Fashion Neurosis with Trinny Woodall

Summary

Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud: Trinny Woodall Episode Summary

Podcast Information:

• Title: Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud
• Host: Bella Freud
• Guest: Trinny Woodall
• Release Date: October 15, 2024
• Description: Renowned fashion designer Bella Freud engages with special guests to explore the intricate connections between fashion and identity, delving beyond style to discuss universal themes such as love, identity, culture, anxiety, and politics.

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1. Introduction to the Conversation [01:21 - 02:12]

The episode begins with Bella welcoming Trinny Woodall to "Fashion Neurosis." Bella touches upon her outfit choice for the session, highlighting the balance between comfort and color to suit the filming environment.

Notable Quote:

• Bella Freud [01:37]: "It's not totally me what I'm wearing today because this is very classic and I hate too classic. [...] So lots of thoughts went through my head."

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2. Childhood Memories and Early Fashion Influences [02:12 - 05:01]

Bella shares vivid memories of her childhood attire, emphasizing how specific clothing items left a lasting impression despite a lack of broader childhood memories. She reminisces about wearing a distinctive tweed coat and patent shoes, which set her apart from her sister and brother.

Notable Quotes:

• Bella Freud [02:18]: "It's quite mad, but it's true. A few things bring to mind."
• Trinny Woodall [04:26]: "You remember things when there's fewer, don't you?"

---

3. The Role of Clothing in Identity and Emotional Expression [05:01 - 07:30]

Discussing the impact of school uniforms, Bella recounts her transition to an American school without uniforms, which sparked her awareness of clothing as a form of self-expression. She narrates an incident where she wore a special outfit to feel different and cope with unhappiness, illustrating how clothing can serve as emotional armor.

Notable Quotes:

• Bella Freud [05:01]: "It's always about the emotional feeling. It's never really about the physical interpretation."
• Trinny Woodall [06:54]: "It really is about some sort of conformity that made you also visible in a safe way."

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4. Dressing for Success in Business and Personal Life [07:30 - 11:21]

The conversation shifts to how Bella and Trinny approach dressing for professional settings. Bella emphasizes the importance of color and structure in her wardrobe, while Trinny shares her strategy of wearing feminine yet structured outfits to convey strength without sacrificing softness.

Notable Quotes:

• Bella Freud [08:00]: "It Needs to be businesslike, but I need to feel. If it's a long day and I'm tired, it won't show through."
• Trinny Woodall [09:52]: "It's about the triangle of shoulder and the kind of how you convey strength."

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5. Personal Fashion Stories and Experiments [11:21 - 20:31]

Bella narrates her recent experiment with a leopard print dress for a date, detailing how embracing her signature style helped her feel confident and authentic. Trinny discusses her approach to creating a balance between professionalism and femininity in her fashion brand, highlighting the strategic use of textures and colors.

Notable Quotes:

• Bella Freud [13:15]: "I showed a feminine side, but I had a jacket."
• Trinny Woodall [19:31]: "He gets me."

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6. Obsessions with Work, Skincare, and Personal Well-being [20:31 - 29:24]

Bella delves into her obsession with skincare innovation, explaining her journey to develop a product that reduces cortisol levels to combat stress-induced skin issues. Trinny shares her own obsessions with feeling grounded and managing stress, discussing techniques like mindset shifts and self-compassion to maintain balance.

Notable Quotes:

• Bella Freud [22:45]: "So I was most obsessed. Probably I'm most obsessed in my work."
• Trinny Woodall [25:43]: "I think my biggest obsession is how to feel good."

---

7. The Psychology of Clothing and Attraction [29:24 - 34:03]

The discussion explores how clothing affects attraction and perception. Bella emphasizes valuing the intellect over attire, while Trinny reflects on how aesthetic presentation can complement one's personality and intelligence, fostering deeper connections.

Notable Quotes:

• Bella Freud [32:13]: "I generally fancy people's brains, so it sort of doesn't matter."
• Trinny Woodall [33:37]: "It's like an asset being so badly dressed."

---

8. Overcoming Shame and Embracing Authenticity [34:03 - 39:58]

Both Bella and Trinny share personal experiences with shame related to clothing. Bella recalls uncomfortable moments from her boarding school days, which influenced her approach to fashion and self-expression. Trinny discusses using clothing as a protective barrier against shame, striving to present a strong exterior while seeking internal fulfillment.

Notable Quotes:

• Bella Freud [34:29]: "I was being different and doing these different."
• Trinny Woodall [37:16]: "I just wanted to be with them. I felt so outside."

---

9. Building a Fashion Legacy and Entrepreneurial Drive [39:58 - 49:54]

The conversation concludes with Bella reflecting on her early forays into fashion and entrepreneurship, crediting her sense of difference and creativity for her success. Trinny discusses her journey in building Trinny London, emphasizing relentless drive and the perpetual pursuit of innovation as key to maintaining momentum and fulfillment in her career.

Notable Quotes:

• Bella Freud [43:15]: "So if I could, you know, there was no Benetton in London, you know, and I sort of brought Benetton, bright color, you know, things like that."
• Trinny Woodall [49:41]: "If you're an entrepreneur, you never are going to feel fully fulfilled."

---

10. Conclusion and Final Thoughts [49:41 - 49:54]

Bella and Trinny wrap up the episode on a warm note, expressing mutual appreciation for the insightful and relaxing conversation.

