Cigarette Wishes & Charvet Dreams

Summary

Fashion People – "Cigarette Wishes & Charvet Dreams"

Host: Lauren Sherman (Puck)
Guest: Marisa Meltzer (Vanity Fair)
Date: March 31, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features Lauren Sherman catching up with writer and Vanity Fair editor Marisa Meltzer. The conversation moves breezily through the insider world of fashion, with deep dives into Charvet’s enduring allure, French pharmacy cult buys, creative director merry-go-rounds, and the “fake news” around smoking’s comeback. Expect candid and witty banter, firsthand shopping confessions, and plenty of unvarnished industry insight.

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Key Topics & Discussion Highlights

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1. Behind-the-Scenes at Vanity Fair’s Big Party

[06:59 - 09:37]

• Marisa dishes on the Vanity Fair party (“the first person I saw... was Mick Jagger, and the second was Al Pacino...it’s pretty wild.” – Marisa, 07:05).
• The "summer camp" vibes and team camaraderie: “The most fun part was feeling like we were in kind of like, LA summer camp...like, there was dancing...a 2:30 am group photo. There were In-n-Out burgers. It was truly fun.” – Marisa, 07:37.

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2. Vintage Shopping & Personal Style

[09:43 - 13:02]

• Lauren shares her Parisian fashion finds: a Yoji blazer, vintage Alaia skirt, and Yoji dress – all for surprisingly reasonable prices at a secret vintage shop.
• “This place is so good...I just—I’m not ready to say the name.” – Lauren, 11:21.
• Marisa recalls Paris shopping confessions, ordering custom Charvet shirts, and buying vintage furniture.
• Both reflect on shopping as a coping strategy amid global chaos: “We're all getting through world events in the only way we know...mine is through decorating my body and my apartment.” – Marisa, 13:38.

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3. Taste in Interiors vs Fashion

[13:55 - 18:52]

• Discussion of Nordic Knots, a modern rug brand, and how upper-middle-class “normal rich people” shop for home goods.
• Both compare their own upbringing, family tastes, and the divergence (or not) between furniture/decor preferences and fashion style.
• Marisa: “It's actually cheaper to just go to Morocco and buy some rugs in Marrakesh or whatever...” (14:11).

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4. Charvet: French Shirtmaking Icon

[20:49 - 27:35]

• A full breakdown of Marisa’s recent Vanity Fair feature on Charvet, the legendary French shirtmaker.
• Charvet’s legacy: founded in the 1830s, still owned by the Colban family, rarely profiled at length, and fiercely averse to commercialization.
• Notable details: original Charles de Gaulle shirt patterns, a working fax machine, and tales of glamorous regulars (Bernard Henri Levy, Sofia Coppola, Chloë Sevigny).
• “Charvet has been around for so long that they have, like, the original patterns from Charles de Gaulle...They still have a fax machine that I think is still in use.” – Marisa, 24:10
• The store’s unique pricing philosophy: “Of course, the stuff is not cheap, but it is still, like, priced...you can tell they’re pricing it what they think it’s supposed to be...It’s just such a special experience, and I hope that it doesn’t get screwed up.” - Lauren, 26:17
• Why Charvet refuses to change: “They’re not opening another location...not branching out into sublines or anything...I have high hopes: the more things change, the more Charvet remains the same.” – Marisa, 27:20

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5. Paris Pharmacies: The Ultimate Insider Buy

[27:35 - 28:57]

• Marisa’s advice: buy Bepanthen, a diaper cream, for chronically chapped lips and irritated skin.
• “It kind of goes on as an oil, but then like a cream and just sinks in fast...I have them in every bag I own. It’s also cheap. It’s great.” – Marisa, 28:08

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6. Creative Director Hires: Korege & the Philo Pipeline

[29:34 - 37:48]

• Lauren details the hiring of Drew Henry (Phoebe Philo’s former staffer at Celine/Burberry) to lead Korege.
• Debate about the risk/reward of hiring lesser-known but talented insiders vs seasoned big names.
• Marisa: “I think that hiring someone...big risk, big reward...is also speaks of the sort of potential that they want...I think Korege has so much— the archives, the house codes are very exciting.” (32:12)
• Both unpack the “classes” of creative director talent—Philo, Jonathan Anderson, et al.—and how brands develop (or sometimes squander) talent.
• The management challenge at huge brands: “It’s such a management job...making the right hires to do the shoes for the runway and the shoes for the stores and the...killer bag...” – Marisa, 35:52

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7. The “Smoking Comeback”

[39:39 - 45:30]

• Lauren discusses her husband Dan Fromer’s piece on the uptick in smoking at fashion parties: “There’s just been so much smoking in our lives recently. All of our friends are smoking. At every party, people are smoking...” – Lauren, 39:39.
• Marisa reflects on its cyclical “cool factor,” social semiotics, and Instagram visibility: “I don’t know that more people are smoking. I think what it is, is that people are, are more conspicuous about smoking. Like celebrities are really signaling their edginess...” – Marisa, 41:45.
• Fake vs real cigarettes at parties, and the enduring iconography (“Mary Kate Olsen’s wedding, cigarette bowls were left out. And suddenly every party since...indicates decadence.” – Marisa, 44:55).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Charvet’s timelessness:
  “The more things change in the world, the more Charvet remains the same, which I love.” – Marisa Meltzer, 27:29

