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- [00:00]
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Lauren Sherman
What's up?
- [01:02]
Sunita Kumar Nair
I just bought and financed a car through Carvana in minutes.
- [01:05]
Lauren Sherman
You, the person who agonized four weeks.
- [01:08]
Sunita Kumar Nair
Over whether to paint your wall's eggshell or off white, bought and financed a car in minutes. They made it easy, transparent terms, customizable, down and monthly. Didn't even have to do any paperwork.
- [01:18]
Guest
Wow.
- [01:18]
Advertiser
Mm.
- [01:20]
Sunita Kumar Nair
Hey, have you checked out that spreadsheet I sent you for our dinner options? Finance your car with Carvana and experience total control financing Subject to credit approval. Foreign hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet and today with me on the show is Sunita Kumar Nair, author of Carolyn Bissette Kennedy A Life in fashion. We discuss CBK's influence on the designers of her era, the consumers of today, and her impact on the fashion industry at large. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the art world, and much more. If you're interested listeners of Fashion people get a discount. Just go to Puck News fashionpeople to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday everyone. I am recording this way beforehand because it's the week between Christmas and New Year's and we all need a break. I am excited to share this interview with Sunita because you all really love Carolyn Bessette Kennedy. Content. Anytime I write about her or talk about her, people are really into it. And Sunita's point of view on the legend of CBK is quite unique. She wrote this book which I implore you to check out, and it's, it's image heavy, but it's also filled with interviews with people who knew Carolyn or at least admired her greatly. Some, I'd say, to a point of obsession. And if you want to send me why you think she's become a true fashion icon. That word icon is reserved for about five people. Feel free. I, I probably will feel like you're telling me nothing new, but I don't know. It's fascinating to me how, how obsessed people are with her and how much like, energy I get from looking at her outfits. Maybe I'll include the feedback next week since we're going to be gonna try to be chill at linecheetuck News for the next couple of weeks. We'll see. I know there's gonna be some big news in the next two weeks that you're gonna throw me off. Let me have it. I love that kind of stuff. I'm happy to deal with it. And speaking of line sheet, on Boxing Day we had a very special line sheet issue where Sarah Shapiro, who's covering retail in the world of direct to consumer, all that good stuff for us small brands, she answered a few questions. Rachel Strugatz, our beauty contributor columnist, answered a few questions. And I also answered some few pressing questions. Honestly, the questions were so good this time I could have done two parts and maybe I will. Who knows? But enjoy it and I will see you on Monday when I'm going to be back with a Fun look at 2024. Sunita Kumar Nayer. Welcome to Fashion People.
- [04:51]
Lauren Sherman
Thank you, Lauren. Thank you for having me.
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Sunita Kumar Nair
What'd you have for breakfast this morning?
- [04:57]
Lauren Sherman
Oh my God.
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Sunita Kumar Nair
It's the first question we ask on the Friday show.
- [05:02]
Lauren Sherman
Oh, I love that. I had some granola with some acai and some fruits and berries. And even though it snowed here in London for the first time, I just went for the frozen acai. Why not?
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Sunita Kumar Nair
We're filming this on November 19th and it already snowed in London.
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Lauren Sherman
Crazy Yeah, it's like snow and rain, which my son observed. It was really unfair because it wasn't settling, but, you know, what are you gonna do? It snowed, so.
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Sunita Kumar Nair
Yeah, it doesn't snow much there anymore.
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Lauren Sherman
It doesn't. I mean, it never really did, but when it used to, it would never be New York level of snowing, but yeah, you'd get one or two good solid days of snow. But that seems to be whittled down with the rain, sadly. So. Sleeting.
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Sunita Kumar Nair
Yeah. You know, I lived in the UK for two years after college and then also worked mostly for British people or UK. I worked for a UK company for, you know, basically 10 years. And so I've spent a lot of time there. I really. The thing I like most about London is the weather, I have to say.
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Lauren Sherman
Oh, really? I think you're the first person I've met who's ever said that.
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Sunita Kumar Nair
It's really temperate. Like, it doesn't get that. I guess in the summer now it gets. Gets super hot. The first summer I lived there and the company I worked for did not have air conditioning and it did get to be, I don't, 90 degrees, which I guess is like 27 or 30. 31.
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Lauren Sherman
Yeah, that's hot.
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Sunita Kumar Nair
And it was, I was like, people are inside. The fact that Europeans don't have air conditions just so nice to an American. But, and, and being on the sub, on the underground and not having air conditioning, that type of thing. But generally the weather in the summer is just beautiful. The fall is beautiful. It, it doesn't. The, the funny thing is I bought Wellington boots or galoshes or whatever when I moved there. And they were also very trendy then. It was when I think Hunter had been acquired by Someone. This is 2004 for 2005. And so I bought boots. And the thing is, like, it rains for a minute. It doesn't torrential downpour in the same way that it does in London. I mean, in New York. And I don't know, I just, I, I don't mind. I like really mild weather where you can pretty much always wear a jacket. But also it doesn't get so cold that you can't move or go outside. So.
