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- [00:09]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. John Curran. Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?
- [00:25]
John Curran
Gee, I didn't think that was going to be the first question. See, it's an old. I think it's Paul Smith. This jacket, it's a Tom Ford shirt and Tom Ford pants. And I can't remember the shoes. They're really old and probably Amazon socks. I like corduroy jackets. I've always have and turned out to be perfect for England. It's always terrifying coming, traveling, I never know what you know. I'm gonna be hot. I'm always dreading being hot. So turned out to be the right thing to wear.
- [01:11]
Fashion Neurosis Host
You just missed a major heat wave. So thank God, now we're back in the autumn, even though it's June.
- [01:20]
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- [02:01]
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- [02:39]
Fashion Neurosis Host
and your work has been widely exhibited and is held in collections including moma, the Whitney and Tate. And your paintings have sold for millions of dollars. And the subjects in your pictures are often wearing the most specific and beautiful clothes. And I wondered, how do you decide what someone is going to wear in a portrait?
- [03:02]
John Curran
Well, I think I showed you. I was doing a painting recently and I had a kind of red jacket on and I thought it, I don't know, it wasn't interesting. And my wife has this beautiful violet Plaid jacket and I borrowed it and I realized it was by you and had this lovely pink and pink and gray and white and black tartan kind of plaid and I, I hope it's okay. I, I made it, I turned it into a double breasted coat but it was the most beautiful color on the, on it had a kind of greenish yellow sky and the purple was, was really lovely. Kind of made the painting. But I mean, I guess I'm, I make up well a lot of my paintings now over the sources like Sears catalogs or Montgomery Ward catalogs from, from the, the time, basically from the time I was a, I was a kid. So, so you know, early 70s, mid mid 70s. And, and there's something about those scenarios and the, and the faces and the expressions and the hair and even the ugly clothes like I, I, I find transcend it. I, I can just. Those, I don't know, they, they seem to be endlessly applicable to, to almost like mythical creatures. So the clothes sadly come from you know, double knit pantsuits and stuff from those, from those catalogs.
- [05:02]
Fashion Neurosis Host
They look really good. They do look mythical. It's interesting and you described your home as the opposite of sexually expressive which is quite an unusual comment on home life. And most children don't want to think about their parents as sexually expressive. And what did you mean by that?
- [05:24]
John Curran
Well, I mean, I don't remember saying that, but it's I guess apt I, in many ways when the Sears catalogs would arrive, I would of course as a kid I'd immediately turn to the lingerie and you know, underwear section to look at the, you know, and the funny thing is in those, in that section instead of like bright smiles and everything, everybody's very contemplative and God really sort of meditative in their underwear and, but I guess, I don't know, you know, it was for better or worse. It's always been, you know, that's been a big part of my work is sort of sexual themes. I guess maybe the reason it persists is because I don't completely understand it.
- [06:22]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Yeah. Was it very taboo or silenced or was it just complete?
- [06:28]
John Curran
Not particularly. I wouldn't say. I wouldn't be comfortable talking about sex with my parents certainly. But it wasn't, you know, overtly forbidden or, or, or they were not religious, for instance. Or. I just think it's something I thought about since I was, you know, four or five. I, you know, some of my, I remember there's a, there's a painting in my show actually of two women seen From Behind Nude Women.
- [06:58]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Yeah.
- [06:59]
John Curran
And the one on the right has a kind of a well defined back. And I remember when I was a child in Santa Cruz, California, so I would have been maybe six or seven, there was this girl, a teenage girl, and she would mow the lawn with a hand and she would always wear a halter top and, and I would look, just stare at her back and, and, and it was the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen. You know, just jeans shorts and, and this lovely sort of glistening back. I, I, that's what I was thinking about when I made that. And I think actually a lot of the imagery in, in my paintings is a, a sort of child's, I mean, the one sort of facile way I would put it is, you know, it's a child's misunderstanding of, of, of sex and, and an adult's misunderstanding of childhood and like a sort of retrospective misunderstanding of childhood. To my mind, that's what the, the, the gigantic breasts, for instance. It's just a theme that kind of popped up in the 80s in my work. And I don't know why, I still don't know why, but it was. A way to get the vulgarity out of the way, you know, first thing. And then, and then, then I could think about making something beautiful after that.
- [08:56]
Fashion Neurosis Host
That kind of 70s seemed to specialize in misunderstanding. Really. Everyone, I mean, I grew up in that era as well, and it just seemed no one got it. Well, they didn't get it about children
- [09:11]
John Curran
anyway, but, well, I moved from, you know, as a small child, I grew up in Santa Cruz, California, which is a idyllic beach town with a university, and it was just, it was really kind of paradise. And then my family moved. When I was 10, my family moved to Stamford, Connecticut, which is sort of an awful place. It certainly was an awful place in the 1970s. And you know, sort of instantly, like the first day of school, you know, I got into a fight and basically got into fights, you know, every day thereafter. And it just, the kids were so mean and I don't know, I guess I was the new guy and getting picked on for that reason. But it was a rude awakening after this kind of. My mom was a piano teacher, so I always imagined in my mind Santa Cruz was always a sort of Debussy, you know, piano, piano piece, you know, sort of Claire de Lune played over and over again and, and Stanford, I don't know the musical equivalent of Stanford would be, but it wouldn't be Debussy
- [10:52]
Fashion Neurosis Host
heavy metal.
- [10:54]
John Curran
It'd Just be like, I don't know. Yeah, it would be, you know, some crappy, crappy 70s pop song.
- [11:02]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Yeah, because you said you knew you wanted to be an artist from the age of 11. And I wondered if wanting to be an artist was also connected to the sexual. The lack of sexual expression at home in your childhood. Even though I know you say you don't remember saying it, but I read it in a quote. But it just seems somehow like it could be like a breakout.
- [11:33]
John Curran
Well, I do think as much as I lament, you know, moving to the east coast, how much I hated the east coast as a teenager, I sort of think that's why I, you know, I guess I would have become an artist one way or the other. But I think it was a. The right kind of irritant to. To. To. To make that happen. I. Perhaps staying in California, I don't know. I mean, I always love to draw and. But. But I think I'm not sure I would have had the, the ambition and the. And the sort of the drama that would have been that I think is maybe required and just, Just the irritant and unhappiness can be a good thing in that sense. And so. I, you know, in many ways, my family was maybe. I mean, maybe I wouldn't say repressive because actually, you know, I talked to my father constantly. And it wasn't like a silent, you know, strict. They were strict, but not in the. But unlike anybody else. So. But I guess the thing is, with my father, we would talk a lot, but only about either physics, he was a physicist, either about things like that or about politics or about intellectual things. And so he was very smart and love to argue and love to take a contrary position on anything. And so I think maybe this sexual expression maybe was a counterpart to what we talked about. Maybe that was a counterpart to that.
