistant, one hairdresser, one makeup artist, one stylist, maybe, maybe an art director, and that's it. And now there's so many people, so it is quite intimidating. I found it much easier to kind of lose yourself and get into the photograph if it's not so many people. It's quite intimidating when there's loads of people.
- [15:33]
Belle
I remember the first time I saw you and you were standing in the doorway of a Winnebago in Hyde park and we were doing a Vivienne Westwood shoot for Elle magazine. And you were standing in the. Standing on the steps. And I remember you were wearing this tiny little silk skirt and a breeze came along and just blew it up and then you'd smoothed it down, but so slowly. And I was totally fascinated because I thought, God, if that happened to me, I would have smacked it down. But you just did this kind of incredibly slow smoothing and I've never forgotten that.
- [16:18]
Suzie Cave
Oh, wow, that's such a. Interesting memory because I can't remember that at all. I think living in Japan, I kind of learned to try and do things elegantly because naturally I was quite a clumsy kind of person. Always falling over and walking into lampposts, things like that. And so. And I noticed the more sophisticated models did things slowly. So I kind of. They were, they were a bit older than me and I used to look up to them and you know, and the beautiful Japanese models and, you know, they sort of were so graceful. So I think I tried to take a little bit of inspiration from them.
- [17:03]
Belle
But I remember you mentioning once how you had a boyfriend who was look who was always looking at other models. I think you decided to do things slowly to attract his attention. Is that.
- [17:16]
Suzie Cave
Yeah, that's true. I remember being backstage at a fashion show in Tokyo and my boyfriend was doing. He was a hairdresser and he was doing the hair on the show and we were all. I was very excited to be in a show that he was doing the hair on. And I was very new at doing fashion shows, so I. I think it was probably like my second fashion show I'd ever done or something like that, or even could have been one of the first. I think it was the second. And I noticed that he kept on looking at this girl who was undressing really, really slowly. This model, beautiful model. He was older than me and he kept sort of hanging around her and kept re combing her hair over and over. Again. And I remember just watching him and how captivated he was by her. And I think it was a painful moment for me because I felt so unsophisticated next to her. But it kind of was a little lesson after that. I thought, I'm gonna be like that from now on. Whenever I'm changing or doing anything, I'm gonna do it like that. And maybe my boyfriend might pay me more attention. So I don't know those weird things that you sort of pick up when you're young and insecure and seems very silly now.
- [18:36]
Belle
But it's interesting because it's almost like being in the theater and learning a technique and you've always been able to kind of recognize these moments in day to day life and turn them into some of your artistry. And I mean this. When I saw you for the first time, and I remember your black hair and it was very similar to how you are now and your pale skin and just this languidness that you had. And anyway, it worked on me and I've been captivated ever since.
- [19:13]
Suzie Cave
Oh, thank you, Belle. So lovely. Thank you.
- [19:16]
Belle
And when we met, I was working for Vivian and. And you and Sarah Stockbridge were her favorite models. And do you remember what were the things that she asked you to do?
- [19:33]
Suzie Cave
Well, there was always Sarah and, you know, the incredible Sarah Stockbridge. And for some reason, Vivian liked us both together, maybe because I had such black hair and Sarah had such blonde hair. And I feel like we were like the white swan and the black swan or something.
- [19:55]
Belle
Yeah.
- [19:56]
Suzie Cave
And so she'd come up with these little, little stories for us just as we were about to go on. It was pretty chaotic. I mean, we all. None of us really knew what we were doing, except I think Sarah knew what she was doing. She was always brilliant. I was just sort of following on, following along, going along with whatever was happening type of thing. And anything could happen on the catwalk. You just never knew what was going to happen. And it was just fun. It was a lot of fun, actually.
- [20:25]
Belle
Because I remember one show where she. You were swapping clothes and it was almost like doctors and nurses and Was it you listening to Sarah's heartbeat and.
- [20:35]
Suzie Cave
Then going, Yes, I think I was. Yeah, I was the. I think I was the patient because I had to limp and have a walking stick. And then for some reason I had the stethoscope. I don't know, it was just all funny.
- [20:52]
Belle
It was just so much fun, though.
- [20:54]
Suzie Cave
It was really. It really was fun. We really had fun those days.
