Are the Men Okay?

Summary

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Fashion People — “Are the Men Okay?”

Podcast: Fashion People
Host: Lauren Sherman (A)
Guest: Marc Beaugé, Editor in Chief of L’Étiquette (B)
Date: June 30, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Lauren Sherman welcomes Marc Beaugé to unpack the mood and shifts of Paris Men’s Fashion Week 2026, delve into what’s driving menswear and its industry, discuss the vibe in Paris during an unprecedented heatwave, and give an insider’s perspective on running (and reading) the influential magazine L’Étiquette. The episode explores themes like the social dynamics of men’s versus women’s fashion, the evolving function of runway shows, styling in modern collections, and the increasing casualization of dress, in addition to examining the current identity and business of prominent brands.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The Paris Heatwave and Dressing Dilemmas (03:38–11:22)

• Record Heat: Both discuss struggling to dress stylishly in record high Parisian temperatures, raising the perennial shorts debate for men.
  • “Shorts can be nice and elegant. They need to be quite short. I prefer shorts with long sleeve tops… The difficult thing with shorts is when you sit down.” — Marc (04:30)
• Lack of Air Conditioning in France: Explored as a cultural and even political issue, with most Paris buildings lacking AC, leading to debates around class and climate change.
  • “It has gone to the point where the air conditioning thing has become almost a political debate… The left wing said, ‘We can have it maybe in the hospitals, the schools, but if we have it in individual buildings, people will forget the situation we are in.’” — Marc (06:33)
• Personal Anecdotes: Lauren recounts escaping to a hotel room with her husband and child at night for air-con. Both note how dressing and living through such heat is shifting attitudes in Paris.

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2. Men’s Fashion Week: Mood & Industry Shifts (12:00–22:07)

• Is the Men’s Scene “Over”?: There’s a sense of malaise at the men’s shows—less excitement, more socializing, possibly linked to heat and also deeper industry changes.
  • “He said, ‘Do you think this scene is sort of over?’ … it felt to me it was much more about the social element and less about the shows themselves.” — Lauren (13:47)
• Milan vs Paris: Milan notably subdued, with few standout shows aside from Prada. Both question what runway shows are really for now, especially as wholesaling declines globally.
  • “Milan was very quiet … nothing that makes you wonder what fashion is about or what time do we live in.” — Marc (14:19)
• Runway vs. Showroom & The Value of “Re-Sees”: Marc prefers “re-see” appointments, where you can experience and discuss the clothes and connect with designers.
  • “You don’t properly see clothes [at runway shows]… Presentations or showrooms or smaller brands will be places where we can talk, not just sit and take a few pictures.” — Marc (15:40)

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3. Social Dynamics: Men’s vs. Women’s Shows (17:50–21:03)

• Camaraderie and Cliques: Men’s shows are friendlier and less tense; there’s physical camaraderie and “cliques of guys” always hugging, which is absent at the women’s shows.
  • “We do, we give each other hugs. It’s true… It’s almost like a team in a way.” — Marc (20:41)
  • “There’s definitely a lot more camaraderie and a lot more, like, ‘Oh my God, let’s have fun together.’” — Lauren (20:28)

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4. Milan Highlights, Styling, and the Role of the Creative Director (22:07–34:38)

• Best of Milan: Prada praised for radical simplicity and relatable ideas (“real life” dressing), even as others were accused of “overstyling.”
  • “I liked [Prada] because it was radical in a way. The biggest thing to me wasn’t the skinny jeans… but something radical in its simplicity.” — Marc (23:22)
• Styling vs. Design: Brands rely more on stylists to create ‘shock’ for shows while keeping collections safer for sales, sometimes leading to a disconnect.
  • “Maybe we are going in a season where the stylist at the brand are as important as the designers.” — Marc (27:11)
  • “The only thing the stylist does is help and bring more tension. And I think what Charlotte [Collet] did… was to make it more simple.” — Lauren (29:23)
• Generation of Creative Leaders: Debate about whether Creative or Marketing Directors now have the real power—do “creative rebels” still drive the business?
  • “Sometimes I wonder how important in the industry are those guys? … Is Jonathan Anderson more important than the marketing director at Dior?” — Marc (34:38)

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5. The Business of Fashion: Creatives, Crisis, and Commercial Realities (38:12–54:06)

• The Tension Between Creativity and Commerce:
  • Luca de Meo (Kering CEO) reportedly wants collections to be less “artistic” and more “sellable”—sparking debate on long-term brand value.
  • “Letting people loose is what makes you a bunch of money in some ways… But if Luca proves that fashion is just CPG now… the creative people are going to lose out.” — Lauren (41:52)
• Hermès, Chanel, Prada: Benchmarks for balancing creativity, heritage, and product quality.
• Celine & Michael Rider: Touted as a model example—Rider is the “ultimate modern creative director,” blending wearability, style, and brand coherence without ego.
  • “Michael is sort of the creative director for our time, like, of this tricky time in the world … where everything’s uncertain and the industry’s consolidated.” — Lauren (55:08)
  • “You want to wear his clothes because you feel he designs for you and you want to have dinner with him.” — Marc (53:32)
• The Modern Genius: Questioning if the era of the “mad genius” creative director is gone—today’s leaders need to balance commerce, restraint, and collaboration.

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6. Brands to Watch & Showroom Standouts (58:10–64:05)

• Dries Van Noten and Our Legacy: Both praised for managing transitions or growing thoughtfully. Our Legacy called “balanced” and community-driven, digesting subcultures for broad appeal.
  • “I think our legacy is doing a good job… It’s not nothing. There is an identity… They digest it in a proper way.” — Marc (58:56)
• Acne Falters: Both agree Acne Studios lost direction trying to be “too fashion” and aspirational (aiming for “the Swedish Prada”), unlike more grounded brands like Ami and Our Legacy.

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7. L’Étiquette: Concept, Growth, and Philosophy (64:09–73:16)

• Marc’s Career Path: From sports journalism and subculture writing to launching L’Étiquette—a magazine focused on style as culture, not shopping.
  • “To me, what you wear is as relevant as what you read, what you watch, what you listen to…” — Marc (66:22)
• Editorial Approach: Less about trends, more about real outfits, diverse price points, and approachable “friend” advice.
  • “We are the stylish friend of your group… [who says] why don’t you try this?” — Marc (73:16)
  • “It’s friendly, but it’s not stupid. And it has high standards… It feels open, but it also is like… it has taste.” — Lauren (74:39)
• Potential Expansion: Lauren urges for a U.S. edition (tongue-in-cheek), noting American editors’ love for the mag.