- [14:06]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Cause you got some of your first ideas from album covers. And I was very affected by album covers, is that.
- [14:15]
John Curran
I think that was what I thought an artist was. You know, that was my first sort of idea of art was album covers. And I actually, I had a book. One of my. The first art book I had was a book on Frank Frazetta, who was famous for doing these illustrations for, like, Conan the Barbarian and muscular savages and busty, yet muscular, like weird, kind of the more I think about it, really strangely constructed women, but like sexy women in his case, in his sense. And so, you know, and I remember, like, I flipped through that book when I was like, you know, 10, and imagine I'd imagine, you know, sort of a weird version of air guitar. I would imagine a girl looking through this book and they're my paintings, and she's admiring my paintings or something, so. And then I think my second book was like, you know, MC Escher. But I did imagine maybe I would be a, you know, album cover artist or something like that, but. Cause I didn't really know that art existed. That was another actually very fortunate thing about moving to the east coast was, you know, I went to the Metropolitan Museum and for the first time in my life saw, you know, a real painting. Yeah, I had grown up. Well, I had grown up with paintings. My parents had these reproduction. Beautiful reproductions of, you know, famous, famous paintings that they had bought on their honeymoon in Florence. So I had a very good reproduction of the Portinari Altarpiece by Hugo Vandergoes, which is still kind of almost my favorite painting in the world. And I think they had also had Primavera by, you know, the Primavera. You know, they were like 20 inches by 18 inches or something of Botticelli.
- [16:40]
Fashion Neurosis Host
And
- [16:43]
John Curran
so when I was really little, I just kind of thought those were strange photographs.
- [16:50]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Interesting.
- [16:51]
John Curran
But then, you know, then when I saw a real painting, when it was. I saw El Greco, big El Greco painting, and it was just. Just astonishing. I just. I couldn't believe my eyes, you know. You know, it was roughly painted and huge and I, you know, it was. It was not so much beautiful. It's just like way more exciting than, you know, an album cover and just terrifically exciting, you know. Anyway, once I saw that, I thought, I want to do that. I want to make something like that. Although I carried on making like, dumb album cover art for years, but. But. But that seemed to me that was the first time I saw the real art, real kind of grand art.
- [17:50]
Fashion Neurosis Host
It's incredibly ambitious, your aspirations from, you know, not seeing art. And if I think about, you know, you just showed me some pictures of your son's paintings and drawings, and they're extraordinary. I mean, they're so. They're not just accomplished, they're just completely remarkable. You seem, Your family seem to have art in your. Kind of. In your ancient history. It just seems to have been born into you. It's really fascinating and it's affecting and. Were your parents strict about clothes when you were growing up?
- [18:36]
John Curran
I remember one. My mom, when we. I guess we were. We were temporarily pretty poor, I think, once we. When we moved to. Not poor poor, but, you know, tight with money. When we first moved to the East coast, and my mom would make my clothes. I remember she made me this pair of pants that. From a bedspread or something. It was from a material came from. It was green, like the color of this wall. And it was fur. It was like plastic, you know, it was like polyester fur.
- [19:21]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Oh, God.
- [19:22]
John Curran
So they were green fur pants. And I didn't think anything about it. I wore them actually, you know, that was in California. But I wore them to school and without thinking about it. And the kids, I guess, justifiably totally made fun of me. Although they would probably be pretty amazing now. But I remember that was a terrible humiliation. And I didn't have much, you know, I don't know. And that's the thing about the 70s is I do remember strict rules, not from my parents, but from other teenagers about you absolutely couldn't wear pants that were too short. That was kind of the worst thing you could do. And. And they had to be flair. If you wore straight leg pants, you got made fun of. And if you're like, things about. Weird things about, like your sneakers, if they were too clean, that would be something that you got made fun of.
- [20:35]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Oh, God.
- [20:36]
John Curran
Like you'd dirty them up after you got them. And I don't know, it was like, I. You know, that's another interesting thing about the 70s from. As a teenager is the clothes are just such a total disaster. But the girls wore shockingly sexy and revealing. Remember, tube tops were a big thing.
- [21:00]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Yeah.
- [21:01]
John Curran
And it's like, I can't. I look back at pictures. I just can't believe girls wore stuff like that. And. I mean, I remember I really wanted a pair of. Of what are the shoes? Not Adidas, but Puma. I wanted some suede Puma shoes, but they were like $22 or something. And it was like I couldn't. No way. You know, Like, I couldn't get them. So. So. So I had to get like, the crummy. The crummy ones from Caldor's and. Oh, and the worst was fake jeans, so. And my sister would call me Fake Jeaner. And so there were those denim that never. That never fades. So it's like it just stays that color till it gets holes in it. And like, you know, it's polyester. And so I had the, you know, the horror of fake jeans and. Yeah, but so my clothing memories are not good from my childhood, you know,
- [22:18]
Fashion Neurosis Host
but it seems to have influenced you because you have the most amazing taste in clothes.
- [22:24]
Fetch Pet Insurance Announcer
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- [22:25]
Fashion Neurosis Host
You always dress in this kind of fantastic way that is so Subtle and seems so natural. But it's like today the one thing
- [22:37]
John Curran
that's been kind of disastrous for me is, is when I have a, my studio now is, is just like a few blocks from my house and so I don't have any incentive to wear nice. You know, I used to never want to be. I, I mean, I just wear my painting clothes now every day. You know, I put them on in the morning and wear them to the studio and then wear them, you know, so they're just. My kids make fun of me. It's just Amazon essentials, you know, like a short sleeve shirt and some pants. And so I guess I don't dress that well on a daily basis anymore. It's just work clothes. But yeah, I mean, you know, my dad did have a weakness for nice clothes. He always dressed really well, like, like Burberry, you know, like kind of expensive things when you think about it, for his budget. So really, you know, really great. And he'd always have really amazing jeans like, like, like, like Levi, you know, because he was from Oklahoma and, and you know, always had like fantastic jeans from like the 60s or the 50s, you know.
