Rashida Jones

Summary

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Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud – Episode Summary

Guest: Rashida Jones
Date: July 15, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this thoughtful, intimate episode, fashion designer Bella Freud sits down with actor, writer, and producer Rashida Jones. Their conversation explores the deep connections between fashion, identity, and family legacy, weaving through themes of maternal influence, self-presentation, personal rebellion, the layers beneath style choices, and the emotional resonance of clothing. Rashida opens up about her unique upbringing between two iconic parents, her relationship with clothing as both armor and expression, navigating loss, the politics of visibility, and how her perspectives on intimacy, activism, and creativity have evolved.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Style as Identity and Armor

• What Rashida is Wearing: Rashida arrives in a stripey suit from her friend Erdem, having swapped out her "Belafroyd" cashmere top due to the heat, and shares:

  "But it is my favorite top and I wear it all the time." (01:26)

• Formative Fashion Moments: Rashida recalls early love for suits, slacks, and buttoned-up shirts, describing herself as an "80s nerd," in contrast to her creatively stylish parents.

  "I liked, like, a sensible slack... always a button down shirt, button to the top." (06:53) "I felt like my parents were the stylish ones and I was the sort of brainy one in opposition to them." (06:53)

• Fashion as Empowerment: Her first empowering garment—Wonder Woman Underoos—as a way to feel both happy and powerful as a child.

  “Just feeling so cool and empowered, you know.” (10:57)

2. Motherhood, Maternal Influence & Legacy

• Peggy Lipton’s Impact: Rashida’s deep bond with her mother shaped her sensitivity and empathy.

  "My mom was an angel. She was really dialed into something deeper than just being here on this planet. She was a seeker..." (02:00)

• Searching for Maternal Qualities in Others: Both Bella and Rashida describe seeking nurturing qualities in relationships—sometimes even with men.

  Bella: "I've noticed that I look for mother figures in men as well." (04:39) Rashida: "Yeah. Like, what qualities in a man have you found that are maternal?" (04:50)

• Navigating Loss: The two connect over the emotional complexities of losing their mothers, and the longing for maternal comfort.

3. Fashion Psychology & Rebellion

• Academic Rebellion: Rashida notes her form of rebellion as intellectual and controlled.

  "My rebellion as a child of artistic people was being academic...control my environment, which we all know is not real." (14:01, 14:29)

• Self-Protection Through Clothing: Buttoned collars, layering, and "masculine coated dressing" used as methods of directing attention to intellect rather than body.

  Bella: “Maybe my best feature's my brain. So I want a collar to kind of emphasize that, Point to it.” (09:56) Rashida: “I once had a kind of creepy older employer ask me, why do you always wear button down shirts and button them all the way to the top? And I just said: style. Style." (10:21)

4. Humor as Survival and Expression

• Early Comedy Instincts: Rashida discusses comedy as both a language and a mode of survival, recalling SNL and her famous Church Lady impression.

  "It felt like a language I understood." (17:04) "I stopped the party so I could do my imitation of the church lady..." (17:04-18:19)

5. On Nakedness, Vulnerability, and the Body

• Comfort in Clothing vs. Nakedness: Rashida feels unexpressive through nakedness, preferring to keep a sense of privacy and indirect sensuality.

  "I don't identify with my body and certainly not my naked body. It's not my--it's not how I express myself." (29:53) “There’s been times...when everybody had to do that. But I still, I don’t think it would make me any more naked. Wanna be any more naked.” (29:53)

• Artifice and Graduality: Both discuss liking artful ways of being suggestive—sheer dresses, short dresses, but with restraint.

  "Sometimes it’s a special treat for myself to show my decolletage...I’ve covered it up my entire life, it looks pretty good." (34:58)

6. Family, Legacy, and Artistic Heritage

• Parental Influence and Achievement: Rashida frankly confronts the challenge and pressure of having legendary parents and carving her own path.

  “When you have somebody in your house who shifts culture seismically, it’s really hard...I picked something different to sort of have something that was my own.” (46:08)

• The Quincy Jones Documentary: Making the film as a complex love letter, capturing her father’s survival and creative resilience.

  "It took me six years to make that...I had that feeling, like, oh, it was like a gut punch. Like, I don't want to, but I have to do this." (49:12)

7. Creativity, Collaboration & Femininity

• Working with Sofia Coppola: Rashida reflects on the "kindred spirit" she found with Sofia, especially their shared backgrounds, introversion, and subversive approaches to femininity.

  "She has this way of sort of like, making femininity so punk rock." (44:03) “She allows for the kind of quietude of, like, feminine thought on screen.” (44:43)

8. Activism, Empathy, & Listening

• On Black Lives Matter and Social Division: Rashida stresses the importance of empathetic listening, even across political divides.

  “Empathy, empathy, empathy, empathy, we have to see ourselves and others and we have to allow others to see themselves in us, because that’s why we’re here together...” (36:25) “My dad...he thought everybody was important...make decisions based on love and not fear.” (38:20–39:47)

9. Intimacy, Fantasy, and Risk

• 'The Invite' and Esther Perel: Collaboration with famed sex therapist Esther Perel on a film about fantasy and secrets in relationships.

  “Every single thing that comes out of her mouth, you just like, oh. Hits so hard...she finds a way to crystallize the...essence of relationship.” (53:46)

• Risk in Fashion & Attraction: Masculine dressing as her own version of “risk,” and how style can layer intrigue—deliberately requiring effort to get to know her.

  “Risk to me is so psychological...I like the tension, which is why I think I’m very into suiting. But I like the tension of...dressing masculine.” (56:54) “Any interesting person, there's layers, and then you kind of...can echo that with what you wear.” (58:04)

10. Love, Partners, and Shared Style

• Relationships and Clothing: How attraction can be affected by someone’s wardrobe; Rashida and her partner, Ezra Koenig, support and share style choices.

