Corporate Cosplay, Chloé’s Real Girls, and Gucci Guessing Games

Summary

Fashion People Podcast Summary Episode: Corporate Cosplay, Chloé’s Real Girls, and Gucci Guessing Games
Release Date: March 11, 2025
Host: Lauren Sherman
Guest: Tish Weinstock, Fashion Journalist and Author of "How to Be a Goth: Notes on Undead Style"

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1. Episode Introduction and Context

Lauren Sherman, the host of Fashion People, welcomes listeners to an episode focused on the concluding days of Paris Fashion Week. She introduces Tish Weinstock, a renowned fashion journalist and author, highlighting the significance of the event extending beyond a typical fashion month due to a prolonged hiatus between New York and London Fashion Weeks.

Notable Quote:

Lauren Sherman [00:38]: "Last day of Paris Fashion Week. Last day of what was actually way more than a fashion month because of that long break between New York and London."

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2. Paris Fashion Week Highlights

Lauren shares her excitement about key announcements from Paris Fashion Week, notably the confirmation of Simone Bellotti as the new creative director at Jil Sander. She expresses anticipation for a pending Gucci announcement, hoping for pleasant surprises due to Kering and Gucci's discretion in their communications.

Notable Quotes:

Lauren Sherman [02:10]: "Simone Bellotti finally was publicly confirmed at Jil Sander. I'm very happy for everybody involved."

Lauren Sherman [03:20]: "But part of me just wants to find out on Wednesday morning or Thursday morning when they announce and right from there instead of knowing ahead of time."

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3. Gucci Creative Director Speculations

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around the speculation surrounding Gucci's next creative director. Both Lauren and Tish discuss potential candidates, including Eddie and Fabio Sambernardi, analyzing their fit within the brand and the broader implications for Gucci under new leadership.

Notable Quotes:

Lauren Sherman [24:02]: "And I think most brands aren't going to pay these gigantic fees for, you know, not yet."

Tish Weinstock [31:12]: "It might be the best solution."

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4. Experiences at Recent Fashion Shows

Tish recounts her experiences attending various shows during Paris Fashion Week, including intimate moments at Tom Ford's presentation and the casting intricacies at Chloe. She emphasizes the importance of authentic casting in creating a believable and engaging runway presentation.

Notable Quotes:

Tish Weinstock [07:46]: "I really was excited to be at Heidi's show for Tom Ford. It was like standing outside the show and seeing everyone gathered there felt like quite a special moment."

Tish Weinstock [11:34]: "But no, I'm like, well, I guess I'm calling a noddle, because I'm not a noddle..."

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5. Casting and Wearability in Fashion

The discussion delves into the significance of casting in fashion shows and how it impacts brand perception. Tish highlights the trend towards more wearable and relatable fashion pieces, contrasting it with the often exaggerated and theatrical presentations of high fashion.

Notable Quotes:

Tish Weinstock [09:41]: "I think seeing more wearable items is important because we are the consumer and if, I mean, who's buying these clothes?"

Lauren Sherman [37:10]: "What does that all mean? And I think it's very fascinating."

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6. Impact of Internet and Subcultures on Fashion Creativity

Both hosts explore how the internet has transformed subcultures and creativity within the fashion industry. Tish discusses the dilution of traditional subcultures due to the vast and instantaneous access to diverse references online, leading to a blending and sometimes superficial adoption of various styles.

Notable Quotes:

Tish Weinstock [34:14]: "Subcultures, it is very hard to have these subcultures in the traditional sense."

Tish Weinstock [41:52]: "The Internet is a blessing and a curse. There's something to be said for when you have all these references at your fingertips."

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7. The Future of Creativity in Fashion

Lauren and Tish deliberate on the sustainability of creativity in fashion amidst the challenges posed by the digital age. Tish remains optimistic, suggesting that the saturation of available references will push creators to seek more obscure and innovative inspirations, thereby elevating the quality of work that stands out.

Notable Quotes:

Tish Weinstock [41:52]: "I believe maybe I'm being really optimistic here, but I'm hoping that it will drive people to find better references."

Tish Weinstock [45:03]: "I think it's hard unless you're doing something, you know, interesting, recontextualizing it in an interesting way."

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8. Personal Anecdotes and Closing

The episode concludes with personal stories from both Lauren and Tish, including Lauren's shopping experiences in Paris and anecdotes about attending shows. They also touch on work-life balance, especially related to attending fashion events while managing personal responsibilities.