- [20:59]
Belle
I remember being at the casting where Sarah Stockbridge, where Vivienne first saw her. And I remember her walking and going back and forwards. And then after Vivienne went, oof, I've got tears in me eyes. And she was just so. She saw what Sarah had to offer. And I was thinking, I wonder why she chose her out of all the people. And she was right. You know, Sarah was. She just was so responsive to Vivienne.
- [21:34]
Suzie Cave
Yeah, Sarah was. I mean, she was just magnificent. I mean, she still is, but I remember just being like, I don't think I've ever met anyone ever again as sort of incredible a performer. The way. The way she. And just everything about her, she's just so charismatic and magnetic and so beautiful. So incredibly beautiful.
- [21:57]
Belle
Well, you're an amazing team. You were. You were incredible because you both had this intense atmosphere and you seem to have almost a sort of symbiotic understanding of what the next. What each of you would do next. And you just responded to each other. So it was so fun to watch. It was amazing.
- [22:20]
Suzie Cave
I kind of liked being a little bit in the background with Sarah. I often think about that. I always feel a little bit more comfortable if I'm not the center of attention. And, you know, I don't really like being the center of attention at all. And I think with Sarah, you know, I could. I love to see Sarah do what she does and I just sort of stay back and sort of support whatever it is she's doing type of thing. And I think it's quite similar now being married to Nick. You know, I'm married to someone who's incredibly charismatic. And, you know, I like being a little bit behind the scenes. I like watching them and him and Nick being Nick. But I don't feel very comfortable when I sometimes end up being. Getting, if I'm with Nick, sort of that attention that he gets, the spotlight on him. But if it goes on me a bit, I'm quite shy. I find it quite, quite scary.
- [23:28]
Belle
It's so interesting because people are obsessed with you and fascinated and the more reticent you are, the more. More intrigued people are by you. You have such a presence that you, you. You have a lot of privacy about you as well.
- [23:46]
Suzie Cave
So, yeah, I sort of don't know how I ended up, where I ended up. I'm sure I would. You know, it's just so strange because my personality doesn't really go with the kind of life that I have, you know, or that I've, you know, since. Since I left home. I always think, you know, I'd probably, I, I don't know, it's strange, I mean I feel I, I love, I love my life obviously but I always think I should be a bit more outgoing but as I've got older I've got more and more quiet, I think. And also the fact that I don't drink alcohol for the last nearly 30 years, I think, you know, when I used to drink I was a little bit out of control. Wild. But you know, I'm, I'm. Yeah, don't do that anymore.
- [24:44]
Belle
And we reconnected in the 90s when I started my own brand and your then boyfriend Ralph rang up and said that you'd had a dream about some shoes I'd made and could he bring you round and I was so excited because I was making a film and I wanted to ask you to be in it and we've been friends ever since then.
- [25:08]
Suzie Cave
I'd had a dream about these blue suede shoes and a bar of chocolate and. And I'd woken up in the morning and told Ralph and he said the Bella makes those shoes, my friend Bella makes those shoes. I'll take you around, then we'll go and buy you some shoes and you know, he was very sweet and then we'll go and buy you some chocolate, he's so sweet. And anyways, we went around and I met you properly then cuz we hadn't really properly met when you worked with Vivian. We'd sort of met that day but not really had a conversation and from that day, you know, I feel like that dream was magical because you know, I had the lovely shoes and then I never stopped wearing your shoes for the years and years and years to come and we, you know, we became such close friends and through thick and thin, through everything, I'm enormously grateful to you for everything.
- [26:11]
Belle
Well, I'm enormously grateful to you Susie, do you remember? There's so many things we've done together but I remember this time in Paris when Linda Evangelista gave you the key to her room and at the Ritz and we went upstairs and we just stood in it, we were just absorbing Linda.
- [26:37]
Suzie Cave
Yeah, I was doing the only couture show I've ever done, it was for Chanel and it was at the Ritz and there were two shows, one in the morning, one in the afternoon and in between I didn't know what to do with myself. So you were in Paris, so we said oh, let's meet at the bar and at the Ritz. So you and I were sitting there Having a cup of tea. And Linda came over, who I didn't really know very well. And she said, what are you doing? And I said, well, I'm just hanging out until the next Chanel show this afternoon. She said, I'll just use my suite. Here's the key. And you. And I couldn't believe it that Linda had given us the key to her suite. It was so amazing because, you know, I mean, Linda, even though I kind of worked with her quite often, she's still Linda Evangelista, like the superstar and just so incredible. And, you know, no matter how many times I'd work with her, I was still completely in awe and fascinated by what would be in her suite. So you and I spent the rest of the time in her suite. Just. It was really fun. And we were looking at all her creams and things she used, taking a few notes. Sorry, Linda. Anyway, but that was very sweet of her. I always loved her for being so kind. And we had fun, you and I.