- [23:57]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Wow. So he was the dresser rather than your mother?
- [24:00]
John Curran
Yeah, actually, yeah. And he always had these fantastic jackets with leather elbows and I don't know, he always dressed pretty well because this
- [24:15]
Fashion Neurosis Host
is great, the blue check shirt with this kind of subtle kind of. What would you call that color?
- [24:24]
John Curran
It's got so many, it's like a cobalt blue, I guess, and the corduroy,
- [24:35]
Fashion Neurosis Host
the needle cord, it's like, it's a really, it's a great color because it's got a kind of blonde with a green undertone to it. Yeah, looks really good.
- [24:47]
John Curran
Thank you.
- [24:48]
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- [25:20]
News Anchor
the US and Iran say they've agreed on terms to end the war and reopen the Strait of Hormuz.
- [25:26]
Podcast Host
You already see oil prices from a
- [25:28]
John Curran
high of $126 a barrel down to about $80 a barrel today. That's, that's a lot of progress.
- [25:34]
News Anchor
The war, of course, drove up the price of gas and other essentials and has led to some ugly polling For President Trump, 61% of adults polled by NPR, PBS and Marist disapprove of his handling of the economy. His handling in a certain light makes sense. His priority was preventing Iran from getting nukes. But Trump's messaging was unusual, unusual for a president. Last month, a reporter asked Trump to what extent was he thinking about Americans finances when he negotiated with Iran.
- [26:01]
John Curran
I don't think about American financial situation. I don't think about anybody.
- [26:07]
News Anchor
I think about what's he doing. Coming up on Today. Explained from Vox.
- [26:18]
Podcast Host
Hassan Piker has blown up in recent years. After the 2024 election, the popular leftist twitch streamer became a go to voice for the Democratic Party. But Piker's glow up has angered a section of Democrats who are growing louder in voice.
- [26:32]
John Curran
Hasan Piker is anti American, he is bigoted, he's anti Semitic, and he is deeply misogynistic.
- [26:40]
Podcast Host
So in March, a Democratic group called Third Way published an op ed in the Wall Street Journal's opinion section saying, quote, democrats are too cozy with Hasan Piker.
- [26:50]
John Curran
He is such an extremist that it will only do damage to Democrats and hurt their chances of beating right wing populism.
- [26:57]
Podcast Host
Now, Piker is controversial, no doubt, but is he toxic? I don't think this helps Republicans at all. I think as a matter of fact, Third Way's brand of politics has helped Republicans. Their attitude has been to constantly concede on culture or issues to the Republican Party and never focus on economic populism. I'm Estad Hernton and this is America. Actually, catch us Every Saturday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast.
- [27:22]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Cause your book Men contains some of my favorite of all your paintings. And some of these portraits have a masculine authority, but with that look of insecurity that women notice and feel protective towards. And you said my paintings are, if not self portraits, a quest for masculinity. And I wondered, how do you want people to see you?
- [27:48]
John Curran
I always think, I always think about it this way, like, like there's like James Bond, right? And there's. And, and, and I'm thinking that. And I'm not. I mean the James Bond of Sean Connery because I think like Daniel Craig actually extended it very cleverly to a different place. But I think the James Bond of Connery, you know, you never see him like walk down a street, you know what I mean? Like, he's either driving, he. And I often think about this, like almost every day, I think, you know, like, you never see James Bond, like walk to the corner and then wait for the light, you know, Wait for the walk sign or something like that, you know, like there's nothing. It would just never, it would, you can't imagine it really. And he's, you know, he's the teeny weeny little indignities of sort of social, modern social life just never happened to him. And that's one way of looking at a man, at a sort of ideal man. No compromise, not even being even aware of it. And then I was thinking of Clint Eastwood, especially in the Dirty Harry movies where that's all it is, is this amazing looking man who is constantly like waiting for walk signs and you know, you see his icky apartment and there's like a rotten apple and a beer in the fridge and you know, and you know, as a sort of American, I guess, version of James Bond or an American, you know. And I always, I've always like those two, you know, sort of ideals of masculinity have always kind of battled it out in my mind and I kind of love both. And then there's this kind of, I think in my paintings a lot there's a kind of a Mr. Potato Head version of masculine, you know, a man being sort of made from spare parts, you know, of, you know, nine different handsome men and slightly mismatched parts or, you know, and I wouldn't say, and I don't feel about it in the kind of way that people talk about, you know, gender now. It's not really, to me, it's still sex. And I don't think of. And I don't. And I personally, you know, kind of do believe that sex is not really constructed, that it is rather essential. But on the other hand, I'm fascinated with its construction as well. Yeah, the gender, the construction of it. But I don't, but I don't think about it in a political way. You know, my paintings are filled with things that are, that are really more about the construction of the perception of sex, which is gender rather than, you know, or rather maybe mixing a kind of essentialist Venus with then the construction that you see in for instance, a clothing catalog.
- [31:47]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Yeah, I was reading about when you talked about wanting to paint like James, like Sean Connery, but being more of a Clint Eastwood.
- [32:00]
John Curran
It's not so bad being Clint Eastwood. I can tell you. It's not a huge comedown. I mean, I think, you know, really though there's another character in there which would be like game show host from the 70s, you know, like one of these sad like plaid jacket wearing game show hosts from the 70s. Or like I remember There was this guy named Gene Rayburn and he was this terrify, Terrifyingly white teeth. White toothed like sideburns. And you know, like, that's another thing that interests me was those, those men from the 70s that were like. That had just missed. That had just missed, you know, the youth movement, you know what I mean? Like they were a little bit. They were close enough to taste it, but they just. But they're like 40, you know what I mean? They're like 35 instead of 25. And so they can't get it on with the hippies and they can't go to Woodstock and they can't go to. You know, they can't. There's no free love for them, you know, and it's. Instead it's just a kind of swinging or something, you know, like, I guess that was my parents, you know, would have been that generation, so. Or maybe they were a little older, but like you could feel it in the culture of like this desperation of wanting to take part in this. Like, you know, everybody wants to be like Mick Jagger or something, but they're instead, they're like Ed McMahon or they're like Johnny Carson or something like that.
- [33:48]
Fashion Neurosis Host
They seem so much more old fashioned than people from the 50s, really, don't they? They seem like they're made of plasticine or something. Completely.
