Stephen Jones

Summary

Podcast Summary: Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud Episode: Stephen Jones (June 3, 2026)

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Overview

In this engaging episode, Bella Freud welcomes iconic British milliner Stephen Jones to her metaphorical couch. Their intimate, wide-ranging conversation is both a celebration of the artistry, history, and psychology of hats and a moving exploration of how fashion expresses our deepest identities. Through anecdotes, confessions, and laughter, they discuss their shared history, the transformative magic of hats, mentorship by Vivienne Westwood, and the unspoken codes that fashion carries, weaving in stories of punk, New Romanticism, and the enduring influence of the designers they’ve admired and worked with.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Language and Power of the Hat

• What Stephen Is Wearing and Why ([00:39])
  • Stephen details his ensemble, highlighting the Vivienne crown hat—made of woolens and lamé—and bondage trousers from the late ‘70s.
  • He reflects on fashion as communication and their shared link to Vivienne Westwood.
• Notable Quote:
  "Fashion is really about communication...and if I'm going to be lying flat on my back and I'm wearing a hat, I have to have something which is a little bit soft." — Stephen Jones ([00:39])

The Vivienne Westwood Connection

• Bella and Stephen reminisce about the origins of the Vivienne crown, legendary fabric hunts on Berwick Street, and the vibrant, messy, creative atmosphere of Camden’s Greenland Street shop. ([03:03]–[05:56])
• They recall how they first connected—Stephen recommending a hat-peak supplier to Bella.
• Notable Quote:
  "It was such a dump, the place, and...a hive of creative activity." — Bella Freud ([05:14])

Early Influences and Family

• Stephen shares his family’s initial disapproval of his career (expected to join the family haulage business or become an accountant) and the deep, late-life moment of acceptance from his father. ([08:22]–[10:07])

• Notable Quote:
  "You had to do the thing which was right for you." — Stephen's father ([09:42])

• His mother’s influence: visits to art galleries, the atmospheric experiences as formative, associating art with hats and sensory impressions (like lush carpets). ([10:34]–[12:15])

The Hat as Identity, Shield, and Sword

• The emotional resonance and psychological power of hats, referencing Isabella Blow and Anna Piaggi:
  "The hat did the communication for them." — Stephen Jones ([13:07])
• Wearing hats as both defense and assertion; hats being both shield and sword. ([14:13])
• Notable Quote:
  "Ac hat is this shield. And maybe a sword as well." — Stephen Jones ([14:15])

Childhood Obsessions, Music and Fashion

• School uniforms versus secret fashion obsessions: loons (extremely flared aubergine trousers), musical influences—Roxy Music, David Bowie—with fashion and music intertwined. ([17:08]–[19:08])
• Bella shares her own formative music—Bob Marley, Nina Simone, Leonard Cohen—and the sense of empowerment they provided. ([20:25])

Entry into Fashion and Millinery

• Stephen’s path to millinery at St. Martin’s—realizing he had no idea how to style women, but that millinery allowed him to see hats as a continuation of the body’s silhouette, never in isolation. ([24:12]–[26:33])
• Notable Quote:
  "When I think of hats, I always think of the body...a continuation of the silhouette." — Stephen Jones ([24:31])
• The difference between fashion designers and milliners: designers need fierce ego and self-belief, while milliners require adaptability and collaboration. ([26:42]–[29:46])

Collaboration, Ego, and the Westwood Method

• Collaborating with visionaries like Vivienne Westwood and Rei Kawakubo: the impossibility of predicting their taste, the required flexibility, and learning through rejection and support alike. ([29:46]–[32:56])
• Notable Quote:
  "She wanted the spice in the mixture—the thing which was unexpected...that's what made it work." — Stephen Jones on Rei Kawakubo ([29:32])

Punk, New Romanticism & Subcultures

• Squat life and the support system among rising creatives: living/working in Warren Street among figures like Michael Clark, Grayson Perry, Boy George. ([33:03]–[35:29])
• The journey from punk to New Romanticism, how club scenes like Blitz became crucibles for creative codes and social navigation, and the lack of concern for money as a motivator. ([35:33]–[37:06])

Hat Etiquette and Global Style

• Discussion of "hat etiquette": its evolution from rigid rules to a modern, context-driven code. ([42:32]–[47:36])
• Emphasis on diversity in global fashion and headwear, and challenging the notion that some people cannot wear hats:
  _"There's no limits." — Stephen Jones ([48:40])

Competition, Collaboration, and Longevity

• On competition in millinery: collaboration and camaraderie outweigh rivalry, particularly between him and Philip Treacy. ([51:11]–[52:58])
• Notable Quote:
  "If you think that you don't have competition, maybe you'll become lazy." — Stephen Jones ([52:58])
• The emotional stresses of collaboration, creative breakdowns, and how top designers like Galliano and Montana both challenge and support their teams:
  _"But you will do it, won't you?" — John Galliano ([53:46])

Fashion as Protest and Transformation

• The activist spirit in fashion: referencing Vivienne Westwood’s legacy and clothing as a banner for protest and belonging. ([61:44]–[63:37])
• Notable Quote:
  "Clothing is a banner, but on your body—it's a place to wear your heart on your sleeve, literally." — Stephen Jones ([63:19])

Fashion’s Enduring, Transformative Power

• Bella and Stephen agree on the magic of fashion to reinvent and empower; recounting how Vivienne Westwood’s designs transformed not just individuals but communities, regardless of body type. ([68:10]–[70:47])
• Notable Quote:
  "Fashion is a freedom. You can reinvent yourself...become the person you want to be temporarily." — Stephen Jones ([68:45])

Memorable Anecdotes and Reflections

• On Thierry Mugler:
  Stephen tells a dramatic story of falling out with Mugler—being threatened with the police after seeking permission to collaborate with a rival—only to reconcile years later, just before Mugler's death. ([64:00]–[67:32])

• On Extreme Fashion Feats:
  Stephen recounts making hazardous hats (like a dry-ice-filled helmet for Jade Parfitt) and years of devotion to the craft as the “most extreme” thing he’s done for fashion. ([57:43]–[58:41])

• On Attraction and Style:
  "If someone is well dressed, that's a fantastic and joyful aphrodisiac...isn't that what fashion's about?" — Stephen Jones ([58:55])

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Noteworthy Quotes & Moments (by Timestamp)

• On hats as both shield and sword: [14:15]
• On transformative magic of Westwood’s clothes: [70:15]
• On club culture and the irrelevance of money: [35:50]
• On competition among milliners: [52:42]
• On creative crisis with Galliano: [53:46]
• On the activist nature of fashion: [63:19]
• On crossing etiquette boundaries: [42:32]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:39 — Stephen’s outfit of the day and symbolism
• 03:03–05:56 — Tales from Vivienne Westwood’s studio
• 08:22–10:07 — Family resistance and late approval
• 13:07–14:15 — The dual power of hats: shield and sword
• 24:12–26:33 — Millinery vs. fashion design; hats as silhouette
• 29:46–32:56 — Collaboration and unpredictability in design
• 33:03–35:29 — Warren Street squat, scene and subculture
• 35:33–37:06 — Club life, motivation, and creativity
• 42:32–47:36 — Hat etiquette, then and now
• 53:46–56:52 — Breaking down on the job, designer mentorship
• 61:44–63:37 — Fashion as protest and activism
• 64:00–67:32 — Mugler, Montana, and feud resolution
• 68:10–70:47 — Westwood’s transformative influence and inclusivity

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a masterclass in both fashion history and emotional honesty. Bella and Stephen unravel how fashion—especially hats—not only shapes the image we present to the world, but also becomes a tool for transformation, protest, and personal liberation. Their anecdotes and mutual admiration, laced with humor and candor, offer rare insights into life behind the scenes with the world's greatest designers, the power of collaboration, and the magic that happens at the intersection of style and identity.

