Annagram

Summary

FASHION PEOPLE – “Annagram”
Host: Lauren Sherman
Guest: Michael Grinbaum (author, “Empire of the Elite”)
Date: July 31, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features Lauren Sherman in conversation with journalist and author Michael Grinbaum, focusing on the present and future of legacy fashion and lifestyle magazines—especially under the Conde Nast and Hearst umbrellas. The pair dissect why some iconic titles like Self and Glamour no longer exist in their former glory, examine current strategies for magazine survival, and explore whether events, brand cachet, and new editorial leadership can rejuvenate these storied brands. The discussion is peppered with personal anecdotes, industry inside-baseball, and keen observations about how fashion/media culture has evolved.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. State of Magazines: The Death of Titles like SELF & Glamour

• The Demise of SELF Magazine:

  • Michael recaps the history of SELF (launched 1979) and its shutdown by Conde Nast, citing management’s desire to focus on “core magazines.”
  • “And the reasoning from Conde, from Roger Lynch, the Conde CEO, was just that, you know, it was a title… that had sort of become a minor Conde title.” (13:55, Grinbaum)

• Missed Wellness Opportunity:

  • Lauren and Michael agree SELF missed the wellness media boom, not due to editorial missteps but because wellness/fitness infiltrated broader media and digital platforms, erasing the need for a niche publication.
  • “The history of Self magazine goes back to 1979… and it feels like it missed this opportunity to really take a very forward position in that wellness media space.” (12:44, Grinbaum)

• Glamour’s Fate:

  • Now a “zombie website” mostly producing shopping links, Glamour, once Conde’s mass-market cash cow, has been reduced to a skeleton staff and minimal cultural presence.
  • “Glamour… it was hugely profitable and honestly paid for a lot of those incredible photo shoots that were in Vogue and Vanity Fair… now just a shell of what it was.” (24:43, Grinbaum)

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2. The Business Model Dilemma

• Shift From CPG Advertising:

  • Loss of consumer packaged goods (CPG) ad dollars gutted magazines like Glamour, Allure, and SELF; luxury advertisers remain, but spend less.
  • “When the bottom fell out on CPG marketing… those companies just stopped advertising as much with magazines, because… [now] you just get your info on TikTok.” (17:07, Sherman)

• Consolidation and Core Brand Focus:

  • Conde Nast has centralized resources around key brands (Vogue, Vanity Fair, GQ), letting “B-tier” titles fade out. This mirrors a broader media trend toward focusing on what’s “elite” and culturally resonant.
  • “Is there wisdom to shutting down… B-tier titles… and focus more of your resources and your money on… a core portfolio of brands?” (26:10, Grinbaum)

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3. What Makes a Magazine “Matter” Now?

• Events & Experiential as Authority Makers:

  • Both co-hosts see high-profile events (Met Gala, Vogue World, Vanity Fair party) as crucial brand builders, though not always profitable or scalable.
  • “Is it the party? Is it Vogue, Vogue World? Or is it a publication that people are like, ‘I still need’…?” (28:25, Sherman)
  • Michael: “The attention that this company still receives is… pretty astounding, really.” (31:06)

• Emotional Resonance & Nostalgia:

  • Younger generations fetishize vintage magazine culture for its tactile, exclusive qualities—akin to the vinyl resurgence—suggesting an enduring yearning for aesthetic authority and gatekeeping.
  • “There is like this real fetish for it… the cliche is to compare it to vinyl records.” (48:36, Grinbaum)
  • “The conversations around Conde… are the most discussed, even if people aren’t even reading [the magazines].” (31:48, Grinbaum)

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4. Leadership, Editorial and “Democratic Snobbery”

• Vogue Under Chloe Malle:

  • Chloe Malle’s Vogue (per Michael) is experimenting with access via projects like the Vogue Book Club, blending “glamorous, starry” events with elements ordinary readers can join—a blend he calls “democratic snobbery.”
    • Memorable quote: “There’s a Mary McCarthy quote… that Vogue had a democratic snobbery, a snobbery for everyone. And that line has always kind of stuck with me…” (42:17, Grinbaum)
  • Lauren’s assessment is that Vogue must balance brand management, broadening its footprint, and retaining enough “specialness” for insiders.

• Vanity Fair’s Rebound:

  • Mark Guiducci credited for revitalizing Vanity Fair, making it a genuine competitor once more.
  • “It’s been such a relief that Vanity Fair got better. It’s more competitive with everyone… we all want competition. It forces all of us to do better.” (60:43, Sherman & Grinbaum)

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5. Print vs. Digital

• Does the Print Magazine Still Matter?
  • Lauren wonders whether feeling obligated—or inspired—to read print should be Vogue’s aim, given how many “pass-around” moments now come from digital.
  • Michael likens the transition to changes at The New York Times, where digital trumps print placement.
  • “Is it more important to manage the brand… or do we need people to be excited about the magazine the way they’re excited about Interview?” (45:31, Sherman)
  • “Where your story appears in print just doesn’t matter anymore; we were all taught to care so much about being on the front page.” (46:17, Grinbaum)

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6. The “Niche that Feels Mass” Paradox

• Lauren: “Mass only works if it feels niche these days. Even if it is mass, it needs to feel niche.” (51:28)
• Michael: Argues for risk-taking—“maybe they should go for broke… and be incendiary and provocative.” (50:08)

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7. The Hearst Opportunity

• Hearst vs. Conde Nast:
  • Hearst brands (Esquire, Harper’s Bazaar, Town & Country) still have strong legacies but perhaps lack Conde’s flamboyant brand obsession.
  • New leadership from a TV background signals a pivot to experiential—a crowded but “right” market.
  • “Harper’s Bazaar is older than Vogue… it really still has brand recognition. There’s a real opportunity for those titles.” (53:31, Grinbaum)
• Town & Country:
  • Under Stellene Volandes, T&C has become more relevant, cheeky, and competitive with Vanity Fair.
  • “What Stellene did at T&C… bringing that brand back after years of being out in the wilderness—there’s so much potential there.” (58:56, Grinbaum)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Magazine Deaths:

  • “Sometimes brands just should die… or go dormant. Vanity Fair was dormant for, what, how many decades? Sometimes it should just end.” (24:43, Sherman)

• On Why PEOPLE Still Care:

  • “There is still such a sense of ownership people have. Like, they really care about the fate of these magazines…” (31:06, Grinbaum)

• On Vogue’s Identity:

  • “The ‘you can’t sit with us’ cool table at the cafeteria… doesn’t really quite work anymore in our Internet age.” (41:22, Grinbaum)
  • “Chanel has managed succession so well… Vogue needs to try to strike a similar balance…” (43:15, Sherman)

• On Print’s Changing Value:

  • “I should at least feel like I have to read it. I don’t feel like that right now.” (45:36, Sherman)

• On Editorial Risk:

  • “If you think back to Tina Brown’s Vanity Fair… those visuals were so provocative… maybe [they should] go for broke and just try to be… incendiary and provocative.” (50:08, Grinbaum)