Notable Quotes:

Lauren Sherman [17:02]: "I really don't like talking about my shopping because people are like, how are you doing this? You're insane."

Tish Weinstock [46:08]: "That's quite amazing. If he's like, he's... maybe he's this sort of genius, and he was just sort of messing with it."

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Concluding Thoughts

The episode of Fashion People offers an in-depth look into the dynamics of Paris Fashion Week, the intricacies of fashion show casting, and the evolving landscape of creativity influenced by the digital age. Through insightful dialogue between Lauren Sherman and Tish Weinstock, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of current trends and future directions within the multi-trillion-dollar fashion industry.

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Produced and Edited by Molly Nugent
Special Thanks to Odyssey and Puck Teams

Transcript

[Alex Asulin]

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[Lauren Sherman]

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[Tish Weinstock]

Thank you for having me. Very happy to be here.

[Lauren Sherman]

So you're still in Paris?

[Tish Weinstock]

I'm still in Paris. I'm definitely ready to go home. I was going to go home for a quick 24 hour hang with my kids, but then the World War II bomb happened. We're still suffering from that. Which was a bit of a plot twist. Yeah, I stayed in Paris, but actually was kind of magical. You know, when you quickly change all your plans and then you sort of have this weird rare moment of free time. You're like, well, how do I actually want to spend my night now?

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes. So what have you seen? What have you been going to? I know that you contribute to system. Right. So you do. And other places as well. How much are you required to do while you're here?

[Tish Weinstock]

Thankfully, I'm not required to do much. I'm sort of, I am very much participating as a fan and someone to sort of, you know, I think it's being in the room at these shows. I mean, this is a very obvious thing to say but like being in the room at these shows is a totally different experience to what to looking at it like either online or even like looking at the collection on vogue.com. yeah, it's, you know, it's a completely different experience and I loved, you know, being. It allows me to be part of the conversation when talking about what we're going to do for, like, issues and. Or even if I'm doing things with other magazines, I think it's important to understand what's happening also. You just seeing people seeing who's on the front row, seeing who is considered the it moment. Seeing. I think it's. And seeing, you know, it's the whole world and the world building. Because I think a successful brand is someone that, like, has nailed not only the clothes coming down the Runway, but the front row. And, like, who you have sat next to, who you're creating this world. And if it's convincing, then you're in then. Then it's successful in my mind. And I think. Because you want to be part of a gang, right? As a consumer, you're like, oh, I. You know, you look at, like, maybe a St. Laurent show and you're like, wow, everyone looks very cool. I want to buy something from St. Laurent to be a part of that club.

[Lauren Sherman]

For sure. I find it very valuable. I don't go to every single show, but I try to go. Yesterday I went to every single show and I was exhausted and wanted to die afterwards. But. But like, most days I go to a good amount, but not that many. Like, probably three or four. But the thing that's so valuable and it is that thing about who is there. Schiaparelli was the. Every fashion week, there's one show where I'm like, damn, I'm really glad I came. Not only because I thought the collection was nice and he's known for couture, but I thought that that was like a improvement on the ready to wear and a better idea of it. But Daniel Roseberry, not only does he have an incredible client base that comes to the shows, but also amazing looking.

[Tish Weinstock]

At the clients and sort of how they look. It's fascinating.

[Lauren Sherman]

Totally. And then also Delphine Arnault was there, and then on top of that, the entire Saks global team was there, and they were. Even the chairman of Saks, Richard Baker, was there. And so that's the kind of reporting that, yes, it was also important for me to see that the clothes are. There's an incremental change in what he's developing. But you're totally right. What have you seen this week that you've been excited about?

[Tish Weinstock]

What have I seen that I'm excited about? I really. I was excited to be at Heidi's show for. For Tom Ford. I thought that was really special. It was like standing outside the show and seeing everyone gathered there felt like quite a special moment as well, because there was Just a lot of love for Heider and everyone was like, God, I'm excited about it and hope it's gonna be amazing. And it was so small and it was intimate. And then I was just really impressed by the casting in terms of like the men, they just looked. I. It was, I thought people. It was doing something different. I think, you know, we love all the top models and seeing them, but I think, I think it felt special seeing Heider's vision come to life in the sort, you know, Edie Campbell with white hair dyed and sort of shorn on both sides. Ethan James Green dyed his hair black. Henry Kitcher, he suddenly had like peroxide, like they. It was Haida's gang. And then he changed them up and made him. Made them sort of in the image that he wanted. And I just thought that the tailoring was. I'd like to see more women in tailoring. I mean, she says not only a good suit actually, but it got me thinking about tailoring because it's. And actually I saw last night Balenciaga and it was just. For me it wasn't, you know, the sort of like the gimp, the sort of like the show. It was just a really sort of pared back show and it was like clothes for people to wear. And that's what I thought. I think seeing more wearable items because. Which I, you know, that I think that's important because we are the consumer and if, I mean, who's buying these clothes? Which I think is a question that everyone's asking at the moment.