Notable Quote:

• Trinny Woodall [49:48]: "Thank you."

---

Key Takeaways:

• Clothing as Emotional Armor: Both guests highlight how fashion serves as a means to protect, express, and navigate personal identities and emotions.

• Impact of Upbringing: Early experiences with clothing and family influence significantly shape one's fashion sense and relationship with self-expression.

• Balancing Professionalism and Authenticity: Navigating the fine line between appearing professional and staying true to one's personal style is crucial for authentic self-presentation.

• Entrepreneurial Drive vs. Fulfillment: The relentless pursuit of business goals can lead to a perpetual state of ambition, where fulfillment is continuously sought rather than achieved.

• Psychological Aspects of Fashion: The interplay between fashion, stress, and self-perception underscores the deep psychological connections individuals have with their attire.

---

This episode of "Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud" offers a profound exploration of how fashion intertwines with personal identity, emotional well-being, and professional life, providing listeners with rich insights into the unspoken language of clothing.

Transcript

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[Trinny Woodall]

Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. Trinny Woodall Can I ask you why did you choose what you're wearing today?

[Bella]

It's not totally me what I'm wearing today because this is very classic and I hate too classic. I had a few things to do today where I was doing something on camera earlier then I was in a meeting where I needed to be very present. So colour is really important. I knew I was coming to you. I did think about the flow of something to be comfortable and not constrained as you talk and lying flat. What would also be a nice shot of colour? I didn't know the colour of your setting and in some filming I would think about it too. So lots of thoughts went through my head.

[Trinny Woodall]

What were the first items of clothing you focused on and longed for as a child?

[Bella]

The memories are very strong. I have no memories of childhood apart from memories of my clothes. It's quite mad, but it's true. A few things bring to mind There was a time I was obsessed with this coat and I was about six and there is actually a picture of us in this place in Switzerland called Kitzburg, but it had this sort of little. It was a line this would have been late 60s with sort of sheepskin Little collar and. And in tears. Sheepskin as well. And it was either. I think it was red and the white and I was obsessed with it. I loved it. I don't remember buying it or anything. I mean I don't remember being with my mother in shop but I remember wearing it. And my mother dressed all three of us identically. I think tragically for my brother until we were about. He was about seven of just these just not like everyday use. But there's many pictures of us where we're in the same sort of print for bikinis and boxer shorts. He wasn't in a bikini but there was one where we all wore the same coat and it was this very classic tweed blue coat with a little more sort of teal velvet collar and patent shoes. So we all actually had the patent shoes. His were just slightly different shape and little white socks.

[Trinny Woodall]

And was he wearing a little tiered white and red sheep?

[Bella]

No, he wasn't in that. I think what I loved about that it was that I got to wear it without it being what we all wore. Yeah.

[Trinny Woodall]

Did your mother buy you lots of things? Because we had very, very little. And I remember for some amazing reason we'd. We had a thing each from me and my sister. We had something from Kids in Gear which was this really trendy shop in the 60s for children and I had these orangey red bell bottom trousers that were so tight that they acted as a sort of guard.

[Bella]

You remember things when there's fewer, don't you?

[Trinny Woodall]

Yeah, you really do.

[Bella]

I would say we went through phases because we went through phase where there was sort of a slightly opulent lifestyle and we went through phases where there wasn't. So there are occasions when there's this special item of clothing but I never remember having opening up to a big wardrobe ever. But I do remember these special things.

[Trinny Woodall]

When did you start to feel clothes could be a tool in your life? Do you remember the first time you found a piece of clothing that made you feel different?

[Bella]

Yes. I went to boarding school very early from six and a half and when I was 10 I then went for a year to an American school where they didn't have school uniform. So the whole dynamic changed because when you grow up with school uniform you don't think about clothing so much or I didn't and it was quite strict. There was a Sunday where you could wear a jumper of your choice but otherwise it was really much a school uniform location. So this American school threw me and I remember one outfit that I got and I felt special and different in it. And then I ruined it. And it was this paisley printed top in sort of turquoises with a round collar made of sort of cotton, long sleeved. And then it was these magical turquoise, very wide leg bottom like your orange ones, Bella corduroy trousers. And I wanted to wear them so desperately. And it was a rainy day and I knew we were going for a walk in the woods as a school trip. My mother said, don't wear it because you'll ruin it. And I had to wear it. I just had to wear it because I was very, very unhappy in this school. I felt I had no friends. And I just thought if I wear something really fabulous, life will be okay. And so I was. This outfit had to deliver so much for me. And I remember going to school and wearing it. I don't remember at all what people thought about it because it was too many years ago. But I remember we went in the woods and we were in mud. And I remember I came home and they were sort of. There was this much of a mud stain and we could never fully get it out. And I was so upset because these are things that it was just the most incredible combination of outfit. And I remember even I wore it with this little chain belt whenever I bought them out. Again, they were slightly spoiled.

[Trinny Woodall]

It's so interesting. I mean, what you say about uniform is. I believe in that because our uniform was abolished. And I longed for this conformity and how you describe clothes and how they were almost mood altering because they were about somehow some sort of conformity that made you also visible in a safe way. And it's so ironic that they didn't necessarily even notice what you were wearing. But you had this magic thing and it delivers emotionally.