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8. The Rise of Athleisure and ‘Casualization’ (77:00–84:51)

• Leggings in Paris vs. NYC: Lauren asks if the American “leggings everywhere” phenomenon will take root in France. Marc sees the trend but notes French style still starts at a higher standard.
  • “A couple days ago, a friend … sent me a picture [in Paris] of a girl wearing Aloe… She told me it’s crazy.… we cannot do that.” — Marc (79:08)
  • “Even in Paris… we dress a bit better than you do. But we are always a bit late on the trends. I think we’ll reach the point where we dress the way you do.” — Marc (81:49)
• Philosophy of Dressing: Marc underscores his view that how you dress in Europe is a cultural expression, not just status or comfort.
  • “To me, not dressing, I mean, dressing in purely comfort clothes… is having no culture. It’s like… you don’t express anything through your clothes. And I think clothes are made to express something.” — Marc (83:57)

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Notable Quotes

• “Looking miserable is part of the charm of working in fashion. You cannot show that you enjoy it, truly, otherwise you are not cool enough.” — Marc (14:19)
• “What I like is the idea that we are the stylish friend of your band, of your group of friends.” — Marc (73:16)
• “Fashion cannot be challenging in a time of crisis.” — Marc (51:34)
• “Phoebe [Philo] is the Coco Chanel of our generation.” — Lauren (49:13)
• “Michael [Rider] is sort of the creative director for our time… where everything’s uncertain and the industry’s consolidated.” — Lauren (55:08)

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Segment Timestamps

• 00:00–03:33 – Ads and intro
• 03:33–11:22 – Paris during the heatwave, shorts debate, and cultural context for AC
• 11:22–22:07 – Men’s Fashion Week mood, is the scene over, Milan comparison
• 22:07–34:38 – Standout Milan shows, styling, role of creative directors and influence on collections
• 34:38–47:29 – The balance of art vs commerce, Kering/Luca di Meo, Chanel/Prada vs. others
• 47:29–54:06 – Celine and Michael Rider, “genius” creative directors, and brands as worlds
• 54:06–64:05 – Brand spotlights: Loewe, Dries, Our Legacy, Acne, MF Pen
• 64:09–73:16 – L’Étiquette magazine: origins, philosophy, and reception
• 73:16–84:51 – Open, intelligent approach to style; the tension over athleisure’s rise in Paris
• 84:55–end – Outro and credits

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Memorable Moments

• Surviving the Paris heatwave: Swapping hotel stays for AC in what Lauren calls the “most political Fashion People will ever get.” (09:50)
• On camaraderie in men’s shows: “We do have this. A lot of hugs—that does not happen [at women’s fashion week].” (20:41)
• The ‘leggings in Paris’ debate: Would Marc write about “American” athleisure invading Paris—and can a Frenchman tell women what to wear? (79:08–80:05)
• On L’Étiquette’s success: American editors are “obsessed,” and Lauren dreams of a US edition (76:33–76:49).

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Summary prepared for listeners who want the heart of the conversation without missing any key insights or flavor from the hosts.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Thank you, Lorraine.

[A]

I'm happy to see you.

[B]

Yeah, same. Thanks a lot for having me on board.

[A]

It's going to be fun. How was your week last week?

[B]

It was buzzy, as you know. It was obviously Fashion Week. So it was busy, it was intense, it was hot. More importantly, very hot. I don't think we have ever experienced these temperatures in France, so it was sweaty. Difficult to dress in that weather. You don't really know how to do. Can I wear shorts to get to shows? That kind of important questions. It was difficult. It was difficult.

[A]

The shorts thing did come up several times during the week, which it would not have been as much of an issue at the women's shows because women can just wear dresses or I guess men can too, but it doesn't happen as much. What did you decide? Were you pro short for the shows? Did you wear shorts at night? How did you manage it?

[B]

Yeah, I'm usually more dressed in a classic way, in a classic and elegant, I hope, way. But those temperatures were so hard that I opted for wearing shorts a few times in the week. Shorts can be nice and elegant. They need to be quite short. I prefer shorts with long sleeve tops, so shirts or long T shirts rather than shorts and short sleeves. The thing that I find difficult is when you're standing. Shorts are great. I mean, it's good looking. It's nice. The difficult thing with shorts is when you sit down so the leg takes more place, the tie gets bigger on the seat and maybe you get some marks on the behalf of the leg when you stand up. So it's tricky to do shorts well. But I tried it and I saw a few people doing it very well. But yeah, shorts were tolerated last week in Paris, for sure.

[A]

I don't think anyone had a choice. I mean, one thing, a friend of mine from New York, who definitely wears a lot of shorts, messaged me and said, I don't understand. How can it be worse than it is when it. When it's hot here? Because New York is extremely humid.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So if when it is hot like it was last week in Paris, it's also humid and it is a different sort of hell. Like I would say being outside in Paris last week and I had to leave early. I did come to New York for something. So I was only there until Thursday. But being there at the peak heat, being outside is more comfortable than New York. But the difference, and I explained to him, is that very few places have air conditioning. And the places that do do not have real air conditioning in the American sense.

[B]

It doesn't work.

[A]

Can you briefly explain why there is not a lot of air conditioning in France other than the fact that it used to not get this hot?

[B]

Yeah. I think we have in Europe less air conditioning than any country while we're supposed to be one of the leading countries in terms of economic development, et cetera. So I think there are structural explanations to it. Most of the buildings in the big cities are very old. Were not equipped right away, obviously with air conditioning. It takes money. It takes people to agree all together in the building to have it made. So I think about 15% only of the apartments in Paris have got air conditioning. So that's the historical cultural explanation. But it has gone to the point where the air conditioning thing has become almost of a political debate on the left wing. You have got people saying that air conditioning is the right wing. Think if something for rich people. Because technically when you get air conditioning in one apartment, in a whole building, the guy pays for it and he's the only one in the apartment, in the building to have it. Then it creates more warmth for the rest of the building. You see people around him that don't have air conditioning are in a worse condition than before the guy had it. So it has become a debate subject. It's something the right wing said, we should have it everywhere. The left wing said it doesn't solve the problems. We can have it maybe in the hospitals, the schools, et cetera, but if we have it in individual buildings, people will forget the situation we are in at the world means we are in a bad situation. We need to change the way we live. So it's a very difficult topic. I myself bought fans. It doesn't work. It doesn't work. Don't buy fans it just mixes hot air into hot air. So it doesn't work. Yeah. So it's supposed to get even worse in a week in Paris, like from the week starting of the 6th of July. I don't know if you're coming back, Lorraine. It will last longer and it's supposed to be worse. They are talking about 45 degrees.

[A]

What?

[B]

Yeah, 45.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Then we will go from wearing shorts to wearing knickers in public. Maybe at that point.

[A]

I'm getting an air conditioner.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We resisted and we rented a hotel room for three nights at a very bad hotel that smelled bad but was fresh. And we actually switched off. My husband and I, like, one night I stayed there one night he and my kids stayed there because we were like, it's going to be too hot in this room for three people. But like, it's just the moment another person is in the room, it gets way worse. But I cannot do it again. What I. This is the thing I will say this is the most. First of all, this is the most political that fashion people ever will get.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly.

[A]

And then also I had a funny experience that was a sort of precursor to this. We got there in March where we stayed in a temporary place March through July. And in April it was quite cold still at night. And my son, we were making him like makeshift heating hot water bottles for his bed because the heater wasn't on. And my husband texted the landlord and said, hey, is it possible to turn the heater back on? We don't know how. And the radiators and it's really cold at night. You know, we're coming from California where it's very temperate. And she said, oh, no, the building voted to shut the heat off for the year.

[B]

Welcome to France, Lauren. That kind of things get decided by everyone. So.

[A]

Yeah, thank you for the preview. I am supposed to be there for Couture. That's supposed to be our last week there before we go away for the summer. So I think we will buy an air conditioner or two and keep them in our. In our storage unit for. For. But, you know, it's. It's interesting. I lived in the UK 20 years ago and now going there, you pretty much in. In people's houses, they still don't always have them, but like schools and things. And the only. The metro still is the metro in Paris. Some of them are air conditioned.

[B]

Not in 25 peasants of the metro line of it.