- [07:39]
Lauren Sherman
I agree, I agree. It, it, it, it has its moments of very. I think after being in New York for so long, I, I do brace myself when it's the winters, but I do love the heat. Heat. But you're right. Summers here in England, when it's green pastures and, and Wimbledon and that kind of feeling, it's Just. But yeah, it's. It's really beautiful. So how long were you in London for? I.
- [08:05]
Sunita Kumar Nair
For about two years after college. And then when I worked for a business of fashion, I used to go all the time. And I spent like, I think once I did like a three and a half month stint. And yeah, I liked it a lot when. The older I get, the more I like it. When I was young, it was harder. I think it's like a very. It was a very transient city at that time. And I'd make friends and then they would move away. And I think for Americans. I'm curious to hear about your experience in New York for Americans, like, I think you need to live there for five years for it to really kind of take over, and then you never want to leave. But I didn't last. And I remember friends of mine who moved back, who were like bankers, they moved back to the US and they said, oh, the Whole Foods Indian buffet is only $8 for dinner. And I was spending like my entire salary at Fresh and Wild at lunch, buying, like, salad and what are those Bop. The. The. The, like, scone things. It. And they were.
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Lauren Sherman
It.
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Sunita Kumar Nair
It would be like £25 or whatever. And yeah, I just remember my friend Adam being like that. Whole Foods Indian buffet. I could eat here every single night and it's only $8. But the rent is much cheaper. Like renting an apartment, a flat or whatever I feel like was cheaper. The actual rent was cheaper, but everything else was at that time in that era, much more expensive. But now when I go back, I'm like, oh, it's actually. And I have a kid. It's such a great place to raise kids.
- [09:49]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, it is, actually. And that was one of the reasons I came back for sure, because it was. Yeah.
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Sunita Kumar Nair
So how did you end up in New York?
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Lauren Sherman
So I ended up in New York. I married an American legitimately. I do remember being asked that on a shoot, like, oh, for real? And I was like, yeah, yeah, like, I did. But, yeah, I moved to New York and I had done a bunch of kind of work experience and then a full fashion assistant stint at Sunday Times Style. And I just moved to New York because it was the obvious place to continue, you know, my fashion career. And I think just as you're saying you were acclimatizing to London life, I was acclimatizing to New York life. And it. Yeah, it definitely took me a few years to, like, feel like I belong there for sure, because I was just being very British and very polite about everything. And then I realized that actually if you want to survive, you just got to get there and get a bit. Get a bit gritty and dirty sometimes, you know, so. And. And then once. Once you get it, it's just. Yeah, it's home. It becomes home very quickly, you know.
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Sunita Kumar Nair
Yeah. New York is very addictive.
- [11:10]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, it is. But I do remember being like, shaken the first time a cab driver like, you know, kind of shouted at me and, and kind of semi swore and I was just like, oh, I can't believe, you know, like, really. Because, you know, English people just don't do that. And it's just very internalized and. And, you know. Yeah, it's so different with. Yeah. Living in New York particularly. And I think with Americans, you know, they say what they say and they mean what they mean, and it's actually very healthy, I think, to be like that.
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Sunita Kumar Nair
People always say that New Yorkers are kind but not nice.
- [11:50]
Lauren Sherman
Oh, I like.
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Sunita Kumar Nair
Yeah. Which I think is true.
- [11:53]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, I think it's very true. Yeah. And it was a very formative time for me and I still. My friends from New York and actually I have a few friends who are big fans of Puck News, Paris being one. And. Yeah. So it's, you know, you still come back and it feels the same, which is great. It doesn't matter how long left. They're kind of friends for life.
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Sunita Kumar Nair
So.
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Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
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Sunita Kumar Nair
So you were at sundaytime Style in London and you moved to New York. What did you end up doing? What did you become?
- [12:32]
Lauren Sherman
So I was a fashion assistant. I started off actually at Dazed and Confused and was sitting next to Jefferson Hack for a. For a brief time thinking that I wanted to write, but then realizing that the Fashion Cupboard was way more interesting. We called it the Cupboard. Then Katie grand was there and Rankin, and that was just really an explosive creative time. And then I think after a stint there, I went to Wallpaper when Tyler Brulee was leading it. And it was such crazy spectrum ends because like Dazed and Confused, we as interns were like fighting over travel card to return things on the subway. And then like Wallpaper was run by time and we were doing appointments in like chauffeured cars. It was just completely different.
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Guest
Yeah.
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Lauren Sherman
And. But still invaluable experience from both magazines because, you know, I think at that time what Jefferson and Tyler were doing was so different. And. And then from there I went to Sunday Times Style and Isabella Blow was the fashion director at the time. Amazing.
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Sunita Kumar Nair
Wow, what three work experiences like that. That is incredible.
