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- [00:09]
A
Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. FKA Twigs.
- [00:19]
B
Hi.
- [00:21]
A
Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?
- [00:26]
B
I'm kind of in a week's break from coming back from tour. I'm sorting out my wardrobe at the moment, and so I've actually taken all my clothes out of my wardrobe. So it was quite funny getting dressed for this because I don't have a lot at home, but I did just have dry cleaned the Paolo Carzana dress that I wore at the British Fashion Awards last December on the red carpet. And this GOA hoodie that I got off Depop last week. And tracksuit bottoms from Tor and some archive Rick Owen boots that my boyfriend got for me for Christmas. And I decided to wear a red carpet dress, but sort of repurposed because I think it speaks a lot to the way I see fashion and dressing myself and the idea of morphing. And one day something can be on the red carpet, and the next day it can be with a tracksuit and more relaxed or playful. I don't really love fashion in terms of. I wouldn't consider myself somebody that keeps up to date with the latest trends or new designers and collections and these things, but I love the creativity and the unearthing of oneself that clothes can bring. So, yeah, I decided to repurpose this red carpet look.
- [02:06]
A
Unearthing oneself is a really good description of what fashion can do. I've never heard anyone say that, but that's some of its power when you know how to use it in. In the way you've described. And it's nice the way you have these comfort things and these kind of glamour things as well. I think it's great to. To put them all together with so much deftness. One of my favorite words.
- [02:47]
B
Yeah, looks a kind of an archive, I guess, of like who you were. It's like a personality. You can bring things forward or leave things behind.
- [02:56]
A
Yeah, that's. Yeah, it's so true. And colors do that some. In fact, Riz Ahmed was talking about, when he wears certain colors, he can be slightly in the background because they do the work for him. And other colors, he has to step up and work on their behalf. And I thought that was. That was a useful thing to know about your own wardrobe.
- [03:25]
B
Support for the show comes from Shopify. Every worthwhile journey starts with a handful of what ifs, but one day you'll be able to look back and realize that all those what ifs were small steps towards turning your dream into a thriving business. Shopify can help you get there. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US join them and turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com VoxBusiness go to shopify.com VoxBusiness that's shopify.com VoxBusiness. What's up y'? All? I'm Skylar Diggins, seven time WNBA All Star, Olympic gold medalist and mom. And I'm Cassidy Hubbard, host and reporter
- [04:13]
A
for nearly 20 years covering the biggest
- [04:15]
B
names and stories in sports and mom. And this is and mom a community for athletes, game changers and moms of all kinds of dropping. May 14th tap in with us and
- [04:28]
A
you're an award winning singer, songwriter, dancer, actor and producer. And you were described in one of the many accolades I've read about you as an Olympian of pop performance, an artist who wields her unbelievable physical prowess to illustrate every tricky subtlety of her music. And your mother was a dancer and a gymnast and I wondered, was it her who instilled your belief in how amazing a body can be?
- [05:03]
B
Yes, in part. My mum actually didn't really want me to dance when I was younger.
- [05:08]
A
Really?
- [05:08]
B
She always said that dancing broke her heart and she didn't want me to feel that heartbreak that she had one. I think she had an injury and then she didn't pursue it exactly in the way she wanted to. So when I was a little girl, she didn't want me to dance. And then when I was about eight, I went to the doctors and the doctor said I had flat feet and something that would be good for it would be ballet. And as soon as I heard him say that, I'd be like, well, I have to go, the doctor said. So from then on, she was incredibly supportive and worked with me a lot. Not really just on dance moves, but also about authentic authenticity and performance. And we would play a lot together and make up dances and perform them and she'd make me costumes and she really made my childhood incredibly magical in that sense. But then I think there's another side to my physicality that I'm still kind of figuring out as an adult. But it's based a lot more, I think, in genetics and in drive, in primal instinct. I think in some ways being a warrior, I don't really, at least in this stage of my life, feel physical fatigue in a normal way. My body's really amazing. It can kind of just keep going not to say I don't feel sore or I don't feel tired sometimes, but I just have this drive and it just keeps me going. I'm really grateful.
- [07:11]
A
Yeah. It's interesting, your mother saying that thing about the heartbreak, because I've heard dancers say that they experience two deaths and one is when they have to give up dance because their body can't accommodate. They have an injury or they just can't do the things they did. And you can understand why she didn't want you to experience this sort of tragedy so early on. But anyway, you don't seem to. I just can't imagine that you would ever not be able to do what you wanted because your drive is so kind of apparent in everything you do and it's so contagious. Like listening to your music and watching you perform. It's you, you appeal to other people. That's my experience, I think. Yeah. God, there's more, there's more to be had. And I like the way I'm seeing this and that's nice. It's very exciting and. Cause your mother was a fashion designer and your father worked in fashion too. And I think they, they owned a shop together. And I wondered what was the first piece of clothing you became fixated on as a child?
- [08:37]
B
I don't remember having a piece of clothing that I was fixated on, but I remember a vibe that I did like and a vibe that I didn't like, which is actually very similar to how I am now. I think I've always had an unusual relationship to my femininity, as in I am aesthetically and within my mannerisms, very effeminate, but in my spirit I'm not at all. So I remember as a child not liking it when my mum dressed me like too girly or too princessy or certain colors. I loved neutral tones and I loved linen a lot as a child. I had these like amazing linen boots that I wore. It was like a three piece linen set, linen shorts, a linen waistcoat. Like as we know, it's like the 90s. So like a baggy kind of T shirt with a waistcoat on top with socks, like scrunchy socks pulled up and then. And then these linen shoes. And I remember not really liking when anything was too floral or princessy. Like I always wanted it to kind of be a bit cool and tough and I wanted to be seen as a girl, but I wanted to be able to do the things that the boys could do because I lived in between. Like I lived next door to two brothers that were like very boisterous growing up and they were always climbing trees and rollerblading and skating and so I always wanted to be able to, I think, like, be in my girlhood whilst also being able to go on my rollerblades up the road and not feeling, you know, prohibited in any way. But yeah, I mean, my mum like always, I think like dressed me really well when I was a kid and we had a lot of fun, but I also just used to dress up as a cat or.
- [10:48]
A
Really?
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B
Yeah, I mean, whatever I wanted really. It was never really like the princess or superhero thing, but I was always wanted to be an animal or a creature or, you know, making something and playing as that thing for the day was something that was welcomed in my childhood.
- [11:09]
A
That's so nice.
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B
Yeah, it was good because your mother
- [11:13]
A
sounds absolutely amazing and she did practice tests with you to help you get your scholarship into a private school. And I wondered whether you felt pressurized by that or whether you like her doing it because she recognized your, your intelligence and your brilliance. And I mean you, you've got six A levels. I've never heard of anyone with six A levels.
- [11:45]
B
I mean, I think maybe both.
- [11:52]
A
Mm.
- [11:55]
B
Maybe it was both. It's interesting. Like my family are from like working class Birmingham. I have like an unusual family setup. Like I have like my mom, I have my biological dad and I have my stepdad and they're all from Birmingham. I didn't meet my biological dad until I was in my late teens, early 20s, but all of them from working across Birmingham. My stepdad is Bajan, my biological dad is Jamaican, my mum is English with a bit of Spanish. And yeah, I think that they all knew what it was to have to work really hard and that sentiment was really put into me. All of them are like very special in their own individual ways. And I think I grew up knowing that I could get what I wanted out of this life, but I was going to have to work really hard because I wasn't going to have any shortcuts. I'm also not from London. You know, I grew up in Gloucestershire and so it's different when you're kind of like not from London and you want to. Especially like if you want to do the arts, it feels so far away. It feels even further than, than for most people. So I think both. I think my mum did put me under pressure when I was a kid, but also I thrive under pressure.
