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- [00:00]
A
New collab alert Macy's is bringing true New York style to life with on 34th by Molly Rogers. This limited edition collection comes from an Emmy winning costume designer known for shaping some of the most iconic fashion forward looks ever seen on New York television. Defining what it means to dress like a main character in this collection. Those unforgettable style moments are reimagined into wearable pieces through Macy's on 34th line, which is known for its city inspired and everyday fashion. The result is a lineup that feels both elevated and accessible. Pieces that can move seamlessly from day to night while still making a statement. Each item is designed with intention, featuring unexpected twists and hidden gems like bold prints, dimensional florals, unique textures and thoughtful details that make every piece feel like a discovery. It's the kind of collection where every look feels curated, expressive and just a little bit dramatic in the best way. It's one of those rare fashion collaborations where the pieces don't just look good, they feel special, like something you won't see everywhere else. The overall effect is a wardrobe that captures the energy, confidence and individuality of New York style. Shop the collection now. You know when your hair turns out just right and it kind of sets the tone for the whole day, I feel like we're all chasing that, but none of us want to spend an hour getting to that point. That's why I've been really, really into lawn chair lately. I switched over to their Axia hair dryer and the first I noticed was how compact and lightweight it is. It just makes styling feel way more manageable, especially on those mornings when you're rushing but still want your hair to look put together. And I've been using their gloss shock treatment along with it, which has been such a nice addition for my super coarse, super curly, super frizzy hair. I'll spray it on damp hair, then blow dry and it just helps everything look smoother and more polished. Like that fresh from the salon kind of finish. But at home, which is extremely hard for me to get, it's been amazing. What's great is how these two work together. The heat from the dryer activates the treatment and you end up with soft, glossy hair in under 20 minutes. It's simple, it's quick and it just fits into real life. I definitely recommend it to anyone who wants an easy routine that still delivers super, super nice results. Go to launchhair.com and use code fashion to get 20% off your first order. That's L-A N G E H-A-I R.com and use code fashion for 20% off at checkout. Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Crux Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet. And today with me on the show are David and Kavi Moles, co founders of DSN Durga. We're talking the art of fragrance, the business of being married and working together, and so, so much more. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the art world, and much more. If you're interested listeners of Fashion People get a discount. Just go to Puck News Fashion People to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday, everyone. Hope you had a great week. Last night. I was at Bicester Village in the UK for a talk with Alex Eagle. We had a great time. I finally, finally got to check out Bicester after years of trying to go there. I have to tell you, I'm not just saying this because Bicester Village put the whole talk together. I really am not. This place is remarkable. The whole thing, it's called value retail for a reason. So it is discounted. So you go, I went to Saint Laurent. I got a skirt for 250 bucks or whatever. The experience is insane. It's so amazing there. I don't ever go to the mall, like, even in la. I don't. I'm not shopping in malls. It's not my thing. I. I can't even explain to you. Like, it's so luxe. It was incredibly nice. It's the only Dior, like, discount Dior store in the world. I went in. I got to go in. Like, as a journalist, I didn't have to wait in the line. Thank you, Bicester Village to let me go in and walk around. Amazing store. Like, I don't know how to explain to you. It's one of the most interesting things they do is, like, the visual merchandising looks like a real store. So the Ralph Lauren has a Ralph's Coffee. You look, you can't tell the difference between Madison Avenue Ralph Lauren and the Bicester Village Ralph Lauren. Anyway, it's really amazing. Belmont park in New York is owned by the same company. You should check it out if you're in the U.S. it was incredible. I had a great time. I got a lot of really nice stuff at St. Laurent. I got a pair of jeans. I got a tank top. I got two skirts. Maybe that's it. I didn't go nuts. Like, I didn't spend that much money because it wasn't that expensive. I highly. I have. And then I had dinner at Odalangi by myself, and it was. It was really nice. There's a Dales Ford Organics. We talked about this a bit on the podcast with Alex, who is amazing and is on a future episode, so you should check it out. But anyway, I had a great time. I'm heading back to Paris now. I'll be in LA next week. I'm excited to see many of you this week on Line Sheet. We had so much good stuff. On Tuesday, there was my interview with Everlane founder Michael Priceman, where he talks about his next venture that was inspired by Sheehan's acquisition of his old venture. Then on Wednesday, Rachel gave, like, the inside scoop on what's happening at Estee Lauder and why that deal to merge with Pooj really fell through. It's amazing. It's such a good piece. Lots of M and A heat, and it was really fun. If you're. If you want to know who l' Oreal might buy, you need to read it. Stephan, the CEO of whose surname I am not going to show different house right now, but the CEO of Estee Lauder, he spoke at the Financial Times Luxury Summit. And apparently he was amazing. Like, multiple people told me he was really good. So he's interesting. Everyone who works with him really likes him. I was talking to Rachel about it, but anyway, still tough times at Este. Good luck to him. Then on Thursday, Malik, our buddy Malik Morris published an amazing piece on Fear of God's Arrested Development. And then on Friday, Malik wrote about Target's turnaround attempt that involves potentially Isaac Murzrahi revival of that collaboration. Sounds like 99 and 99.9%. It's happening. They're not confirming, but I think it's true. It's definitely been in the works for a while. Anyway, it was a really amazing week. Online sheet. Always an amazing week on Puck, and I hope to see you soon. Enjoy this interview with Puck. Kavi and David. Kavi and David Moltz. Welcome to Fashion People.
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B
Thank you for having us, Lauren.
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C
Thanks for having us. Hi, Lauren.
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A
I'm so happy to have You. I think you're the first perfumers that I've ever got on. Yes.
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B
That is an amazing honor. That is an amazing honor.