• On the Future:

  • “I think for all of us… scrutinizing them and, you know, cluck, clucking and all that, I think we all kind of want them to succeed, right?” (59:15, Grinbaum)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 05:44: Breakfast banter/Wellness trend (protein, water brands, segue into magazine talk)
• 12:44: The missed opportunity of SELF magazine and the state of wellness media
• 17:07: The collapse of CPG advertising and its impact
• 24:43: The transformation of Glamour, the problem with “too broad” brands
• 28:25: Are events the future of magazine brands?
• 31:06: Magazine nostalgia, emotional resonance, the “ownership” readers feel
• 42:17: Vogue under Chloe — managing democratic snobbery, events as brand
• 45:31: What is the role of print versus digital for authority and aspiration?
• 50:08: Why legacy titles need to take creative risks to survive
• 53:31: Hearst’s new strategy and opportunity for Esquire, Bazaar, and Town & Country
• 58:56: Town & Country’s resurgence and what Hearst can learn

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Tone and Language

• The conversation is lively, sharp, and layered with both affection and critical realism for the publishing industry.
• Lauren’s tone is frank, sometimes irreverent (“I didn’t like the Devil Wears Prada stuff… it kind of made me sad”), while Michael brings a historian’s perspective, with insider-y anecdotes and a hint of nostalgia.

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Final Thoughts

This episode is an essential listen (or read) for anyone interested in the crossroads of media and fashion. It’s as much about changing business models and editorial philosophies as it is about the cultural need for aspirational, if exclusive, storytelling—and the peril and promise faced by iconic brands amid disruption.

The big open question: Can the magazine industry innovate fast enough—and in a way that feels both rarefied and relevant—to retain its storied grip on culture?

Transcript

[A]

Squarespace is not only the best place to build your website, but to discover new domains too. Something like topfootballcamp.com for your top football camp, whisperingbloom.com for your silent retreat, or whisperingboom.com for your shouting retreat. Maybe velvetcords.com for your music studio, or existentialglitter.com for your artist studio. With a website from Squarespace, you can build your brand and your business [e-mail] get your domain before they're gone. With offer code, make it real for 10% off your domain or website. Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Putts, Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet. And today with me on the show is Michael Grinbaum, author of Empire of the Elite. Inside Kadidas, the media dynasty that reshaped America. We're talking about what else? Magazines. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the art world, and much more. If you're interested listeners of Fashion People, get a discount. Just go to Puck News FashionPeople to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday everyone. Hope you had a great week. I'm having a really nice time in Los Angeles. I'm gonna try to see as many people as I can, but I have to be honest, I'm feeling extremely overwhelmed. I'm a person. I am an extrovert. When I am putting it out there, when I am being called upon, I become an introvert. It hasn't happened in a really long time. But I if I don't see you on this trip, I'll see you on the next trip. Anyway, not really shopping either, so we can't go shopping. But I did pick up some Nike skims because my on my shopping freeze that I'm on with a few friends. We are allowed to shop vintage which I basically only shop vintage so it's really cheating. And workout clothes and I have bought a couple vintage things but mostly I bought some Nike skims. Gonna see how they work. I'm gonna take them to burn tomorrow, see if see if I feel better in in my Nike skims. Anyway this weekend, Line Sheet, we've got it all. Preview of Gap Beauty, which launched on Thursday. A deep dive on Regent, the company that owns Bally and Petit Bateau. Sorry guys, that one stinks. Bally's going bankrupt in Switzerland right now. And I have all these details on the guy who owns Regent, Michael Reinstein. It's very interesting story. Bally is just the beginning. He owns many companies you've heard of. Please read. It's in Thursday's issue. But yeah, there's just been a lot happening. Malik had a take on the Shein IPO in Hong Kong. That's gonna happen. I have an interview with Hallie from reformation which IPO'd on Thursday. And of course this was luxury earnings week. It was like a super week. Lucasolka, the Bernstein analyst and superstar Line Sheet and Puck and Fashion People Superstar will be on next week. Will be on Fashion People next Friday to break it all down. But I'd say like my big the lesson for me, and I think for all of us is this is the new normal. Things are getting better. Caring turnaround, LVMH turnaround in the end you could argue. But yes, this things are getting better. Whatever's happening, things are getting better. But the crazy growth is over. And honestly, I think that's for the better. I think engineering growth is bad. Just natural, organic growth of a business that is already consolidated is better anyway. Also a big announcement from me is that we are going to do the first mailbag episode of Fashion People. So I've done these in line sheet where it's like a Q and A where people write in, ask me questions, I do a little reporting or just get my opinion. Rachel's done them. Malik will be doing more of those in Line Sheet. But we do. I've never done one on Fashion People and I think mostly because I want people to pay for it. But I think it's time. And so I'm going to do one in mid August with a very special guest. Arguably the most popular Fashion People guest, a recurring guest. Not Becky Malinsky and not Marissa Meltzer. And it's a guy. But that's all I'm going to say for now. Please. I'm going to keep a surprise. You can guess who it is. Anyway, send me questions if you can and please email them to laurenuck News. That's my email address. You could DM me on Instagram. I am on Instagram a lot. It's hard to like surface things. Whereas if you send it and you say mailbag issue, I'll Put it in the folder that goes in there or mailbag episode or whatever. It will just be easier. I'm happy to chat with you on Instagram. I like engaging but I think for this, in this case, please email and until then, enjoy this conversation with Mike Michael, who is simply the best. Michael Grimbaum, welcome back to Fashion People.

[B]

Lauren Sherman, thank you for having me. I love being here.

[A]

What'd you have for breakfast this morning?

[B]

So I had a workout this morning. So I had a very workout oriented food start to my day. I had coffee and, and drank a bunch of water. And then I don't know if this is really recommended, but I like having some sugar to get some energy before my workout. So I had a few hazelnut wafers.

[A]

Hey, the nut, the hazelnut has protein. And also you're skinny, you can do whatever you want.

[B]

I just like having a little burst of calories like before I work out. I don't think it's really widely recommended, but it is what it is. And then I came home and I'm drinking a protein shake. So get your protein. So this is a new kick for me, this whole, the whole protein thing. And my colleagues on the media desk at the Times are like, so Ben Mullen, my, my other colleague, I don't think he'll mind if I say that, say this, but he's also into exercise and protein. And so the two of us will like trade thoughts about this. And we've been accused of bringing the manosphere into the office.

[A]

The two of you. Bringing the manosphere into the office is the best way for the manosphere to come into the office.

[B]

It's a New York Times approved version of the manosphere. And I do think yes, and they're getting a little sick and tired of our discussions about leg day. So that is, yes, that is my exercise world right now. But that was my breakfast this morning.