- [33:58]
John Curran
I just think men, men got really. That was a, you know, not a heroic decade for men, the 1970s. So, so. And. And I think the clothes are a big part of that actually.
- [34:14]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Did your father like your work?
- [34:17]
John Curran
I don't know. I think, I'm not sure actually. I don't know. I think he liked. I'm not sure. I think he understood it. And he was very pretty sophisticated artistically and you know, his, but his main. He was a physicist, but. But his main enthusiasm artistically was music and, and like he would camp out when they, when they would do the Bayreuth Festival and play Wagner. Yeah, I mean he's a weird. He was a weird guy that way because I. He would constantly talk about how like. Like all he can hear is the first thing he thinks about of when he hears Wagner is Nazis. But he was dedicated to Wagner, to listening to Wagner and he disliked Warhol, Warhol's work, but he understood it very well.
- [35:34]
Fashion Neurosis Host
How. So how did. He kind of.
- [35:36]
John Curran
He understood what it was about and he understood. I don't think he liked Picasso very much, but he understood it very well. Weirdly, what he did like was. What he really liked was Kirchner. He really Liked those paintings.
- [35:54]
Fashion Neurosis Host
I don't know those paintings.
- [35:56]
John Curran
You know, Ernst Ludwig, German expressionist.
- [36:00]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Oh, right.
- [36:02]
John Curran
Spiky, spiky. Orange and purple and blue, you know, women in, you know, 1920s outfits. And he liked those a lot. And I think. I mean, I don't know, he liked some of my paintings quite a bit. I remember he was put off when I did a period. For a period, I was doing kind of pornographic paintings from pornography. And he was talking to someone. Someone asked him how he felt about it, and he said to him, people who like this sort of thing will like it very much so. Which I'm sure is something he read in, like, Macaulay or something. You know, he. He would remember things like that. So.
- [36:57]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Yeah,
- [37:01]
John Curran
But I'm not sure whether he liked my work or not. He was very. Both my parents were very supportive. I hate that word, by the way, but you know what I mean. They were very on board with me becoming an artist, and they encouraged it. And my mom, you know, got me, paid my violin teacher's husband $25 a week to paint with me on the weekends. You know, I could paint in his studio on the weekends. And that changed my life. That really helped me. And, you know, and they let me go to art school and paid for it. I mean, I think they thought I was a real artist from the time I was a teenager, and it was a totally respectable thing to do. There was no. There was none of the kind of cliche of like, come back when you want to get a real. When you want to have a real job or something. Nothing like that. None of the cliche of, you're wasting your time and you should be a doctor or something like that.
- [38:11]
Fashion Neurosis Host
That's really impressive. My God. So you're married to the artist Rachel Feinstein, who said that you'd seen her before you ever met and had started putting her in your paintings. And she shows up as the love of your life in. In so much of your work. And what happened when you first saw her?
- [38:33]
John Curran
This guy I knew. This guy that I barely knew called one. I was sharing a. Sharing a loft with Shawn Landers and Kevin Landers, two artists. And we had one phone between us all, and he called that phone and said, I barely knew the guy. And he says, oh, a very close friend of mine is having a show, is doing a performance, and she's very beautiful, and she looked like she stepped out of one of your paintings. And so. And he had told her that he was a close friend of mine, and that, you know, so it was Kind of funny. And so I went, and I went. She was doing a performance where she had built a kind of a gingerbread house and she was sleeping in it and in the daytime so people could sort of spy on her while she slept. And I went and saw, I went to see her. It was arranged that I would go meet her. And I, you know, I, I think I had seen her once before from like a distance maybe. And. But we, we just. And this sounds like. But we. But we actually walked up to each other and looked in each other's eyes and kissed. Wow, that's really the truth before we said anything. And then I said, I sort of broke the ice after we kissed. I said, I sure hope you're Rachel. And so, yeah, and I, and I. And she was wearing. Under. She was in her underwear, by the way. And she looked crazy, you know, she had a crazy look. And I, you know, and so I remember I went out to dinner that night with Andrea, my art dealer, Andrea Rosen. And I said, I met this. I met this girl and she's in her underwear. I guess she's kind of a bimbo or something. I don't know. She's very young. She's much younger than I am. And I said, but the thing is, I think I'm in love with her. I had a 10 minute conversation with her and I think I'm in love and I want to. I. And so I was supposed to have a show and I was having a show in France. So Andrea, she bought her a plane ticket. She gave me money to buy her a plane ticket. And so the next week we went to Paris and I proposed to her there. And she said no. Really, because she had. But she said no. But she said, well, I have to talk to my parents first. And so, so. But yeah, it was literally love at first sight. It really does happen.
- [41:38]
Fashion Neurosis Host
That's so one of the most romantic stories. Fantastic.
- [41:43]
John Curran
And it really is true. I know it doesn't sound like it's true, but it really is.
- [41:48]
Fashion Neurosis Host
I've seen you together and I can see it's true. Cause you described how being with her gave you what you described as freedom from the petty things in my own personality.
- [42:00]
John Curran
I remember when I first. When I took her to Stanford to meet my parents, you know, maybe a couple weeks after that, maybe a month after that, she had to go back. She had to go back to New York before I did. So I was in my. My dad had this lovely BMW 320i and I took her to the train station and I Still was just in shock at how beautiful she was. And I couldn't believe it. I was driving away from the train. She was walking away, getting onto the platform, and I was looking at her in the rearview mirror and I got in this terrible accident. I went right into the intersection and this car just T boned me. And I didn't get hurt. Nobody got hurt, but it was like I wrecked my dad's car, like, while looking at Rachel in the rear view mirror.
- [42:58]
Fashion Neurosis Host
That's like a.
- [42:59]
John Curran
But movie scene anyway. But, like the car, like, spun around like five times, so. But yeah, I was. I was in it, definitely. I felt like. I felt like I'd been wanting to paint her for a long time. And I do. And she still is, obviously my favorite subject.
- [43:33]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Jarvis Cocker saw your work in the Turner Prize in 96 and asked you to create an album cover for this is Hardcore. And it's incredibly romantic and suggestive. The. The image. And Jarvis said, without being too literal about it, you communicated the general discomfort that was being felt by Pulp. Was that a discomfort of a particular moment in the life of a man?