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A
Wow. Yeah. We get to talk about fragrance. I'm so excited. So you two are the founders of DS and Durga. You're also married, which is. Is a part of. Of your. Your story. We were just kind of talking about, like, storytelling and marketing and all that stuff prior to. To going on. On air. But tell me how you two met and like. Oh, wait, before I forget, what'd you have for breakfast this morning?
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B
Oh, that's so fun. I just. You go. First off, she doesn't eat breakfast yet.
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C
I had tea, but then I eat. I eat my breakfast slash lunch at 10:40, kind of like on the dot every day.
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B
I figured this out. She used to just get really hungry always. And so we've called it a 1040 for a long time.
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C
Yeah, it's my. It's called a 1040. That's my. My first meal of the day. I had beans, roasted cabbage, roasted tomatoes, and squash.
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A
Amazing.
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C
Which is leftovers from dinner.
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B
No. Whole wheat tortilla and nutritional yeast.
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C
No. Oh, nutritional yeast. Yes, always. Nutritional yeast is like. I'm, like, made of nutritional yeast.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You two are not in the same place, which is. Is why you're. Why you're guessing what. What the other one had for breakfast.
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B
Yeah.
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A
David, live from Los Angeles, where I
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B
am at the Silver Lake Inn, and I needed to eat something quick, and it's next to erewhon, but I opted for the breakfast here. And I had two eggs over easy breakfast, potatoes and some bread and some tea.
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A
Oh, that sounds so good. The 1040. I think it's the future because I also do this a lot because, like, this morning I ate earlier, but usually because a lot of times in the mornings, I'm in my home office and just kind of going through stuff. And in the middle of the morning is when I'm really, really hungry.
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C
Yeah.
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A
And feel like I need to eat. And then I'm not really hungry again until, like, 5 and we hear here in 5:30.
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B
To me, breakfast is life. And I live for breakfast. And, like, I would never want to miss it. I can totally miss dinner. I don't need, like, a. A crazy, awesome, fancy dinner. I want breakfast and lunch and then, like, after that, whatever happens, happens.
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C
It also helps you from eating, which prevents you from eating too late, which is. Yes, you know, not good.
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B
I never eat late.
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A
No, I mean, that is really. What do they say? Breakfast like a king lunch. Like A prince and dinner. Like a popper.
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C
Popper. Yeah. Yeah.
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B
I love that. I feel.
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A
That's good. That's good. It's all about intermittent fasting, when you come down to it, no matter when you eat.
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B
Oh, that's what they say.
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C
That's true. Right. The longer you can go without anything. That's.
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B
I was thinking statistician. As a culture, we're all just overthinking nutrition and food changes every three years, and the foundation of life is something that goes beyond.
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C
But it's such an interesting topic of conversation. Just kidding.
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A
Truth.
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C
Kidding. No, it's not.
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A
Well, it's like the weather, but. But, yeah, my husband the other day was like, my vitamin D is too low. And I'm like, we live in California.
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B
How can this be a thing?
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A
Anyway, so now tell me how you all met, and then we can get into the. The business that you built together.
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B
You want to do this one, Kav?
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C
Yeah. David and I met on Avenue B in Manhattan outside a bar. He was outside one bar, I was outside another bar. They were, like, two bars away from each other. And, you know, people were just hanging out outside. It was summer, and we just started talking. He caught my eye, and I caught his.
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B
I kicked it, though. You didn't walk up to me. Come on. I walked over to you.
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C
Yes. He walked over to me and he started talking about Russian literature. He asked if I was Gujarati.
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B
Holy shit.
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C
You don't remember that part? Do you remember the Gujarati part?
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B
Yes, I know from. From what you said, but the Russian thing, that's surprising to me.
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C
But the funny thing is with, like, knowing different regions of India and, you know, we just started. We just started talking, and we went to a concert that night. I had tickets to a concert that night, and. And I asked him if he would come with me, and he did. And then we've been together from that moment.
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B
Yep.
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C
Wow.
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A
How long ago was that?
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B
06.
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A
2000.
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C
7.
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A
7.
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C
7. We met in 7. Almost 20 years. Yeah.
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A
Amazing. So it's my husband and I. Same thing.
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C
Oh, same thing. Like, together since moment one.
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A
Since 07? No, we've been.
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C
Since 07.
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A
Yeah, we've been together. We've known each other for 20 years, and we've been together for 18. Or it'll be 19 this year. Yeah, but.
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C
Yeah.
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A
Yeah, it's the same. Same timeline. You really grow up together when. When you do it like that.
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B
Oh, my God. Yeah, that's it. People always ask us for, like, business stuff because we've always worked together, and it's like, we basically, like. Like you said, we grew up together. We. We became true adults. We had business and kids, you know, all in this crazy bumble. I remember back in the day, people would ask, like, how do you guys work together? And we'd have some, like, BS line about, like, separation. But I think life, work, separation sort of ended for our civilization recently, so it doesn't matter.
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A
Anyway, I agree. Jens and Emma Greed are really anti work, life, separation. And Emma's book is coming out, and I feel like that's gonna start a whole dialogue about it because she's always like, no, of course we talk about work.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
After work.
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B
Yeah, but it's fine. And then, like, at work, if we had to talk about something personal, we would, you know, it's.
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A
It's.
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B
It's fine. It's just. It's totally fluid.
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A
So how did you all first start working together? What was it that, like, project?