  “If a guy’s wearing a certain kind of shoes, like, I can't kiss him. I can’t do it.” (58:39) "He’s very supportive of my fashion…and we have a shared color palette.” (61:38)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Her Mother:

  "She was very loving, very affectionate, very empathetic, very sensitive and very deep person." – Rashida Jones (02:00)

• On Seeking Certainty:

  "Certainty is prohibitive...It's a fool's errand, and it's prohibitive because it's not, you know, at this point. It's not the point. The point is to accept the things you cannot change." – Rashida Jones (14:29)

• On Empathy in Activism:

  “We have to see our humanity in each other. I know that sounds so cliche, but the older I get, I feel like my job is to listen deeply...” – Rashida Jones (36:25)

• On Working with Esther Perel:

  "Every single thing that comes out of her mouth, you just like, oh. Hits so hard." – Rashida Jones (53:46)

• On Style and Seduction:

  "You can, like, echo that with what you wear...you have to get to know me to really, like, know me. You know, you have to, like, work a little bit..." – Rashida Jones (58:04)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Introductions and Outfits: 00:38 – 01:32
• Mothers and Maternal Influence: 01:32 – 05:41
• Parental Style and Early Fashion Identity: 06:23 – 10:21
• Empowering Early Fashion: 10:40 – 11:52
• Rebellion & Control: 14:01 – 16:44
• Comedy and Performance: 16:44 – 18:41
• Writing & 'Frenemy of the State': 19:17 – 23:10
• On the Muppets & Kermit: 24:03 – 26:20
• Body, Nakedness and Artifice: 29:53 – 34:58
• Activism, Coates & Empathy: 35:16 – 39:53
• Sofia Coppola, Femininity & Collaboration: 39:53 – 44:45
• Heritage & Self-Definition: 45:51 – 48:42
• The Quincy Jones Documentary: 48:42 – 51:37
• Creativity, Relationships & The Invite: 52:56 – 56:54
• Fashion, Risk & Attraction: 56:54 – 61:04
• Shared Style with Ezra Koenig: 61:07 – 62:32
• Reflections & Goodbye: 62:49 – 63:08

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a rich, revealing conversation about the inner and outer selves we create through style—how clothing both protects and exposes us, how generational legacy shapes and complicates identity, and how self-acceptance, risk, and humor transform the simple act of getting dressed into an act of communication, resistance, and love. Rashida Jones is candid, articulate, and warm, offering wisdom with both gravity and wit, in a conversation that—true to the podcast’s thesis—makes fashion a powerful lens for life’s complexities.

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Transcript

[Bella Freud]

If you sit in the sun, you may just get burned, but some people are willing to take that chance.

[Rashida Jones]

There is this certain degree of nihilism of like, oh, well, the world is bad anyway. Why wouldn't I just also get a tan? Tan maxing. That's this week on Explain It To Me. Find new episodes wherever you get your podcasts.

[Bella Freud]

Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. Rashida Jones.

[Rashida Jones]

Thank you. Happy to be here. Nervous?

[Bella Freud]

Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?

[Rashida Jones]

Well, I am wearing a kind of suit, stripey suit, by a wonderful designer who's also my friend named Erdem.

[Bella Freud]

Erdem. I love Erdem.

[Rashida Jones]

I was in my Belafroyd cashmere top, but it's really hot out and

[Charlie Harding]

I

[Rashida Jones]

had to prioritize that. But that is. It is my favorite top and I wear it all the time.

[Bella Freud]

Thank you. You're an award winning actor, producer and writer. You're also the daughter of the legendary Quincy Jones, who was a mentor and collaborator to countless artists including Michael Jackson and Ray Charles. But it's your mother, the actress Peggy Lipton, who died in 2019, who started, seems to have been your compass. And I wondered what were her reassuring qualities?

[Rashida Jones]

Oh, my mom was an angel. She's a very sensitive person. She was really dialed into something deeper than just being here on this planet. She was a seeker and she got famous really young. She was on TV when she was 19, on the mod Squad. And it just all happened so fast. She was really famous, really fast. Cause there were just three TV networks in the States and so you're watching that show if you're watching tv. So everybody knew who she was and she kind of, she just, you know, exploded onto the scene. She was so beautiful and she had such cool style and it was a lot for her. And I think she decided kind of quickly that that wasn't the path she wanted for her life because she wanted something else. She wanted something deeper. So I think that part of my mom was extremely comforting for me. She was very loving, very affectionate, very empathetic, very sensitive and very deep person.

[Bella Freud]

God, how lovely. Especially my mother died too, and. But I wasn't connected to her in the way you describe and it's a different feeling. I, you know, it's something that I love to hear about and I, I know there was something there between my mother and I, but it didn't get expressed very often. So I feel like I can kind of connect to that via other people's Closeness and remember the things that were possible between my mom and myself. And.

[Rashida Jones]

Yeah, I mean, I do think moms and daughters, always complicated. Always as much love is there. And I'm with you because I don't have a mom now. I'm always sort of searching for this particular type of relationship, you know, female relationship, that is that comfort, that very comforting and protective person. So I definitely have that in my life to. To make up for what I don't have anymore.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, I've noticed that I look for mother figures in men as well.

[Rashida Jones]

Interesting.

[Bella Freud]

And they're really good mother figures sometimes.

[Rashida Jones]

Yeah. Like, what qualities in a man have you found that are maternal?

[Bella Freud]

Well, they're sort of nurture and attentive attention to, well, being. That was something very lacking. I mean, in my era of upbringing. I don't know if people paid such attention to that. You know, making sure someone's getting from A to B and even things like cooking. I don't cook. And so sometimes if my man is a cook, I'll feel like it's sort of a maternal thing.

[Rashida Jones]

It is very nurturing.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Rashida Jones]

Food. That's so nice. I love thinking about men embodying those qualities because, you know, for so many reasons.

[Bella Freud]

But

[Rashida Jones]

my partner and I made this movie about the swim teacher, and he was raised with just a mom and not a dad and four sisters or something, and he's a mom in the pool. That's why he's such a good teacher, you know, that's how he learned how to be a parent and a teacher is from his mom.

[Bella Freud]

I just love that brilliant movie. I mean, it's completely spellbinding. I love that it was nominated for an Oscar as well.

[Rashida Jones]

It was shortlisted.

[Bella Freud]

Right.

[Rashida Jones]

So it was like the. Before the five. We didn't make the five, but we made the 15.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, that's really something. And your. Your mother, as you described, was incredibly beautiful and the epitome of 70s glamour and purity. And your dad was also incredibly beautiful. And both of them had this great style. And I wondered whose dressing influenced you the most?

