Fashion Neurosis with Zandra Rhodes

Summary

Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud

Episode: Fashion Neurosis with Zandra Rhodes

Recorded: October 1, 2025

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Main Theme: Fashion as Identity, Legacy, and Creative Courage

In this deeply personal and engaging conversation, Bella Freud (here addressed as Sam Baker) sits down with legendary designer Dame Zandra Rhodes to explore the ways fashion intersects with selfhood, heritage, rebellion, tenacity, and joy. Through anecdotes, reflection, and warm humor, Rhodes reveals how color, confidence, and craft have shaped her life—and how she, in turn, has colored the lives of others.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

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1. Zandra’s Outfit and Ritual of Dress

[01:19 - 02:24]

• Description of Today’s Look: Zandra chooses a vibrant dress from her collection for Spanish brand Celia B, writes “so I'd look very colourful on your couch today.” She wears jewelry by Andrew Logan and her signature painted sneakers.
• Creative Resilience: During lockdown, Rhodes taught online lessons for older adults, including “painting your sneakers so that they'd liven your life up.”

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2. Family Influence and Early Inspiration

[02:24 - 06:00]

• Mother as Muse: Zandra describes her mother as “this wonderful, exotic person,” recounting her audacity in moving to Paris in the 1930s to work for Worth without formal training.
  • “I just think how brave it was...someone in the 30s going to France and getting a job and doing something like that.” ([04:03])
• Mother’s Style: Her mother wore green lizard platforms and sprayed her hair silver, “always sort of wonderful” and unafraid of being different—a foundation for Zandra’s own boldness.
• Educational Impact: Her mother taught dressmaking, giving non-academic children a tangible skill and a future:
  • “They could end up with a career whereas they were considered hopeless in academics. And my mother took care of that with so many children...” ([05:18])

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3. Childhood Memories, School, and Artistic Development

[06:22 - 09:19]

• Personal Attitude Toward Uniformity: Zandra was content in her all-girls school uniform, reflecting a period of “weirdly boring” normalcy.
• Influential Teacher: Praises Barbara, her art school mentor who insisted on relentless drawing:
  • “You can't rely on talent, you have to work at it.” ([08:18])
• Drawing as Thinking Process: Even now, Rhodes starts her designs with painted sketches:
  • “I always paint the whole thing out first of all.” ([08:48])

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4. From Textile to Fashion Designer

[09:39 - 11:52]

• Early Collaborations: She befriended Ozzie Clark and Celia Birtwell, but couldn’t initially sell her vibrant textiles—considered “too extreme”—so she learned gar­ment making herself.
• American Breakthrough: “[Buyers] took me at face value, being a dress designer.” ([10:22])

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5. Beauty, Ugliness, and Creative Evolution

[11:11 - 12:45]

• Zandra reflects on her idea that “ugliness accentuates beauty”:
  • “You can do designs...that once was considered ugly...by working at it, it becomes beautiful or it becomes the next theme...” ([11:21])
• Flexible Aesthetics: Emphasizes the ever-changing ideals of beauty and the creative necessity of risk.

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6. Mentorship, Fame, and the Magic of Diana Vreeland

[12:45 - 14:07]

• Diana Vreeland’s Enthusiasm: The legendary Vogue editor provided Zandra her fairy-tale break, arranging for her clothes to be photographed and personally calling boutiques to stock them:
  • “It was like a living fairy tale that I don't believe but happened.” ([13:12])

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7. Personal Contrasts: Introversion and Visibility

[14:34 - 17:53]

• Zandra discusses dying her hair and shaving her eyebrows not as a means to attract, but to creatively express herself:
  • “I mean, what I design, I always imagine myself wearing.” ([17:53])
• Self-Authenticity: Critiques designers who don’t wear their own clothes:
  • “I'm selling Zandra Rhodes dream and hoping other people would like to be part of that dream.” ([17:53])

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8. Creative Collaboration and Performance: Divine, Andrew Logan, and the Alternative Miss World

[21:19 - 26:12]

• Friendship with Divine: Shares delightful stories of the camp icon at Christmas and his love of caftans:
  • “He had desires far beyond his pocket...so they banned him from various places.” ([22:49])
• Andrew Logan and The Alternative Miss World: Zandra has made outfits for the show’s “female half” since the early days. The event celebrates radical self-expression:
  • “It's that people go in for it and they can be men, women or machines. And one year a machine won it...” ([24:44])

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9. Institutional Legacy and Advocacy for the Arts

[26:12 - 31:59]

• Fashion and Textile Museum: She bought and invented this celebrated space to “invent this forum for people to see things.”
• Art Schools: Passionate defender of the UK’s art college system, advocating for creative education at all levels:
  • “Our art colleges were the best in the world. And I do hope that we keep people coming to them.” ([26:50])
• Warning Against Over-Digitization: Rhodes and Freud both stress the irreplaceable value of handwork, drawing, and physical making:
  • “If you don't learn that, it's like you break something in your system...that an idea actually comes not from a screen, but from your bloodstream almost.” (Sam, [30:17])
  • “I've been making sure that the different museums...have now got some of the dresses in each of the museums. So it's been a wonderful adventure for me.” ([47:20])