- [28:01]
Belle
Was she her like your big sister model in of the Supers?
- [28:06]
Suzie Cave
Well, to be honest, all of the supermodels, I felt like they were in their own kind of realm, you know, of untouchable. I think I barely even spoke to any of them. I. I'd often be in the same shows and things, but I felt, you know, they. They were like this incredible group, always together and not. Not in a bad way, but they were just so. And they were so, so beautiful, all of them together. It was kind of mesmerizing to see them all. They were so, so lovely. It's funny because looking back, you know, obviously that's such a famous time for those models, but even at the time, it was amazing to sort of see them all because they were just so, you know, incredible. Yasmine, Gary, Helena, Cindy. Who? You didn't see Cindy very often at shows because she didn't really do the shows. Christy Turlington, Yasmin Le Bon, Linda, you know. And then came Kate.
- [29:08]
Belle
Yeah.
- [29:08]
Suzie Cave
Who just cast a spell over everybody. And amazing, the whole change.
- [29:16]
Belle
Well, you were very much part of all that. You know, seeing you all together, it was really something. I mean, like you said, seeing all. All the supermodels together, and it was just staggering. Like this just moving cloud of such spectacular beauty.
- [29:36]
Suzie Cave
And Naomi as well. Yeah, Naomi was the queen of them all.
- [29:41]
Belle
Yes, she is. I mean, it seems to have continued as well. All of you seem to have made. Have your own sort of trajectories very much in the world. And I remember that time in Paris as well, because we went for dinner at that restaurant called Natasha that everyone used to go to. And I said, oh, I think there's someone who maybe I could set you up with. And this writer. And we went for dinner and I seated you in between me and James, but the writer, James Fox. But then, funnily enough, I ended up marrying him. And you went on to meet Nick at one of my shows. Because when he was on Fashion Neurosis, he talked about the first time he saw you sitting when you were sitting together at my show. And I wondered what it was like for you.
- [30:46]
Suzie Cave
So I wasn't in your show. Normally I would have been in your show, but for some reason I wasn't in the show. I think I said I wasn't feeling well or something. Some excuse because I didn't really like doing shows very much.
- [30:59]
Belle
I think you decided you didn't want to walk in shows anymore.
- [31:02]
Suzie Cave
To do shows anymore.
- [31:03]
Belle
Yeah, you were the front row guest instead.
- [31:08]
Suzie Cave
So I was sitting in the audience and Nick was sitting. I think there was someone in between us, maybe James. We kind of both kind of did this, like this sort of look over at each other. And it was sort of this really strange immediate connection. Very strange. Like this sort of. We both moved our heads to each other, I think, at the same time. And kind of, you know, it was a strange kind of deja vu or something. And then after the show, I remember I came back to talk to you and see you and, you know, hang out with you after the show, backstage. And I noticed Nick just leaning against a wall, just sort of looking at me in a way that I've never been looked at before. And I remember thinking of this sort of. The way he was looking at me was so intense that I. I felt quite shy and wasn't quite sure why he was looking at me like that. And, you know, there was sort of like all this unsaid stuff going on between Nick and I. And then I remember we went out for dinner that evening after the show with you, and Nick came. And I remember just this feeling. Every time I went near Nick, I felt like this kind of magnetic force, like, around him. I felt so drawn to him. Like the strangest feeling. I've never felt like that in my life. And I felt also this. Which seems. I don't mean this to sound demasculating or whatever. I say that, but I felt this incredible protection towards him. Like he was my family. And I don't think we'd even spoken at that point. And it was it was. It literally gives me goosebumps now to talk about it. It was, it was so incredible, really. And then we sort of slowly started dating over a period of like a year or two after that. So it was a long, A long romance before we got married. A long, lovely. It was amazing, really.
- [33:27]
Belle
And I, I was the honored one to be chosen to make your wedding dress. And no one else could have worn that dress.
- [33:35]
Suzie Cave
It was a.
- [33:36]
Belle
Because it was a fine knit, viscose sheath dress with a long train and a kind of sailor collar at the back, and it was quite sheer. And we could all gaze at your perfect bottom as you walked up the aisle.