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For listeners and lovers of fashion alike, this conversation proves that clothing is never just skin deep—it is, as Stephen says, “wearing your heart on your sleeve…literally.”

Transcript

[Bella Freud]

Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. Stephen Jones.

[Stephen Jones]

Hello, Bella, my darling, how are you?

[Bella Freud]

I'm very happy to see you here and our long friendship being cemented by me in the chair and you on the couch. Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?

[Stephen Jones]

It's quite a long story. I. Well, first of all, I thought, well, what unites us? Because fashion is really about communication. And I thought, well, Vivian unites us. And I thought, well, if I'm going to be lying flat on my back and I'm wearing a hat, I have to have something which is a little bit soft. Can't have something with the brim. So I thought, well, maybe the Vivienne tweed crown or the Vivienne crown could be suitable. So that's what I'm wearing today. And it's not the tweed version, but one which is made from woolens and lame and different fabrics. And then I'm wearing an MA1 jacket, which was given to me by Carlot Sosani from teacher Corsicomo a few years ago. And then underneath, I'm wearing a T shirt from Vivian, which I bought, I think, in about 1977, 1978. It's seditionary as well. And then my original bondage trousers, which, amazingly enough, I can still get into.

[Bella Freud]

Gosh.

[Stephen Jones]

And socks from Pantherella with which are a special edition by Sanderson that I thought looked quite wonderfully baroque. But when I put them on, my husband Craig said to me it looked like his mother's sofa, which wasn't exactly the effect that I wanted to have. And a pair of shoes from a company called Milk Boy in Japan, which was. Milk was actually a company which was started between Hitomi Okawa and Reikawakubo before she started Comme des Garcons. And it was a joint company financed by Hitomi's mother. But then they went their separate ways. And the shoes from Milk Boy, I mean, it's like a young skater's label for boys and for girls. She really invented the Kawaii, very, very sweet Japanese look, which was, you know, in a way, traditional, but she did the modern version of it. So that's what I'm wearing, I think.

[Bella Freud]

Oh, it's so good, especially to see the crown, because I remember, though, some of the fabrics, because when Vivienne was thinking about it, when I was working for her and she was working on the tweed collection, she sent me off to Berwick street market to bring back jewel like velvets to be in the crown. And I remember the velvet that acts as the ermine on the one you're wearing, and the ones with glitter and getting all these really kitsch cuttings of velvet from Boroviks. I don't even know if that's still there. I doubt it.

[Stephen Jones]

Oh, Borofix is very much still there.

[Bella Freud]

Is it?

[Stephen Jones]

It's smaller than it used to be, but absolutely it's there. Selling lots of different sorts of fabrics, but still supplying theaters and brides and Central St. Martin students.

[Bella Freud]

Wow. It was such a great shop. And they had hundreds of different things, but they seemed to specialize in this, you know, these crazy things that you wouldn't ever be seen dead in, but actually were unbelievably useful.

[Stephen Jones]

And, you know, they used to do a fabulous range of polka dot nylon with black polka dots on fluorescent pink, fluorescent green, fluorescent blue, everything. It is extraordinary. And you know that they were going to be at the end of the pier next season in some sort of very, very British play or something, Camporama. But it was through Vivienne, because I have a memory, which we have spoken about it, but I'm not quite sure if you do remember, but you phoned me up one day and said that Vivienne was making some caps and did I know where you could get the peaks from? And I recommended a company up north called Brayshire, who still exists. And that, I think, was the first time we spoke to each other.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, because it was when Vivienne was set up in Greenland street in Camden, and Stephen Linnard, I think, was downstairs, and Trevor, who made, yes, the shoes for Vivian, the rocking horseshoes. So there was a little kind of. It was such a dump, the place, and. But it was a hive of, you know, creative activity.

[Stephen Jones]

And what date was this then?

[Bella Freud]

It would have been 80, I think I worked either 85 or maybe 86. 86 to 89.

[Stephen Jones]

I was there because I had been living with Princess Julia and Geoffrey Hinton just down the road from you. But actually, at that point, I moved further up the road and I was living in Chalk Farm, but well within walking distance, I think.

[Bella Freud]

I remember those caps because were they like little riding hats?

[Stephen Jones]

Either little writing caps or the schoolboy caps, too?

[Bella Freud]

Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah.

[Stephen Jones]

Gosh, it was quite funny because just before Christmas, I was installing an exhibition at the National Gallery of Victoria in Melbourne, which was the Westwood Kawakubo exhibition, and installing those hats on heads. And it is extraordinary how, even though it was a long time ago, it just seems so relevant.

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[Skylar Diggins / Cassidy Hubbard]

What's up y'?

[Bella Freud]

All?

[Skylar Diggins / Cassidy Hubbard]

I'm Skylar Diggins, seven time WNBA All Star, Olympic gold medalist and mom.

[Stephen Jones]

And I'm Cassidy Hubbard, host and reporter for nearly covering the biggest names and stories in sports and mom.

[Skylar Diggins / Cassidy Hubbard]

And this is and mom. A community for athletes, game changers and moms of all kinds. Dropping May 14th tap in with us

[Bella Freud]

and you're the most successful milliner in the world. And you've worked with the biggest designers in existence, including five different creative directors at Dior, from John Galliano to Jonathan Anderson. And you've been awarded an obe. And you said your family hated the idea of you going into hat making. Why was that?