- [13:55]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. So Sunday Times Style was A permanent freelance gig. And, yeah, you don't realize you're working with genius until you're much older, you know, And I do remember seeing the documentary about Izzy and. And. And Lee McQueen and. And just being like, wow. Like, I remember. I remember that relationship. I remember how kind of tumultuous it was and how incredibly creative it was. And, yeah, you kind of look back and you're, like, so young and didn't really take. Take that in. But it was a great rite of passage because obviously you come to New York with this bank of experience and not much pay, but, you know, New York, it's just that it was just the place to do fashion. And I was just incredibly lucky. I worked with, like, Patti Wilson and Carl Templer, and, you know, they were working with Steven Meisel and doing Italian and Japanese Vogue. So, I mean, it was all dreamworthy. And then from there was my time at W magazine and working with the fashion director there, and then it was just, you know, working on their editorial and also the advertising that some of the stylists would work on, like, for campaigns for Louis Vuitton and Marc Jacobs. So it was an incredible transition, and I was just really lucky to always be working with creative people who just really pushed it as far as they could go all the time and required that and demanded that from their teams, you know, from their respective teams. It was a good learning process. Definitely.
- [15:45]
Sunita Kumar Nair
What era were you at W and what was. What was it like there? It was a magazine that I really admired growing up, and. But it was always. Because they didn't have an editor in chief, it always felt a little bit nebula. Like, who is actually the person? Like, Bridget Foley would write a note, I think, but, like, she didn't feel like the editor in chief. And you didn't really know who was sort of running it.
- [16:10]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
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Sunita Kumar Nair
Until stuff came out.
- [16:13]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. I mean, it was kind of nice that it was like that. I mean, you know, Dennis Friedman would be running the creative side, so it's kind of like sort of like early 2000s, like 2003 onwards. And Bridget would. Would be running, you know, the features, and then there would be a stage, and of course there was the crossover with wwd. So we were always kind of. Our desks were always situated with the WWD crowd. So there were, like, two editors from W and then two editors from wwd. So it was really. It was a really good way to do fashion because me coming from a newspaper background with Sunday Times style, of course I did magazines before that. But to be able to sit with the crossover was just. I think it was an unusual setup and it was just very grounding, I think, for both sides because W could get really high, high crazy fashion and WWD would be very intense on the trading and the business side of the industry, you know, so it was. You were always mindful of each other and knowing that W didn't run without the business side of it and vice versa. Right. You need the creative. You need those beautiful images to generate the advertising and. And the commerce side. So, yeah, it was a good way to learn.
- [17:44]
Sunita Kumar Nair
Was Fairchild owned by Conde by then or was it still owned by, like, was it. I know it was owned by. Was it owned by Disney at one point? I mean, it had a million different owners, but it wasn't.
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Lauren Sherman
It had a million.
- [17:56]
Sunita Kumar Nair
It wasn't Conde yet.
- [17:57]
Lauren Sherman
No, it wasn't Conde yet. But I think within a few years it did become part of Conde. And then W was kind of considered like the bad, naughty sister of American Vogue, you know, and it was like we. Everything was like, what? Whatever they're doing, we're not doing it. Which was. Which was really kind of fun because obviously American Vogue was considered the. The main. The. So, yeah, and I think people look to W at that time creatively, and somebody actually posted once, oh, I miss the old W. And. And I think it just always led the way to really interesting covers and features and. And then the, well, stories were just. They were just incredible. I mean, creatively, they were just extraordinary, you know, stories. And. And that was always kind of masterminded by Dennis and led by kind of his vision and his team. So, yeah, it was. It was a good time.
- [19:00]
Sunita Kumar Nair
Yeah, they should do a book about that, about the first, like 20 years of W or something like that. It was the thing. My aunt was an art director and she collected them. Like, I remember. Yeah, I remember going to her house and. Or her apartment, and that was like the one magazine that she read in the 90s and in the early 2000s too. It was a special thing that. Because there wasn't that larger than life character running it. I think sometimes people forget how influential it was, but it's a good point about Dennis. So you were there for a while. Then what did you do? And. And when did you end up heading back to the uk?
- [19:51]
Lauren Sherman
So it was actually during that time, you know, where I would be rummaging in WWD archives for. For inspiration or work, when we would be working towards, like, catwalk shows or Vuitton runways or whatever, and. And I just kind of Stumbled upon these stack of newspapers and really like the WWD archives was like a old vault. You know, you can imagine all these newspapers and, and the librarian who actually ran it, she was, she was an incredible wealth of knowledge. A little eccentric, a little on the eccentric side, like, you know, English tea, Mad Hatter tea party side.
- [20:37]
Sunita Kumar Nair
But any librarian esque person is going.