[Rashida Jones]

Well, I. I have a lot of fashion psychology to work out here today, Bella, so I hope you're ready. I. My parents were so cool and they had such an innate sense of style. And I know everybody says this, but I mean it. I was like a bit of a nerd. Like an 80s nerd. Not like a cool nerd, like a nerd. Like, I had a desktop computer before everybody else and, like a modem, and I loved little suits. Like, I liked to be. I Liked, like a sensible slack. Do they have the word slack in the uk? Yeah, yeah, I liked a sensible slack and like a little three piece suit. I liked a bolero tie, always, always a button down shirt, button to the top. I grew up wearing a uniform, but I think I always, I felt like my parents were the stylish ones and I was the sort of brainy one in opposition to them. So I don't know if I've ever felt stylish growing up, but I had a very strong sense of what I wanted to wear. And then I guess as I got older I was lucky because I did have such stylish parents that I could realize my wishes of, you know, suits and blazers and button downs and kind of, you know, masculine coated dressing in a way that was elegant because they, because they gave me that, that gave that to me, you know, so maybe, maybe closer to. I don't know. I'm definitely somewhere in the middle. My mom was very kind of ethereal, cool. You know, she had a lot of like when she was young, Ozzie Clark and you know, she was like a child. She was a hippie. She lived in LA from the time she was 19. You know, you know, the people she kind of ran around with was very sort of like the roots of boho chic.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Rashida Jones]

And my dad was just cool, just the coolest and could kind of pull off anything and did anything from like dashikis to missoni to. He loved like Chinese tailoring and you know, like Chinese silk. He had a lot of custom suits. He loved a double collar.

[Bella Freud]

What's a double collar?

[Rashida Jones]

Like he like, he'd wear a shirt over a shirt. Like two collared shirts.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Rashida Jones]

So cool. With like a chain, you know, so I'm somewhere in the middle and then I'm also my own thing, I guess.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. I identify a lot with your button to the neck. I, I feel.

[Rashida Jones]

You feel seen.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, I feel seen and I, I find there's a lot of like, you know, what's your best feature? And I feel like, well maybe my best feature's my brain. So I want a collar to kind of emphasize that, Point to it.

[Rashida Jones]

Yeah.

[Bella Freud]

And identify with that.

[Rashida Jones]

I once had a kind of creepy older employer ask me, why do you always wear button down shirts and button them all the way to the top? And I just said style. Style.

[Bella Freud]

That's a very good response because what was the first garment that changed the way you felt about yourself and what age were you when you noticed the connection between what you were wearing and what it gave you.

[Rashida Jones]

I had this brand called Underoos. I don't think they have them in the uk, but they were like, they were like superhero undergarments. I had a Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman Underoos. And I would put that on and just feel so happy. I was probably like five, like totally synthetic material, super cheap, but like I can remember the red and the gold and the like trompe l' oeil, like belt, like the Wonder Woman gold belt over the red suit. It was like a two piece suit. Just feeling so cool and empowered, you know.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, they're very empowering, this kind of total look.

[Rashida Jones]

Yeah. Like today, my under roots,

[Bella Freud]

When your parents divorced, your older sister Kidada went to live with your father and you left with your mother. And how are your feelings of conflicting loyalty

[Rashida Jones]

so funny? I was just talking about this the other day. I don't think I think that much about that time. I would go spend weekends with my dad. I felt very protective of my mom. You know, I think maybe that's just typical for either a younger sibling or a daughter. My sister had like a big. She was a teenager and she had a big life and you know, she was like super cool and had lots of friends and would have a bunch of friends over to my dad's house and I was with my mom and my mom went back to work when my parents separated for the first time in a long time. So that was new. But yeah, I think I felt like I felt protective of her. I wanted to make sure she was okay, you know, and that she knew I was with her. I was a very well behaved, for the most part, teenager. Like I didn't get grounded, I did my homework. I had a pretty wholesome, you know, after school situation. I was on the dance squad, I was in the math club, I was in student government. And I would do my homework, you know, and dance with my friends and they'd come over and eat snacks and we'd watch tv. So, you know, I think she probably really liked that stability and I think I. I probably liked feeling useful in that way to her.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. Cause you described your rebellion as a child of artistic people as being academic. And you said, I like this idea of being able to control my environment. And the easiest way to do that is you work on something and then you get a grade. And I wondered if you do use your intellect to create certainty where maybe there isn't much certainty.

[Rashida Jones]

Yes, yes, I absolutely I did. And I do. And it's something I'm at this point in my life trying to move away from. Because I think what it provided for me was a sense of control that I could control my environment, which we all know is not real. We don't have control of anything except how we react to things and how we feel emotionally to things. So I think that served a purpose. It did me very well. It did get me, you know, this sort of great life and, you know, friends in college and people had things in common with me intellectually. But I now feel like certainty is prohibitive. Like this. This. The need that. This seeking out certainty is. It's a fool's errand, and it's prohibitive because it's not, you know, at this point. It's not the point. The point is to accept the things you cannot change.

[Bella Freud]

It's true. My Pilates teacher was telling me about a book that's all about the relationship between anxiety and certainty and why people think that, you know, certainty will quell anxiety. But, of course, as there isn't really

[Rashida Jones]

any certainty much, I'm sure seeking certainty creates more anxiety.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, I would have.

[Rashida Jones]

Because you're under the delusion that you can somehow control something, and then you trick yourself into thinking something you're doing is changing circumstance. And then when it doesn't change circumstance, then it's your whole kind of, you know, structure. The rule of being alive is brought into question, which is existential.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Rashida Jones]

Yeah. There's no control. There's no control.

[Bella Freud]

You starred in the political satire Mockumentary of Parks and Recreation, which ran for seven seasons and never dates. And you have a bewitching way of being incredibly deadpan and funny while often berating someone. And I wondered, when did you first know that you were funny?

[Rashida Jones]

So funny. I was just talking to a friend of mine who. She doesn't think she's funny or caustic or witty. She was like, I want to learn how to be that way. How do I do that? And she was like, how did you do that? And I was just thinking about the amount of times it felt like a source of survival for me, starting from a very early age. But I was obsessed with Saturday Night Live and Second City TV and sketch comedy and comedy films. Like, I loved Vacation and Airplane, and it felt like a language I understood. And so it's like I learned language. And I remember being 13 and having a birthday party, a dance party, and I stopped the party so I could do my imitation of the church lady, which was this Dana Carvey character on Saturday Night Live. And I think it was only funny to me, but I really wanted to do it at my birthday, so.