[Lauren Sherman]

Well, no one for a while. So yeah, I think that's true. I thought Heider's show was great. I liked Balenciaga a lot. I went backstage and did the Scrum with Demna and he talked a lot about what looks normal. And I thought that's a really interesting. There are two examples of him. He did, I think it was during the LA show he mentioned in the Scrum that he had dressed up in essentially Loro Piana clothes for a holiday with his husband to see what it felt like to just be like a quote unquote rich person on a holiday. And he talked about how weird he felt. And this time he said this collection kind of came out of for Halloween last year he had a suit made, a quote unquote normal suit in the traditional way. And he felt for his Halloween costume and he felt so strange and wrong in it that he decided like he said for the last six months they'd basically been playing with what's a normal suit. To him. And he was wearing a suit backstage, which I thought was great. And I. I agree. I mean, I think a lot of people misunderstand his Balenciaga because the principles are actually close to Cristobal. And also, I mean, a lot of the work, too. But you can. The sort of more gimmicky or headline stuff is. Is what ends up getting the attention. And I thought what was so great about it was there was just. It kind of distilled. He's. He's a great designer of clothes. And the thing is vetement, that means clothes, like the brand that he founded. So I really liked it. But another show I really liked was Chloe, and you happened to walk in it. I.

[Tish Weinstock]

Yes.

[Lauren Sherman]

So. So how were you a model before you became a journalist?

[Tish Weinstock]

No, I'm like, well, I guess I'm calling a noddle, because I'm not a noddle. But I have. I'm being cosplaying as one. I've watched a few shows for friends in London, young London designers, and that's always been fun and. But why. I mean, now I'm walking for friends in Paris. But it was. I think Shamina is an amazing woman and I love her aesthetic. And when I. Weirdly, actually, when I went to the show last season, was it. I went in to get my. The fitting for all the clothes and someone came down to get me and was like, oh, are you here for the fitting? I was like, yes, I am. And so she tripped me up. We were having this chat about, like, what I'd been up to, and I was talking. I was like, oh, yeah, I've done a few shows, but, like, I think I might cancel these. And this woman was, like, staring at me. She was like. As if I'd done something wrong. Because I was being quite blase about all these shows.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Tish Weinstock]

I was like, something's not right here. Like, it's not really landing my sense of humor. And then she was like, wait, you hit fit to confirm. I was like, no, no, no. Confirmed, I'm attending. And she was like, you're in the wrong place. Because she thought, I guess I was a model going to like Ashley Brockow's floor. And I was like, oh, no. And then this season, I saw her and she. And she's one of Ashley's, on Ashley's team. And she was like, how funny is it that you are on this floor now? I was like, that's very funny.

[Lauren Sherman]

That is very funny. Ashley is the casting director, very famous casting director for those listening who don't Know her name, but I'm sure most of you do.

[Tish Weinstock]

But no, it was a real joy. It was. The other noddles was Alexa Chung and Petra Collins, and then you had sort of the girls of the moment, Loli, Mona, Lulu, and then there was some new, gorgeous new faces. So it was a real sort of blend of people. But that felt quite, like, organic, like. Yeah, it was nice. And as someone who watches shows, it is nice when you see a more interesting casting, someone that's a bit unexpected. Like at the Burberry show, seeing Richard E. Grant, I was like, wow, legend. It's special. And Mew. Mew. I mean, again, that's Ashley. But the Miu Miu casting is always really interesting. You're sort of recontextualizing people and, like, seeing clothes on real people and characters. It lends a sort of, like, realism and character to the clothes. But then for some shows, that doesn't work and you need the sort of Pier Giorgio, like, Army that he has. So it's. It's interesting. I think you need it all, really. And it's. It's about. It's about creating that atmosphere and that and that world. But, yeah, I know walking CLO was amazing, but I. I definitely. There was a moment I was like, I can't do this. This is not. I was like, maybe I should just not do this and go home. That wasn't really an option. And I was walking out and I was like, oh, my God, I've gone the wrong way. This is a nightmare. And then I realized actually it was the right way. And I just hoped that didn't really show on my face. But there was a moment when I walked down and my husband. I was in the audience with a lot of my friends, and I could hear them, like, cheering me on.