- [33:53]
Suzie Cave
Oh, thank you, Belle. Such a beautiful dress. And you were my maid of honor, and it was just. And you and I spent the night together the night before. I remember we shared a bed. And I remember Nick saying, why are you sleeping with Bella the night before our wedding? I was like.
- [34:13]
Belle
He was quite worried.
- [34:15]
Suzie Cave
It was very funny. And anyway, thank you, Belle. And yes, you made me the most beautiful dress. And I just. It was just such a beautiful, perfect day and in the middle of the woods in the countryside. And this gorgeous dress, which was a little bit outrageous, was pretty see through and was so beautiful. And I've still got it. I treasure, Treasure everything. And Philip made me that incredible hat. And Christian made me the beautiful silver shoes, which I've got, I've got all those things. They're my absolute treasures. They really are. Like when, when, When I had the vampire's wife, you know, some of, some of my team used to ask to see that dress, and they'd just, I'd get it out and they'd all gasp and just be like, oh, my God, it's so beautiful. And, yeah, such a treasured, treasured piece. Because you made it for me.
- [35:15]
Belle
It was you. Because I don't know, when I used to think back on it, I, I, I sent off the measurements to the, to the factory in Italy to make it. And then it arrived a few days before. Maybe we did one fitting and. But it was almost like a cobweb that you inhabited and you transformed it into this amazing thing on this special day. And I felt like I didn't really have much to do with it. I just had the. I had the privilege of making some threads that clad your form when you got married. It was such a. I mean, it was more than an honor. It was, it was a responsibility. And, you know, all these things that have formed part of our friendship, which is so deep. And whenever I meet up with you. I wonder what you'll be wearing as you're so unpredictable. You don't have a uniform and the only thing is your incredibly shiny black hair. And I've never seen you dressed like a slob and I wondered what that could mean. I mean I've never seen you wear a pair of jeans.
- [36:39]
Suzie Cave
Yeah, I don't think I very rarely worn a pair of jeans. I think I, I tend to wear. When I'm not sort of outside. I tend to wear a lot of like dressing gowns. I love wearing those kind of cotton men's dressing gowns I love. So that's kind of my casual stuff. And I like wearing like night dresses in with a coat on. Yeah, that kind of thing. When I'm not sort of dressing for something, I always feel like I'm really scruffy though. I, I'm surprised how you describe me because I don't feel like that.
- [37:25]
Belle
Because you never dressed that. You never seemed casual because I remember years ago meeting you to go for a walk with the dog Hoover and you were wearing a floor length Aussie Clark dress and these high heeled platform mules and it was 10, 10 in the morning and I wondered how you decide what, what you're going to wear.
- [37:48]
Suzie Cave
I put very little thought into what I'm going to wear, to be really honest. I always feel like there's something wrong with me because it's, you know, if I'm dressing someone else, I have so much. I spend a lot of time thinking about what they will be wearing and what they should wear and what they like to wear and you know, weeks and months sometimes, you know, if it's for someone for a performance or something like that. But for me I'm just very. I literally just pick something up off the hanger and just put it on and I don't know and see how I feel and if that feels right for the day. I'm, I'm hopeless with the weather, you know, I don't even take that into consideration or anything. I just. And then I'll go out and I'll be like, oh my God, it's freezing. I hadn't thought about that. Or it's some wintry thing I've got on and it's a really hot day so I'm pretty. I don't know if it's laid back, but I'm just, I don't know, just sort of go with the vibe of the morning.
- [38:52]
Belle
And you're one of the shyest people and also one of the most Overt with your aesthetics. And the Vampire's Wife dresses were so erotic. And even though everyone was covered up. And I remember you showing me once a photo of a cult leader with all his wives in these delicate shades of kind of spring colours, but they were all very covered. I wondered what you want people to think about when they look at someone wearing one of your dresses.
- [39:23]
Suzie Cave
I really mean this. It sounds like a sort of phony thing to say, but I really. I feel so, so much joy when I see someone wearing a Vampire's Wife dress. You know, the fact that they feel good wearing it means so much to me because that's my intention. I think my only intention with being a designer is to make someone feel their best. It really is that. And I'm often told by people how they felt wearing the dress or feel or, you know, and. And it's just the most wonderful thing. It makes me feel like I've just got, like, thousands of sisters, because actually I have two brothers. I never had a sister. Except you feel like my. My. My sister, of course. But it just brought so much joy into my life, you know, to be able to share sort of things that I picked up over the years and how to make the body look great or what feels great on the skin. You know, from all the years of modeling and all the things I've learned from you, Bel, you know, with design, Gosh.