- [20:40]
Lauren Sherman
To be like, yeah, no, not to, not to, not to put, put a label on anyone. But she, she was an incredible wealth of information. And, and it was during that time that I stumbled on these pictures of, of Carolyn actually. And you know, like the first time I'd seen her was when I was at university and she just married John and she was on the front of this gossip magazine and, and I was just like, wow, like, who is that? She looks so slick and so different from anything that I had ever seen. And, and then, you know, sort of like 10 years on I stumble upon these papers and it was like, literally it was our version of Instagram scrolling like it was every single look that she had worn and it was in those society pages. And you know, I don't think I'd ever seen a kind of catalog of her looks in that way. And it just really struck me that she had this incredible definable style. Obviously I wasn't there at the time to see what her response was during her lifetime with the press and the media, but these social pages were just a chance for me to just really get absorbed into her look and realize that some of the looks I actually inadvertently kind of adopted because it was very New York. It was a very kind of easy way of dressing in separate. And it was very clean and unfussy. And of course, working in New York you come across some of her old colleagues. So she was always kind of like in my kind of backdrop in a way, but it was a very subtle way. So. So yes, so I was in New York for about 15 years and after my time at W and I became a freelance stylist, so I continued working with them on and off WWD and then, you know, other kind of advertising clients. So it, yeah, I think working in New York is always a different experience and it was completely different from working in London because the divide is at like 6 o'clock, everybody clocks off. I don't know if you remember that in your London time.
- [23:07]
Sunita Kumar Nair
Oh yeah, they all go to the pub and then they go home and go to sleep. And I was like, when do people go to exercise?
- [23:16]
Lauren Sherman
That is the exercise, lifting the pine.
- [23:18]
Sunita Kumar Nair
You know, I did work with some South Africans and they would go to exercise during the day, but.
- [23:23]
Lauren Sherman
Right.
- [23:24]
Sunita Kumar Nair
But everyone else was like, pub. You. What's exercise?
- [23:28]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, things have changed now. Yeah, A lot more body conscious. Yeah, but that, that was how it was in London. And you know, I remember being at Dazed and everybody's just sitting there and smoking and like, you know, like we got to, we got to speak to, you know, Quincy Jones and like having a night, you know, it was, it was just, it was just. And then everybody would rock off for a two hour lunch, you know. So, yeah, this was not how it was in New York. It was like you were working pretty much 247 and especially at W, where the demands were just so, you know, incredible. It was a very different experience, but very, very formative and very rewarding at the same time. So I returned back around 2018 and it was kind of around then I kind of got another Carolyn Visitation, as it were, of like speaking to a friend of mine who is the lead lecturer at Central Saint Martin's actually for womenswear design. And we were just talking about muses and Carolyn came up and she said that her students, at least one of the muses her, wants a collection. And then I guess a few months on from there, I need to research and I'm looking to see if there's an actual book on her. And there is on so many other women that we know who have incredible style, but not her. So thus the idea was Bourneth.
- [25:04]
Sunita Kumar Nair
That's so crazy that there were no books about her. Yeah, it's just, I mean, I think now and, and we can get into how, how much she sort of infiltrated Pinterest and Instagram and all these social media platforms and is just a constant on there. But thinking back, and I know it's hard. You were at university and you. I, I mean, I certainly can't remember super well from when I was that. You know, when in the mid-90s, when she was really becoming, like, how famous were they? They were really, really famous. Right. Like they. Were they Princess Diana level famous? Were they in the uk? Was she especially because of like the circles that you run in. Like, was she someone that people talked about? Like, was she someone who felt that you felt like everybody was sort of watching? And, and what was your initial impression of her as a, as a young person?
- [26:10]
Lauren Sherman
I think as a young person, my first experience was that seeing her on a gossip magazine and of course the fact that she was John Kennedy Jr. S wife is kind of like, oh, you Know, you kind of do pay attention a bit more. Oh, he's married someone. But, you know, I was talking about this with Fabian Barron, actually, and Carolyn had kind of infiltrated that world through her work at Calvin Klein, you know, because those. Those adverts of CK1 where it's a bunch of, like, young people standing. And it's actually not just young people we were discussing. It was. It was kind of a plethora of different people and diverse people all standing on this ream of film. And I remember that advert and feeling very kind of like, wow, that's so cool. Like, it's including people of all colors, ages, abilities, disabilities, and really just, you know, feeling included. It was just a really good feeling. And, you know, and so I guess, you know, Carolyn was sort of subtly present in a way without me realizing it until I did the actual research. And I was like, oh, my God. Like, she. There we go. There it is.
- [27:38]
Sunita Kumar Nair
I'm holding up the CK one. This advertisement that we're talking about. I have the postcard from when I was in 9th or 10th grade, 13, 14, 15, that I've kept all these years because it was so. I mean, the fragrance is so good, too. If I smell it, I still, like. I'm like, oh. Anyway, I just wanted to show you that. And we'll do. I'll post this on my Instagram, everyone, so everyone can see what we were talking about. But. So she was. She was working in PR there at the time. And was he. Did he say that? Like, she was hugely influential on it.
- [28:19]
Lauren Sherman
Hugely. I mean, she was hugely influential on really, really sticking with the idea of having Kate Moss for the Obsession campaign. And actually, you know, Mario Sorrenti had said that she would sit with him on the floor and look through his little light notebook with all his sketches and pictures and really talk about the kind of images that they. The new kind of breakthrough images that they wanted to produce for Calvin Klein. So. So, yeah, that was like, probably around the same time that you're talking about. I was probably in my mid teens then, but being very aware of this kind of coolness that Calvin Klein was, you know, generating for us, us young, young kids.