[A]

Really quickly on the protein stuff, do you feel like it's making it easier for you to build? Because my husband is also on this be. I don't want to brag, but I build muscle very easily so I do not need to take extra protein. My, my leg muscles are like, I don't need to do a leg day. But, but my husband is very into it as well and he like, really, he's like on a mission to get jacked. And do you feel like you have to actually have like, do you feel like making sure you have the protein is making it easier for you to build muscle or not?

[B]

I think it has helped me build muscle mass, but I also think it's kind of just a good and. And I'm not like hitting the numbers that everyone says I'm supposed to be hitting, but I actually think it's just a good way to kind of orient my daily eating. Like, I feel like I'm having healthier lunches and healthier dinners. Like, I just, like, eat a lot of grilled chicken. And yeah, it's very filling. I feel like I'm eating less dessert, like I'm snacking less because I feel more full. So even if it's not, you know, I can't say exactly that it's directly correlated with the muscles, but I think it's just made me like a healthier eater and I feel better.

[A]

So that's great. Yeah, that's really good.

[B]

I'm down with it.

[A]

One more food and wellness thing and then we'll get into Conde, which, you know, RIP Self magazine or whatever happened to it. But we could talk about that in a minute. I'm holding a bottle. I just came back to LA for a few weeks from Europe and we were talking about the European lifestyle versus American. Have you tried this? I'm holding up a bottle of Lunin water. Have you tried this water?

[B]

I have not tried Lunin, but I feel like it literally comes up at every single dinner and lunch that I attend.

[A]

It is so good. I am obsessed with this water.

[B]

Lauren, please enlighten me and the listeners as to what makes this water different from all other waters.

[A]

Okay. So my husband has this newsletter called the New Consumer and it's like a media. It's more of a media company. He does like a lot of speaking engagements and stuff and does surveys with this investment firm, Coefficient Capital. But anyway, he just did an interview with her and we have a lot of friends who are randomly investors in Lunan. Honestly, I don't remember read the article about. I've been thinking about this a lot. What makes water taste good. I am not. This is the same issue I have with wine. I know what I like and when I have a sip of wine, I'm like, yes, I like this. And I don't. I know what I don't like. Like there, I don't like really floral wines. I like very acidic wine that kind of tastes like grapefruit. And I. A red I like obviously like a basic girl juicy red, but also can do like something a little more sophisticated on a red. I don't know how to describe these things to people. I have tried many different ways. I write down things why this water tastes so good. I used to be a really big fan of Flo water, which is Canadian and it's a spring water from Canadian Springs or something. It's also delicious. The packaging of Flo is not ideal. It's a box and you miss some of the water and the cap gets messed up. The industrial design is not good. These lunar waters are in glass bottles and it's just so easy to drink and it is so delicious. I am just completely obsessed with it and I'm so glad it's not in Europe. And the other thing is in Europe they only drink mineral water because buying a bottle of water for the table is so cheap they think you're crazy to where like I always order tap water because I like. I like the taste of tap water. But this water is like, it's just so delicious. I've been having a bottle a day since we got here and it's. It's really expensive if you buy it at like Meadow Lane, but if you buy it at a normal like Whole Foods or whatever, it's normal price to a bottled water. But there's just something about it that quenches my thirst more than like Evian or whatever.

[B]

Have you sought out the services of a water Somalia?

[A]

No, but I would do that. Where can I find one?

[B]

I have not myself but I feel like I have read various trend stories about them and it has made me think about my own water preferences because I. And maybe this is now like a basic preference but I do love Evian across the.

[A]

I like it too. I like it too.

[B]

It's sort of like a thick taste. Does that make any sense? Yes, it tastes thicker. Like it has more like a. Almost like a umami kind of feel, mouth feel to it as the sommelier might say. And I find it very satisfying.

[A]

Yeah, it has minerals so I'm sure that's part of it. I don't know what makes My husband maybe said this water tastes round. It has. The contents are spring source water. Calcium chloride, magnesium sulfate, Celtic sea salt. Celtic sea salt. Celtic seeds on potassium carbonate.

[B]

Anyway, Lauren, why. Why in this moment of wellness obsession where this is just like everyday dinner table conversation?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Has Self magazine been demolished by Conde Nast because they had such an incredible brand that. And the history of Self magazine goes back to 1979 when people were first jogging and getting into personal fitness and personal training. And it had this pedigree to it and I feel like I don't understand and I do not actually think it was the fault of the Editors or the staff that were at Self magazine. But it feels like it missed this opportunity to really take a very forward position in that wellness media space. And unfortunately it's no longer with us.

[A]

Yeah, it's a great point. So can you. We are, we're doing a check in on Conde because your book Empire of the Elite is coming out in paperback and with an afterword kind of catching us up on the past year. So tell me exactly what Conde Nast, the legacy publisher of the New Yorker and Vogue and Vanity Fair, tell me what they decided to do with Self and then I can tell you what I think they did wrong with it for the last 10 years, because I have an opinion on that.

[B]

Well, I just to say about the book, I had such a great reaction from line sheet readers and fashion people listeners. And so I want to thank you and your audience again for being so supportive of it. Empire of the Elite is a cultural history of Conde Nast that kind of tells the story of the company going back 100 years, how all of these magazines were created and sustained and rose and in some cases fell. And I think it's also kind of a fun way to think about role of glossy magazines today and what the role of cultural gatekeepers are in our Internet age. And the book came out almost exactly a year ago. And Anna Wintour changed jobs at Vogue like two weeks before my publication date, which was fantastic publicity. Thank you, Anna. Very thoughtful of you to have done that.

[A]

Very thoughtful.

[B]

It also rendered my book instantly obsolete as to all these big changes that had happened at Conde Nast, kind of a problem that all book authors have, nonfiction book authors have to deal with. And so on the occasion of the paperback coming out, which is now available everywhere and hopefully in some airports, I feel like it's a fun beach vacation read just to get my plug in early. I was able to write a whole new chapter at the end, kind of an epilogue that catches everybody up on all these changes because we've had changes at Vogue and Vanity Fair and gq. And one thing that happened a few months ago is that Self magazine, which dated back to 1979 and had kind of a, a long history as Conde's leading wellness and health and fitness title was shut down. And the reasoning from Conde, from Roger lynch, the Conde CEO, was just that, you know, it was a title. I, I think, I mean, he didn't quite say this, but it had sort of become a minor Conde title. And I think they're trying to concentrate more on their core magazines and I think they had kind of just left let self wither a bit. I mean, I do think that fitness and wellness coverage had migrated into places like Vogue that are, you know, more health conscious and kind of writing about diet trends and fitness trends. It's something that you see say in the cut all the time. I think that more general interest style publications kind of absorbed health and fitness coverage. And I do wonder if that left Self kind of a little betwixt in between. Where were people going to kind of go to an entirely separate publication that by the way, I don't think had been published in print for several years. Yeah, it's basically a website and this was back in April and it was around the same time that Glamour, we can get to Glamour later but also got hollowed out by Conde. And it was kind of the end really of these two pretty legendary Conde Nast brands that maybe didn't have a place remaining for them in the ecosystem of magazines that we have today.