• On the joy of campy fashion parties:
  “There’s no better team-building, but also...seeing celebrities in the wild...like, you know, former Fashion People guest Tish Weinstock was there, looking gorgeous.” – Marisa, 08:14

• On the unique pleasure of patient shopping:
  “It’s nice to have to wait for things...I don’t know. It’s just a really special thing.” – Lauren, 26:22

• On trend cycles and risk-taking in creative direction:
  “The reward is higher when you hire someone who’s an unknown.” – Lauren, 36:11

• On the semiotics of smoking:
  “Smoking is kind of like a temporary autonomous zone where you can talk to anyone you want. It kind of breaks down social barriers.” – Marisa, 43:27

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamps | |--------------------------------------|---------------| | Vanity Fair Party & Celeb Sightings | 06:59–09:37 | | Shopping Confessions & Vintage | 09:43–13:02 | | Taste in Interiors vs Fashion | 13:55–18:52 | | Charvet Story & Shirtmaking Legacy | 20:49–27:35 | | French Pharmacy Essentials | 27:35–28:57 | | Korege & Fashion Musical Chairs | 29:34–37:48 | | Smoking’s Symbolic Comeback | 39:39–45:30 |

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Tone & Atmosphere

Intimate, sharp, witty, and honest—with real-time friendship and deep industry knowledge on display. Both Lauren and Marisa mix insider authority with playful self-deprecation, making the episode accessible yet genuinely revealing for fashion diehards.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

This episode is a treasure for anyone interested in the real conversations driving fashion, from how investment shopping happens, to why certain Parisian brands resist modern pressures, and how social trends (like the cigarette's dark glamour) weave into the industry's social fabric. Rich in both gossip and substance, it brings Line Sheet’s off-the-record tone to life, making fashion’s power players and hidden rituals clear and relatable.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

and clear a path to your best work.

[A]

Learn [e-mail] M365 copilot. Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Pucks Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet and today with me on the show is Vanity Fair's Marissa Meltzer. We're talking K Charvet, French pharmacies, the fake news about smoking, and so much more. Happy Tuesday everyone. I hope you're having a great week. This week in Line Sheet I have a significant update on the search for the next editor of T magazine. With a lot of great little nuggets. It was. It's really fun reporting the story because it's generally a positive story about media. I'm enjoying covering it. I also share the news of the new Courage designer. It's a very interesting person and rank my 10 favorite fashion campaigns of the season. Honestly not easy to do. Most are pretty bad. Even the good ones are actually not all that good. But that's A chat for another day. Right now I am excited by all the great fashion exhibitions happening in Europe. Especially right now. There's Diora and Alaia at the Alaia foundation in Paris. I'm going to check that out this weekend. Helmet laying exhibit at Mac in Vienna. I don't think I'm going to make that and I'm extremely sad. Like my whole point of honestly moving to Paris for this time was to go to that exhibit. I don't think I'm going to have time. I'm. I want to go so badly, but I just don't know. And then the Antwerp 6 at the fashion Museum in Antwerp. I feel like I'm gonna, I can make that. Fingers crossed. And then there's the Dries Van Noten Museum is opening this month in Venice. So I don't think I'm gonna get there on this chunk of trip. But like if someone wants to go with me for like a day, call me. Or don't actually. And I hope you enjoy this catch up with Marissa. We miss her. It's almost Q2, so it's time to have Marissa back. Marissa Boutser, welcome back to Fashion People.

[B]

I'm so happy to be here again. I'm happy to be here in the context. Not that I don't love promoting myself in my book, but I'm happy to be here not on a book tour and just like free forming it. Just giving my unsolicited commentary.

[A]

I agree. Also, you've had a lot of bangers over it at vf. The new vf. Mark Guiducci, he's doing it, so I thought it would be nice to have you on. Our guest was supposed to be a Ms. Kazi. David, I don't wanna embarrass her, but she was not able to make it. But I do have one quick thing that I wanted to discuss with her because it was all over the Internet in my college group chat. Instagram brought it up and I was like, oh, I can just ask her about it and if she ends up coming on the POD at a later date, we will discuss it with her. But have you seen her thing? She wrote about it on Substack. I, I haven't read the whole book, so I don't know if it's in there. But about like men can all be considered these three superheroes and then you combine it with a sport.

[B]

No, but I, I don't doubt it. Is she talking about straight men specifically?

[A]

Well, I don't know because like the three superheroes are Spider Man, Batman And Superman, which, like, in another world could have all been gay.

[B]

Right, Right. And then what are the sports you.

[A]

You pick? Like, she's. That's the funny thing. It's like one person could be Batman in wrestling.

[B]

Ooh. Okay. What is your husband?

[A]

I had someone in mind.

[B]

What's from her?

[A]

I. I think he is Superman. And, like, a real, like, I don't know, like, being on the Internet. Being on the Internet.

[B]

I don't have any straight men in my life, so I don't think I can.

[A]

He played. He played baseball, but, like, that's too common. Like, she did very funny sports.

