Jerry Hall

Summary

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Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud — Episode Summary

Episode Overview

Episode: Jerry Hall
Host: Bella Freud
Guest: Jerry Hall (Model & Actress)
Date: May 20, 2026

In this lively and intimate conversation, Bella Freud welcomes Jerry Hall, the iconic ‘70s supermodel, to explore the relationship between fashion and identity. Hall shares memories from her extraordinary career, ruminates on love, self-perception, and aging, and offers sharp insights into the intersection of style, confidence, and the female experience. Their conversation blends personal reflection, sparkling anecdotes, and philosophical musings, capturing Hall’s humor and wisdom.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Early Influences & Family

• Fashion Roots (03:30, 04:41):

  • Jerry credits her mother and grandmother for instilling a love of glamour, inspired by old Hollywood films. Her mother sewed many of Jerry’s earliest showstopping outfits, including intricate Givenchy-inspired dresses and homemade feather boas.

    “My mom made them... going to the mesquite sewing center.” – Jerry Hall [05:02]

• Growing Up in Texas (13:15):

  • She describes her father as disciplined and strict—a decorated WWII staff sergeant who wanted sons but had five daughters. Despite his severity, she believes both parents did their best.

    “He did want boys, but he ended up with five girls. But we had to do all of our chores or we would get in trouble.” – Jerry Hall [13:32]

Entry Into Modeling & Paris Years

• Paris Adventures & Originality (06:09, 21:42):

  • Jerry shares how her mother urged her to go to the Riviera, making Jerry glamorous clothes. Arriving in Paris at 16, she stood out in memorable self-styled outfits, once walking a rhinestone-collared Great Dane through La Coupole.

    “I would put on these amazing outfits that my mother made me […] and I had these giant platform shoes which made me about 6 foot 4. And people would invite me to have a drink.” – Jerry Hall [21:42]

• Defining Her Look With Antonio Lopez (24:05):

  • The famed fashion illustrator Antonio Lopez helped Jerry find her signature style, drawing how he wanted her to look, which she’d then emulate.

    “He would draw my makeup and my hair and everything how he wanted it to be. And then I would look at it and think it looked so nice. And I would copy what he'd drawn.” – Jerry Hall [24:05]

The Role of Clothes in Self-Confidence & Impression

• Fashion as Identity (10:06):

  • Jerry and Bella both remember people by their clothes rather than by names or events—emphasizing fashion’s role in memory and identity.

    “If their clothes made an impression, I'll remember them and I'll remember every single bit of their clothes. It’s like a clothes memory.” – Jerry Hall [10:06]

• Clothes and Relationships (11:13–12:53):

  • On dressing up during the Studio 54 days with Mick Jagger, she recalls the pleasure (and occasional pressure) of being photographed and dressing to impress.

    “I always liked sexy and glamorous… I think I mostly dress for myself and my girlfriends because they really notice that men don't really notice clothes very much.” – Jerry Hall [12:04]

• Self-Perception Shifting (19:51):

  • Jerry recounts a formative moment at 14 when LSD (without her knowledge) led to an epiphany about her beauty and future.

    “I stared in the mirror and just sort of thought, you know, wow, this is what I'm gonna do. It gave me confidence.” – Jerry Hall [20:13]

Life Philosophy, Resilience, & Aging

• Gratitude and Perspective (06:09, 14:00):

  • Jerry describes her daily gratitude practice and optimistic attitude, crediting her resilience and career longevity to a focus on the present.

    “My philosophy that’s really gotten me through everything in life is: I always say, what will be, will be. And it works.” – Jerry Hall [15:14]

• On Aging and Rivalry (18:25):

  • She enjoys the freedom of age—less rivalry, no pressure to attract, and a sense of peace.

    “I quite enjoy being older because you can sit in the shade and, you know, you don't have rivals. You know, you don't have delusions.” – Jerry Hall [18:31]

Iconic Fashion Connections

• Playing Muse to Giants (22:29, 38:01):

  • Stories abound with encounters: meeting Salvador Dalí (who invited her to Spain for a nude film, which she declined abiding by her mother’s “no nudes” rule); being painted by Andy Warhol, who adored gossip and cleaning products.

    “He loved gossip. That was his favorite. And he...loved cleaning products.” – Jerry Hall [38:15]

• Vivienne Westwood & English Style (44:27):

  • Jerry relishes her friendships with designers like Vivienne Westwood, whose historical imagination and eccentric instructions for catwalk models she fondly recalls.

    “She’d say: ‘You’re women who live in a stately home in the country and the family’s lost all their money and you’re a bit mad.’” – Jerry Hall [45:18]

Celebrity Relationships & Family

• From Brian Ferry to Mick Jagger (31:36–33:19):

  • Jerry details the progression from modeling for Roxy Music’s “Siren” album (painted blue) to a whirlwind romance with Bryan Ferry, followed by her decades-spanning partnership with Mick Jagger.

    “We started up a romance and we were engaged and we were together for two years... Mick and I, we were together 23 years and four children…” – Jerry Hall [31:57–33:06]

• Handling Infidelity and Moving On (40:04):

  • Jerry candidly addresses Mick Jagger’s infidelities, explaining how she avoids dwelling on the past and emphasizes enduring friendships and co-parenting.

    “No, I mean, as I said, really, I don't think about the past ever.” – Jerry Hall [40:38]

On Portraiture & Art

• Lucian Freud Sittings (53:50–57:31):

  • Jerry reflects on being painted by Lucian Freud, their mutual love of poetry, and the discipline and intensity of his sessions—contrasting her experience with Bella's as his daughter.

    “I enjoyed sitting for Lucien. I thought he was so interesting and amazing conversation and one of my hobbies is poetry. I loved reading poetry and writing poetry and Lucien knew so much poetry. I was amazed.” – Jerry Hall [55:44]

• The Process of Art-Making (59:37):

  • Both discuss the fascinating discipline and observational powers Freud demonstrated as a painter; Jerry recalls his hawk-like gaze and capacity for deep focus.

Gender, Power, and Self-Assurance

• Admiration for Strong Women (36:43):

  • Jerry’s upbringing focused on female resilience and cleverness; her mother’s wisdom shaped her strength and independence.

    “Remember, you're the neck and you can turn him how you like. I think she was quite a feminist.” – Jerry Hall [36:43]

• Refusal to People Please (62:19):

  • Hall shares her liberation from the need to be liked, instead prioritizing her own values and boundaries as she’s grown older.