[Ested Herndon]

Great.

[Bella Freud]

And you did it.

[Rashida Jones]

I did it. And I had the DJ put on, like there's a little reverb effect when she says her thing is. Who do you think is possessing you? Oh, I don't know, Satan. And this has a little bit of an echo. And I'm sure my friends who loved me, supported me, but I'm not sure it was that funny.

[Bella Freud]

It sounds really funny. It sounds great. I think it's such an amazing thing to have actually done rather than just thought it and that you did it right. And that's. I remember fantasizing about those moments, but I didn't do them. It's taken me my whole life to become more visible.

[Rashida Jones]

Well, I have a lot of those too. I mean, there's things that I just, you know, of course wanted to do and didn't do. But I guess I had a captive audience. Cause it was my birthday.

[Bella Freud]

No, you didn't.

[Rashida Jones]

You had no choice.

[Bella Freud]

That's wonderful. And you're brilliant at it. So you must have known that you had this ability somewhere and you actually took the first action, which is everything. And I found these brilliant graphic fanzines on ebay, which you wrote called Frenemy of the State about a socialite recruited by the CIA. I've got one here. In fact, I've got loads now because I love reading comics. I also learnt all my Freudian analysis history from this comic book. And I think there's a great way of learning things that are kind of dense or kind of daunting through other mediums. But I wondered why it was so your character was a socialite who'd been recruited by the CIA and I wondered why you'd chosen the CIA.

[Rashida Jones]

Well, it sort of fits into my kind of life narrative. I grew up in LA and there's a lot of sort of, You know, LA is a city of dreams and fantasies and there's a lot of people there who their job is to socialize and to look good. And I started thinking. And actually I knew this girl who. She was really adept at like hacking her boyfriend or ex boyfriend's email. And she got in trouble, she got arrested. I was like, that's so cool that she had this like, skill because her passion was such that she learned how to do this thing that, you know, just to get the information she wanted. So I started like thinking about, wouldn't it be funny? It's a perfect cover. Like a girl who is at every party in every country, every launch, every whatever. Champagne. You know, I don't know. Soiree is the perfect cover for somebody to be recruited by a government agency. And if the girl, like the character in the graphic novel is, she's kind of boy crazy and she's spying on her boyfriend and her hurt causes her to have this great skill set, which she probably had anyway, but it makes her. It makes her an even more perfect person who's willing to kind of take the risk, break some laws to get the information she wants. And they kind of hold this information over her head as like almost blackmail to make her have to join the CIA. But there's also like. I mean, I think modern times that feeling has kind of changed. But the CIA kind of held this. You know, there's a sort of romantic version of caa, which we know now is not true.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. I suppose it's the romantic notion of like here people used to be recruited at. They probably still are, Cambridge and everything.

[Rashida Jones]

Or MI6.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. Yeah. And then all these kind of desperate, alcoholic ex public schoolboys with just these kind of withered moral code of. Yeah. Resignation.

[Rashida Jones]

It's not a great life.

[Bella Freud]

No.

[Rashida Jones]

I think. I don't know, but I think people who are. Who say yes to work for government agency, I think it's pretty grim. It self selects for somebody who's maybe doesn't really fully want to be. To have their own personal life. But I remember doing research and learning that most secrets are told during pillow talk, which is why they love to set a honey trap.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Rashida Jones]

Which makes sense. You're vulnerable.

[Bella Freud]

Like the Jackal, the brilliant scene with the government minister and.

[Rashida Jones]

Yeah.

[Bella Freud]

Who is it? I can't remember the actress. But I watched it again recently. It was so good.

[Rashida Jones]

The show, the movie.

[Bella Freud]

The original movie.

[Rashida Jones]

I love that movie. The Day of the Jackal. So good.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. Cause you also made a film with the Muppets where you get to interact with Kermit, who's everyone's secret crush. Yeah. I wonder, did you kind of fall in love? Is it possible to fall in love or become emotionally involved with a puppet? It seemed infinitely possible watching.

[Rashida Jones]

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, first of all, yes. Very quickly you forget that these brilliant puppet performers are actually manning the puppet. So there were a lot of times in between takes where I would just have full conversations with Kermit, you know, like, he was real.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Rashida Jones]

And I really liked him. And Steve, who was the puppet performer, I mean, he's great. He clearly infused this little felt green guy with all this personality and great rapport. But yeah, I once. It never got made. But Will and I, we wrote a TV show about like puppets and. Yeah. This feeling like you could maybe fall in love with a puppet. Yeah, yeah.

[Bella Freud]

Cause Kermit, he's. I mean, talking about maternal figure men, he's. You could just imagine him taking care of you and being a great lover and then bringing you orange juice in bed.

[Rashida Jones]

You fella, you've really, really, really thought about this. I mean, listen, you're gonna have to fight Miss Piggy. That much I know.

[Bella Freud]

Gosh, I would lose. No one could win against her, so. Yes, but you're right.

[Rashida Jones]

He's sort of like the calm headed caretaker. Cause Piggy's just kind of doing her thing and he's like. He is very. But I guess we could say that's also. It should be paternal

[Bella Freud]

to do.

[Rashida Jones]

To do that. Yeah, it should be paternal. You know, that should be. This sort of like. I don't know, taking care of stuff can be maternal and paternal. Yeah, you know.

[Bella Freud]

No, it is. My dad was a great cook.

[Rashida Jones]

Oh, was he? God, that just doesn't feel fair. He's. How can you be that good at two things?

[Bella Freud]

He had some other flaws, but.

[Rashida Jones]

Well, don't we all? Don't we all?

[Nicole Phelps]

Hi, I'm Nicole Phelps, global fashion news and features director at Vogue and co host of the Run through podcast. Each week on the show, our listeners get an all access pass into the world of Vogue. On Tuesdays, join me as I interview influential designers like Calvin Klein, Rachel Scott and Simone Bellotti. On Thursdays, join Club Chloe Mel, head of editorial content at Vogue US and Choma Nadi, British Vogue's head of editorial content as they explore fashion through the lens of culture with guests like Doja Cat and Margot Robbie. Listen and watch the Run through with Vogue wherever you get your podcasts and Vogue's YouTube channel.