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B
Yeah. So that's the thing, right? So, you know, DS and Durga is like, basically like Kavi and I's like, art project, right? We. We knew nothing about perfume, nothing about business, nothing about the perfume business. And we started, you know, we were falling in love when you were young and going away to, like, lots of used bookstores. Well, just going to, like, cute towns. And I was so attracted to, like, books about plants. And I wanted to know about plants. I wanted to know about all the plants growing around me in Brooklyn and wherever I go. And to this day, you know, I clock plants wherever I go. And I realized it was the sense of things that really interested me. And I. I was like, I want to start making some perfumes. So I just bought some oils and like, literally made, like, tinctures and weird stuff for Kavi and for friends. And it took off and. Sorry, it didn't take off yet because we just made it for friends. And Kavi was like, you know, we should start a perfume brand. We should just, like, make this. And, like, you know, and we knew lots of, like, you know, we knew the guys at, like, Freeman's and Ernest Sohn and In God We Trust. And so when we made something, they're like, this is rad. Let's sell it. And it. And it took off, and we realized that we could start making perfumes with really rich narratives. Like, I was in my office with tons of records and listening to, like, these classical records. And it's crazy because back then you could buy one of the most important symphonies of all time from the greatest conductor for, like, 199at a record store. And you'd get this big, beautiful piece of art, and you'd put the music on, and you could just listen to the music, but you could look at the liner notes, and the liner notes tell you everything about the composer and the music, the conductor. And I was thinking, like, why don't people do this with perfume? Why. Why wouldn't you have a perfume and then explain its entire world? Like, the sounds, the music, the color, the description. Like, every little thing about what you're smelling, like, it's this entire world inside of a bottle. Just like a symphony is on this little disc inside of a record, right? And that was, like, the genesis of who we became, because we realized we can just make these, like, gigantic art pieces that you wear on your skin and, like, enter through your nose and
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A
peruse around in God we Trust. Really sent me back to Brooklyn in 2007.
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C
Yeah, you did live here, right?
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A
Yeah, I lived in Carroll Gardens. So I was close. Close to the. They were in Carroll Gardens, right? The one of them.
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B
Well, yeah. Later on, it started in Williamsburg on. I worked at St. Helens Cafe on North 8th and Wythe, and it was across the street from that. And she used to come in. She was the first person I knew who was. Was successful. Like, in this DIY Brooklyn thing. She would come in and sew these hats that then went. I guess no one would use the word viral back then, but they were, like, all of a sudden, like, in all these magazines, and she was just sewing them in this cafe that we worked at, which was, like, to me, the epicenter of Williamsburg at that time. I always say that a lot of our success. Early success. Yeah. What did I say? Jatan.
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A
No, you didn't.
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B
Oh, St. Helens.
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C
Yeah.
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B
Because I worked at Jatan before. And so knowing people from Gitan and St. Helens, it's. That's what helped, because you just knew all of the players who were doing, like, the cool things, like, in arts and music and everything. Like, every actor came in and every musician. Like, you just knew all these people. It was. It felt like Haight Ashbury 1969 to me. Williamsburg around that time, it was. It was just this magic time. There were dogs, wild packs of dogs everywhere. Like, you know, it was crazy.
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A
It's interesting to me. I was in New York. I mean, I go to New York a lot, and I. I was in New York in December, and I went to High Valley Books, and I walked by seven. Is it five leaves and it's still around.
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B
So do you know that those are the Guys, Right. So. So.
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A
But it all started connected.
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B
Gitan is the first guy, Luke.
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C
He.
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B
He figured out this model where you have this highly beautiful, small, curated little thing and you cook the food someplace and then you bring it upstairs and. And you heat it up so it can be very quick and like not chasing Michelin stars, like not trying to be anything but like the coolest hangout for people. And then everyone who works there left and started their own cafe. So St. Helens. I worked there. It was. Noel was the owner and five Leaves were these other guys. So it's.
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C
Do you know Gitan's closing or closed?
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A
I heard it was closing.
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B
Unreal. Unreal.
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A
It's real sad.
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C
It's just weird. Yeah. So sad.
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B
Very weird.
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A
When I was the editor of fashionista.com we had office was next door to Mott street, on to Jatan, on Mott street. Right? That was the street. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I ate there like every single day.
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B
Of course. Roast chicken sandwich, couscous.
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C
David, did you serve her. Did you serve her coffee? I guess we're talking about totally different timelines now.
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B
I worked there in 2003. 2000.
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A
No. Yeah. No, this is post. This is 2010.
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B
I was like, all. It was crazy.
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A
Yeah. It's wild that it's. Well, when I went by and saw Five Leaves was still open, I was like, I guess, like the food is just good and there are people. So it could be open for another 15 years until they don't want it to be open anymore.
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B
Like, well, the world doesn't need any more blank streets. Right? We just need these.
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A
Well, I mean, that's a whole other thing. Does it? Sometimes I'm relieved when I see a blank street. I have to be honest, because I'm just like, at least it's coffee.
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C
I'll be. I'll be really. I. I'm relieved to see a Starbucks when I'm not in the city. Like when we're traveling on the road, then you're like, okay, that's something. But around here. Yeah, too many. Too much blank street. Especially in New York, a lot, I guess.
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B
I don't drink coffee, so. I don't. I don't. I guess it doesn't.
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C
We drink tea. That's why we both had tea for breakfast.
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A
Do you all still live in Brooklyn?
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B
Oh, yeah, Downtown, in fact. Downtown has the energy to me of the old Brooklyn arts, like, Williamsburg vibe because it's. There's lots of. Some blown out, like, no man's landsy kind of places. And like, that's that's what you need in order for artists to move into your neighborhood is it has to be like, some places that are just like dark and not much going on. And like, it's, it's hidden in downtown, like on the back streets.
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A
That's interesting. I've never thought of that area like that before. I, no one does.
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B
I think I'm stretching.