    “I think it's a big mistake in life to care about what other people think, you know, or to want to be liked.” – Jerry Hall [62:42]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote / Anecdote | |-------------|------------|------------------| | 02:45 | Jerry Hall | “…my mother taught me a wife should be a maid in the living room, a cook in the kitchen, and a whore in the bedroom. But I think I'll hire the first two and do the last bit myself.” | | 04:41 | Jerry Hall | “My mom made them… going to the mesquite sewing center.” | | 10:06 | Jerry Hall | “If their clothes made an impression, I'll remember them and I'll remember every single bit of their clothes. It’s like a clothes memory.” | | 15:14 | Jerry Hall | “My philosophy that’s really gotten me through everything in life is: I always say, what will be, will be. And it works.” | | 18:31 | Jerry Hall | “I quite enjoy being older because you can sit in the shade and, you know, you don't have rivals. You know, you don't have delusions.” | | 20:13 | Jerry Hall | “I stared in the mirror and just sort of thought, you know, wow, this is what I'm gonna do. It gave me confidence.” | | 24:05 | Jerry Hall | “He would draw my makeup and my hair and everything how he wanted it to be… I would copy what he’d drawn.” | | 31:57 | Jerry Hall | (On Brian Ferry) “We started up a romance and we were engaged and we were together for two years...” | | 33:06 | Jerry Hall | (On Mick Jagger) “Mick and I, we were together 23 years and four children and now we've got three grandchildren and we're still friendly.” | | 36:43 | Jerry Hall | “Remember, you're the neck and you can turn him how you like. I think she was quite a feminist.” (on her mother’s advice) | | 38:15 | Jerry Hall | “He loved gossip. That was his favorite. And he...loved cleaning products.” (on Andy Warhol)| | 45:18 | Jerry Hall | (On Vivienne Westwood) “'So you’re women who live in a stately home in the country and the family's lost all their money and you’re a bit mad.'” | | 62:42 | Jerry Hall | “I think it's a big mistake in life to care about what other people think, you know, or to want to be liked.” |

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Memorable Anecdotes

• Leg Wrestling Champion (06:09): Jerry was the girls’ champion of leg wrestling at her Texas school district.
• Glamour on a Shoestring (21:42): Hall’s Parisian entrance involved Great Danes, platform shoes, and home-sewn masterpieces.
• Salvador Dalí’s Proposal (22:38): Hall later regretted turning down Dalí’s offer to be filmed nude in white chiffon in Spain—her mother’s ethics holding sway.
• Living with Legends (25:54, 26:08): Stories of wild flat shares with Grace Jones, Jessica Lange, Pat Cleveland, and disco-era glamour.
• Warhol’s Quirks (38:01): Andy Warhol loved to discuss cleaning products and gossip, remaining a sweet, generous friend.

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Segment Timestamps

| Segment/Topic | Timestamps | |-------------------------------------------|--------------------| | Jerry’s Outfit & Comfort | 01:26–01:59 | | Origins of Fashion Passion | 03:30–05:15 | | Early Career & Paris Stories | 05:47–10:41 | | Power of Fashion in Forming Identity | 10:06–12:53 | | Texas Family & Childhood | 13:15–17:30 | | Philosophy of Positivity/Resilience | 15:14–16:21 | | Aging, Rivals, and Freedom | 18:25–19:51 | | LSD and Self-Perception | 19:51–21:13 | | Paris Nightlife & Artistic Friendships | 21:31–28:40 | | Blue Album Cover & Brian Ferry | 31:26–33:19 | | Practice of Sitting for Portraits | 53:50–57:36 | | Working With Vivienne Westwood | 44:10–49:07 | | Reflections on Gender & Directness | 60:29–63:32 | | Final Thoughts, Letting Go of People-Pleasing | 62:19–64:11 |

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Conclusion

This episode is a masterclass in living stylishly and joyfully, brimming with Jerry Hall’s vivid stories and Bella Freud’s gentle, appreciative probing. Together, they reveal how fashion is more than surface—it's a means of self-expression, resilience, and memory. Jerry’s openness about beauty, aging, love, and the power of saying “no” is as inspiring as it is entertaining.

Transcript

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[Skylar Diggins]

What's up, y'?

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

All?

[Skylar Diggins]

I'm Skylar Diggins, seven time WNBA All Star, Olympic gold medalist and mom.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

And I'm Cassidy Hubbard, host and reporter for nearly 20 years, covering the biggest names and stories in sports and mom.

[Skylar Diggins]

And this is AM mom, a community for athletes, game changers, and moms of all kinds. Dropping May 14th. Tap in with us.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Five. Come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. Jerry Hall.

[Jerry Hall]

Thank you. It's lovely to be here.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?

[Jerry Hall]

I'm wearing this Thom Browne cardigan and some Gucci velvet jeans. I just thought as I'm lying down, I'd be comfortable. And also it's gorgeous. I love Tom Brown's things. And these Gucci jeans are very flattering.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

And the ballet flats.

[Jerry Hall]

Yes. They're just comfy.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah.

[Jerry Hall]

No, I live in the country now, and so I'm often wearing jeans and cardigans. And, you know, I still come up to town and dress up a bit, but mostly I'm just sort of having a really good time in the country.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Well, you look dazzling.

[Jerry Hall]

Thank you.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

And you're the original 70s supermodel, and you were a pioneer of a new genre of models, as much valued for charismatic personality as your looks. And you have a great Southern wit. And you once quoted your mother saying, a wife should be a maid in the living room, a cook in the kitchen, and a whore in the bedroom. And I wondered, how did you.

[Jerry Hall]

No, no. It actually goes, my mother taught me a wife should be a maid in the living room, a cook in the kitchen, and a whore in the bedroom. But I think I'll hire the first two and do the last bit myself.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Well, you kind of made. You just made it seem fun to everybody else. And I remember, like, noting your kind of poise and your style and how you flipped through and owned things in this Kind of, you know, this exciting way. And it was really fun to witness that.

[Jerry Hall]

And, well, I've had so much fun. I've had the most wonderful career. I was so lucky. I mean, my mother. There was my mother and my grandmother and us five girls. And my father was away a lot, but my mother loved watching old Hollywood movies, and she loved glamour, and she taught us to love glamour. And when I was 16, I went off to Paris and started modeling. Got discovered working with great photographers and French Vogue and amazing designers. And I was just so lucky. My mom said. Actually I went to Saint Tropez because my mom said the Riviera is the place to be because we'd watch to catch a Thief. And she made me all these fabulous clothes. I took in my backpack that were like copies of. There was like a Givenchy snakeskin with all these panels. Your legs came out, and they were like, very, very fitted and tight with dolman sleeves and three quarter length.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Wow.