[Lauren Sherman]

Amazing.

[Tish Weinstock]

Which was very disconcerting, but amazing. It was. I felt very supported, but I just had to dissociate, otherwise I would turn and be like, hey. Which isn't really a Chloe vibe to, yeah, break the fourth wall. That's not what they wanted. But, yeah, it was very. It was. What I have to say, what I love being a part of it is like meeting everyone backstage and becoming part of someone's world and really understanding the ideas behind it and being lost in everyone's energy. It is quite an amazing experience to have. Maybe I don't need to walk, but I just want to be backstage. I did tell Shamina afterwards, I was like, maybe I should be an intern for Chloe or something so I can just come back. But I don't know how the rest of these girls do it. They're doing fittings until 1am and then getting on bikes to have really early coupons.

[Unknown]

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[Lauren Sherman]

I was sitting next to a really young model and her mom at lunch today at a. I don't know if you've been to Echo the California. It's like a, like avocado. It's Cal. I live very near Echo park in Los Angeles, so it's very silly, but I was like, I need a place where I can write and also eat avocado toast. Essentially. Yeah.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

But she was. I think they were British and the mom was definitely an ex model and the girl was probably like 17, 18 and they were looking at the Duranlantic show.

[Tish Weinstock]

Oh yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

And it was so. And I don't. I couldn't tell if she had walked in it, but she said, what are they selling? It was so funny, which I, I ended up using it in my column on Monday. But like I think that those clothes are actually, once you take out the wires and you flatten them, they're actually really appealing. And I mean you can't do bareback jeans, but there's a real appeal. But it was a funny conversation because I was thinking I should have talked to them. But I didn't want to butt in on the intimacy of the mom and the daughter eating their avocado toast together. They were so excited.

[Tish Weinstock]

You respected the, the avocado boundaries around that.

[Lauren Sherman]

But it is such an interesting business now because like there are Kristen Scott Thomas walking at MEW Mew or whatever. And people. Alexa. I saw Alexa Walkett, Simone Rocha.

[Tish Weinstock]

Alexa's been busy this season.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes. And it does add a different element to it, but it is still like, that is a career. Like, this girl was. She was out and about and doing her fittings and. Yeah, it's wild.

[Tish Weinstock]

It is interesting. And it's back to this idea of wearability, because you have. And I know obviously you're very excited about the new Jill Sander news.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, my God. Love him.

[Tish Weinstock]

When it came out, I felt like I was like, that's very. It made sense that it was on the day that I was speaking to you, because I. Someone that makes real clothes sort of like for. For real. Well, not really. Like, you know, what. What is a real person like to what Demna was saying, what is a normal person? But it's this idea of things that one could see themselves wearing, you know, every day, because, I don't know, can you wear a pair of fake tits every day? No.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Tish Weinstock]

But one enjoys the theater of it.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. Like the fake, the bouncing. The bouncing boobs were funny, but I think in some way, not to be a party pooper. But I did ask him backstage. I was like, what? We're talking about Duran, lan, everybody who showed a man with a woman. He opened the show with a woman wearing a latex shirt that looked like a muscular man. And he, I believe, closed the show with a man wearing a latex shirt with very large breasts. Jiggling, jiggling. And Jacob Gallagher just kind of went, like. Just started laughing. And what I would say is it was. I asked. I asked Duran backstage, like, what's the deal? And he said, well, I think it kind of speaks for itself. But the thing I wish I had followed up and said, but why did you lead with the man in the woman wearing the man? I know it was interesting, but I think it took away a little bit from the clothes, which are interesting. And you mentioned Simone Bellotti, who was at Bali, and I and a few other editors became like, super fans of his work there. He was sort of had been promoted to the chief designer at Bally. Kind of unexpectedly, this other guy, Ruigi, had been the designer and. And was left and they promoted Simone. And we all sort of just like, totally fell for the collections. And I went to the store in Milan several times, and there were like, all those people there buying the boat shoes that he's made. And it is exciting to see a designer who makes, you know, he's interested in art and wants to do Something. It's not conceptual. Like, it could be conceptual, but it's more about taking all these ideas about art and design and applying them to realism in a way. What do you think generally about this appointment was expected, but like all the changes that have been happening at the Houses?

