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Sarah Harrelson
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Lauren Sherman
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Lauren Sherman
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Sarah Harrelson
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Lauren Sherman
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Sarah Harrelson
Whoa. When did I get here?
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Lauren Sherman
What do you mean?
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Sarah Harrelson
I swear it was just moments ago that I accepted a great offer from Carvana Online. I must have time traveled to the future.
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Lauren Sherman
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Sarah Harrelson
It is the future.
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Lauren Sherman
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Sarah Harrelson
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- [01:00]
Lauren Sherman
Foreign welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet and today with me on the show is Sarah Harrelson, founder and editor in chief of Cultured. We're talking art versus fashion, building a media company in 2025 and so much. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the art world and much more. If you're interested listeners of Fashion People get a discount. Just go to Puck News slash Fashion People to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday everyone. Hope you had a great weekend. Happy Birthday to many people in my life. Happy Birthday to my friend Amanda. Happy Birthday to Puck's very own Alex Bigler and Allie Hadamer. Happy Birthday to all the other people whose birthday it was this week who would not want to be named on here because they don't like being in the press. You know who you are. I don't know if you all listen to this. Actually I DM these people directly Happy birthday to me. My birthday's tomorrow. Super nice. I'm excited. I love birthdays. I'm a Leo. Late July, early August. People are great people. It was a very, very busy week for Line Sheet. Rachel Strugatz had an incredible piece on Wednesday. She had details on Ulta's plan to compete against Sephora globally, which I think they probably never believed would happen. And it's happening. It's really interesting. Both of those companies are fascinating and really well run and competitive and so it should be a fun battle brewing. I also checked in on Conde Nast on multiple occasions. I think this is my like mid year check in can move on for a while. And today Sarah Shapiro gave a sort of state of the union on the activewear market. So as you all know, Aldor Voices relaunched this week with Ty Haney back. I did speak with Ty a bit on Monday and I'm hoping that she will come on the podcast and we can chit chat further. But so far it, I mean it reads pretty young. It's not super active weary on the face of it, but there's a fabric that she talked about called bubble wrap that she's really excited about and the base, the basis is still, you know, active behaviors. So let's see. The product comes out for everyone August 5th. I think you can get a preview if you sign up on August 4th. I'm excited to see it. In other news, Athleta got a new CEO, someone from Nike. Reminder that Athleta is owned by Gap. And in the biggest news, I bought my first set from Vuori. So it's not really a set. I actually don't know if I own any sets. I actually just bought a very simple set from split splits 59 then and that's super nice. But I got a pair of those piped really athletic drawstring shorts with a tank top and honestly, it's super nice. I don't like how soft the material is. I know everybody likes that. It's a little creepy to me. But there's compression. I don't look bad. It's fine. I really like it. I. I might buy something from them again. They've obviously changed their merchant or their designer and the colors are much better than before. So check it out. I'll probably have Sarah on soon to discuss all of this. Maybe we'll just do like a big what's going on in activewear. But to me the big thing is the market is definitely fragmenting and the needs are changing. I think that's why you saw Ty, do like a button down shirt, which doesn't totally makes sense on the face of it, but clearly made sense to her. And I think you'll see more of that. I would say Yuri, the stuff that did not look good were like their khakis and things like that. I was like, I would, I wouldn't go there, but the colors are improving. Anyway, as Rachel Scrot said the other day in our line sheet Slack, she's just, she was like, I'm so overlooking, trying to look cute at workout classes. Like, I don't need to do that. And I think a lot of people feel that way. But you do want performance. And I'd say the big picture thing to me is that we're entering this post leggings era of the legging, meaning that you probably already own enough leggings, but you probably also won't stop buying them. It's sort of like jeans. So anyway, we'll get into that more soon and I hope you enjoy this conversation with Sarah. Sarah Harrelson, welcome to Fashion People.
- [06:09]
Sarah Harrelson
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on.
- [06:12]
Lauren Sherman
What'd you have for breakfast this morning?
- [06:14]
Sarah Harrelson
I did not have breakfast this morning, but I did have a sandwich, an arugula and tomato sandwich about an hour ago.
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Lauren Sherman
Ooh, that sounds good.
- [06:23]
Sarah Harrelson
Yeah, from that bakery across the street from my apartment in New York, which is divine, called S' More Bakery.
- [06:30]
Lauren Sherman
Oh, that sounds delicious. I just had to cancel my lunch because of this breaking Vanity Fair news. This won't run this week, I don't think, but we are talking out about an hour after Mark Guiducci was named the global editorial director of Vanity Fair. And so I had to do a little work before and cancel my lunch and cancel the podcast before this. So I'm glad we were still able to squeeze this in, but I'm looking forward to lunch and now have been inspired by your choice.
- [07:05]
Sarah Harrelson
Well, I'm happy, I'm happy for Mark and I'm happy for this announcement. And you know, I think, you know, I guess it's kind of been expected to be him for the last couple weeks. Based on your extensive reporting, I will.
- [07:20]
Lauren Sherman
Say that there were a lot of. You know, actually I would say my boss agreed with me and thought that he was probably the one. But I would also say there were a lot of people around me who doubted me. And this morning I did have a couple. I told you. And these people were like, yes, you were right. You were right all along.
- [07:41]
Sarah Harrelson
I have to say, I think it's an excellent choice.
- [07:44]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, I think, look, I have to really come at it with a really critical eye, but it is the right choice for Anna Wintour. It is the right choice for the company at this point in time. I think something that I wrote in my column the day it happened, for anyone who wants to look back, it's June 10th. I think that not many people know about his editorial prowess. And I have a little more because I cover the fashion industry. And obviously Red Garage, as we were talking about before we came on, his Garage magazine was really cool. And also.
- [08:24]
Sarah Harrelson
And I think one of the best covers was totally right in his tenure at Garage. Some of the absolute best art and art and fashion covers.
- [08:32]
Lauren Sherman
Totally. And then the other big thing is he has a lot to do with the covers of Vogue. And so you can see some of the more ambitious covers they've done. I know he orchestrated those. He also. So I think, like, his editorial aptitude is probably higher than a lot of people realize. And then the other point is, look, he's great at orchestrating things. He can orchestrate the Vanity Fair Oscar party. He can orchestrate the closing of a magazine. He is ambitious and he wants it. And so look, like, there's no perfect person for this job at this time in this era. But I think he was the right choice. And it's very clear from now looking back that it was always going to be him. There were some steps in between, but it's been fun to watch, and I'm looking forward to covering him. I was thinking about this the other day. I was talking to someone from Conde, and all these people who are now in these roles are people who I sort of grew up with. As they were doing their job, I was doing my job. And mine was always sort of a parallel path, but now it's sort of people in our generation, which is really exciting and interesting because it's happening. And so these are people I've known forever, and they are suddenly the boss. And I have been writing about them for a long time, but it changes the dynamic. So it's very exciting. And you are part of this. You have created this magazine that I and everyone should read. Marianne Menaker, who writes our art column Wall Power, did a profile view probably six months ago now, or maybe eight months a year ago, I don't know. But that was really about how cultured has become, has risen up in the center of the art world. And I have been really impressed. We've gotten to know each other since you moved to Los Angeles. We both moved to Los Angeles during COVID But I've been really impressed by talking about orchestration. Like, not only you creating this magazine and bringing all these people together and having, like, a very rich magazine with a lot. It says a lot, but also your. Your sophistication and ability to create events that not only people want to go to enjoy, but also that advertisers are really interested in. So I want to talk to you about all of that today before. Before we get into it, let's discuss how. What. How did you get your start in journalism and what did you. What's sort of your background? Give me your. Your bio in. In 60 seconds or less, or maybe.