- [13:28]
A
Yeah.
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B
So it's, it's kind of a double edged sword, I guess. And she knew that I Could achieve things and she encouraged me to do those things. But if I didn't ever feel like I was doing something I didn't want to do, I always felt like I wanted to. But I think sometimes it was difficult. And as a child there are certain complexities that you don't understand why it's difficult. But obviously now I'm older, you know, I grew up and I've spoken about this so many times at this point, but I grew up in a very white area. I was the only. Yeah, that's the only. Like there was one other mixed race girl that I ever knew in my area and then there was one mixed race boy. He was like my English teacher's son that I knew of. But otherwise like that, that was really it in terms of, I guess, like kids. So now I know that I was feeling it was difficult because of other, I guess, like situation social and like economical reasons. As a child. You don't understand, you know, you're just like, why is this different for me?
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A
Yeah.
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B
Controversially, I do believe in encouraging children to do a lot of clubs and stay really active and be competitive and follow your dreams and, you know, be competitive with yourself more than anyone else. You know, I know that there's different ways of parenting, but at least on me it worked to be given a very focused drive and goal. Maybe, you know, that's just my personality. Maybe.
- [15:21]
A
Yeah. I think the fashion at the moment is less of a that apparently. But I suppose it shows people someone's interested in you. And I think that's a very encouraging thing as a child, Even if it does require a kind of application to discipline. I find that is the most useful thing I've ever learned in my life. And I learned about it from watching rather than having that kind of focus of interest. So I can. I relate to what you're saying.
- [16:03]
B
And yeah, making a child feel like they matter. Yeah. Yeah, it's the best thing. Yeah. Like spotting a talent. Yeah, yeah, I agree. All in anyone. I always think that. I always think, okay, there could be somebody that is the best opera singer in the whole world. And they don't know because that one time they sang in the tea in the kitchen, nobody said it was beautiful.
- [16:24]
A
Yeah.
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B
And I think that's the thing that my mom and my stepdad did really well is they spotted very specific and unique things in me. You're good at that. Keep doing it. Or you have a natural gift in that. And it's kind of how I work. Because, you know, at this point I, I feel Like FK Twigs. It's almost like a collective, you know, it's not just me. It truly takes a village. And I think that's one of the things that me and my creative family all encourage in each other is to be great at the thing that you're good at and then be curious about other crafts and other ways of expressing. I mean, my dancers in particular on tour, like the so incredible and they really skill swap and train in different things. And it's amazing to see contemporary dancers go on the pole and dancers that are self taught suddenly really blossom in their technical training and move in ways that they weren't at the beginning of the tour. And I always think that we're all kind of. We're all like superheroes. You just need to like figure out what your special talent is. Like X Men.
- [17:44]
A
Yeah. Well, you said something like application plus something else equals excellence.
- [17:54]
B
Or I think opportunity. No, preparation plus opportunity equals success. I live my whole life like that.
- [18:00]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's so important, I think, you know, some of reality tv, it felt like if you sit on the sofa long enough and watch these people, you'll suddenly be tv. But there was no, there wasn't much you kind of explanation of how the making of something and the physical application, whatever it is, whether it's writing or dancing, you know, that is what makes your whole being kind of start pursuing your idea. That sounds great. It must be fun being in your. In your tour band.
- [18:40]
B
Yeah, it is fun. I think it's just like rituals, isn't it? I feel like as humans we do well with practice.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Otherwise, you know, one can be just like two in your head, whereas it's really nice. I mean, love is practice, I think.
- [18:54]
A
Yeah.
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B
Like love is just a practice. If, if you ever broke up with a partner, it's not because you didn't love each other, it's just because you didn't practice enough.
- [19:03]
A
Yeah, you're totally spot on. I mean, it's so easy to notice where you resist. Especially with love. I find rather than go forward and there's so many. I'm practicing that now, so.
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B
Yeah, humans do good with practice.
- [19:28]
A
Yeah.
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B
That's why it's good to have a skill, like to use your hands or your imagination to. I mean, even sometimes, you know, to make the perfect cup of tea. Yeah, but like a delicate tea, like a green tea or something where you need to like make sure the water's the right temperature and then brew it for the perfect amount of time and have the ideal type of cup with the perfect material to taste it the way that it's supposed to be. These things take a lot of time and effort, actually.
- [20:04]
A
Also, they're great. Kind of like. My father never really told me anything about how to live my life, and I just watched how he lived his. But he did teach me how to make a good lapsang souchong. And it was very much to do with, you know, if the water wasn't literally boiling as it came out of the kettle into the pot, it. He'd say, no, no, no, it has to be boiling. And he wasn't a fussy person. He just liked to have good things, you know, And I loved that. It made me feel good at something and useful and also planted that thing of. There is something about techniques. Is your kind of architecture that you can build from.
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B
Yeah. I love technique because then you can just regard it.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You can only disregard it once you've got it.
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A
Yeah, completely.
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B
I love that. That's what I love about dance. And I love that about singing, too, that once you can sing the notes, you can choose not to sing them. And that's so fun. Like, I love being able to know I can hit a note and then actively not hit it.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Yeah. It's. It's. That's when I feel happiest when I'm performing, actually.
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A
When you're doing that particular.
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B
Yeah, when I know something so well and I'm so practiced at something that I can choose not to do it. And it can be better in that moment for making those small decisions.
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A
Must be so exciting.
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B
It's really exciting
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A
because you cited Polystyrene from X Ray Specs as a style icon. And when I was a teenager, I worked in seditionaries, and she used to come in and hang out, and she was such a. She was such a nice person and such a. And I saw her play, and she was amazing, and I think she was.
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B
What was she like?
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A
She was. She was a very. You know, it's funny, these people who were these young kids being, you know, recognized now by people like you. And she was. She was very sympathetic and likable and, you know, she was dressed in this slightly messy way and wore these turbans and stuff. And she was funny, and there was something heartbreaking in there as well that made her so sort of lovable. And she was. She was great. I mean, we were all teenagers then, so you're more kind of cavalier about everything. But I love her so much. What were you drawn to about. What are you drawn to about her? Because I think when I read that, that you. And I thought, God, she would have loved that would have meant so much. She was a mod. You know, she was a. She had a shyness about her as well.
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B
Yeah, I think that's what I love. It's like she's kind of shy, but she's, like, really powerful. And it's everything about her she used to her advantage, so even her braces, like, she used that to her advantage. And, like, the way she would sit, sing and speak. And I loved her physicality. Like, I loved her body. Like, she was just really, like, beautiful and curvy. And she would, like, wear these, like, really cool, brightly colored outfits. And she has these really big eyes and. And she was really sympathetic. I also loved the way that she really embraced her culture because I think she was. She was half Somalian, maybe. And it's like she. Like, half of her was like, this punk culture, and then half of her. I still feel like she really embraced her heritage.
- [24:07]
A
Yeah.
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B
And I think, you know, being like, a woman of color and being alternative as well, because I don't really feel like, you know, it's like, I guess queer in, like, the original sense of the world. The word in terms of, like, living your life in a non. Like, I guess, I don't know, not a normal way, whatever that even means, doesn't mean anything. But having a pull towards things that are more curious and creative and a different way of living your life and then coming from a culture and living and looking a certain way can. Can be a balance, you know? Yeah. I think anyone that probably is of color and also is involved creatively or just in a curious way in alternative culture can probably relate to that.