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C
No one does because it's, it not only does it not just have like one L train that will only take you to like one spot, it has like every single train right here. It's like an anonymous intersection of neighborhoods. Like, you're next to Cobble Hill, you're next to Brooklyn Heights, you're next to Fort Greene, but you're kind of in the middle of nowhere. And it's got this like, anonymity to it that we both like because we're not raising young children anymore. So, like, they're older and like, very independent. So we just like, we, we left Brownstone, beautiful Brooklyn like about a year ago to, to move into like a high rise, like, glass covered condo and have not looked back once. It's amazing. So convenient.
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B
It's like living in a mall. Like, just, it's like, it's like just being like, I'm done with like the crumbling brownstone dream that like, we all wanted to live and now live like, conveniently in like a mall.
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A
I gotta say, I lived at 99 gold in vinegar Hill, which is like that on the way to Vinegar Hill on the old. I'm sure that Cafe Gitan is closed, but it looks like Miami. Oh, that one's still open. That's funny.
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C
I think so.
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A
I don't understand that. But it's this building that's across from a Buddhist temple and it looks like Miami. And it was so clean. And anytime we have a fantasy of moving back, all my husband does is look and see how much the big apartment is there now. Because living in a. I would never, I would only live in New York if I was living in like a new clean building. Because the rat thing too.
- [21:18]
B
Oh my God, I thought, I have the craziest rat story ever. I'm not gonna do this conversation for it, but I had to fight like a giant mama rat. Like in our old house. Like, I, I, it was honestly like going to war. It was like one of the most stressful things I've ever experienced.
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C
It was like a parting gift.
- [21:31]
B
I was in a closed, I was in a closed thing under the stoop with like the giant attacking grandma rat. But like yes, the gangsters too.
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A
Like stolen packages.
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C
The doorman. No stolen packages.
- [21:44]
A
None. Yeah, that has been such a pleasure moving to Los Angeles and living a private driveway because I haven't had to worry about that for years. But oh, it's truly the worst. In our old development here, there was just like vans going around all day looking for stuff.
- [22:06]
C
Yeah, yeah, just looking crazy.
- [22:11]
A
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- [23:26]
C
class was only half the story?
- [23:28]
A
I'm Dr. Harini Bhatt, host of Hidden History. Every Monday I go where history gets mysterious. Vanished civilizations, doomsday prophecies, paranormal phenomena and events that science still can't fully explain. On Hidden History. I treat these moments like open case files. Not myths, not superstition, just incomplete explanations waiting for a closer look. Listen to and follow Hidden History available now, wherever you get your podcasts. So you start making these perfumes. How did you A, figure out how to make them and B, once it like started to pick up traction, how did you, when did you realize, okay, this is a thing that we could like do as our jobs as a real business.
- [24:12]
B
Okay, so the number two is easy. We, we got approached by Anthropologie to make them like a line of perfumes and they, they were like psyched and put in this giant order for us to make this custom perfume for them. And we couldn't believe it. Like, we. We. I think it was like 26, 000 or something. And we thought that was like $26 million. And we quit our jobs right away. She was an architect, but waiting tables. And we just put in our time and quit right away. So it happened super quick. Like, literally, we made our. I made my first perfume ever in December of. What's it. What year did you say we met? Gov 7 yeah. So I made my first perfume December of 2007. By. By February of 2008, we had something that said DS and Durga on it, like a label that we were, like, selling. And then we quit our jobs within. Within a year. And what was the first question? Oh, how did we do it? Yeah, yeah.
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A
Like, how did you figure out how to make a perfume?
- [25:05]
B
Okay, so I think that I can figure out any artistic discipline. I think that's how my mind works. Like, I. I actually am a musician. I make perfume, I draw, I write poetry. I think I can do, like, any artistic discipline because to me, basically, art is just the process of, like, creating an idea and, like, manifesting an idea in this world, and you just do it through different variables. So, you know, like, a perfume is a lot like a really great bro. A soup. You know, it's like a symphonic, like, thing with all the different instruments. Like those. Those two things make a lot of sense for what perfume actually is. The way I started is I bought a bunch of materials and started making things and wrote it all down and figured out, like, how each one worked. Understanding the relationships, you know, through experimentation. I. I love to just say it's. It's true what the Beatles guy said. It's. It's. You put in 10,000 hours to learn how to do the thing. But the interesting thing for us is that I realized early on that we could tell these extremely rich narratives through scents that I think lots of. I thought was missing from the industry where, like, there's a huge disconnect in the perfume industry where you don't really hear from the perfumer. Right. You hear from a brand that hires. There's. There's probably about 3 or 500 actual perfumers in the world who literally, like, make the formulas and they make, like, everyone's perfume. And so most perfumes that you know are made by, like, the same 100 people. And there's just this disconnect that you don't get to hear from those people. It'd be like if. If you loved all these bands, but, like, everyone wrote the songs of those bands. And then you talked to the people in the bands, and you said, like, oh, I love that song you sang about, like, how you got your heart broken in July. And they're like, oh, no, no, no, I, I, that didn't happen to me. I just singing this song that somebody else wrote. Like, for us, we actually were the brand DS and Durga, but I still am the perfumer. She is the designer. There's no middleman. No one's helping us make our creative. And so I think that the opportunity, the reason I'm getting back to what I was saying, the reason that there's that authenticity to our approach is you can. It's so easy to explain the whole world of our perfume because I actually made it. Whereas if someone else made it, I have to sort of invent things, be like, oh, well, this was my grandmother's house, and it comes with the most premium rose from France. You know, like, for us, it's. We, we realized we could tell a really rich narrative about a specific room in a town in a certain year in Salem, Massachusetts. And the reason that we're telling this is because that what happened in there changed music forever, you know, like, so, so we, we realized that you can make very rich narratives the way you make, you know, narrative poetry, literature, movies, that kind of thing.