- [11:27]
Sarah Harrelson
A little more seconds.
- [11:29]
Lauren Sherman
You can go a little longer than that.
- [11:31]
Sarah Harrelson
No, I'll. I'll be as fast as I can, I guess. You know, in truth. And I've said this before, but my. My kind of introduction. I grew up in a suburb in New Jersey. I grew up, you know, competing in the equestrian world. So I was exposed to a lot at a young age. I was kind of homeschooled before people were homeschooled. And then I. My brother was in a TV show when I was in college. I was studying politics at nyu, and my brother.
- [11:55]
Lauren Sherman
What TV show was he in?
- [11:57]
Sarah Harrelson
It's a Darren Starr, as it has, like, the only failed TV show he's ever done. It's called Models, Inc. Oh, my.
- [12:02]
Lauren Sherman
I know Model Zinc.
- [12:03]
Sarah Harrelson
Well, my brother had long, dark hair and was. I can't.
- [12:06]
Lauren Sherman
I don't remember that much, but that's awesome.
- [12:08]
Sarah Harrelson
It was a long time ago. I was in college. But anyway, and, you know, I was really intrigued. I was studying the politics of poverty, and I wouldn't really say I was intrigued by. I was intrigued by, you know, all these kind of like, you know, creative ecosystems. But, you know, I. It's always hard to. An entry point to magazines is always a little bit confusing unless you kind of grow up around it. So in this time when I was in college and studying and my brother was dating Elizabeth Saltzman, who was then.
- [12:38]
Lauren Sherman
I guess she was.
- [12:39]
Sarah Harrelson
I think she was already at Vanity Fair. I can't believe. I can't remember, but it is so long ago. And I remember, like, so vividly asking her, like, what does she do? Like, what do you do there? Like, I was very earnest, and she was like, something like, she'll kill me for this. But she was something like, you know, I just connect people or something. Something that I was like, wait a minute. Like, this seems kind of intriguing, this little path here to magazines. And it was A very glamorous time in magazines. I graduated college in 1994, and then I worked for. I was a editorial assistant at Elle.
- [13:11]
Lauren Sherman
Who was the editor of Elle at that time?
- [13:13]
Sarah Harrelson
Amy Gross.
- [13:15]
Lauren Sherman
Okay. I don't know much about her.
- [13:18]
Sarah Harrelson
And I remember Jennifer Lange was her assistant who ended up being a beauty editor. I think I have her name right. And I just remember when she went to the bathroom, I had to sit down and answer, like, the phone, because the phone was never allowed to go to voicemail.
- [13:31]
Lauren Sherman
Interesting.
- [13:33]
Sarah Harrelson
And then I remember thinking, you know, oh, my gosh, like, I have to move to a smaller city because I'll be 30 before I'm an editor. Before I could climb the masthead. And then that was kind of. I had a friend who was in art and had just written a book. And I remember I got a job for. I mean, I don't even think it was $18,000 a year at a small magazine. And I moved to Miami without knowing anyone.
- [13:58]
Lauren Sherman
My God.
- [13:59]
Sarah Harrelson
My mom said, why would you move to this city, this godforsaken city where everyone is naked?
- [14:04]
Lauren Sherman
So you weren't married. Were you married already or partnered up or anything?
- [14:09]
Sarah Harrelson
I was 23. But it is. That is the moment when I met my husband. Shock.
- [14:13]
Lauren Sherman
He. Did you meet him in New York or meet him?
- [14:15]
Sarah Harrelson
No, he was from New York, but he was like. He was working in fashion, and he was like, I'm going to go to Miami for six months and just like, chill. He's older. And so he was my friend. Basically had this building, and it was like, I only rent to people I know. And so I moved into this building and I worked at this magazine called South Florida Magazine. And within two years, I was the editor in chief.
- [14:38]
Lauren Sherman
And was South Florida magazine like one of these custom publishing?
- [14:42]
Sarah Harrelson
No, it was like. I don't know how to compare it, because there's kind of. Not really. It's kind of an ecosystem that doesn't really exist anymore. But it was a little bit like the precursor. The precursor to an ocean drive. It was. It was a true city magazine, actually. And it was actually a. It's kind of embarrassing, but it actually was kind of a good city magazine. Yeah, but it wasn't, you know, it wasn't necessarily at all glamorous, but it was a good city magazine. We covered all sorts of things. And so I. I stayed there for two years. But it being Miami in those, you know, mid-90s, it was kind of a fascinating time. A lot of people were coming through. I remember I did the segment for CBS this morning, because I was, I was like, I'll get up at five o' clock in the morning. I'll be like the style reporter. And I remember I did. I. I was thinking about it recently too. I went and I covered all the shows. They were like, you can go cover all the shows as long as you pay for yourself. And I was like, okay, no problem. But it is, it is. You know, I was thinking back, I was like, how did I even get like invited to the show that this small magazine? But I did. I went a couple years, so. So that's kind of how I got my start. And then I moved from there to LA, and then from LA back to New York. And then in 2001 is when I moved back to Miami, which there's a lot of years. People are always like, whatever. And I'm like, yes, well, there's many years I've lived. So lots of different, I guess these three cities on rotation.
- [16:10]
Lauren Sherman
Well, it must have been the 90s. It feels like now. And I think it is just also time. But it feels like a golden era for fashion, for magazines, for publishing. It must have been like you mentioned working at South Florida and being invited to shows and things. The local news and local publications were really important during that time. I think a lot about the era of Booth, shout out to Booth Moore, who we love. Somebody needs to hire her asap. I'm sure she's doing something already, but she is best. But I remember her being at the LA Times and she, her and Robin Gavon, who were at the Post, like they were. Their jobs were really important, like they were. And I remember going to an Hermes show, my first Paris Fashion Week, and sitting next to Bill Cunningham and him saying, like, all the reporters from like the south of France who used to come and that it was. It must have been an amazing time to be working in this world.