[A]

The night. The nine. I think sometimes nine do have it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. But it was Just a strange situation where I said to my husband, I was like, why didn't we just buy them? Like why didn't we do it? And he's like, I don't know. I thought it wasn't going to be that bad. And I think that happens to a lot of people that you just don't you think it's going to be okay with shutting? Because there's these metal shutters on the, the windows. So it's if you keep them down all day and then you have a fan and you open the window for a couple hours at night, it's okay. And with one in the room it's okay. But then once you have like two people in a room, it's just anyway, we could talk about this forever. A friend of mine said, and I want to talk about let take a bit and, and how you got there because we talk about it quite a bit in Line sheet and also on the podcast. So would love to hear more about that. But really quickly on the men's shows last from maybe we'll do the men's shows and then we can talk more about let's get. And how you got to to be there. Because it's. But I had dinner with a friend on Thursday night who's like very in the menswear world, but he lives in a different place and he, he sees all his menswear friends at the fashion shows in Paris in particular. And he said, you know, everybody was kind of miserable and stressed and seemed, he said, do you think this scene is sort of over? And I said, well, I think a lot of it is the heat and that was part of it. But I'm curious. I haven't cover, I don't cover menswear super, super closely, but I've dipped in and out of the menswear shows over the years and I've always enjoyed them because it does feel like everybody's friends and part of it is very social, whereas women's is people are friends, but it's not like no one's going there for fun. Whereas there are a lot of people who I think come in for the men's shows in Paris in particular to hang out and people and do meetings. But it's like a fun, a fun time. But I think that going to Milan and Paris this season, the sort of fallout of wholesale globally and the fact that there just aren't as many stores for people to sell to, I feel like that's really starting to affect the menswear market. And there are, there are Still a lot of brands, but there are maybe fewer, and how they sell is more narrow. And it did feel like a. A bit of a change to me in terms of, like, what are these shows for? And it felt to me it was much more about the social element and less about about the shows themselves. There are a couple exceptions, but I'm curious what you think.

[B]

I thought Milan, to start with. It started in Milan was. Was very quiet, so very few shows. You will have two to three days max. And Prada was impressive and we'll probably talk about it, but apart from that, nothing striking, nothing able to open a conversation. I mean, it's nice. It's not nice. You like it or you don't like it, but nothing that makes you wonder what fashion is about or what time do we live in, or nothing that tells you something about the world. I think obviously it played a huge part in the way people interact and people talk. People look miserable or not, but I mean, looking miserable is part of the charm of working in fashion. You cannot show that you enjoy it, truly, otherwise you are not cool enough. But I mean, it has been like that for forever, basically. But yeah, I felt it a bit this season and going on to Paris. I mean, from a personal point of view, I don't do every one of them, so I do the big ones. I think maybe strangely, I mean, the shows can be good or bad, but I get frustrated by it as you don't properly see clothes, you don't properly see the fabric. I mean, I love Reese's. I think Reese's can be much more interesting in a way that shows or at least complementary. I mean, you need to see both of them to understand the collection. That's what I thought when I saw Prada. Gior also, you need to get to touch the clothes to get a proper idea of what is going on. I love the Reese's. And I also find that presentations or showrooms or smaller brands will be places where we can talk, where we can not just sit and take a few pictures on our phone, but close talk to the designers. Much more fulfilling and pleasing than the big ones, where everyone is in a hurry. You get to sit down, you don't talk much, and you rush out of it. I mean, it probably has been going out like that forever, but it's a big circus. The car is waiting for you. You have got to write something. Maybe everyone does that one thing where you text, you take one picture and then you put it in a story with the name of the brand. Don't Know what's its. Why? Is it to show that you were there? Is it a sign on to your editor in chief or to the other journalist? I don't know, but everybody does that kind of thing where it just. You are there because you have to be there, but you don't really say anything about the shows. So. Yeah, I do enjoy it, but I do enjoy sometimes skipping shows. I mean, I was supposed to go to Sakai, but after Celine I just went home. Sometimes it's good to just not go. And you can watch it obviously on the social and look at the images. But yeah, Shota are not the most friendly of places.

[A]

Of course it's funny because to me the men's are so relaxed and friendly.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Because it's so different from women. Because women's is like really tight and really like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. Oh yeah. I mean, I think my week was cut short because I had to do this trip to New York and so. And I didn't on Thursday. I was in dealing with shit all day. So I missed. Basically the last show I went to was Dior. I think I went to Dior and then I went to Merrell Rouge and then was there anything on Wednesday afternoon that. Because I. I wasn't going to go to that many anyway, but. But I missed like Rick. I was going to go to Rick and Dries and Issy on Thursday. Like I missed everything, sadly. But. But I think when I have done men's before and in Milan, obviously I only did four shows. The thing to me that's different is like everyone at the men's shows are friends or there are cliques of guys. That doesn't exist in the women's.

[B]

True. I mean, there is a clique of guys like you have got Jacob Samuel Mathieu from Les Co from time to time. I mean, so I would.

[A]

And they're just like loving each other up constantly.

[B]

Yes, indeed. Indeed.

[A]

That does not exist.

[B]

No. You don't have it in women's shows.

[A]

No, I mean, it's like you have your friends. But I think. I don't know. This might. But I. There is a. There is a feeling of like, I need to get back home to my kids.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

Quite a bit with the women's. Of course that does not exist in the men's. To be honest, like, it just isn't. It isn't the narrative of like. Whereas everyone's kind of like. And there's just more. I don't know. Jacob and I have talked about it because he's covered the Women's quite a bit now that he works at the Times and he feels the difference. Like, everybody's just really, really tense. And also the magazines, there are way more people who come. Okay, so like you're kind of with your people who are from your magazine. I'm not like that because I, no matter where I've worked, I've sort of been like on my own, even at BoF, like I was kind of with them, but I would get seated with the Americans a lot. So I would, I tended the way I became friends with Becky Malinsky and Jacob to an extent was because like I was seated with the Wall Street Journal a lot and we would go around together a lot. But, but it's a different, it's definitely a more, a lot more camaraderie and a lot more like, oh my God, let's have fun together. This is so fun.

[B]

We do, we give each other hugs. It's true.

[A]

A lot of hugs that does not happen.

[B]

Very physical thing. I mean it's very friendly. It's almost like team in a way. Yeah, there is that camaraderie. It's true. Small clicks and yeah, we do have this.

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[A]

So what did you see? I was sad to Ms. Sakai because those Birkenstocks looked amazing. I want that. I was like, oh, those are the sandals I needed this summer. They were really good and it's like one of those. It was an example of a shoe that is twisted or whatever on a classic that it actually felt int like useful not even useful, but it looked right. Like sometimes when people do like the Birkenstocks have three different straps, it's just like the Arizona, but they did three straps and they have all different buckles. A lot of times with that kind of stuff, I'm like, that's too fussy for me. And it's like, why? It's like having a third arm on a sleeve or something. But in that case, I was like, oh, this actually looks really good and I will buy these and wear them. I was sad to miss that one. But what did you of what you saw and what you like? The showrooms, the shows. And let's start with Milan. Like, what. What really stood out to you?

[B]