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A
Yeah.
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B
I feel like she. She just. She just absolutely smashed it at a time when there weren't many examples of women in punk bands that were like, even a woman that's in a punk band that's a lead singer that is of color and, you know, very political as well. I feel like she did a lot for women and she did a lot for me growing up. I mean, I always talk about her. Really?
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A
Yeah.
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B
Like, I really am so inspired and enamored by her.
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A
Yeah, she had.
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B
So cool. You met her. I'm shook.
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A
I know. I suddenly, when I saw that, I thought, God, yeah, I can still picture her, you know, sort of. I can't remember whether she smoked. I'm sure she did. I mean, we all just picturing her kind of slightly hunched over in the shop and just talking. And she just had a Lot of courage.
- [26:03]
B
And
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A
we were really caught up in. In her atmosphere and feel. Feeling protective towards her as well. Because when you were a young freelance dancer in other people's videos, and you had a reputation, you said, for being reliable, which is a kind of unusual quality at such a young age. And I wondered how. How you'd set out to be reliable.
- [26:35]
B
Well, I think that's probably my stepdad. I mean, he's. It's very relaxing here, by the way. He's fascian, like his family from Barbados. And I think that the way he was raised was maybe quite strict. Um, it's quite Victoriana. Like, we know it's kind of that very traditional West Indian culture.
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A
Yeah.
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B
No kids in the living room. Very respectful to elders. Don't eat around other people's houses.
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A
Oh, really?
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B
Wash your hands all the time, Shoes off. You know, it's like, very particular, like, way of being raised. And he definitely installed some of that in me. So when I was a kid, I would shine my shoes before I went to school and iron my clothes, like, always be really presentable. And it just installed this quite adult way of being in me, I think, when I was very young. And so that's carried on into my adult life. Although I'm definitely, like, a bit looser with it now. I like to turn up, and I like to do a really good job. I always. No matter what it is, like, if I'm gonna reorganize my sock drawer, it's gonna be the most organized sock drawer. And if. When I turn up on a job, I mean, I'll probably be, like, 20 minutes late, but when I get there, it's game on.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know, like, when. When I get there, it's once I'm on set, once I'm in the recording studio, once I'm in the rehearsal studio, like, I lock in, and it's my happy place. And I like to be reliable for people in that way. It's kind of why. It's weird that even though, like, I. I'm such a free spirit as an artist, I actually like. Like working with brands, like, when. When they trust me. I like working with brands because there's this kind of very specific job that you're both there to do, and it's kind of fun. And it's a challenge, actually. Like, I'm trying to think. Recently, I did the. The Gentle Monster campaign, and that was really fun because it was very ambitious, and it was a lot of physicality. It was also the end of the year when we shot it so obviously everyone's like a little bit more like run down. But it was really fun doing pole dancing and dancing and the stills and everything in one day. It was like such a, such an ambitious day, but we did it. And I love that feeling of achieving something very specific. Same with my tour. You know, my tour's very overambitious as well. And we just had I think like five weeks rehearsal time, something like that. And I love setting everything out in my head and knowing all the rehearsals I need and how much I have to train and what I need to do to get there, how many hours sleep I need on that day or training, how many weeks do I need to learn that one trick which I really want to like do on the pole? I like setting myself those goals and achieving it. So yeah, in terms of being reliable, it's like that self contracting system, you know, like if I can trust myself then other people can trust me. Like if I say I'm going to turn up and do something then, then I do do it. Yeah, because it gives me confidence in myself. Like when I, when I turn up for other people, when I turn up for myself, it means I can trust myself. And if I trust myself, then I don't have self doubt and if I don't have self doubt then I can be a better friend, a better artist, a better daughter, you know, all those things. So it's kind of a contract in a way.
- [31:00]
A
There's so much. No, not at all. It's interesting that you can have that knowledge about yourself at such a young age. And do you think that was instilled and that partly came from this good value system that you learned from your stepfather and the fact that you were encouraged and rewarded for your reliability rather than punished for any deviation.
- [31:35]
B
Trying to think, it's like I know that like being a woman and being a woman of color and being good at something is not enough. Like I know that and I accept it. I'm not saying it's right, but I accept it that in this year that I am born and in, in this era of the world that I am born, like I know that I have to be more than excellent to be invited to the table and to stay at the table and to be recognized. I know that I'm not afforded the same graces as other people that look differently to me or have different family backgrounds that are maybe more connected or affluent financially. So it's just, you know, there's no choice. It's something that me and my hair stylist Louis always say, like, sometimes we have the craziest shoot the next day, that we have this ambition to do this crazy hair, and neither one of us are going to sleep, but we just look at each other and we just say, there's no choice, because we will do it. There's no choice. So that's kind of how I see it. It's taken me two, three, four, five times longer in my career to get the footing or the, you know, I guess, like the recognition, I guess, in a way, for what I've contributed to my industry. And I'm not bitter about that. Like, I'm at peace with it because I knew that I would have to work this hard to get there, and there's no choice. So what am I going to do? Not do it. Not turn up.
- [33:44]
A
Yeah.
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B
Moan about it, you know, Like, I'm not. I'm not saying that there haven't been times where I felt disheartened, because there have been. But for the most part, I'm just really grateful to be an artist and to create and to have a vision. I'm just grateful to even have the ideas.
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A
Yeah. Yeah.
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B
So I just want to do everything really well.
- [34:16]
A
Really do. And you said about your name, FKA Twigs, that you wanted a selection of letters that sounded almost masculine. And it doesn't stand for anything.
- [34:31]
B
You.
- [34:32]
A
It's just a series of capital letters. And I wondered, did you want the masculine element to sort of act like reputation, like the ancient Greeks, when you were talking about, you know, having this wanting to be. Have your feminine self, but have this kind of slightly soldiery kind of demeanor as well?
- [35:00]
B
I don't really know how much I thought about. Was a very quick decision. I think it was like F. Fk1 or F. I don't know. I had, like, a different selection of letters at some point. But I like that it's tough. Yeah. You know, I like that because I think. Yeah, I'm quite, like I said, gentle in my demeanor, but I'm actually really tough. So I think maybe it's like just like a little, like, warning. Yeah, yeah. It's like a warning because just for other people more than me, you know, just to make sure that, you know, I'm not, like, underestimated.
- [35:52]
A
Yeah.
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B
For them maybe more than myself, that I am tough. Like, I'm very petite in real life, and I can be quite quiet and I'm very gentle. But there's like a. I don't know, there's like a spear to me.
- [36:15]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
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B
And so it just feels. I Mean, sometimes I think it's such, like, a silly name, actually. But it is me. You know, sometimes. It's funny, you kind of decide these things in your early 20s and then, like, that's you. But actually, you know, across the whole span of, like, almost two decades, it definitely makes sense. When you look at, when you look at the name of the. With the work, it makes sense, but I don't think if I was called, like, Talia, it would really tell the same story.
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A
No, it's true. It's got angles to it.
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B
Yeah, it needs some angles.
- [36:54]
A
Yeah.