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10. Identity, Love, and Courage in Private Life

[31:59 - 41:13]

• Work-Life Balance: Zandra admits being a “workaholic” contributed to her relationships ending, until she met another workaholic, which became the perfect dynamic.
• Confidence with Men: Was never intimidated, partly through a strong, supportive mother.
• Family and Forgiveness: Only learned late in life of her father’s traumatic past, gaining empathy (“it brought out different bits of his character”).
• Humor in Romance: On men’s fashion sense: “I suppose they looked alright. Their character was something probably I found more intriguing.” ([40:18])

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11. Recognition, Royalty, and the Power of Acknowledgement

[41:10 - 44:36]

• Damehood Honored by the Queen:
  • “It's a great honor...feel that my work was appreciated.” ([41:13])
  • Describes her playful, “tiny hat with a rhinestone egg” at Buckingham Palace.
• Dressing Princess Diana: Shares stories of Diana’s patronage, recounting the pink pearl dress for the Japan pregnancy announcement and the thrill of seeing her designs at the historic charity auction.

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12. Facing Illness and Legacy with Courage

[44:36 - End]

• Facing Cancer with Determination: Zandra was practical upon her diagnosis—“it made me feel determined that I had to put my house in order”—prompting her to found the Zandra Rhodes Foundation and catalog her 6,000 archived dresses.
• Continued Passion for Work:
  • “I've had lots of work, so I can't complain.” ([47:46])
  • Her focus is on legacy, joy, and “not wallowing in self pity.”

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Memorable Quotes

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“I just think how brave it was to think of someone in the 30s going to France and getting a job and doing something like that.”
—Zandra Rhodes ([04:03])

“You can't rely on talent, you have to work at it.”
—Zandra Rhodes, quoting her art teacher Barbara ([08:18])

“I'm selling Zandra Rhodes dream and hoping other people would like to be part of that dream.”
—Zandra Rhodes ([17:53])

“Fashion is an art form as much as being a painter or being an industrial designer.”
—Zandra Rhodes ([26:50])

“If you stick at fashion long enough, you'll fall out of fashion and you'll suddenly coincide with it again and be popular.”
—Zandra Rhodes ([26:12])

“I refuse to wallow in self pity. I've had a fabulous life.”
—Zandra Rhodes ([44:36])

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Notable/Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• [01:24] — Zandra describes her bold, self-made outfit.
• [04:03] — Reflection on her mother’s intrepidity and creative legacy.
• [10:22] — How failing to sell textiles led her to dress design.
• [13:12] — Diana Vreeland’s magical intervention.
• [17:53] — The philosophy of wearing one’s own designs.
• [21:43] — Christmas memories with Divine.
• [24:44] — Story of a machine winning the Alternative Miss World.
• [26:50] — Advocacy for art as central to culture and personal development.
• [41:13] — Receiving her damehood and playfully shocking the establishment.
• [44:36] — On facing cancer, establishing her foundation, and building her legacy.

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Summary Style and Final Thoughts

Rhodes’ language throughout is warm, forthright, and down-to-earth—even when discussing pain or difficulty, she is practical and compassionate. Freud matches her with gentle, probing questions, allowing the conversation to move from style and color to deep questions of art, resilience, aging, and legacy. The episode stands as both a celebration of Zandra Rhodes’ unique vision and a clarion call to preserve the soulfulness of creative work against the tide of standardization and digital abstraction.

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End Quote:

“I hope I'm a little dream in print for you.”
—Zandra Rhodes ([48:30])

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For more: Visit www.fashionneurosis.com or follow @fashioneurosis_bellafreud.

Transcript

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[Sam Baker]

Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. Zondra Rhodes.

[Zandra Rhodes]

Hi there. I'm pleased to be here.

[Sam Baker]

Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?

[Zandra Rhodes]

I chose one of my favourite dresses that I did for a lovely Spanish company called Celia B. Which is just all my prints in different colours so I'd look very colourful on your couch today. And I have it with an Andrew Logan heart brooch and my usual Indian silver necklace and lots of Andrew Logan rings and a bracelet. But I won't clatter while I'm talking.

[Sam Baker]

What about these special plimsols that you're wearing with coloured flowers on? Did you make those as well?

[Zandra Rhodes]

During lockdown, I did lessons for older people and one was painting your sneakers so that they'd liven your life up. So that I did sort of one hour painting lessons. And these are the sneakers, but I've sort of worn them to death. They're looking a tiny bit tired.

[Sam Baker]

Oh, they're so nice. They're great. I love that you've been a famous fashion designer for almost your entire life and you described your mother as your greatest influence, setting you on your path by calling you Zandra, which also set you apart from your peers. And you said that she had a job doing pattern cutting for Worth in Paris, even though she wasn't professionally trained. And where did this confidence come from?