- [44:03]
John Curran
Well, I thought it should be said that the COVID was really more created by. By Peter Saville. I mean, he really. I. I did. What I did do is I did a lot of casting of. Of characters. Of these fantastic characters.
- [44:23]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Yeah.
- [44:24]
John Curran
I think, though, that they. But Peter really came up with a pretty beautiful, beautiful image for the COVID But Jarvis's songs, they're. They're so, you know, kind of this amazing combination of sleazy and. And. And innocent and. And, you know, dark and funny and. And, you know, beautiful and. And so. So. And I think. I can't speak for Jarvis, but I do think there was a strange. I think he was going. It was being that successful. Well, suddenly. Right. They've been working at it since the 80s, but getting what you've been dreaming and fantasizing about. And it's, of course not what you thought it would be. And so I thought it. It did. It did. At least to my mind, it seemed those characters, this kind of, you know, disappointing, disappointing, awkward glamour, you know, I don't know. That's what spoke to me. And, you know, the nice thing about Jarvis is they're not. I've never liked coolness. I've never liked cool art.
- [46:08]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Yeah.
- [46:09]
John Curran
And the weird thing about Jarvis is he's kind of like, on one hand, the most cool person you'll ever meet in your life. And he's also very vulnerable and awkward and at the same time. And anyway, you know, in a way, it is a little bit like what we were talking about 70s clothing. Like, there's a kind of a sense of glamour that just got. That you've just missed out on or something, and that you can't quite join that party, you know?
- [46:50]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Yeah. Cause there is a feeling of poignancy about that image, you know, There she is. She's so beautiful with this blond hair and this, you know, amazing cleavage that you can't quite see in the red she's leaning into. And yet there's a wistful feeling you get rather than just, oh, that's impossible. And I'm left out of that. There's something touching.
- [47:17]
John Curran
And that's why I remember seeing, like, someone writing, this is sexist, you know, instead of this is hardcore, you know, whatever.
- [47:30]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Because I read in an interview that you said, no matter how good I can paint, I lack the aristocratic style of a European. And given that your style is internationally revered, whose style do you like in that respect?
- [47:48]
John Curran
Well, I think what I was referring to when I said that. I remember saying that, and what it was was I was. I became. I still am, very obsessed with Francis Picabia.
- [48:03]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Oh, yeah.
- [48:04]
John Curran
And, you know, and then I saw a show, a large show of his for the first time, a lot of his work together. And what struck me was that even when he tried to make sort of ugly paintings, and I should say also, I always loved Martin Kippenberger's paintings.
- [48:27]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Oh, yeah.
- [48:29]
John Curran
But anyway, it's like he would try to be a vulgar American, and he just never could shake this beautiful, elegant arabesque or something, you know, like, it just. He couldn't. You couldn't. There's this fantastic movie, Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, where. What's his name?
- [48:55]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Michael Caine.
- [48:56]
John Curran
Michael Caine is sort of teaching Steve Martin how to be a, you know, a louche European in Monaco or something like that. And. And it's like Steve Martin almost gets injured, you know, trying to cross his legs in a chair, like a European or something. I don't know. It's hilarious. And, you know, in a lot of ways, Picabia, I could just see he just. He couldn't stop being, like, effortlessly elegant European. And it was kind of upsetting because I realized, you know, conversely, I'll never not be a kind of blockhead American. And so that's. You know, I try to not suppress that, I guess, even though I am obsessed with European elegance and. And the sort of. Or I'm very. I'm a sucker for it. And, you know, my house is Done up, you know, as Johnny Pagazzi would say, fake old, you know, by Studio Peragalli, these wonderful Italians. And you know, so I kind of live in this like, like mock European house and I love every square inch of it and I spent every penny I ever made to make it. But there is, you know, it is kind of sad. I come home from the studio in my Amazon Essentials clothes and I feel like I should have dressed up for my house, but, but I don't, you know. So I think a part of being, part of becoming a good painter for me was accepting, you know, my American ness and my sort of trashiness and trashy, not in a like, cool, like Lou Reed way, like just cheapness. Like I'm not European and I never will be and I can't really even imitate it.
- [51:27]
Fashion Neurosis Host
But in the way you're so much more, you have so much more elegance in your house. I mean, I've been to your house and trashy is the last word I've heard. I mean, it's the most magnificent, it's the most kind of awe inspiring. And it's so, is so generous that you bring Europe and these kind of fantasies of Europe into. I can't remember the area you live in, but it's really fun and really disarmingly beautiful and seems amazing to be able, in a way. I think Europeans can be kind of complacent or take for granted all these kind of curlicues or whatever it had wherever, you know, if they're in Venice. But it's. I love what you do with it.
- [52:17]
John Curran
I mean, I remember when I first, the first time I ever went to like another country was, was my girlfriend and I took the night train to Montreal, to the old, old, old Montreal. It was wonderful, actually. You get on this sleeper train and you wake up in another country. It was the first time I'd ever been in another country. And I was just amazed by like the beautiful fire escapes, you know, outside the, you know, they are actually very beautiful in the old Montreal. And I also went with her, I went with her then later actually to Europe, to Holland. And I just. Even ugly buildings, I don't know. So there was something magical about them. I don't know. I, I. So I don't, you know, in terms of my house, it's not like I'm pretending to be a European aristocrat. It's just, it gives me joy. Like every day I think there's more
- [53:19]
Fashion Neurosis Host
chance of a European pretending to be a European aristocrat than, well, Than you.
- [53:26]
John Curran
It is weird. The one thing about Europe that I find really weird is they seem to have never mastered electric light. Like, they can't seem to light, you know, like you were pointing to that book, Men. So that painting on the COVID it was a memory I had from the first time I went to Germany. And we went to a. I forget where it was. I forget what city was. I guess it would have been Cologne or something. And we went to a pasta restaurant, and it was just hideous. It was just fluorescent lights and, like, icky chairs. It was weird. It was like. It was Europe, but it was. The lighting was just so hideous. And I. And I do find that in a lot of your, you know, like. Like, just. It'll be like a beautiful room. Lit. Lit so atrociously. You can't. You can't. You have an anxiety attack being in the room.
- [54:40]
Fashion Neurosis Host
So, yeah, you know, Italy specializes in that because the food is so good and the room is sympathetic, and then it's, you know, like a factory or something. And both your parents died in between 2017 and 2019. And you described losing the desire to paint pornographic imagery. And that part of you that painted these images was to make your parents uncomfortable. And you said their presence has been so enormous. The reason for me making those paintings suddenly evaporated.