[Stephen Jones]

Well, I'm sure, well, either they wanted me to go into the family company, which was a haulage business in Liverpool, which was not exactly me, but I mean, I look back, it sounds very arrogant of me to say so. I was very lucky to be given that opportunity. But I'm sure my father wanted me to become a, an accountant or something more straight laced as opposed to going to art school like my elder sister who had flunked out after the first year. So I, I, I just didn't think they thought it was a proper job. And funnily enough, I think they felt that way all their lives. Apart from the fact that at the very end of my father's life, he hadn't said anything for a long time. I decided to have a conversation with him, but I had to take up both parts, both vocal parts. And I said, you know, I'm sorry I didn't become an accountant or a doctor or whatever. I haven't got 2.5 children. And suddenly he hadn't spoken for ages, said in a very, very quiet voice, said, well, you had to do the thing which was right for you. And he died very shortly afterwards. But for so many years thinking that he was, you know, non supportive, that's the polite version, by the way. I realized he was really Cool about it.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Stephen Jones]

And it's amazing that I could get that sort of happiness and contentment which has followed me since.

[Bella Freud]

How wonderful. That's such a. How incredible to have that moment also, that you. You made the effort to have some kind of exchange, even though you were expecting him literally not to be able to speak.

[Stephen Jones]

Yeah. I don't know. It just felt like it's now or never.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Stephen Jones]

And sort of get on with it,

[Bella Freud]

because your mother took you to art galleries, and I wondered what the first painting you were drawn to with a good hat in it.

[Stephen Jones]

I mean, I was so young. I don't know. It's probably actually not the art gallery, but the Laughing Cavalier on Top of Biscuit Ting or something like that. I don't. I can't remember. But I think if you're a child and you're going to an art gallery, it's not only the paintings that you're looking at, it's the whole experience. I mean, just marble columns, the grandeur of it. Gilt frames, and then, you know, the Blue Boy or the Gainsborough or the whatever within it. And I do remember explaining to me this is the Hogarth line and not so much fashion, but what everything represented.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Stephen Jones]

And I don't know how she learned that, or she was just imagining it, or they'd grown up during. My parents had grown up during the war, so they had to be ruthlessly practical, a very different life. But, I mean, for example, I remember coming down to the Courtauld Institute. Not when I was 5 years old. I was probably 10 or something. And, yes, there are all the wonderful paintings, but I remember there was the thickest beige carpet I'd ever seen. And it was the most velvety, wonderful texture. And so, of course, sound was incredibly muffled. And it just felt like you were in the inside of an oyster or something.

[Bella Freud]

Oh, that's so good. I love the things that stay in one's memory that are completely. But then they sort of generate the memory of the art as well. Even though the thing that is so enticing is the carpet. And when I was thinking about asking you what was the first hat you'd seen in a painting? And I had a poster, a Toulouse Lautrec poster on my. All of Larry Steed with the dark blue. He's wearing the dark blue trilby and the red scarf.

[Stephen Jones]

And it.

[Bella Freud]

I realized.

[Stephen Jones]

Oh, yes.

[Bella Freud]

The whole kind of atmosphere of how he was dressed and what the hat did was really important somehow.

[Stephen Jones]

Oh, yes. It completely underlines your intent. It's funny, there is if you wear a hat, there is no escape somehow, even though the hat can be an escape. I remember real hat wearers, both Anna Piaggi and Isabella Blow talking to me about the power of a hat and how they could relax underneath it. And the hat did the communication for them. Right.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Stephen Jones]

So it wasn't only a defense, it was extraordinary, magical tool.

[Bella Freud]

It's so interesting, the thing of self consciousness, how contraintuitive it can be. And that thing of almost going into the eye of the storm is where you feel safe and because something else is doing the work, getting the attention for you, but you don't. Just because you're shy doesn't mean you want to be anonymous. And.

[Stephen Jones]

No.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Stephen Jones]

And. And. And you have to do what you have to do. You have to live your life. And a hat is this shield. And. And maybe a sword as well.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. Oh, that's so good.

[Stephen Jones]

Well, I think people. I mean, fashion. This is a communication. It's a tool. It's a tool of how to be. We're all born naked and basically the same underneath it. And. And that was the thing that my mother taught me. What a high heel. You know, why are the men wearing high heels? To make themselves look more. To make themselves look taller and more important in a classical painting.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. God, it's such a good bit of information, actually. You have exquisite manners. And I read that when you first met the dj, Jeremy Healy, his name for you was Lady Penelope, because everyone thought you were posh. And she had a huge influence on me, Lady Penelope. And I wondered if she had one

[Stephen Jones]

on you, Lady Penelope. Well, it's so funny you should ask that. Yes. I mean, during sort of punk times, neuromantic times, a few people did call me Lady Penelope. I don't know if Sylvia Anderson, who voiced her, would have approved, but. Yes, when I. I was growing up, I loved Thunderbirds and all those puppet shows. And if. I think. If anybody would have asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up, it was probably a puppet I loved. I don't know, it was, I think, the reality of life. Even though in. In the northwest, on the rural peninsula, looking out at the storms coming in from the sea was one thing, and I guess it wasn't too bad. But, you know, the fantasy world of television and a puppet show was wonderful. But, I mean, I love television. It was this magical box through all this, where all this stuff came from, and it just seemed to be so much more interesting than church or anything. My parents.

[Bella Freud]

Do you remember a piece of clothing that you became obsessed with as a child?

[Stephen Jones]

I don't know, as a child. I'm not really sure. I mean, because I wore school uniform when I was at prep school and school uniform when I was at pregnant boarding school. I suppose I wasn't obsessed with our school boat or anything like that. I was obsessed with. I guess, I mean, music became my obsession.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Stephen Jones]

And I remember buying the Roxy music albums in 1972 when they came out and I was completely disowned by all my friends who thought it was girls music really. Oh yeah, it was. It then it was very uncool because I. I mean a few of my friends sort of then took on board David Bowie and Rox Music. But a boarded boys boarding school in Liverpool did not really entertain eyeliner and they were all into, I don't know, heavy rock and a mandalier. They. They weren't interested in, I don't know, thought it was the threat or thought it was a joke or something. So not that I wanted to or I thought possibly I could dress like Brian Ferry or Auntie Mackay, but I was obsessed by. I was obsessed by their clothes. And I remember buying a pair of loons for those of you who are under 200 years old. A pair of loons. Loons were very flared trousers and the best place to buy them was out of the back of either Melody Maker or New Musical Express. And there were little boxes and you could order your waist size, which in those days was probably about 26 inches or something ridiculous. And I remember buying my pair of lins and I bought with my pocket money and they were aubergine.

[Bella Freud]

Oh my gosh.

[Stephen Jones]

And I was so in love with them, I can't tell you. And then I bought a pair, I did an exchange and I can't exactly remember how I had them with a massive pair of platforms and I thought I was the bee's knees.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, the back pages of Melody Maker were great for ordering. I mean I. We never even had any pocket. I just never seemed to have anything. But I did manage to buy a scoop neck T shirt with mirrors embroidered all over.

[Stephen Jones]

Cool.

[Bella Freud]

From one of those back pages and spent a lot of time looking at those adverts with little illustrations of flared trousers and stuff.

[Stephen Jones]

Yes. I wish I could remember the name of the company that made them.