[Bella]

It's always about the emotional feeling. It's never really about the physical interpretation. No, it's about protection or it's about hiding or it's about being visible.

[Trinny Woodall]

I think I just reinvented not having a school uniform in my. In my fashion brand. I just. My suits are just permutations of. And because we didn't have a tie, which is what I particularly long for, I just made my own one now and I wear it all the time.

[Bella]

I do see your suits in my wardrobe as my uniform. Like I've got to do this BBC thing where I talk about being a CEO as a businesswoman. I'm three days of filming, but I have to wear the same thing. And I'm going to wear your blue suit. I thought already because I just want a good color. It Needs to be businesslike, but I need to feel. If it's a long day and I'm tired, it won't show through. And, you know, the colour will take me through the day.

[Trinny Woodall]

You look so pretty in that pale blue.

[Bella]

I love that blue suit.

[Trinny Woodall]

In fact, where do you start with an outfit?

[Bella]

Depends what mood I'm in. I think if I wake up and I look in the mirror and I think, I feel exhausted. I'll start with my makeup. No, I'll start with my skin and then I'll do my makeup and then I'll think, okay, now I'm ready. And I've got a room sort of the size of this room, which is my study and my wardrobe. So I'll then, as I'm doing my makeup, I'll sort of cast my eye around the room and think, what am I being inspired to wear? And I'll do it that way. But if I wake up feeling great, I'll go upstairs because my bedroom's downstairs. I'll go upstairs into this room and I'll think, okay, what do I want to bring on today? I'll look at my diary. I'll look at the weather now. I'll look at the weather first. Very first thing I do. Weather. Rain, not rain. And then there's this thing. If it's. There's certain things. So if it's below 9 degrees. No, below 10 degrees, it's a coat. If it's below 15 degrees or 17 degrees, it's a jacket. And then it would be a top. So weather is very important. And color, what colour? I feel I'm quite drawn by color and what I'm doing in my day. So I might, if I'm doing very sort of business day, meeting after meeting, it will probably be some form of a uniform, some form of a suit. It will be some form of shoulder. Shoulder is everything to me.

[Trinny Woodall]

I love that. We had such an interesting conversation in my shop about shoulder. And you've got this special T shirt that you wear with shoulder pads. And I'm obsessed with this triangle of shoulder and the kind of how you convey strength, really, where you go out a couple of millimeters, even you're a slightly more dangerous option.

[Bella]

I was dressing something yesterday. I had to do some magazine shoot, and there was a dress I was going to put on. And I thought, do I put shoulder pads in it? Because it's nearly an automatic reaction to me. And then I thought, no, this is a image that needs to show vulnerability. And shoulders show strength. And there's moments when, like, if you're going on a date, how soft is the texture of that fabric and how structured you want to be? And I'm much more comfortable in structure. I find it safer to be in structure. So to be sexy and soft is far more of a challenge to me than to be structured and safe.

[Trinny Woodall]

So what do you. What's your kind of default? I know you don't really have them, but you seem so sort of. You're so analytical about how you wear things. But in a way, to go on a date is where you have to discard all your foils and your.

[Bella]

Or do you. This is the thing. I have a friend of mine who is beautiful, unbelievably clever. She's, like, the cleverest woman I know. And she is a scientist, but she has a big company. So we were talking about concept dating, and she said, trinny, men don't like sequins, platform boots, big prints they can't understand, and textures that aren't soft. And she's very like this. She'll literally do this. And I'm like, I get that, but that's what I am. So how much do you change what you are to fit in for a first date? And there's a balance between feeling okay to feel a little sexy. There's so many rules around dating, so there's this thing of don't try too hard on a first date, because then you can lean into how you want to feel in terms of what you want to reveal. So I've been challenging myself to do some things differently recently. So I went out last Friday, and somebody had set me up, and it was four of us, and I had done this little Closet Confessions, which is this filming I do with Chloe, whose curvy shaped different from me. And we did Dressing for a Date, and I shared with her the challenge of I don't know how to dress for a date. I'm recently single, and I haven't done it for years. And it was how, you know, it's about undoing that top button. I hate to undo the top button. Yeah, we just. We don't like to undo. The top button means everything. It means structure. It means sharpness. It means so much. So to undo the top button and then to wear a fitted dress. Really? No. But I did then on Friday, think I texted this woman. I said, what are you wearing? She said, I'm wearing a red fitted dress. So I thought, okay. So I put on this leopard fitted dress. Wow. With leopard shoes, a leopard bag, and a leopard jacket. I thought, fuck it, you know, I just thought, this is me. I love to lean in. If I lean into a print, it's leopard. So I did. And the dress was a 39 pound dress from Zara. The jacket was a Stella McCartney five seasons ago or five years ago where I have a gilet from it. And I love the type of size of print. The shoes were a liar and sexy as fuck and the bag was, I don't know what. So I walk into this restaurant and I had felt already, you know, that moment where sometimes getting ready is the best part of it. And when I got ready and I left, I thought, I'm feeling good. You know, when you, you have that moment, this is good, this is working. And I sat down and I didn't know this person who I was being set up with. So I focused my attentions on talking to the other two people a bit, but sort of politely including them in the conversation. But I noticed they couldn't stop looking and I thought this was a good one. I don't know if I like them or not, but I just thought that that was a good one. That was actually a good decision because I showed a feminine side, but I had a jacket. Leopard print is something that my friend might say, men can't understand print so well, but leopard print doesn't sit there, it sits somewhere else.