[Charlie Harding]

It all started with Call Me maybe.

[Nate Sloan]

Over 10 years ago, we created Switched On Pop to listen closer, uncovering the song craft behind even the glossiest of pop hits.

[Charlie Harding]

Since then, we've released almost 500 episodes. We've defined the sounds of our modern soundtrac and interviewed hundreds of musicians and music insiders, including the singer of Call Me maybe herself, Carly Rae Jepsen.

[Nate Sloan]

I'm musicologist Nate Sloan.

[Charlie Harding]

And I'm songwriter Charlie harding.

[Nate Sloan]

And on July 14, switched on pop is embarking on a new chapter. We're stepping out from behind our microphones and in front of the camera to stream our podcast on Netflix.

[Charlie Harding]

Now, you'll still be able to listen to the show anywhere. You get podcasts but now you'll be able to watch us each week, breaking down the sounds of the moment, digging into musical minutiae with your favorite artists and. And offering questionable dad jokes.

[Nate Sloan]

As always, we're kicking off our Netflix debut with a four part series on the art of the song, with help from artists, producers, and songwriters like Aaron Dessner, Audrey Hobert, Trevor Horne, Cypress Hill and Tayla Parks.

[Charlie Harding]

Stream Switched On, Pop on Netflix, and anywhere you get podcasts every Tuesday starting on July 14th.

[Rashida Jones]

What is happening? What am I seeing? This is not real.

[Ested Herndon]

Like, what is that?

[Steve]

Unexplainable. The show about everything we don't know is coming to Netflix.

[Ested Herndon]

Come on, you're not serious, right?

[Charlie Harding]

It's real.

[Rashida Jones]

Oh, my gosh, I'm freaking out.

[Steve]

We'll still be getting into all the huge questions that can take over your life.

[Rashida Jones]

Are there different ways that humans might be dead?

[Nate Sloan]

Do we live inside of an enormous black hole?

[Rashida Jones]

Why do we cry?

[Ested Herndon]

What if I eat it?

[Steve]

But now we're gonna be able to show you all sorts of things we never could before.

[Rashida Jones]

You really have no choice but to

[Ested Herndon]

just let your mind go wild.

[Steve]

Unexplainable is gonna have new video episodes every Monday on Netflix, with new audio episodes still dropping every Monday and Wednesday.

[Rashida Jones]

What came first, the chicken or the egg? Everybody asked if the chicken or the egg came first, first, or second? The egg or the chicken? Nobody knows what was there in the beginning? What came first?

[Steve]

Unexplainable, a podcast from Vox, now on Netflix.

[Bella Freud]

And you featured in a Calvin Klein underwear ad with Kirsten Dunst, directed by Sofia Coppola. And you dress in a charming, slightly boyish way that's more suggestive than Avert. And I wondered, how do you feel about being naked?

[Rashida Jones]

Mm, good question. I am definitely not one of those people, as maybe you can tell by my outfit. Like you, I'm actually. Maybe they're not mutually exclusive, but I don't identify with my body and certainly not my naked body. It's not my. It's not how I express myself. I'm very, very in awe of people who can and do. I think it's so cool to just be so comfortable with your body. I, you know, Sophia and I had a lot of conversations about that before that shoot because I obviously trust her. Eye trained on. Femininity is a very different thing than just an underwear ad, which is why I was happy to do it, because I knew she would make me feel beautiful in a way I would want to feel beautiful. Like, not in a sort of, like, male gazy. Sort of way. But yeah, I don't. It's not by fave. I'm gonna be honest. And there's been times in my life where I've gotten really in shape. I did remember doing one shoot in like a bra and underwear around the time when everybody was doing, when everybody had to do that. Do people still have to do that? Maybe they do, I don't know. But I still kind of like, I still look back and think like did not feel like me. But you know, I have a lot of women who say to me like, this is today is the best you're gonna look for the rest of your life. So enjoy it. And so some part of me thinks like I think about being 25 and feeling self conscious about my body and how different that body is from my body today. But I still, I don't think it would make me any more naked. Wanna be any more naked. What about you?

[Bella Freud]

Well, I was gonna ask, do you have like artifices to do with nakedness? Cause I know I have kind of things I wear that make me more naked. Cause I find that sort of 70s nakedness where you're just like striding around with nothing on. I just couldn't, you know, it just makes me feel so cringey at the thought. But now I'm older, I'm more into it than I ever was when I was younger. And I even once asked, got someone to take a photograph of me naked. Because I thought when I was 25, I thought when I'm my age now I will look back and think what was all this hatred of body stuff?

[Rashida Jones]

Right.

[Bella Freud]

So I forced myself to do it. And once I was naked, I sort of barely noticed. And I've got the picture in my bedroom and I'm glad I did it. But it's this exacting thing and I wondered what are your skills to do with, you know, how do you get naked without being naked?

[Rashida Jones]

Good question. Well, first of all, that's so cool you did that. That's a photograph I would kind of like to be painted naked. That feels. I mean, I love nudes so much. Yeah, I love your dad's nudes. So I just love nudes. They're so cool and interesting and the human body is so, you know, varied and then also not. I took a, I recently took a figure drawing class and you know, it was like an eight hour class where you just have a, you know, naked. This beautiful 75 year old naked woman who just kind of fell asleep, you know, nodded off for eight hours in front of us. And it was so interesting. It like wasn't long enough, you know. Loved it. So I would love to be a part of that, Just that discipline, you know, and be captured in that way. But I guess these days I love, I do love like, I do like a sheer dress if you're wearing. I kind of, I always like, like a boy short and a bra with like a very sheer dress over it. I think that's very elegant. Love that. And I've never minded my legs. There's other parts of my body I don't like, so I'm happy to wear a very, very short dress. And I also really like, because I don't really expose this very often. Sometimes it's a special treat for myself to show my decolletage.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Rashida Jones]

And because I've covered it up my entire life, it looks pretty good.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Rashida Jones]

Like, it's not. I don't have sun damage there. That's sort of the one benefit of being this chaste for this long. Now I get to show the world once in a while.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. And you've been a campaigning voice in the Black Lives Matter movement in the us And I remember this talk by Ta Nehisi Coates where he outlined some of his experience of prejudice and growing up as a black man. When people want to do something positive about existing discrimination, what do you reply?