[Zandra Rhodes]

I think she was just this wonderful, exotic person that decided she wanted to do something and then went ahead. I mean, she'd probably had basic lessons and then she just think of it in sort of like the middle of the 30s, going to Paris and, and getting A job in that house of Worth. And then she'd say to the pattern colour, well, show me how you want it done first. Cause I want to do it the way you want it and not make any mistakes. So she was very clever in the way that she could involve people and she was like that with her teaching in the college that I went to in Rochester, Kent.

[Sam Baker]

I mean, it's so intrepid to do that. I mean, Worth was one of the biggest names in the fashion industry then. And I mean the level of expertise and to be able to just have this ability to absorb it and do that. I mean, so impressive. What great blood to be flowing in your veins.

[Zandra Rhodes]

I just think how brave it was to think of someone in the 30s going to France and getting a job and doing something like that. I mean, it didn't run in her family, you know, I just think. And she did the most wonderful fashion drawings and lovely watercolours and she's always doing things at home, so I know it must have. It was sort of like an influence that I took for granted, which is terrible really.

[Sam Baker]

It's good to take some things for granted because they feel closer like that way. And I suppose there's less kind of apprehension about going into it because you wrote that she wore green lizard platform sandals and had a Persian lamb coat and wore. And sprayed part of her hair silver. And I wondered why you found it easy to admire her radical style and that you were never embarrassed by it and because my mum dressed differently and I found it, I wasn't embarrassed, but I felt incredibly self conscious at being the focus of being different.

[Zandra Rhodes]

Well, funnily enough, when she'd come to school open days, I'd say, mummy, please don't wear too exotic because you look different from all the other mothers, you know, with these platform shoes and everything. But now I think what a wonderful example. She was always sort of wonderful. And the other thing about her was she taught dressmaking and people would really, you know, with kids that couldn't. That weren't very, very good at anything else, they could end up with a career whereas they were considered hopeless in academics. And my mother took care of that with so many children that I've met or grown ups who've said she meant so much to their lives.

[Sam Baker]

That's such a gift, isn't it? Incredible talent. Neither of my parents ever told me anything they wanted me to do and I.

[Zandra Rhodes]

So you made your own way?

[Sam Baker]

Yeah, I suppose that's one way of looking at it. I always longed to be told what to do. But of course, if anyone did, I reacted against it.

[Zandra Rhodes]

But.

[Sam Baker]

And did you have a piece of clothing you were obsessed with as a child?

[Zandra Rhodes]

Oh gosh, she used to make me quite wonderful things and she'd go to the market in Rochester and buy bits and pieces of fabric. So I had this wonderful turquoise sort of like tiered skirt with all fish on it. I mean they were probably ends of things that no one else would buy and she used to find them in the market and they were always very colorful. So I suppose that's why I became quite colourful.

[Sam Baker]

Did you have any kind of crushes on weird kind of very conventional things? I. I find that when you grow up with someone who looks different, like my sister, her ambition was to have a brown crimpling trouser suit and our mother wore these like gorgeous velvet caftans and things. But did you have any kind of desires for anything weirdly normal?

[Zandra Rhodes]

Well, I was just this weirdly boring sort of academic student during my school days. I didn't mind wearing school uniform because it was an all girls school. So it wasn't that we were trying to impress people. And I think I wore the same knotted tie for the whole time I was there. Slid up and down. It was a. What was it called now? Chatham Technical School for Girls. And it was in. It was at Fort Pitt, which was a sort of like right on the top of a hill and Florence Nightingale had used some of the. It had been used in the Crimean War, so it was probably very cold in winter. But you didn't notice then in those.

[Sam Baker]

Days because you also talked about a teacher, Barbara at art school, I think, who wore black Victorian dresses with ripped lace and she told you to draw all the time and she said you can't rely on talent, you have to work at it. And you said drawing helps you remember things more than a photograph. And do you find an idea embeds more if you're drawing it out?

[Zandra Rhodes]

Well, I still do drawing and I still find everything that I do. When we do collections I would draw out the initial bit before we scanned it because now other people help me scan it and put it into. Into proportion and everything. But I mean I always paint the whole thing out first of all. And I loved looking at things. I was always drawing flowers and trees and local churches even when I was at school and really enjoyed doing that.

[Sam Baker]

It's amazing to have that ability. It's actually quite rare among designers to draw those. A few great people like Yves Saint Laurent, John Galliano, you and I can't think who else does really great drawings, but it's such a Molly Goddard, actually.

[Zandra Rhodes]

Carl Lagerfeld and these things too.

[Sam Baker]

He drew really well, didn't he? Yeah, I wish I could. Vivienne Westwood used to do great drawings as well. It's such a wonderful thing to watch. And you started as a textile designer and became friends with Ozzie Clark, who. And I think he used some of your prints. And I used to know Ozzy, and he once said to me, I can make a pair of shoes, I can make a bra. And I wondered, were you influenced by him in any way, or was he just.