- [27:56]
A
And Kavi, what is your role as the designer? Like, is it helping to frame up this story? Like, how do you come into the creative process?
- [28:07]
C
So we say that I, you know, I'm building, like, the city around the world that David's building with the perfumes. So I'm building, like, the, the packaging. So for 15. For 15 years, I've done it. I did it all on my own. So what David is saying, like, all our creative is, he and I, it's. I have much more help now, nowadays, in the past few years. So we have, like, a much bigger creative team than just me, visual creative team. So I built. I do the packaging, I do the branding, I do the designs. I do the artwork on the candles. I have a big hand in the store designs, naturally, because I was an architect. And having our five physical stores is, like, a major moment for me to have, like, a say in the, the physical expression of the brand. The stores are super important to me because it's, like, the one place where we can fully tell the story in the way that we want it to be told and, like, interact with our customer in the way that, you know, we, we want to interact with Them and, you know, have our full line represented because we really view everything as. As a. As a whole collection. Like, we're always thinking of, you know, how is the collection evolving, what does it need, what holes we're trying to fill. We're always trying to put more, you know, originality, original ideas out into the perfume world. So the store is a particularly great place for us to do that. It's, you know, like, working directly with the customer. We have these things called Studio Juices that are launches that we do a few times a year, and they're limited edition and just direct drops of perfumes. So what's great about them is that David can, you know, kind of make a perfume that isn't really like, not labored over. It's like, it's as authentic of a, you know, artistic creation as anything else he makes. But maybe he's just, you know, exploring some kind of crazy idea that isn't necessarily a commercial idea, you know, that isn't necessarily. We'd have to worry, like, oh, are they going to like it in this market? Are they going to like it that. Is it going to sell here? Is it going to sell there? It's just like a very pure artistic expression. And then I will take that and this is how it generally works with all perfumes, Studio Juice, or our permanent line. I'll take, like, his. His idea. We'll talk about, like, what it means, what the colors are, what the vibe is, what the time of day is, what the season is, what, like, where is it, when is it? And then, you know, translate that into some, like, special artwork so it looks like very different from our normal perfumes. And it's just a fun kind of like, charrette for both of us to, like, quickly, like, work on something and put it out there. And there's something that we've always loved about the impulsive nature of it and the impulsive nature of design in general. Like, sometimes, like, his favorite things are things that he's like, this is the first. The first iteration, and I made it.
- [30:59]
B
And I'd say almost always. And not just in me. It's. It's also in yours. It's also in music. The first take.
- [31:06]
C
Come back to the first. To the first thing, you know, because you just got like, that kind of. Yeah. Raw energy. And so we both like that. And Studio. Studio Juices are a chance for us to, you know, put that out into the world and just be like, this is my first thought of it.
- [31:23]
B
I think once you put 10,000 hours into something you can trust. The raw energy thing. Like, when you're starting out, you need to. You need to fall and stumble and work super hard to make everything perfect. But once you have that, like, if Paul McCartney were to go into a studio today and plug in, he's going to write something that's awesome, that's just going to, like, come out, then he'll, like, you know, agonize it about it a little bit, but he just knows you just know what you're doing.
- [31:45]
A
Yeah. And you mentioned, like, that there are a few people who make all these different fragrances for all these companies. And maybe we can talk a little bit about how the market has changed since you all entered it. But, like, David, do you feel like you have a nose? Because these people are, like, basically positioned in the market as having, like, a special sixth sense or something. And to be able to understand scent more, do you feel that you have that, or do you feel like you have a brain that can, like, access that?
- [32:20]
B
You know what? I. I know the answer. I. I wasn't sure until I got Covid and I lost my sense of smell for two days. And I realized, oh, the entire thing that is built every. Whatever I say, whatever the reason, I am confident speaking about perfume and what we're doing is because I know what I'm smelling, and if I lost that, it would be a lie. So it's the nose. Like, yeah, I. I do think what something that you're getting at that you could probably train a person. So I have synesthesia. I wrote. I have a substack, and I wrote this article that's awesome about synesthesia that explains, like, what I mean by synesthesia. You know, like, when I smell things, I see colors, and colors have a sense. I think I have a innate sense of how to translate one thing, one idea from one discipline to another. I could very easily make a soup that is based on a movie, or write a script that is about a song, or make a song about a perfume or make a perfume about a book. Like, it's just changing the variables. And. And so for. And synesthesia is one of the ways that makes sense for me. So I taught myself to make perfume. Just figuring it out, like, understanding in my nose how things happen, and then realizing that you can create realistic, real world objects and places and atmospheric conditions in perfume and weave them together to tell, like, a really rich narrative. So we have, like, Big Sur after rain really does smell like you walked into a eucalyptus grove off the side of Highway 1 that I went to, like, I, I was actually there and experienced this thing and then I just reworked it into something that, that smells that way. So yeah, I'm not trained. Right. I'm a self taught perfumer. But of course, yeah, the whole thing with nose, I don't use the word nose because I'm not trying to say DS and Dirk is like a very American brand. Right. Like we're made, everything is made in New York. A lot of perfume companies are either French or like pretending to connect to France in a way. Like you'll always hear like, oh, it's made by the best French perfumers with the best ingredients. And like that, that doesn't mean anything, you know, like, so to me it makes no difference. Like, you know, we're made in New York and we sort of have that irreverent spirit for. Actually I hate that I use that word because I always say like, I feel very reverent of the perfume industry and all other perfumers and other brands where the whole idea of being a disruptor I think is like boardroom bs, you know, like if you're, if you say you're disruptive, how can you be disruptive? So I feel very reverent of those, of the whole industry that came before and, and is there. It just doesn't influence us so much because we're just making like little works of art that are much more influenced by other art forms. So we're not like, you know, feeling as. I, I don't, I don't think I've ever. It's rare that I smell a perfume and I'm like, oh, I want, I wish I. We made something like this, you know.