[B]

Okay. I think my dad would be like. My dad is easy because he is sporty. My dad would be like Batman plus surfing.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

Someone was. Someone was something plus surfing in her. Oh, the Chris Hemsworth.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Not. I mean, yeah, Chris Hemsworth actually is my father. So, yeah, very close.

[A]

I think he was maybe Superman plus. Yeah, he was Superman plus surfing.

[B]

I get that.

[A]

It's a fun game. I was really excited to chat with her and impress my college friends, but

[B]

she couldn't make it, so I'm happy to be plan B.

[A]

Well, you know, you're always plan A, and I'd have you on every week if I could.

[B]

I am going second to Cassie. David is wonderful.

[A]

We love her book Delusions. Please buy it. It's very cute. My kid, when it arrived in the mail, thought it was cake and tried to lick it. It was very cute. How was the Vanity Fair party? Did you have a good time?

[B]

Yeah, I did. It's a real. I have. I'm like you, you know, not to make my life sound too glamorous, but, like, we've both been in rooms with a lot of famous people before, but this was, like, nothing, you know, the first person I saw, I think was Mick Jagger, and the second was Al Pacino. And then, you know, it's just everywhere you look. It's pretty. It's pretty wild.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

Yeah, it's so fun.

[B]

It's.

[A]

You looked amazing, and I love the sort of. I'll take photos of you from it. It looked like you all. The team had a really good time, too. It looked really fun.

[B]

I don't like to be heartwarming ever, because I have a dark heart. But, like, the most fun part was feeling like we were in kind of like, LA summer camp. And honestly, seeing Mark have fun and, like, you know, there was, like, dancing. There was, like a 2:30am Group photo. Like, there Were in n out burgers. Like, that part. It was truly fun. The. It, like, takes the. It's like the inner summer camp part of me. But now I'm back to having, like, a dark and cold heart that just thinks about things I want to buy and books I need to read.

[A]

It's very important to have a little summer camp in you.

[B]

It was fun. Yeah. It's good.

[A]

Like, and then you can go back to not caring.

[B]

But, yeah, like, there is no.

[A]

I think it's important.

[B]

No better team building, but also just. Yeah. What? Seeing celebrities in the wild. And some people I know, like, you know, former fashion people. Guest Tish Weinstock was there, looking gorgeous.

[A]

Big fan. Yeah. I was thinking about her that, like,

[B]

I'm trying to think I need to

[A]

be around her more.

[B]

She's wonderful. And also the next day, not to brag, but she did DM me and told me my outfit and my hair looked good. So I felt great about that. Derek Blaseberg. I'm trying to think of other fashion people, guests. Derek Blasberg was there, but we didn't talk. I saw him from, like, afar.

[A]

Connor Ives was there, which is cool. And, like, a lot of people wore him, which I thought was.

[B]

I loved everyone that wore him. I'm into having a big piano shawl moment I bought and one whose price I'm not willing to share from Galleria Estrada. It's probably. I think it's like, 20s. It's like a beautiful sort of like champagne meets marigold color. I almost wore it for my Christmas party, but it was like, my way of wearing it was to sort of like, wrap it and pin it. And I was like, that's gonna last 10 minutes.

[A]

Anyway, Marissa, I have a shopping update for you and for everybody who listens.

[B]

Did you buy more shirt?

[A]

I am not gonna. No, I'm. No, I'm like, I'm really down.

[B]

Yeah, you're down. You bought a jacket of all the people. Like, I know how much those jackets cost, honey.

[A]

I really done. I'm really done. No, but what I did buy. So I went to this vintage store here that I am not going to name on here. I want to talk to you about it offline. I'm sure you've been there, but it's just too. I'm not ready to see it.

[B]

Is it in the six?

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then it's in the third, I believe.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Or the tenth.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But basically, I've been looking for a Yoji blazer.

[B]

Oh, yes, I've heard of that. Yes, I've heard of this.

[A]

And because I wanted. I want to wear with a pencil skirt. Like, it is definitely Carolyn Bisex coated, but, like, in my way.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Of course. Alone, you're a little more, like, than late 90s minimalism.

[A]

Agreed. Yes. I'm more 80s. 50s to 80s is my. My trajectory.

[B]

Anyway, 80s does 50s. They did that silhouette so well.

[A]

Exactly. Yes. So I have been looking, and very nice people online have been sending me, and just nothing seemed right. And I was like, I really wanted to be special and, like, a little more romantic than I would normally wear.

[B]

Like, a nipped waist.

[A]

I'd go to the situation. It is a nipped waist. I'll send it to you. It has a little bit. So I go to this shop. I'm like, do you have any Yoji blazers? He's like, yes, I have one. Or jackets. Because it's not really a blazer. It's perfect. And then I got a suede Alaia skirt to wear with it, and then I got a Yoji dress that, like, I don't even know where I'm gonna wear it. You're in jail. I, I. It was. It was not none of the stuff. All this stuff was, like, most of it was under 500. Oh. Like, it was really affordable, this place. That's why I don't want to say the name. And I'm not like that. I love to share. I'm very generous, but I just, like, this place is so good. And I, I just.