- [36:57]
B
Hey, I'm Matt Buchel, comedian, writer, and floating head you may or may not have seen on your. For your page. And I'm starting a brand new podcast. Wait, wait, don't swipe away. It's called that Sounds like a Lot. As in that feeling when you just check your phone in the morning, you read through headlines and you immediately think, oh, that sounds like a lot. I can't deal with all this. But guess what? I can deal with it. And I'm gonna get into it. Every Friday, I'll break down whatever chaos is happening in the world. Then I'll sit down with a comedian. You can be progressive and not be, like, fucking annoying. Maybe an actor. They go, feminism has gone too far. You go, why? Cause the Sadie Hawkins dance happened? Maybe a filmmaker. Since leaving that show, I'm challenged sparingly. I just kind of hang out and try to do something.
- [37:35]
A
You're the one with a charmed life.
- [37:36]
B
Could be a politician. Basically. Anyone who responds to my cold DMs, we're recording the whole thing in a beautiful studio. So, yes, you can watch it on YouTube or you can listen wherever you get your podcast. This is not the place to get
- [37:46]
A
the news, but it is the place
- [37:47]
B
to feel a little better about it. That sounds like a lot. Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, I'm Mitch. First two time NWSL champion, championship mvp, and forward for the US Women's National Team. Before I went pro, I graduated from Harvard with a degree in psychology, which comes in handy more than you think. Any athlete pursuing greatness knows there's a certain mentality you have to have. What people don't know is what that costs. In my podcast, Confessions of an Elite Athlete, I sit down with the best athletes in the world and explore the psychology, mindset, and unseen battles on the path to greatness. So take a seat and learn from the Confessions of an elite athlete on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Maria Sharapova. Host of the Pretty Tough podcast. Each episode I sit down with high achieving women to discuss the pursuit of excellence without apology. This week, journalist Dean at USC and now, along with her husband Bob Iger, owner of the Angel City FC women's soccer team, will obey.
- [39:02]
A
I said, bob, are you interested in doing this?
- [39:04]
B
And he said, absolutely. But I was definitely the driving force, I think, in the conviction about Angel City. Check out Pretty Tough new episodes on Wednesdays. You can watch it on YouTube or listen in your favorite podcast app.
- [39:26]
A
Because I. When we, we first met, I think when we went to see Marina Abramovich's performance at the south bank, when she did the Takeover, and, and it was the first time I'd met you in real life. And I remember being struck by how self contained you were. And you've described yourself as being deeply reserved rather than shy. And I wondered what the distinction is for you between those two things.
- [40:05]
B
Be shy has more doubt. Yeah, be shy. There's like a fear that one can't do something. Whereas maybe reserved is knowing that you can do that thing, but knowing that you just need to choose when.
- [40:28]
A
Yeah, that's really good. I really know that feeling. And I suppose being reserved is about kind of regulating your energy as well, like when you're going to allow it out. And you said, also, I don't want to dance. I want to do extreme things with my body. And what, what's the difference?
- [41:01]
B
I mean, okay, so an example would be on this tour, I've had this crazy thing. I got it about two weeks before I went on tour. It's called plantar fasciitis. So basically, like, the bottom of my feet became so tight they went into a spasm that I couldn't point my feet. So obviously dance is all about lines.
- [41:21]
A
Yeah.
- [41:23]
B
And then at the end of the tour, I do this pole dance, which is more like balletic. Like, I don't have, like the big pleaser heels on, it's bare feet, and I'm just in nude underwear. And it's supposed to be this beautiful, more balletic contemporary number on the pole where, like, the lines are really good. And I've always, as a dancer, like, prided myself in my lines. Like, that's something that, that I feel very confident in. And I got this plantar fasciitis and I've not been able to point my feet for two months because every time I point my feet, I get the most insane cramp all the way up my legs and I have it in both feet. So the pole Dance at the end, when I was trying to, I couldn't even go and releve. And the thing is, it's like, dancers will understand that I don't have naturally, like a really high arch or a good feet. I really. I really have to. If I really point my feet, then it's like, will be in the line. But if I'm not concentrating on it, I will have biscuits. So I've. I have to really concentrate. Yeah, it's like, like a dancer's term for, like. If you can't point your feet, then you have like biscuits at the end of your. You know, like. I don't know, like you have like a biscuit at the end. So instead of it being like a line like this, it's like, we'll just be like. And so I've always had to really, like, really concentrate on pointing my feet the whole of my life because I just don't naturally have that flexibility. And so I'm doing this pole routine and I can't point my feet and I can barely straighten my legs. But the difference between dancing and doing extreme things with a body is that when I don't look at it as dance, it doesn't really matter that I can't point my feet because I can splay my toes and I can still be very flexible and overextend my split and being an over split, but my toes can be splayed and my ankles can be flexed and it kind of maybe even makes it better. And I think for me, that's been the switch of not looking at things as dance so much. Like just looking at things as like an extreme thing with my body. And that can be like an emotional extreme as well. It can be expressing an extreme emotion or it can be expressing extreme tiredness. Sometimes when I go on the pole, I like, I'm so tired at the end of the show, and especially at the beginning. Sometimes it would take me a couple of goes to get into a move because my body's tired and it won't like do that thing. But then there's this feeling that that's a part of the show that to miss a move and have to try a couple of times again, especially in cellophane, it becomes a part of the show. So there's then so much strength in being in front of 10,000 people and falling out of something and having to do it again. And it's just this, like, focus of. Because that's life. You know, you fall out of a dance move, you do it again, you Fall out of a dance move, you do it again. So that's what I mean by doing extreme things in my body. And that's why I'm not really scared about getting older as well. Because you know, I'll just figure it out. I don't have to be doing like insane like flexibility things forever. You know, there's, there's lots of ways of moving for, for when one gets older. Like in martial arts. There's you can do wu with like in a fire way with everything's like sharp, you can do it like water you can do. There's lots of different forms of martial arts for different ages. You can do Tai Chi, you see like older people doing like Tai Chi, but it's actually like so powerful. The muscles are still so tensed, still working so hard. But it's maybe you know, when you're at a different stage in your life, emotionally, physically, like in your age.
- [45:56]
A
Yeah, that's fascinating. It's so encouraging that the idea of that because you said I've spent my whole life in fight or flight and I read that you'd been exploring polyvagal somatic theory. And has this changed what risk looks like to you? Is it more of an ecstatic thing rather than a warrior stance?