[Rashida Jones]

Oh, I love Ta Nehisi Coates so much.

[Bella Freud]

He's amazing.

[Rashida Jones]

What a gorgeous voice. What a raw, eloquent, unafraid. And like he just distills the essence of being alive, you know, and somehow manages to balance poetry and politic at the same time. I mean, he's just, what a singular voice we're so lucky to have. He's like a once in a generation voice. I mean, I don't know, I could never reply like he could, but,

[Bella Freud]

you

[Rashida Jones]

know, the humanity is steeped in inequality, injustice, dehumanization. And we're living in a funny time where, you know, we're very divided and people feel fervor around their politics and that. I love, I love that people feel so strongly. But I think I'm concerned about the lack of humanity within that belief because empathy, empathy, empathy, empathy, we have to see ourselves and others and we have to allow others to see themselves in us because that's why we're here together. That's why we're not living in a weird VR fantasy, because we must work it out together here in the same place. There's too many of us to be this divided, this siloed and this on other sides. We have to see our humanity in each other. I know that sounds so cliche, but the older I get, I feel like my job is to listen deeply and to pick something out of what somebody says, even if I disagree with them to my core and see either their hurt, their pain, or the thing we have in common. That's my job.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Rashida Jones]

Has to be. You know, it has to be. Because if not violence, war, you know, we turn on each other.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Rashida Jones]

We hurt each other.

[Bella Freud]

That's so important. It's such a discipline. And it does give results as well, you know, it really does.

[Rashida Jones]

Yeah. And also, like, not to be too woo woo, but I do find that the healing nature of having a conversation with another person, especially an unexpected person, that doesn't come from the same background as you. You don't expect to have anything in common that is like, that reverberates like that energetically, can travel outwards. I know that's so. Look, I'm from California, okay? I. This is part of who I am. No, but I. I truly believe that. I just think. I believe that it's just. It has to be, because everything else is, you know, my dad. My dad was very much one of those people. He's such a connector. He would talk to anybody and for hours, and he didn't believe. And, you know, he wasn't like, he didn't reserve his energy for the most important people. He thought everybody was important. And so many people still come up to me and say, I had the best night. I met your dad and we talked for two hours. And he was just the greatest guy. And he asked me so many questions about myself and like, that's our job. Like, that's how we heal each other, is to listen, you know, like, his whole thing was make decisions based on love and not fear. And that's with each other too. Like, we can't fear each other. We have to see where we can relate. That's our job.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, it's essential.

[Rashida Jones]

Yeah, it's essential.

[Bella Freud]

You starred alongside Bill Murray in the Sofia Coppola movie that she directed, on the Rocks. And you and Sofia Coppola are a dream union. And you both seem to possess this kind of introverted brilliance. Did you feel a kindred spirit in her?

[Rashida Jones]

I do. I always have with Sophia. We've known each other a long time. We met. I was in my 20s and I was in an acting workshop with my teacher, Greta Secat, and Sophia was workshopping her first script, Lawson translation. And she came to class to kind of like, use the actors to. To work on her script. And I was very lucky. I got to play that part for, like, a month in class. And we did a lot of, like, dream work around that character. And so I would dream and she would dream, then we'd share our dreams and put it into the. Into the character and kind of improv and work on it anyway. Yeah, I just always really liked her. She's such a personable person. You know, she's just got zero veneer, and she's so. She's just always been so lovely. And we have, in some ways, kind of similar upbringing, and our dads were friends.

[Bella Freud]

Really?

[Rashida Jones]

Yeah, they were friends. And actually, I went. Before I met her, I went to. I was with my dad, and he took me to Francis's Vineyard for the weekend. It was the weekend of the LA riots, and there was a. There was a curfew. And he was like, come with me. I'm gonna go to my friend's house, so come with me. So I spent the weekend with them. It was great.

[Bella Freud]

Oh, God, how wonderful.

[Rashida Jones]

I was so cool. And he was so nice to me, too. Like, you know, teens, whatever. It's always. I feel like I had parents like this, too, where they treated kids in a way like they were deep souls and, like, young bodies. Like, they just spoke to them with respect and had real conversations with them. And he was like that with me. He was very, very lovely and very respectful. So, yeah, we always had this nice kind of like, parallel life thing in common. And certainly in the movie, Bill plays my father, and he's this, like, worldly, charismatic, loves women, loves life kind of guy, which I think we both could relate to strongly.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, because both you and Sofia Coppola, you have. You're very much the object of Girls fandom, as, I mean, obviously men as well. But all girls love you both. And you represent glamour and kind of subtlety and beauty and this. You make things. You know, you're both so brilliantly creative and original. And so the idea of you together was just like, oh, my God, this is thrilling. This is as good as it gets.

[Rashida Jones]

I think we probably. I mean, we both loved our moms so much, and our moms, I think, were incredibly supportive of our careers. And I think we. But we share this sort of, like, real, like, deep love for women and to be a woman and all the kind of great and, you know, kind of eye rolly things that go along with that. Yeah. Like, and I really. I really admire Sophia because she has this way of sort of like, Making femininity so punk rock.

[Nicole Phelps]

She does.

[Bella Freud]

That's so true.

[Rashida Jones]

So cool.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Rashida Jones]

And also, like, she's got this sort of, like, sad girl. Sad girl complexity is kind of what she brings to her movies. You know, she loves to linger on, like a. On a. On a woman contemplating her life. And so there's a real interiority in the things that she does, which, you know, I don't think we really saw before her. She's like, she really stands for this thing that, like, is really hard to do, which is, like, she allows for the kind of quietude of, like, feminine thought on screen.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Rashida Jones]

So cool.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. She's a master at that.

[Rashida Jones]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ested Herndon]

Is Kamala Harris running for president again?

[Rashida Jones]

Listen, I might, I might.

[Ested Herndon]

I'm thinking about it, but does anybody want that?

[Rashida Jones]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so.

[Ested Herndon]

Well, I don't see why not. Absolutely. I think Kamala Harris will run for president again. I don't think there'll never be a woman president in the United States. Now, wait, wait, wait. You can't just walk away on that. Tell us why. I know it's still early to talk about 2028, but as we build to our post Trump future, it seems to be a big question about the Democratic Party. Kamala Harris leads all of the presidential polling. So does this mean that the person who led the ticket in 2024 is going to lead the party again in 2028? The campaign needs to be called Bye Bye Biden.