- [55:17]
John Curran
I think I only became conscious of that after they died.
- [55:20]
Podcast Host
Really.
- [55:20]
John Curran
It was like. I guess I had been sort of. At the time, I didn't think it was anything as dumb as that. I was freaking my parents out. But there was more to it. I was in late middle age by that time. And, you know, I don't know, it revealed something to me, I guess that they were. They had been. I mean, of course, they were a huge presence in my life and. And still are, but I guess it was a kind of suppressed rebellion and because I didn't. I didn't rebel as a child. You know, I wasn't, like, wild and I didn't. And I was, you know, especially with my dad, because he just had me. So it would be like, I'd want to go to a party and be like, well, why do you want to go? And. And I say just to see, like, well, what.
- [56:31]
Fetch Pet Insurance Announcer
You know.
- [56:33]
John Curran
You know, I want to hopefully, you know, unhook a bra or something like that. You know, like, that's my. That's what I really want. But I'm embarrassed to say that's why I wanna go to the party. And he would sort of. It was sort of almost like a, you know, almost like darkness. At noon, you know, like I'm sitting in a Soviet prison. I supported the regime and I can't figure out why. I feel bad. I feel like, yes, I deserve to be here, you know. Anyway, for whatever reason, I never really rebelled and I guess it always bothered me that I didn't. And I guess there was a sort of double plus ultra secret repression of that urgent that carried over into my. Into my paintings.
- [57:37]
Fashion Neurosis Host
How interesting is. Did you feel like a freedom when they did die or was it just that realization more.
- [57:48]
John Curran
I didn't feel freedom. Certainly didn't feel freedom. I guess I felt. I don't know. I don't know. It was. I mean, apart from feeling sad and all those. Of course, it was that feeling of like, wow. I'd been painting for them way more than I thought.
- [58:12]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Yeah.
- [58:12]
John Curran
And I'd been painting about them, about them much more than I had realized.
- [58:25]
News Anchor
So.
- [58:27]
John Curran
And, you know, that they were templates that were hidden and, and still are. And, and you know, they come to me in my dreams and, and, and, you know, and I'm more and more, you know, I've become much more sort of superstitious or rather less rational.
- [58:52]
Fashion Neurosis Host
How.
- [58:53]
John Curran
In what way? You know, my dad was very. Well, that's the funny thing. My dad was always very anti. Well, anti Freud, to tell you the truth.
- [59:05]
Fashion Neurosis Host
I think my dad was quite anti
- [59:07]
John Curran
Freud, you know, and he was so weird, you know, in retrospect, kind of strange. Like. Like he was. He was very, very enthusiastically. He really admired Darwin. You know, he had a first edition that he'd spent a lot of money on of Voyage of the Beagle. And he really, he really thought Darwin was something intellectually, something special.
- [59:38]
News Anchor
And
- [59:41]
John Curran
yet he. He started making noises, increasingly making noises that he was somewhat skeptical of evolution. It was weird. And he was a theoretical physicist, so it wasn't like. And he understood. He had read everything of Darwin, but he kept, he would keep saying, the older he got, he said he would just be skeptical of it. And he really disliked one thing he really pissed him off was when the New York Times would make fun of creationists, of dumb hick creationists in Oklahoma or something. And he really liked knowing a lot about it. And then, and then he would play the dumb hick, you know, and he, you know, and I guess that was. You know, my parents were both from Oklahoma and so when we moved to Stamford, Connecticut and the east coast, you know, they still had these accents. They have Oklahoma accents. So I think they got. I think there was some feeling like he was kind of A hick, you know, and not a hick, but like, they weren't as sophisticated as my mom's, you know, these wealthier wasps that took piano lessons for my mom. And you know, my dad would always make fun of them for, you know, having these gigantic SUVs and couldn't. They couldn't do a three point turn in our driveway. And the husbands always worked for like Clairol or something like that, you know, or like you'd say, like, he's in ladies underwear, you know, or, you know, these men. And I think that rubbed off on me also. These men, you know, these kind of wealthy men, suburban men who have slightly humiliating jobs like their corporate jobs or their advertising jobs, or they're, you know, doing something that's. That's, you know, that's. Although ironically, my dad was also employed as a abstractionist in a way, so.
- [62:05]
Fashion Neurosis Host
In what way?
- [62:06]
John Curran
Well, he dealt in. Well, ultimately he dealt in reality in the most extreme form, but it was all abstractions. He wasn't building furniture or, you know, or even painting pictures. He filled up books with Greek letters, you know, and equations and like literal abstractions. And so. But I think he. But these men that were employed as managers and corporations, you know, in Stanford, selling shit and, you know, I think he really didn't have much respect for it and found it very. Found them clown like. And I guess I inherited that a little bit too.
- [63:00]
Fashion Neurosis Host
I suppose they're quite easy targets. I mean, and they're incredibly presumptuous, a lot of those people, aren't they? But I sat next to you once at dinner and you told me about a conversation you'd had with my father, Lucien. I wondered what you talked about.
- [63:20]
John Curran
Well, honestly, it was very loud. It was funny. It's a funny story. I think I told you. You told me, but I. Rachel and I were. I was having an opening at Sadie Cole's and Rachel and I were just like sort of luxuriating at the hotel, you know, and having a drink and. And it was a little bit after the beginning of the opening and Sadie calls and says, get your asses over here. Lucian Freud's here. And so I. Oh, shit. So I kind of ran and I was more starstruck. The truth is, I don't quite remember what we talked about because I was very starstruck to be. To see him and to be talking and that he's talking to me and that he's at my show. It was. He gave me some compliments, but I. On a couple of paintings. But I was so Starstruck that I. The truth is I don't think I had a meaningful conversation with him. It was more. I was just more like, I can't believe I'm talking to Lucian Freud.
- [64:41]
Fashion Neurosis Host
He was quite hard to talk to because he was quite shy. So when you said that, I was so excited about the idea of you both talking and talking to each other. And I remember you said he'd paid you some compliments, which he certainly didn't do without meaning them and being completely sincere. And it was, it was, it was.