[Trinny Woodall]

You just never know, you know, And I think the more you kind of reduce anyone or then the less chance you have of making having some sort of connection.

[Bella]

But yes, but then in a way it's that balance banner, isn't it, between this is me, this is me. Hi. So let's cut out the chaff at the get go. And if they can't deal with this element which I'm going to bring in at some stage of the conversation or have it at the beginning, then they're not for me.

[Trinny Woodall]

Yeah, I think I. I don't undo the top button, but I like to wear something that I could imagine someone touching and would feel great. Like this silk shirt.

[Bella]

Exactly. You have that sensorial, tight but sensorial. I mean fitted, but it's just sort of hiding.

[Trinny Woodall]

But if things go well, it will feel nice.

[Bella]

Yeah, that's very good.

[Trinny Woodall]

That's my secret strategy.

[Bella]

And even you see, to me, when I look at you now, if you didn't have the pearl across the tie, it would be severe. But the pearl across the tie breaks up the severity of it and makes it feel. There's something I want to undress.

[Trinny Woodall]

Aha. Yeah, I'll go On a date with.

[Bella]

You, then it is these little.

[Trinny Woodall]

It is those things of center details about. Sometimes it's just luminosity that you get into someone's head or even if you don't, you sort of think, oh, maybe I'm vaguely. Some of that light has caught and it's something to think about even if nothing goes anywhere.

[Bella]

So how many silk shirts are you making?

[Trinny Woodall]

Well, as many as possible because it took.

[Bella]

Did you make this one?

[Trinny Woodall]

Yeah, this is.

[Bella]

Why did I not see this one? Because the color is everything on this one.

[Trinny Woodall]

Yeah.

[Bella]

Is this a new one or an old one?

[Trinny Woodall]

It's an old one, but it, It's a repeated. It's like part of the icons collection. So it's always there. But because people were slow to buy shirts, because a lot of women won't wear a shirt because they. For all the reasons that we like the top collar done up. This container.

[Bella]

Yeah.

[Trinny Woodall]

But I, I feel that a. A suit can look best with a good. With the right shirt. Not a cotton, but this kind of this silky slinky thing. So it's not masculine. It's just suggestive.

[Bella]

Yeah.

[Trinny Woodall]

And I think boyish is very feminine, whereas masculine is just man. I don't want to look like a man at all.

[Bella]

Yeah.

[Trinny Woodall]

But I look more feminine as a boy and I love to create that for other people.

[Bella]

Boyish as opposed to mannish.

[Trinny Woodall]

Manish is like, no way.

[Bella]

Yeah. Whereas I can sometimes do more mannish than boyish. When I'm just wanting to. Probably a part of me saying, please don't mess with me because I'm going to. With you. You know, I would just. There's an element of. Yeah. Like going to investor meetings. I would definitely say I dress manish.

[Trinny Woodall]

Not boyish because I do the opposite when I go to investor meetings. I. I think my. One of my strengths is to be sort of not testosterone, not head to head there. They can do that. And if I can be a little more gentle and. But with good ideas, I feel I'll get listened to or noticed. My ideas will get heard. And now I believe that it seems. Anyway, they're all very polite and.

[Bella]

Can I analyze you now?

[Trinny Woodall]

Yeah.

[Bella]

Because I'd say from that that one still needs the wily way of a femininity of a woman to deal in a man's world.

[Trinny Woodall]

I completely agree.

[Bella]

Whereas I am. I want to find the man who doesn't believe that still. And the other ones I will discard. So when they want to put me in this role of seeing me as a woman, as opposed to a person, I feel my most confrontative because I'm a person coming to you for investment. I'm not a woman coming to you for investment. So I probably maybe would have had more success because I went to, you know, I wrote to you on 50 people, I went to 50 investors, and I got one investment, but I got the right investor and I got somebody who knew what I was. And the thing is, you are what you dress like in that regard, so they're going to get what you are, and I will get what I am.

[Trinny Woodall]

Yeah, I. I know exactly what you're saying. And in a way, the person who invested in me, he likes. He's quite aesthetic. He likes product, he likes a look.

[Bella]

Yeah. And I felt like your language.

[Trinny Woodall]

He gets me.

[Bella]

Yeah.

[Trinny Woodall]

Even if we don't were so different. And so that was a kind of communal language. And. Yeah, it's. I feel like when I go into those rooms full of men that they possibly think I've not. I don't really understand her, but she's on to something.

[Bella]

Yeah.

[Trinny Woodall]

I hope they do anyway. But that's what I hope. Because I can't do their thing, but I know I can do mine. So I try to do the best version of my communication.

[Bella]

Yeah.

[Trinny Woodall]

Which is about illuminating ideas and showing that I'm willing to make compromises.

[Bella]

Whereas I didn't want to compromise.

[Trinny Woodall]

Well, nor do I, but I don't think anyone does. But I want to get ahead.

[Bella]

I want to move forward and to make it happen.

[Trinny Woodall]

Yeah.

[Bella]

And sometimes one has to.

[Trinny Woodall]

Do you have any obsessions at the moment?

[Bella]

With what kind of things?