- [17:17]
Sarah Harrelson
But also you had access. Like, I remember Isaac Mizrahi would come through. I could interview him. Like, I think that's what I. People maybe now don't understand because mastheads have changed so much in staffing. But if you are a young editor, no matter how young or talented you were in those mid-90s, you didn't get to do that interview. You weren't given the opportunity to interview really anyone. So I feel like for me at that point, whether it was flawed thinking or not, that kind of worked for me. And I was like, I wrote. I was able to write cover stories for InStyle at that time, when InStyle was saddle stitched. I actually have the issue. And so it just was like. I think it actually did give me a little bit of a head start. And also it made me recognize early on, I think I wanted to be a writer when I started. But I think what that access gave me and that experience gave me was the perspective that for me, I'm so fascinated by the entire magazine. Like, I'm. I'm a visually led editor. I'm like, I was. I'm kind of so interested in all of it, which kind of helped me decide the path I wanted to take within magazines. Which is. Which is hard to do sometimes. Yeah, it's hard to figure out, like, the part you love. Heading back to school. Head to DSW first and save up.
- [18:34]
Lauren Sherman
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- [18:40]
Sarah Harrelson
And accessories from Nike, Adidas, Crocs, Reebok, hey, dude.
- [18:45]
Lauren Sherman
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- [19:08]
Sarah Harrelson
Yep. So I worked at Womenswear in LA, and then I was the entertainment editor for 17, and then I moved to Miami. There was, you know, my. My mother had health issues young, and my husband was like, let's move back to Miami. And I was like, Miami? I was like, that's like the land of the lost.
- [19:26]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. But anyway, the naked people place.
- [19:29]
Sarah Harrelson
But anyway, we did have. And I still to this day have some of my best friends there. And so at that point, I'd had my son and I was like, okay, great, but what will I do with my huge career? LOL. But again, I'm 28. I go back and I actually, I can't remember exactly, but basically what happened was the Miami Herald was owned by Knight Rider. Yeah, it was a public company. And I became fascinated in design and architecture. And I was kind of like ready to leave a little bit more of the fashion slant behind. And I spent one year pitching this idea to do an insert. It's pre t, but it was like the New York Times style magazine. Like, I was like, take a glossy magazine and put it in your newspaper. You have built in distribution. You'll get incremental ad dollars that you won't get like all these things. So I spent a year working on spreadsheets, which of course, I had absolutely never done, but it did give me some insight into the business of magazines, which I think, you know, and I tell my team too, and I try to share a lot with them, like it's a real gift because most editors were not exposed to that. And so it taught me a lot. And I had to pitch a very conservative board for a year. And at the end of the year, we. And I wanted to be an owner of some sort. And at the end of the year they said we, we just, we just love this idea. Like we're going to do it, we're.
- [20:54]
Lauren Sherman
Going to take it.
- [20:55]
Sarah Harrelson
And if you want to do it, we can hire you to be the editor in Chief for 95,000. But you can't have any ownership. When I was like, sure, why not? And so I did it. And in doing it, I guess at that point, the Knight Ritter had a policy. For any new product, it had to make a 25% profit margin. Now, if anyone knows profit margins in the magazine industry, which I of course didn't know then that's a significant profit margin for magazine industry. But in doing that, what they did as the editor in chief is I was like given a spreadsheet and given visibility on all the ad dollars and the ratio and all of these things. And actually I was there for seven years. And in that time is when first it was called Design05 launch, which is now Design Miami, which of course I launched or will launch Cultured at home with Alexander Cunningham as my editor, who I've known since those days. And then of course, Art Basel came to Miami. So then I ended up after seven years at the Herald, which was really incredible and did teach me certainly more than I had ever been exposed to about the business of magazines and making things on no money. You know, like really having to put something together with absolutely no money. And then I was hired to be the editor in chief of Ocean Drive. And with that came the becoming the editor in chief of the Art Basel magazine. And that was about 2,000, I think seven or eight.
- [22:23]
Lauren Sherman
And who is the owner of Ocean Drive? Is it niche?
- [22:26]
Sarah Harrelson
It was niche then pre merger. Okay, yeah, pre merger.
- [22:30]
Lauren Sherman
What is Jason's last name?
- [22:31]
Sarah Harrelson
Ben.
- [22:33]
Lauren Sherman
Jason Bin. And he was one of the co founders of Du Jour. And can you. Yes. After that, can you explain what niche media is and what that world that's called? Is that custom publishing? Not really.
- [22:49]
Sarah Harrelson
It's not. I've actually done custom publishing. I saw your thing, which is actually very interesting. No, no, no. Niche media, not at all niche media.
- [22:55]
Lauren Sherman
What would you call the niche media? And there's. What's the other one? There's modern luxury. Yeah. What would you call those. Those publishers?
- [23:04]
Sarah Harrelson
Like, I mean, they're regional publishers.
- [23:06]
Lauren Sherman
Regional publishers.
- [23:07]
Sarah Harrelson
They're regional publishers. They take. They take a conglomerate of cities. And, I mean, I think maybe editorially, I never bought into the concept. I don't believe that the person who reads it in Chicago wants to read the same thing that the person in Miami reads. But Ocean Drive actually didn't start like that. And Ocean Drive in its early days was actually, I think, probably one of the greatest magazine success stories, if. If you look back and look at numbers and all of those things. But. So I was. I just worked for. For Niche, which was successful. I'd never really bought into the editorial vision of Ocean Drive. It wasn't a great fit for me. But anyway, I did it, and then that was. I mean, I kind of had a lot of friends in the art world at that time. There's lots of other. You know, like I said, the person that I'd actually moved into, his sister was a famous artist. She won the MacArthur. She also had BRE cancer, which is what my mother died of. I became close with her. I became quite intrigued by the contemporary art world at this. All this sort of time, everything kind of coming together. And I was the editor in chief of the Art Basel magazine for, I think, two or three issues and then left. I think that for the custom publishing piece. I have done custom publishing throughout my career. Um, but that's. That's very different. That's typically when someone hires you and says, I want you to do this. I mean, whether Ocean Drive or any of the niche media are editorial in a way that you And I would say is a different story. But it's not custom publishing.
- [24:38]
Lauren Sherman
Got it. Okay. So a great example for the reader would be, like, the Walmart magazine is custom publishing. Or there is.
- [24:45]
Sarah Harrelson
Yeah. Like, I actually did the magazine for Chase Sapphire for a year.
- [24:49]
Lauren Sherman
Amazing. That's very cool.
- [24:50]
Sarah Harrelson
A long time ago, but very cool.
- [24:53]
Lauren Sherman
I love. I love that. Yeah, it's. It's a really interesting. And Departures was sort of custom publishing. It was like a mix of a magazine, but because it was a joint venture with Time, I think, and at some point, Time and. And American Express. But that's. It's fascinating. And it allowed you, like, do it working at these regional places. It sounds like it allowed you to have a life outside of New York, which for a lot of people in magazines feels impossible. And you were able to do it. What was it like building your career and not being at Hearst or Conde or whatever?