- [65:05]
John Curran
Well, it was too, it was too chaotic and allowed a scene to, to, to have a, a meaningful conversation. It was just. I had thought about this guy, you know, more or less non stop for most of my adult life. And. And so there was a beautiful. When I went to Carnegie Mellon University, there was a. It's still there. A very beautiful, very early Freud small painting of a Greek, of a bust. Of a Greek bust from the period of the zebras, although there was no zebra in this one. And I just remember the weird, just the strange, very unusual cubism of the Greek bust. It was Picasso, but it wasn't anything like Picasso. And it's just a gorgeous painting. And so I always. And he wasn't, he wasn't back in the. This would have been in the. Well, yeah, this would have been like 1980 or 1981. He wasn't as, as hugely famous than. At least to art students.
- [66:25]
Fashion Neurosis Host
No, he didn't.
- [66:27]
John Curran
As he became. Yeah, but I loved that painting. And then I would just see the pictures and books and things and so anyway, it was just, you know, and I also knew his face from the Francis Bacon portraits, from Francis Bacon's portraits of him. And it was a little bit like. To return to a point I was making earlier, it would almost be like I was having a conversation with Clint Eastwood or something. I remember when I was a kid, I was in Vail, Colorado, because my uncle had a place there and we'd go there for the summer and I saw Clint Eastwood. It was like Clint Eastwood was standing like 80ft away with some people. And it was the first time I'd ever seen a celebrity. And it was just. I still remember it was just so. In a way it was a little bit like an experience like that. Actually. I meant to say that when I first saw that El Greco painting, it reminded me of having seen Clint Eastwood. It was a similar feeling to seeing Clint Eastwood.
- [67:51]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Yeah.
- [67:52]
John Curran
And so that's wonderful. So I'm sorry, I certainly didn't say anything smart or Anything but.
- [68:01]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Cause he would be so hyper, kind of tense and alert. He didn't talk that much, he didn't go out that much. So he must have really liked the whole thing to be there and to say those things to you. It's a nice thing to hold in my thoughts.
- [68:27]
John Curran
It certainly is for me.
- [68:29]
Fashion Neurosis Host
I can sort of just pick to him. You know, when he did talk, he would say, he would sort of go in and out of. He would sort of say something and then almost step back. Oh, it sounds so pretentious. But it was, he just, it was like his adrenaline was. He'd say a few things and then stop and look down and then come back with the rest of what was in his head.
- [68:57]
John Curran
And I do remember that.
- [69:00]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Cause you said your wife Rachel's face is always present in your images because she's your ideal of an ideal woman.
- [69:08]
John Curran
Just somehow it's not that she's, I mean with Rachel it's for some reason her face just comes out of, out of my hand. You know, it's a little bit like I always loved, I always loved Lucas Cranach because I love that woman that he makes over and over again. That little sort of pointy chinned, sharp eyed, kind of snake eyed kind of or not snake eyed, you know what I mean? But like a sort of a slit eyed blonde woman. And I guess with Rachel, you know, she has these like gigantic eyes that droop. Actually they're not like cat eyes. They're not like, you know, Audrey Hepburn eyes or they're a little bit awkward and these big llama eyelashes and heavy eyebrows and very long nose and Anyway, I don't know, I just found her easy to draw.
- [70:25]
Fashion Neurosis Host
I was thinking she's a bit like a composite of some of your favorite painters, like with her Botticelli hair and her face has some dura and then she has this amazing crannock body and then she has this some ar. Robert Crumb sexiness and attitude.
- [70:48]
John Curran
She's also kind of awkward and in a really touching way I think. And, and, and you know, I, I think mainly as Rachel has a open, open face and open. I'm interested in other other women's faces. And I, and I, and I, I, I'm in different bodies, I'm interested in different look. But there's something, I don't know, but there's always a valence of rach. There's always some kind of Rachel Ness in any kind of even or especially in the grotesque women. There's Rachel's in those too. And so I mean, I would hope that people would feel, in the images of mine that might be read as misogynist. I feel tenderness toward those figures. That seems to come across a lot, I think. I don't really feel scorn, and I hope that doesn't sound disingenuous, but, like, I feel tenderness toward them and I'm trying to express tenderness.
- [72:25]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Do you ever choose clothes for her to wear with your brilliant eye?
- [72:31]
John Curran
I always have to say, you know, listen, Rachel, I'm not gay, but I really think a wider belt would be better. You know, that's so good. I really think the. You know, and I'll do some sort of fake stylist type things, but
- [72:55]
Fashion Neurosis Host
that's so good.
- [72:56]
John Curran
And she's always. It's always been a sort of running argument. You know, she wants to wear something I don't like, but she'll wear it anyway, you know. And, you know, because I've always been a bit of a jerk about. I don't do it as much now, but I was really treating her a little bit like a doll, you know, for a while, I think. I mean, this sounds so shallow, but it gives me so much joy to look at her that, you know,
- [73:30]
Fashion Neurosis Host
it sounds fun. I mean, I can't think of anything better myself, but.
- [73:36]
John Curran
Oh, I think it's pretty irritating. Sometimes it gets really. Like.
- [73:41]
Fashion Neurosis Host
I only ever had one boyfriend in my life who was that specific about, you know, the wider belt. That's really. That's niche. That's good.
- [73:51]
John Curran
It drives me crazy. And the one thing I'm always. It drives me crazy is that
- [73:59]
ServiceNow Announcer
it
- [73:59]
John Curran
seems to be very hard to find a tailored shirt, like a tailored white shirt, like one that has a waist that just. That breaks over the hips, you know, a few inches and just does a slight. She seems to only have shirts that stop. That. Stop at, you know, just below the belly button and create a rectangle. And I just. It drives me crazy. It's like, isn't. I don't know. That's one of my peeves. And she's so sick of hearing me talk about it. I said, well, you know what would look good? She's like, how's. I said, it'd be nice if you had a white shirt that was like, you know, I don't. John, so.
- [74:51]
Fashion Neurosis Host
And if you fancy someone and don't like what they're wearing, does it kill your attraction?
- [74:57]
John Curran
It doesn't kill my attraction, but I find the white shirt problem conundrum the most frustrating.
- [75:07]
Fashion Neurosis Host
I think darts are out of fashion these days, so people make these short shirts or longer, but less fitted. Because your new paintings show women with benign and friendly expressions. And they're standing unselfconsciously but with these gigantic breasts. And they're so vast they seem to be bent, bearing down on the viewer. And the women in these paintings are older and they have that thing from the 70s of wearing something that's unwittingly revealing. Cause you talked earlier about the view of adults from children. Was this your view of adults when you were a child?