- [29:13]
Guest
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- [31:13]
Sunita Kumar Nair
I also think one interesting element is I think the eligible bachelor part of this and how much that was sort of hyped up in the press. I was too young to be reading the tabloids before they got married, but my assumption is it was probably very much like Prince William. I had a couple friends who went to St. Andrews and were the same year. I'm the same age as Prince William who like went there to try to marry him, which I'm sure Kate Middleton did as well. Sorry, if you're friends with them, you don't have to comment. And I think, I believe he was a freshman in 88 at Brown and it was the same thing. This is the most eligible bachelor in the world and the fact that she sort of lived up to what you would imagine the kind of woman he would marry. I mean she is so beautiful and so elegant. And especially given who his mother was, who the like, biggest fashion icon in the world. The fact that she, like, fed into all of that. I can't even imagine living in New York in the 90s and working in fashion and being around them. It must have been. I mean, I guess when you're experiencing it, it feels normal, but it. Yeah, looking back, it's like, oh, my God, the fact that, like, it's so formative in terms of, like, how we all dress and, and all of that stuff. The way she, she worked and interacted and, and reflected what was happening in fashion at the time through her clothing.
- [32:52]
Lauren Sherman
I was actually listening to Christiana Manipour because she actually went to Brown with John. She was doing a Desert island disc podcast, and she was, she was literally describing as, as you're, you know, kind of presuming what the. For all was like about him being at Brown and, you know, the, the kind of girls just trying to get his attention. And of course he played, he played the field for a really, really, really long time, you know. So, yeah, I think it was just suddenly like, oh, he's married her and, oh, it's her. And speaking to one of her very close friends, she wasn't a, you know, I guess he was right in a way. To some, she was incredibly beautiful, but she wasn't a typical beauty either. She wasn't chocolate box beauty necessarily. You know, so there was that kind of like, oh, why, why her as well? So there were some people who just absolutely, absolutely adored her. And then some people who were just like, oh, you know, like, what, what, what is that choice? You know?
- [34:01]
Sunita Kumar Nair
Well, it's interesting because they're also frozen in time. So. Yeah, I always think about, like, what would they look like if they hadn't died? And especially her because she was how old? Like 30 or 3. 33. Oh my God. Especially given like the last 20 years of how women. What they do in terms of augmentation and all of that stuff. Like, maybe she would have done nothing. But it's an interesting thing of her beauty is so pure. There's nothing. There was nothing. Sort of. There were no tweaks. I mean, maybe there were and we, we didn't know, but I don't think so.
- [34:48]
Lauren Sherman
No filters? No, you saw it. And what I thought was really incredible in speaking to her friends was like, she was actually more beautiful in person because of her character as well. So she just kind of, I think, I mean, it's very easy to eulogize, right? Especially when young people die. But it was a constant message that I got from different friends were like, she just had this presence and you could sense it. And it was probably something that John just felt very naturally attracted to that. It was just. It was the same kind of presence as his mother. And she also gave this special sort of energy or rapport, I guess, to other people when she would hang out with them, when she would be with them, she would give them this sense of. Of importance and kind of hone in on them, which I thought was just a really interesting comparison between the two, you know, and a gift, essentially, when you're dealing with people to be able to connect in that way, it's just seems very genuine to me and probably quite unusual.
- [36:08]
Sunita Kumar Nair
I wonder also if their shared interest in fashion. I wonder if that's one of the reasons he was drawn to her. Like, that is a very particular quality or. Or thing. Like, my husband, when we first started dating, he's like, oh, I don't know anything about fashion. I'm not interested. And I go to his mom's house and she's like, do you want this vintage Marc Jacobs dress that I just got at the, like, secondhand store around the corner? Also, she has like, literally every vogue from. For 30 years or something like that. He was just in Chicago for his college reunion. Brings me back three pristine Vogues from 99 and 2000. I'm like, yeah, you don't know anything about fashion. You're not interested. It just is like this thing. And it. It does because it is in the U.S. like, more of a pursuit and less of a way of life as it is in other places. I wonder if that is part of. Because it is amazing that he married like one of the few. Probably one of. Yes. And one of 10 people who could be considered an icon in a style icon. And his mother is like, the ultimate. So there must be something there.
- [37:25]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, I mean, I think. I'm sure. I mean, from what I understand, she always had that cool girl energy. And when I was speaking to her colleagues and very close friends, it was always. She was. Even before John, she was just a standout. She was just a natural standout. She just had this way and this sense of self about her. And, you know, even Calvin Klein spotted it. And there's pictures of him kind of bringing her into his inner circle because she was that kind of news material. And she did have this quality that was just very inspiring. And it must have been something that John had also picked up on. I can only conclude that it was. I mean, there's this quote in the book that. That Sasha, one of his very, very close friends had said that he'd taken Sasha to a party. And Sasha didn't know Carolyn at the time, but actually spied her across the room and was like. And described Carolyn as just standing there in her own kind of presence, very coolly, like she was just in her own space, but owning that space car. And she thought to herself, oh, that's the kind of girl that John would like. And then as soon as she thought that, she was like, oh, he's brought me here for me to see her. Like, you know, it was just his way of showing it. And that to me is just very indicative of that. Let's call it star quality or that's something that Carolyn just had.