- [46:27]
B
I think I've just had to learn to work with my body a bit because like I said, my body will kind of do anything. So I've just had to work with it and honor it and make sure that I do things that calm it down from like a nervous system point of view. I'm not talking like a warm down or give it a stretch because really that's still trauma. Even like stretching at the end of a session is still like tearing muscles. So I'm more aware of what do I need to do to sometimes calm my vessel down in a way that's not useful in any way to moving or performance or artistic expression. So yeah, at the beginning of you sex you are. I developed a 11 step movement method called the 11. And it's movements that I've learned like that I've not like made it up from scratch. I've just sort of collated a group of movements that can go together for different aspects of one's life. And then those things also work with the polyvagal nerve and the nervous system to like calm you down especially I think for people that find it hard to meditate, it's really useful as well because it's like a physical meditation and also it's a self contracting system. So. Okay, so say for Example, this is the one I always use. It's called croning. So if that you have, like, a, like, screen addiction, like, technology addiction. Okay, so if I was sitting here with you now having this nice conversation slash therapy, and then I was like, I really actually just want to go on my phone. This is lovely, but I really just want to check my phone. Then, like, there's this cue that I could do, which is just, like, rubbing my hand like this. And it just reminds me that actually I don't want to look at my phone. I just want to sit here and talk to you because it's nice. And then while I'm doing this, you have to think of three things that are in the room. So you've got really nice candle burning. And also, your sofa's really smushy on my back. Like, it's almost like a memory foam. So I feel really held on my back. And then the air is really still. So I'm thinking of these three things, and it's like a little cue to myself. And all of a sudden, I'm back in my body, and I'm not craving the external stimulation of scrolling or whatever. So that's one. But then that you can do when you're out. But then the other one you can do, which is, like, the polyvagal nervous system calming, is for 11 minutes, you can do that movement over the whole of your body. And you can do it to, like, a song that you like, or I love doing it over, like, techno. And you basically rub. You give yourself, like, a body wash over the whole of your body, and you touch every part of you. Like, even things that you barely touch. Like, you know, I can't remember the last time I really touched, like, the back of my knee. Or, like, when was the last time I, like, touched my armpit? Or when was the last time I touched behind my ear? And you do that for 11 minutes. You just, like, check in with yourself and, you know, touch between your toes and in between your fingers. And it's, like, really nice because you just don't ever, like, touch these places. And you can do it really hard if you. Sometimes I want it, like, really, like. And then sometimes I want it really, really soft. You know, just like a caress. And it's really nice. So that's, like, one of the 11. And it's called croning. Croning? Yeah.
- [50:26]
A
Is that the word that you invented?
- [50:28]
B
Yeah, I invented croning because it's like Cronenberg, because all of his movies include the really fleshy meld with technology. Like, it's always like bodies melding with technology and. And that's kind of what we're doing with our phones.
- [50:48]
A
Yeah.
- [50:48]
B
So I called it croning film Cronenberg.
- [50:50]
A
Oh, that's great. That's so good. It's amazing how powerful that. Because when you were describing it, I could feel my body following it. And I love anything to. What I love about this somatic experience therapy that I'm also doing and that it makes you think with your body and it's not such a pressure on your mind. And suddenly there's all these other things that come to life and to light and there's other places to think from. I find that really stimulating. I was fascinated by your interest in Mary Magdalene as well and how history has reduced her to, you know, a kind of prostitute like figure. And I remember going to see Jesus Christ Superstar when I was 12, and it was one of the few good things. My stepfather, who wasn't such a positive influence on me, but he took us to see Jesus Christ Superstar in London. We lived in the country. And she was the person that really stood out to me and seemed so reasonable and credible. And she had this great song. And I wondered what drew you, what appealed to you about her?
- [52:23]
B
I mean, so many things actually, I think obviously, like Jesus's fab. But also Mary Magdalene was really fab as well. And I think often, like, what she did isn't really spoken about enough. Like, there are many scriptures and many. There's a lot of evidence that shows that she actually funded a lot of Jesus's missions. She also, in some writings was our first, first, I guess, idea of a doctor in the sense that my understanding is back in those days, like, you wouldn't really have one person that you went to for everything. She was a herbalist and she used herbs and fragrances and oils and. And seeds and. And foods to heal people. So along with Jesus, she was actually treating people as well with these herbs and these oils. There's the story that when Jesus died, she went to his feet and poured spikenard, which was the most expensive oil at the time, all over his feet. And this is, you have to imagine this is like in biblical times. This oil is the equivalent of billions and billions of pounds or dollars. And everyone said, you're mad because she's pouring this expensive and rare oil over his feet. And they said, you're wasting it, you're mad. And so she took down her hair and she wiped off the excess of the oil with her hair on the ground. So it like Soaked up into her hair with all of the dirt and Jesus's blood as like a protest for people saying she's wasting it. So she's mad. So she's like, fine, I won't waste it. She mops it up with her hair. So there's things like that that's kind of. I relate to. To that feeling and I relate to, you know, especially in the beginning of my career, dating men that had a lot more commercial fame than me. And everything I did was quite like, shrouded by that. And it was very difficult because I was doing some, like, really special things and special work and special art and. And it was kind of swallowed by the monster that is sort of tabloid culture and. Yeah, and these things. This is actually like almost like pre social media, a little bit quite old. But, yeah, like, it was a very, like, specific time. And yeah, it's then learning about her and thinking, oh, this is like an amazing woman. One of many, by the way. I'm also not saying in any way that I'm as great as Mary Magdalene, but I just saw some parallels and I found it comforting that with time her story came out. And I guess that's like that patience and that being able to be reserved and knowing that with time everything kind of works itself out. Because I think that even in recent times, there's just a lot more understanding of who she was. And I guess the reality is as well that. I mean, some. In some scriptures it says that her and Jesus were actually lovers and a couple. And so when he died, they had to say that she was a sex worker because then it would basic. If. If she was to have children, then it would make them illegitimate because it's like in everyone's best interest that there aren't descendants of Christ, you know, because that would be confusing for a lot of people. But, you know, I don't know, like, maybe there could have been, but then there weren't because their rights would have been taken away from them because they said that her mother was a prostitute. So. Yeah, it's interesting. I just. I also quite like the idea of the virgin in the whore. I like, really like holy, beautiful things. I think I like the kind of underbelly.
- [56:37]
A
Yeah.
- [56:37]
B
As well. You know, like my Magdalene with this duality. Like, it was holy and it had this operatic beauty and this rawness. But. And that's why I really started to dive into pole dancing and embracing that culture as well. Because as women, we are both. We are the virgin in the hall.
- [57:05]
A
Yeah.
- [57:06]
B
That's when we're the most powerful. I always talk about this. I am the Virgin and I'm the hall together. And a lot of men can't accept that. Actually. They find it very difficult.
- [57:17]
A
Well, I think even in. Even those stories and seeing it in that musical, which was actually one of the most brilliant things I've ever seen. But the person who was relatable was her Magdalene, because being of, you know, everyone's so one dimensional, really, the other characters, pilots, I mean, everyone had a bit more nuance in that play. But I. I always wondered why she seemed like the one who was relatable rather than Virgin Mary. Just seemed one dimensional. Jesus in some ways as well, because he was just good, you know, and she seemed to have more understanding and so she was very attractive as a person and. Yeah, and. Cause when with the pole dancing, I was thinking how you seem able to embrace and bring into your artistry these things that are attributed to, you know, like pole dancing is associated more with dancing in a strip club or something. But. And you said you wanted to learn it because you wanted to learn how to fly. And it's so poetic and beautiful how you use it, especially in the video of Cellophane. It's incredible. And it seems somehow both voyeuristic and very private. And I wondered how you nurture that balance of those things in your. How you show yourself.
- [59:06]
B
Yeah, well, I think for me, you know, learning to pole dance, it was also about reclaiming a narrative as a woman as well. And I know how to create and allure with it and I know how to seduce with it, but I also know how to intimidate people with it. And I know how to make other people feel uncomfortable with it as well. And so that's been very empowering. And it's been important for me as a woman to reclaim that narrative in my life's journey. I don't know, I guess I'm very like, respectful to the language of where pole dancing came from. And I like being able to add my story to that narrative as well. And it's been very healing and it's amazing to see so many women now pole dancing and, and getting in touch with their bodies in that way. I love pole dancing as well. Because the pole becomes your partner.
- [60:21]
A
Yeah.
- [60:22]
B
And like, unlike other partners, like, that pole will never let you down as long as it's screwed into the ceiling properly, you know, like, that pole's always going to be there for you. It's always going to hold you. Like when you're hanging on to it, it's never going to drop you, you know, so there's that trust there again. Pole dancing installs a lot of trust in me because I have to be very present because you can fall off and hurt yourself. So. Yeah, so it allows me to be present in my relationship with something which. Which I like, and then becomes a nice microcosm for the rest of my life.