I think there were two, three main shows in Milan. Prada, Ralph Lauren and Armani. I didn't go to Dol. I love Prada, which was. Which everybody didn't like. I liked it because it was radical in a way. I mean, the biggest thing to me wasn't the skinny jeans or the fact that the models were indeed very skinny. What I saw was something radical in its simplicity. And also because this is how we look at shows. At Le Ticket, I saw ideas that you could get into real life. Real life being the streets, real people going to jobs and buying from somewhere else than Prada, actually. So there were simple ideas, like you can dress in a set in a suit, but not have a tailoring suit. You can where denim, red, denim on top in pants, or green or black, but a set of matching top and bottom. So that's an idea you can easily do in real life without even going to Prada. I love the vest, the Jacquard vest, the small old man vest with great Jacquard. I mean, it was also, I mean, the skinny fink. Obviously there is a rock and roll feeling to it, a Nedisley man fink. But I think more than the feet, it was culturally revelant. I mean, you could see this leather jacket with the big collar. We used to call them zippers because they would have in the 70s, big zippers on the front. Plastic one. They change the plastic zippers to metallic one, but still keeping very big with a big collar. That's a 70s fink. I mean, when you know the references, you see it as something more than just a new trend or just a fashion piece. And that's what I liked with that Prada fink is that I could see quite a lot of think that brought to me references, culture, music. This often is the case with Predator, obviously, but the simplicity of the looks to me was more important than the fact that the pants were. Now, I think they will obviously work on the feet for the commercial part. They will make it a bit more wearable. But I like the fact that she was not too overstyled because a lot of the shows were styled, evilly styled. I mean, when you look at Ralph was EVD styled and a lot of people loved it. But I think when I mean, to me it was the collection that half was good. Of course they know what they do. But do you need to add on every tuxedo, like a Navarro cap, plus an indigo patchwork sweater tied around the other shoulders? Do you need to go that far in the styling? Do you need to. I mean, it's like a mountain of accessories falling on the model. I mean, I find it a bit stronger when it's more simple.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's kind of the Michael Ryder effect. And where he's. He is. He's paring back. Like he has. He's has. He has the ultimate sort of sense of style. And obviously what he was doing at Ralph was very affected by how Ralph styles is styled generally. But I think you're right that, like, there needs to be a bit of a respiration, a tearing back now.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, Celine is very styled also. And I was thinking maybe we are going in a season where the stylist at the brand are as important as the designers or the creative directors, because we probably the brands ask the creative director to do something safer, more simple. So when you get to the shows, you still need to create attention and create an event. So maybe you ask the stylist to do more orally. To me, the past few years has been the benchmark in terms of something is happening. But I could go like that in the streets wearing that exact style and setup. But when you push it too much, too far away, you don't see the clothes anymore. You just see a mountain of accessories on one guy and it loses his direction. So that's why Louis Vuitton, even though the collection, I mean, was not to me like, amazing, obviously, but it was better than in the past. But I thought one of the things that they did, and probably Charlotte Collet, who styled it, did, was to make it more simple. Take off a few bags, take off a bit of jewelry, take off wood sometimes. So she made it more simple and more digest. I mean, you could see, you could understand the clothing, the clothes and the silhouette. So style, you need to do it the right way. You can easily go too far but if it's done the right way, sometimes you just need one outfit without any accessories. Sometimes, obviously, you need a sweater. You need to have the hood on. But it needs to. It's quite subtle. I mean, how you style it. And sometimes they went too far. Where Prada was simple and was for that. I like it for that mostly.

[A]

Yeah. And I think Prada, I think they style it themselves now and that it's interesting. A lot of these designers, they go into, like, the ones that have a really good sense and work the best with stylists like Demna or Raph and Mucha Mutual with Lata from you Miu. They will go in and out of even using a stylist.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Like, sometimes Demna uses a stylist and sometimes he doesn't. And Michael Ryder, same thing. I think there's something to it. If you have a good sense of yourself, the only thing the stylist does is help and bring more tension. And I think what Charlotte did. I think the reason Charlotte is so influential, if you look at her work with Auralee and then also obviously Bally and Jill Sander is like, she has. She just proposes. This is how you to wear it. And it's sometimes in like a weird way, but sometimes not. Like, I know that you've written about sweater over your shoulder. Would it be as big of a thing if it wasn't for Charlotte and. Or Lee and the way she knit,

[B]

you know, the way Charlotte style things. It's never ridiculous.

[A]

No. But you know what? She will be annoyed that we're talking about her so much right now.

[B]

Sorry, Charlotte.

[A]

Sorry, Charlotte.

[B]

No, thanks.

[A]

I've been doing a lot of PR for Charlotte.

[B]

I mean, the thing that. I mean, I read a lot of people saying that the styling at Ralph Lauren was amazing. I saw a lot of content around it. Instagram pages, guys. Wow. The styling, I mean, it's just because it makes images, because it makes mountain of information. Color flashing everywhere, details. Navarro. I mean, Boro. You have a preppy everything on one outfit. And it creates an image on Instagram, maybe attractive or at least, I mean, strong. But sometimes you just need to count things down. And it creates. Really f. To create. I mean, to create something simple, then a bit more complicated and back to something simple. And Charlotte, she does it very well. Some brands do it very well. Or Ali has been doing very well. And it's. It. You can. You can kill a collection if you don't do that properly.

[A]

Yeah. You know, it's interesting you mentioned the. The silhouette at Prada and the obsession with it, but also the youth thing. And I tried to stay out of the discourse of like, Raph and Head because people have to remember the whole thing. The reason Hetty hates Kathy Horn is she says that Raph made this the low rise silhouette before Hetty. So the thing is, Raph is a silhouette person. And like that, I stayed out of that. But what I will say is it was obviously like very thinking about youth. And I had had a conversation with someone that week about some club in Milan that was like, cool in the 2010s that RAF used to go to. And then I did the backstage interview with Jonathan at Dior, and he was talking about, like, rave culture coming back in the British suburbs and how he was sort of insp by that and the music and Fred again and all that stuff. But, like, I'm curious what you thought about Dior and how that is in conversation with what was happening at Prada, because I do think there's something connecting the two.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know if you do. Yeah. Would I say that they come from the same background culturally? I think they have an attraction for subcultures. I think they have an attraction more towards underground scenes rather than the luxury world. I think they digested both of them very well. I mean, not being specific about the latter's collection, but their personalities, their culture are very much linked to underground scenes and subcultural movements, which is interesting when

[A]

that doesn't really exist anymore.

[B]

Indeed. I mean, obviously their childhood memories, teenage years, plays a big part in the fantasies that they try and make on the catwalk, in the collections. But yeah, it's interesting to me that you can that kind of profile in such an industry, such a big industry, meaning to speak to as much as possible people, meaning to be understandable, meaning to talk to people who have got money but no specific background into subcultures can give the keys to jobs, to people who are obsessed with niche cultural places, movements, artists. So sometimes I wonder how important in the industry are those guys? I mean, we talk about them all day, obviously. But if it's in industrial terms, is Jonathan Anderson more important than the marketing director at Dior?

[A]

Well, is Jonathan Anderson the marketing director at Dior?

[B]

Maybe. Maybe Ash.

[A]

I think in that case like that he is also that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's a big investment and a big risk on their part in some ways.

[B]

Indeed. For instance, I know Lucas Demo just a few at Kering just a few days ago, told his leading team of managers that he didn't care at all. About artists that he doesn't want art directors to be artists. He wants to sell clothes and if it doesn't fit anyone. For instance, I was told a story that at Ballon Saga shops in Eastern, I think it was in Dubai, they had miniskirts because apparently he saw them. The guy, the salesman at their shop told him, at the Balenciaga shop in Dubai told him, but we don't sell them because the local women obviously don't wear mini skirts. So he went back to Balenciaga and said, why are you doing. Why are they doing miniskirts for that shop in that country? And he was told because Demna wants mini skirts only. I mean, I don't know is it true as Demna being told about it, but he doesn't get it. I mean, even if the vision as Dena is only girls in miniskirts, I mean, he wants to make a product that can be sold and can be bought by people in the local shops. So I mean it doesn't. And I think it's going to be bigger and bigger as the crisis go on and gets maybe deeper and deeper. The artists won't be as free as they used to be 10 years ago. The art directors are often pushed to the front of the scene. But are there the real bosses of the industry are the one that are the most influential in a brand success. You can debate. I mean, it's just question that I ask, but sometimes I wonder.

[A]

Well, it's a great. So here is the question with Luca Deo and on the miniskirt and Demna, I have a pencil skirt from Demna Gucci that is for sale right now. So there may be other. Other skirts available. Maybe not in 100.

[B]

You didn't buy it in Dubai then? No.