[B]

I think I know what you're talking about, but we can compare notes later. Yeah, I, I love that for you. I have been.

[A]

I'm so happy.

[B]

Similarly in jail, because the last time I was in Paris, not only did I buy furniture from Eva Steinitz at the flea market that I bought in late January that I believe is just hit stateside, and I just paid tariffs on. But then I also ordered, like, a bunch of custom bespoke charvet. Which you also have done.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We're both, like, picking the price.

[A]

I sound like such a psycho. I promise I have a budget and just moved.

[B]

When you move, you have to buy a lot of new stuff. You need to have a, like, a little bit of a transformation. Also, you came from la, where. No, I was just in la. Like, no one wears anything.

[A]

I wore five one sevens and a sweatshirt to work one day, and I was like. And I went to a preview of this thing that Judith Tui Tu is doing at this auction house, and I was fully embarrassed. I was like, I'm sorry. I'm so underdressed, and that's part of

[B]

it in Paris, and that's about it. Exactly.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. Like, even on the weekend, I'm, like, making an effort. So, yeah, I just had to get a couple little things. Now I'm really done.

[B]

Well, I'm excited. I'm going to be in Paris in May and can't wait to see what sort of. I'm going to go to pick up my Charvet shirts and then can't wait to see what other. I think there's going to be an Aliyah issue. There might be some Chanel going on. We don't.

[A]

We got a delight.

[B]

Once I'm full. I know that I paid off my furniture.

[A]

Yeah. We need to get you some sort of deal of something to look.

[B]

It's.

[A]

That's my whole thing. I'm like, what else can I do? Yeah.

[B]

I'm just in the. It's like, what can I do this to? Just, you know, we're all getting through world events in the only way we know. Exactly. And mine is through decorating my body in my apartment.

[A]

I need to do the apartment someday. Did you see that? Speaking of decorating things, did you see Nordic knots raised a hundred million dollars? The lead on it was imaginary. I think it's a brilliant investment. I do, too. I think it's really.

[B]

People are always recommending it to me.

[A]

It's not for you.

[B]

It's not for me. I am. I. You know, as I've told to people, and this is what. This is the kind of thing that if it sounds charming and makes sense, you'll like me, and if it sounds like not, then you will hate me. But, like, it's actually cheaper to just go to Morocco and buy some. Some rugs in Marrakesh or whatever than it is to buy, like, the actual new rug. But I understand that people want neutrals. They want to be able to buy something. They want a specific size.

[A]

Good for that. Here's the thing. For me, as a person who's never bought a rug, this is my opinion. I have looked at Nordic knots a lot, and I think if, like, if we need a rug, it's some. Actually, I. You know what? I did buy a rug for Fritz's room from stone. What's cold? Cold Cold. Something that does, like, modern, like, kind of.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I forget what it's called.

[A]

It's, like, cutesy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like a little bit.

[B]

It was a little bit five years ago, but, like, perfect for a cat.

[A]

Perfect for a kid's room. I. The thing I have spent a lot of money on is claw draught fabric for stuff. Wow. Like re. Because I really love the Raf Simmons collaboration and like they're generally we. I love their materials and things. But I think the thing about Nordic knots that's interesting is that it's for like rich people, but also for of it like normal rich people. Meaning what? What we all consider upper. Upper middle class or middle class, but everyone else in the world thinks is rich. Yes. But I think it like even if you're really. If you like modernist stuff like that's a go to. I. If we were buying rugs, I would immediately go there because we. We like mid century. We like modernist. We like. You know, I would at least consider it. And I think the pricing is really, really good.

[B]

The pricing is. The quality is high. Yeah. It's good for people that want something that's a specific color or shape or something like that. That's not how.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My mind works. But I like, I appreciate it. I actually need. I kind of want like a big sort of plain bedroom rug that like takes up most of the bedroom. And I was looking on Nordic knots, but I think I need something of slightly weirder.

[A]

Yeah, you have more. I don't want to say traditional, but maybe just like you have. You go deeper in the archives. Like I don't really look at stuff before 1930 when I'm. When I'm buying home.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know. I grew up like. Yeah, I don't. My parents didn't have like new furniture.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or at least not that I really. There was a lot of like hand me downs from like, you know, grandparents

[A]

and stuff like that. So I don't know where I got my taste in furniture. I think it was honestly just from magazines.

[B]

I mean, me too.

[A]

It definitely wasn't from my house.

[B]

We also didn't have new cars really. Or like there was always like older, you know. I don't know. I just. My mom wears antique jewelry. I don't know. I'm just kind of a. Like. Yeah, I'm an old person.

[A]

Yeah, no, you're. You're nouveau. You're not.

[B]

My art is very.

[A]

I also. I wear a lot of. I wear a lot of antique jewelry, but my rings are antique. But. But yeah, it's. It's. It's interesting to think about where people get their furniture taste because. Versus their fashion taste and whether or not their fashion taste would. Would sort of parallel it. I don't think it always does.

[B]

No, not at all.

[A]

That's.