- [60:56]
A
Yeah, it's really hard. I did some lessons once in la and it's an amazing feat to be able to do it. I had no idea how hard and how expert it is and to hold onto that pole and leave your hands free and the way you do it is like. It looks like real freedom. It's incredibly beautiful.
- [61:23]
B
Yeah, it is the best feeling.
- [61:26]
A
It's really fun because you were talking about Wushu as well, and the Chinese martial arts that you've also included in some of your work. And I remember I used to go to the cinema on Sunday night sometimes in Leicester Square at midnight. This was back in the end of the 70s with my best friend. And we'd watch. They would show martial arts films all night long, no subtitles. And most of the audience were the Chinese community. And it was amazing. The atmosphere was so. Everyone was talking and laughing and eating. And these films were absolutely incredible. And I read that you're working on a screenplay about the relationship between martial arts and the black community.
- [62:27]
B
Yeah. I mean, you can see, like, from the 70s, really, there was a really big explosion of martial arts films and including a lot of amazing black lead characters.
- [62:40]
A
Yeah.
- [62:40]
B
And, yeah, it's really beautiful the way these two very different cultures came together to create, like, a new genre. Which is my favorite thing when things like that happen. It's my favorite thing culturally. So, yeah, I was working on it. I have a video called Sad Day. Yeah. And I love that video. It is. It's been a slow process and I've learned so much in this process of trying to shape something that's very delicate and very beautiful. But actually, I feel like this year a lot of good things have happened with it. Like small incremental moves. But is that the right word? Incremental? Yeah, incremental moves with it, but it's often just about getting the right family around something you.
- [63:29]
A
Yeah.
- [63:29]
B
Honestly, like. And that's what I mean about being reserved. Like, it's not. Sometimes it's just good to wait because the right couple of people will come along and be the perfect final ingredients in the potion. And I think. I don't want to say too much, but I did have A meeting a couple months ago about it, and I was like, oh, this person, like, if they on board, like, it's gonna all come together and we're in talk. So. Yes. So it's exciting. I need to practice more, though. Wushu is the one thing I feel like I don't get to practice as much now as I used to. I can still. I can still cut some shapes, but I'm very. I'm like, aware of that skill that I need to. I need to work on it more.
- [64:15]
A
Do you have a teacher, like a. Do they have sensei in Chinese martial arts, like in Japanese?
- [64:22]
B
Yeah, exactly, yeah. In la. I in the past have worked with a teacher called Mr. Who or Master who and Teek who is in the Sad Day video. I was just in America training with him and then Sam Mack in the uk. But sometimes it's hard because I'm just not in the same place for a while, you know, so that can be difficult to find. But find the weeks, because really, it's like you have to do, like, a few classes every single week, you know, like, it's like the hours add up to train three times a week for two hours in the morning, and then if you do that for six weeks and you're going to get really good at it.
- [65:08]
A
Yeah, I suppose it's like you were saying about practice.
- [65:13]
B
Yeah.
- [65:13]
A
And it's so. It's so nuanced. It's totally mysterious. It's brilliant.
- [65:23]
B
There I was just laughing in my head because I do a bit of wushu on stage. And there was this one show where we had changed the show slightly, and I have started dancing the whole show in heels now. So I have these big stilettos that I do the whole show in. And we did this quick change and I go on and I do the next section of the show. And we'd only practiced it in the show, if that makes sense. We'd never done a rehearsal of it. And then I suddenly realized with this new change in this new costume, that I was about to do my sword part in these stilettos. And I'd never practiced it, so usually I was doing it in trainers. And then all of a sudden, I was on stage in front of loads of people, and I'm doing martial arts in a full heel. I think that was actually. It was either vague, I think it was either the Vegas show or even maybe Coachella. I can't remember which one. But I did it. I got on with it. But I just had this moment where I'm like, Holding the sword. And I'm thinking, how am I going to do wushu and heels? But we did it.
- [66:22]
A
It must have looked amazing.
- [66:24]
B
Yeah. Probably a bit wobbly, but
- [66:28]
A
you've got this extraordinary drive that you've talked about and to drive to learn these new things. And you seem also unplaceable and mysterious and also very direct. And you said, the most interesting part of me is what I do, not who I am. And is what you do who you are, or a container for who you are?
- [66:56]
B
I'm not sure really. I don't really know. I guess time will tell. Yeah, I don't really know. I think I just mean that I'm not really a very good celebrity or public figure. You know, I'm not very good at the. Now because of social media. There's sort of, obviously the music and the music videos and all those things. But then it's like sometimes as an artist you can be encouraged that your personality is like, also then your brand. Yeah. And some people are having a really, really good at having a brand of their personality and that stands like as strong as their. What they're making. Whereas I just can't. I don't really know how to. Don't want to. Don't have enough time to. And can't be bothered to make my personality the brand.
- [68:03]
A
You said something really interesting about how there's a thing that, especially with girls, that you can have written all these amazing songs, done all these extraordinary feats, and people want to know what are the 10 things you keep in your bag? And it's. It's as though somehow people won't understand or aspire to wanting to achieve all the feats and write the songs you do, but they'll. They can only relate to what's in the band bag. And it seems very. It's so redu. It's weird that people think, or I don't know who sums up, conjures up these kind of daft kind of platforms. The way you're supposed to meet that intelligence isn't on there when you're. You're so clearly someone extremely intelligent. That manifests in all these exciting ways that are real, really aspirational. And I was. I was stuck by that. Anyway.
- [69:10]
B
Yeah, I think it's okay not to be relatable. Yeah, I think I've definitely tried to be relatable and I've definitely done those things and probably will still continue to have to do those things sometimes. But I'm not really very relatable and I'm kind of okay with that? Actually, not kind of okay. I am okay with that.
- [69:31]
A
But, I mean, they're fun, those things, but not at the expense of everything else, you know?
- [69:37]
B
Yeah, exactly. And, yeah, I just really love what I do. I really love creating work. It's not for everyone. And I have, like, an amazing, the best core community of fans that any artist could ever hope for, and I love them so much. And even just going on tour is reinforced for me just how. How special everyone is that comes to my shows. And I say every show like, you are my superhero. It's like, you encouraged me to do this. I look out into the show, and everyone is so cute and stylish and kind and vibey, and everyone's dancing, and it's filled with so many different types of people, and that makes me so happy. And we understand each other. And more people will continue to grow that community and we'll do business biggest shows together. And, well, you know, for me and the people that listen to my music, like, every single accolade that they would hope for me to reach, I will reach that. And it will be in our own way. It won't be sticking to a formulaic album campaign or viral moment or interview or something, something like that. It will be in our own way. Because the journey's not been linear even to create this tour. Anyone that has seen it will understand it is such a physical feat, and it's so ambitious. And I've fallen down two or three times trying to create this tour. Really?
- [71:26]
A
Because in what way fallen down?