- [35:19]
C
Yeah.
- [35:20]
A
What was your first like certified hit from a fragrance perspective and why do you think it, it did.
- [35:27]
B
Well, okay, so old school Brooklyn, like cowboy grass that, that like if you smell it, it smells like a perfume made by someone who doesn't know how to make perfume. It's so hairy and out there and like it's an herbal vetiver, so it already has like really pungen and basil with like beautiful little like rose flowers and, and lavender. Awesome. Like switchgrass vetiver kind of base. But there's this also like this musk. The weird thing about is there's this like very pleasing musk underneath that. So it's like a strange like cowboy trail dust smell.
- [36:01]
C
The way that we started making that scent, by the way, Cowboy Grass, which was technically our, our first fragrance that, that is, that is still with us today. We bought a distiller. So the way like you you make. You make like oils from different natural materials is like. Or some of them is to distill it. So like we bought a glass distiller. It looks like something you'd, you know, find in a high school science lab. You stuff the top with like pine needles or. At the point, David was working at Pure Food and Wine, and so he had access to like.
- [36:29]
A
Oh, wow, David.
- [36:30]
C
Yeah, it's another. It's another podcast, Wild.
- [36:33]
B
I was there.
- [36:34]
A
What's your memoir coming out?
- [36:36]
B
I know that documentary came out. I let. I had left by the time the crazy, like, guy came in, but it was. It was a wild spot.
- [36:43]
A
I remember that was like where you went on a date, like a fancy date in that era.
- [36:48]
C
So a fun fact is actually David and I first met at Pure Food and Wine a few months before we met on the street. He was my waiter. Oh, of two weeks.
- [36:59]
B
Okay, I thought you said, weren't you my waiter? Like, we started talking on the street, remember at the bar? And then she was like, wait, weren't you my waiter at Pure Food and Wine two weeks ago? And I was like, oh, yeah, I remember you.
- [37:08]
C
And he let me and my friend smoke cigarettes in the back in the back garden.
- [37:12]
B
Yeah. I was like, just be chill. Just be chill.
- [37:13]
C
And then a few weeks later, I ran into him downtown. I mean, this all sounds like a very like pre iPhone New York story, because it was. But like, yeah, we just like ran into each other again and remembered each other from that night at. When he was serving us outside.
- [37:29]
A
Was your first date at Freeman's?
- [37:32]
C
Oh, my God.
- [37:33]
B
Probably one of the first. Oh, no, I went to some place. I remember some like. Oh, I forgot. It was like a Belgian in Chelsea. Yeah, Belgian place in like Chelsea.
- [37:41]
C
Yeah. He had access to all these citrus peels. So we're on like tangent three right now. He had access to all these citizens.
- [37:46]
A
This is what it is.
- [37:48]
C
So we would pile the top of the distiller with like organic citrus peels, pine needles from his parents backyard in Massachusetts, and distill our own pine. Pine oil and like orange oil. But like for like a.
- [38:02]
B
It was ridiculous.
- [38:03]
C
Of peels. You get like one drop. We didn't know what we were doing, but we were so caught up in Brooklyn, DIY everything. Like, we're like, we're gonna. We're gonna. We're gonna make it all ourselves. Gonna make the oils ourselves. We're gonna like. We're like. We would have done everything from scratch. It was like, we can make the paper pulp to make the Labels, like, I mean. Oh my God. I remember, like Extreme. Yeah. Remember I was trying to make paper diy.
- [38:25]
B
So crazy. The only thing we ever used though, the, the pine thing, I literally did make a pine shaving tonic for cowboy grass.
- [38:33]
C
But then also for cowboy grass, you made.
- [38:34]
B
Oh yeah, yeah.
- [38:35]
C
He made a tincture of like Persian lime peels and rose petals and then that like it was it called a tincture and then you soaked it in alcohol and grapefruit and then that was just one ingredient in cowboy grass. Then there was like all this other stuff. It was very labor intensive. That's not how it's made today, by
- [38:54]
B
the way, but it's a backwards way to do it.
- [38:56]
C
Yeah, it was really from. From scratch.
- [39:00]
A
Well, that's kind of. I'm sure that's like the basis of why you all have been so successful, is that it did come from like all this pressing and, and like extraction that something good came out of it.
- [39:14]
B
But that was, by the way, early on because I want to just say like Debaser and I don't know what those are. Like our actual massive hits, right? Like Debaser we made in 2015. Fig fragrance went completely viral. If you look up like best fig fragrances, it's always on the list. And then I don't know what was around 2018 we made, you know, we were the first brand to make like a fragrance enhancer, like, which was like really inviting you to layer fragrances, which we all know is like massive is everywhere now. So. And it continues to be like our, our best selling fragrance.
- [39:43]
C
And we love being the first to do something like that. Yeah, I mean, we're not the only. But you know, like, that fragrance originality is the best.
- [39:52]
B
I mean layers, you know, if you have a dinner party, if we have a dinner party tonight, like I want to like theme out and like make the music go with the cocktails with like the food. Like that. That's. That's just like joy of life, you know, it's extended into DS and Durga, but like I love like world building theme stuff, you know, like that's.
- [40:09]
A
That's what it is.