[B]

I'm sometimes shocked. Like, I remember once going to Bobby Brown's home to interview her, and she has really specific tastes because she owns a hotel, and, like, people have seen her aesthetic, but it does not match, like, what I thought it would be. It was much more heavy and masculine, and there was, like, a room of, like, paintings of presidents and stuff like that.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

It was great, but it was not, like, the equivalent of her makeup to me.

[A]

Yeah, it's interesting. We can move on. I want to talk about your Charvet story, actually. But, yeah, it's interesting. Like, I don't wear a lot of color, but our house has a ton of color in it, so I don't know what that indicates. But I love color in the house.

[B]

Me, too.

[A]

Like, lots of. Lots of color.

[B]

I have.

[A]

I have pops, but I don't. I really only wear black.

[B]

I will never have a. I mean,

[A]

your house is gorgeous.

[B]

I will never have a wall painted anything but white. But that's also. I grew up with white walls.

[A]

Yeah, no, I agree on that, too. It's too complicated once you color. I. When I moved to New York, I painted my walls of my rental dark gray. Oh, God.

[B]

That's my idea of hell. I can't do it.

[A]

And then I. And then I made all the fixtures hot pink.

[B]

Oh, my God. That. It's gray. Pink is very 80s, actually, to me.

[A]

I'm. I'm very.

[B]

I know you are very 80s. I know you are.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know what I. I guess I'm like 1880s. I. 17. 80s. Score more with the college branded Venmo debit card and earn up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash. Got paid back with the Venmo debit card, you can instantly access your balance and spend on what you want, like game day, snacks, gear, tickets, and more. The more you do, the more cash back you can earn. Plus, there's no monthly fee or minimum balance. Sign up [e-mail] collegecard the Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank. NA Select Schools available. Venmo stash terms and exclusions apply at venmo.me stash terms max $100 cash back per month. Have you ever felt like you are living just a B or B plus life? It's so dangerous to live that. More dangerous than a B minus or a C plus life. Because when you're living a B or B plus life, you don't change it. You think it's good enough. Is it? I'M Susie Welch. I host a podcast called Becoming youg People Think. Okay, an A plus life is not available to me, but there is a way. We are all in the process of becoming ourselves. Listen to Becoming youg wherever you get your podcasts.

[A]

So, speaking of 1800s, when was Charvet founded?

[B]

Charvet, French shirt maker, was founded in the 1830s.

[A]

And tell me. So you recently did a big feature on them for Vanity Fair. There has been a lot, a lot of ink spilled. Virtual ink or I don't even know how to say it. A lot of interest, those little pixels formed on Charvet recently.

[B]

Well, mine is in ink and in print, but, you know, not to brag.

[A]

So tell me, like, as a Charvet stand, as someone who really gets it. And I just went. We were talking about. I went with Sarah de Mevolix to Charvet to. I didn't get a full custom. I got the like custom, but it doesn't take. They don't like. It's not the craziest.

[B]

Yeah, I think they got the custom. Basically you can get like there's off the rack and then there's ones where it's off. It's like the off the rack fit, but you just get it in a custom color pattern or what A custom, custom fabric. And then there's what I, you and I did, which is like custom finishings, like custom length, all that kind of stuff. And then there's fully bespoke where they're like making a pattern to your body.

[A]

Yeah. So what. How did you approach your. Since you are a Charvet expert, how did you approach covering it for Vanity Fair? And what did you learn that you didn't know before?

[B]

Well, it was, it's something I, that I'd wanted to write about them for a long time just because I shop there and I'm fascinated. They have this kind of like big, rambling, slightly like shambolic but beautiful space on Place Vendome in Paris. And in my, like, earliest moments of talking to Mark about the job here at Vanity Fair, we bonded over our love of Charvet. He wears it all the time, which I love. And he had told me that Miles Pope, who's an editor here, had like already been sort of like mentioning the story to them. So it was like months of kind of like finessing and emailing and finally, you know, them being okay with it because the Colban siblings who own Charvet are very kind of press averse and they've only, you know, they've barely really done any big profiles and so kind of what I was asking, which was really like, into the archives and to talk to them at length was not something that they were very super receptive to at first. But, you know, I have a way of like, breaking people down. And then. So then I was in Paris in January for several days and just kind of like, camped out and sat down with them for a long conversation and then just was at the store getting fitted for a shirt and also just like hanging out at the store for days. And I bought a lot of stuff and. Yeah, what did I learn? I mean, Charvet has been around for so long that they have, like, the original patterns from Charles de Gaulle. They have. They still have a fax machine that I think is still in use. They have, like, so many things that they used to make that are just sort of like chocolates and they used to make shoes and, you know, all of these things. I. I don't know. The whole thing is just fascinating. The idea of a shirt maker that's been around for, like, almost 200 years. And, you know, Glynis, who is my friend, Glynis McNichol, wonderful author, is going to Paris, I think, next week, and she has, like, a 1920s Charvet shirt that she's bringing and made an appointment to get, like, recreated.

[A]

Oh, my God, that's awesome.