[Tish Weinstock]

Well, I think it's a lot and it's kind of. It's another thing about, like, when, you know, you're at these shows and you're in the room with everyone and going to all these other sort of activations around the shows, people are still. The chat is very much like, who's going where? And people are like, oh, well, I heard this. Well, I heard this. And it's funny to sort of get involved with those conversations, but it is a bit like, oh, God, when is this gonna end? And I think I wasn't in Milan this season, but, you know, the vibe was everyone's like, oh, yeah. No one went. And it's like, well, I think you need to sort of be respectful in these fallow periods.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Tish Weinstock]

I don't know. And it's. I'm. There's a lot of sort of. Yeah, there's a lot of anticipation and rumors and it is exciting because you start to imagine people. You start to cast people in various roles and you're like, oh my God, like, wouldn't this be great if this person did that? And you know, I know that the world sort of wants Hedy at Gucci, which agree, that would be major. I think Hedy needs to be at a house. Obviously we need him. And what's actually really interesting is in London there's this like heady cult where people are really obsessed with him. And it's like young people sort of dressing up as like the heady boy or the heady girl. And there was this weird, like, heady convention, like someone posted on Instagram. You know how they did that Timothee Chalamet look alike competition. Yeah. But there was a sort of like, who is the heady boy man?

[Lauren Sherman]

And.

[Tish Weinstock]

And there was a sort of. Yeah, it was like a meet up, which I saw on Instagram. I was like, you know, people love him and they want him and it's. He embodies this, like youth culture in a way that not many others designers can. So it would be great to see him. Him that I'd be very interested. I don't know if it'll happen. I don't know what the caring. The caring relationship is.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, it's interesting because usually I really know.

[Tish Weinstock]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

And this time I don't know. Maybe. Maybe by the time we publish this on Tuesday morning, I will have that information. I'm trying very hard. I know they're going to announce it this week, that I know. But usually I know, and I'm able to be like, I know this is gonna happen, but this time I don't know. And I was convinced over the weekend that it was definitely Eddie. Cause I talked to some people in Milan who would have good access, and they were acting like it. And then someone came up to me at a show and was like, it's Eddie. They're announcing on Wednesday. But then I heard today they're announcing on Thursday. And the thing. It makes sense from a business perspective. You would pay all the money in the world, no matter what happened between the company and Eddie 10 years ago or seven years ago, or however long it was now, you would mend that relationship. Because he will make the stock price go up.

[Tish Weinstock]

Yes.

[Lauren Sherman]

But the reality of it is that's only gonna happen if he wants it to. And also, I think caring is moving away from this idea that the creative director sort of is the director of the whole business, the whole brand. And so I think if he gets that job or if he took that job or whatever, that means that he is either gonna give up a little bit of the control he usually has. Because that's not gonna happen. Exactly. So I don't know, because I really thought this weekend I was like, it just makes the most common sense and we all want it and we all wanna see it.

[Tish Weinstock]

But then I don't think it's gonna happen. I don't know why. I just have a feeling that, I mean, I would love to be proved. Love to be proved wrong. But I have a feeling that he. I think maybe he's just gonna enjoy taking pictures. Yeah, I think he might go, like, to sort of focus on that for the time being. I don't. I don't know. I don't have any inside intel, but feels like he's. He doesn't need to go anywhere.

[Lauren Sherman]

No. No, he doesn't. And I was at a party at the WMAG party in LA in, I guess, January. I don't even remember at this point. I think it was January. And he was there hanging out with Nicola Ghesquare, which is a funny duo, and Jamie Mizrahi. They are both friends. The three of them were sort of hanging out together. But I was talking to someone there who knows him very well. And that person said, he says he doesn't want to do Anything. And so I think, look, like, why did he buy an apartment in Milan? Or whatever he did? We won't know. Maybe he. Who knows? Five years from now? He'd also be really great at Armani. He'd be great at a lot of different companies. I think that there is a chance that he has something in mind, but it's not gonna be for a long time. And I think you're right. I'm just really on the fence because I feel like the people who have told me it's him really know what they're talking about. But I also have talked to people who are close to him who are like, it's not him. And so if it's not him, who is it? Is the real question that I like, I don't know.

[Tish Weinstock]

Well, I guess who else is in the running? What is my blanking? The ex. Mew Mew guy.