[A]

Yeah, I think a good sort of prepper is to listen to Linda Wells, the former, the founding editor and former editor of Lure magazine and her experience at Conde Nast, especially at the end. I don't know if they got into this as much. She did that print is dead. Long live Print podcast, which I love that has the idiotic name and I don't know if they're still publishing. It's such a good podcast. But she talked a lot about like the sort of ebb and flow of advertisers the way she. Because of the way she ran that magazine which was like pretty damning to the beauty industry sometimes, but also needed them to fund the magazine. So it was interesting but. And I think she gives a good because I think she left there around 2016. But to me the, the thing that with. With those titles Glamour, Self and Allure, which is still around but probably because there is more luxury beauty advertising. But basically when the bottom fell out on CPG marketing because those companies just stopped advertising as much with magazines because like they were just doing direct to consumer even more than luxury brands like luxury brands, there's a lot more just they don't need to advertise in these magazines but they do it because it doesn't cost them that much money in the grand scheme of things. And it's a relationships thing. Like I don't know if the next generation of executives running this business, luxury businesses will ever. I mean they've already pulled back tremendously. That's why these magazines are. Are in. Is failing. But if you have luxury and you can reach older people. You have, you can still have a print magazine or, or you can still have a glossy magazine that does, that does. Okay. I think that it just. The c. When CPG stopped, like I've talked about this with high level publishing executives. It was just like those kinds of brands were over. And the problem was they didn't, they also didn't understand like that the medium is, I guess the. This is the right idiom. The medium was the message. Like all that information was suddenly available on Instagram or now TikTok or whatever. Like you just get, you get your info of like how to blow out your hair on TikTok. And combined with that like the general interest, there still is a need for it from a general interest because a general interest has a real point of view. It's not just like, I am Abus magazine, I'm a fashion magazine. It's like I am New York magazine, I'm the cut. I have like a specific angle. And so I think they could. A great example is Gia Tolentino just did this piece on. It was kind of a follow up to Instagram face about like half facelifts and like what. How scary people look now and the sameness and this sort of crisis. And she had mentioned a piece that ran in New York magazine about these deep plain facelifts. And so I think by BRIDGET Reed, that's two examples of things that 20 years ago would have probably more ran in allure or self or whatever. And now the conversation is between the New Yorker and New York magazine. So I think like it's a combination of there not being space for these sort of. There, there isn't a need for something that's like so basic and then also no advertisers to back it up.

[B]

I think in also like a longer cosmic sense, it's almost a victim of its own success because when Self magazine started there really wasn't any sort of clearinghouse for this kind of health and fitness advice. And that has become so mainstream now. Totally. I feel like it's part of every conversation. I mean, you know, we could listen to how Long gone and listen to Chris, you know, talk about, you know, wellness and fitness. I mean it's kind of like just like part of our culture in such a ubiquitous way that, you know, unless you're going to have a really specific angle. Like I kind of actually love what Linda does with the air mail look newsletter because it's super high end.

[A]

So great.

[B]

You get a little bit of like that frisson of like the Luxury, you know, facelift, plastic surgery, like Fitness World. And it's kind of provocative and a little edgy and I think Self magazine, which was like a pioneer in this space, just kind of, you know, it's just available everywhere now and like, you know, you don't really need to go that as a separate destination.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Evening. Buyer's remorse. Buy a new car. I'll be moving in. Let's get started.

[A]

Sorry, I think there's been a mistake. I bought it from Carvana.

[B]

You what?

[A]

Yeah, great price. I even have seven days to love it or return it. So there's no, no, no Buyer's remorse. More like buyers rejoice.

[B]

I guess I'll let myself out. Congratulations. I mean it.

[A]

Buyers rejoice. Buy your car today on Carvana.

[B]

Limitations and exclusions may apply.

[A]

See our seven day return [e-mail] hey, it's Jen Hatmaker. Here's what I've learned in midlife. Joy isn't the reward you earn after all the work is has done. Joy is the work. That's what this new series on for the Love is all about. The sacred yes. It's choosing delight, rest and pleasure on purpose because saying yes to yourself, that's the thing that finally lets you fill your table with everybody else. Come find your sacred yes with me. Follow and listen to for the Love wherever you get your podcasts. So that was one thing that happened this year and it was also there have been for years there's been speculation that Roger was going to sell Self and Glamour. I've heard many times this year that he's tried to sell Glamour. They say that that's not true.

[B]

Whatever.

[A]

Like it's, he's someone's trying to sell something. Send me the pitch deck though people, then I can do, do more on it. But, but, and I want to shout

[B]

out to my colleague Sapna Mashwari, who did actually kind of a very sneakily incisive, it's worth looking up in the New York Times at Glamour. Skeleton crew churns out shopping links. And even though officially Conde was saying that old Glamour is still around and you know, we, this was right after Sam Barry, the editor chief got kicked out of there and Sapna kind of pointed out that it did kind of become something of a zombie website that was basically, you know, shopping affiliate links and there's basically almost no full time staff remaining. And that's pretty striking too because as you and I know, you know, Glamour magazine for years, for decades was like the, the money maker at Conde Nast. I mean, in the 80s and 90s, you know, glamour, which was pitched to a slightly more mass audience, it was hugely profitable and honestly paid for a lot of those incredible photo shoots that were in Vogue and Vanity Fair because kind of the workhorse of Glamour magazine was making a ton of advertising revenue. And it's really striking in a real statement about, you know, where the business is, that that glamorous just become kind of a shell of what it was.

[A]

Yeah. And it's a similar situation where it was just too broad. And I think when they, when Cindy left, they didn't think about, like, what, what should it be? And, and also, sometimes brands just should die, like, or, or be. Or go dormant. Vanity Fair was dormant for what, how many decades? Like, this is 60 years. Yeah. Sometimes it, it should just end. And I think, like, that's the thing that a lot of it's an issue in the fashion industry, but has been an issue in publishing where you're kind of trying to hold on to something. And they, they couldn't help. I don't know, with Glamour, like, what do you do? I don't know. You can't, you, you can't really make it like the cut. You can't really think about something like a lucky magazine. I worked there for a couple of years and it was a similar thing where I was just, I remember even, like the week I started, I was like, there's no way this can, can be a thing anymore. And that's. I wonder. Yeah, it's just interesting because they did go from Glamour. Weren't they on the top floor? I remember that too. Like, they had the best floor and that was like the signal that it was the most successful, even though it was not given as much weight. It definitely not in the fashion industry, but, but just generally in the building,

[B]

it never had the same cachet and super exclusive gloss that the other titles had. But it was also kind of a training ground, actually, for a lot of editors who kind of got their start there. I think Sign Newhouse himself was a marketing director at Glamour when he needed to learn the business when he was, you know, 25 years old. So it has a great history. But, you know, Lauren, I mean, you're right. I mean, it's not like even a great history and a great nostalgia for these titles doesn't mean that they have a right to exist forever, especially when their niche is sort of diffuse through the culture. And I think one thing we should talk about, and I mean, you know, I think there's arguments on both Sides, but. And by the way, Conde hasn't really said this to me because they're. They tend to be as, you know, a little reticent to publicly discuss their strategy. But, you know, is there wisdom to shutting down some of the. The B tier titles? And in a time where you're trying to do more, with less focus, more of your resources and your money on kind of a core portfolio of brands that are cutting through the. Still have a certain cachet, still have a real recognition in the culture. And I think there's a wistfulness that glamour, which probably meant a lot to a lot of readers for. For many years, isn't really able to sustain itself. But maybe that's to the benefit of Vogue, it's to the benefit of GQ and these other titles that, you know, want more attention paid to them.