[Bella Freud]

It's just a tainted brand.

[Ested Herndon]

Do you think from a donor community largely that there's any appetite for a Harris return?

[Bella Freud]

I don't.

[Ested Herndon]

I'm Ested Herndon and this is America. Actually, catch us Every Saturday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast because

[Bella Freud]

you're the intelligent and beautiful daughter of a superstar father, and envy is a difficult thing to be on the receiving end. And do you think your high achieving academic approach to your art is a way of handling what comes with heritage?

[Rashida Jones]

Yeah. Yeah, I think I picked something different. Not ultimately, but I picked something different to sort of have something that was my own. And I, you know, I think about it a lot because as supportive as my dad, he was so supportive. He always told me, like, pick two things to be good at, which I thought was really good advice. But he could say all those things to me. He could support me as much as he wanted to. But when you have somebody in your house who shifts culture seismically, it's really hard to not take that in and feel like a failure if you don't achieve anything. Close to that. So I think, yeah, I think having some kind of, like, academic spin was my way of being like, oh, yeah. But I'm not even. I'm not even trying for that. But, you know, and the truth is, obviously, I. You know, now I'm very lucky. I get to write and have, like, a very even career between writing and producing and directing and acting. But, you know, yeah, I would be lying if I said that I don't think of my dad's accomplishments and, like, sometimes want to just shrink at the idea that, you know, whatever it is I. Whatever my legacy is, whatever it is I accomplish, like, I just know it's not gonna be that, because I also know what the sacrifice was for him. I mean, he's, you know, almost died so many times. Like, I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that. I value my alone time. I value my inner life, and I value the kind of balance between feeling good in my own life and feeling good about what I put out into the world. And not to say, obviously, my dad had a destiny. He was a bullet train. He had to do what he did.

[Nate Sloan]

He.

[Rashida Jones]

At great expense. And luckily, you know, he had such a long life, and we got the other side of him where he just got to be a family man and be with us. And he had no regrets, because, look, he had to do that. He, like, you know, he healed the world in a lot of ways with what he gave to us. So I know he had no regrets. But for me, I think I'm always looking for a bit more balance, you know?

[Bella Freud]

Cause you made this wonderful documentary about him in 2018, when he was also creating the National Museum for African American History and Culture. And it was like a race against time during the documentary. And because of him being intermittent, at one point, he's rushed to hospital. And I wondered, is that your love letter to your father with the making that film?

[Rashida Jones]

Yeah, definitely. It took me six years to make that.

[Bella Freud]

Wow.

[Rashida Jones]

And my wonderful co director, Al Hicks, who's like, you know, it's really nice to be able to share that experience with somebody, because it's very intense to capture your parent. But Jane Rosenthal, who runs Tribeca Films, is Robert De Niro's partner. She came up to me. We've been friends for a long time. She knows my dad very well. And she was like, you have to make a movie about your dad. And I had that feeling, like, oh, it was like a gut punch. Like, I don't want to, but I have to do this. I must do this. And I'm so, so happy that I did, because it feels like him.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Rashida Jones]

And I get to. You know, I don't watch it back too often, because I do. It just makes. It just destroys me emotionally. But, you know, it's a meditation on his life, and it's a meditation on him meditating on his own life. And, you know, we had this moment where he went into diabetic shock in the middle of, you know, filming, and we stopped filming. And luckily, my brother was filming in the hospital because he. We were sort of using it to show him after he got out of his coma because we wanted to convince him to stop drinking, which literally woke up from a coma at 82 and was like, I'm not gonna drink anymore. So we didn't even have to do it. But luckily we had that footage. And luckily, you know, he survived that. So putting that in there really felt like we could tell the story of his survival and his resilience and his nine lives. And, you know, and then we had the gift of, you know, he lived for another nine years, you know, incredible.

[Bella Freud]

Which was.

[Rashida Jones]

Yeah, he was an absolute beast. Just a loving beast, you know, really wanted to be here.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. It's difficult to show someone who you love so much that you love them when they're, you know, they have their own life. And, I mean, I found that with my father that my only real way of showing him was to sit for him.

[Rashida Jones]

Right.

[Bella Freud]

And at least it was an act I could make, and it was just a lit. A gesture of my. My kind of loyalty. But did you.

[Rashida Jones]

Would you. Would you talk when you sat for him?

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, he was. Unless he was painting my mouth. We would talk away about anything from. He had an amazing memory and would remember all these poems and these things he'd tell me about things I was interested in and, like Ballets Russes and all those kind of. That era in the 40s in Paris. And then he was very funny about people and gossip and it was fantastic being with him.

[Rashida Jones]

That's so nice. It's like stolen time. Yeah, lovely.

[Bella Freud]

It was really. It was great fun.

[Rashida Jones]

Same. So that's. You know, I'm with him everywhere sometimes with a camera, but I got to just. Yeah, I just got to spend all this time with him. It was great.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. Yeah. It's great to have an excuse to spend time for something. Yes. It feels. It makes. There. It's like a skateboard to go on, isn't it?

[Ested Herndon]

Yeah.

[Rashida Jones]

And then you have this thing that you essentially made together.

[Bella Freud]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. Because you're a writer and your new film, the Invite is described in a review as a four way sex comedy of embarrassment. Intriguing, amusing, and somehow bizarrely moving. And it's really interesting about sexual fantasy and how the characters played by Olivia Wilde and Seth Rogen keep theirs private from each other. And the Penelope Cruise and Edward Norton characters share theirs with each other and anyone else. And Esther Perel, the renowned sex therapist, she has a credit and I wondered, did you work directly with her on the interactions and how they worked?