- [71:28]
B
Oh, my gosh. Like, logistically, financially, practically. In so many ways. In so many ways, I've fallen down to create this tour. And the fact that it's on the road is half miracle and half testament to the dancers, but also a lot of the people that I've met along the way to help me support what I do from a production point of view, because. Because I'm so ambitious as an artist is that obviously the other artists are involved. They're like, yeah, we want to stay late. We want to work harder. We want to do more dance styles. We want to push ourselves as artists. You know, a lot of artists understand that. But to get practical, logistical production teams or management teams that are like, we understand that we're not going to make millions and millions of dollars off this thing or pounds off this thing, but it's worth it. Because the contribution to culture and the moment of having a show like Body Height or at Coachella and what that does for the culture is equally as important as making £10 million. You know, I think a lot of people behind the scenes, you know, music is still just a business and art is a business. Whereas for me, it's my life and it's my lifestyle and it's my hopes and dreams and it's my childhood. And I'm also carrying so many other incredible artists that I feel so responsible for in honoring their dreams and their craft and their hours spent training and things. But finally, now, after a very long time, I feel like I have the logistical team around me to make sure that we're safe as performers to do what we want to do. From, like I said, a practical point, a financial point. You know, logistically, you would not believe how much it takes to put on a show. And one person doesn't do one thing, like, it's over for all of you. So, you know, being able to do. Yeah, being able to do this show is like, it's. Yeah, it's a dream. It's like one of the best things I've ever been a part of in my life, really.
- [73:56]
A
I mean, it seems to be phenomenally successful. I mean, you sold out Coachella, you sold out Madison Square Garden. How do you. How do you keep your body available to you for what you need when you're on tour?
- [74:14]
B
Quite strict with myself. Strict about my warm ups, my diet. Listen to myself. And then I'm also go easy on myself as well.
- [74:25]
A
Yeah.
- [74:25]
B
Sometimes I go easy, like, you know, since I've been off, I've not done anything. Everything I see that I want to eat, I just eat it.
- [74:32]
A
Yeah.
- [74:33]
B
You know, I haven't wanted to do any exercise for a week and I'm just letting my body do that until it says it wants to start again. So I think just listening to myself and. Speaking a bit like more kindly to myself as well, like manifesting with my words.
- [74:58]
A
Yeah. What kind of things do you say?
- [75:03]
B
It's not things that I say. I guess it's just quiet assumptions that I've made.
- [75:09]
A
Yeah.
- [75:10]
B
You know, it's not. It's just almost kind of living like something's happened.
- [75:16]
A
Yeah.
- [75:18]
B
Or like it's about to happen.
- [75:24]
A
Yeah. I really identify with all that stuff and trying not to always be a Spartan. That was. They were sort of my early role models when I was about 9. And I thought, yeah, that's how I have to be, you know, done that. Now everything has to be about an endurance test and it doesn't always produce what you want at all. So I think I like the sound of what you're doing? It's great.
- [75:55]
B
What's else I need?
- [75:56]
A
I'm Aries. What about you?
- [75:59]
B
Capricorn.
- [76:00]
A
Oh, like Kate Moss.
- [76:04]
B
Yeah. And Sade.
- [76:05]
A
Oh, really?
- [76:06]
B
Yeah. Michelle Obama.
- [76:08]
A
Oh, okay.
- [76:10]
B
And Jesus, of course. Okay. So today we're driving to southern New Jersey and heading to a data center. A couple weeks ago, I read a story in NJ.com and it was all about how there's a data center going up in Cumberland county, the poorest county in New Jersey, that's receiving some community pushback. And this immediately got my attention because data centers are going to from all across the country. I feel like we should be hearing politicians talk more about this, but we haven't really heard a consensus. Are data centers really a necessary evil? Let's find out. This is technology we've never seen before, Right?
- [76:53]
A
Experiment.
- [76:53]
B
We're gonna experiment down here. And we're the guinea pigs.
- [76:57]
A
And we're the guinea pigs.
- [76:58]
B
Exactly. One thing that happens in this country is there's no planning for the future future. Is it benefiting people or is it
- [77:06]
A
benefiting the elite and the money that's
- [77:09]
B
going into their pockets?
- [77:10]
A
This is not about abstract politics.
- [77:11]
B
It's about people's everyday lives. That's this week on America actually.
- [77:18]
A
Complex and unprecedented, the Spanish authorities are calling it. Passengers who'd been stuck aboard the Hanta,
- [77:27]
B
or maybe hantavirus stricken Dutch cruise ship disembarked in the Canary Islands this weekend, prompting the highest stakes game of where are they now?
- [77:34]
A
Since maybe Covid. Some of the evacuees, American and French,
- [77:37]
B
have since tested positive for the virus. And yet public health officials seem remarkably calm. We do have one individual who was taken to the biocontainment unit early this morning.
- [77:48]
A
And we assessed that individual. They are doing well, possibly because this
- [77:54]
B
is not the one to freak out over today. Explained drops every weekday afternoon. This week on Criminal, a man leaves his girlfriend at the top of a mountain.
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He's charged with her death.
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And then at the trial, his ex girlfriend testifies that the same thing had
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happened to her too. She screamed, she felt dizzy and, you
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know, at that moment she realized she was like completely alone. Thomas apparently left her. On our other show, this is Love, a story of another couple on a mountain. There's no ledges. There's. You're trapped. I had confidence that there's no way this many things could go wrong in a row. You can listen to both episodes right now on Criminal. And this is Love wherever you get your podcasts.
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And I've seen pictures of you at Rick Owens fashion shows and you wear his clothes. You're wearing his amazing boots today. And I love Rick Owens so much, and I wondered, can you. What is it that makes. I find, what makes you one feel so special when you're close to him?
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B
Rick. I mean, I'm not particularly close to Rick actually. We've hung out a bit and I really admire him a lot.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Especially not just the crows, which are obviously stunning and some of the best, but also the lifestyle around it, like the whole kind of unspoken philosophy around it.
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A
Yeah.
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B
I'm closer with Michelle.
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A
Yeah, she's wonderful.
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B
Yeah. Actually, but I think, you know, the thing about. I find with Rick Owens clothes, you said, why do you feel so special when you're around it? And I think because his clothes amplify what's special about you because they're so clean and so beautiful and so refined that actually you can't hide behind a lot. Obviously. I know there's like the big silhouettes and the big statement pieces, but I'm talking about the more sort of. I mean, I don't even want to say. I mean, you could wear any of it all the time. It's not that some things you should wear more than others because it's like bigger or smaller, but the things I guess are more simple. It is very revealing for where you're at as a coat hanger for clothes in terms of your personal style. Because sometimes if I have a shaved head, eyebrows bleached, snatched skin, and feeling good in my body, I put on a Rick Owens black T shirt. It's alien and it's elevated and it's extraterrestrial and it's like really, like, whoa. Just in this perfectly cut black T shirt.
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Or
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if my coat hanger isn't like chiseled, like refined, then it's. It's like just a really well cut, beautiful black T shirt. Does that make sense?
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A
Yeah. Yeah.
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So it's kind of very revealing, I would say, to wear to the. To your. Almost like your personal style before you even put on clothes, which is an elevation or a challenge, depending on, like, where you're at on that day, which I like. I enjoy that.
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Yeah.
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B
I don't know if that makes any sense. Do I need to explain that better?
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No, I think it. Well, how I was receiving it was almost like his clothes, you know, like they have those horrible garments that change color when your temperature changes. But there's something about his clothes that they show. They seem like you described, reveal part of you that maybe is reticent if you're in A different mode. And I feel like his clothes do that, and it's coming from him. And I don't know Rick that well, but I feel this enormous good kind of feeling towards him, and I feel like he kind of generates that into his. What he makes and how he lives his life and his kind of family.