[Zandra Rhodes]

Right at the beginning of my career, he and Celia were great friends and we did together with Alex, who I was living with at that time. We did a trip to Rome and everything. But then that time I was really just a textile designer. But it was the fact that I couldn't sell my textiles because everyone said they were so extreme. And I kept thinking, but I know they could look all right on clothes. And I got another designer friend who had been a librarian and then went into fashion to show me how to make patterns. And then I put a collection together and took it to America, where they didn't know that I was a textile designer and took me at face value, being a dress designer.

[Sam Baker]

Because you made this very interesting comment, which is, ugliness accentuates beauty. And I wondered if you could give an example of that.

[Zandra Rhodes]

Oh, gosh, this sounds so intellectual now. And I don't remember being so intellectual. I mean, you can. You can do designs and you could do something that once was considered ugly and then by working at it, it becomes beautiful or it becomes the next theme or it becomes the next idea that leads to something. And you never know where the ideas are going to lead from. It's like a strange adventure into design land.

[Sam Baker]

I thought it was such a good observation because, I mean, I suppose there are certain things that I know are ugly that I really love and I feel they enhance my look. Like certain types of shoes, which are kind of un. You know, they're unelegant, but they give me an elegance that comes out in a different place. And I love that you said about ugliness can accentuate beauty.

[Zandra Rhodes]

Yeah, I mean, our ideas of beauty are always changing. So one time, although I can't imagine I'm in a bright colored frock at the moment, but I. And I can't imagine myself being in dull colours, but, I mean, I might go through a period like that. I'm not sure yet.

[Sam Baker]

And you got Your big break from Diana Vreeland, who had your dresses photographed for American Vogue. And you describe her assigning you a chauffeur when she discovered you were taking your dresses on the subway and in a just a normal cab, she said, here's your chauffeur. And that person drove you around New York for the rest of your visit.

[Zandra Rhodes]

I know. It was like a fairy tale without having one's feet on the ground.

[Sam Baker]

Did she ever wear any of your dresses? Because she loved color as well, didn't she?

[Zandra Rhodes]

She was always so wonderfully enthusiastic. She was one of those people that you walked into the room and her character was so overwhelming that you forgot everything else and everything else disappeared and you were just overwhelmed by her amazing character. The fact that she raved about what I brought and said it was a very new image. And she immediately got it photographed and phoned up the top boutique in New York and said, you've got to take these clothes. And then top society ladies that she said should be wearing my things. I mean, when I look back, back, it's like a living fairy tale that I don't believe but happened.

[Sam Baker]

It's so different now, isn't it? I mean, none of those things happen. There's no sort of personal endorsement really from anything or the enthusiasm and the support for an up and coming designer. The way she got behind you and it was so exciting to read about in your. Your brilliant memoir, Iconic, which I enjoyed so much.

[Zandra Rhodes]

Oh, good.

[Sam Baker]

It was fantastic. And you describe yourself as an introvert, but you dress like people would imagine an extrovert would dress. And I wondered when you started dying your hair and how people responded to you.

[Zandra Rhodes]

At first, soon after the very taking my clothes to America, I then started to work with Leonard the hairdresser, and at the time, Videl Sassoon brought out green colored wigs. And I wanted to wear a wig, but it pinched my head, you know. So I then went, funnily enough, I went to Vidal Sassoon. They didn't know me, you know, I was very small fry and at time and asked my hair to be bleached and it was dark brown. And they said, oh, we won't touch it. And then I went to Leonard and that started a friendship that lasted, oh, years through all my shows and all the experiments of doing wonderful colored hair with Daniel coloring my hair and John Frieda working on my shows. So we did lots of exotic experiments.

[Sam Baker]

Yeah. And you talk a lot about Leonard in your book and I love the story that he'd seen this Film called Coiffeur Pour Dame, about a man who'd been a sheep shearer and then got into the hair business and become the darling of Paris, which I thought was just. I love the idea that he'd watched that film and that had been his kind of catalyst for becoming such a genius. And all the brilliant people who came, Trevor Sorby and John Frieda and Daniel.

[Zandra Rhodes]

Galvin, I know they all worked on my shows, right from the Roundhouse show, that often someone's put up on the tv, you can see it sometimes. And I used. The Warhol girls all flew over for me. Like, I had Donna and then I had Pat Cleveland and all these amazing, amazing girls who did my. My first show that I did at the Roundhouse. And Michael Chow worked up with me on the poster, and I had Tina Chow, who I introduced him to. So it was a fantastic period of my past.

[Sam Baker]

God, it must have been amazing. I mean, it's like. I mean, just hearing you describe that is like a dream, a fashion dream come true, with so much kind of wild energy and so chic and glamorous and everything. And because you also started shaving your eyebrows, which is so radical and has been. You talk about not wanting to be anonymous, and do you have a horror of being anonymous because you're a discreet person as well, and an introvert. And I love this. This contrast that you're very visible and noticeable.