[Bella Freud]

Oh, they were so good.

[Stephen Jones]

It did Dresser generation.

[Bella Freud]

Totally.

[Stephen Jones]

Because I think when you went to clothing shops then there was very much Gents Outfitters or there was a department store or there was especially a shop where you got school Uniform from. But. And I guess there was the very beginnings of places like Ms. Selfridge or Topshop.

[Bella Freud]

Chelsea Girl.

[Stephen Jones]

Or Chelsea Girl. Yeah.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Stephen Jones]

But for men's clothes, there really wasn't anywhere. Anyway, I think music was almost more important than fashion, but the two were really closely associated. Who were you, who were you listening to when you were 15?

[Bella Freud]

I discovered Bob Marley. That was a huge thing for me. And the words, I felt that they described my stance in life. You know, get up, stand up. I just thought, yes. I remember carving that into my desk at school and. But then my mother had good records. She had Nina Simone and Leonard Cohen. But my first own music was really David Bowie, the Stones, and then Bob Marley. And I went to see him in concert. Even I managed to get to see him. And that was a real game changer.

[Stephen Jones]

Wow. I went to see David Bowie in concert.

[Bella Freud]

Oh.

[Stephen Jones]

At Earl's Court, which was amazing. Funny you mentioned about Nina Simone there, because I remember during new romantic times, listening, which, I mean literally, this must be 1980 and hearing a Nina Simone record on the radio. But of course, in those days it was pre cd, so if you wanted to listen to any music like that, you had to go to Notting Hill Gate Record and Music Exchange and spend an entire afternoon looking through 1078s trying to find record 78s. Yeah.

[Bella Freud]

Oh, my God.

[Stephen Jones]

Because music wasn't really reissued. Hi, I'm Maria Sharapova, host of the Pretty Tough podcast.

[Bella Freud]

Each episode, I sit down with high

[Stephen Jones]

achieving women to discuss the pursuit of excellence without apology.

[Bella Freud]

This week on the show, clinical psychologist

[Stephen Jones]

and founder Dr. Becky Kennedy and I

[Bella Freud]

unpack what it really means to raise kids today.

[Stephen Jones]

I think parenting is the most important job in the world and the one that has the most impact on your world and the world. It is non stop.

[Bella Freud]

Check out Pretty Tough new episodes on Wednesdays.

[Skylar Diggins / Cassidy Hubbard]

You can watch it on YouTube or

[Stephen Jones]

listen in your favorite podcast app.

[Skylar Diggins / Cassidy Hubbard]

Hey, girl, it's Teffy. This week on Teffy Talks, we're talking Kendall and Jacob reality TV villain Spencer Pratt running for mayor and a look inside the Cannes Film Festival. Mind you, I bought the majority of my crystals from Pratt Daddy crystals. Incredible quality. But I never thought he'd be running for mayor. And it does pain me to say the words Pratt Daddy. If you're not already following the show, find us everywhere. Effy Talks. Subscribe on YouTube and all the podcast platforms and Instagram and TikTok so you can share with your other work bestie.

[Bella Freud]

See ya.

[Podcast Narrator]

In the span of a decade, Ben Shapiro built The Daily Wire into a conservative media empire. He produced hit podcasts that bit at liberal excesses and documentaries and lectures about the founders, the genders, the gospels. He peddled polos, hats, candles provided a home for de platformed conservative stars like Matt Walsh and minted stars like Candace Owens. Let's put a pin in that. The Daily Wire even has kids programming a judgmental puppet named Zoodles, Zoodles who share Shapiro's load bearing eyebrows. This year, though, the empire showed signs of collapse. The Daily Wire's YouTube videos are down from millions of views to the low five figures, Web traffic is plummeting, and recently Shapiro laid off 13% of his employees. Asked by the Washington Post what had happened, Shapiro accused other conservatives of click whoring by embracing radical Islam, theorizing about the of Winston Churchill and mocking the widow of Charlie Kirk. The kids still got it on Today explained. The fall of Ben Shapiro Today explained drops every weekday afternoon because you described

[Bella Freud]

enrolling into St. Martin's to study womenswear and realizing you had no idea how you wanted a woman to dress, and you found your fashion compass in the millinery department. And what is the difference between a dress designer and a hat designer?

[Stephen Jones]

Well, I was doing fashion at St. Martin's St. Martin's by the way, not Central Saint Martins, as you rightly said. So when I first left college, I was designing womenswear as well as hats. But what's the difference between the two things? I don't know. Not much, in a way, because when I think of hats, I always think of the body and I think of the backbone first and then the head, and then I put a hat on it. I never really think of the hat in isolation. I always think it part of being something. And often people do see hats as a separate thing, but I always like them as being just a continuation. I mean, I remember once asking John Galliano, why are you so interested in hats? Why do you like hats? And he said, oh, that's funny coming from you. And he said, well, why would dress designers stop being interested in the body at the neck, like at the hem of the clothes at your wrist? Why would your interest stop there? So in the same way as Dior thought it was just a continuation of the silhouette, maybe a punctuation, but really a continuation of the silhouette. You know, I think about it all in one. Having said that, I quite like hats to be my hands, to be sort of a conversation piece, you know, something of something about hats where they can be entertaining and cheer you up. And I actually think if that's all that a hat can be, just to cheer somebody up. It's the most fabulous thing ever.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Stephen Jones]

I mean it's better than. I mean a fabulous therapy, if you will. Said he being on the sofa because

[Bella Freud]

you, you mentioned something about a difference in ego. That a designer has to have more ego than a milliner.

[Stephen Jones]

Oh yeah.

[Bella Freud]

What did you mean by that?

[Stephen Jones]

I. I mean, I think to be a fashion designer is so, so unbelievably difficult. And as the days go past, days literally not only years, I think it becomes more and more difficult. They have to have a self belief which is extraordinary and they sort of have to believe they're the best.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Stephen Jones]

Otherwise you just couldn't do it and do it to themselves. And they have a message and they have to be a very strong person. I mean with any designer, I mean, for example, with Jonathan, unless he was completely decisive and clear, there's no way he could handle the workload. There's thousands of people who he has to direct and because of that you have to be sure of yourself and sure of your power. If you're a milliner, it's very different because you have to learn or maybe you are that way of being able to fit into really somebody else's story. It's. You are contributing to it hugely. But I mean, for example, at Dior it's Jonathan's name above the front door, not mine. And. And I'm fine with that. Always being the bridesmaid, never the bride. But no, it's the way it should be. And it's been my greatest privilege to work with the greatest design minds of our time. I mean it's been extraordinary how to dip into their minds. It's a. It's a wonderful thing to sort of really been there with Vivienne and seen her passion and sort of tried to understand her and being with Ray and tried to understand her even though. I mean, it's so funny, I always think when. I mean, I don't really make hats for main collections now, but we sort of collaborate all the time on different projects. I always thought that if ever I sketched or made something that she would like, I know automatically she would hate it.