[Jerry Hall]

And she made a red satin one that had a little thin belt with rhineston and then it went tight to the knees and then flared out. And she had these. We got. Made these feather boas that we sewed strips of marabou feathers together.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Great mom.

[Jerry Hall]

She had me all ready. Everyone was like, wow, where'd you get those clothes? My mom made them, you know, going to the mesquite sewing center.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Wow, that's so cool. That's so impressive.

[Jerry Hall]

But I still love glamour. I still love clothes.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah, well, you're very good at. You're very good at them. You say you're dressed comfortable, but you look absolutely stunning. And no kind of concession to country living in your.

[Jerry Hall]

And I've got my Tracy Emin love necklace on.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Cause I remember meeting you in Mustique when I was 17 and you were probably 22.

[Jerry Hall]

Ooh.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

And I remember you lying on the banquette in Basil's Bar, like, just leaning back and your hair fanning out. And I remember that you were wearing a pair of tiny, little pale blue satin shorts. And you told me about doing leg wrestling in Texas. And were you the champion of leg wrestling?

[Jerry Hall]

Yes, I was the girls champion of my school district for leg wrestling. It was great fun. No, it's all been fun. I've loved every single minute. I've had the best life. And still now, you know, I wake up every morning, I go outside, have my cup of coffee, listen to the birds singing, and I think, oh, I'm so lucky to have a beautiful garden and, you know, four beautiful children, three grandchildren and have had a Fabulous career. All because of loving fashion.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah, no, it's a great kind of. It's a great thing to be alongside with because it's motivating even, you know, people suggest it's a kind of surface thing but it actually does make you feel good and then it gives you drive and energy and. Because I remember back in, you know, when I met you and I was. I remember walking.

[Jerry Hall]

What a good memory you have.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Well, you made a real impression on me because I, you know, firstly I was in Mustique and I was there. I had been sort of sent there to escape certain circumstances.

[Jerry Hall]

Lucky you.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

I had. I was supposed to take people out riding there but no one ever wanted to go riding. And you were there with Mick and I think you were there for Colin Tennant who owned the island. He used to have a big party every year and I.

[Jerry Hall]

That's right.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

I remember Colin like the one time someone wanted to go riding and I forgot or slept in and he got absolutely furious.

[Jerry Hall]

He had a terrible cry. I know.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Did you ever see him angry? Because he was terrifying.

[Jerry Hall]

Yes.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Do you remember what he did?

[Jerry Hall]

Oh, he was crazy. He did crazy things. But I mean he made mystique so beautiful and you know he made. Brought Oliver Messel to do all those beautiful houses and brought Princess Margaret and you know he brought so many people. He had great ideas but when he lose his temper he would just be crazy.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

You know, it was run. Yeah. It was like sort of someone in a Tennessee Williams play or something. He would become deranged.

[Jerry Hall]

I love his wife Anne.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah, Anne is amazing.

[Jerry Hall]

So great. I loved her book.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Her book is incredible and kind of liberate. Having this kind of new life in her 90s.

[Jerry Hall]

I know.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Very, very funny.

[Jerry Hall]

I saw her a few weeks ago.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Did you?

[Jerry Hall]

She's in such good form. She's a great survivor.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Because I remember in my steak walking behind you and Mick, well we must have been going to some gathering or something and I remember walking behind you both and you, I remember what you were wearing cause you looked so amazing and I'd never seen anyone dressed like you. And you were wearing like an oyster colored velour skin tight leggings and a matching skin tight top and your hair was cascading down your back and you've talked in the past about liking to dress for the man you're with and I did Mick love what you wore. What kind of things did you like to wear for him? Who knows, you know.

[Jerry Hall]

No, I mean it's interesting because you've described two things by What I was wearing. And I have the same kind of memory. I remember people by what they were wearing. You know, I don't remember where we were or what their names are, but if they're. If their clothes made an impression, I'll remember them and I'll remember every single bit of their clothes. It's like a clothes memory.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah. Also, I think certain people bring out the desire to dress in a particular way. I actually love it if a man wants me to wear certain things. And. And it must have been so much fun for you with this spectacular figure and being so beautiful to kind of. Did you enjoy indulging that kind of fantasy in your admirers?

[Jerry Hall]

Well, I mean, Mick and I, we used to go a lot to parties, you know, and so we would always dress up. And we used to go. We spent, so. I think it was three years going practically every night to Studio 54, and everyone dressed up. It was such a spectacle. It was so much fun. But also being out with Mick and going to these events, we used to get photographed a lot. And so I used to always take care to wear something beautiful. And I always liked sexy and glamorous. And, you know, Mick, of course, he's a man. They normally like you to dress sexy, but.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Cause some men like a prim look,

[Jerry Hall]

always dress for the man. I think I mostly dress for myself and my girlfriends because they really notice that men don't really notice clothes very much. I mean, they don't notice a lot. Like, sort of, you know, men won't notice if women have had too much plastic surgery or anything. They just say, oh, she looks pretty good. You know, it's like they don't really. It's really women who really notice everything.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

It's true that about men not noticing plastic surgery, they.

[Jerry Hall]

They don't notice a lot.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Whereas we spot the smallest tweezers. I know. That's quite good.

[Jerry Hall]

And women really notice your clothes. You know, men will say, oh, you look lovely. But women will go, oh, I love that jacket. That's such a nice cut. Where'd you get that? You know, it's a whole detail women see.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Do you think men more notice the effect that your clothes are having on them?

[Jerry Hall]

Yes.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah. Because you grew up in Texas and you're with a dominant and alcoholic father who wanted sons but had five daughters. And do you think you suppressed aspects of yourself to accommodate your father and his.

[Jerry Hall]

Well, he was an alcoholic.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Oh, really?

[Jerry Hall]

No. People say that, but I don't know where that came from. He was General Patton's staff sergeant on all his campaigns in World War II. And he was a much decorated hero and he was extremely organized. And we had lists of chores to do and things to do. He did want boys, but he ended up with five girls. But we had to do all of our chores or we would get in trouble. And he was quite frightening. But I think he did the best he could, you know, I think he did the best he could. And I think my mother did, too. Yeah, I mean, I tend to not think about the past or bad things. I tend to just, like, think about the future or now. I never go to psychiatrists or doctors even. I don't really like the idea of, like, labeling yourself or taking medication or anything like that. I mean, I think your mind is like a computer. You just put in and it just reads it, you know, like. So if you say to yourself, you wake up in the morning and you say, oh, I'm so thankful for everything. I'm so happy. I'm going to have the most wonderful, joyful day. I think your mind just takes that in and that happens. I mean, my philosophy that's really gotten me through everything in life is I always say, what will be, will be. And it works. Even when you're sad, even if you're having success, what will be, will be works. So you don't put too much attention on success or trying to achieve it, because you know, what will be, will be. And the same with sorrow. I mean, life is full of sorrow and grief and people you love die and horrible things happen. But it's just the way we are as humans. You know, we get old, we die, you know, things happen.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Well, it's very.