[Zandra Rhodes]

I always believe. I mean, what I design, I always imagine myself wearing. You know, I feel as a designer, I mean, I've met designers before who say, oh, I don't wear my clothes. But then you think, well, what are you selling? I'm selling Zander Rhodes dream and hoping other people would like to be part of that dream. Really? I suppose I love the fact that you can take a plain textile and then you can print it or do all sorts of things to it, and the print will take over and make it another sort of experience.

[Sam Baker]

And do you find that by wearing your clothes? Because I agree, if I didn't wear my clothes, I'd feel like, well, there's no point being a designer, because somehow putting them on, even if it's too late to do things, to adjust them, I know what to do next. And I know I have to feel a visceral connection to them. And do you find that when you're wearing.

[Zandra Rhodes]

Well, as a designer, if you wear them, you suddenly find out that the neckline's too low or the shoulders don't stay in position, and you think, well, that's got to be corrected. You know, there's nothing better than wearing it yourself and thinking, well, my God, it's not going to be, you know, you find out what's wrong with it soon.

[Sam Baker]

Yeah, I know.

[Zandra Rhodes]

You know, so you're really selling something that if you wear it, then, you know, you believe in it.

[Sam Baker]

Yeah. No, I completely agree.

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[Zandra Rhodes]

It's not clocking to you that I'm standing on Moonbeam. You're ready with me to try the new golden Labube Dubai Chocolate Matcha latte, Moonbeam ice cream, Boba crumble cookie, and.

[Sam Baker]

My weekly trip to Japan.

[Today Explained Host]

And for anyone who missed it, we're gonna explain on the show. Join us over at Today Explained.

[Preet Bharara]

How does everyone know what everyone knows? It's a state sometimes called pluralistic ignorance or a spiral of silence where everyone mistakenly thinks that everyone else believes something and no one actually believes it. I'm Preet Bharara, and this week cognitive psychologist Steven Pinker joins me on my podcast Stay Tuned with Preet to discuss his latest book. It's called When Everyone Knows that Everyone Knows. We discuss what common knowledge can teach us about collective behavior. The episode is out now. Search and follow Stay Tuned with Preet wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sam Baker]

And you were friends with the magnificent divine, who you called divvy and who John Waters described as looking like a cross between Godzilla and Elizabeth Taylor. Amazing. And he'd come and stay with you and you said he dressed your Christmas tree and was he interested in your work as well?

[Zandra Rhodes]

Oh, if I put any caftans near him, he'd be in them instantly. But he was just a wonderful, wonderful, warm, fabulous person. I mean, he Came one Christmas and he'd sit in a chair, because he'd be sitting in a big chair eating chocolates and he'd have a wand and he'd say. He'd be telling us, oh, the tree needs more Christmas tree balls up there. We'd be the ones running about, putting the balls in position. And then years later, I'd see someone like. I tried to think of the photographer in la, Greg Gorman. He said, oh, I came to your house years ago for tea with David Bowie. And I go, well, I wasn't there. I'd leave for work. I'd leave for work at 7:30 in the morning. I didn't know what was going on. And I hear there were wonderful tea parties that people would go to in your house. Divvy liked tea parties.

[Sam Baker]

And I liked your description of him running up a huge tab in Fortnum and Masons and then being barred for not paying his bill.

[Zandra Rhodes]

He had desires far beyond his pocket that he could afford, so that they banned him from various places. And a lot of my friends all used to meet him, whether it was Fortnum's ice cream parlor or the chocolate division at Harrods. He went to all those places.

[Sam Baker]

Wow. Such a cool thing to have. And he made a special thing that you still put on your Christmas tree. A goat, I think you said.

[Zandra Rhodes]

Oh, he. He was doing appearances in Sweden and he bought one of the Christmas animals that they make out of straw. I think it has a special name, but it always comes out at Christmas and reminds me of him, which is fabulous.

[Sam Baker]

So adorable. And you've also been friends with the performance artist and jeweler Andrew Logan for years. A long time, yes. And you're wearing his amazing creations today. And he founded the alternative Miss World, I think, in 1972.

[Zandra Rhodes]

That's right, yes. I actually, funnily enough, I didn't know him then. It was through the painter Dougie Fields that I went to that actual show and that was really the beginning of our friendship. And then after that, I've always made the women's half of his. He comes in as a half and half person, so he's a man on one side and a woman on the other side. And I make the woman's side of the dresses for all the different ones that he's done.

[Sam Baker]

Oh, that's amazing. I didn't know that because I went to. I definitely went to one of them when I was a teenager. And I always remember there was that woman, Luciana Martinez, who would wear.

[Zandra Rhodes]

She'd be his special secretary.

[Sam Baker]

Oh, Right.

[Zandra Rhodes]

And she'd be on the stage with him and then, I mean, it's become a complete cult. And the gold one was absolutely marvelous. And that was a absolute dream of gold pleating that I made. And, you know, he just. And it's that people go in for it and they can be men, women or machines. And one year a machine won it and then Russians love all come over and love dressing up and looking amazing. So it's a performance like nothing else.