[Bella Freud]

Who's this? Vivian or Ray?

[Stephen Jones]

Because she wanted the spice in the mixture. The thing which was unexpected, the thing that she didn't know about, the thing that she didn't want. And that's what made it work.

[Bella Freud]

I know it was always impossible. I mean, I know it's an obvious thing, but working with Vivian, trying to fathom out what she might like and having to go completely sort of limp within and lose opinion and just flow with whatever it was that she had, but hadn't even entirely articulated and just be there waiting to put something into action. And it was a great. A great discipline because, you know, the fashion to be nice to everyone didn't exist then. And it wasn't a bad thing either to be held, you know, to be pushed in that way. And I really value her sort of sneers of absolute contempt at some of my suggestions and the other ones where she really relied on me for something, something or other that I was able to offer.

[Stephen Jones]

And I think she had complete faith in you, Bella.

[Bella Freud]

She. Sometimes I was really useless quite a lot of the time. I.

[Stephen Jones]

And that's maybe the fact that you were useless is the reason why. Because she didn't want somebody who was incredibly self assured and was going to train her. You gave her the envelope within which she could express herself. You made her feel safe, which is why she could tell you what she wanted to have or whatever. Which is also a part of a wonderful collaboration. I mean, I really believe that it's not only. And it's the aura that surrounds you. Maybe you don't realize that, maybe it's a good thing that you don't, but you have that around you.

[Bella Freud]

Gosh. Well, that's a nice thing to imagine. I, of course, can only remember the

[Stephen Jones]

time where she shouted at you.

[Bella Freud]

I don't mind her shouting at me at all, but I just remember the time where she designed these. She had these ideas for prints that went on this shirt and shorts ensemble. It was so beautiful. And then I remembered the samples arriving and I'd go to Italy and put them into work and it was quite hard work because they were always saying no to me. And I would try and find a way way around it. And I used to be known as e possibile because I'd start every sentence with this. E possibile that you can do this, that. But then I forgot to get the print put on the back of the shirt and it's as if we had that conversation yesterday. And her fat look of withering kind of, oh my God, it was terrible. But anyway, she made me strong.

[Stephen Jones]

She'd come on the sofa and we have a cuddle and I channel her forgiveness to you.

[Bella Freud]

And you were part of that squat that everyone cool lived in. Was it in Warren Street?

[Stephen Jones]

In Warren street, yes.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. Was it Michael Clark and John Mayberry?

[Stephen Jones]

Michael Clark and John Mayberry And David Hohler.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Stephen Jones]

Kim Bowen, Jeremy Healey, Stephen Leonard. And then just down the road, Grayson Perry, Boy George, Marilyn.

[Bella Freud]

Because it was around the time of the Blitz Club. Is that right? And, but you said you were a punk, and what was the appeal of punk for you?

[Stephen Jones]

Well, I was a punk when I first went to college in 1976. And I mean, vaguely. I mean, you talked about going into St. Martin's on that first day. And I went into this big room and there were all these beige girls wearing cashmere and there were a few punks on the other side of the room. And I went to the punks because I thought they were the cool people, but they looked more interested. And one of them, this girl called Shan, and she was in the band called the Nipple Erectors and was an extraordinary punk. So, you know, two years later, in a way, by the late 70s, punk really for us was dead and we were trying to find something else. So that's when we sort of really became New Romantics. Yeah, certainly it was New wave, which was all fluorescence and geometry and Bauhaus. And then people started to be interested in historicism, I think. And that was when there was Convergence of the Blitz. And I was living in Warren Street. Well, I wasn't living in Morin Street. I had a workroom in Morin Street. I was actually living in Pimlico then. It was an extraordinary place and we all really supported each other. Yeah, but we never imagined that X years later there'd be an exhibition at the Design Museum all about us.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Stephen Jones]

I mean, extraordinary how life worked out.

[Bella Freud]

I know, because those clubs, I mean, there was the Blitz and there was the Embassy Club and the Vortex. That was where I went. And there they were, like finishing schools in those days. And what kind of bad manners got you somewhere? Or not?

[Stephen Jones]

What kind of bad manners got you somewhere? Oh, I don't know. I, I, I think I, I always tried to have good manners. What got you somewhere wasn't bad manners. I think it was naming the right people, I think, like people like Dougie Fields and Andrew Logan, Lucio Martinez and Brian Eno, who, I got to say, and Derek Jarman, because they showed us all how to party, how to get into a club, how to get a free drink. Yeah, because none of us had any money. And also, what's so different to now? The idea of the pursuit of money was so uncool. We were doing it for the beauty or the, I don't know, I mean, I guess we all wanted to be rich and famous or something. But certainly you weren't really doing it for the money. Wasn't important. You would there to create something. It wasn't to create something new or to create something individual, but it was to create something that you could be.

[Bella Freud]

I think because the whole punk thing was. I suppose if you think of how to separate from your parents generation and now how hard it is for young people because were so kind of with it the parent, you know, we're so understanding and accommodating, so. But punk was a real separator.

[Stephen Jones]

I. I remember a friend of mine showed his son the rock and roll swindle the movie and he said to his son, what. What do you think of that? Did you like it? And he said, well, we have nothing to rebel against, which is so shocking. Yeah, it's hard and maybe it's right. But whether we like it or not, that's what they thought. And this was maybe 15 years ago, 20 years ago, you know, before social media, before anything which rules young lives now.

[Bella Freud]

And New Romanticism was. I was thinking it was a bit like the Royal Enclosure in a way, because there are so many codes and was it good preparation for dressing such different people as Lady Diana and Lady Gaga?

[Stephen Jones]

I love this. The idea that Blitz was like the Royal Enclosure.

[Bella Freud]

Well, I suppose those.

[Stephen Jones]

I think they're so fabulous. I wonder if the people at the Blitz would like to be in the Royal Enclosure or the people in the Royal Enclosure would like to be in the Blitz. That's so fantastic. That's certainly a chapter in a book, maybe your autobiography. I don't know though. I mean, certainly the dressing up part was important and you know, it's funny because, I mean, I don't know if you know that. Well, right at the beginning I was making hats for Steve Strange, New Romantic and hats for Diana, Princess of Wales. And I realized once that I almost. But I did not use the same pattern for both.

[Bella Freud]

Gosh, really?

[Stephen Jones]

I stopped myself at the last minute thinking I would be excommunicated or sent to the tower or something. Was she a New Romantic? Yeah, we were observing it from the outside, so we were in a way doing it in the third person, whereas she was doing it for real.

[Bella Freud]

Because Steve Strange was one of the first people that I didn't. I didn't get hard. I. I may have been to the Blitz once or twice, but I got into being a soul girl for some reason and. But I remember he was one of the first people to get into money in a way and suddenly there were all these. You go some like in the vortex, there was no cool place that the whole thing was just a pit. And it was. You were all equal in that pit. But around Steve Strange there was a cult of somehow you may be allowed in or not. That was, yes, kind of nerve wracking and not particularly enjoyable.