- [25:35]
Sarah Harrelson
I mean, I can see it both ways. On some level, I think being in Miami is what was such an impetus for me to start my own magazine, because I felt like I was so fascinated by the world outside of Miami, you know, and if you look at the early days of. I mean, if you look at Cultured, every single issue from the one I started, the editorial content has never been about Miami. It was never a Miami magazine. So on some level, and while I, of course, I did love the city, and it was. It was a, you know, a fascinating time to live there. You know, watching a city go through a ton of growth was really interesting, especially being when I was at the Miami Herald. I remember sitting in editorial meetings and then saying, this is the only city in America where you can change the skyline. You could argue that or not, but that was like, an impactful moment for me to listen to. So, I don't know. I mean, I guess I just never. I became. At a certain point, you know, I have three kids, I became more intrigued with the art world than the media world, and I really just was focused on being in the art world. I wasn't necessarily. And I think that the formula of Conde and Hurst and the had just. It didn't kind of feel like there was enough creative, like, latitude in there for me. I've always wanted to kind of do it in a different way. Frankly, I was never kind of looking. Not that, of course, what huge success they all are, but I was never looking at those as a barometer of what I either wanted to create or it just wasn't that intrigued.
- [27:13]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. And in the end, I mean, you're talking about having built a business plan and wanting ownership and all these things. It feels very common now to have that as editors. We need to. Well, not common, but I'd say, like, looking at my career. I understand that, and I think there are a lot of people now who understand that. Okay. If you're a journalist, you also have to be interested in how this makes money, because most of it doesn't. But back then, that was very rare. So you had so much foresight, and it's obvious why you've been able to make Culture so successful. So when you left the Art Basel magazine, did you just. Did you start cultured immediately or what? What did you do during that period? And. And also, is this time when you started to become a big collector of art or. When did that.
- [28:10]
Sarah Harrelson
Obviously, I'M a big collector, I collect. I mean, I'm, I've been, you know.
- [28:15]
Lauren Sherman
Any, any art to me is a big collector. I have like two pieces.
- [28:19]
Sarah Harrelson
Well, I have to say I just, I find the art world really enriching and I find spending time with art is really enriching. And I remember actually a great mentor of mine is Mira Rubell. I don't know if you know who Mira is, but I know about their art. The Rubell art collection, Mira is, is, is just a huge force in my life. And that was also one of the great things about being Mamie. And of course her son and daughter in law are my best friends. But I was around Mira a lot. And I remember at some point Mirror, like putting her hands on me and like saying, you, you're doing good work, you have a good eye. You're never going to make any money by the artist that you're covering. Buy them. And I just, you know, as a family, we just, I kind of listened and you know, you became more intrigued. And as a journalist, I mean, the art world can be intimidating. And walking around a fair and saying, how much does that cost? And all of, all of those incredible barriers to entry in the art world were like fascinating for me to watch. You know, I didn't grow up in that world and I was so intrigued by it all. And I took her advice and just kind of, you know, I would walk up and say, how much is that? And you know, just ask the questions. Because I think as journalists that's what we're trained to ask questions. And I think sometimes in the art world, or at least at that point in the art world, you're kind of like, the energy is like, don't ask the question. I mean, and I remember Mira, who was such a huge support to me. And I would have some of my early events with people that I still do events with at the Rubell Collection with luxury brands. And Mira would walk around and pick up someone's purse and say, like, you can buy this, you can buy art, you can support an artist. And she would like. And I just, I loved so much about how she talked about art and how she talked about people about supporting the ecosystem of art. And that really led me in the early days. And she always said to me too, she said, you know, Miami, they, Miami necessarily won't support you, but other people will. And it was great. I have to say I had a lot of freedom in those early days and a lot of fun. And my main goal was really just to kind of fully understand this, you know, global ecosystem or get as close as I possibly could to understanding the global ecosystem of the art, of the art world and spending time with artists.
- [30:43]
Lauren Sherman
Okay, so I want to do a compare and contrast of art and fashion. But first let's talk about launching cultured. And what, how, how did it happened? And what, how has the sort of. I remember your, your comms team or someone started sending it to me very.
- [31:00]
Sarah Harrelson
Early because I have emails that I wrote you. I was like, we did an essay on Eileen.
- [31:03]
Lauren Sherman
Oh, yes.
- [31:04]
Sarah Harrelson
We did an essay on Britney Spears before.
- [31:07]
Lauren Sherman
Read it. Yes, totally.
- [31:10]
Sarah Harrelson
Because, like, I was like always intrigued by your byline. And you know, I always have been someone who reads all the time. So I was writing umls before we even met.
- [31:18]
Lauren Sherman
I. I remember this. It's. I mean, it's. That was probably 12, 12, 13 years ago. So long time ago. How did you decide, I'm going to do a magazine. I'm going to make it about, like, centered on the art world. At least now it's about much more than that. But what, what was the sort of impetus for it? How did you launch it? All that stuff?
- [31:40]
Sarah Harrelson
I mean, I think that's the thing is like, I did it very quietly. Like, I was just, I became. And I. And I think in retrospect, this was probably all a big mistake, but I was very focused on the content. I was just kind of like, I didn't have pr, I didn't do a press release. I just was like, no, my content will actually be better than everyone else's.
- [31:58]
Lauren Sherman
I remember once, and I'm not going to say his name, he works at a magazine that we both really love. He's the executive editor. He said to me, if you build it, they will come. And I was like, dude, that's how the Internet works.
- [32:12]
Sarah Harrelson
No, it's not how it works. No. As I said, what I did is a mistake. But just so you know, my thought process was really just like, you know, the story, the writers, the access. And I have to say that's why I have such mixed feelings about being in Miami and not being in New York is. Number one, I could afford rent, right?
- [32:28]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [32:29]
Sarah Harrelson
Number two, I didn't feel like I had this glaring pressure to like, like, I remember, I remember, like, I think Louis Vuitton, like, they reached out to, to me. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I wasn't, wasn't necessarily focused. Like I said, a lot of this is probably a mistake, but my, my guiding force in those early days wasn't like, get the advertiser. And, like, you know, it was more like, I want to get this, you know, special interview. I want to try to get this right, or I want this person to recognize it. But I wasn't. I mean, I had one salesperson when I started, I think, for the first two or three years, and I think she was 24.
- [33:03]
Lauren Sherman
Well, also, it probably gave you time doing it the way you did it, gave you time to figure out what it was. Whereas people who, like, launch hard, launch it's harder because you're just. Everybody's watching.