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B
Yeah, yeah. Because what he does is based around community. And some of the best designers inspire that, like Vivian Westwood or, you know, you think of Vivienne Westwood, you don't just think of Vivian Westwood. You think of the community. You think of Michael McLaren, you think of Adam and the Ants, you think of Annabella Luyne. When you think of Vivienne Westwood, it's really like a type of community that's based around, which is kind of like this sort of punk, but also people that are quite awake, you know, people
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that are curious about the world and value system, really.
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B
Value system. But, yeah, Rick has that in his own way as well.
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A
And if you fancy someone and don't like what they're wearing, does it kill your attraction?
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B
No, no. I've dated plenty of people that don't have, like, a strong sense of style. No, not really. To be honest with you.
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There's no repellent factor in.
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No.
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Any garment.
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I mean, not really. No. I actually don't really care about stuff like that. Yeah, I mean, this is, like, my thing. I would. It's nice. I mean, Jordan's got beautiful style, and he always.
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Yeah, he does.
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Looks, like, really wonderful, which is nice. It's a bonus. But, No, I think it's, like, what's on the inside that matters.
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A
And your album, you, sex. You is a word that you invented, but it seems very much like a word that we need. And you've described it as the moment of nothingness before ecstasy. And is that feeling part of why you're always moving forward and expanding your horizon?
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B
Yeah. Like, always in the search of you. Sexual. Always preparing for it. Always want to be ready to receive it.
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A
Yeah.
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B
I don't know. I think I like to move forward because I don't like doing the same mistakes twice. So I like to keep moving forward because I want to be able to learn in my life. And I just have this idea. I've said this before, but I really want to be healthy, able, sexy, financially stable. All of the wonderful things that you get when you get a bit older, but then, like, not an idiot, you know, because when I was in my late 20s and early 30s, I just, like, did really, like, stupid things. So I'm just trying to get this cross section where I can learn from those mistakes but still feel very youthful.
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Yeah.
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So that's why I like to move forward and try new things. Because it's like those experiences I've learned from in the past can guide me, but I can still feel very helpful. Helpful and still feel very healthy. And I can still feel very vital in my body.
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A
That's amazing to have that awareness at this point in life instead of most people. That comes a lot later. And it's so much fun as well. I love that idea of, you know, just that still moment where something's about to happen and having that as part of your resource as well and being kind of alive to it. It's a real adventure. And you've talked about body autonomy and resistance and about. Also about enjoying some of your nightmares. I mean, literally your dream nightmares. And I laughed so much when I read when you said, oh, actually I quite like some of my nightmares. And I. You're. You're an actor too, and you're. You've just made a film with Anne Hathaway and Michaela Cole. And I wondered, what do you do with your autonomy when you're acting in someone else's story?
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I just give it up. Such a relief. It's nice. I mean, there is a lot of freedom, but it's in a contain space, which is nice. You can go. You can actually do more with it. But yeah, that's the thing I love about acting is being able to just like drop everything. It's really nice. Especially if you have a director that really know what they're doing. It's really comforting. It's like trust. Trust. Yeah.
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A
You said about enjoying being like someone else's tool in a way.
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B
Yeah, I love it.
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A
Is that a bit like when you're performing and you know you can hit the note but you go somewhere else with it just because you can. Is it a bit like that when you're being an actor?
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B
No, it's different. It's almost like you're like a laser gun and someone's like holding you and you're like the laser. You just have to like, let them guide you. Yeah, it's like you're the laser and you can't fight it because you're gonna misfire, but you just let someone completely hold you and put you in the right place and then you shoot and then it's like on target. But that's why it just has to be with a good director. Because sometimes it's like, otherwise not a good director, but like someone that you have synergy with, because there's lots of different types of people, but. Yeah, but when you have synergy with the director, you trust where they're guiding you and you can shoot and. Because they know what the overarching vision for the film is, or even your character. Yeah. It's nice to let someone else use you, use your skills sometimes. Like in the end of Striptease, I worked with Marius de Vries, and I sing all of these really high notes, and he really guided me through all of those. And I never would have written that line by myself because I didn't know I could sing that high. But when he was, like, saying, like, sing this note, and I was like, I don't know if I can sing that. And then I did it, and I could, you know, But I would not have written that solely by myself because I didn't know I could sing like that. So. Yeah. Even in my own work, sometimes it's nice to let go of the reins and let people move through me.
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Yeah.
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They can, like, put on my. My flesh suit, like, put on my vessel and kind of create things through me with what they think that I'm possible of doing, which is really nice when someone almost wears you and guides you.
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A
Yeah.
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But with what they think you're able to do, because it could be more than what you think you're able to do.
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A
So it was Marius de Vries who pushed you to go that high for the. Was that the first time? Because it's such a. Kind of One of the things that you. When you talked about training with. That your singing teacher was an opera singer. And the way you sound as if you were just born with this ability to go anywhere with your voice. And how great.
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B
We've had to really work at it. Yeah.
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A
How brilliant that he saw that. He's a real. I mean, he's a genius at that.
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B
He is. Yeah. It's really special, actually. I think it's also the tone as well, because I've always sang very high, but sometimes I'll sing high and I can, like. I'll, like, flick notes. Yeah, I can flick really high notes. But then the way he encouraged me to sing it was really long and almost. It's like this woman. We spoke about this woman at the edge of a mountain. It's like the wind, and her voice is going into the wind and telling this story to the valley below. And this. This, like, woman on the edge of a cliff, like Pocahontas, or the leaves are gonna, like, push you Off. I've not sang with that tone before. It's almost like. I don't know, it's like. It's almost in a different language, even though I'm not singing words. It's really fun to do live, though. God, so fun.
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A
That's fantastic. And it's just been amazing to be in your world for the last in preparation for you being here. And I've enjoyed it so much and discovered so many things about myself as well and how I can relate to your journey. And thank you so much for being on Fashion Neurosis Twigs. It's been totally entranced.
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B
Amazing. I'm so happy I didn't cry. I thought you could, like, because with your voice, I thought I was going to be like.
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A
I never thought you'd cry. You just seem. I don't know, you just seem to be generating so much happiness into. I mean, I. It's incredible. It really is so striking and affecting and really happy tears. Yeah.
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B
I almost cried when you spoke about Polystyrene.
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A
Oh, God.
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B
Also,
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A
when I was reading about you, Mike Chapman. Is it Mike Chapman being, like, mentoring you and saying you were like Annabella Lewin? And I saw them perform and I actually auditioned for Bow Wow at one point because they kicked her out. They were always rowing with her and they kicked her out of the band and auditioned various people, one of whom was me, and I totally didn't get in. And then they took her back because they couldn't find anyone as good as her.
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B
There you go.
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A
Yeah, she was fantastic.
- [93:10]
B
That's what the Box used to do to me, really. When I worked at the Box, they'd always, like, fire me and then try and audition other people. And then two weeks later, after, ask me back.
- [93:19]
A
Yeah. God.
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B
And I'd always go back. Yeah, annoyingly well. But back then they paid cash and it was good. Yeah. I was living in East London and trying to do music, so I'd always be like, next time they fire me. That's it. And they'd find me again.
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A
Why did they fire you?
- [93:37]
B
They'd always fire me because, like, I didn't have. I was like the house singer there, and I didn't have, like, that really, like, big, jazzy voice, you know, it was like my own. So I think that they wanted me to be, like. Like, more like that, and I was just not able to do that. But then they'd always, like, end up taking me back.
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A
Yeah, I bet they.