[Stephen Jones]

No, I mean, I think when

[Bella Freud]

we

[Stephen Jones]

were going in I was taken by my friend Ginny Hall.

[Bella Freud]

Oh yeah.

[Stephen Jones]

And. It was always a slight sense of relief when you did get inside. But I'd actually started making hats for Steve quite early on, so I was definitely, you know, in the fast lane as far as he was concerned. And we did always dress up out of respect. Funnily enough, last night I went to the King's Gallery to see the exhibition of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II clothes. And it was black tie. And it wasn't a dinner, it was just a cocktail party. But being in black tie seemed to be the correct thing, sort of out of respect to her and respect to her clothes.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, it's quite fun really, isn't it?

[Stephen Jones]

Yeah, it is quite fun. I did say to one of the attendees that it makes things very simple for a man to wear. And she said, you're a man, that's fine for you to say. Suddenly it becomes complicated.

[Bella Freud]

So I once I wrote this poem, my father actually ended up writing most of it. It was called Fashion Sense. And one of the lines went, your hat not what you say is news. And I wondered, what is hat etiquette? And because it's. It's such a frame, a hat and it can make or ruin. And how does somebody know?

[Stephen Jones]

Well, hat etiquette. Funnily enough, also last night I was quite having a flim flam because I wasn't sure whether to wear my little hat inside or not. Because I was always taught that hat etiquette was a gentleman takes his hat off inside. And certainly I couldn't sit down and have dinner with a lady wearing a hat. I just could not do it. But I thought maybe. And I actually asked a couple of people in the cloakroom, q should I wear a hat or not? And they all said, yes, you should do so. Just one thing, I'm not quite sure. Hat etiquette. You know, in cinemas in the 1930s they used to show a slide which said, ladies under the age of. No, ladies over the age of 30 need not remove their hats during the performance. Because of course in the cinema you couldn't see if you were sitting behind somebody with a big feather. That's it. But hat etiquette, why over the age

[Bella Freud]

of 30, because that would still block

[Stephen Jones]

the view regardless because I don't know, it would have been improper. Interesting that 30 was the cut off age. But hat etiquette, I mean, I think it's so funny because when people think of hat etiquette, they would always think of, oh, yes, you should be wearing a big hat with the veil and feathers on it, blah, blah, blah. But actually etiquette is when something is right for now, not for the past. So hat etiquette is wearing an acrylic beanie on a Monday morning in the winter. Etiquette is, you know, a baseball cap in the summer or a simple straw or something, because it's right for now. That's when fashion is right too. I mean, particular etiquette. I don't know. Etiquette's a strange thing. Do you remember 1,000 years ago in Harperson Queen, the social column was written by Betty Kenwood? Vaguely. Do you remember that? Very vaguely.

[Bella Freud]

I remember that name, yes.

[Stephen Jones]

Well, she would write about etiquette and who was at which party, isn't there?

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Stephen Jones]

And it just seemed to be such ridiculous and archaic world. I mean, I think for fashion designers, etiquette is maybe something that you play with as part of fashion because you play with politeness.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Stephen Jones]

You know, a notch collar on a man or woman is something about politeness. So that sort of what's socially acceptable in clothing. And that's just from a Western European point of view as well.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, of course.

[Stephen Jones]

And when we talk about fashion, I don't think we should talk about it in such a sort of isolationist world. You know, fashion is this. Or clothing is this wonderful global thing where everybody wears something different, I hope.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. Also, I suppose the word etiquette is pretty old fashioned, but the notion of it is really about modernity, isn't it? Like you said, it's about what's right. And, and then maybe it's easier to get it wrong with a hat. Do you think?

[Stephen Jones]

I mean, easier to get it wrong with that.

[Bella Freud]

Well, was that.

[Stephen Jones]

Yes, but you know, even sometimes when people get it wrong, it's funny, I, you know, occasionally I've been, you know, the millinery commentator for the BBC or Channel 4 or something like that, and they, especially during Ascot and they will say, oh, well, she looks terrible or something because she's got this huge hat in bright yellow with the pink dress and green high heels or something. But if she's having the time of her life, who am I to criticize? I think that's fashion I mean, I say Royal Ascot. I mean, the one which is a real cracker is the grand national, and I come from near Liverpool, so I have the authority to talk about such things. But that is sort of always amazing. But in fact, we have in Western Europe now, I mean, we have such a limited view of what is etiquette and what is acceptable. If you look around the world and even historically at the extraordinary things people wear, that the, the choice between should it be a black skirt or a beige skirt is so ridiculous it almost doesn't exist.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Stephen Jones]

You know, I mean, if you should be wearing. Considering should I wear that giant skirt or this huge feather headdress? If you were from a tribal society, certainly you'd be thinking that is there

[Bella Freud]

a favorite head shape that you have, or is there a head that can never wear a hat?

[Stephen Jones]

Is there a head that can never wear. No, I, I, it's always a challenge for me. And not so much British people, but certainly Europeans will say, oh, I can't wear hats. They don't suit me. Because I think they've just tried on something which is just a brim and a crown and just looks like a boater. They don't know the thousands of different shapes that they could wear and would be flattering. I mean, even if they chose a shape which was deeply unflattering to them, I could change it and make it so it did flatter them. So there's no, there's no limits.

[Bella Freud]

There's no limits.

[Stephen Jones]

No limits.

[Bella Freud]

I suppose when you think of it as a continuation, it's just. It's an accent.

[Stephen Jones]

It is an accent. It is sort of the accent of fashion. Absolutely. What sort of hats do you like to wear?

[Bella Freud]

I like to wear fedora. Yeah.

[Stephen Jones]

Yeah.

[Bella Freud]

And, you know, a sort of Hombag or a fedora.

[Stephen Jones]

Yeah. Something which is quite solid or something that's got.

[Bella Freud]

I always like the in between masculine and feminine and, and a beret, if I can pull it off, is the most glamorous thing on earth.

[Stephen Jones]

But a beret, certainly. Yeah. You can wear it every different way, and you don't just put it in your pocket. I wear a beret almost every day.

[Bella Freud]

Really?

[Stephen Jones]

Yeah.

[Bella Freud]

Johnny Rotten in a beret. I mean, that was the best thing every. It's just such a good look.

[Stephen Jones]

You know, when I curated this exhibition at the VA in 15 years. More, more, I wanted to include a beret. And I thought the ultimate beret wearer was Marlene Dietrich. And we went to the film museum, Oriel Cullen, the curator, and I went to the Film Museum in Berlin to ask them if we could borrow one of her berets for the exhibition that I was curating. And we curated. And they said, well, she had over a hundred. Gosh. I mean, literally, from Balenciaga or Dior, plain or embroidered, all the way to the equivalent of Camden Market.