[A]

Yeah, I think it is. It is the right strategy. I. I think the. I think the question for me right now with Conde Nast is it's the right strategy in most kind of the setup of focusing on these core titles. And we should talk quickly about Bon Appetit because I. This is one that I'm like, what are they doing? It's truly killing me. But I always thought that that was going to be of the, of the marquee. It would be because food culture is so huge. And it was that Bon App I sat with. I was at a dinner last night. I went to, like, a random dinner for. It wasn't random, but it was for the Lumens, the lighting, E Commerce, you

[B]

know, between Lumen and Lunen. I know this is.

[A]

I don't know what I'm doing. I mean, I'm just back in LA having a great time. But I sat with Andy Barragani and I was like, you know, that will go down in history as like a really important cultural thing. I loved BONAP for that decade. Like, it was so special and so important and it's lost that. But. And I don't think it's the same situation as Self. I think it could have. It could be great still. But. But the point being, like, is the strategy that they have right now, and I want to talk about events in particular, because their competitor, I guess you could say Hirsch just hired this person to run content, but also experiential and. And get way more into experiential. But is their strategy, the strategy to focus on the core brands? Yes, that makes sense to me. Are they doing enough with the core brands to keep the core brand strong? And I think that is. Do they have the right people running them, is the content around them, right? And then also the event strategy seems to be the thing that they are the best at. But we know that events are amazing. They tend to not be very profitable. You can make a lot of money on them, but to make a big profit on them is not easy. And they're definitely not scalable. So does that matter to Conde Nast? And is it just a. Is it a brand preservation thing? But, like, what is Vogue? What is gq? What is Vanity Fair like? Is it the party? Is it Vogue, Vogue World? Or is it a publication that people are like, I still need, or publications in the wrong word, like an authority figure? Is it still that? And are these events making it an authority figure? And does that really matter? I think if the new houses really want to keep conding us as they claim they do, it does matter. But, you know, anyway, so I think

[B]

those are the central questions, right? Like, what are these brands today and what do they represent and what is their future? And of course, this is always what we're. This is always the conversation around Conde Nast. Because, I mean, you and I talk about this, Lauren, but like, when you do columns on Conde, I feel like you get such a huge response from your readers. Like, there is still such a sense of ownership people have. Like, they really care about the fate of these magazines, despite the fact that, you know, print is dead and Conde is a dinosaur. I mean, the attention that this company still receives is. Is just, you know, pretty. It's pretty astounding, really.

[A]

Yep, it is wild. What a grip these brands have on my readership, which is like a mix of people who work there and fashion industry people, but also Hollywood and a little finance. And I get the Puck. People who are just love Puck mix. So like people who work in politics or whatever, I will get messages. And a lot the Conde stuff really is emotional. It's maybe not the most read, but it's often converts. Well, because people are like, yes, I would like to know. And.

[B]

And it's the most discussed, even if people aren't even reading it. I mean, how, you know, people who haven't subscribed to Vogue in years and years are still interested in the choice, you know, who's on the COVID and what's going on with the Met Gala. And like that conversation, it still feels like, you know, a lot of the sort of fashion media Internet is sort of, you know, it's. It's a. These debates spring out of the choices that are being made by Conde Nast. Even though these magazines are still read by like a smaller and smaller elite group. I want to talk about actually, I mean, I mean when I put this book out last summer, you know, it was kind of a nostalgic book. A lot of it's about kind of the Peak 90s Years of Conde Nast. And you know, I really didn't know what kind of response I would get. I figured people in their 50s and 60s would be interested. But it was amazing to me how many like 20 somethings were showing up in my readings coming out, you know, sending me messages, talking about how fascinated they were by this book. And, and part of it was just kind of a wide eyed look at the excess glamor of that era and like it was such a sexy time to be in magazines and the culture of the place was unique and hilarious and bizarre. But I also think that it reflects this kind of yearning that people still have for gatekeepers in our culture and looking for expert advice and authenticity and expertise in a moment where everyone can present themselves as kind of being knowledgeable. And I have, even in the year since the book has come out, I've been very interested in kind of this kind of young person's market for vintage magazines and for print like, you know, quarterly special one off print publications. There's a store called High Valley Books in Greenpoint, Brooklyn that is this like incredible treasure trove of vintage art, fashion, design magazines. And Addison Rae turned up on its Instagram a couple months ago. You know, she was there buying like an old Diana Vreeland book and getting some old Casa Vogue issues from the 70s. And I feel like, by the way, I think those magazines are like perfect hostess gifts, by the way. They're like the best, they're like the absolute best stocking stuffers. And there's like incredible stuff out there on ebay and used bookstores, but there is like this real fetish for it. And I guess, I mean the cliche, I guess is to compare it to vinyl records. How you know, there's a younger generation that kind of likes the tactile, collectible nature of vinyl, even though, you know you can have a billion songs on your, on your iPhone digitally, but, but something about like the magazine culture is just still very compelling. And that's why I kind of, even though Kande is such a smaller place than it used to be and you know, we can go on about all the troubles they're having and we can question some of the choices that are being made by the leadership, but I do think that The. This new generation of editors there are really trying to kind of embrace the role that Conde still plays in that kind of style media ecosystem and kind of make fun, interesting choices that adapt in different ways to our digital, substacked Patreon culture, while also, you know, keeping up a bit of the, you know, having to keep up the exclusivity that is kind of like the driving fuel behind Conde Nasten. That's a really, really hard balance to strike.