[Trinny Woodall]

Well, I mean, you seem like someone who potentially, you. You h. You have loads and you're so noticing. But is there anything uppermost at the moment? Have you got, like, a particular pet? I mean, one of my obsessions at the moment is actually your tinted moisturizer, the bff. Because it's so effective, I put it on and it's like retouch. I mean, as much as good as I can get at this point, but it's just fantastic.

[Bella]

I've got obsessions on. What have I got obsessions on? I can be obsessed with clothes. I can be obsessed with the concept of something I want to have in my wardrobe that I feel is missing, and then I can think, okay, let me go on a quest of what that is. I can be very obsessed in my Wednesday MPD meetings of what I'm developing next and be really obsessed about, because for me, skincare is always about doing something truly innovative. Like, makeup isn't, because everyone's done really everything in makeup. So you might bring out something where it's just a different texture slightly, but you're still not reinventing your lipstick, you know, so maybe it's that it's just a beautiful color and the texture is actually just using some more ingredients, and then you've got a beautiful thing. It comes in. If I were to ever do a lipstick, you know, which I don't do right now, but skincare, it starts with an idea, and then I become obsessed to find the solution for that idea. So usually I. So I either find an incredible ingredient, and I think, what is that going to really work in? So I found this. I was researching stress a few years ago and the effect of stress on our skin. And I became obsessed with looking at what ingredients can destroy cortisol, because cortisol is what shows on your face because you release it, and its effect on your face can be dehydration, and you can look wizened and tired. Lots of things. So I then found this plant, and then I found someone in Switzerland who'd made the plant into a compound, which then became an ingredient. So then I got the clinical trials from the lab, and then I thought, okay, it does a 20% reduction in cortisol at 2%. So then I brought it to our lab and I then started testing. If I do more, will I get better results? So I then put in 10%. It's quite an expensive ingredient, 10% of this thing, neoproline, and started testing it. It was during COVID and it was very challenging to test because there weren't people. They usually test on, like, 50 people. So we had to send it all to them, and it took them forever. So I was testing on myself and I was obsessed. I was obsessed that I should get a result because I thought, this is like. This is innovation, because this is like, you think it's a product to just make some coverage, but it's going to do so much more. And I started with just it being a serum. And then when I got these results, I then thought, actually, I'll put pigment in. And it was a very obsessive project.

[Trinny Woodall]

And is that.

[Bella]

And this is something called BFF de stress, which is another one. But it does reduce stress. You put it on after about an hour, the neophrolia starts to work on cortisol that you're producing, and you literally look in the mirror. Two hours later, let's. You woke up and you were stressed, you hadn't slept well. And you just were releasing too much cortisol. You put it on and then. Because how I knew, the day I knew it was working right, I was woke up, it was during COVID time, but there was somebody who could come to the door. Because I remember this woman came to the door to do something and she was always this effusive person. She's Colombian, always complimentary, and I always find it irritating. And so I'd woken up knowing I looked like shit. I put this stuff on, I was still testing it, and then about two hours later, she arrived at the door and she went, trin, you look so amazing. What are you doing? And I was like, please, I know I look shit. Don't just see it. She said, no, no, no, no, no. So I went to look in the mirror and it was like, I wasn't that person. I looked at the morning, I thought, fuck, it works, works. It was so like. And that's obsession to me. So I'm most obsessed. Probably I'm most obsessed in my work. That's my top obsession. My secondary obsession would be something that I'm craving, like food, an ingredient to eat, or clothing. And then obsessions that come and they go very quickly, you know, like somebody you meet and then they text you, and then you're obsessing about it, and then you actually take a step back and think, do I actually like them or not? No, actually. And then the obsession's gone. Yeah, in a flash. In two days, in an hour. Yeah, it is.

[Trinny Woodall]

It's.

[Bella]

What is your biggest obsession?

[Trinny Woodall]

Well, I think my biggest obsession is how to feel good.

[Bella]

Really? In what way?

[Trinny Woodall]

Well, in any way I can that makes me feel grounded, centered and energetic. And at the moment, I'm really stressed and I. And I feel very like, you know, I need some of that de stressed. Pff. Too much cortisol.

[Bella]

So what's stressing you the most?

[Trinny Woodall]

Oh, I've got sort of in every area, maybe apart from romantically, I'm stressed and. But I know. I know that I want to go forward and I want to be kind of excited and connected and to do the next thing. So I then think, what can I do? What? Of all the things that I've learned to do that make me feel sort of centered and grounded and I have actually learned to do loads of things. So at the moment, I'm obsessed with that.

[Bella]

Doing things that make you feel centered and grounded.

[Trinny Woodall]

Yeah. And then if I can get back to that space, then I can do. I feel I can do anything. I have huge Drive. But I started to notice that drive isn't everything because you can drive. And then suddenly nothing, it's empty. And I. And so there are all sorts of different things. But even knowing that instead of I must climb to Mount Olympus and when I get there I'll feel better, which is actually exhaust, you know, it doesn't necessarily. It's not necessarily the answer. So this is a kind of new phase of, you know, using willpower in a slightly different way.

[Bella]

Yeah, yeah. Drive without fulfillment is interesting because we can be automatically driven because it's in our nature to be driven. Yeah, but it's like you don't. It's like you're really hungry and you don't get to have fulfilling meal and you need to eat well at the end of it for that drive to not feel empty. And then it's like if we don't get enough REM sleep, because I'm obsessed with sleep at the moment. So there's a guy called Matthew Walker and he wrote this book called why We Sleep. And he does a five part pod podcast with Andrew Huberman who does the Hooverman Lab. It's a science podcast, but in it I'm learning the difference. And I've started wearing this ring.