[Bella Freud]

Fantastic. It's the coolest thing.

[Stephen Jones]

So beret is wonderful because it's very egalitarian as well, you know, good old.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, exactly.

[Stephen Jones]

Children, girls, boys, men, women, you know, duke structures. At the Queen's exhibition last night, she had a very cute beret, which was sort of nautical, soft cotton beret. Very, very cheeky.

[Bella Freud]

God, that's so charming. I love the idea of that. And how do you. Fashion is famously competitive and I, you know, it has to be. And I wondered, how do you deal with competition and how does it make you feel?

[Stephen Jones]

Competition? Well, I don't know. Yes, the world of millinery, if we're talking about hat competition, the world of fashion competition is a nightmare because there are so many clothes, so many collections, so much, so much, so much. But there is still sort of one look or two looks or whatever. The world of millinery is very, very small. And I'm. I mean, next year I'm going to be 70, so I do know so many milliners around the world. And I'm chairman of the British Hat Guild, so I'm in contact with so many different milliners and everybody does their own thing. Yeah, there is that room. So, yes, there is competition in a way, but also not. But I. I love the. I love the differences. And I. I think that it's funny if I should say this or not. It's funny when I think of you wearing a hat. I think if you're wearing a Philip Tracy hat. I saw Philip last night, you know, I'm his greatest admirer. People. People often say to us, my God, they're Stephen Jones, Philip Tracy. But for us, we're sort of. We were taught by the same extraordinary person, Shirley Hex. He's much younger than me, but it could never be a competition because I love what he does.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Stephen Jones]

I mean, it's a different point of view. And I know he really likes what I do as well, so. And we help each other, you know, we help each other. So in. In the world of hats.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Stephen Jones]

The. Is competition, I suppose, but I think it's healthy competition as well. If you become. If you think that you don't have competition, maybe you'll become lazy.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, I think that's Right. I also. I was reading that you were creating something once for John Galliano, and you broke down in tears saying, I can't do it, I can't do it. And John said, but you're going to do it, aren't you? And I thought, this sounds like torture, maybe to the outside world, but it's how designers hold each other up, by insisting on the best from each other. And did it feel like an act of love?

[Stephen Jones]

Should I told you what really happened? It's so funny. Well, I mean, now it's so funny. Now I can laugh about it. There was a show that John did and there was armor in it, and I made all the armor. And the armor was made. I mean, not personally, but I sort of worked on the patterns and worked with all the different atelier who were making it. Some was made from rubber, some was made from fabric, some was actually made from beetle metal, some was plastic. And I was working with all these different people and it was so much work. And about two weeks before the show, I just went into the studio and I said to. I burst into tears and said, john, I just don't think I can do it. Or even. I didn't say his name, John. And he looked a bit horrified. But Bill Gaten, who was John's pattern cutter extraordinary pack, came over to me and sort of put his arms around me and said, stephen, it'll be okay. What can we do? Stephen Robinson, who is his main assistant, his extraordinary main assistant, said, oh, we can get you extra help. Do you need more money? Do you? Whatever. And John quite calmly looked at me and said, but you will do it, won't you? And it was the most chilling but the most empowering thing I've ever heard. Because that's why he's such a survivor as well, because he knows that. But it was sort of very inspiring. Yeah, because he believed in me. And I thought, well, for a microsecond, maybe I could do it. In fact, in retrospect, what I should have done is realize had more faith in the people who I was working with, the fact that I could, that they believed in me enough to deliver to me and to us and to the group project. Because fashion is a group project. Yeah, it's one person, this thing, and we could create something beautiful. And it was extraordinary. But it's still the only time I've ever broken down like that was with Marc Jacobs. Oh, actually once with Claude Montana. All these different types. No, with Claude Montana. I'd been up for two nights making this hat. And he. And technically, they were very difficult to do it. They were almost like hoods in a nylon organza with a boning in them. And there was one end of it which had a few little puckers in. And he said, oh, they're not very well made. And I ripped off the girl's head, threw it on the floor and stormed out. Gosh. And I was just so upset.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Stephen Jones]

And then his sister came out and got me from the street where I was bing my eyes out and came back in. And I carried on working. And with Mark, it was a sort of fairly similar situation. And Katie grand came down and got me. I went back up. And then Mark was being sort of extraordinarily polite, saying, stephen, would it be okay if. Could you do a little change? And I just thought, no, Mark, I prefer you being like you are, and really direct and powerful and completely magical, too. But fortunately, things normally go right. They don't go wrong.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. Because I was going to ask you, what's the most extreme thing you've done for fashion?

[Stephen Jones]

Continue to make hats for almost 50 years now. I think that's the most extreme thing. Longevity. I don't know. The most extreme thing that I've experienced, and I think the making of the armor. I mean, it was helmets and armor and body parts. That was because, slightly, I was out of my comfort zone, too. I think the most dangerous hat I've ever made was actually worn by Jade Parfit. There's a company called Basso and Brook, and I made this hat which had dry ice in it. And I remember pouring, putting in the solid nitrogen inside a flap in her hat, fully aware that if I dropped it on her, it would have burned her terribly.

[Bella Freud]

Oh, my God.

[Stephen Jones]

But it didn't happen. And she's still gorgeous.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. You have to take these things in the service of fashion. You have to do these feats. And if you fancy someone and don't like what they're wearing, does it kill your attraction?

[Stephen Jones]

Yes. It's funny because I am a listener to your series, and I'm always fascinated about how politically correct people are when they say, you know, it wouldn't. But if somebody's badly dressed. Yes, it could not matter. But if somebody is well dressed, that's such a fantastic and joyful aphrodisiac. Do you think? I mean, if somebody's wonderfully dressed, you know, you love them even more. I mean, isn't that what fashion's about?

[Bella Freud]

I think completely.

[Stephen Jones]

And I mean, I'm sorry to sound so completely superficial, but I don't think

[Bella Freud]

there's anything superficial about fashion just because it's on the surface. It's a manifestation of the depth within. Sometimes people can wear things that are an alert to something and that you can either ignore or not ignore. And then some people have active phobias like Haida Ackerman said he had a phobia of buttons. And when he went to kiss someone once who was wearing a three button T shirt, he had to rush away at top speed because he couldn't bear it.

[Stephen Jones]

Well, lucky that he wasn't wearing John Skelton, British designer whose hallmark, I mean, I have some of his outfits and certainly you could not strip within about half an hour because there's 200 buttons on every outfit. Or a John Galliano bias cut dress which has got tiny little buttons down one side of it and no zip to help you.

[Bella Freud]

I liked Stefano Pilati saying he hates those cutaway socks that lots of people wear with trainers and skinny jeans. But if someone's cute, then it doesn't really matter about those things.