- [40:38]
Belle
I think, Susie, you have an innate. What you do with the proportion of your clothes and those dresses is that you make people look so much more than they actually look. You give people almost your amazing figure. You have these incredible proportions and you've infused that into the shape of your dresses. And I think that's why people are so addicted to them, because they put them on and there they are. It's like they've got the Suzie Kaye figure, and it's just amazing.
- [41:15]
Suzie Cave
Thank you.
- [41:16]
Belle
This is your special talent. Nothing to do with anyone else.
- [41:21]
Suzie Cave
When you asked me many, many years ago now to do the collection, the knitwear collection that we did together, you know, that really sort of ignited the spark of, you know, oh, I really enjoy designing, I didn't really realize how much I enjoyed it. And I really learned so much from.
- [41:39]
Belle
You, but I was amazed because you were so specific. Suddenly you said, no, no, no, we can't have the sleeve finished there. It has to finish at exactly this point. And this is how I like the neckline. I can't have it any other way. And it was like, you're such a. Your demeanor is so Gentle, but you know exactly what you want. And you. You're such a powerful force. And that was the first time I'd ever really seen that. When. When we did that collaboration, I think it was in 2010, I didn't really.
- [42:16]
Suzie Cave
Know that I was so decisive. It kind of took me by surprise as well, because in my personality, I can be very vague, you know, as a person and quite sort of like drifting off and dreamy and that kind of thing. But when it came to design, I was just so clear in my mind what everything should look like. It was quite strange, even for me, because it's like a whole other side of my personality I didn't know I had.
- [42:44]
Belle
Yeah, it's true.
- [42:47]
Suzie Cave
And I didn't also realize it was a good thing. I just thought I was being really bossy.
- [42:53]
Belle
It's essential, isn't it? Otherwise you look with dismay on this thing and think, why didn't I say do this? But you did. Right from the start.
- [43:04]
Suzie Cave
Yeah.
- [43:04]
Belle
Nick is very particular about clothes and we all know he hates ankle boots. How do you deal with that?
- [43:12]
Suzie Cave
Well, yeah, I mean, Nick and the ankle boot thing is. Yeah, he hates them. He really does hate them. So, yeah, I. I don't wear ankle boots. And the one time I did, that's the time he frog marched me into Chanel and bought me some shoes to go home in so that I'd take them off whilst we were out because I had ankle boots on. And so that was fun. He bought me really nice pants.
- [43:45]
Belle
So funny.
- [43:47]
Suzie Cave
Yeah. I mean, Nick has such incredible taste. He's just incredible. I mean, a lot of the time he helped me with the Vampire's Wife with choosing fabrics and he'd go, like, with you. He and you would both go around the fabric fairs and I'd stay at home and you'd, you know, it was brilliant. And he just loves. He. You know, he's. He's just got such an incredible taste, doesn't he?
- [44:13]
Belle
He's got such a good eye. He's got a knack for it and.
- [44:16]
Suzie Cave
Yeah, yeah.
- [44:19]
Belle
Do you find if you fancy someone and don't like what, something that they're wearing, that it kills your attraction?
- [44:27]
Suzie Cave
I don't really mind what anybody else wears as long as Nick doesn't wear jeans. Oh, really? I really don't like Nick wearing jeans. And he's tried so many times and I'm like, no, take them off. So, yeah, no jeans for Nick or for you?
- [44:48]
Belle
I've never seen.
- [44:49]
Suzie Cave
Yeah, I don't know. I don't have Anything against jeans. I just don't like Nick wearing them.
- [44:58]
Belle
That's so interesting. And back in the day, you're always late, and it seems to be a trait among extremely beautiful women. I've noticed. And I remember making a plan to have lunch with you and that amazing model Cristal one day. I think it was a long time ago, probably in the 90s, and you were an hour late and she didn't show up at all. But as soon as you started the Vampire's Wife, you were incredibly punctual. And I wonder if that felt empowering, to be punctual.
- [45:33]
Suzie Cave
I have no idea how that happened. I mean, obviously I had a responsibility because there were a lot of people working with me and, you know, 35 staff or something. And so I really couldn't be late. And living with someone like Nick, who's extremely organized and punctual, I think I must have, you know, by osmosis, I sort of picked it up. And now, yeah, I'm much better than I used to be, for sure.