- [40:13]
B
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- [40:41]
C
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- [41:09]
A
So 2015, you had this big hit. When did you start to think like, okay, this can be a big business and you all have an investor, Manzanita Capital, which is like, they invest in a lot of beauty brands. They're very known for their taste. So they, the stuff that they've invested in and we could do a list, but like, it's all good stuff. Like nothing is like Tactic Diptyque for sure. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, and, and Byredo, I assume, like is one of your biggest competitors. So what did you all think as you were kind of building this business? And then simultaneously there's like a bigger, this like, rise of nice niche fragrance as a sort of leading kind of fragrance that a fashion consumer buys. So like Le Labo DS and Durga Byredo. And I'm sure there's a few, I guess, like Frederick Mal to a lesser extent. But like these things that were. It wasn't a celebrity's name, it wasn't a designer's name. It wasn't just like, I don't know, I'm trying to think of a fragrance that isn't connected to one of those two people. But it wasn't like an Estee Lauder fragrance or whatever.
- [42:22]
B
But wait, those are Estee Lauder? I mean, those. Every brand you just mentioned is owned 2. Two are owned by now, but when
- [42:28]
A
they launched, they didn't. And the sort of rise of niche fragrance as the sort of leading kind of fragrance that people go to or a certain segment of the customer. What did you all. What do you think was happening in the culture that. That became the, the way people wanted to buy.
- [42:47]
B
So easy. Just think of food, right? Just think of food. So like in my parents day, if, if everyone knew the latest like record that was coming out, the new Bob Dylan, like the way they talk to each other was music. And Kavi and I too, growing up, it was our friendships with people and stuff is very much about music. It became about food around like, I don't know, the year 2000. And like everyone loved like Bourdain and like, everyone knew the new restaurant and like our whole generation became obsessed with like food and ingredients. And I think perfume became a little bit like that. I don't think it's. I don't know if it's going to go as big as, as food, but there's just interest to the artistry of the thing behind it and all the ingredients. And so niche is a. Being into niche just means that you like, actually care about like what's going into it and the artistry behind it. And it's not just like a fashion accessory. Now the strange predicament we're in with this that DS and Durga is not affected by at all is we are the perfumers. We know what we're doing. We're actually making our own things. Whereas what's the difference between a niche brand and a mass brand if it's all made by the same perfumer? And it's all like briefs and like boardrooms and stuff like that. Right. So I don't think we feel very, I feel like we feel like an outlier where we're this like art project that's like going global for people who love really rich, immersive fragrances, you know, and we don't look to other perfume brands too much in that regard. I have tons of respect for them, like you said, all the brands you said, and tons of respect for them. But it's just a little bit of a different thing because I am the perfumer. The ones you mentioned, the founders don't make the perfume. Right.
- [44:33]
C
I think it was also just time that like, people, you know, there were more offerings and people like us found that they could figure this out. And you know, it's a very kind of. Perfume is a very secretive, top down, you know, European, you know, industry. And I think once people started sort of cracking at these walls and, and being like, oh, I can, I can figure this out. And, and there, you know, when we started there were probably like, that we knew of like 20, 30 niche, like independent brands that we knew of. Now there's thousands. It's a really, it's a really big thing. And that's happened, you know, with, with the rest of beauty. Also, like, there's so many smaller color brands, cosmetic brands, and people just said, oh, we don't need to just buy these same, you know, dozen department store brands. We can make our own thing. And there's so many beautiful ways to do it in perfume. Like there's so many brands that have unique point of views, just being one of Them. And you know, I think people just saw that it's possible to, to, to have more offerings and you don't.
- [45:39]
B
That, that's, that's such a good point. Like, like, I've never said this, but like DS and Durga. The success of DS and Durga is good for the perfume industry because it proves that you can be an outsider, do what you want, make like weird artistic things and grow it the right way to resonate and so resonate with, with a larger audience. So now like, you know, you can start a brand and you, and you can do this and you can think, you know, before you had to like go to perfume school and you have to. I still think a lot of people will use the trained perfumers so. Because it's not easy to do, but I think it just proves that there's so much more interest in perfumes, potential to live at the level of other art forms and it's such an accessible art form. Like you, you might love all these paintings. We can't afford them. You know, like you, you maybe you can't go to the fanciest restaurants, but like a bottle of perfume is. You can like buy this little artwork and wear it for like a couple years, you know, or you can have a wardrobe of fragrance, which is what I've always said is, is awesome. Like, I look at, you know, I wouldn't want to listen to the same record every day. And a wardrobe of fragrances, like inviting you to interact with art in your everyday. Like for you and yourself. Like, you choose what music you're going to listen to, you choose like what beverage you're going to drink in the morning, you choose what you're going to wear and you choose what fragrance you're going to wear. It's creating the world you want around yourself and I love that potential for perfume.
- [47:13]
A
Yeah. How do you all feel about Kavi? You mentioned there are thousands of these niche players now. And I think one of the things that happened to you and a couple of the other brands that had really strong brand identities because of the fragrance, but also the design, there's so much copying and obviously it's diluted. So like the fragrance isn't going to be as good. The imagery and the visuals and the typeface isn't going to look as, as perfect or whatever, or ideal is maybe a better word. But like, how do you all deal with the fact that like there are brands that just, just completely copied your identity?
- [47:53]
C
Well, you know, we said like, we really value originality, just like in our, in our Bones, both David and I, like, were, you know, kind of not whatever, whatever you call it back then, like the alternative kids, like punk kids, goth kids. Like, we just never, you know, wanted to be like everyone else. We wanted to be different. We've always valued that at DS and Durga. And I'll just speak for myself now, since you've asked me. You know, we're evolving. We're like those, those brands that you mentioned that, that those bigger brands that sold, like, I just view it as like, they are sort of graduating. I mean, it could happen to us one day. I don't know. Like, it's possible right now. I, I, as the brand grows and as things evolve and we're older as like, people and a brand, there's this Mies bandara quote that sticks with me, that it's, I don't want to be interesting. I just want to be good. And, you know, not, I still still want to be interesting. But the sentiment of, you know, like, focusing on, like, a product and a brand with longevity, with, like, you know, quality, like, built into it. Like, we want to be here for 100 years, you know, so we're not, I'm not as focused now on trying to shock people or, you know, kind of like turn them off in a way, which were, which were things that we were trying to do. We still want to be like, visually stimul and like, have you do a double take and, and still put out perfumes that are like, not, not super commercial. But we're also here for the long run. So, you know, it really affects, like, all the output that we, that we make because, you know, we, we always have that in the back of our mind, like how to, like how to have the brand reflect something long lasting, honest, specific. Just like the, the codes sort of evolve. It feels like growing up to me, you know?
