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- [00:00]
Lauren Sherman
This episode of Fashion People is sponsored by Universal Pictures presenting Wicked. Now nominated for 10 Academy Awards, including Best Picture Best Actress, Cynthia Erivo, Best Supporting Actress Ariana Grande and Best Costume Design by Paul Tazwell. Vogue says Paul Tazwell makes magic with his costume designs, and Forbes says Wicked is a triumph of cinema with gorgeous and creative costumes. Wicked is now playing in theaters and available to watch at home.
- [00:32]
Dennis Galanka
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- [01:08]
Lauren Sherman
Welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet, and today with me on the show is Cynthia True and Dennis Galanka, co hosts of Blow Up. When Liz Tilbaras Transformed Bizarre, we discussed what it was like to be a magazine editor in the 1990s, Liz's legacy, and so much more. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the art world, world and much more. If you're interested listeners of Fashion People get a discount. Just go to Puck News Fashion People to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday everyone. What a week. As of right now, Carrie and Gucci have ended their quote unquote collaboration with Sabado Dasarno after a torturous year and a half where sales and profits continue to decline at their profit center. In Thursday's Line Sheet, I share some fresh reporting on how it all went down and who might be next. As I've said before, this is nobody's fault and everybody's fault, and I wish Sabato the best of luck. I also wish Stefano Cantino, the CEO of Gucci, the best of luck. It's gonna be okay. It really is gonna be okay. There's also some weird stuff going down at lvmh that is kind of connected to the Gucci thing. Then I also dug into the whole Kate Middleton fashion gag order, which I find very fascinating. So don't miss it. And definitely don't miss Rachel Strugatz's chock. Full coverage of Estee Lauder's it's called A transformation, which included 7,000 layoffs this week. That's a lot of people. Let's get going with Dennis and Cynthia. As a massive Liz Tilbaras fan, I love chatting with them about their narrative podcast about her years at Harper's Bazaar are mostly in the 1990s and also their observations about how the industry has changed over the last 30 years. Dennis Galanka and Cynthia True, welcome to Fashion People.
- [03:45]
Cynthia True
Thank you so much. We are so excited to be here.
- [03:49]
Lauren Sherman
Thank you both for being here. I am so excited to talk to you. I have a million questions. I have a million questions from other people. The first question we ask on Friday, though, is, what did you both have for breakfast?
- [04:03]
Cynthia True
You wanna go?
- [04:04]
Dennis Galanka
Cynthia, do you wanna go first?
- [04:05]
Cynthia True
I'm embarrassed to say all I've had black coffee. Actually, not black coffee. What am I saying? I've had coffee with half and half and sugar. That's it. That's kind of my breakfast.
- [04:15]
Dennis Galanka
All right, well, Laura, I knew you were gonna ask this question, so I feel like I cheated. So I had a scrambled tofu with peppers and onions and a side of toast.
- [04:27]
Lauren Sherman
That is one of the best breakfasts that we've had reported on this podcast.
- [04:33]
Dennis Galanka
Really? I've heard a couple others that I was like, oh, I like that one.
- [04:37]
Cynthia True
He's a disturbingly healthy eater.
- [04:39]
Lauren Sherman
I try, you know, we are all trying. I interviewed someone else this morning who had her AG1. So we got into the vitamins. But we all do our best every day, and you all are doing your best with this podcast, Blow up, which I am completely obsessed with. If anybody hasn't listened to it yet, you have to immediately. If you care about magazines at all or care about workplace culture and stories about amazing leaders and all that stuff like this has something for everybody. And especially if you're obsessed with fashion in the 90s, it's. It's really, really good. And my friend Carrie diamond, who worked, she was a beauty director at Harper's Bazaar for many years, mentioned it to me a few weeks ago and said, oh, you really need to talk to Dennis and Cynthia. She knows that I was growing up like that magazine is why I'm a fashion journalist. I love fashion, and it's why I wanted to move to New York, all that stuff. And so the fact that you all did this, it's so funny because I, like, am literally about to start to cry. And when I talked to Paul Kovaco, the best, a few months ago before you all launched, he cried.
- [06:04]
Dennis Galanka
Oh, Lauren, you're gonna make us cry.
- [06:07]
Lauren Sherman
I feel a very emotional connection to you all. But let's start with. Tell me a little bit about yourselves and how you ended up. And you all worked together for a long time. You're very close friends, you did this podcast together, so you can decide who says what. But tell me who you all are and how you ended up putting together this narrative series about Liz Tilbaras time at Harper's Bazaar.
- [06:35]
Cynthia True
Well, thank you, first of all, so much for everything you've said. It means the world to us. It really does. Den, do you want to start?
- [06:43]
Dennis Galanka
Well, I'll say this. I love Cynthia, and Cynthia lives in California. I live in New York. And during COVID we were talking quite a bit. And every time I would get off the phone with her, I would want more. And then one day we were speaking and she was saying that she was filling in her husband about Liz and Bizarre and Fabian and that there wasn't a lot of information out there. And quite frankly, sin, I was like, that's crazy. Of course, there must be.
- [07:11]
Cynthia True
No, me too.