[Jerry Hall]

It's worked for me. It's kept me. I don't think it's false positive. I think it. I think it's programming your brain and your body listens to your brain.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

It's true. And the other way around. And I suppose I'm always interested in. Like, sometimes I'll find myself kind of adjusting my reactions. And if that doesn't kind of, you know, kind of further whatever it is, I want. I sometimes go back and pull things apart and think, you know. Yeah, I did. My desire to please my father made me behave in maybe kind of.

[Jerry Hall]

Well, that's a good thing to be watching yourself, to get to know yourself.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah, that's what I meant. Really? Like, do you think.

[Jerry Hall]

Well, Aristotle says the secret to happiness is to know yourself. And I suppose, yeah, if you think that you're doing. You're affected by your wanting to please Someone else. And if you're diverted from your course, which would please you more. Yeah, I think that that's important to look at.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

It's interesting to know.

[Jerry Hall]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

What it was and why you still do it sometimes.

[Jerry Hall]

I mean, your father, what a brilliant genius painter. But strong character.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jerry Hall]

Well, I know. So strong men are always very attractive.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yes, definitely.

[Jerry Hall]

But, I mean, now I'm not dating at all and not really planning on it. Next birthday I'll be 70, which is quite old. I mean, we used to live three score and 10 was 70, and then since antibiotics, now average is like 80, but some people live to be 90. I actually had a great grandmother live to be 106.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Wow.

[Jerry Hall]

So you never know. But definitely more summers have gone than are coming.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jerry Hall]

So, you know, you want to enjoy life now. I quite enjoy being older because you can sit in the shade and, you know, you don't have rivals. You know, you don't have delusions.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

What do you mean by rivals?

[Jerry Hall]

Well, there's no women who are chasing my man, that's for sure, because I haven't got one. I quite enjoy that. And, you know, I don't feel I have any, you know, I don't have to prove myself in any way. I feel I've been lucky. I've had a wonderful career and it's gone on so long, it's ridiculous.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

And it's still going on, you know, isn't it?

[Jerry Hall]

Now it's just pleasurable, you know, a bit of reminiscing. And I still enjoy the thing of, you know, when you get clothes on and you do a photograph, there's that moment of, what shall I do? It's like a moment of creativity. I still enjoy that.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah.

[Jerry Hall]

And, you know, delusional, not being delusional is, you know, I mean, when you fall in love with someone, you're just completely delusional about everything, you know. That's part of falling in love, isn't it?

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah. Because I was reading that you said when you were 14, this guy slipped a quarter of a tab of acid in your drink, and when you were tripping, you looked in the mirror and thought, oh, my God, I'm so beautiful. And I wondered if, like, was that the first time you really realized how beautiful you were?

[Jerry Hall]

Yes. And that was the night I decided I would go off and be a model. Which, you know, coming from a small town in Texas, you know, to have this dream of going off to Paris and becoming a fashion model was very unrealistic. But taking, I mean, you Know that lsd, I don't know, just made me sort of. I stared in the mirror and just sort of thought, you know, wow, this is what I'm gonna do. It gave me confidence.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah. It's so interesting, isn't it, that it seemed like this kind of.

[Jerry Hall]

It changed my life.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah, it's. It's so lucky, isn't it? It's a real.

[Jerry Hall]

Could have been bad.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yes. Because LSD can go anyway.

[Jerry Hall]

And I'd never take it again.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

No.

[Jerry Hall]

Changed my whole life just to have

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

that thought, you know, because when you were describing these amazing clothes that your mother made you, and you. You went off to Paris and you said that you'd met Simone de Beauvoir or Jean Paul Sartre in a cafe.

[Jerry Hall]

And I. I met so many amazing people.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

What were you wearing? How did that. How did that conversation strike up? I was envisaging you in the.

[Jerry Hall]

I would put on these amazing outfits that my mother made me. And then I had a friend who had a Great Dane and I got a rhinestone collar for the Great Dane and I would take it to La Coupeau.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Oh, yeah, that was great.

[Jerry Hall]

And everyone would just stare at me. And I had these giant platform shoes which made me about 6 foot 4. And people would invite me to have a drink with them

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

and. Is that where you met?

[Jerry Hall]

And then they would invite me to lunch or, you know, to give me food because I didn't have much money in those days, and I was very happy to have a meal and I would just tell them my story about

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

growing up and they were completely transfixed.

[Jerry Hall]

I met Salvador Dali.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Really?

[Jerry Hall]

Yeah. And did he try to make you

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

do some sort of performance?

[Jerry Hall]

He asked me to do. Go to Spain and do a video, a film he wanted to do of me nude with a white chiffon scarf running through his garden. But I said I was so sorry. I couldn't do it because I'd promised my mother not to do nudes. Really? I really regretted that. I should have done it. But we became friends and I met up with him and his wife several times.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

I love your code of ethics imposed by your mother. It's sort of like an. A sort of a kind of safety net that you could.

[Jerry Hall]

It was good when I was young.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah.

[Jerry Hall]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Especially being so far from home that, yes, somehow you could have these. These kind of guides, you know, Oh, I can't do that because my mother said no. It's so kind of far fetched. But it obviously worked very well because you were great friends with the brilliant fashion illustrator Antonio Lopez. And yes, I wondered, when did you decide to wear your hair on that amazing. With the amazing side parting? And did he help you define your look?

[Jerry Hall]

He did. I used to pose for him a lot, and he would draw me, and he would draw my makeup and my hair and everything how he wanted it to be. And then I would look at it and think it looked so nice. And I would copy what he'd drawn. I'd start to copy all the makeup and wearing my hair, like, how he'd drawn it. And he was a great inspiration.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah, he was a famous kind of. Well, how would you describe that he was an image.