[Lauren Sherman]

I think Dario. I think Dario's in the. Vitaly's in the running, but he is very engaged with Versace. So I think there would be. I think it's that he's probably the slim to none. The other two. Well, there's three, actually. I have heard Demna's name, which, like, I think is not true.

[Tish Weinstock]

I, Yeah, I could. That would be very interesting.

[Lauren Sherman]

Interesting. I think it's. It's not. It doesn't. I don't think it makes sense for him either. And then I've heard this guy, Fabio, who worked at Prada forever and left a year ago and is amazing. And so that one, to me, in my mind, it's between. His last name is Fabio Sambernardi. Zam Bernardi. To me, it's between. And then the other person that keeps coming up is Peter Mueller or Muller or what have you. I, I, I kind of hope that they surprise us and it's none of them.

[Tish Weinstock]

I would love a sort of, like, surprise. Door number three.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes, it would be interesting.

[Tish Weinstock]

I think, you know, they need to. Because I guess they're either you either have a sort of, you know, the legend. You have like a Harry or like Peter Naz. You know, what he did with the Liar was obviously or is still, like, very well received. Like, people love it. It's gorgeous. So you either go for someone like that or you do someone like a Fabio. Someone who's, like, less.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Tish Weinstock]

Someone just really good at their job. And, and could. It's about, like, personality. Like, do you want. Because. Because do you get an unknown or do you get, like. Yeah, you know, the star. And I think, you know, Kering has proven recently that they like a little unknown also. What can they afford as well? There is that for sure.

[Lauren Sherman]

That is a good point.

[Tish Weinstock]

And I think most brands aren't going to pay these gigantic fees for, you know, not yet.

[Lauren Sherman]

You gotta. Yeah. I think one interesting thing about Fabio is he knows friend Francesca Valentini, who's the deputy CEO of Kering, and also Stefano Cantino, who worked at Prada for many years with him. So the interesting thing about him is he's an unknown to the world, but he's not unknown to them.

[Tish Weinstock]

Oh, no. He, you know, the general public.

[Lauren Sherman]

So it might be the best. Best solution.

[Tish Weinstock]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

Other people. I don't. I honestly. I truly do not know the answer to this one. And it's been extreme. Honestly. Very, very fun because sometimes I know, and I'm like, I know, I know, I know. And then eventually I get to prove it, but usually people are like, no, this, no, this. And so in this case, I still don't know.

[Tish Weinstock]

Maria Grazie was also a name. I mean, obviously she's very much still at Dior, but people have said her name, but I think that sounds like it's a bit of a. They need someone there now. Right?

[Lauren Sherman]

No, and I. And I think. I think she definitely spoke to them, but I am. I would say I. It's not her. That's what I.

[Tish Weinstock]

That.

[Lauren Sherman]

I know that. That's one of the things I know. But. But yeah, it's. It's been.

[Unknown]

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[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, sure thing.

[Unknown]

Hey, you sold that car yet?

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, sold it to Carvana.

[Unknown]

Oh, I thought you were selling to that guy.

[Lauren Sherman]

The guy who wanted to pay me in foreign currency, no interest, over 36 months. Yeah, no. Carvana gave me an offer in minutes, picked it up and paid me on the spot. It was so convenient.

[Unknown]

Just. Just like that.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

No hassle?

[Lauren Sherman]

None.

[Unknown]

That is super convenient. Sell your car to Carvana and swap Hassle for convenience. Pickup fees may apply.

[Lauren Sherman]

There was something I wanted to ask you about. A friend of mine sent me this essay that this academic wrote in the New Yorker recently about like. And I. It really reminded me of what's happening in fashion right now. It was about essentially about. She uses the word literalist and essentially about like, everything is so on the nose in film now that there's no room. It's just not as creative as it once was. And she mentions in the piece, like, everyone wears Doc Martens but nobody is a goth. And I read it this weekend. I ended up mentioning it. I don't know, it might get cut out of my column that I wrote on Monday. I really went off on a tangent. But it was interesting that I was speaking to you today because you wrote a book essentially called how to be.