[Trinny Woodall]

Oh yeah, I hate those rings.

[Bella]

I know. I'm actually fucking loving it. But what it's interesting to do is, you know, when we wake up and we feel anxious and worrying and sometimes we worry and then we remember less things and we think, God, I didn't remember that. Didn't remember. And there is a little bit of that which is about the stress and where stress sits inside your brain and your short term versus long term memories. There's a bit of that. But then if you don't have enough REM sleep, then it's like your brain processor. So at the end of the evening your brain, brain would decide, what shall I remember and what can I discard? So if you don't back up the hard disk drive the next day, you will compound that feeling of stress.

[Trinny Woodall]

I know that makes complete sense, but I also find if I disregard that entirely, I've slept badly and I think I've slept badly, but I don't necessarily have to be tired or I can have some of the day where I've got that fake energy. So that's the bit that I'm going to riff off.

[Bella]

Yeah.

[Trinny Woodall]

And then I'm a bit more sort of compassionate to self about being slightly gaga the rest of the time. And I try out all various tricks like my, I have this analyst who I've seen for about 14 years, and sometimes he says, why don't you try not being tired? And I thought, okay, I'll try. You know, why not? Instead of, I can't, you know, because I spent a lot of time being tired and everything, and I'm trying out all these. It's a bit like sort of ice skating, going all over the place, but. And so that's why I don't like. I know I obviously haven't got the ring that my friends have got too, but I don't want to get too preoccupied.

[Bella]

I. I think I'm not preoccupied with it. The difference for me is it will make me remember if I go to sleep an hour earlier and I don't stay up scrolling or whatever I do, I'll feel better the next day. So it prepares me to try it differently the next night. So I find it's more that I will feel propelled to know what to do the next night. But also, I do believe 100% in what you're saying when your therapist says, just say to yourself, I'm not tired because I can get up, feel exhausted, think I know I can take nnm, I'm going to go through loo, I'll have a cold shower and I'll feel fine. And I think that psychological training of your brain to say, switch that mindset, reset, it's incredibly powerful. I met two weeks ago, I met Deepak Chopra, and I listened to him about 25 years ago at the Royal Geographical Society, and he said this story, which always stayed with me, and when I met him for the first time ever at this conference, and I said, I remember you telling the story. And he'd remember this story that five or six men get down a mine in South Africa and they're stuck and they're in this mine and only one of them is wearing a watch. And that person decides that when an hour has passed, he will only tell them half an hour has passed. So in the 10 days they were down there, the other five thought they'd been down there five days. And he was the only one who died because he knew, and his body knew how long they'd been there. But the others had a reset from this guy, and it just always stuck with me. The ability for our brain to tell our body something different, which is what you're saying or what your therapist is saying.

[Trinny Woodall]

It's like some sort of optimism within that, isn't it?

[Bella]

Yeah.

[Trinny Woodall]

On another note, can I ask you if you fancy someone and you don't like what they're wearing. Does it kill your attraction or how do you handle it?

[Bella]

I generally fancy people's brains, so it sort of doesn't matter. It's like, do they have a sexy brain? And I've been out with so many mixtures of people, some who have an unbelievable sense of humor, but weren't classic Eagle. Good looking, being an Italian or two who maybe was classically good looking, but other bits. And they were going to dress well too, but didn't have substance. You've been down that road too, I think, Bella. But it is that brain thing. And so I'll notice what they wear, but I won't judge them for what they wear. Yeah, yeah. Like I was with somebody who wore the same thing every day for 10 years.

[Trinny Woodall]

But I think that's fine. It's much. It's more confronting when it's sort of fancy stuff or, you know, like a fashiony look. And then it's so embarrassing.

[Bella]

It depends what turns you on. Yeah, what turns you on? Aesthetics turn you on a little bit?

[Trinny Woodall]

Well, it depends. I mean, I think most people are sort of brain lovers and sapiosexual, I think they call it. And it's so exciting that sometimes people can be just revoltingly dressed and then because they're clever and funny. It's like an asset being so badly dressed.

[Bella]

It is. So I think it's. I don't know how relevant it is if somebody's too well dressed. That makes me suspicious. You know, if everything's just so perfect, I'm like, there's not going to be much substance here.

[Trinny Woodall]

Substance. Or do you think there'll be over critical or kind of exactingness about their outfit that might spill out over onto your outfit? That's what I'd be worried about.

[Bella]

No, I'd just be more. I mean, I suppose I'm not then allowing a man to have the same obsessive way that I might put an outfit together. Maybe that's where I'm separating out what I give myself permission to do, but I find challenging for somebody else if they're just too. Everything's so perfect. I don't know. I don't know the answer to that.

[Trinny Woodall]

And how do you feel about being naked? Can you be naked or do you have to wear something that makes you feel safe naked because you've still got something on?