- [46:05]
Belle
It's really a huge transformation because it was normal that you would be at least an hour late for anything. And lots of models were late, and I was really late.
- [46:19]
Suzie Cave
We were all late.
- [46:20]
Belle
We were all late. And I remember it was a really. I hated it so much, and it was like a sort of terrible trap that I'd make for myself where I had something really important to do and had somewhere to be that mattered a lot, and I would be late. It would be like a kind of a love test almost. My shrink told me that it was a love test because I'd do it with my father to see if he would still be there when I arrived. And it's a way of just. Just making everything awful. And then gradually I've become punctual. And I even liked to be early, which before seemed horrific. And it's just a different. It's like having adrenaline for a different project instead of the one of sort of self centeredness.
- [47:18]
Suzie Cave
Yeah.
- [47:19]
Belle
Do you find that?
- [47:20]
Suzie Cave
Yeah, I felt like I was just. When I was young and modeling, I was pretty chaotic. I mean, I'm a naturally chaotic person. And so in those days, you know, getting around London for a job, you know, when you're working, you know, it was really hard to get a cab. The tubes were all over the place. Like nowadays, it's so much easier to get around. So I was often late because of bad planning. You know, not realizing the studio was like miles away. You know, I didn't. Didn't kind of work Things out, like where I'm. I. I don't know. It's just. And also in those days we were all kind of clubbing and God knows what we were up to. Coming in late, going, not really sleeping much, and then going to work and there's that kind of lifestyle for me, anyway. Yeah, we all did. And then I think being a mother really changed everything for me. You know, there was no way I was going to be late for my boys or let them be late for anything. I think that really changed everything. Suddenly, you know, I was getting up at like, five in the morning to get them ready for school and, you know, that kind of thing, and really never wanted them to have to be late for anything. And Nick's so punctual. He's an amazing. Always. I think Nick is always incredibly. He'll, you know, even in his wild days, I think he was always on time, so.
- [48:49]
Belle
Interesting, isn't it? You know, because just when you were about to launch the Vampire's Wife, your son Arthur, who was my godson, died in an accident. And I remember you saying that you went to bed never expecting to get up again. And. And then Daisy Lowe contacted you about and asked you to make her a dress for an event, and it somehow saved you to keep getting up for work. And is it like being two parallel people, one in grief and the other fueled by this same grief to make the most of your creativity?
- [49:31]
Suzie Cave
Um, I think that after Arthur died, I. I just. I just wanted to sleep forever. I didn't. I just wanted to. I mean, I didn't want to, but I was literally sort of entombed in a dark room for months. And apart from. Obviously, I wanted to look after Earl and Nick and do everything for them because we were just all in such a state and, you know, obviously I had to hold it together for them, so. But as soon as Earl was up and up and back at school, you know, I'd just go to bed and stay in bed, and everything was over. You know, as far as I was concerned, the Vampire's Wife was absolutely over. I think after about four months of that, Daisy Lowe asked me to make her address for the GQ Awards. And I just thought, what does she know? Does she know? Has she seen the news? You know what? You know, that seemed like such a strange thing to ask me at that time, but it was her way, I think, of being a friend and drawing me out of my gloom and my terrible grief and the. And I thought, yes, I can do that. I can do something for a Friend, I couldn't have done anything for myself, but I. The fact that I was asked to do something by a friend, I felt like I wanted to. To do something for, you know, that I could do that. I am that type of person. If you ask me or anyone I love asked me to do something, I will do it no matter what. And that kind of got me out back into the studio to make her this dress. And I found, you know, I could do it. And I made her the dress. And when she wore it, she just looked so beautiful. And it caused quite. It sort of got a lot of press, her wearing that dress. And then the vampire's wife was unknown at that time. And suddenly there was this sort of spotlight on the vampire's wife overnight almost. And then I began to realize that I could do something creative whilst I was grieving and that I could do something useful somehow. And that's sort of how it began, really, how the Vampire's wife. A lot of the time in the first years of the Vampire's Wife, I was really. I was having sort of physical, like, really terrible migraines. My grief was sort of. No matter how much I tried to think, I'm okay, and I'm, you know, I'm getting. Somehow surviving this. My. My body was manifesting the grief in other ways, you know, and. And the migraines were really extreme. And sometimes I'd be in bed for like three days and stuff, and then I'd get up and go to work and be cracking on with work. And, you know, then I'd. You know, and the more the vampire's wife was getting busier and busier, and I was sort of just really appreciative of that. But at the same time, yeah, I was. I was sort of denying a lot of what was going on for me, but actually it was really helpful. And I realized, you know, with our friends, you know, the incredible charity cloud workshop.