[Jerry Hall]

He's a fashion illustrator. And fashion illustration, you know, used to be more popular than it is now. You hardly ever see it anymore, but, you know, he would do fashion illustrations for Vogue and Elle and different magazines. And he was very, very talented. He was very creative. I actually lived with him and his two friends. We lived together. We shared an apartment for a bit. And he was lovely. He came with me. He was my boy boyfriend, sort of, but, you know, actually he was gay. But he came with me to Jamaica with English Vogue. When I did my first photo shoot with English Vogue, and Grace Coddington was the editor and Norman Parkinson was the photographer, and it was such wonderful shoots. And Antonio's in a lot of the photos with me, and he was just very inspirational. He always had movement going across the page. You know, he would just make everything come alive. So it's sort of movement and vitality.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Because you also shared a flat in Paris with Jessica Lange and Grace Jones. I did. I wondered, did you have any kind of rituals for going out and who. Who was the leader in your gang?

[Jerry Hall]

Hmm. I don't know. I'm not sure. I mean, I was new kid on the block, and Pat Cleveland's completely mad, and we used to see a lot of her. And then Grace Jones, she was also. She was even newer than me. She'd just first come. And Jessica was very serious about becoming an actress. Yeah, but we had so much fun. Getting ready to go out dancing was so much fun. We used to glue sort of glittery stars across our forehead. We used to do all kinds of things.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Where did you start with an outfit?

[Jerry Hall]

Well, we would start with our makeup and. And then, you know, we didn't have the kind of fabulous clothes that, you know, we wanted, but we would get things from flea markets, and sometimes some designer would give us something, and we would get things from, like, cheap shops and Pigall, these kind of sexy lace body stockings. And things. And then we'd have, like a big belt. We just. And we'd sort of trade between each other with different things. You know, can I borrow this? And can I borrow that? You know, it was a lot of fun, actually. The getting ready was the funnest part.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah. Yeah, it always is, isn't it? God, I suppose with your amazing bodies and beautiful faces, you could just have so much fun with very little.

[Jerry Hall]

So much fun. And we used to put on little shows for our friends. We used to do like, we used to sing. We're just three little girls from Little Rock.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Oh, my God.

[Jerry Hall]

And we used to say to Grace, you should be a sing. You've got such a good voice.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Oh, I would have died to have seen that. How amazing. Who did you put the shows on for?

[Jerry Hall]

Antonio and his friends. And, you know, some. We had some friends who were transvestites. And we used to put on. We were in this hotel. It had a dividing curtain with two beds on one side and one bed on the other side. And so we used to, you know, open the curtain and put on the show.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Oh, that must have been incredible.

[Jerry Hall]

We did get kicked out of a

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

few hotels for making too much.

[Jerry Hall]

Too much noise and smoking pot and loud music.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

God, it sounds so much fun.

[Jerry Hall]

Yeah.

[Maria Sharapova]

Hi, I'm Maria Sharapova, host of the Pretty Tough podcast. Each episode I sit down with high achieving women to discuss the pursuit of excellence without apology. This week, journalist Dean at usc. And now, along with her husband, Bob Iger, owner of the Angel City FC women's soccer team, Willow Bay.

[Jerry Hall]

I said, bob, are you interested in doing this?

[News Reporter]

And he said, absolutely, But I was

[Jerry Hall]

definitely the driving force, I think, in the conviction about Angel City.

[Maria Sharapova]

Check out pretty tough new episodes on Wednesdays. You can watch it on YouTube or listen in your favorite podcast app.

[Documentary Narrator]

Okay, so today we're driving to southern New Jersey and heading to a data center. A couple weeks ago, I read a story in NJ.com and it was all about how there's a data center going up in Cumberland county, the poorest county in New Jersey, that's receiving some community pushback. And this immediately got my attention because data centers are going up all across the country. I feel like we should be hearing politicians talk more about this, but we haven't really heard a consensus. Are data centers really a necessary evil? Let's find out.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

This is technology we've never seen before, right? Experiment.

[Jerry Hall]

We're gonna experiment down here. And we're the guinea pigs. And we're the guinea pigs.

[Documentary Narrator]

Exactly.

[Jerry Hall]

Exactly. One thing that happens in this, this country is there's no planning for the future. Is it benefiting people or is it

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

benefiting the elite and the money that's

[Jerry Hall]

going into their pockets?

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

This is not about abstract politics, it's

[Jerry Hall]

about people's everyday lives.

[Documentary Narrator]

That's this Week on America, actually.

[News Reporter]

Complex and unprecedented, the Spanish authorities are calling it. Passengers who'd been stuck aboard the Hanta, or maybe hantavirus stricken Dutch cruise ship, disembarked in the Canary Islands this weekend, prompting the highest stakes game of where are they now? Since maybe Covid. Some of the evacuees, American and French, have since tested positive for the virus. And yet public health officials seem remarkably calm.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

We do have one individual who was taken to the biocontainment unit early this morning and we assessed that individual.

[News Reporter]

They are doing well, possibly because this is not the one to freak out over today. Explained drops every weekday afternoon.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

And you then were booked to be on the COVID of Brian Ferry's album Sirens, and the designer, Anthony Price, painted you blue. And.

[Jerry Hall]

Yes.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

How did you go from the being such fun, the blue cover girl, to being in love with Brian Ferry? How did that happen?

[Jerry Hall]

Well, I was living in New York, working, and I went and did the English Vogue cover, which the whole series was blue.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Was that the blue telephone?

[Jerry Hall]

Yeah, the blue telephone and the blue swimming cap and swimsuit. And so Brian had hired me to come over to do his album cover and he picked me up and I was in a nice hotel. Anyway, he was so handsome and he sang so beautifully. I was swooning. And then we went off to Wales by train to do this shoot and Anthony had made this amazing mermaid outfit with these mermaid fins. And I had fins on my ankles and I had an amazing crown and Brian was holding the umbrella because it was quite sunny, because I had this blue body paint and they didn't want it to melt. Anyway, yeah, we started up a romance and we were engaged and we were together for two years.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

And then Mick whisked you away?

[Jerry Hall]

Yeah, Mick and I, we were together 23 years and four children and now we've got three grandchildren and we're still friendly. I'm still friendly with Brian too.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah, I love Brian. He's an amazing person. Because going back, I remember again in Mustique, you had this incredible.

[Jerry Hall]

I love what I'm wearing.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yes. So you were the first girl that I saw being sexy and wearing flat shoes. And I remember when we were there in Mustique, you saying how hard it was to find flats. And how is it Being incredibly beautiful and being incredibly tall. And I wondered, how does it. Does it affect how you plan a first impression when you're going on a date?

[Jerry Hall]

No, I mean, the good thing about it is at a party you can see where your friends are. You can see over everybody. But no, I mean, I think, you know, I've never been out with someone who is worried about me being taller than them, really. So I like wearing flat shoes because they're more comfortable. But high heels can look so pretty, especially with certain dresses. I tend to go for the kitten heel.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah.