- [39:08]
Sunita Kumar Nair
Yeah, there's something about people with really incredible and innate personal style that it also often, not always, but often says something about the person's character. And the interesting thing about your book is it's divided into sort of fashion ideas. But you did a lot of in depth interviews with people who knew her, people in the industry. How did you organize the book? And also how did you decide who you were going to spend? You mentioned Fabian Baron, but there are multiple interviews. And so it is sort of a bigger book that you could put on your proverbial coffee table, but it also has just like a lot of depth to it. Sort of like her where she was, she was all a lot about the fashion, but it was just so much more than that.
- [39:59]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, I mean, I think because she worked in the fashion industry, she was part of that world. And let's remember back then, that world at that level was incredibly tight and very closed. It was. It was almost kind of Vatican like, you know, and everybody worked together, they hung out together, they partied together. You know, Kate Moss was in the same building as her designers, shared the same building. I think there was just this constant flow of everybody's lives being entwined. And so it was important for me to record Carolyn's life during that time. And friends would say over and over again that she did love the industry in that way. A lot of her very close inner friends were from that world. But I did also like what George, one of her close friends, said, had said, was that she was also really a people's person and she was there for the seamstress and she was there for the driver and the messenger and giving him a coffee. And there was a very kind of lovely kind of arbitrariness about her as well as obviously hanging out with the fashionistas, if we want to call them that. But when I was dividing the book, I wanted to draw on that world, her world, speak to as many people who had obviously worked with her or who were her friends. But then I was really interested in, you know, what. What is Carolyn to our creatives today and what do they mean to her? And. And I also spoke to one or two people who didn't actually. Who had to actually look her up, but are leading creatives, like Jamie Hawkesworth. You know, he does a lot of the photography for the row. And the row is just, again, very symbolic of kind of Carolyn's aesthetic. And even when you look at the photography, there's. There's so much that kind of reminds you of. Of that time that's very Mark Borthwick, but not, you know. And so it was so interesting to. To talk to him about it, because I think that's real news material. When someone infiltrates your work and you're not even aware of it, you know, that you're almost. It's. It's like that Calvin Klein advert we were talking about, that the energy or the presence or the coolness of Carolyn was within those pictures, because that's what Calvin Klein was. And I think that's. That's the power of our industry in a way. You know, in the way that it can infiltrate so many different arenas of life. But, yeah, in answer to your question, reaching out to all these different people was just. It just created a different perspective for each. It's kind of like looking. Now we are just looking at pictures of Carolyn. It's kind of looking at a painting and asking different people what she means to them.
- [43:18]
Sunita Kumar Nair
Yeah, it makes for a much richer experience than perhaps you might expect from a book that's bigger than a typical book. So it's really. I mean, clearly. How long did it take you? It must have been so much work.
- [43:37]
Lauren Sherman
It took a while. I mean, to be honest, I was gonna start it, so. But kind of word got around, and when I was just reaching out to people, it was just a firm. Yes. I think it was just a very nice fashion family feeling. People wanted to speak up about her and speak about how she's still on their mood boards and why, and even if they didn't know her, as you said, her character is kind of. All. Her Persona is within her clothes. And I think people. People pick up on that because there's some kind of authenticity there. And she was very groundbreaking at that time. I don't think people really realized it. But you know, she should have been wearing Chanel and Dior and wearing those signature fabric and hardware pieces, but she was trotting around in Yoji, you know, and, and that too looks that just couldn't be defined. Even to this day, with the research and the access I've had to speaking to the design houses, people still could not definitively say that certain looks were theirs.
- [44:48]
Sunita Kumar Nair
Oh, wow.
- [44:49]
Lauren Sherman
And that to me is just, I just love that because she's just like, yeah, good luck guys.
- [44:54]
Sunita Kumar Nair
Yeah. And it's like again, goes back to her style was so real and personal that it was about her, not the clothes.
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- [46:11]
Sunita Kumar Nair
I would love to talk a bit about Yoji. And also she was obviously a very big Prada fan and wore, I think Prada shoes exclusively. I've been searching for a pair of sandals that she wore for the last like three years. And every once in a while they come up on one of these resale sites and I am scramble and then I don't get them. Oh no. But I mean they're just too perfect. But I think that Prada should reissue them. They're. They're great sheep, but anyway, maybe they're.
- [46:44]
Lauren Sherman
Listening to you, Lauren. Yes, maybe they'll.
- [46:46]
Sunita Kumar Nair
I'll. I'll tell them.