[A]

Yeah, it's really hard. It's funny. Yeah. I have. I'm. I'm sitting on. Raph Cardness sent me this old. It's an old Vanity Fair with Jessa Jessica Lang on the COVID But the supplement was a Calvin Klein Jean supplement that he worked on, so he was. He was a designer there. And it's. It's truly amazing. But I have so much of this stuff, and I feel like High Valley, like going to High Valley and getting your photo taken is the same big status thing, like ending up on their grid. And it is so much like vinyl. But I think, yeah, to me, the challenge is, I don't know enough about Adam yet to really. And I need to look through his first issue. One thing I was thinking about is when I'm in Paris, I buy all the biannuals. I buy double and all these magazines and System, and I buy them because I walk around and I go to magazine shops and bookstores constantly, and they're there and they're amazing to look through. And I get really inspired by the editorials. And I have subscriptions, personally, as a consumer to interview in W magazine because I love them. And there are some us indie magazines that I like. I really read GQ and Vanity Fair and Vogue for work, like online. I read especially Vanity Fair for Pleasure and Vogue too, and GQ sometimes. But like to buy the print version of those things. There is nothing compelling me to do that I have to remind myself for work. And the question I have is, I don't have an opinion about Adam yet. I will be forming one soon because he now basically everyone who worked there has left and he needs to. He's hiring new people. He just hired a new fashion director. He needs to hire a new visuals person. His visuals person just went to. To New York magazine, like, he's got to make a whole new team. And I believe his first issue came out and someone was saying the paper stock is like a little better or something. I know they gave him, like, a little money for nicer paper stock. I'm not convinced he's the right person for that job. To be honest, I think Mark is the right person for Vanity Fair right now. And he's trying really, really hard. And that's. Do I like everything he's doing? No. Do I think it was way better immediately? Yes. And it's impressive. And he's like taking risks and all that. And I think Chloe is also has the hardest job of any of these people. And her job can't really be totally judged until Anna is not actually there, which we need. I think you did come on after Anna did her step aside thing. But, but like in the past year, Chloe really is managing that magazine. Like, it's not like I, I think in that. But, but, but Anna is also really still around. And I think, like, is Chloe managing the Vogue brand? Well, as a brand manager, I would argue yes. Did I like the Devil Wears Prada stuff? No, I didn't like the way that that was executed. I, I didn't enjoy it as a consumer. It kind of made me sad. But do I think, like, did it make Vogue a bigger brand in the world? Yes. And so even if I didn't agree with it, I understand why they managed that stuff the way they did and why they put Anna on the COVID and all of that stuff. Like, I get, I get the value. Does it matter if nobody reads the magazine? I think is a question like, is it more important to manage the brand and make sure people are like clicking on the links of the outfits or whatever that people are wearing for street style celebrities? Or do we need people to be excited about the magazine the way they're excited about Interview.

[B]

So, a couple thoughts. So I'll say my usual disclosure is, so Chloe happens to be. She's a very close friend of mine. I knew her back when she was a New York observer journalist. So we met like 15 years ago, way before she was ever in the mix at, you know, becoming the editor of Vogue. And I even talk about this in this new chapter I wrote. So I have, I sort of think through her tenure using my kind of historical knowledge of Vogue and what the brand means. But of course, I feel I should say that, you know, she is someone I'm close with, but I was really struck by. She kind of started this Vogue book club and they do these live events. So for instance, like, Wuthering Heights was the first pick and back in February, they did a big event at the Chelsea Hotel. And it was interesting because it was a mix of kind of the Vogue hangers on. Like Derek Blasberg was there

[A]

Bet she's gonna love that. You called him that.

[B]

Sorry. Sorry about that. Derek. Derek's doing a book event with me next week. So it was Derek. That term was meant in love Derek. Don't me. It was a fun group of, like, kind of glamorous Vogue folks, but then readers there. I think there was, like, a lottery or something, and it was, like, readers could come join and, you know, go participate and be part of it. And, you know, Emerald Fennell was there for, like, a live podcast taping with Chloe. And I guess what struck me about it was, listen, you can, like, debate the merits of this sort of thing, but what Vogue is trying to do, I think what Chloe is trying to do is balance. We live in a culture where people want to feel like they can participate in something. And so the kind of, you can't sit with us. Cool table at the cafeteria, which was kind of Vogue's appeal for many, many years, like, doesn't really quite work anymore in our Internet age. And at the same time, you can't just turn Vogue into this egalitarian thing, because the whole idea of it is it's supposed to be elite. And there still is, like, a real appeal that this is, you know, supposedly, like, you know, elite tastemakers who have access. Have unusual access and can kind of, you know, lay down these trends. And of course, that's much less true than it was, you know, even 10 or 15 years. But the whole idea of the book club, I like the way it was executed because it was kind of. It was a starry, glamorous, like, Manhattan event, but it was also kind of accessible to some of the lay readers who could come be there. And it reminded me there's a. Funny. There's a Mary McCarthy quote from the 1950s. She was like, a junior editor at Vogue, and she wrote this essay about it and said that Vogue had a democratic snobbery, a snobbery for everyone. And that line has always kind of stuck with me as a very interesting way of thinking about Vogue magazine. And so I think Chloe has been experimenting, and I think experimenting is very hard, and you make yourself vulnerable in a very public position with a lot of scrutiny. She certainly, structurally, is in a tough spot because, you know, Anna Wintour is down the hall. I mean, she's still there kind of overseeing these choices. You know, Mark Guiducci, who, I agree, I think is also doing a great job at vf, is the right pick for it. You know, he kind of has more of a carte blanche, right? He doesn't have Kind of, you know, anyone above him. So I thought that that book club was like a smart, you know, step in the right direction. And I think it's just a really, really tough remit. And, you know, I'm kind of excited to see, you know, they're still doing Vogue World. They've got the Milan one coming up in the fall.

[A]

And then San Francisco.

[B]

Yes, I've heard.

[A]

Someone sent me a photo of Anna with Zac Posen in the Gap offices.

[B]

How are you feeling about that?

[A]

I don't care. I mean, I do. I think Vogue World's awesome. Like, I think it's great. It's really fun to be there. I think when you watch it online, I don't understand why someone want to do that. Because I've been to some of them, I have not been to other ones. And I think it's gonna be amazing in Milan. And when Lisa Love is involved, I think it's better. Cause she's really good at producing those things. And I'm sure she'll do it in San Francisco because it's West Coast. It's gonna be interesting. Cause Mark was very involved in that. And I assume he won't be anymore. So it'll be interesting how Chloe is involved with that. But, yeah, I mean, this is my question. I think I thought that book club thing, I remember when she did it and thought, oh, this is really smart and really fun and like the right mix of what you're saying, this democratic snobbery that is, like, that should be her focus. And I think she's managing the brand well. Like, the thing is, the brand needs to get bigger because they need to make way more money on it. Because, like, the new houses seem to actually care that these businesses make money now, whether or not they do totally. Or what they're actually, you know, we only know a little bit. But they seem to the board of advance or whatever seems to care about what the financials of these businesses are. I think the question for me is, like, long term, what does it become? Like, can they. I always equate Vogue and Chanel. To me, those are the brands that are, like, connected in the fashion world. The two biggest fashion brands. And the way that Chanel has managed this succession with Matt Tublasi is so amazing. Like, it feels so fresh and modern and it feels completely cool enough for inside fashion people and completely basic enough for the most basic Chanel lipstick buyer. And I think Vogue needs to try to strike a similar balance with having a much smaller business. And I think it's Just really challenging. Like, I don't know the answer of whether or not it matters that I don't want to read the magazine. Like, I think, should I also want to read the magazine? Is a question like, should I want to read? I think maybe the answer is yes. I should at least feel like I have to read it. And I don't feel like that right now.