[Jerry Hall]

Not the really, really tall ones. I think those are a bit too tall.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

How tall are you in a tall shoe?

[Jerry Hall]

Like, you know. Well, it depends if. I mean, I'm 5 11, so.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Right.

[Jerry Hall]

You know, however tall the high heels are.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah.

[Jerry Hall]

Really tall.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

It must be so much fun, though, looking down. Already you have these long legs. They're so, so long. And just having them even longer must be so much fun.

[Jerry Hall]

Yes. They do look nice in a photograph with heels. Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Because I was reading an interview that you did in 1978 with Andy Warhol and Bob Colicella where you're all talking about jealousy and they say to you, would you like to get married? And you say, I like being engaged, but I don't know about marriage. Guys start telling you what to do when you get married. And I wonder, has that been your experience?

[Jerry Hall]

Yeah, I think so. Definitely. I've always been very independent. I mean, my mother brought us up to be quite strong and independent. My sister Cindy was girls champion bull rider and saddle bronc rider, RCA champion. She rode in Madison Square Garden. And my sister Rosie was Dallas Cowboy cheerleader. We've always been kind of athletic. Athletic and independent and. Yeah, I don't think, you know, I don't think it. I could ever have someone tell me what to do anymore.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

No, definitely, because didn't your mother say another brilliant thing? Something about giving a man. Something about a man having the man

[Jerry Hall]

be the head, but remember, you're the neck and you can turn him how you like. I think she was quite a feminist. Yes.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

It's. It's a way, isn't it, to.

[Jerry Hall]

I mean, my daughter Lizzie, she's been working as a Equal Rights Amendment feminist activist for the Passing the era. She's been doing that for several years.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Wow. I suppose there's different. I mean, being brought up in the south and having a dominant father and you must have seen women sort of prac. Finding out different ways of getting needs met rather than being able to be, you Know now it's the fashion to me.

[Jerry Hall]

My mother used to say, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Oh, my God. You have to have a lot of diplomacy as well.

[Jerry Hall]

Oh, I suppose it was full of pearls of wisdom.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Because also you. You've talked about sitting for portraits by Andy Warhol, and.

[Jerry Hall]

Yes, Andy painted six portraits.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Really?

[Jerry Hall]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

And what did he talk to you about? Did he want you to tell him?

[Jerry Hall]

I loved him. We were great friends. He was wonderful.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Did he want you to tell him interesting gossip?

[Jerry Hall]

He loved gossip. That was his favorite. And he. Actually, we talked a lot about cleaning products, too. He liked cleaning products.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Oh, that's so interesting.

[Jerry Hall]

Yeah, because I told him how my mom cleaned everything with baking soda and vinegar, and he loved that.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

What was his favorite? Cleaning?

[Jerry Hall]

No, but he was, you know, he would. He would go out to the shop and buy different ones, try different ones and say, what do you think about this one or that one?

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

So great.

[Jerry Hall]

No, he was lovely. He was such fun, such a sweet man. He was so generous and kind. Yeah, I miss him.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah, he was a great.

[Jerry Hall]

It was terrible, you know, how many people. You know, there was a whole period in New York where so many people died. It was terrible.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

I remember meeting him just once when. But it was after he'd been shot, and he was quite frail, and he came to London once, and it was really exciting to see him. I mean, I. As time passes, his work. I am more and more in love and obsessed with his work. I just.

[Jerry Hall]

Me, too.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

I think he's an incredible.

[Jerry Hall]

What a genius.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Genius artist and. Yeah, because you've been very magnanimous about your exes, and you said Mick was a problematic husband, but a good father. And you seem like a very loyal person. And I wondered, how did you cope with your feelings around his unfaithfulness?

[Jerry Hall]

Well, I mean, it was such a long time ago, but we're great friends. We just had Christmas together with his partner, Mel, who is adorable, and our children, some of his children and grandchildren. We all went to Mystique. It was so lovely. No, I mean, as I said, really, I don't think about the past ever.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

I mean, it's quite something to go through. You know, I totally get it. Not to dwell on the past. And you clearly have come through things in a most kind of impressive and fantastic way that you're so happy and. But it's, you know, thinking of you as this young woman and I mean.

[Jerry Hall]

Well, I mean, everyone wanted to sleep with him. He was so attractive and so talented. Yeah, I could understand

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

but you used some.

[Jerry Hall]

He was Mick Jagger. What can you say?

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

And you just folded that. You kind of managed to.

[Jerry Hall]

Well, it was annoying, of course.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jerry Hall]

But I mean, now I think, you know, everything worked out the way it should have.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Criminal Podcast Host]

This week on Criminal, a man leaves his girlfriend at the top of a mountain. He's charged with her death. And then at the trial, his ex girlfriend testifies that the same thing had happened to her, too.

[Jerry Hall]

She screamed, she felt dizzy, and, you

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

know, at that moment she realized she

[Jerry Hall]

was like completely alone. Thomas apparently left her.

[Criminal Podcast Host]

On our other show, this is Love, a story of another couple on a mountain.

[Jerry Hall]

There's no ledges. There's. You're trapped.

[Lamb (Splendid Table Host)]

I had confidence that there's no way this many things could go wrong in a row.

[Criminal Podcast Host]

You can listen to both episodes right now on Criminal. And this is Love. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Skylar Diggins]

This week on Net Worth and Chill, I'm telling you my entrepreneurial origin story. How I went from working a 9 to 5 and making Internet videos on the side to walking away from a $625,000 a year job to take your rich BFF full time. I'm breaking down exactly how I knew it was time to make the leap, how I set myself up financially so I wasn't just winging it and what it actually takes to survive and thrive as your own boss. From cash flow to taxes to building multiple income streams. Because let's be real, becoming an entrepreneur sounds amazing until you realize you have to figure out all of this yourself. I did. And now I'm giving you the blueprint. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.com YourRichBFF hey, it's Francis

[Lamb (Splendid Table Host)]

Lamb, host of the Splendid Table podcast. Every week on our show, we celebrate the intersection of food and life. And this month, we're highlighting some of those iconic people in the food world. It's a new collection called Culinary Masters and we revisit interviews with some of the people who have really changed. How many of us cook and think about food? People like Martin Yan when I was so small, in the first few years, I can only work and help out the washed vegetable to cut up something and I help to bone the chicken. So that's why now I can bone a chicken in 18 seconds. Dr. Jessica B. Harris.