[Tish Weinstock]

A Goth, which is obviously a in cheek title because I mean, what is a goth? Can subcultures truly exist in this age? I think. And are they sort of authentic? And what does that look like? And I think it is. It's a really interesting conversation. Thanks to the Internet. I think it's very hard to have these subcultures in the traditional sense. Like, and I think music and fashion have been sort of emancipated from each other in a certain way. Like obviously you're seeing all the biggest pop stars in the front row. Like music and fashion and campaigns, like music and fashion. That connection isn't going anywhere. But what I mean is what you wear is no longer that reflective of the music you listen to. And that's because you can listen to everything and nothing at the same time. Like, I could be listening to classical, but also have my Britney Spears and. And also Tyler in one go. It's a quick, you know, swipe of the. But we're being bombarded with all these different references, the same references. And I think we're all becoming this sort of melting pot of these references. And I think my point about goth gothicism and like Gothic Nurse is basically it pertains to these in particular women who are drawn to a slightly darker aesthetic. But that doesn't necessarily mean they listen to specifically goth music. It's just an aesthetic. But also there's a. It's. It's more than that. It's a sort of way of life. It's about women who do things differently and don't, you know, pertain to strict gendered stereotypes on how to be a woman. It's about women who are unapologetic, you know, about being themselves. But yeah, in this, the sense of subcultures, it is very hard to. The fact that. Back to Demna's show he's doing. He's He's. He's doing normal people or he's looking at normal people like, well, what is normal? And actually what I. What I saw a lot of. I didn't go to the Stella McCartney show, but I saw it on Instagram. I saw, you know, sort of in the office and it was the same for the Duran show. Like this idea of the work and work where. In Demna, we saw a bit of kind of work where. And it's sort of like we are our work and we are our Instagram page and we're all doing. It's such a world. Everything. Everyone's doing a bit of everything at the moment. The fact that I just walked a show, even though I'm a writer and I think the categories are. Get. Categories are getting less defined and. And it's much more fluid. So I think, yeah, we've definitely changed.

[Lauren Sherman]

Things have changed, yeah. Really quickly. On the work wear thing. I bought a Phoebe Philo suit on this trip. It's not as expensive as you would think. People, especially here, and then you get the VAT refund. I really don't like talking about my shopping because people are like, how are you doing this? You're insane. But it's like my one thing for the year or whatever. But anyway, I bought it. It's beautiful. And I love the suits at Balenciaga. I really, I love. I like the suits of Givenchy. I thought they were really beautiful. Obviously, Heider. And yeah, what Tom Ford has to reckon with is this idea of, like, Zenya. Generally people don't wear. You don't have to wear a suit to work. Maybe you do. If you work at LVMH and you're a CEO, you have to wear a navy Dior suit. Generally, most people don't wear suits to work. I don't have to wear a suit to work. You don't have to wear a suit to work. And Mo. And honestly, like, a lot of lawyers don't have to anymore. So what does that all mean? And I think it's very fascinating. Maybe it's like, has to do with COVID and the ba. And now everybody's like, having to go back to work. And the culture of that and fetishizing the suiting is very interesting. But it was crazy that the Stella show, then Duran and then Demna all. Yeah, we're talking in conversation about, like, office culture when none of us really have to go to an office or a lot of us don't and it's.

[Tish Weinstock]

Not really the same. But Caperni did the whole, like, gamers. And that felt kind of like it was like a convention. It was this formal idea of people getting together, which feels more akin to work than, like, play, even though they're literally playing games. But I think, yeah, it's. Post Covid, the return to work, the cult of busyness, this fetishization of being busy and exhausted and like, oh, God, I've. It's rampant posting and content. I think we're all a bit. It's a. It's a commentary on all of that because everyone who I've. It's day, whatever it is Fashion Week, and everyone who I've seen today is like, I'm so tired because, like, talking, so exhausted, you know, and it's. But it's. You. You're complaining if you're. If you're not. When there's, like, workers, when it's a fallow period, you're like, something feels wrong. And like, we're, you know, being on holiday. I don't know about you, but I'm definitely checking my emails and I'm getting Enough, please.

[Lauren Sherman]

I'm American.

[Tish Weinstock]

Yeah, okay.

[Lauren Sherman]

But you're definitely checking my emails on holiday.