[Stephen Jones]

Yeah.

[Bella Freud]

Which is of course, everything.

[Stephen Jones]

It's.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Stephen Jones]

Yes. I mean, I think clothing. Yeah. Fashion and being a good dancer, that's what's important.

[Bella Freud]

Oh, yeah. Being a good dancer.

[Stephen Jones]

If people can't move. No, sorry.

[Bella Freud]

Because fashion isn't specially associated with activism in the way that music is. But I think good design as part of activism. Activism because it attracts interests and a desire to know more. I wondered how, how do you express your protest?

[Stephen Jones]

My protest. But hang on a minute. Just one other thing came into my mind. I remember at Vivian's memorial, which is the clothing that I'm wearing today is what I wore at Vivian's memorial. The, the great and the good of so many charities and activist organizations, sustainability, et cetera, et cetera, spoke at her memorial. And then Helena Bonham Carter stood up and said actually, thank you guys about the activism. But Vivian was really all about the clothes. Do you remember that?

[Bella Freud]

Yes, I do.

[Stephen Jones]

And she said, I get up in the morning and I'm, I can't remember. She said, this dumpy person. And then I put on Vivian and I'm this extraordinary person and an actress and successful. And that was, I, I, I, I thought that was a wonderful thing about fashion and all the meanings and the politics and everything behind it, because it is to. Maybe if it is a T shirt printed with a peace sign, maybe that is going to make you feel fabulous as well. But fashion is so sort of transformative. It can, it's such a point of View. But what. Back to your question. How do I. I think we've answered it, actually.

[Bella Freud]

It's almost that fashion is protest. You know, it's a. It's just a different guys, isn't it?

[Stephen Jones]

Yeah. You know, clothing is a banner, but on your body, it's a place to

[Bella Freud]

wear your heart on your sleeve, isn't it? Literally?

[Stephen Jones]

Yes. I mean, yes. You know, it's about making a statement, but belonging.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Stephen Jones]

Bella, I could talk to you about fashion.

[Bella Freud]

I wanted to ask you. You've worked with all the great designers in the world, and I read a hilarious story about you and Thierry Mugler, who you were really close to and worked with a lot, and then at one point, he eventually called the police on you.

[Stephen Jones]

What happened? Yes. Oh, my God. Well, I started my story with Thierry, starts with Asdinalaya. I went to see Azzardine, and before he had a company, and I showed him some hats, and he said, well, you know, I love your hats, but I don't do big shows or. But if I have a client, maybe I will be in touch. He said, but I know somebody who is doing a big show. And he telephoned Thierry Mugler for me, and, I mean, it was more happening then and there. And Thierry said, well, he has to be here quickly, because he was just leaving the company. And Assedine put his hand in his pocket and gave me money to get a taxi because I was going to get the metro there. It would take too long. So I met Thierry, and I worked. And it was the first show that I worked on in Paris, which was the Zenith show, when Pat Cleveland was winched down from the heaven. And I made so many hats for that, and it was Iman modeling, and I made her amazing headdress and angel's wings. And, yeah, I mean, it was extraordinary. And Jerry hall was in it, and Sayoko, all these extraordinary models. And Thierry and I became very good friends. And then what had happened is that Claude Montana asked me if I would do hats for men show, and he asked me, like, two years or something like that, and I'd always said no or avoided the phone call or whatever. And then I actually, in those days, could send a telex, and I sent a telex to Thierry asking if I could do Claude Montana men show, because at that time, Thierry wasn't doing men's shows. He did men's collection. And Thierry and Claude had been great friends. I mean, they became competitors, but they had been great friends, and they lived in un together. And I never heard anything back. And I sent Another letter as well to Thierry, and tried to call him up, and there was no reply. So I was in Paris a few months later, and I went to his office. I went and sat down, and basically he would not see me. And I was sitting and waiting. And then the chairman of the company came out and said that Thierry had said that if I didn't leave the property, he would call the police to come and take. Get rid of me. So that was a fashion flim flam if ever there was one. However, I have to say that many years later and just a few years ago, when he had his big retrospective exhibition at the Musee des in Paris, we saw each other for the first time in many years, and we really closely hugged and embraced and spent quite a time together, and it was lovely. And the saddest thing was, about two weeks later, he died.

[Bella Freud]

God.

[Stephen Jones]

So I'm very lucky. And we sort of made it up. But working, he was the most extraordinary designer. The refinement of proportions that he worked in were the most rarefied. I mean, it was as rarefied as Maboche, really, or Patou.

[Bella Freud]

Gosh.

[Stephen Jones]

I mean, more than gray, more than Gior was about the big splash, the glamour. So was Jacques Fat. So was Balenciaga to an extent as well. But his refinement was extra. So he had this incredible refinement, but this sense of theater as well, which is why people still look at his shows all these years down the line and find them extraordinary.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, they really were. And the shape of things and the fit was really unbelievably good.

[Stephen Jones]

Is my hatch on straight?

[Bella Freud]

No, it's on perfectly. Just in time to thank you so much for being on Fashion Neurosis. And it's so lovely to reminisce about times with Vivian and think about how things were and how things continue to be as well, and how fashion never dies. It's still. There's still such a source of taking you forward, and that feels very important at this time in life.

[Stephen Jones]

Yes, certainly at the moment. How trans fashion can transport you into the future, past fashion is a freedom. It's a wonderful thing. You can reinvent yourself with fashion, become the person you want to be temporarily.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, I completely agree.

[Stephen Jones]

And maybe it's temporary, but it can be permanent as well, if you want it to be like that.

[Bella Freud]

I think very much, Sarah, because I always remember when Vivian was started working in Italy in the. Was it. Yeah, in the 80s. And she was produced by a company there. And, you know, when we'd arrive and she. Everyone was incredibly sort of snooty about what she was wearing. And they were so conventional. And then when I went back a few years later, everyone was wearing the clothes she had. And she had had all this influence on these people from the local village and the town, and people who really were invested in their status as just, you know, making their lives a bit better. And it really made a huge impression to see the effect that she had and how empowering it was.

[Stephen Jones]

And not only empowering, but the extraordinary thing that I've observed, and I have many customers who come in to see me and they're wearing Vivian clothes and. And people friends of mine is it doesn't matter if you're skinny, skinny, skinny and really slim or very voluptuous, they work absolute magic on everybody.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Stephen Jones]

And I know of no other fashion designer who has been able to do that.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Stephen Jones]

I'm not even sure it was a conscious decision of Vivienne's. It's just what she believed. And how a woman can look.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Stephen Jones]

How magical.

[Bella Freud]

It's fantastic. Well, thank you so much, Stephen.

[Stephen Jones]

Thank you, Valent. Now we've done part one, can we do part two and three tomorrow, please?

[Podcast Narrator]

Yes.

[Bella Freud]

Thank you.

[Stephen Jones]

Thank you.