[B]

I know. So it's just. I think there's. It's classic. Their shirts are classic, but they also have like, a certain idiosyncratic element. They have. I mean, I'm wearing right now, like, a silk printed scarf of which I have a few and wear all the time, even though I'm not really like a silk printed scarf person. And, you know, they have the, like, silk knit ties and belts. And they've always kind of had this, like, you know, government, upper class clientele. But then they've also always had these sort of, like, intellectual cultural types, like my ideal man, Bayashel Bernard Henri Levy, my favorite public intellectual, who is, like, known for wearing his shirts, like, buttoned to his belly button, unbuttoned to his belly button, like, gets custom ones at Charvet. I love it. You know, like. But so does Sofia Coppola. So, you know, Chloe Sevigny is, like, photographing their slippers, which are probably the most Instagram famous thing that they made.

[A]

Yeah, I'm wearing socks and one of those braided belts today.

[B]

They're so good.

[A]

It is an interesting. Yeah, it's such an. It's an. It's an interesting company because it's. Of course, the stuff is not Cheap. But it is still like, price. It's not price designer. It's priced. You can tell they're pricing it what. What they think it's supposed to be and have like a okay margin or whatever. And it's just such a special experience, and I hope that it doesn't get screwed up. Like, I think they. Everyone there so nice. It's such a. It's nice to have to wait for things like, I don't know. It's just a really special thing. So I'm glad that you got to write your, you know, the definitive. On Charvet. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I think some of their reticence makes me think that they won't change that much. I mean, they own it. You know, I'm sure they've been approached about selling. They have not. They're not opening another location. They're not, you know, branching out into, you know, like, sub lines or anything that you would sort of associate with, like, venture capital flowing in or something like that. So I don't know. I have. I have high hopes that they, you know, the more things change in the world, the more Charvet remains the same, which I love.

[A]

I agree. So one more Paris update from you. You also recently wrote an essay on the sort of talking about things staying the same. There's always newness at the Paris pharmacies, and you are sort of the foremost expert on what to buy at these things at this point. What. Can you name one thing? Because we have a couple news items to get through. Can you name one thing that you recommend everyone buy from the French pharmacy the next time they go to Paris or online If. If they trust that.

[B]

Yeah. Bon panton. It's a diaper cream, and it's the best thing I've ever used on my terminally chapped lips. It kind of goes on as an oil, but then like a cream and just sinks in fast. And I've turned so many people. A dermatologist in France got me into it, and then, yeah, I've turned so many people onto it that, you know, like, a friend of mine keeps one in every room in her house. I have them in every bag I own. It's also cheap. It's. It's. It's great. I put it on, like, in the winter when my skin is getting irritated, when I'm sick, when my nose is getting red, like on a scrape or something like that.

[A]

Sorry. I'm not laughing at you. I just got a hilarious text from my husband.

[B]

You're. You're reading text messages while I'M while I'm opining.

[A]

I was worried. No, I'm listening to you. But it's 7:01pm and we're supposed to be eating dinner and he just sent me a funny text about our life together.

[B]

Do you want to read it to the class?

[A]

Go on. Teacher style. No,

[B]

that's the one product that I recommend to everyone. It'll make your life better.

[A]

Amazing. Well, thank you for, for, for cluing us in. Okay. One thing, I wanted another. We're really French themed today with by accident.

[B]

You know what? That's great. That fits both of us.

[A]

It's true. I wanted to chat with you about. Korege has announced its new designer. It's this guy who came from. He worked for Phoebe Filo for a long time at Celine and then he worked at JW Anderson. Then he went back to Phoebe Filo and then he was under Daniel Lee, another Phoebe Filo ex employee at Burberry. And his like job was called head of Ready to Wear show. So it's like head of the clothes that they make for them for the Runway show.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

His name's Drew Henry and I'm excited because this guy, I've actually written about him before. Is he British in writing? I believe so. In writing about the Phoebe Filo business because he was there really early and ended up leaving for Burberry, blah blah, blah. But he's yet another Phoebe Philo, class of Phoebe who is being promoted. And you know, there's like the Nicola Jeskair group that all came up. Julia and De Sena and then Nicola who was at Korez. And there are a couple other ones. Charlotte Cheney was part of that too. And also Michael Ryder worked there before he worked for Phoebe at Celine. So he's part of both. And then there's like, there's all these classes of, of like the people that came out of Low with Jonathan Anderson. So it's, it's. And one Bruno who was. Who went to Lombin is now actually under Phoebe at her brand. So it's just, it's all, it's all mixed up. But anyway, I wanted to ask you like a brand like this, to me it sounds like they're going to. They hire someone like this who has a real commercial sensibility. They're going to try to make this, blow this out because it's been doing well for the last few years. It's been managed pretty well. Maybe the Nicola wanted to move on and, and they decided we're going to really like go hard on this and make it into something big. I mean, it's unproven. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't. But like, what do you, do you think, like, what do you think about this kind of approach to hiring a designer where you're kind of taking someone who hasn't done it before, which is riskier, but can like be a much bigger reward? And I guess the second question is, do you think consumers care at all at this level?