- [33:18]
Sarah Harrelson
Exactly. It was a lot of freedom. And then also, like. Like, you were saying how you feel that so many people now, like Mark or whoever you grew up with. Like, I feel like I've chronicled the art world in the last 15 years in a way that I've grown up with, you know, Rasheed Johnson, Derek Forger. Like, all these people, they were in my first couple. I mean, Jeannie Greenberg of Salon 94 and of Much other fame was on my first cover. And so I've known these people for so long, and I feel on some level that sometimes they feel ownership of the growth of culture because they've been involved in kind of watching it. And it grew. We, you know, we've always had immense growth, but we grew slowly. I wasn't trying to be everywhere at every point. I did have, you know, I. I think I wasn't everywhere. I couldn't be, you know, like, I. I didn't. I wasn't social. I always felt that people who made their way that way, I was kind of disinterested in. Again, probably a mistake. But anyway, I had three little kids at home. I was busy, and. And frankly, I had, you know, I had other jobs. I did other things for, you know, financial support. And. And I really was just, like, you know, focused on making a really good magazine and letting it. Letting it kind of unfold in its own time. I. I didn't put these, like, oh, my God, it has to be this by this point.
- [34:37]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. Close your eyes. Exhale. Feel your body relax, and let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts.
- [34:54]
Sarah Harrelson
Oh, my gosh, they're so fast.
- [34:56]
Lauren Sherman
And breathe.
- [34:57]
Sarah Harrelson
Oh, sorry.
- [34:58]
Lauren Sherman
I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order.
- [35:02]
Sarah Harrelson
Oh, sorry.
- [35:04]
Lauren Sherman
Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order.
- [35:08]
Sarah Harrelson
1,800Contacts.
- [35:11]
Lauren Sherman
Not all meals are created equal. For instance, breakfast has the spicy egg McMuffin for a limited time, and lunch does it.
- [35:21]
Sarah Harrelson
McDonald's breakfast.
- [35:28]
Lauren Sherman
So what year did it launch and what was the mission? Did you have a mission statement from the beginning or what? What was the mission when you launched it and how has that evolved since the launch?
- [35:39]
Sarah Harrelson
I mean, I think I did have a mission. I think I didn't articulate it. I mean, as you know, maybe now too, more people are starting magazine. But then it was like to say, I'm going to start a magazine. People would be like, why?
- [35:48]
Lauren Sherman
What. What year was it?
- [35:49]
Sarah Harrelson
2012.
- [35:50]
Lauren Sherman
2012.
- [35:51]
Sarah Harrelson
Okay. I mean, I kind of soft launch in 2011, but I say 2012, but there is an issue in 2011, but it doesn't have my logo. It was like. We just did like a. I just kind of did it. I really. I think my mission was. It was definitely mission driven. And I would say my mission probably hasn't changed. And some of that is still the excitement that I have for the creative world. How they overlap, how they intersect, covering people that other people don't necessarily know, kind of building on the faith that humans are curious and they want to read about lots of different things. And good storytelling always has a way. And I've always been really intrigued by, you know, the underdog story. I mean, just, you know, the people who. The. What people have gone through. And I spend a lot of time visiting young artist studios and, you know, successful artists who even had museum acquisitions and good collectors and, you know, just kind of seeing how long it takes them to kind of cross over into, you know, being known in the art world. So I think I lost your question. And my.
- [37:01]
Lauren Sherman
But it sounds like the mission hasn't really changed much. It's just gotten bigger.
- [37:07]
Sarah Harrelson
It's gotten bigger. I mean, the landscape has shifted. Right.
- [37:10]
Lauren Sherman
So how has our world changed in. In the last 13 years?
- [37:13]
Sarah Harrelson
Well, that's a hard question right now because our world's had a tough, I don't know, 16, 18 months. But I would say in the last 12, 12 years of the art world, the art world has grown. I mean, I think, you know, as Jerry Saltz eloquently says, there's just more people. Yeah, more people, you know, interested in the art world. There's more dealers. I mean, we're launching a story that I was working on this morning with my team, a global story on young dealers, as we feel that, you know, it's such an important part of the. The ecosystem is, you know, a mid sized dealer and we have 23 young dealers. And along with one of my editors, Julia Halpern, who worked at, you know, artnet and only covers the art world, there were people on there that neither of us knew. We had a system of people nominating and you know, we have, we have 23 dealers that will be launched in the next day or so. So it's just, I think it's gotten bigger. I think in really simplistic terms that's how it's, that's how it's changed. I mean there's launched a lot of really successful careers in the last decade.
- [38:14]
Lauren Sherman
Well, similar to fashion in that way that. Do you feel like it became a bigger part of pop culture that, you know, Rasheed Johnson, someone that maybe a lot of people know who that is, that wouldn't have known at the. When whoever was at that level in 2012, maybe not as many people would have heard of that person for sure.
- [38:38]
Sarah Harrelson
And it's something we talk about a lot. You know, Cindy Sherman, Rashid, Marina. Like, are these names people know? Are these names people don't know? I remember putting Marina on the COVID in like 20, I don't know, 14, and thinking, oh God, is she, is everyone going to. Is that she's so overexposed or like, you know, and then you go one step out and you realize like people.
- [38:56]
Lauren Sherman
Don'T even know who she is, you know. You're talking about Marina Abramovich, I assume. Yeah. So I, my, my mom text chain. My. Someone thinks that they were. Because, you know, she, I don't think she, she takes economy class a lot or like economy plus. I don't know if it's to feel human or what or why or just because she's like savvy and doesn't want to waste her money. Anyway, someone, one of my mom in my mom text chain was like convinced that she was on the plane and so I have to send you this photo. And so we like. I tried to find her publicist just to find out if it was her. I have no idea. But I actually messaged like a few who you definitely know art world publicists who I know. And to be like, do you. Is this her? How can I find out? Because we just like we had this big battle, but it was in this check. One of the people in my group runs a gallery. I wonder if you know her. Actually we can talk offline afterwards, but. But a lot of the people are not connected at all. And everyone did know who she was. And we like fought for We. For like a week of whether or not this person was her. And I was like, it's definitely her.
- [40:12]
Sarah Harrelson
I've seen her now.
- [40:14]
Lauren Sherman
I think it probably wasn't her.
- [40:15]
Sarah Harrelson
In the end, we're more in business class.
- [40:17]
Lauren Sherman
But yes, I'm going to send you the photo. Yeah, but. But anyway. Yes, so those. You felt like Marina was overexposed 2014, but like, she's gotten way more famous than that.
- [40:29]
Sarah Harrelson
Yeah, of course, of course. And I think too, we were kind of the first, you know, speaking of editorial mission, of covering, you know, all the disciplines together, you know, dance and fashion and art. And we covered curators in a way that other people hadn't. I mean, it's been important and remains important to me to cover a lot of people that call it mainstream media is less interested in.
- [40:52]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [40:53]
Sarah Harrelson
And that remains. So when I look at the editorial, I would say it really hasn't changed. I think lots of other things have changed. And as you say, there's just the demand to do more. And we do five digital stories a day that don't run in print.