[A]

You know what? I have to go. I'm supposed to go to the store in New York and try them on and I was supposed to go last weekend anyway. No one wants to hear about my dramas. My personal dramas of my Demna pencil skirt offline. Study and play come together on a Windows 11 PC. And for a limited time, college students

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Pandora jewelry brings the sparkle to your summer now with even better Prices Enjoy up to 50% off. Select styles from personalized pieces to must have favorites made for the summer. Timeless designs that shine with you through every moment. Barrett the summer takes you. Shop in store or online now through July 6th. Terms and conditions apply. Visit pandora.net for details. So here's the thing about Luca De Mayo. That is the question. Whatever he actually said, he has said something along this line. He wants to sell clothes. Like, I heard this story and they were like, oh, we can't confirm this, but I wrote about it anyway, about him going, taking a team into Zara and being like, why? Why does our thing cost so much more? We can still make a great margin. And this is the same quality. Like, the question is, is he right or not? Because if he's right, to me, the thing that sells clothes in fashion, like, you look at Chanel, Chanel is like, emotional, a fantasy, but also really good quality and a good product that the value. You can feel the value in the product, like the price value equation. It's like the mba Harvard Business School meets a crazy emotion. You have no idea why Katie Grant has 75 bags of Chanel. Like, why is she doing this? Why did I buy a Chanel jacket that I can only wear, I can't wear to lunch on the Upper east side because I'll look silly. But, like, I still bought it and have no money. Now. There's something about it that is. It is the creativity bit that, like. And the reason I think Bernard Arnault has been so successful is he took the private equity model of America and the ruthlessness of that. But then he applied this, like, brand preservation thing. And no matter what you think about those brands, like, they are trying tacky or not, to preserve the brand and then also investing heavily in the creative person. So, like, we can talk about Celine and Michael Ryder, which I think is the sort of platonic ideal of how a brand can work in 2026 and not totally lose its soul. I mean, Celine doesn't really have a soul generally. So it does, but you know what I mean, like, can feel. But I think the. The question for Demeo is, like, letting people loose is what makes you a bunch of money in some ways, like, if you give someone creative reign and they're good, it explodes and becomes like, someone said to me the other day, Michael Ryder would have been so good at Gucci. Like, before when this. Instead of having Saboto, they should have hired Michael Ryder because Gucci was moving in a direction that needed to be preppy. Like, it felt like it needed to be preppy and he would have been amazing. But. But the point being that like you're right, right? If. If Luca. If Luca proves that he. This is just like fashion is just CPG now and you can just make stuff and it's. It's really standardized and that can be successful, then the creative people are going to lose out. But I think what they're going to end up finding is if you look at the most successful brands right now, Chanel, Prada, Mew Mew to an extent, Versace, it was all because the creative people were given like some bit of freedom. And I think with Dior that's just such a tricky situation. But they are. They are invested in him and they will do anything they can to make it work. How that will end up manifesting, I do not know. But. But I think it's a. It's a good question. Like. Like what is what DiMeo thinks gonna actually work? I haven't seen it yet. I don't know the answer.

[B]

I know that Francois Henri Pinault a few years back stated in Aus that they were the group of the Rebels that Alexander McQueen Demna obviously the helm of the biggest Kieran Browns were rebels that the contrary to lvmh Kering should be the brand for the difficult art director and that the DNA of the group was that Lucas demeo I think as coming with the exact opposite idea in that you need to be coherent, you need to be effective, you need to be good quality but not overly designed. I mean it's. Will it work? Will it be enough to create an emotion? How does it compare in a way to Hermes, which obviously is a benchmark of it for the brand is into fashion without being overly fashion is good grid quality that is always the same. You don't see the differences when a new art director comes in. I personally feel that you can have in a one group different way of working. Maybe a brand like Gucci should be mostly quality then after design, while a brand like Alexander McQueen obviously should be a lot more into designs and doing things in its own way. In Classic Web what I find interesting in Michael Ryder's success and if you asked me to choose one luxury brand where I could dress and money is no object, then I would probably right now choose Celine. Once I have said that easy at the same level or intellectual power or easy building a world like Jonathan Anderson does. Easy building a world like Demna did at Balenciaga. Is he making great clothes and clothes I personally want to wear and will put on an etiquette, without a shadow of a doubt. But is he a designer of an artist or an artist director? Is he John Gagniano, in a way or more of a Ralph Lauren. Is he a designer or. Yeah, or an artistic director? I mean, when I saw the selling show, I thought a lot. I thought that a lot of the pieces were desirable. I mean, a lot of it you can wear, you can see yourself. But there were many ideas. A lot of ideas. Maybe in a way, too many ideas. Can I say that? I don't know.

[A]

He has a lot of ideas, but,

[B]

you know, Prada was radical in its simplicity that season. I mean, it's one idea and I push it and I make it. You know, when you look, I was at the Tom Brown show and there is one big idea that he has been doing for ages. One feet, Michael. I've got many in his locker, many fits in his collections, many different. If you look at the pants, pants make a brand. Pants make a silhouette. And he does the skinny, he does the huge. He does low rise, he does high rise. It's very attractive, very commercial. But is it where we are? Eating brands being a bit safer, making good clothes rather than create worlds that can attract a small clique of people but also exclude a lot of people. It's a question. It's nice to. It's interesting to see how everything is evolving nowadays because the industry is in crisis and people try and find solutions. I think Celine will do well in terms of commercial success and they do it well. But is it going to be as striking as Louis Vay's Jonathan Dursen or as Demna's Balenciaga? I am curious to see how it turns out. Is there a Michael Ryder silhouette now? Is there one?

[A]

Yeah, a lot of good points. I think one thing to think about is, I mean, Jonathan is so singular that Loewe had no identity and he gave it an identity. And that's like. When you think about his Dior, no matter what you think, there's a lot to think about. Like, even if you don't like it, like, I think about it for. I do. I think about it for hours a week.

[B]

At night you think of it?

[A]

Yeah, hopefully. I try. Not at night, but, you know, it's these late nights in Paris, it's starting to seep in. I think the two things about Celine. One is Celine as a brand. Like, I made a joke about it being soulless, but it is. And you, you, I. You're French, you know more than me. But, like, it's a bourgeois brand that, like, didn't really have. It's bourgeois, right? Like, it's like, I remember. Do you know Alice Pfeiffer?

[B]

Yeah, of course.

[A]

So once years ago, I wasn't invited to a Celine show, and they. This is, like, 2011, and she got me a photographer pass, and she's like, it doesn't even matter. This is just, like, a bourgeois brand. It is not a thing. Like, it was in the 70s. It's like, ugh. Like, who would wear that? Like, you. Why do you want to? And I went and I sat in the photographer's pit. It was worth it to. I think it was my second. My first Phoebe show. But. But the point being that, like, it's not. It doesn't have an look. Dior doesn't really have a lot of depth either. And that is part of the reason. It has, like, 10 years of amazingness. But, like, it's not Chanel. It doesn't have. Or even Lombin or something. Like, Celine doesn't have a lot of history. And I think the reason why it's worked with all three of those designers is because they understood that it was for selling clothes. And Phoebe, Hetty, Michael, there are people who bought across all those designers, and that's incredible. Maybe Hedy is a little bit out of it.