[Rashida Jones]

I did. I was very lucky to work with Esterer. Yeah, we had a few sessions and every single thing that comes out of her mouth, you just like, oh. Hits so hard. Like she finds a way to crystallize the kind of essence of two ways of being or the essence of relationship, and then just like puts it in the most like perfect, pithy, thoughtful like package where you just like, literally. We were just all kind of like agog with everything she said. So. Yeah, we're very lucky to work with her. And there's a lot in the movie that is borrowed directly from Esther. She knows that. I mean, I've, you know, thanked her effusively for just giving us the wisdom to like to anchor the movie in reality, you know, because Will and I, my writing partner, we're so obsessed with relationships. We're so obsessed with the dynamics and long term relationships, especially now. Cause we've both been in them for a long time and have families. But yeah, for us, you know, yes, there's obviously sex, but there's some famous quote that is like, everything is about sex except for sex.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Rashida Jones]

I feel like maybe somebody in your family said that. I don't know. But it's true.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Rashida Jones]

And this movie is that which is like you have a couple keeping secrets. You have a couple, a new couple sharing secrets and like kind of using secrets to create this sort of frothy, exciting, passionate sex life. And so many people in relationships, I think, feel like communication stalls out when sex stalls out. And that's not a mistake because sex is kind of a tool for intimacy and it should and can bring you much closer together. And so when you stop doing that, you sort of create this like giant divide.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Rashida Jones]

Where it feels like you can't even speak to each other.

[Bella Freud]

I know. Because sex is communication.

[Rashida Jones]

Exactly.

[Bella Freud]

It's not just the side dish, you know, it's. But it was so well written. I mean, just brilliant. The totally credible and so thought provoking. And I mean, I'm a huge fan of Esther Perel, and she's been on Fashion Neurosis, and I was totally honored. You know, she's an advocate for fantasy and passion, and it bears no relationship to the mechanical nature of what can be in porn. And I found that very interesting. But she also, in her book. Her book Mating in Captivity, she talks about keeping risk alive. And I wondered how you dress to keep risk alive.

[Rashida Jones]

Oh, my God. Well, I mean, I guess, like, risk to me is so psychological. So I guess I definitely don't wear high heels. I don't like to keep that risk alive. I'm done with that era of my life. Can't do it anymore. I'll wear a platform, but I will not wear, like, a stiletto. No. But I like the tension, which is why I think I'm very into suiting. But I like the tension of. Of it makes me feel kind of sexy and risque. To dress masculine.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Rashida Jones]

Like, that is sort of like a bit of, like, a fetish.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Rashida Jones]

You know, I think it's so cool because it's kind of like what lies beneath.

[Bella Freud]

Yes, it's true. It's the conflict. Cause there you have this angelic face, and there's these kind of big lapels, and a bit like, where are you?

[Rashida Jones]

In there?

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Rashida Jones]

Right.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Rashida Jones]

And I also. I like the idea that, you know, like any interesting person, there's layers, and then you kind of. You can, like, echo that with what you wear. You know, like. Yeah, there's. You will have to peel back layers. You will have to get to know me to. To really, like, know me. You know, you have to, like, work a little bit to get to know me.

[Bella Freud]

And if you fancy someone and don't like something they're wearing, does it kill your attraction?

[Rashida Jones]

Oh, my God. Completely. Completely. My Will and I, we had a tax chain for a while called Tricky Jeans, which was just about that. It was like, if there's, for the most part, embroidery on a jean pocket, it's kind of over, you know, it's kind of over. I think as I get older, I'm probably less shallow. But certainly it was very defining in my 20s and 30s to be like, if a guy's wearing a certain kind of shoes, like, I can't kiss him. I can't do it.

[Bella Freud]

You know, A shoe is a big indicator, isn't it? It gives a lot away.

[Rashida Jones]

It gives a lot away. Like, it can be all very right. And then you get to the bottom and you go, what? How?

[Bella Freud]

I find a gene that clings to the calf, destabilizing Stretchy gene.

[Rashida Jones]

Yeah, I'm. I'm not one for like a clingy. I don't like clingy for myself. I don't like clingy clothes. I think it can be cool if it's like, it's like silk or there's, you know, it's like an intentional moment. But in general to just opt for a clingy fit at all times. It's like, not my thing.

[Bella Freud]

I'm with you. Mind you, I do really admire it on other people to be wearing skin tight stuff. I just think, oh, that's so fascinating.

[Rashida Jones]

Fascinating, yeah. Fascinating.

[Bella Freud]

Impressive. And all the things I was more dismissive about. Now I celebrate. I was on the tube, going up the escalator behind this girl wearing the tightest shorts, and I thought, oh, I'm so glad you're doing that. I couldn't have done that.

[Rashida Jones]

Totally.

[Bella Freud]

I'm glad someone's doing it. And she looked great, you know?

[Rashida Jones]

Totally makes you think of how different all of our brains are. Cause it's also like what you're wearing, how it makes you feel, how you think other people perceive you, how you want to be perceived, how you are perceiving somebody else. Like, there's so many layers to how and why we wear clothes, you know, and everybody has such a different relationship with the thing that they're wearing.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Rashida Jones]

It's so interesting.

[Bella Freud]

And you have a fantastic boyfriend, Ezra Koenig, who's the lead singer of Vampire Weekend. Does he ever veto anything you wear? Like, Nick Cave has a hatred of ankle boots, which was so funny.

[Rashida Jones]

I like, you're like the first person to ever say his last name. Right? That's the right. Koenigsegg. Yes, that's the German pronunciation.

[Bella Freud]

Yes. I did a German exchange at school, so I know all about German pronunciation.

[Rashida Jones]

He. He's very supportive of my fashion and he's a very stylish dude himself, so. But I will often ask him. We have this inside joke where he's like, okay, yeah, maybe you're. I think you're just playing with volume too much. Cause I'm always playing with volume. But then there's, you know, like, I reach a cap where I'm like, the playing with volume must stop. I need to stop playing with volume. But it's only when I ask. He never volunteers that. And he always. He's very sweetly. He's like, you're so beautiful. And you're so beautiful in anything you wear. And, you know, we have a lot in common in the way that we dress we like the same designers. I will borrow a lot of his clothes. I'll buy him clothes. He buys me clothes. You know, we have a. We have a shared color palette.

[Bella Freud]

Oh, so nice. Oh, that's lovely. Well, thank you so much, Rashida Jones, for being on Fashion Neurosis. You've been a great inspiration to me in my life, and it's just wonderful

[Rashida Jones]

to have you here. I feel. I feel so therapized. I do. I feel calmer. I feel like I've released a lot of. A lot of things. There's been a lot of insights I didn't expect to, but I think I feel better.

[Bella Freud]

Wow. So do I.

[Rashida Jones]

Thank you, Bella. Sa.