- [41:08]
Lauren Sherman
How have you built a team? It's much easier now because so many journalists work remote. But how have you managed to build a team not being in New York? Because you were in Miami, you're in la.
- [41:21]
Sarah Harrelson
I'm. I hate remote. I am such an office being. I actually, we just opened an office in New York and I've had an.
- [41:30]
Lauren Sherman
Office in LA because when I talked to your kids at the Cultured 100 party, they were like, she basically lives in New York.
- [41:37]
Sarah Harrelson
Well, I spent more time in New York this year. And I spent more time. Yeah. No, but New York, I mean, first of all, New York has always been culture's number one market by far. Every single day since the day I launched, I've always had a bigger team in New York than I've had anywhere else. Even when I started in Miami, I've just. New York has always kind of been. I mean, it's certainly the capital of the art world and media, so I like to enforce the office. I just actually finished a few touches on it. So next week we have an. Or the week after we have an opening party for the office. And in la, I had an office for a while that shifted because of my landlord, other things. But no, I. I don't know. And I think a lot actually about being a young person starting my career and like, I can't. I honestly, I don't know that they don't have the perspective. So maybe it doesn't matter, but I just think it has to be so much harder. And I mean, and I also think in these industries, like, part of the reason you fall in love with your job or not is, like, your team. So I'm a huge proponent of in office work, 100%. Your writing, it's different. I. I think it's different. But no, I. I think in Covid was like, kind of the first test. I mean, editing a magazine and I mean, I still. I still have to kind of print pages and I see things differently when they're printed, and I don't. I love off. I love the office.
- [42:59]
Lauren Sherman
I am a thousand percent with you as someone who has. Pretty much every job I've ever had has been. I haven't had to be in the office eight hours a day. There was one job when I was managing a team that was like, much more like admini. It was much more. I was an editor. I wasn't writing as much where I did need to be there eight, you know, eight to five, or whatever it was. But most of my career, I've spent half and half. So, like.
- [43:33]
Sarah Harrelson
But you're a writer.
- [43:34]
Lauren Sherman
Yes, but what I will say is I think it's really bad when people don't go into the office. Like, I think if I lived in New York, where the Puck headquarters is, I would go into the office every single day. It might only be for two hours, but I would be there every single day. When I worked at business of fashion, and I was remote at first because we didn't have. Because I was the first employee in New York, but then we had an office probably six months into me joining full time, maybe even less. Maybe I wasn't even full time when they bought the. When they opened the office. But I would work at home in the morning, go for a lunch, go in the afternoon. And in la, I work from a shared space, you know, at least two days a week, if not three. But I just find Zoom calls do not do the same thing. And I do feel like a little bit. The thing is, the generation that was in college during COVID which is my son, they don't know any better. Like, I'm sure. And they think like, when I go to the office in New York and the young people don't come in on a Friday, which I understand. Like, I get it. If I lived there, maybe I wouldn't go in on Fridays. But I'm like, you live in this tiny box. Why would you not want to go into this nice office where there's free food and Water. And also I would mind these individuals like totally. Who you want to talk to about the story.
- [45:04]
Sarah Harrelson
And I mean, I'm just like, I always say like the amount and excess of emails and communication and text threads where one thing, I mean, I'm in, I'm like, I mean, I'm in transit. I'm running around like things that get lost. I'm like just sit and have a meeting and be together so totally. And I do. I. I wonder about this generation because I feel like I learned so much in the office just by watching people. Like, like watching how people conducted themselves, watching how people spoke to each other. Like all of it was fascinating to me.
- [45:36]
Lauren Sherman
Totally. I remember once going to New York after I moved to LA and having coffee with one of the younger writers at BoF and she was like, how do you find sources? And I was like, oh my God. You've never been in an office with someone and heard them pick up the phone so you don't know how to talk to people. You haven't learned any of that. I never asked anyone how do I find sources. I saw these guys and some women, but I worked at a business magazine, so it was boys club. But on the phone bugging people. And that's what you do. And that I agree. It's such a. I talked to a CEO once who had designed it's vertically integrated company, designed their office for happy accidents. So like the engineer would accidentally meet with the designer and this person was like, none of them want to come in. And it's just like, oh, but what about when a company is struggling, they're doing layoffs and the people, the leadership are like, who should we keep? And if they don't know your face that you're not. It's just all these things. Anyway, this is another podcast, but I.
- [46:49]
Sarah Harrelson
Understand this in the next year.
- [46:52]
Lauren Sherman
I can't wait. So explain to me from your perspective because I'm fascinated with the art world for many reasons. A it has a lot of amazing characters, for sure. There's tons of money. It's a very particular thing. It reminds me of fashion in that your taste is very exposed. So it makes you very vulnerable. And people are very intimidated by it because I love saying you can hide your taste in music, you can hide your taste in movies, you can hide your taste in. But you can't hide your taste in clothes cause you're putting them on. And art is similar. Go into someone's house and you see their art and you're like, oh, I know who you are now. That, to me is a similarity, but then there are all these differences, especially the pricing stuff, because fashion is. The pricing of fashion is a construct and we all know it. But there are material goods that do go into the pricing. There is a pricing architecture. And you could, like Hermes says, they don't price based on marketing. You could say that it's based on the cost of raw goods and, and demand and all that. But art is like, it's. The pricing is. Is so different to me, so.
- [48:13]
Sarah Harrelson
But it's much more dramatic than you think, though.
- [48:16]
Lauren Sherman
Tell me about, like what. How the art world and the fashion world are similar and how they're different.
- [48:22]
Sarah Harrelson
I mean, I think they're. They're similar at, you know, they connect people with passion, right? They connect people who believe fundamentally in creativity in connection. I think that's why at the very tippy top, you see so much overlap. You know, if you look at the top of every fashion house, what do you see? You see, well, the creative directors, which mostly I meet through the art world. You see, you know, incredibly sophisticated collectors with incredible taste. If you look at the people who own the major fashion houses, what do you see? You see massive, massive collecting prowess. Obviously, you could argue access, which is such a big part of the art world, but, you know, you look at the collections that they've built and, you know, I've talked to dealers who sold to, you know, Pinel, and I said, oh, so who calls and who calls when? How does it, like, how does it work? Tell me everything. And I've had people say to me, no, no, like, they call themselves, like, yeah, not their assistant. It's not their, you know, so, you know, I think ultimately it's connected by passion. I think they each have, obviously, you know, their own greed of pretension and, you know, lots of, you know, idiosyncratic little things about them. I always think of a cast of characters that come together that make an industry interesting to me. And, yeah, I think you have both. I'm more familiar with the cast of characters in the art world, of course. And like you say, you have some of these massive collectors who, you know, have made their money in really interesting ways, which has. Which has been great to just kind of hear people's own stories and they get to a certain point of, you know, being so successful and then they turn their head to. To art and it is. It is addictive. So I think, you know, I think there's. I think there's a lot of similarities. I mean, I think there's too much talk about how they intersect. I mean, I don't, you know, I don't know. Everyone's always trying to put them together. And interestingly enough, even though, like, I'm actually not always trying to put them together. Like, people always say, oh, you're fashion and art. And it's like, not. Not really. I mean, I see them. I don't. I'm not trying to do that. I'm not trying to, like, mix or force in any way. I would say that, you know, I haven't spent as much time with creative directors as I spent with artists, and I. I would like to. And certainly the creative directors that I have spent time with are mostly through the art world, and a lot of them spend a lot of time with artists who I think do often think uniquely and give us a different perspective. I've learned a lot from collectors, people. I mean, you know, and that's the thing, too. You look at the big galleries, and, I mean, they're huge businesses.