[Bella]

Yeah. I had an episode when I was much younger that made me nervous to be naked. And so it was actually a school moment. Not a kind of pervy one, but one where it did have an impact and it was one where I was really quite young, probably seven, and we were at a boarding school and we were in. It was the summer, it was really hot and we had a water fight and we were all naked, you know, young girls naked. And the woman below us at the school was the called Ms. Dunk. Never forget her name. And she came upstairs and she said, you have to all go and stand by the gong. And the gong was at the bottom staircase. And we start to get dressed. She said, no, as you are. So we all stood naked. It was about sort of 6:00am until 8:00am when everyone had come down for breakfast. 300 girls. Wow. Yeah. So I think. I do think I can actually pinpoint. I wouldn't think anyone would have to do therapy on this, that it made me very uncomfortable to be looked at naked. And it continued for years and years and years until I was married for many years to my partner. And then uncomfortable a little bit again. No. Then probably until I was married to Johnny. Yeah, until I was married Johnny. And he made me very, very comfortable in my own skin and he loved me so much. So I felt, you know, the freedom to then be comfortable with each aspect of myself. Yeah.

[Trinny Woodall]

Gosh, that's really quite something that. Yeah, that's like a terrifying French film being lined up.

[Bella]

It seems then always when you put things into decades, because it was probably still maybe it was 1971. You know, this is like a. How many years ago? So many years ago. This is 53 years ago. It sounds like, wow, when I say 53 years ago. But it's a different life, a different time, a different way to punish children.

[Trinny Woodall]

Yeah, it's very, very humiliating and shaming. In fact, I was going to ask you if you remember feeling shame about anything you wore.

[Bella]

Oh, that's a good one. Shame. No, because shame is about. There's guilt and shame and just I remember learning, you know, we both learned the difference between those two. Shame. Shame is a very specific word to use around clothing.

[Trinny Woodall]

Yeah.

[Bella]

You know, so I don't know I'm going to ask you that question.

[Trinny Woodall]

I think part of why I'm so interested in clothes is maybe as a sort of protecting device from shame. And I think it was to do with when we were growing up and we, we grew up with no money. My mother had no money. My father didn't give her any thing much and so. And she was a hippie and we didn't have many clothes. And then she was wearing a velvet caftan in the 60s and so people focused on us, but in a very negative way. And so clothes I wanted to wear, I just wanted to be like a boy, really. And that was part of my, my, my shield. And I remember when I was eight and we come back from living in Marrakech and it was very hand to mouth and I was living with a friend of my. Both my parents, even though they weren't together and we were traveling around Gloucestershire, I think, in gypsy caravans and they were upper class hippies. And remember going to the post office and the people in the post office said, oh, she's one of those hippies. And I thought I was like a gypsy, like a cool person. And I was so mortified and I had. I. I remember what I was wearing. I was wearing navy blue jumper, like scruffy scratch, some old cords. And I had a thing, a kerchief around my throat to try and be as much like sort of Heathcliff or someone. You know, I'm not part of anything. I wanted to be with them.

[Bella]

Yeah.

[Trinny Woodall]

And I felt so outside. And so when I'm getting dressed, I, I start with this feeling of like, how can I unify my, my thoughts and my best look? And I usually start with a. If I'm wearing a train, I usually start with a sock. For some reason, socks make me feel really good.

[Bella]

My daughter feels identical about socks. I think it's interesting though, because for you, it's the. That jumper for you is the naked at the end of the stairs. For me that it is the basis for how you think about certain things and it's been systemically stamped on, you know, so there's that feeling you get from it.

[Trinny Woodall]

At my school, they. I went to a Steiner school and the teachers all wear. Wore Birkenstocks and I thought they were the most repulsive things and I hated them and I still don't wear them. I've got some that look a bit more trendy, like platforms, but they, I somehow I started to realize that clothes could give you power. They could set you apart from being sort of blinded out from these awful, dull, dreary teachers telling you everything you couldn't do. No one bothered to say what you could. But yeah, so if somebody appreciated clothes, it was, it was a real. It was so much more than that, really. It was like a vote of you. I know you've talked openly. I mean, I've looked at some of your interviews where you've talked openly about addiction in your past and you've been sober for decades. And addiction is also Associated with self doubt. Yet I've known you actually since the 80s. I think I met you briefly then I've known you slightly for a long time. And you seem so confident and now more than ever you seem kind of liberated and so cool. And it's such a joy to watch you just doing these things. And when you describe, you know, all those letters that you had to write and people not taking you up and then someone did, but it's really you. And how do you. How do you get this? I mean, it is quite remarkable. You are a phenomenon. When I was.

[Bella]

I feel it though, like in the 80s when you would have known me and I was copiously using drugs like you know, everybody. And I remember my sense of self versus people's perception of me was very different. And I remember feeling less than and different and not different in a good way of celebrating myself because I didn't quite know myself, but in a way of feeling I'm a fraud. You know, I had that feeling. So much of feeling I'm a fraud and never looking at did other people feel the same because we didn't think that the time, we only thought about ourselves. So.

[Trinny Woodall]

But what do you think kept you going forward? Because I remember meeting you and you saying that you had an accessories business with hair. Hair accessories. And at the time I was working for Vivienne Westwood and I thought, how does she know that she can influence people in to buy these things. I was really struck because I was working for Vivian, who was sort of super cool. But I definitely didn't have the confidence to delineate that somebody should buy something that I'd made not till many years later. And where do you. Where did that come from? Did your.