[Jerry Hall]

Well, you know, I now know that it was neither the iron pots nor the wooden spoons, but there were multiple unspoken and as yet still unheralded and in many cases unknown gifts that Africa gave to the cooking of not Only this hemisphere, but the world and Claudia

[Lamb (Splendid Table Host)]

Rodin, to name a few.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Why is this dish here? Who was here before? What kind of life did the peasants have? That's why this dish is the way it is.

[Lamb (Splendid Table Host)]

Search for the splendid table in your podcast app to listen to the series.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Now, there's also. You've. I mean, you've worked with all the great fashion designers and you. You made friends with Vivienne Westwood and she really loved you. And I. What was the bond that sprang up between you?

[Jerry Hall]

Well, I just loved her clothes, what she was doing. You know, there was sort of an Englishness, you know, and history. And also, you know, it was like a sort of costume. It was sort of. Sort of look, you know, I thought she had fun with it. I liked what she did, the way she would, like, twist things around and make them flattering in strange ways. She was mad as anything and she was a lot of fun. I loved working with her and just. I loved what she'd say. She'd say, like, before going out on the Runway, she'd give us a little pep talk and she'd say, so you're women who live in a stately home in the country and the family's lost all their money and you're a bit mad. So funny, because she.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

When I worked for her, she. It was before she was doing her campaigning for environmental.

[Jerry Hall]

Oh, yes. She went completely mad with that. And she was right.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah.

[Jerry Hall]

She was so important.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

She was very, very good at that.

[Jerry Hall]

And.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

But when I worked for her, she was. I suppose all her activism, in a way, came through clothes and being so individual and being so outlandish and her. And creating extreme beauty that people didn't entirely understand. But that was how she pioneered her vision. And she's so funny.

[Jerry Hall]

She used to say women in the 18th century, in the court had more power than they do now.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

I know she was kind of quite random with her history and her. I remember her saying she didn't really like Lucien's work much. And she said it was nothing compared to the work of the old masters. And it was like. I sort of like, you know, maybe I wasn't.

[Jerry Hall]

I wasn't. You didn't understand art.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

She wasn't interested in modern art, was she? She liked clothes, crannock and the people. She liked old masters. I've never really liked old masters much, but she loved them. Yeah.

[Jerry Hall]

I mean, some of them are amazing.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah.

[Jerry Hall]

But it was interesting that she didn't. She was so much involved in the art world, you know, it was interesting that she never kind of got it or embraced it, you know, she was

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

interested in aspects of life in certain eras, wasn't she?

[Jerry Hall]

And

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

how people.

[Jerry Hall]

She was a history teacher.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah, yeah, she was a very good teacher, actually.

[Jerry Hall]

I first met her. Sorry, I keep interrupting.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

No, no. I love you, Tim.

[Jerry Hall]

I first met her when I was dating Brian Ferry. I was living with Brian Ferry. Yeah. And she was with Malcolm McLaren running a shop called Sex. And I used to go in there and buy things.

[Shopify Announcer]

Really?

[Jerry Hall]

Yeah, I was like a regular customer. And they made the most amazing things.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

What did you buy?

[Jerry Hall]

Well, the corsets and she had pencil skirts. She had great clothes

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

because Jordan worked there then. Did she serve you? Do you remember her? I was too scared to go in. I mean, I was. Maybe I hadn't even come to London yet, but I remember she had that white beehive, didn't she?

[Jerry Hall]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

God, how interesting that you. You met.

[Jerry Hall]

Met her then, before, and I thought she was great, you know, with her shop with Malcolm. I loved the things they had.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah. Because before that, wasn't it Hung on youn, that shop called Hung on youn? That was Hung on youn.

[Jerry Hall]

Yes.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

And Granny Takes a Trip.

[Jerry Hall]

Which Granny Takes a Trip was before my time.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah.

[Jerry Hall]

That Mick used to go there.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Really?

[Jerry Hall]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

How did Mick dress when you met him?

[Jerry Hall]

I mean, he's always looks great in clothes because he's very slim. He's got a great figure.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah.

[Jerry Hall]

But, you know, I mean, he would always, you know, dress quite well sometimes and, you know, sometimes, you know, I don't know. He was experimental. He used to try things. I mean, we spent so much time on these weird camping trips where we used to go hiking in the Himalayas and camping out and we used to wear pretty awful clothes there. I would wear like these dirndls and kind of like Heidi German skirts and outfits. That's so funny. No, but Mick is very keen on fashion and his stage costumes are always amazing.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah. Yeah, they're incredible. And if you fancy someone and don't like something they're wearing, does it kill your attraction?

[Jerry Hall]

No,

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

never. Mm.

[Jerry Hall]

Mm. No, I wouldn't fancy them because of what they were wearing. I'm not a man. I shouldn't say that.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

It's interesting. A good point. Is there a thing? Because sometimes I find there's a thing that a man will wear that I find that garment attractive and it makes me then more interest. I know it sounds facile, but it makes me more attracted to them. Like for some reason I find denim shirts or khaki shirts. Really attractive.

[Jerry Hall]

Yes, I know what you mean. Yes. Do you have anything certain things like that?

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah.

[Jerry Hall]

I must say, when I go home to Texas and all the guys are wearing those cowboy belts with the big buckle, I quite like it. But you never see them around in London.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

It's funny how there are certain pieces that people wear that sort of just. They just kind of warm up someone's qualities or some element of their masculinity that is.

[Jerry Hall]

Yes.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Is suddenly makes them extra, extra hot somehow or other. I love.

[Jerry Hall]

I know what you mean. Maybe first impressions.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah. Well, you need something to attract you, so.

[Jerry Hall]

No, what I love doing is when you drive down the street in a car and you look out the window and you look at people's clothes, I find it very interesting. Some people can just look fantastic. And even if they're older or if they might be quite large, they can. The way they've styled themselves looks so great that it's quite interesting.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah.

[Jerry Hall]

I actually saw three men today wearing the exact same outfit.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

No. Yeah.

[Jerry Hall]

And it was this kind of shiny gray jogging pants with matching top that had a black stripe down the side.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

How stunning.

[Jerry Hall]

And I saw three men wearing that.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

I thought that was very odd, a sign.

[Jerry Hall]

But I love watching people, what they wear and how they style themselves.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

And you also sat. So you sat for Lucien, my father, and you sat for him twice. And I love that little painting of you pregnant.

[Jerry Hall]

So lovely.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

How was your experience? Because I always. I sat for him a lot. And he was a real stickler for punctuality. And when I was young, I was extremely punctual. Are you. Because I was always late.

[Jerry Hall]

Attack if I'm late. Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

And so you managed to be punctual for him?