[B]

You would say, Michael, how do you compare him to Phoebe and Eddie? If you had to rank in a

[A]

way to me, Michael, I mean, Phoebe is Phoebe. Phoebe is the Coco Chanel of our generation. When you say, like, what are you gonna wear? One brand forever. It's a designer of one of these brands asked me, if you had all the money in the world, what would you wear? And I was like, vintage. And Phoebe, like, which is basically what I wear already. Like, it's not an. And Charvet. Yeah, yeah, but. But, like, there isn't. Phoebe is. Is unique. I think the thing that. Michael, I made a joke, and maybe it's a little off color, but, like, for us, by us, like, it's every. All of you. All. All of the snobby Frenchies love it. Like, all of everyone in Europe loves it even more than they love the Chanel. Because it's like, it's about personal style. It is like, let's get on the Runway. And. But I think. And I think he is the ultimate modern creative director. When you talk about what Luca Di Meo wants, that Michael is doing it. Michael has. It has personality, it has soul, it has style, it has flair. But it is also not extremely complicated in any Way. I think the silhouette thing is a good question. I think it will be about a feeling. And then also one interesting thing about it. I have a friend who's a cmo, and we have totally different style and have totally different every single show. We never agree. She'll be like, you like that? And she's from la. We just. Very different. Different. She went to Celine and bought pants. Trousers and that. To me, I was like, okay, this is gonna work. Because if she likes it and I like it. But I think. I think it's a good question. Is. Is Michael like Jonathan and. And gonna make us, like, feel uncomfortable and confused and also happy and elated? No. But, like, every person who went to that show was like, that's my look. That's my look. And I think it's very modern. And he also knows how to work within these corporate organizations, which is really, really hard.

[B]

I wonder whether we can say that in a time of crisis, fashion cannot be challenging. I mean, if it makes sense, in a way. I mean, if I am a CEO, do I want a challenging design designer, or do I want someone who doesn't exclude. That has a bit of everything for everyone that can be styled with vintage. With Zara someone. Yeah, it's a good question. And what I like about Michael Rylo is also the way he. Because when you compare him to Eddie Sliman, both on the designs, on the way they approach fashion, and the personality, the difference is so striking. I mean, Eddie has been pushing for ages, one look, one idea. Michael has several. Eddie is like a star designer, creative director, isolated from the rest of the team. Michael is very much, in being very human, very talkative, very close to his teams. So obviously that makes him. There is something with Michael right there that goes. When you work in that industry, that goes even further than the clothes. I mean, you want to wear his clothes because you feel he designs for you and you want to have dinner with him. In a way, totally. I mean, it's funny because when you talk to him, I mean, he will express things that we maybe think about the industry we work on. You do sometimes you wonder, am I right to love fashion? Is it normal? Should I hate it? Should I hate all that? Should I hate that industry? And what makes Michael a very likable character? That I think maybe, I mean, we should ask him. But that maybe that kind of question goes through his mind. That is part of it. But also he doesn't agree with everything that he sees that maybe does. Having talked to him now, it's an interesting character. Position and concept in the industry nowadays. It's interesting.

[A]

Yeah. I think he's very millennial. I think we're the same age. And he's around our age too. Like, we're all around 43, 44. He is a typical millennial in that he's a company man and he wants to make money, but he also, like, questions it. And I think that's. He knows how to work within the system and he also does not seem to have. It's not about him.

[B]

No.

[A]

And. And that is. It is about him, but it's not. And that's kind of what we are all like. Like, it's. Like it's not about us, but it is. And. And whereas, like. Like there are other generations where it's totally about the person and not. And I think Jonathan is grappling this with this in a different way. Like, it has been about him so much because he was made a genius, but he also understands that he needs to work with in this system. And Demna, same thing. Like, I'm at the Caring Investor Day with Demna who's, like, talking to Luca Silka. And these are things that. Can you imagine John Galliano talking to lucasolca? No. So. Or even Alessandro Zero, to be honest. Like. Like there is something about all of us that we're all. Like, we know we have. If we want to make money and enjoy our lives, we have to work. But there is also a. I'm only gonna work within the system, so I can try to subvert it to an extent. But it's a. It's a tricky time. And I think the thing I wrote and maybe they'll edit it is like, he. Michael is sort of the. The creative director for our time, like, of this. This tricky time in the world where and everything's uncertain and the industry's consolidated and it's going to start to decline and. And people just want to feel good. And you could say that Mattieu is actually that. Because he. But I think in terms of, like, within. Within the ecosystem of these brands that aren't. It's not Chanel.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, Michael is. And it's gonna. It will work. And I think when you mentioned the Re See thing, I'm really sad not to be in Paris a. Because I didn't get to go to the show, but also because the Re See was so great last year.

[B]

One thing he does very well is create Instagram images without. I mean, the Re Sees are great Instagram images. When you look at the way they set up the clothes it's so perfect for a story format on your Instagram page. He's very good at that too. And yeah, I do wonder whether there is still room for what we call a genius in fashion. I mean, obviously Jonathan can say he's one and there are arguments to say that he's one.

[A]

I think what kind of genius he is is the question. Yeah, I think he is, but I think it's like more about the psychological way he is able to manage all of that stuff and less about the design itself.

[B]

Even. Even Matthew Blazi, when you think of it, I place him in a category close in a way to Michael. He went in a brand with more. More of an history and an aesthetic than Celine. He is playing with it. He's managing the marketing demand. The commercial demand is marketing a team of people that has become very big in a few weeks without breaking the mold, without reinventing the wheel. But he's a great designer, doing it in a balanced way, not being friendly with everyone. And I think that's a new model. It's quite at ease with the fact that these people, the kind of profile of designers and are being success and are being hired. So, yeah, maybe. Maybe it's something new and different.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. I think you hit the nail on the head with that. What else did you see at the showrooms and things? Was there anything that, like one other brand that really stood out to you that wasn't a Runway show or being at the showroom made you think about it differently?

[B]

What did I. So I liked a dress, obviously, which was a show.

[A]

It's really nice.

[B]

Yeah, it is nice. And in a way the example of a transition that is being handled very well. Going from Andries to Julianne Klassner, of course. What else did I saw? Did I see that I liked?

[A]

What do you think of our legacy?

[B]

Oh, yeah, I went to our legacy. I think our legacy is doing a good job, A very good job. I mean, it's balanced. There is something to it. It's not nothing. I mean, there is an identity. You obviously have images in mind. When you think of the brand, you think of the canyon boots, you think of black, you think of faded plaids, you think of the Z orientated shirts. I think they are smart in digging into subcultures, but not making, excluding to people. They digest it in a proper way. You don't feel that LV Match have started investing in them. You don't feel like they are pushing the brand too much, too quick, too mainstream. I think it's balanced I think I can see. I mean, they have a community, I mean, which is quite impressive. I think they do well. I mean, now that you asked me about the showroom that I saw and like. I mean, I like obviously Japanese brands like Apres, which is a small tailoring based brand. But yeah, our legacy is good. I think they are quite pressive in their references at the gate, but they digest it very well and I think they're doing well.

[A]

Yeah, it's an interesting. I really liked the imagery that they released and again, I had to leave so I could not go to see it. But I just find their. The classic stuff and the Runway to be so. Yeah, separate and that. I. I don't know. Someone said that they have, like, there's one guy who's like, very classic and the other guy is more the Runway. And they work well together. But it's very separate. And I wonder long term, because going to the store we went in Berlin, I was like, this is not. Not for. Not for me in any way. But I think the cl. I don't know, it's. It's interesting. I feel like they have a lot of potential, like that brand MF Pen also, which feels like. Of that. And that guy seems. I met him at the LVMH prize. He seems like, super, wants to do well and aggressive and ambitious. And so I think there's something in that world of like, maybe our legacy can not mess up where acne messed up or something.

[B]

You think? You think acne messed up?

[A]

Yeah, I was thinking about it because

[B]

I. Yeah, I think so.

[A]

Because I went to the acne paper thing and I was talking to someone who does some work for them and I said, you know, I really stopped paying attention when he said in a press thing like 10 years ago that he wanted to be the Swedish Prada. And I was like, I can't deal with this anymore. And I've seen like they were trying to raise money and I'm sure they did before the. Like at the beginning of the pandemic or right before. And I remember seeing their fundraising deck and it was such, like, I bought all my jeans there for so long. And. And the. Even the smiley face when it got more mass, like, it still made a lot of sense. And I think, like, if you look at an ami, which has done a pretty good job managing the mass. The mass, you know, proliferating or whatever. And then also, whether you like it or not, like, I think they've done a good job with it or like in our legacy, which is More of the same lineage of. Of.