[Tish Weinstock]

Christmas and August, I find it quite miserable. I'm like, oh, me too.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, I don't like the disc. I'm going to Japan and that's the only way I'm going to be able to do it, because I'm going to be so far that I'm going to be able to actually disconnect in April. But I'm curious, when in the thinking and fleshing out your book and thinking about these ideas thing, I'm always was talking with some people about McQueen and Sean McGear, and someone said, look, I thought it was a much better collection. He's getting there. And I know for British people in particular, it's the hardest house. It's as hard as a lie or whatever to get right. But the thing that they said was, it just seems like he needs to be out in the world. And he is. But we are all. The thing I see with designers now is because of the fact that we live so much of our lives online and imagery is so instant and you can access anything, like, you can get. You can go on the Internet and see the photos from the shoot from 1955 that you want to see, or you can watch Badlands or whatever and immediately get the reference. Whereas previously, 30 years ago, you had to imagine what that was because you or you go to the library and see it. How do you think? Like These subcultures and things that do feel, in some ways to be dissolving and then in other ways, reforming virtually. How do you think the human race can keep creativity going? Not to get redeep or anything.

[Tish Weinstock]

I'm like, oh, this will be easy to answer. I think, as we've seen historically, in dark times, in times of crises, creativity flourishes because of the urgency. There's an urgent need to create beauty or to create darkness as a way of coping with all of the darkness and to frame it in a goth context. The reason why now is the moment to start talking about it is because you're seeing the return of Wednesday, the return of Beetlejuice, Nosferatu, and then in fashion, there was definitely a dark aesthetic coming through. Then you sort of had the rise of Gabriellette and Emilia Gray, and people want. And people were bringing Marria Carla back. Not that she ever really went away, but, like, people were leaning towards this, like, darkness because it was, in a way, soothing, because the world is not well as we know it. There's, like, a lot of scary stuff, particularly for you guys in America.

[Lauren Sherman]

What are you talking about?

[Tish Weinstock]

Yeah, just a hunch that things might be quite difficult over there. So I think, you know, in times of strife, creativity does flourish, and I think the Internet is a blessing and a curse. I think it's like, definitely. I think there's something to be said for, you know, when you have all these references at your fingertips, they get really sort of fatigued and, like, boring, and you're just. You remove them from their initial context, and they sort of take away some of the urgency about them or the radical thinking behind them, so they get a little bit, like, anesthetized. But I think that will just inspire designers, creatives, artists to look further and to look in more obscure places. I believe. Maybe I'm being really optimistic here, which is not actually in my nature. I'm a real sort of pessimist. But I'm hoping that it will drive people to find better, better references. Because you hear a lot these days of photographers being, like, cannibalizing each other and being, oh, yeah, I want to do a shoot inspired by this Meisel shoot. I'm like, why? Meisel did it? And it did it amazingly. Like, think about something else that you need to move the conversation on. I think it's hard unless you're doing something, you know, interesting, recontextualizing it in an interesting way. But a copy and paste. What I think is it because we're seeing. What I think is we'll see more bad work, but the good work will really rise to the top. So we'll see more stuff, and we'll be able to sort the wheat from the chaff. Like, the cream rises to the top, and I think. But you have to get through it. You have to just wade through it. And that's up to you, as the viewer or as the consumer, to define what is good and what is bad or what you like and what you don't like.

[Lauren Sherman]

I hope you're right.

[Tish Weinstock]

Yeah, me too.

[Lauren Sherman]

Tisha was such a pleasure to have you. Are you going to shows tomorrow? Will I see you at all?

[Tish Weinstock]

No, no. I've got to go and see my children.

[Lauren Sherman]

Okay. I understand. Mine. Mine came here, so I get it. Oh, great.

[Tish Weinstock]

Oh, how's that? I did that once, and it didn't go to plan.

[Lauren Sherman]

My husband is. Is available, let's put it that way. So, yeah. Yeah, it's been. It's good. And we just have one that makes it easier.

[Tish Weinstock]

Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

That's different. And he's four. He's like. He's pretty easy. He came to Sakai this morning, which was very cute.

[Tish Weinstock]

Oh, what, did he think he should come on the podcast?

[Lauren Sherman]

He loved it. He really enjoyed it. He shook Vanessa Friedman's hand. He said he really liked the look with the red bag, which there wasn't one, so I think he meant the red dress. But he had a great time.

[Tish Weinstock]

That's quite amazing. If he's like, he's. Maybe he's this sort of genius, and he was just sort of messing with it. He's like, don't you think the red bag's great? It's like the emperor's new clothes. And you're like, yeah, love.

[Lauren Sherman]

He's very funny. But it was such a pleasure to meet you, and I hope we meet in person next season.

[Tish Weinstock]

Yeah, definitely.

[Lauren Sherman]

And read Tish's book, How to Be a Goth Notes on Undead Style.

[Tish Weinstock]

Thanks.

[Lauren Sherman]

Have a safe. Have a safe ride home. Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman, and Bob Tabador.