- [49:41]
A
Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. I think. Like, I guess another, another question for you is category wise, I mean, you only have five stores, so you could have 50 stores globally and that wouldn't seem crazy. Do you want to do other categories? Are there things like you both have myriad interests. Is it something where you think, oh, I would like to go into more into color cosmetics or some other area of beauty or a physical product or stuff you guys think about.
- [50:13]
B
So we're perfume, period. That's the most important thing, like the hierarchy of fragrance items. Perfume is the top, and that's the art. We're in it for the art. And there's so many ideas in fragrance that we haven't been Able to get out like that I still want to make. I think we want to be able to have lines and, and different ways of interacting with our perfumes. There are obvious, like, category expansion that we will be doing, like, just more body products and stuff because the customer wants that and we need to make more of that. It just takes a lot significant time and investment and like Kavi was saying, to do it right and make it, make sure it's good, like, would never make skincare. I do think I have synesthesia and I love color, so. And Kavi loves makeup. I mean, I don't know, maybe someday we could do that. It's not like on the books or anything. I think we're still just trying to make like, the world's most like, interesting, thoughtful, narrative perfumes. Right. And so, like, if you were in a band and you were like, if you were to ask the Strokes, like, do you. Do you guys want to get into painting and other stuff? Like, they might be like, we're trying to make like, the best albums, you know, like, yeah, sure, they'll paint on the side. We have things on the side of perfume that we're very interested in. Like, for instance, music is.
- [51:30]
C
Is.
- [51:31]
B
Is everything to me, but I'm making music and. And putting them onto our playlists now more and like, really being able to use my, like, skills or like, what I love about music to like, talk about the perfumes. And I write all the copy and. And so. So I think that it's still just. It's a fulfilling artistically to continue building, like, word music and image for perfumes. And, like, I don't see us getting tired of that.
- [52:01]
C
Yeah, I think we're trying to deepen our archive right now. And the way that we would, you know, venture into other things is. Is through collaborations right now, which we. Which we like doing. And we're really selective about them. They have to be meaningful. They generally have. Have been with partners that we personally know. It just feels so just natural and authentic to us personally. I would like to do some more collaborations that are. That are not necessarily scent based, that are more like object based. Just like, so I can like, you know, pursue more of my interest in like, architecture and design. But, you know, I think first our priority is really like, like I said, deepening the archive and just making sure that we've got like, everything that we want to achieve going in perfume, because we still have a lot more. And then I think that's what's kept us, you know, around for so long, is that we're pretty laser focused on perfume and it's just like the point of view is just so like singular.
- [52:56]
B
And the TV thing is cool too. We did, I did this one episode of Perfume Quest where I made a fragrance for Joe Talbot, the singer of Idols. And we've always talked about it's just so expensive and time consuming, but we'd like to do that for more people and, and make that a thing. So that goes back to like lines and stuff. But I think having a perfumer actually talk about perfume, like live on camera is so important for pushing perfume further towards the arts and the masses.
- [53:23]
A
You know, it's interesting. Okay, one final question. You all entered the beauty industry without even realizing it, I assume. In, you know, almost 20 years ago. What was like the thing about the beauty industry that was so silly to you when you started, that has started to change because of brands like yours?
- [53:41]
B
Well, I think in general the cardinal sin of like great art is taking yourself too seriously. And so this is not, this is not just the beauty industry, but it's rampant like where you just see people like just talk about things in a way that's just, there's like, no, there's a lack of self awareness. It's just taking things like way too seriously and that like that ruins it. But I will say this, if you read like On Camp by Susan Sontag. Yes, I love. There's this whole thing, there's a dichotomy in art and in thinking and behavior that is very Plato, Aristotle and for her there's the very like the people who are really taking things seriously versus camping, like having fun and like, so for instance, like Beethoven, like that's really serious music. Mozart, who's like, you know, just as great, even maybe better musician and stuff, he's like having fun with it and camping. And I, I think that there's, that's a really important thing to understand when you're making any artistic exploration is are you, you know, are you going full serious? Are you having fun with something? And in this world where irony and like, you know, postmodern and just knowing all the references of the decades and stuff, like things tend you have to be a little bit self aware of what you're doing because to come off self serious just seems. Looks ridiculous.
- [55:16]
C
Yeah, there's, there's more humor and wit and like more risks being taken even by brands that like, it's not necessarily like baked into their, into, into their messaging really, but like on social and just like marketing, they people are like, everyone appreciates like a little like light heartedness and you know, something like just fun and humorous and like I don't think you would have seen that like long ago from so many brands.
- [55:42]
A
Thank you both so much. It was such a pleasure.
- [55:44]
B
Thank you for having us.
- [55:45]
A
We appreciate you.
- [55:46]
C
Thanks so much Lauren. It's great to talk.
- [55:49]
B
Thank you so much.
- [55:51]
A
Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. The show is produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to Puck co founder John Kelly, Executive Editor Ben Ben Landy, producer Maya Tribbett and Director of Editorial Operations Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, Kelly Turner and Bob Tabador.
- [56:15]
B
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