[B]

Do you mean that? Are you talking specifically the print product?

[A]

Print, yes.

[B]

Yeah. So, yeah, it's interesting. And I mean, look, these are different situations, but the New York Times, you know, I've worked there for 16 years now. And that transition, like, from print to digital, where obviously we still have a print product that, you know, you can buy if you can find a newsstand in Manhattan, which, you know, most people can't. But I remember a point where there was kind of a message set internally where it was like, where your story appears in print just doesn't matter anymore. And to, like, really actually emphasize that they. All the decisions about print placement got shifted over to this discrete, separate desk, which means, like, your own editor had no say in it.

[A]

And.

[B]

And we were all taught to care so much about something being on the front page. And of course, that's still like, a nice feather in one's cap. But, you know, I. My story publishes when it's ready. It doesn't matter what the print deadlines are. I mean, and stores show up in print four days after they show up online. So, you know, there. There does have to be this kind of like. Like, the culture of a publication has to sort of shift with that. And, like.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I get. I agree. It's complicated. We're, like, working it out. I'm working it out in my head of what should be the strategy to preserve the brand, to make the brand bigger, and then also to give it cachet and give it, like, a weight, because that does matter. And that's what I think is challenging. When the thing that. The stuff that I read on Vogue that gets passed around is often not print stuff. It's like the smaller. The smaller pieces or, like I said, like, a lot of. A lot of the celebrity, like, street style stuff I read or. Or Vogue Runway, obviously, like, I still go on Vogue Runway to read Nicole Phelps's reviews and things like that. But, like, that's a really small group of people. I know that from, like, working at many different publications and knowing that, sorry, everyone, no one reads the Runway reviews. Like, it's a very small group of people that read them. And it's important to do them because it's like a dialogue with the brand. And then you find your editing. You've got a big day. So you use unstoppable scent boosters to give your laundry non stop freshness. So no matter how long the day goes, you can't stop this power, this walk, this pose, this strut, this look, this talk. Your clothes will be so fresh you can confidently strut into that end of the day meeting like a boss. Boss, boss, boss, boss, boss, bosses. Let's talk business in my office. Add new unstoppable unstoppables beads to your wash for 24 hour non stop freshness so you can smell unstoppable. This is a question for Hearst too. Like, Michael Sebastian's getting Pulitzers. Like, why isn't anyone talking about Esquire? Like, this is a question of. The thing that Conde has done very well is people are still talking about all these brands and especially Vogue. And that is, I think, a lot of credit to Chloe in the last year of how she's managed all the Devil Wears Prada stuff. She's managed, like, the scrutiny she's gotten herself. And also. Which is insane. And then also, like all these different initiatives she's done with different events and brand partnerships and things. But like, how do you make it feel special still and broad and special at the same time? And that is. I feel like the specialness needs to come from maybe not the actual physical magazine, but at least people passing around the editorial. Like, I think about like a W. The Giselle cover of W magazine. It just is. It was amazing. Like, Sarah has Brian Malloy style Giselle in all the cool fashion. It's a great issue. I wanted to regram it all day. Like, these are the moments. Or Mel having Madonna on the COVID Or like, there was a great gentlewoman. Had an amazing shoot recently that I just. Or M. Le Mond or whatever. Dude, LeMond. They had a shoot in their last issue that I just bought it. Cause I want to like, like pull out and put the images up on my wall. Does Vogue need to do that anymore? I think that maybe it does to keep the interest. Because right now the interest is there. But if you become, I don't know, I mean, like what I'm saying.

[B]

Yeah, no, totally. Because it also makes me think, listen, like, Conde Nast was never visionaire and it was never like the edgiest, you know, like the absolute cutting edge of, you know, fashion photography. But if you actually think back, if you think back to Tina Brown's Vanity fair in the 80s. Like, those visuals were so provocative for what they were and, like, so striking. Like those like Whoopi Goldberg and the Bathtub of Milk. Like, I mean, those are like, images you will never forget. And if you do think about the history of Vogue, I mean, like Steven Meisel shooting for Italian, I mean, you know, like, they all were like, kind of pioneers and trailblazers in their own way of, like, the visual language of fashion. And I think that as the company got bigger and bigger and more and more global, you know, there's sort of a more conservative instinct that kicks in, right, to be sort of a little bit safer. And, you know, they still have beautiful photography, beautiful visuals, but it kind of all becomes. You want to keep it in kind of these mainstream guardrails. And I think, like, maybe we're at a moment where they kind of should go for broke, right? Like, and just try to be like. And. And this is true of. Of GQ and of Vanity Fair. And listen, I all think, like, I think they've got great talent working for them, but I think they could also kind of go a little wild and. And see what the reaction is and be incendiary and provocative in that sense.

[A]

I agree. I think that Mass only works if it feels niche these days. Like, it has to also. Even if it is mass, it needs to feel niche. And so that's what they have to figure out. Like, how do I. How do I do that? And. Okay, so the last question I have for you is Hurst, because we've never really talked. I mean, I'm sure we have a bit. We haven't really talked about it. And the thing about the Hearst brands, which Town and Country, Esquire, Harper's Bazaar, they're really, like, still really, really good brands. And shout out to Stelline in particular, but, I mean, the people managing these brands are doing a pretty good job too. But I think it's interesting they hired this guy from. Is it from NBC Universal? Dylan really took. I was on vacation. But also this is. Yeah, it was his guy. So he did a piece on it that everyone should check out on in the room. But the interesting thing to me was, like, it's really experiential. And the only thing I can ever think about with Hearst with experiential is they go to Cannes Lions and they really do it up there. Like, they have tons of panels and they're, like, really involved in Cannes lions. And, you know, I feel like Puck and Cannes Lions. It's like oil and vinegar. But it's interesting because they clearly see what Conde's doing. The success they've had with Vogue World and Roger, every time they do an event, they're like. And we know all the success that GQ had with its many events and what Will did with the super bowl thing and all of that, and obviously the Vanity Fair party and lighting aside, I think was way more successful. Mark's first go around. And really smart to have it at LACMA and all that stuff. Stuff. But what do you think about those brands? Because to me, there's so much opportunity at Bizaar and, and Esquire in particular. And do you think that they, like, what do you think Hurst should do?