[Sam Baker]

And what kind of machine won it?

[Zandra Rhodes]

I'm trying to remember the name of the. He was an artist who lived in somewhere like Norfolk and he made a machine that came on and moved around as a person. Well, a semi person. It didn't pretend to be a person, but that won that year.

[Sam Baker]

So. Fabulous. I always remember Luciana Martinez wore a dress which showed one of her boobs and she had this perfect breast which was completely still and never moved. And she went around a bit like, you know, totally composed with this bare breast. And somehow or other it was so matter of fact that you just accepted it. Do you remember that?

[Zandra Rhodes]

Definitely, definitely. And she was his secretary on the stage. It was quite wonderful.

[Sam Baker]

Yeah. And you said, if you stick at fashion long enough, you'll fall out of fashion and you'll suddenly coincide with it again and be popular. And you've done so many things outside of fashion, including creating the textile and Fashion and Textile Museum, which you bought the building and invented this forum for people to see things. And do you thrive on the spirit and soul of fashion being visible to people?

[Zandra Rhodes]

Well, I believe fashion is an art form as much as being a painter or being an industrial designer. They're art forms of things we create. And the one thing mustn't destroy itself in the world at the moment are the wonderful art colleges that are in the uk. And, you know, I mean, I went to the Royal College of Art and I owe my career to. To my training there. And our art colleges were the best in the world. And I do hope that we keep people coming to them.

[Sam Baker]

They seem like they're producing amazing talents. And many of the houses in Europe are, you know, helmed by our art students from Royal College of Fashion and Saint Martins. Saint Martins. And we still. We may not have industry, but we still have flair, which is worth everything, isn't it?

[Zandra Rhodes]

Well, we've just got to keep that. Keep that blossoming and have that. I mean, I do think the UK breed individuals. You know, you've got to think of Alexander McQueen, you know, or Vivian. They're wonderful. Individuals that came out of the. Well, the vague art school system in this country.

[Sam Baker]

Maybe sometimes I thought the lack of industry produced more individualistic geniuses for that very reason, because there was so little kind of industrial support that people become incredibly resourceful. And, you know, you make all your prints and have a print studio and literally you are hands on. Do you think that's.

[Zandra Rhodes]

I think there is that aspect. I do worry now that with the division from Europe, it's closed many doors for our youth to go forward into different things. You know, it was. I like the idea of the wonderful art colleges training people and then they go into Europe or into the States and then can come back. Do you know? And they're going forward all the time.

[Sam Baker]

It's hard times at the moment, isn't it? I think for all the art kind of, you know, art and fashion.

[Zandra Rhodes]

I feel very worried that our schools aren't teaching art enough. They're going towards other subjects where you need the art and the other things, including calling something like cookery in art, where they learn to use their hands. They're not just on a computer and so terrible that they only with phones, they've got to be able to express themselves. You know, even someone like David Hockney, who's just had this wonderful exhibition in Paris, I know he uses computers, but his artwork originally only came because he learned to use his hands and where they took him in his life.

[Sam Baker]

Yeah. I think there's something to do with the neural pathways that if you don't do something, if an idea travels down your arm and into your hands and you manifest it physically, you learn how to make something is like you described about your teacher saying you have to draw all the time that makes that happen. And if you don't learn that, it's like you break something in your system that there's no recognition of, that an idea actually comes not from a screen, but from your bloodstream almost.

[Zandra Rhodes]

I know it might be a shortcut to turn to something like computers, but I think you have to learn the use of your hands and everything like that and what your eyes see, or it will go and. And we're passed into nothingness.

[Sam Baker]

Yeah, it's true. And to describe cooking as an art too, it's a really good way of linking everything because it is in the end to do with being a maker. And I find that fashion. I feel like fashion is my kitchen. It's. If I can get something on a body, I can mess around with it a bit and make it work, but if it's On a screen. I don't know what to do, you know, it's just too distant from my instinct.

[Zandra Rhodes]

I do worry that we're going into a plane, but maybe that's my age and everything, because, I mean, I think there's nothing more exciting than actually playing with real fabric and designing a textile print. I used to do them big prints and put them on paper and then stand in front of the mirror and cut the hole for my arms and what it looked like and imagine would I wear it, which has always been my, you know, my reason for that. If I wouldn't wear it, then what am I selling?

[Sam Baker]

Yes. No, I agree. Because someone has to wear it. And if you wear it, you can enroll people. If they're kind of a bit nervous of the color or whatever, then there you are embodying that. And it's so. It's such a great advert and it's so infectious. I mean, I tend towards dark clothes. I wore a shirt with some yellow stars on to be spiritually aligned to you. I mean, I'm like a black cloud in the distance. But it is, you know, what you're talking about from experience and that I think that means a lot to people who are learning, even if they don't want to be emulate, that they understand what you mean when you're talking from actual experience. And you've never been married, but you've had big love affairs with some powerful men and you never seem intimidated by men. And including your father, when he chastised you when you were a child, you responded something like, well, Mommy pays for it, so what's the problem?