[B]

You mean about the sort of musical chairs? Yeah, I. No, I don't think they care that much until. Unless you know what they see is different in the stores. But I don't think that Kurege has enough of a sort of like vic customer base or anything to get anyone too riled up. I think instead it's just a lot of like, potential. And similarly, I think that hiring someone that sort of likes big risk, big reward is also speaks of the sort of potential that they want. I also imagine that someone that you're not poaching as like the creative director from another brand is probably a much cheaper hire than someone with more of like a bold face name. I think, you know, Korez has so much like the, the archives, the house codes they say are very exciting. You know, they, they do a great skirt suit unlike anyone else. And skirt suits are having such a big moment. I think those could go wild. I hope that it's more than just the Courrez logo on T shirts and tank tops and all of that. Although I understand.

[A]

I do like that cute little turtleneck that they did. But.

[B]

Yeah, but you know, but I guess everyone needs that, right? Like, but it could, it has a lot of potential to kind of scoop up like a Miu Miu client or something like that, or someone that wants a skirt suit but doesn't necessarily isn't, can't afford or isn't ready for Chanel or something like that. I think, you know, it was like a space age brand in the 60s. Thinking about the future and we're in a similar sort of place with technology and techno futurism. So I'd love to see, you know, the 2026 version of that. I'm excited.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. And I think that here's my takeaway from it is that look, this is all based on projects. So if they had a good feeling about him and his project was good, that's how you get these jobs. They often do these big projects. A lot of them spend a lot of money on these projects. If your project is good and you seem like a Good per your vibe with the seed. They have a great CEO. That's how you get the job. So I'm sure he had a great project. My thing that I think some of these companies need to think about and I would say LVMH is the best at this because they have this pipeline and this ecosystem where Michael Ryder wasn't ready when Phoebe left and they looked at him for Celine then. Yeah. But then he went to Ralph Lauren for seven years, got a lot more experience and then they took him back. Like that is all these people are. I mean they go in and out. But I think the point, my point being is that a lot of brands at LVMH and Kering have hired people who have had these jobs many times before. So like Pierre Paolo at Balenciaga or Louise Trotter at Bottega or Sarah Burton, Ed Givenchy and you know, there is, there are pros to that. But I would say. And the hard thing about those big, big companies like a Bottega is like a multi billion dollar business. You need a grown up with a lot of management to.

[B]

It's such a management job and it's so much about delegation.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And making the right hires to do the shoes for the Runway and the shoes for the stores and the, you know, the.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The person that could design the killer bag and you know, like that's. Yeah, that's hard.

[A]

That said. Yeah, that said, I think that like there's, there's a lot you. The reward is higher when you hire someone who's an unknown.

[B]

I agree. Yeah. And it works.

[A]

I mean it usually just works so much more clearly.

[B]

Yeah. Think about Simone at Bali or something like that. It's so exciting. Or even Phoebe Philo when she took over Chloe back in the day, you know, someone who was like a trusted number two that suddenly becomes, you know, the headliner. It's so exciting. But it doesn't always work out.

[A]

No. Or Dario Versace and. But yeah, it's a risk. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And also you have to think about are these people. Like Peter has done three different brands now and done them well. So like the idea that he could do Versace also. Yes, like absolutely. He did Dior, Calvin and Alaia. Everybody is very quick to remind me that he was not the women's wear designer at Jill Sander. Even though that was my favorite Raph era, the Jill Sander. Me too.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

I have a few pieces so good.

[B]

You should buy. There's more in Europe of the Raph. Jill Sander pieces. And they're still not. They're still pretty cheap.

[A]

Yeah. I would like a dress. I. Or a coat. I think at some point I have.

[B]

You see how this.

[A]

That's really nice.

[B]

Oh, it's.

[A]

It's so gorgeous.

[B]

I have a skirt.

[A]

That last collection.

[B]

I know I have a skirt from the last collection. I love it so much. I wore it the other day actually to work and so many people were like, wow. And I was like, last, last Jill Sander. Don't worry about it.

[A]

Oh my God. Anyway, yeah, these are all good points that all the luxury executives should definitely be listening to this podcast and, and taking our advice because we know everything that there is to know about the business.

[B]

Yeah, I know so much about money. You should always be.

[A]

But no, Siri, we shop.

[B]

I am. But yeah, I am a look. I am a consumer. I'm a journalist. I. Someone who looks at the big picture. And I've been obsessed with fashion since basically I came out of the womb. So, you know, 100%. This episode is brought to you by Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking, maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home with agents who close twice as many deals. When you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get [e-mail] own the dream. Your little one grew 3 inches overnight. Adorable. Also expensive. Sell their pint sized pieces on Depop and list them in minutes with no selling fees because somewhere a dad refuses to pay full price for the clothes his kids will outgrow tomorrow. And he's ready to buy your son's entire wardrobe right now. Consider your future growth Bird budget secured. Start selling on Depop, where taste recognizes taste. Payment processing fees and boosting fees still apply. See website for details.

[A]

Okay. Final thing has not much to do with fashion, although it is a favorite pastime at fashion people. Recently my husband Dan Fromer, who writes a newsletter called the New Consumer. You may be familiar with it if you know who Allison Roman is. You. So he recently. So he writes a lot about like food trends and restaurants and technology and just like consumer trends. He recently wrote a piece about like. There's just been so much smoking in our lives recently. All of our friends are smoking. At every party, there's people are smoking. I went to a gala the other night and people Were just smoking. They were smoking cigarettes and lighting off of the candlesticks. It was amazing.