- [50:55]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. How hard do you think it's to cover from a business perspective versus fashion? Because the thing that I'm lucky. Look, a lot of the numbers are opaque, but really, most of these companies are public companies. And so even though LVMH doesn't break down its revenue by company by brand, sometimes they reveal that information. And I also have enough reporting that I'm able to figure it out. It feels like. Is art more opaque in terms of how much money is actually being made?
- [51:34]
Sarah Harrelson
I mean, I think it's more opaque. I'm not necessarily sure that it's fully opaque, though, In. There's not many numbers that I think most of us aren't aware of. And I have to say, we. We do cover the market. When I started the magazine, I was less interested in the market. It's not. It's not the most interesting piece of the puzzle to me. You know, you talk a lot about. And I would say we started covering. When we cover fares. We started covering price points only maybe about five years ago. I was actually against it in the beginning. I really wanted to not kind of focus on the business of the art world. I wanted to focus on the other aspects of it. And I have found that when we do cover. And we do cover cost, and there are plenty of people who cover cost, but in prices. A lot of artists wrote me, you know, and I know a lot of artists talk about, like, if you go to a gallery in New York City and you ask for a price sheet, they're legally obligated to give you that price Sheet.
- [52:30]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [52:30]
Sarah Harrelson
Which a lot of artists will tell you. I don't know that if it's the same in California in terms of the law, but. So I don't know. I know what you're saying in terms of, obviously, fashion, and there's so many different data points to cover in fashion and maybe a little bit less in art, but all the auction numbers are public. I think the primary prices are pretty well known. So, I mean, I always say, and I always tell my team, and again, it's not something that we focus on so much editorially, I would say. But as a journalist or anyone covering the art market, it's important to know. I mean, I'm always asking how much is that on the primary. How much is that? Whether I just out of. Just to kind of understand. And it says a lot about, you know, demand and what a gallery sees where an artist is. And so there's a lot of points of interest that come from it. And I know some people think it's opaque. I. I just don't.
- [53:26]
Lauren Sherman
I think it's the point that you made that is clarifying something for me. So I have had to write many articles about the intersection of art and fashion over my career and have always really struggled and couldn't pinpoint why. It kind of is similar to. When I write about. I cover fashion's sort of connection to Hollywood quite a lot. Living in la, but I did it before I lived in LA because it is such a big. The two businesses are. They need each other so much. They feed off of each other, but it's hard to. And I wonder if it's a similar thing with art, because, yes, there are collaborations and there are designers, art collectors and people you go to Frieze or Art Basel or whatever. You see, everybody's dressed really well and they have an interest in the way they look. It's aesthetics, but it isn't. They are two separate worlds very much. And that is.
- [54:29]
Sarah Harrelson
I think that's the beauty. That's where the interest is to me.
- [54:33]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. And what you're doing with Cultured, now that I think about it, is like you are covering all these. And it's not just art and fashion, it's entertainment. It's all these different things through the same lens, but not trying to put them all in the same box, if that makes sense.
- [54:54]
Sarah Harrelson
No, not at all. And I think just because, you know, there are, you know, fashion designers who collect. I mean, they're basket players who collect. I mean, it doesn't mean. Do you know what I mean? I think sometimes, like, things are trying. Are meant just. They don't have to be. Doesn't have to be a forced connection.
- [55:11]
Lauren Sherman
Yes. So that brings me to your relationship with fashion brands, which I think I don't want you to give away all your trade secrets because everybody. But I. One thing I will say is you do a lot of events. You're having an event. This is it. This week. Two this week.
- [55:32]
Sarah Harrelson
Are you coming?
- [55:33]
Lauren Sherman
I'm coming to the one on Thursday. Thursday, yes. At Jason Bolden's bar. Is it with Louboutin? Yes, Christian Louboutin. And what's the other event you're doing?
- [55:46]
Sarah Harrelson
I'm doing an event with Orla Bar Brown in the Hamptons on Saturday, which is a brand also that I've worked with for probably fabulous.
- [55:52]
Lauren Sherman
Okay, so you do a lot of events.
- [55:54]
Sarah Harrelson
I do.
- [55:55]
Lauren Sherman
You do a lot of different kinds of events. Like you did this big cultured 100 event at the Guggenheim. It was amazing. You staged this big thing. Valentino was one of the list. I was on the list. Thank you for having me on the list. I was very honored. It was very. It's very cool. But you. You host a lot of different events. And I was talking to a brand person and they said, I really like working with her because she gets interesting people. There like a lot of collectors. And your network is not just the typical people. You have, like, a very diverse network of people who would come to things. But, like, how have you been able to build out that part of the business? And what do you think you do? Well, that attracts brands of such a variety as.
- [56:51]
Sarah Harrelson
Well. Well, thank you. That's. That's nice. I mean, I think on some level, and I honestly, I take it back to kind of Ocean Drive days, and doing events was a big part of what they did. And frankly, I didn't like the way they did it. And I felt that that really defined how I wanted to do it. And at some point, I felt like I work like everyone, you know, 15 hour days. I had three little kids, and I wasn't gonna ask my friends or anyone to come to anything that I didn't really feel was worth their time. And I've kind of just been led by that. People think I'm social. People think I'm out a lot, and I am because it's part of our job. But I was not a natural social person growing up or anything like that. So I think a lot about that. And actually, at the Cult 100, I invited an artist that I love named Danielle McKinney and she said, you know, I have some social anxiety, like a lot. And I said, so do I. And she laughed and she said, can I bring my husband? I said, of course. So, you know, I think like the pages of magazines, I think sometimes events get formulaic. And I was actually in a meeting the other day with an event with someone who has a big brand and they were saying, oh, well, I think people just look at magazine events to see who they invite and so they can invite the same people. And I was like, I've actually never done that. I've never like looked at what other people and been like, oh, I want them. I've tried to have like, you know, people who don't, who may not go out all the time. I mean, I just never kind of really wanted, never really understood why people are always after like the same cross section of 15 people.