[Zandra Rhodes]

That must have been awful for my father, I think, when I look back, and it was only really on writing the book together with Ella Alexander, who got all these stories out of me, which I'd hidden away and never talked about before, and thought about how awful it must have been, you know, because.

[Sam Baker]

It was so interesting what you said about your father, that he had this incredibly traumatic childhood and that you didn't know about it until later, and it made you have some sort of understanding of what he was like.

[Zandra Rhodes]

It was amazing because really it was Ella talking to my sister's granddaughter who'd been doing ancestry and all those things, finding out the real truth about the fact that his father had gone out to war or wherever, and then the lodger, his mother had an affair with the lodger, and then she had an affair with another lodger and then was brutally murdered. And it was in all the newspapers. And I think my Father suffered from that for the whole of his life. And of course, Chatham was a small town then.

[Sam Baker]

Yeah, yeah. Did you get closer to him eventually, or. I mean, your mother sounded so like she had sort of enough nurture for a thousand people. She was so inspiring.

[Zandra Rhodes]

I think, really, my mother was the inspiring one.

[Sam Baker]

Yeah.

[Zandra Rhodes]

And my father really didn't comment at all. You know, and to people, maybe to the younger generation, they've never watched Elf Garnet in those TV comedies, but he was like Elf Garnet this very sort of. And we didn't have people home because I wouldn't have wanted people to meet him. And yet my sister, who then had grandchildren, he softened and was much different. But my mother had then died and he married another lady who thought he was wonderful. And it brought out different bits of his character.

[Sam Baker]

God, that's so interesting. And did you get closer to him when he softened up?

[Zandra Rhodes]

I never really got. He came with his. My mother died and then he was alone for about two or three years and then went to ballroom dancing classes and met a very nice lady. And they got married and they lived together and they come. I'd invite them to my dress shows. But apart from that, I hardly ever. I didn't go down to Chatham, where I came from originally.

[Sam Baker]

Yeah, it was very moving, that whole story. But also a great. Great to be a woman in the fashion world. Not afraid of men. Because there are a lot of men who are very keen to take the credit, perhaps, or just minimize one a bit. And it doesn't sound like you had those experiences.

[Zandra Rhodes]

Gosh, I don't know. This is getting very deep.

[Sam Baker]

I suppose. I. It's just when you described that. I thought of the times where I've just acquiesced to suggestions from, you know, businessmen and thought, why am I going along with this? It just doesn't add up. But I didn't have that confidence. But it seems like you did have this confidence and it made you extremely successful.

[Zandra Rhodes]

I'm trying to. I mean, I'd say that my relationships, in the main, usually collapsed because I was a workaholic. And the work took the forefront to the relationship. Except when I then finally met the ultimate workaholic who didn't notice that I was. Because he was always working. It was perfect.

[Sam Baker]

I know it's great when someone comes along and just. Is your compliment and you don't have to scale back or you can just.

[Zandra Rhodes]

I mean, I think that seems to be very difficult for a lot of women because they usually have to bow down to what the man wants. Whereas, you know, it's good if it's fairly equal and they've got their own work that they're getting on with and you've got your own work.

[Sam Baker]

How do you feel about the way men dress? If you fancy someone and don't like something they're wearing, does it kill your attraction?

[Zandra Rhodes]

Oh, gosh, that's a difficult one. I mean, if they were dressed so extraordinarily, I suppose one might. I don't think it ever cropped up in any of my relationships.

[Sam Baker]

Because when you talked about your first relationship, you both dressed up to the nines and I suppose was that quite a playful kind of collaborative thing or. But you've never. No one has ever worn something where you've just thought, God, do I have to think again about this person?

[Zandra Rhodes]

I don't think so. I'm trying to think very hard. I mean, with my first sort of. Alex, who I lived with, first of all, you know, was a definite character in his own is his own right. I didn't really get involved in their wardrobe.

[Sam Baker]

I don't think that's very magnanimous of you. I love correcting people. Men.

[Zandra Rhodes]

No, I don't think. Gosh, no, I don't. I don't mean I go around blind. I mean, I suppose they. They looked alright. Their character was something probably I found more intriguing. Have to think about that one.

[Sam Baker]

I think it's a testament to your generous nature that it didn't even cross your mind. And you've talked with a lot of fondness about receiving a damehood from the late Queen Elizabeth ii. And as you said before, it's hard to stay visible in the fashion world. And is this feeling truly acknowledged, having received this? It's not an award. What's it called? An honour.

[Zandra Rhodes]

An honor.

[Sam Baker]

Yeah.