- [07:12]
Dennis Galanka
And then we got off the phone and I googled it and I was like, oh, my gosh, there's really not. And we proposed kind of in that conversation, like, should we do a documentary? Should we do a podcast? And my friendship with Cynthia meant so much to me, and I thought, if there is anyone in the world that I would want to do this kind of in depth project with, it would be Cynthia. And then we just started making some calls. We made a list, we made some calls, and. And then people just were jumping on right away, right, Sam?
- [07:42]
Cynthia True
Yeah. I mean, yes, all of that is true. I think that what was really nice, I think Paul Cavaco and Richard Sinnett were our first calls, and they said yes. And once we had them, you know how it works, then it was easier to grab other people. And everybody was really very warm to the idea because of their love for Liz. But just jumping back a second, Dennis and I met on my very first day of Harper's Bazaar. We met at orientation for all of the assistants. And actually, until we did the podcast, I thought it was also your first day. But he told me recently, no, I had been there a month already. It was just that we met. I was going to the orientation anyway, and I had all these questions at orientation, and he was just laughing at me the whole time. He was like, oh, my God. Like, the poor HR woman is like, when is this girl gonna stop? And I was like, well, I'm here to be reporter. I mean, I thought they would like that. And anyway, we just.
- [08:39]
Dennis Galanka
No, they did like it. And I thought it was fantastic.
- [08:42]
Cynthia True
So stupid.
- [08:42]
Dennis Galanka
It just lines up with your work ethic.
- [08:44]
Cynthia True
Anyway, so we became fast best friends. We were roommates. We were always looking for a project to do together. We all. We came close to starting a magazine together called Bleach, which didn't go anywhere, but we were always looking for a chance to do something together because we're both very entrepreneurially minded and. Yeah, so I had just been watching actually several of the Vogue docs, which I loved. I think I had just rewatched September Issue and then there was something about the Costume Institute and Anna Wintour and I was really. I just love those. I eat them up. And that was the other thing that was like, whoa, there's like four or five on Anna and Vogue and they're great. And I just rewatched unzipped, and I'm like, how is Liz completely shut out of all of these? Because from what I remember, Harper's Bazaar was ground zero of cool throughout the entire 90s. I mean, Liz was the beginning of 92 to 99. And it just seemed so strange. And like Dennis said, we just started looking. Like, I started checking out YouTube. Obviously there's books about Fabian. I don't mean that he's not covered, but to see kind of. There wasn't much footage. There wasn't a lot of him talking, like. And we just, from being assistants there, we knew what a very special story it was. And so that's really what happened. Yeah. And it came together, like Dennis said, really, really quickly. I had been. I'm a writer in la and you. I do so much on spec anyway, that it was like, why not write something for, you know, why not write six episodes with no money and fund it myself better than another spec script that sits in my drawer, you know, so this.
- [10:23]
Lauren Sherman
And really quickly, Cynthia, you worked in fashion features, and Dennis, you worked in the art department, correct?
- [10:29]
Cynthia True
Yes, exactly. I was assistant to Sarah Mower and Laurie James, who were the fashion director and fashion writer. They were. I mean, I couldn't have asked for nicer first. Sarah Mower, I mean, she was incredible, amazing, so cool. And we had a long distance relationship Cause Sarah was in London, and so I would come in. She really just wanted me to send her a FedEx with all of her. Those are the days where, you know, she'd get all her correspondence, maybe a couple of cool little items in the mail. Just pack me up my FedEx box. I'd send it, I'd get a few faxes. She was so nice and just easy. And it was the opposite of what you would think, you know, I was very nervous going in, and it was like, they were both so sweet. And Laurie James, who was more my day to day person that, you know, sat right behind me. She was just amazing. She took me to Bergdorf Goodman for the first time, showed me everything. Like, introduced me to the suitman before he was famous. Like, I just had the best time in the world, so I really wanted to revisit that.
- [11:28]
Lauren Sherman
And Dennis, who was on your team, and you became a photographer, right? And you do creative direction and stuff too?
- [11:35]
Dennis Galanka
Yes, I started as art assistant. So it was, you know, assisting everyone in the art department. Everyone in the art department. And Bizaar was very much about training people. And so the next thing I know, they promoted me within months to photo researcher. And then I was art editor and associate art editor. Then I was art editor, and then I became photo editor and then photo director. It took a while because Fabian didn't want a photo editor because he was photo editor, basically.
- [12:12]
Lauren Sherman
Interesting.
- [12:14]
Dennis Galanka
And then as the years went by, I mean, in magazines, the way you get a raise is to get a title change. So inevitably, they were like, all right, we've run out of titles to give you. We gotta just make you photo director. So, you know, I was like, yeah, whatever. But, yeah, that was my evolution there.