[B]

Yeah, I know. I totally agree now. And I think it's worth remembering that Hurst is actually also a big TV company. Like, they own stations around the country. Like, they provide television programming. I think it's really smart for them to bring in someone from NBC, like has that TV background and can apply it to some of these brands. Because it's true. I mean, Harper's Bazaar is older than Vogue. I mean, I mean, it's. It. It really still has, like a real brand recognition to it. And I think that, you know, there's a real opportunity for those titles. We, you know, Hurst has always been sort of the less sexy cousin to Conde, maybe just because the Conde budgets used to be so much bigger. And like, the personality, you know, they kind of were more indulgent, I think, at Conde Nast of these kind of wild, egotistical personalities who were editing these magazines. But, you know, in today's world, like, you know, I mean, there's kind of less of a difference there. I think Conde now, the. The uber policies, you have to specify your arrival and destination locations, which I'm assuming Hearst probably had in place for, you know, the last 20 years. So, I mean, I. I think that. I think going with experiential is right. I mean, that's obviously becoming a more and more crowded market. But Esquire especially, I'm interested in keeping an eye on, because I think GQ is in a very uncertain moment of transition. I'm really waiting to see what Adam does with his debut issue. They've lost so much talent out of there, which always, you know, typically happens with a leadership turnover. But, you know, Sam Hein going to New York magazine, he's going to be doing a men's fashion issue coming out this fall. I think there's a lot of interest in that. That's something that, you know, GQ is not going to have. And they're going to have to compete against. I think it was their design director just left to go. Go to New York Magazine as well, to replace Jody Kwan, who's going. We didn't even talk about tea, by the way.

[A]

I know. I didn't want you. I don't. I mean, I guess you. I'm a little media, I'm a little

[B]

constrained, but I was very interested in, like, all the attention given to it. Like, there was another example.

[A]

Yes. So these are the stories that I'm like, I'm the only person that's going to write about this stuff and who cares about, like, every angle of it. I'm going deep. And, you know, people love that shit.

[B]

Totally, totally.

[A]

And I love it. I love it. I can't wait. I've never met Jody in person. I can't wait to meet her. I can't wait. I'm so excited. It was like the best choice and it was so fun to cover it because literally no one else. I was like, the only person that could maybe scoop me on this. Does not know any of these people. It's going to be easier for. It was a really fun, fun thing. Anyone wants to send me more Jody Kwan stuff, I'm available.

[B]

So, like, I think, you know, I mean, Esquire, I think there is, like, a huge opportunity for them. I think there's so. I mean, look at the way, like, men's interest has, like, exploded online. Like, that's also an obvious category that, you know, I think, you know, a kind of a visual, like, fun, a bit provocative magazine has. Has a chance to jump into. So, you know, I'm hoping that they're going to put more resources because Esquire is an amazing history, amazing writers, great editors. I'd love to see them kind of roar back.

[A]

Yeah. And I'm a huge fan of Michaels. I think he's awesome. He knows what he's good at, he knows what he isn't good at. And I think on the bizarre beat, I am a little constrained there because my very good friend of many years is Leia Chernikov, who's the executive editor there. And I write about it and I'm not afraid to write about it. But I do think, like, I don't write about it as much as I would if Leia did not work there, because she's like family level friendship and has been on this podcast many times. But I think they hired Melina Gilchrist to be the new kind of style director. Melina has replaced Carlos, who went back to Vogue to Work with Chloe on imagery. I'm a huge fan of Melina's, and I think it could be interesting to see. I think one of the issues with Bizarre, for me, I think the inside is really interesting. I think the covers, they have this amazing history. The covers need to be more striking. It's the same thing. I mean, Bogue has this issue too. Like, the covers need to be striking, so they get passed around a lot. But I think Leah and Lynette do a podcast there that's been really successful about shopping and kind of leaning on the Glenda Bailey of Harper's Bazaar, which was really about buying stuff, which was super fun in its time. That I think is good. And I think there's just a huge opportunity there to be, like, really? I always thought Bizarre should kind of go the route that Will did with GQ and make it really enthusiast. And I hope that they go deeper in that way. Cause Melina is like a real fashion insider, stylist, and I think her sensibility with Samira makes sense. So I'm excited to see that too. But I think, like, look, Hirsch just doesn't seem to care as much about these magazines as Conde cares about theirs, because it's not a big part of the business. And they. It's just much more. They've been focused on the bottom line more. But I. I think there's a big opportunity there. I think what Stelene has done with Town and Country, giving it a relevance and obviously with a really small budget compared to. I don't. Vanity Fair is amazing. Like, how do you do that? Like, she should be teaching classes, so she should get a job that's, like, running more of Hearst.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I would promote her. Maybe she doesn't want to do that. But, like, she's the one. If I worked there, if I was Samir, I'd be like, stelene, how should I. How should I manage this stuff? Because I'm never gonna get what I would get if I worked at Vogue, if I was the editor of Vogue. So, like, you know, it's an. It's interesting that.

[B]

Yeah. And I think until Mark came along, I mean, she was absolutely beating Vanity Fair at its own game. I mean, rich people behaving badly and just like, all that kind of, like upper class porn, you know? I mean, it was just delightful. And it had this cheekiness to it. It reminded me of, like, Tatler under Kate Reardon, which was, like, such a delightful. Like, you know, like, just has this hilarious magazine to read about, you know, all these ridiculous upper Class characters, and Stelline just absolutely knocked it out of the park. I think Vanity Fair under Mark is now bringing back some of that sensibility. And I think Mark has had a really strong story since. I'm very excited to see what he does with their September issue, actually. But, yeah, I mean, what Stelline did at tnc, like, bringing that brand back after really years of being out in the wilderness, and there's so much. There's so much potential there. I mean, like, there's a way of looking at the magazine world right now that's a little more rosy eyed. That's just. There's. You know, these brands still have a lot of recognition. They still have budgets. Not as much as they used to, but there's an infrastructure there. And I think they just need to find a way to, like, learn to live in this substack world and, like, live alongside of it instead of, like, holding it at arm's length. And, I mean, listen, that's easier said than done. And if I had the solutions, I'd be getting paid more than I was. But. But I think, like, for all of us who are kind of, you know, scrutinizing them and, you know, cluck, clucking and all that, I think we all kind of want them to succeed, right? Like. Like, we're all kind of rooting for that.

[A]

It's been such a relief that Vanity Fair got better. It's a relief. Like, it's also. It's more competitive with everybody. Like, it's more competitive with New York. I'm sure that. I am sure David Haskell is thrilled in some ways because at least he has a competitor now.

[B]

That's the we all want competition. It forces all of us to do better and to be on our toes. And, like, that's super important. And it's good for the style section. It's good for New York magazine. It's not great to only have one game in town. Rising Tide.

[A]

Yes. Michael, this was so fun. We should just do a check in every six months.

[B]

Our biannual Conde report. Well, thank you so much for having me. This is super fun. I mean, I could talk about this all day long. So thanks for letting me vent for. For an hour.

[A]

Congrats on the. On the paperback. And everybody go out and buy it and read the afterword. It's important and good and I appreciate you and I can't wait to see you in September in New York.

[B]

Yes. Looking forward to it. All right, thanks so much, Lauren.

[A]

Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. The show is produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, producer Maya Tribbett and director of editorial operations Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, Kelly Turner and Bob Tabador.

[B]

La Playa can sound like for others,

[A]

it's

[B]

but this is our Playa. Corona La Playa awaits. Relax responsibly. Corona Extra Beer imported by Crown Import, Chicago, Illinois.