- [58:29]
Lauren Sherman
Yes. Which we deal with a lot in.
- [58:30]
Sarah Harrelson
LA where we're like a lot in.
- [58:33]
Lauren Sherman
LA where I love seeing you and I love seeing all. Ali Pugh, who's on your team? One of my closest friends. But sometimes I'm like, guys, is there no one else who lives here?
- [58:46]
Sarah Harrelson
Well, I rather, I mean, I do think too that's something that I've taken a chance and whatever. Like, I rather have people that people are like, I don't know who they were. And I was actually, I went to the Terabaca Film Festival dinner last night.
- [58:57]
Lauren Sherman
And I said, oh, it looked fabulous. Who'd you sit with?
- [59:00]
Sarah Harrelson
I now, I'm not gonna remember her name, but she was a really gorgeous 40 year old woman with three kids. And she said, oh my God, I was at your Colt 100 party. She said, I never felt so old. And here you are, an older white woman and how it was just funny, but it. And she was telling me a story about how she went to college with someone in the family who owns a very big brand, who doesn't go out all the time and how they were at one of these big brand things that their family and people were like, why are you here? And I don't know, it's just back to that thing of, you know, ask, like, ask people about themselves. Like be curious about people and don't try to, you know, I don't know, I just, I'm not trying to fill the room with the same people all the time.
- [59:46]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [59:47]
Sarah Harrelson
And I like meeting people. I mean, I think of what sustains me and is doing it is meeting new people or meeting people who see it differently or meeting people who like you Know artists who don't get invited to a lot of things. I mean, which is a whole nother topic because, of course, I invite artists to everything, but sometimes, you know, just people, if they don't know who they are, people don't have an Instagram following. Like, I think sometimes decisions are made based on that, which I really try not to make decisions based on things like that.
- [60:17]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. Yeah. Two things. One is the point about having social anxiety. I feel that way, too. I am not. I'd say I am a mix. Introvert, extrovert. It depends on the time. I'm not super comfortable, like, honestly, going to a party on the weekend, like, a friend's party. I'm more. That's where I feel the most social anxiety. Because now that I have kids, that's been a kid. That has really helped lubricate it because, like, the kid. But when I go to a work event, I'm fine because I'm like, this is my. And this is. I think a lot of journalists have this, like, I don't like bothering people. All I do all day is bother people. These are things that it forces you. So, yes, I go out all the time for work. I am constantly figuring stuff out. But. And I like. But I am not. It's not that it comes natural to me. It's that it, like, the job I have has forced it to happen, which is interesting. But the other thing I was gonna say is, do you. I mean, to me, what it says is you're an incredibly hard worker. Like, all of this stuff, like, you coming up with great guest lists, that is not easy. I do some events at Puck, and it's the first time I've had to, like, come up with guest lists and things. And it's really good when the brand has an objective so you can sort of figure it out. But, like, all that stuff just has to sort of come from your brain and collaborating with your team. And that takes a lot. This stuff takes a lot of work. It's not just you showing up at these two events. Like, the stuff that had to happen to make these events work is so much on top of doing a magazine, on top of doing everything else, up top of your kids and your husband and your life and all of that. It's really. I mean, the amount of work you've put into all this is. Do you think your work ethic. Maybe we can close with this? Do you feel like your work ethic is the thing that has, like, really. Is the secret to your success one of them?
- [62:28]
Sarah Harrelson
Yeah. I do. And also I think my, like, perseverance, you know, like, I'm just like, I'll just, I, I just keep kind of forging forward. I don't. I know. And honestly, everyone says that. And I always say I hope people can say other things about me besides that I work too much and I'm so busy. But I have to say, I absolutely love work. I never, I never feel, I never feel like, oh my God, like there's, there's actually nothing. Like, I mean, I'm very, spend a lot of time with my family. I'm very lucky. My kids are all incredibly hardworking kids. I watch how they, you know, as they begin to enter the workforce, I watch how they conduct themselves. I watch how they think about things. They send me emails ahead of time and, you know, that's how I was. I had great, you know, reverence for the, for the workforce. My dad was a workaholic. My mom worked a lot. She started her own company when, you know, she was very young. And I, I wish a lot of things probably about my life, but I don't wish I worked less.
- [63:28]
Lauren Sherman
100%, Sarah, thank you. I love working. It's the best, best.
- [63:34]
Sarah Harrelson
I think if I didn't work, I would be, Watch out.
- [63:36]
Lauren Sherman
You know, it's funny, I had a seven month maternity leave, very generous from business of fashion and I loved it. You know why? Because that's a job.
- [63:49]
Sarah Harrelson
Well, when I told, when I told my kids that I was going on your podcast, the first thing they said was, she has a cute kid.
- [63:55]
Lauren Sherman
Oh, that's very sweet. They are very cute too. I mean, he is just the cutest. He is so cute. It is amazing. And I'm sure that they are just so proud of you. I think about this a lot as my kid gets older and he's starting to notice that I leave and will be like, oh, you're leaving. He's very, as they call, securely attached. So he doesn't like, freak out if either of us. My husband travels for work a bit as well and he's just, he's fine. Like, he will be like, I miss mommy or I miss daddy, but he's not like a total basket case when we leave. But I've been thinking about it a lot and the thing I keep coming back to is like, I'm gonna be a better mom when I'm here.
- [64:38]
Sarah Harrelson
Look, I think there's sacrifice, you know, I think there's sacrifice. But I think what, you know, what helped guide me was like, I think I wouldn't have been a better mother had I worked less. But I can't say that I didn't have, you know, healthy heaps of guilt. And.
- [64:56]
Lauren Sherman
Yes.
- [64:56]
Sarah Harrelson
You know, all the things. And it. And. And I wouldn't. I mean, it's. It's just hard. Like there aren't, you know, I'm sure your son's not calling you complaining yet, but soon. And there aren't things. And not that. I mean, just where they need you and you're needed somewhere else. You're either walking on stage or you're on a deadline or an advertiser needs you. And, you know, there's. There's sacrifice, and it's hard and it's humbling. And I have to say, I. I always. I always think about working moms, no matter what career they're in. And I have a really great respect for all that we do. And I don't think it's easy on anyone. I think it just hits us differently at different points. And it's affected my kids for sure. But.
- [65:41]
Lauren Sherman
For the good, too.
- [65:42]
Sarah Harrelson
Yeah, exactly.
- [65:44]
Lauren Sherman
Sarah, you're an inspiration. Thank you for being here.
- [65:47]
Sarah Harrelson
Thank you so much.
- [65:48]
Lauren Sherman
I'm so glad to know. And I'll see you later this week.
- [65:52]
Sarah Harrelson
Thank you. Let's see if I make my flight.
- [65:56]
Lauren Sherman
Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. In addition, additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman, and Bob Tabador.