- [76:00]
John Curran
I think maybe it's not that I had that view of. I think for me it's a metaph for some reason that's a persistent image in my work. There's a drawing I made in like 1986 of that same exact woman. And I guess it was, without analyzing it to, as symbol too much. I, I, I, I, I think it was just again this idea of a misunderstand, a child's misunderstanding of sex or of, of or of sexiness or of or of women, I guess, you know, and, and also like a misunderstanding of abundance or of, you know, of wealth or of any of those kind of things. And so these were mostly instinctive things, just kind of the best ones were made from. I would make these, you know, I'd flip pages through these catalogs and something would get me about one. And so I'd make these drawings very, very quick, millions of them. And so some of them and some of them it just, so it's really not thought out. But I do think that in all the cases their actual sex, their crotch, if it's revealed, is presented as real, as, as natural and real. And so I think there's something going on there between constructed sex or imagined, imagined sex. And then the actual sex. And so much of it is just the opportunity that those crazy looking breasts give you for overlaps and formal things actually in the painting. And so
- [78:17]
Fashion Neurosis Host
how do you mean formal?
- [78:19]
John Curran
Like it'll overlap the other woman, right?
- [78:21]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Yeah.
- [78:22]
John Curran
And then her arm will come out from underneath and overlap here and you'll have this kind of again, I guess a kind of a ham fisted American version of a beautiful European arabesque or like a manneristic intertwining of figures or you know, I think it's actually in the National Gallery there's a painting by. Damn it, what's his name again? Mabooz. Oh yeah, it's an Adam and Eve where their legs are tied in a kind of square knot. It's a straight, really amazing painting. And sorry, I'm blanking out on his name. Anyhow. It's these beautiful constructions that these artists would make. And in my case, I like that it's made from a kind of a grotesque social. That it's. That it's not that it's very unnatural. And it refers to, you know, modern life or blah, blah, blah. Like, I like that it's awkward. And it kind of makes the painting, you know, ruins the chance for the painting to ever be in good taste.
- [79:51]
Fashion Neurosis Host
But there's something so tender about them. I really like them, and I.
- [79:57]
John Curran
Thank you. It's meant to be. Believe it or not, it is meant to be tender. Yeah.
- [80:03]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Well, that comes. That comes through very much. Cause when I saw the first painting of the. And there's, like. What's going on with these crazy breasts? But they reminded me of my teacher when I was 6. She had this enormous shelf. And she was so intelligent, kind and dignified. And I like the expressions on. There's this kind of camaraderie and this friendliness between the women who were. The portraits of two women together. And then these gigantic breasts, which somehow seem like. I don't know. They just seem touching and comforting and weirdly normal in a kind of outlandish way.
- [80:57]
John Curran
I think also, it's a. It's a kind of. I think one way I've thought about it in the past is like the presence of my uncontrollable eye. Like, I stared at it and it got bigger as a result of me staring at it. And I made these painting. I made a few of these paintings ten years ago of sort of fisheye, a convex mirror paintings where. Of a woman's butt, a nude woman. And her butt just becomes this gigantic circle almost filling the round canvas. And to me, it was like partly on an intellectual. On a mental level, it was kind of a parody of that essay you had to read in college of Forget her name. Laura Mulvey. The gaze. You know, the male gaze and this objectifying gaze. And I thought of it as, like. As a kind of. Like, my eye is changing what it's looking at and making it. And there's part of that in the breast. Like, I looked at it too long and they started. It was like putting a ultraviolet lamp on a marijuana plant or something. And I should also say the imagery had showed up in my work before then. But I did see something in the early 90s. I saw. It was something by the German dance. Damn it, what's her name? Beautiful, surrealistic dances. Pina Bausch.
- [82:47]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Pina Bausch.
- [82:48]
John Curran
Exactly. And it was A Pina Bausch thing. And at one point there's this very tall older woman comes striding out in a long dress with gigantic breasts, like basketball sized breasts under this long. I think it was a dark dress. And she had very severe angry face. And I remember just. That was a spectacular and terrifying image of, I don't know, a big combination of aggression and vulnerability and sort of evil and good. And I don't know, it was a really complex image. And it reminded me also of another image that stuck with me from around that time was I saw a. Do you know who Dennis Potter was?
- [83:59]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Yes, God, very much so.
- [84:01]
John Curran
It was a. I loved it kind of blew my mind when I first saw his things in 1980.
- [84:09]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Pennies from heaven.
- [84:10]
John Curran
Pennies from Heaven was the first thing, the BBC one. And I also saw the Steve Martin one, but this was called you'd're the Cream in My Coffee. And it was like a three part TV thing. And it was in his style. Anyway, this guy is his mother. He has a domineering mother. And the way she was photographed, it was terrifying. I remember just that woman in that TV show and I haven't seen it since, but it just really stuck with me. She was also wearing something dark. She was wealthy, she's in a fancy house and she's talking on the phone admonishing her grown son.
- [85:01]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Oh God.
- [85:02]
John Curran
That image also just burned something into my brain. And so that woman, the Pina Bausch lady, I don't know, there's some of that in the big breast sort of. It's also an image of authority, I guess, and a kind of, you know, I don't really think. I don't really think about the symbol so much. It just. I just, I enjoy that it, that it. I enjoy and accept that it, that it persists. Yeah, I guess.
- [85:45]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Well, I really like them. I'm looking forward to seeing them later. And thank you so much for being on Fashion Neurosis. John Curran, so great to have you here. Thank you so much.
- [85:59]
John Curran
There's something magic about lying down. I've never done it before.
- [86:04]
Fashion Neurosis Host
Yeah, no, there seems to be some. I had no idea. But it seems like there is something magical. Every now and then I lie down for a few seconds and think, oh my God, I'm just going to go somewhere else. I won't be able to come back from.
- [86:25]
John Curran
This reminds me of those New Yorker cartoons. You know, there's like a goatee shrink, you know, and there's the person's on the couch and always his diploma his, like, diploma medical, psychiatric, psychiatry school, you know, is on the. I just. I love that scenario.
- [86:45]
Fashion Neurosis Host
You know, I love those cartoons. They're fantastic. Well, thank you so much.
- [86:50]
John Curran
You're welcome. Thank you for having me here.
- [86:53]
Shopify Announcer
It.