- [53:13]
Belle
Yeah.
- [53:14]
Suzie Cave
In New Zealand, who you and I are very close to. The incredible power of creativity with grief, you know, And I don't think I could separate grief from myself then or now. As if, like, there's two parts of me. It's not. It's really something I'm able to do even when I'm grieving. I seem to be able to, you know, I mean, in the early days, I could work for a few hours and that would be, you know, enough. And then I. But then after a while, I started working all day. And then eventually it was all day and all night. The fashion business, you know, how it is. It was sort of 247 for a long time. Not exactly 24 7, but a lot.
- [54:11]
Belle
It was an amazing thing to witness, being. Feeling so helpless, you know, and just wanting to look after you and Nick and Earl and just be anything, you know, Our children are born in the same year and we've been so close and bound together in so many different ways and to. It seems sort of ironic that fashion has been such a tool, a survival tool, that creativity has this ability to make life bearable and to be able to have joy within so much pain. And how you manifested that and how you, you know, how you became this brilliant designer and this businesswoman and this person who. So courageous, you know, that's the thing that I've always admired about you, that. Your willpower and your courage and your amazing attention to detail and.
- [55:31]
Suzie Cave
Thank you, Belle. I think I learnt everything from you.
- [55:34]
Belle
No, you didn't. It's all there. It's all within you.
- [55:39]
Suzie Cave
Everything is from you.
- [55:40]
Belle
Belle, Sometimes I don't see you for weeks or even months and I think, oh, how can I lure Susie into conversation with some gossip? And then the last time you said, oh, I'm practicing this spiritual principle. I can't remember what it's called, but it's really where you don't slag people off. And I was so struck by this because I thought the reality is it's actually much more stimulating to shed praise on something, but it feels more adrenalized to rip things apart. And I wondered why you decided to do that.
- [56:24]
Suzie Cave
Yeah, I just heard somebody talking about this Jewish tradition called Lashon Hara, where she was describing how in her home with her children, they practice Lashon Hara and that no one would say anything negative about anybody else, even if it's true. And I just thought that was so wonderful and I thought, I'm going to try and do that. You know, that's sort of fascinating that even if it's true, you know, that you just never speak badly about anybody or anything. I started doing that about four months ago, I think now or three months ago, and I just found out I don't even have negative thoughts about anything, particularly anyone. You know, I just. It's just sort of erased. It's like sort of BOTOX in my brain, like, you know, I just don't even. And. And it actually. I just feel very peaceful. I'm kind of. Must be a bit boring, though, because. Just can't get me to gossip about anything.
- [57:32]
Belle
But actually it's because I thought, oh, I really. I'M going to look at that because one of the things I used to love about my father was he'd say these damning things about people. And it was so stimulating, it was so exciting, but it was quite intimidating, really, because I worried that if I put a foot wrong, maybe. Maybe I'd get a taste of that. And, I mean, I never did because he didn't have that attitude towards me. But I tried to emulate it in my feeling of feeling, like, insignificant. I would. I mean, I would just find things and figure out good language to shred it. And in that moment, I felt very powerful. But what I was left with was a kind of lack of respect for myself. So when you described what you were doing, I thought I would practice it myself. And I have been a bit, you know, just the sort of idea of not having the thrill of negativity and. And I find it makes space for other ideas. And that's what I'm most interested in, life, is about having ideas of how to be creative. And so, yeah, another thing I've learned.
- [59:00]
Suzie Cave
From you is it's a funny thing because it kind of like if I find myself about. To think something negative about someone.
- [59:12]
Belle
It.
- [59:12]
Suzie Cave
Just doesn't feel right anymore. Not that I would do that very often. You know, just even judging, just judging. Being sort of judgy about things. And anyway, it was just a little thing that I started doing. And anyway, I. I don't know if I can keep it up, but I'll try.
- [59:30]
Belle
Well, already you're exercising your influence on those around you, including me. So thank you so much, Susie, for. For being on fashion. Yeah. Neurosis and being my dearest friend.
- [59:44]
Suzie Cave
Thank you, girl. Thank you for everything.