- [46:47]
Lauren Sherman
You need to. You need to post that on your Instagram because shoes I want yes, they actually reissued her bag, so.
- [46:54]
Sunita Kumar Nair
Wow. Interesting.
- [46:55]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. So that bag that she wore when she did actually come out as the new Mrs. Kennedy was reissued. I mean, they never called it the Carolyn or they never gave her that. That kind of name, I guess, or label. But, yeah, they did reissue it. So maybe there's hope for your shoe.
- [47:15]
Sunita Kumar Nair
Maybe someday. That's the great thing about secondhand shopping online. Everything comes up at some point. So what did you find in terms of how she chose pieces? Because Yoji, in particular, like, the Japanese became really big in the 80s, and there was like. That's when they really came to the US and there was a groundswell of interest, and that's when people started collecting it. But this is, you know, 15, 20 years later, where minimalism was in style and people were in Calvin and Helmut Lang and Prada. But it's still. I. And I'm sure there were a lot of people who were wearing the Japanese because it was still sort of influenced by that earlier time. But my assumption is that, like you said, most of her counterparts were not wearing it. What do you know about how she, like, worked with designers and chose clothing and all of that?
- [48:12]
Lauren Sherman
I mean, so from her Calvin Klein days, obviously, she. She did kind of everybody was compelled to wear the designer's clothes. You know, it didn't have to be, you know, full looks, but it was definitely. If you bought a suit in the sample sale, as one of the friends said, you were expected to wear it.
- [48:33]
Sunita Kumar Nair
Yeah.
- [48:34]
Lauren Sherman
So in those days, you were very much advertising who you were working for. So that was. I think even Donna Karen said to me, oh, you know, because they shared the same building, Donna Karen and Calvin Klein, when the employees would go into the elevator, you would know exactly who was working for who. So there was that time where I think you were representing and you were wearing. I was curious about how she decided to go with Yoji. And my understanding was that Yoji was very much part of some of the design team at Calvin Klein. Some of them were wearing comm. And Yoji. And as. As you've said, it was very in. In the 80s. There's actually a brilliant book by Nicholas Coleridge, I don't know if you've ever read it, called the Fashion Conspiracy.
- [49:27]
Sunita Kumar Nair
Oh, no.
- [49:29]
Lauren Sherman
And it's. It's really interesting. It's. He's. I mean, he's very detailed about the landscape of 80s fashion, and he details Donna Karan and Ralph Laurence and Calvin Klein's kind of ascension into. Into the industry. But he also has a few chapters on how the Japanese kind of, you know, shake things up and disrupt that landscape. And he's very accurate, I think, on the facts, but he's completely jaded and cynical about the fashion industry. So it's always with this very deprecating tone.
- [50:09]
Sunita Kumar Nair
Just ordered it of our crowd.
- [50:13]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, well, I think you should do a show on that, for sure. I mean, honestly, you should actually get him on. But he, you know, it was quite funny because he's quite a character. I think he. He was kind of like editorial director or something of Conde Nast uk.
- [50:29]
Sunita Kumar Nair
I knew I knew him at one of my jobs. I don't know how I've, like, either emailed him with him or talked to him about something, but I can't remember which job.
- [50:40]
Lauren Sherman
I think he's been ahead for a very long time. And I actually remember bumping into him a few times in elevators. But reading this book was really, really interesting because he quotes Ray from Comme des Garcon, who's saying, you know, that she's been told in order for her label in the 80s to do well, that her collection is too concentrated and focused and then she has to get more variety. And she says, I can't, I mustn't. It's not my way. So that's her kind of fighting the commercialism. That's kind of demanding because these Japanese designers were so in demand. And anyway, Nicholas is talking about all the fashion lot at a lunch wearing. Half of them were wearing Japanese designers. And he was talking about how they look like their sexuality had been depraved and they dressed like nuns. And, you know, there's this thing that, you know, Japanese. Japanese designers took that away from women. But I think when you look at Carolyn, there was. I think she just oozed, you know, this kind of allure and feminism. And I think when I spoke to her sales assistant who worked with her, she just absolutely, genuinely loved the designs, the ethics of the designer. She was never showing too much of her skin. She felt safe and protected by him. And, you know, one of her very, very close friends said there was this rumor, and it was bandied around for about 25 years, that she was kind of forced to wear Yohji Yamamoto because it was. He wasn't a designer who was in conflict with George magazine at the time, which was John Kennedy Jr. S magazine scene that he was running. So the story was that Carolyn just picked Yoji because he was a non advertiser, but that just wasn't the case. She just truly, truly loved his designs and she understood how to drape it. She understood the complex construction of each of his garments. And it was her go to for galas. For most of the galas, she's pretty much wearing Yoji. And yes, Prada. I mean, Prada coats were. Again, I think she would find a kind of relationship with certain brands and that would be her go to. From. From our research. And. And she loved Prada coats. And every single one of the coats that she had had were really unique and very distinctive and telling. Like there was a little story about each one. It felt. Felt when she was wearing it. So, yeah, she. She definitely understood certain designers and what their blueprint was. And, And, And I think because there was that understanding and trust, it just. It just showed in the pictures.