[Jerry Hall]

Yes, yes. Once I got a flu and was really ill. It went into some kind of bronchitis. And I, you know, was on antibiotics and was very ill. And I had to cancel, I think three sittings. And by the third time, he scratched me out. This was another painting. He scratched me out and painted his assistant breastfeeding my son.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Because I. I always wondered what had happened.

[Jerry Hall]

Well, he's got a terrible temper. Well, he. His.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

He doesn't go out with his rage. He goes in, doesn't he? And my fear was always to somehow that he would cut off. And so that was your experience? He suddenly.

[Jerry Hall]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Closed down and that was it.

[Jerry Hall]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

God. So just the babies left in the painting?

[Jerry Hall]

No, it's got his assistant breastfeeding the baby.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Right, right.

[Jerry Hall]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yes.

[Jerry Hall]

And it's in The Dallas Museum.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Wow.

[Jerry Hall]

Near where I come from.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Oh, God. At least you got the little. Yeah, one of you.

[Jerry Hall]

The little one was lovely. That's when I'm eight months pregnant. Yeah, it was a fantastic, lovely pain. I enjoyed sitting for Lucien. I thought he was so interesting and amazing conversation and one of my hobbies is poetry. I loved reading poetry and writing poetry and Lucien knew so much poetry. I was amazed.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah, he loved poetry

[Jerry Hall]

and I found it very, very enjoyable spending time with him.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Do you remember which poems he. Because he would remember huge poems off by heart, didn't he?

[Jerry Hall]

And I remembered lots of poems and we would take turns reciting them. Really? Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Which poems did you.

[Jerry Hall]

Oh, I remembered a lot of Edgar Allan Poe. His was more English poets.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

He liked Kipling, didn't he?

[Jerry Hall]

Yeah, Kipling. That was it.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yes, I remember he like.

[Maria Sharapova]

He.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

He liked the Ancient Mariner and he joked and you. And he remembered this line when the Ancient Mariner is stopping people walking by in the beginning and there's this line that goes, let go. Unhand me, Greybeard. Loon. So somehow sometimes he would just say that. It was so funny. Yeah, it was great. How long did it take to do the paint the small painting? Because he was a slow. He took a while, didn't he?

[Jerry Hall]

Well, it was fairly quick for him because I was having a baby.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah.

[Jerry Hall]

So I think it was two months or something.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

And did you go most days or.

[Jerry Hall]

I went I think two or three times a week.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah. Yeah, it's nice. The sitters, you know. It's such a wonderful experience.

[Jerry Hall]

Oh, we had lovely lunches too. We had lunch with David Hockney and different interesting people. It was so lovely.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

He was really good company, wasn't he?

[Jerry Hall]

Yeah. And so he must have painted you a few times.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah, I sat for him. I think we did about 10 paintings.

[Jerry Hall]

Oh, my gosh.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

I sat for him a lot and then. And drawings and etchings and stuff. And then when I.

[Jerry Hall]

Must have been hard.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah, it was, it was, it was. But I really enjoyed it. And it was a time, especially when I started. I had very little discipline in my life and so that was my discipline. And I watched him being self disciplined and really learned about how to work by watching him.

[Jerry Hall]

Yes.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

And kind of what I could get away with, even though I didn't want to get away with things. But I. I would be really late quite a lot, which he hated. And it was like a kind of. It was something, you know, when you repeat things even though you don't want to. And I Eventually managed to be punctual after about 30 years, but it was good to know how it didn't work. And I learned that from kind of repeating this destructive behavior that I managed to rescue at the end by just continuing.

[Jerry Hall]

Yeah. I found it very interesting the way he would look at you so intently, so closely, you know, as if he was studying the veins under your skin. Skin.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Do you remember when he'd look at you and then his eyes would open bigger, like, to take more of you in?

[Jerry Hall]

Like, it seems something like a hawk or something.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

I remember when I was a teenager and thinking, oh, I'm going to try that, and sort of going around like some ridiculous, you know, just opening my eyes bigger and having some sort of mannerisms.

[Jerry Hall]

So funny,

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

because you grew up in a time of male and female archetypes and when. When it was considered unacceptable for a woman to ask directly for what she needs or wants. And has that changed now? And do you feel confident about being more direct or as. In a way, as being less direct, more fun?

[Jerry Hall]

Hmm. No. I mean, it's a man's world, isn't it? It is still, yeah. I mean, I think, like, say you got a builder looking at something. I think they treat a man different than a woman. Mm. It's quite annoying.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah, it is, I think. I mean, it's true. It is a man's world and. But there's ways of being as a woman that sometimes they get you. If you can have the courage of your conviction, you can get exactly the same thing, but in a different way. But it's. I don't know, I found there have been times where I've just thought, you know what? I don't care. Have it. Take it all. Because the fear of insisting that what I want is more important than what they want is just overwhelming.

[Jerry Hall]

You're a people pleaser.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah, I mean, I'm.

[Jerry Hall]

No, I'm not afraid of being unpopular.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

I'm learning that.

[Jerry Hall]

I mean, why do you care if people like you or not?

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah, I don't.

[Jerry Hall]

It's quite liberating to not care.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

I'm getting there. And I'm finding the act of being more confident gives me a whole new set of method, in a way. Do you find that?

[Jerry Hall]

Yeah, I do. I think it's lovely. I mean, I think it's a big mistake in life to care about what other people think, you know, or to want to be liked. I think you waste a lot of energy from what you want to do by trying to please people. I mean, I genuinely like gardening and entertaining and having people stay. And I love cooking and I like looking after guests and looking after my children, my grandchildren, my friends. But nowadays, if I don't want to do something, I just say no. That doesn't work for me.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

I think I've learned that people would much rather be told no than have some sort of ambiguous kind of unknown status. That.

[Jerry Hall]

Yeah, I think it's better.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

It's definitely better.

[Jerry Hall]

Whereas in the past, I go, oh, that sounds like fun. I'll see. I'll try. You know all that.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Yeah, I've. I've stopped doing that. And it's. I think it's much nicer for everyone because you know exactly what works and what doesn't and. Yeah, you can get on with it.

[Jerry Hall]

I think so.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Well, thank you so much, Jerry Horse.

[Jerry Hall]

It's so lovely chatting with you. It's quite relaxing. Thank you.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

It's been lovely having you here and after knowing you for so long. And.

[Jerry Hall]

Thank you.

[Interviewer (possibly a fashion or culture journalist)]

Meeting you when I was, you know, so in such a formative. And just seeing how. How fun it would. How fun it could be to be a girl, you know, you showed me that. I watched that and loved how lovely. Well, thank.

[Jerry Hall]

Thank. You, sa.