[B]

Of a.

[A]

And. And I just think, like acne. Could it have been the next product? No, but it. Could it have been something where. Like we were still shopping there. Yes. And I don't. I think it's a. It's a little dis. I was. I. The. I'm. I'm a little disappointed in it and don't really know.

[B]

I think that I've gone a bit too far in the fashion surge in being extreme, in being. In creating attention, whether. I mean, at some point, because I am. I obviously wear suits a lot. And when.

[A]

Not last week.

[B]

No, thankfully. But when some guy would be asking 10 years ago for a coach, I mean, they don't want to go bespoke, of course, because it's longer too expensive. You would direct him to acne because they would make a good navy overcoat. You wouldn't do it that way nowadays. You would push it to maybe orally or somewhere else. But yeah, I mean, sort of, yeah, they have gone probably a bit too far in being fashion.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, let's talk a bit about letiquette.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And also explain how you came to be, because I didn't know anything about you before a few months ago. I just knew that you were the editor of let's Ette and that you had this column in this other. In this French paper where you talk. You wrote about wearing sweaters over your shoulder. So every week you have an interesting background and also you're famous in France because you're on TV every week.

[B]

Yes. A small fame, but still no. So I'm very much of a journalist. So I always define myself as being a journalist artist. I started as a Sports Football Writer 20 years back now at L' Equipe France. Football, which are the biggest sports titles in French, I'm aware at the time, but I have always been fascinated with subcultures. So my teenage passions were football, music and fashion, obviously style. So even when I was working on sports, I would write and think about closing. I did a lot of texts and articles for the French GQ when it was released. I wrote when I was studying. A big memory, a big text on the way rock stars have been wearing ties over the years. From Kurt Cobain wearing a Bourgs Vouser tie on the COVID of his best of album, to Buddy Oli to, I mean, Sid Vicho wearing a leather tie, you know, at the Think in the SM way. So I wrote a lot about that. And what really my think with clothes is was to start with the Subcultures, So I was dressed as a mods. When I was 20, I was into ties, double breasted suits. I had the air going on my forehead, which was quite bad. But so I have always linked close to music mostly, but also movies, sports, culture, et cetera. So I'm not a runaway guy in a sense that I didn't look at Vogue as I look at LME magazine or as a couptable music magazine when I was was a teenager or when I was 20. So I worked in sports. Then we launched, we created a media group called sopress, where we created a football magazine, then a news magazine that I ran for a few years, even a movie magazine. And on the side I wrote about closing for. I started writing about closing for gq, then Le Monde offered me a cologne. Then I went on TV in the biggest late show in France, which is called Cotidien, talking weekly about the way people dress, going from the president to the people at the shows, to people on the streets. So I have always, in a way, considered clothes to be a cultural object. To me, what you wear is as relevant as what you read, what you watch, what you listen to, to, as long as it's done in an independent and informed way. So over the years I have done plenty of things. I styled Francois Hollande when he was president for just a couple of hours. I saw him for two hours in his office when he was running France, which was a big failure for me, as he's difficult to drive. I also mean, I was also chief editor for Holiday magazine the first seven years.

[A]

And is that how you ended up starting La Toquette?

[B]

Yeah, in a way, because we did, with Franck Durand, we did Holiday. And then I met also Gaultier Borsalo, who I work with. He's a friend and an art director, very much into vintage clothing. So at some point I told Gaultier we should launch a menswear magazine influenced in a way by Japanese magazine, but let's do it our way. So we created it with Franck and with Gautier. And Franck was the art director of Litigate also. So it was a bunch of people deciding to make a good menswear magazine because they just liked clothing, because they liked it, because they saw it as more than shopping. We don't do shopping. We do a lot, but we don't really like to word it that way. So that's how we ended creating Litiket in 2018. And it has grown. It was supposed to be just one of your issue. It's now two. We Also have a women's issue. We have the men's issue in French and also in English edition. The women's issue. We are starting the English edition in September. So it's a nice little thing to do. People like it. Thankfully. I'm always very touched and moved when people talk to me about it and come to me and say, I love liti. I want people to read the magazine. Not just. The thing I hate is when people take a fashion magazine and browse through the pages, like, quickly. And I see people doing it all the time. My solution to this is to put text in every pages. So you have fashion images, but there is text on it. So you don't browse through it. You read the image.

[A]

I do a lot of Google translating when I'm looking through left to catch.

[B]

Soon you will have it in English.

[A]

It's okay. I need to learn French, so it's fine.

[B]

So some people learn French with it on. Send us reports of what they learn in the issue.

[A]

Yeah, sometimes I know enough context that the English translation, I'm like, I know this isn't exactly what it means, but yeah, it's funny. And Lolita Jacobs is your fashion director for the women's. She's super chic. She recommended my hair colorist. She said it's very intimate.

[B]

That's chic.

[A]

But to me, I love it. And all the American editors love it. It reminds me of. And you mentioned it's not about shopping, which it's not like there. There's a lot. I love the Caroline de Roche Pasquier piece. And like, there's a lot of you always. I. I was interviewed for a story you all did on skims. Like it's. It's basically like it's an enthusiast magazine. There's. But it reminds me, I worked for this magazine. Not gonna like the comparison, but called Lucky magazine, which was a magazine about shopping, but it was also based on Japanese magazines. And it was like the ultra, ultra Americanized commercial version of La Tiquette. But I think it was really about style and about personal style. And I think one of the things a. I love it. And every single time I read through it, I find a brand that I haven't heard of or. Or I think of a new. You use a lot of vintage and you mix it in with new. There was a pair of Hermes mules in the last issue, women's issue that I was like, those are Hermes. And I would buy. I would buy them. Like, there's. There's always something and it feels useful. But it's still fun. It's just. It's not. It's. You're right. Like now you either you. You read a magazine like New York Magazine or the New Yorker for the articles and you read. If you look at a fashion magazine. Yeah, I'm not reading double or dubla or whatever you call it in French for the articles, no offense. Like, I'm looking at the images and love it. But I'm not going to read the Q and as that they have in there or whatever. Whereas what you're doing, I. All the, like people, they. They shoot people on the street where it's. It's a real person and they're. And you tell the story of their outfit. I want to know who these people are and what they do. And I do use the translate or whatever. But I think one of the, of the. The things that I like most about it is with the models. You use the same models throughout the issue. So like a model will be in one editorial and then back 50 pages later in another one. You're like, oh, I just saw that woman. There was. There were a bunch of. In the recent women's issue, a bunch of pregnant women. Like more than one, which I really like too. I don't know, it's.

[B]

It's quite simple. Simple. Something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, the idea is what we do is a lot, when you look at the fashion is outfits that you can wear. We do outfits. We don't do images. So the pictures are simple. The white background is always there. And we don't. We explain what we do. It's not like we are, you know, fashion God. And we tell you it is this way. Look at it. Do it the same at your place. We explain it because it requires explanation. We can show something and tell people. You can also do it a bit differently. So we explain things. And what I like is the idea that we are the stylish friend of your band, of your group of friends. We are the one who is the most into clothes and we just. Why don't you try this thing? Maybe you should put your sweater over your shoulders. It's just give ideas to people. Being enthusiastic, not having some cheap, some things that are very accessible, some more expensive, having diversity. I mean, it's crazy that being friendly is strange in fashion world, but being nice in a way, being cool. Just relax.