[Zandra Rhodes]

It's a great honor that I received the damehood and it was wonderful going to Buckingham palace to receive it and sort of line up there and feel that my work was appreciated. And I think. I think it's quite wonderful. I mean, I've always been a royalist, so it was great going to Buckingham palace to receive it. And for my damehood, I had a wonderful little tiny hat with a rhinestone egg on the top. And my sister, who looks like a wonderful county lady in her sort of like her straw hat, and when I came out, the lady next to my sister nudged her and said, would you wear something like that? And my sister said, no, but it's my sister. And she said, oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. My sister Said, people always say that, but don't worry.

[Sam Baker]

That's so nice. Gosh. And did you make something for Princess Diana?

[Zandra Rhodes]

I made about five outfits for Princess Diana. She came into my. First of all, she came into my shop which was in Grafton street, which is just off of Bond street, and was very, very grand. I wasn't there because I used to be working at the factory. And she came by with her friend and they came into the shop and they were all plainclothes policemen standing around trying to look invisible. And then later she came into my shop and ordered a tried on an off shoulder black dress that had all little pink pearls hanging from it. And I was then commissioned to make it in in pink, which was the dress she wore when she announced she was pregnant in Japan. And it was quite wonderful doing dresses for her.

[Sam Baker]

She loved to wear. I mean, she wore clothes so well and she had such a great figure and it seemed like it really, you know, the whole thing of, as a designer, you literally have someone's back and you took care of her and protected her through these beautiful dresses that you made for her. Did it feel a bit like that?

[Zandra Rhodes]

It felt like a great honor. And seeing the dresses, because there's nothing. As a designer, it's wonderful seeing your dresses actually being worn by someone and realizing people like them and wear them. Do you know what I mean?

[Sam Baker]

Yeah.

[Zandra Rhodes]

And. And then when she did that amazing sale in America, I went to that because there were four of mine in that sale. And it was like the most amazing experience where the whole world's eyes were on these dresses and they were fetching the most astronomical amazing prices. Like the whole room stopped breathing. It was just the most incredible experience.

[Sam Baker]

Wow. So you didn't get to buy them back?

[Zandra Rhodes]

Oh, I wouldn't have been able to afford them.

[Sam Baker]

God, what a wonderful experience must have been. And you're a very private person. But at the end of your memoir, you reveal that you've been diagnosed with cancer. And you're so matter of fact and unsentimental about this too. And you said, I refuse to wallow in self pity. I've had a fabulous life. And I wondered, how do you pace yourself now as you're clear that there's a lot you still want to do and you're 83. Is that really possible?

[Zandra Rhodes]

I'm 85.

[Sam Baker]

Oh my God, Sandra, you're just.

[Zandra Rhodes]

The dyed hair disguises is a bit of a disguise.

[Sam Baker]

You're just beautiful and your skin is so beautiful.

[Zandra Rhodes]

I, I forgot what the question was because you paid me Compliments.

[Sam Baker]

Well, I've been waiting this whole time to shower you with compliments. But how do you pace yourself knowing you've got so much you still want to do? You've had this diagnosis. How do you kind of adjust? Or do you not?

[Zandra Rhodes]

Well, what happened, first of all was Andrew used to do just before lockdown and everything was about to close. Andrew, who did yoga classes, insisted that I try. He said, xander, you never do a yoga class. Do it. And I breathed deeply when he said, breathe deeply. And my stomach was full and I hadn't eaten, so I thought, this is very funny. And for some reason, I then contacted my doctor and got myself X rayed and found out that. And then there was the diagnosis. They said, you've got a growth in your. By the side of your liver and you probably got six months. What I don't understand is it made me feel determined that I had to put my house in order. I had to make sure I got a will, I had to make sure everything was all in order. And it was then that I formed the Zanderose foundation and found out that I had squirreled away over 6,000 of my dresses, because, unlike my lovely friend David Sassoon, I never sold the ones I liked best. I put them in a cupboard and thought, well, I might run out of ideas. I'm going to keep it. So I'd found I had 6,000 dresses that had to be cataloged and go into the Zander Rose Foundation. And gradually we'd been finding out what the Metropolitan Museum in New York wanted. In Australia, I'd done collections that were based on the prints that I'd done when I'd been across Australia and drawn Uralu. And so I. I've been making sure that the different museums of the towns that influenced the prints that I did have now got some of the dresses in each of the museums. So it's been a wonderful adventure for me and I've had lots of work, so I can't complain.

[Sam Baker]

Well, Sandra, you're. You're a total inspiration and you just make life worth living. Just everything you create and how you've managed to also write a book and you do so much, and I'm definitely continuing to take a leaf out of your book.

[Zandra Rhodes]

Well, you founded this wonderful program, apart from the fact that you do clothes as well.

[Sam Baker]

Well, thank you so much for being on fashion neurosis, Cassandra. It's been so lovely to have you here. A ray of colour on our. On the white couch.

[Zandra Rhodes]

Oh, thank you. I hope I'm a little dream in print for you.

[Sam Baker]

You are. You are. That's exactly it. Thank you.

[Zandra Rhodes]

Thank you, Sam.