[B]

Sexy clothes reeked.

[A]

Yeah, I'm, it was very sexy. I'm not a smoker, mostly because I'm just a geek, but also because my mom smoked growing up and it like, it's just a huge turn off.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. My father is, is like that. He grew up with a chain smoking mother.

[A]

Yeah. So like, it just is not. I don't love it, but I understand the elegance and I'm into it. So Dan did this whole piece. Like, basically the trend, we think that smoking is really cool, but like it's actually still trending downward. That what I argued to Dan was that like, if we know a lot, we are, we are in a certain cohort of people that are early adopters. So if we know a lot of people who are wearing. If we know a lot of people are wearing Bali boat shoes, right. Five years from now everybody's gonna have them or whatever. I think the same thing could be with cigarettes. But I was just curious from your perspective, like, do you feel like there is more smoking than there was five years ago or do you think it's more like people sort of, you know, what I did do when we were in Berlin and we were in a toy store and I bought fake cigarettes.

[B]

Oh, so fun. So fun.

[A]

I don't know where they went. I need to find them and take them to parties or something. Funny.

[B]

I, you know, I hope my parents don't listen to this. I have bet I am a social smoker. I did serve cigarettes at my Christmas party. There's a sort of you can smoke inside after like 12:30 kind of situation. I, I don't know that more people are smoking. I think what it is, is that people are, are more conspicuous about smoking. Like celebrities are really signaling their edginess. Like Addison Rae was sort of like when she was coming into her own as an artist, she was like smoking. I think it signals like I'm an adult. I am taking control of myself. Whether of course, whether you agree with this or not. And, and then also social media, like, you know those accounts like sigfluencers. Like there's more sort of pictures of people that are going around mood boards looking cool, smoking in like, you know, the seventies and, and whatever. And so I don't know if it's more people, but it's like you would always hear about someone like Jennifer Aniston or something like that smoke being a smoker, but you would never see photos of her Smoking or almost never really a lot of Hollywood people. And now you do see pictures of people smoking. And so I think that's part of it is just like. It's a little more like, it's less taboo to be seen smoking. I also think people realize that you can have an occasional cigarette, at least many people can, without being like, someone who's smoking a pack a day. That there is like, a big gray area. Like, and then I also think that this is this kind of like, nihilistic era where it's kind of like. I don't know. I mean, I don't. I don't necessarily condemn it all to hell. Yeah. Like, I live through a pandemic. The world is really scary. Like, I'm just coping the best I can. It's also like, in this digital way. Way to, like, be outside. It's. Smoking is kind of like a temporary autonomous zone where you can talk to anyone you want. It kind of breaks down social barriers. You know, I. I don't know. I'd be curious to actually see the numbers because I definitely do see young people, like college students vaping still, like. Like, their lives depend on it. So I would. I'm curious. But there's definitely like a. There's definitely sort of a presence of smoking. But, yeah, maybe you're right. Maybe it's like we're.

[A]

I would.

[B]

I hesitate to think me at the age of 48 is like an indicator of anything. But, like, you know, I think it was like, to me, sort of patient zero of it was that famous. I think it was like, page six blind item of Mary Kate's. Mary Kate Olsen's wedding.

[A]

Cigarette cigarettes.

[B]

Cigarette bowls were left out. And suddenly every party sins that indicates decadence and sort of, you know, leave your worries at the door. Has bowls of cigarettes again, line included on a putrid tray that you bought me, by the way.

[A]

Matches that brand. That's so good.

[B]

Yeah. And then I have matches custom made. Like, it's a fun. It's a fun party prop that, like, you don't even have to smoke to enjoy taking a photo or to bring home matches. But, yeah, I think that I'm interested in how this plays out.

[A]

Yeah, I think if. If anyone wants some data, you can go down to thenewconsumer.com and get it. But, yeah, it's interesting. I went to this dinner that Plum Sykes and Margarita from Julvia Heritage and Becky Malinsky threw during Paris Fashion Week. You were greatly missed. You would have really fit in.

[B]

I was in Australia. I was working That's. Yeah, that's better.

[A]

That's not a different. Not different better. I mean, not better different, but they gave, like, custom little gold matchboxes.

[B]

I know. I'm so jealous.

[A]

Matches. I'm so sad.

[B]

I'm really sad.

[A]

I think we can arrange it. I think we can.

[B]

Already tried dropping hints to many of the people involved, but anyway.

[A]

Okay, well, we're gonna make it happen for you. Marissa, I have to go because it's dinner time here. Okay.

[B]

How fun.

[A]

This was so great. I'm gonna see you in. I'm gonna see you in early May in New York anyway.

[B]

Yeah. And then I'll see you in, like, later May in Paris, so.

[A]

I can't wait.

[B]

Maybe we should record live from. From Paris.

[A]

Let's. Let's talk about it. IV down. All right, everyone have a go.

[B]

Cigarette now. Just kidding.

[A]

Much love.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. The show is produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, producer Maya Tribbett and director of editorial operations Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, Kelly, Turner Turner and Bob Tabador, TooGood and Company. Coffee creamers are made with farm fresh cream, real milk and contain 3 grams

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