[A]

Text. It's friendly, but it's not stupid. No. And it's also not like it's. It's about having taste like you're not there. It has high standards. Yeah, so, like, it feels open, but it also is like the, like, it was funny. I was reading Lolita's small column of what she's wearing because I bought it because I'm in New York, and I was like, oh, I just need to get. Because I needed something yesterday. And she's like, I'm never wearing capri pants. I just bought capri pants. And I was like, should I have not done that? No, I'm. I like mine. But. But. But it is. It. It has. There's. It has standards and there is a sense of, like, yes, you should care about this stuff. And I think the thing you said. I always bring this up, but years ago, probably 20 years ago, I interviewed this woman, Robbie Myers, who was the editor in chief of America, American Elle for a long time, and she was like, I treat fashion the way all the other pillars of pop culture, and in America, it's really not like that. And I always think about this too. Like, you can hide your taste in music or film or whatever, but you can't really hide your taste in clothing because. And it's. It makes people uncomfortable. And in America in particular, that is a. It's. It's a. A point of tension and a point of stressors and that. So I have this one final question for you about a particular way of dressing. But, yeah, I think that, like, it's. It's. The funny thing about. Let's get. Is all I think about is, like, all the financial and commercial opportunities you probably have, and especially if you launched a US Edition. But we could. I know you're not going to do that, but we could talk offline, because I swear to God, like, as an American, this is the first thing that would probably ruin it, but it is like.

[B]

It just feels like I'm so bad at it. It's terrible.

[A]

I know, but you know. You know how many people have already asked me, like, should I launch the American version?

[B]

Oh, really? I mean, it's. Yeah, we'll.

[A]

We'll discuss it. We'll discuss it.

[B]

I need some help on the. On the financial side. I'm so bad at it.

[A]

If you want to give Mark money.

[B]

Yes, please, I beg there.

[A]

You're probably gonna get. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so this is my last question because we already. Usually. This is an hour. It's almost two, but this was really fun. Okay. I am in New York immediately. The first thing I do in New York, I am having. I'm dealing with some stuff and trying to distract myself. I'm like, I need to buy New leggings.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Cause I go to this legree class in Paris. Paris, and I need better leggings, but I am not buying leggings in Europe. My question for you is, okay, Someone was like, don't you have aloe in Paris? I'm like, sure, but it's going to be more expensive. Also, I tried to go to aloe and the line was. The queue was so long. I was like this. I'm not going to go. Like, I didn't. I haven't bought any. But the point being, I think there's. I have a piece on Tuesday about, like, there's still just a. A lot of opportunity, but in America.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

People just wear leggings all the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like on. I wore. On Sunday, I went to Pilates at 9:30am and I wore them with. And I wore a big T shirt and I. And kids. And I ended up wearing them all day. Like, if I had gone to a restaurant for lunch, I would not. But there are many people who do.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And every person I ran into was dressed. This is New York City, very informally.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

In Paris, you could not do that. Like, I, I take my leggings to Pilates and I, I change. I would never do that. I'm curious, from your perspective, though, are you noticing the casualization of the US and the uk? Has it become more casual as someone who likes wearing suiting, who was a mod, who was all that stuff? Like, are you noticing that people are becoming more casual in Paris as well? Or do you think that will not happen there to the extent that it is here? Because you go to San Diego here and you're not going to see anyone in anything but elastic pants, like, not even jeans.

[B]

It's funny because a couple of days ago, a friend of mine, a girlfriend of mine, a girl, she sent me a picture of a girl she took on the streets. And the girl was wearing aloe, from what I gather. And she told me, it's crazy. That girl and I have seen a few like this are going out in the city in brazier. I mean, I don't know how you call it in, like a sports bra. Yeah, sports bra.

[A]

A cropped sports bra.

[B]

Loose legging. Me write about it in Le Mans. Say we don't. We cannot do that. So it shocks people.

[A]

I think you should write about it.

[B]

Yeah. So I thought, like, the tricky part. The tricky part is, as always, do you. Can you. Can I, as a man, the white man in his 40s, tell the girls how to dress? I mean,

[A]

I think maybe Maybe. Maybe you can and just expect to get a lot of hate. I don't know. I think it's interesting. Like, whether or not you think it's appropriate is not my question.

[B]

Yeah, of course.

[A]

My question is, do you think it's because, like, when I go to this class, La Greenus Jade. Shout out to Jade, my instructor there. It's extremely hard. It's like the only hard workout class I've ever found in Paris. Sometimes the girls wear like tennis skirts.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like. Like I. A lot of them have sets on and it's a lot of Americans or. Or Dutch or whatever. Like a lot of not French people there. And it is a very. Like, if you're gonna wear sporty and rich, these people know what sporty and rich is. Like it.

[B]

But.

[A]

But I am curious. Like, just. Do you think. Because I think about the last time we spent a good chunk of time in Paris in 2019. And like I remember, remember go. I was a big runner at the time and showing up for breakfast in a. After a run and like feeling uncomfortable in my leggings. I think now it would be a little more accepted. But do you think. Do you think that it will just move towards that where. Because in America, like, I think you would be a little appalled. Like it. I'm appalled. I just can't believe that people it's. And yes, I mean, I did it yesterday, but I still. Like, I had kids on and I had on like a funny shirt. Like I tried a little bit like. And I didn't mean to. It just turned out that I never ended up going back to the apartment to change.

[B]

I remember probably 10 years ago, Karl Lagerfeld said in France, and the sentence is well known and he said wearing tracksuits is giving up on life. When you give up, you wear tracksuits. I don't know if you could say that anymore. Nowadays it has become. Yeah, I think there is a causalization of the way people dress. Even in Paris. We probably start from a higher standard than in the US Obviously we dress a bit better than you do. Well, a bit more. But we can also say that we are always a bit late on the trip trends. So I think we'll reach point where we dress the way you do. The way do currently the Americans. You would say that it's a trend. It's a way of showing the work of the result of you sports work, your body for girls.

[A]

I think that's part of it. But I also think it's a comfort thing and it's just this idea of, like, people never. The thing I said to someone recently is it's not like in 1950s, in the 1950s, when teenagers started wearing jeans to heist in high school, that we ever went back. Like, it's never going to go back to, like, a suit. Suiting is trendy right now. And, like, people are wearing suits, but it's never going to be that a guy has to wear a suit every single day to work anymore. Like, it's just not. Not ever going to go back. But I think. I don't know. It's a strange. It's. It's an interesting thing because what, what people in Europe have is like, that you're. You grow up. Like, it's okay to be enthusiastic about clothing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And not just as a status market, whereas in America, it's only status.

[B]

That's sums up what we said to me and probably to some people in Paris. And dressing is expressing in a visual way, in a very accessible, tangible way, your culture. I mean, when I dress, I hope people can guess what I listen to, what music I like, what readers I write, I read. Sorry. Or movies I like. So to me, not dressing, I mean dressing in purely comfort clothes or clothes that only cover myself. I hate the idea. It's having no culture. It's like, you know, you don't express anything for your clothes. And I think clothes are made to express something.

[A]

Okay, to be continued. This is great. Mark, thank you for being here.

[B]

Thanks a lot, Lauren. It was a big pleasure. Pleasure.

[A]

For me. It was so fun. We'll have you back again.

[B]

Yeah, okay.

[A]

Thanks a lot and see you in Paris.

[B]

Thank you. See you soon.

[A]

Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. The show is produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, producer Maya Tribbett and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, Kelly Turner and Bob Tabador.

[B]

Every act of change begins with a neighbor. When neighbors connect through the Feeding America Network, small actions ripple into lasting impact. Feeding America, led by neighbors. Give now to [e-mail].