- [53:49]
Sunita Kumar Nair
It's remarkable that all these years later and we are so inundated with imagery and constantly. And I feel like I'm just numbing to images of fashion and clothing. I was just looking through your book last night, and it still takes my breath away. And I still feel like I want to look like that. Like, every picture of her, I want to. It gives me that feeling that I had when I was 13 years old where you see someone and you think, oh, my God, I want to look like that. I want to. I want to look that comfortable in my clothing as she does. And so. Exactly right. All these years later, and your book sort of came out at the. I don't know if it was the peak because I'm still. And we've exchanged emails about this. Like, there are very few images of her, and yet every single one, I'm fed them constantly on social media. I'm like, they're just. And I don't follow any of the fan accounts. I don't. But she has become one of the canon of quote, unquote style icons. How did that happen? I'm assuming, like, her, you know, premature death is probably part of it, and she's sort of. They're frozen in time, so it's easy to like, mythologize them. But also, what do you think in this era right now has given way to her becoming like, for a new generation and many new generations of people, like an idol. Because when we were growing up, Jackie Kennedy was sort of that person who you would look back on and Jane Burton and Francois Hardy and there were a few others that I remember looking at a lot. But. But she is now that to so many people. And you look at the row. I mean, whether or not they have her on their mood board, I probably not But I bet when they were 16 they did.
- [55:55]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, I bet you they did. I mean, I think there is, I think it's exactly that you're, you're nailing it. I think there's a truism and there's a purity with Carolyn, the woman. And I think that she always knew who she was and that's why maybe somebody said, oh, you should, you should wear Chanel because you're Jackie's daughter in law or you should wear her jewelry or you should do this. And, and I think there was just this very knowingness of who she was. This very close friend of hers would talk about her being on the phone and really, you know, thinking it through about what do you think about this person? Have you read this book? Have you been to this art gallery? Like literally just draining him out, like really, really talking it through. And, and it's that kind of curiosity about what's on, what's now and when you know yourself, there is this inner confidence that nothing kind of shakes it. And you know, during her lifetime she got quite a bit of flack from the media of different like, oh, she's so cold, she doesn't smile, she doesn't talk, she what she wearing, you know. But I think that her constant like, no, this is me, this is what I'm wearing. You can either take it or leave. It was just a very strong message that she was relaying through her clothes and who she was. And I think in our day and age there is so much pressure to follow trends, to get the like button, to have that Instagram followers to change the outfit again so that you get the other like I think we're dictated by. And actually, you know, when I spoke to Andy Milliamista, she said that if you look at clothes today, every single brand has got their, their label on the clothing. It's no longer inside the clothing. Yeah, it's on the clothing. And, and people are walking advertisements and do we need that isn't. Aren't we we the people. The people as opposed to being the brand. And I think that is, that is essentially it. Like, I think there is this feeling of everyone wanting to almost get back to themselves or find a way to get back to themselves and especially the young generation. I mean actually my two researchers weren't even born when Carolyn was alive. You know, they're like 20 somethings, equally knowledgeable on Carolyn and hi Georgia and Mary. But yeah, it's, there is definitely a feeling of, yeah, there's a, I can only call it kind of authentic you know, there's a realism about her. And because we're still Talking about her 25 years on, that's what it is. It's not a kind of it girl phenomenon. It's something very different.
- [59:00]
Sunita Kumar Nair
Yeah. Well, Sunita, thank you for writing this book. I'm really glad you did.
- [59:07]
Lauren Sherman
Thank you.
- [59:08]
Sunita Kumar Nair
Yeah. There's something really emotional about it, and it does speak to. She represents a lot in terms of consumerism and changing ways of consumerism and. And personal style and all that. But she also was such a big part of the fashion industry, and not just the American fashion industry, but that was a very important time. A friend of mine who passed away a couple years ago always said that the 90s was sort of the peak of fashion because it was before the consolidation of the industry and before it really became an industry industry. And so the creativity was so intense and there was so many different types of fashion and different designers breaking through, and she represented quite a bit of that. And I think that gets lost in the sort of flattening of her as a character. And you really brought it to life. So congratulations on the book and all of its success. And what is your next project? Do you. Do you want to do something similar for someone else, or are you going to keep following Carolyn? What's your.
- [60:18]
Lauren Sherman
I'm going to just follow the kind of. Just the instinctual feelings that I have about certain things. Let's call it that. You know, it could be the heart, whatever. But it's definitely just a little calling, a little like, oh, maybe I should do this. So that's how Carolyn came about. So I'll just go. Go with that for the next one, I think.
- [60:42]
Sunita Kumar Nair
Well, I look forward to seeing what it is. And thank you again for taking the time. This was such a pleasure.
- [60:48]
Lauren Sherman
Oh, so nice. So nice to chat. Thanks for having me.
- [60:52]
Sunita Kumar Nair
Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive executive editor Ben Landy, and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob Tabador.