[Bella]

I think it came from feeling different from the people I went to school with. So at boarding school from like 11 to 16, I was the one living abroad and everyone else lived in England and I would sort of bring things from abroad. So I like to be the purveyor of having something different and that gave me my self worse. So if I could, you know, there was no Benetton in London, you know, and I sort of brought Benetton, bright color, you know, things like that. And people like, oh, and I just thought this gave me a. I was terrible at school. I was never good at games. I was quite good at theatricals and always played the male leads and Shakespeare plays. But that was the only thing I was good at. And also I left my boarding school at 16 because I'd been at boarding school since six and a half. I was so fucking fed up with boarding school. And then I went to Queensgate in London and my parents were still in Germany. And that's when I started to. And all the girls who were at Queensgate, a lot of them were English and they all then 17, 18. They were sort of being a debutante and we were sort of doing all this stuff together. But I never felt a part of any of these people. But I know some of them thought I was cool, but I didn't. I just felt I wasn't part of them. But I did have a sense. Probably I was more curated in my fashion. So I would go to Annabelle's and wear my dad's Turnbull and Assa pyjamas with his cover coat, you know, So I would. I would just wear these things because I didn't have the pretty dress from that shop that used to be Antiquarius that everyone went to. Fielding something. David Fielding. Or, you know, these kind of debutante or the ones with all the frill from Beecham Place. That woman, you know, Belleville, Sassoon. Belleville Sassoon. And they would all have these very sort of pretty dresses that their mothers, when they were debs, would have gone to. You know, it was that kind of historical repetition of dressing. And I didn't have that reference. My mother was not the peacock in our family. My father was interestingly interesting. And so he had far more beautiful clothes than my mother. My mother had had lovely clothes, but she didn't care about clothes at all. She was Scottish and didn't care so much about fashion. My father would buy her clothes for her and then when he stopped doing that, she just bought, okay, boring sweet things, but nothing like, you know, grabby. But my dad would, you know, always brush his suits at night and polish his shoes. And he had this real sense of color and proportion and everything. So that's probably why I borrowed his clothes and not my mother's.

[Trinny Woodall]

That's so good.

[Bella]

So that was very different. They were all in bevelle Sassoon. I was in my dad's pajamas. And so if I look back now, I could say, actually then I was being different and doing these different. So with this hair bow thing, I just thought, you know, everyone wanted these hair bows and they were boring. So I thought I'd go to Portobello Market and Bermondsey Market and I'll get these little beautiful De Monte brooches, which you got for £1. They'd be like £35 a day. And I did it with a very creative girl, Katie Brain. And so she ended up going to art school and being a potter. But at the time, between the two of us, we just did these. And then I just. I went to Scott Kroler and he's sold them for me.

[Trinny Woodall]

Wow.

[Bella]

Because I'd done some fashion show for Ruth de Can and Thomas Darjeski and all these people, and they were doing things. And Tracy Boyd, you remember that sort of group. And I met Scott, I think he was going out with Ruth and so got him there. And then I just walked into Harvey Nichols and just said, come on, take these. And Princess Diana was really, like, trending then, and she was just doing. Don't know how she could have done these hair faces. She had short bloody hair all her life. But somehow she instigated this.

[Trinny Woodall]

Wow.

[Bella]

And so then I did. But I was a great starter and not a finisher, Bella. So I would start it. And then Katie wanted to go to art school. I left Queensgate and it sort of petered out.

[Trinny Woodall]

Well, now you founded Trinny London and I mean, it's notorious. It's unheard of to break in a single person, to break into this world of beer moths. And it's incredibly successful. And, you know, everyone is obsessed with it and obsessed with you as well. When you do these things on instagram and on YouTube and there's just so much charm and so much enthusiasm, and you seem. I don't know, it's like you've done all these things in your life. You're such an achiever, even though you may not feel like it, but you seem like you've just found your way. You seem like you're just getting in your stride and it's thrilling. It's so kind of inspiring and it's so much fun. And I wondered how. How do you. You know, you've got this huge thing that you've built in a really short time and you're making these discoveries, and how do you kind of keep that going? You know, what do you bring to yourself? So you're the one. You're the kind of.

[Bella]

Because you're never done. I think you keep going. So you're never done. I think if you're an entrepreneur, you never. Like, when you say what you just said, I'm lying here. Think, please, can she stop giving confidence? Because it's beginning to. I'm finding it tricky. I find it very uncomfortable, actually, if I'm really candid with it. I just find it. It's very nice, but it's like, can we just get rid of that and then just get to the question so I can answer the question? That's how I fucking feel. But I think you never feel I've succeeded. Let me sit back and let's look at what's happened. All I look at is what I haven't done yet and what we haven't done yet as a business. And not in a way of punishing myself, but just I never look back and go, oh, look at all that. I look forward and think I want to do that. And then I do question sometimes if there's never this sense. I think when you choose to be a full entrepreneur, you're never going to feel fully fulfilled. That's a part of the journey of an entrepreneur, is you're never going to be the. I don't think you go into being an entrepreneur for that. Oh, one day I'll wake up and feel fulfilled moment. But you will be permanently pursuing your dream. And that in itself, that journey is what is exciting. So that's just how I see it.

[Trinny Woodall]

Well, thank you so much, Trini, for being on the couch and for being in fashion neurosis. It's been wonderful.

[Bella]

I've loved it. It's been incredibly relaxing and a great way to finish a day. Thank you.

[Trinny Woodall]

Thank you.