- [12:32]
Lauren Sherman
You all did a really good job of explaining what it was like to work there. Super descriptive. And my best friend is Leah Chernikov, who's the executive editor of Harper's Bazaar now. And we've been going back and forth about this, and she was like, you need to ask them. And Cynthia, you answered my question. What kind of budget did they have for this podcast? She has a podcast there. And, you know, I do this podcast and we know how much work and time and the, like, the polish of what you all put together is really remarkable. It's just the narrative's so good. So you do such an amazing job. Like the story, Dennis, of your Prada suit that you got called in, that kind of stuff, explaining and talking about how, like, Liz's assistant, talking about that last lunch that they. That lunch they had Together. And they had champagne and, and caviar and all this stuff. Like, it was so, it's so rich with detail. But I'm curious, like, what were people like? Cynthia, you said the people you work for were really nice. I have this growing up, like, I had a real, I was very interested in Liz because I was interested in the magazine. And I remember my aunt bought me her memoir and all that stuff. I was in high school at the time. I was less interested. Now I'm obviously very interested in Anna Wintour. And I always say it's like, been a great privilege of my life to be a reporter covering her because it's so, she's so fascinating. But I didn't want to work at Vogue ever. I wasn't like, I just didn't care about that. But the impression for people like Leia and me growing up at that time was that it was like working in a magazine is like a very mean girl environment. What was it like? And like, what did people wear every day? Like, I know Paul's uniform, but, like, did everyone wear black? Like, was it what, like, what kind of brands did people wear? Because this was before the time where, like, everyone wore designer clothes. Was everyone wearing helmet laying? Or was it more like Theory or.
- [14:35]
Cynthia True
Dan, what do you think?
- [14:36]
Lauren Sherman
What was like, the vibe?
- [14:37]
Cynthia True
I can say what I was doing, but I think I was probably atypical. So you say what you were doing?
- [14:43]
Dennis Galanka
I, I, you know what, I want to say this about fashion people. Starting off, I felt so accepted because the fa. And this is why to this day, I love fashion people. There is no judgment on your sexuality. So my coming into working there, having that sort of embrace of who cares was it changed my world. Now clothing, yeah, they might judge you a little bit on that. And I certainly was pulled aside at one point and told Dennis, you need to dress better. And Cynthia and I joked about this because we thought we were. I mean, I was wearing my Benetton clothes from when I worked there and like this.
- [15:27]
Cynthia True
Urban Outfitters.
- [15:28]
Dennis Galanka
Yeah, I was. What? I look good. And so I started walking around the office and really observing the men who worked there. And there weren't many. I mean, you know, Paul Kovaco, Richard Sennett, Fabian, Johan Svensson, everybody wore black head to toe. And so I started just wearing black. And I mean, initially, you know, I was going to the stores and buying like a Calvin Klein T shirt and, you know, just basic black things. And I was getting by with it. And then as time went on, I started investing a little more money. In like, oh, I'm going to buy, you know, a Prada black shirt or pair of pants or whatever. And they would notice. People would notice. They would come, they would grab your collar and like, look at the tag. And I thought, oh, it's got to be a name brand. But to really answer your question, I think each fashion editor, it depended. Like Melanie Ward, you know, she's wearing Helmut Lang. Right. Tahni Goodman. She's wearing Calvin Klein, but black, you know.
- [16:28]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [16:29]
Dennis Galanka
So did.
- [16:31]
Lauren Sherman
Was there as much gifting back then?
- [16:33]
Cynthia True
Oh, my God, yes. It was pretty amazing.
- [16:38]
Dennis Galanka
I mean, Christmas time was a big bonanza. I mean, just non stop presence coming in.
- [16:46]
Cynthia True
Yeah.
- [16:46]
Lauren Sherman
Is there anything that you remember that you got or someone else got as like, oh, my God, I can't believe this happened.
- [16:51]
Cynthia True
They used to send great accessories to Sarah Mower all the time. Like, really, you know, sunglasses, bags, like, stuff like that. And I would obviously send that stuff on. What I got a lot of were like big, gorgeous, glossy coffee table books, like amazing, you know, big heavy fashion books. And I would take those right down to the Strand and get cash to pay my rent.
- [17:17]
Dennis Galanka
I know, it's awful.
- [17:18]
Lauren Sherman
I even had to call them in.
- [17:20]
Cynthia True
A couple of times. Like, I was bad. I was absolutely bad. But it was the only way to do it. I mean, you weren't really making anything and you had to, you know, figure it out a little bit.
- [17:30]
Lauren Sherman
Look, there are a lot. And I think they have tried to curb this and there have been a couple people who've gotten fired. But it really. In the 2000 and tens, early 2000 and tens. I feel like a lot of editors at those magazines that was like, they considered that part of their. Part of their income was getting free stuff and then selling.
- [17:52]
Cynthia True
Absolutely. And you know that and kind of encouraged it, you know, I mean, you know, it was that whole paternalistic thing of like, which all corporations did and probably do still with not paying you a lot, but, like, you could expense all your meals. You could, you know, take a cab anywhere you wanted with slight excuse, you know, all of that. So it was very like, we're taking care of you. So you felt you did. It did actually breed a sense of entitlement. Of course it did. And we were bad about, you know, it was also the age of like CDs. And then you could, like take all the crappy ones over to the thing or whatever. But no, you saw, I'm sure den, you saw even more like crazy Lux coming through for fab, huh?
- [18:33]
Dennis Galanka
Oh, I mean, just. I mean, Every designer. Every designer would send, you know, designer pajamas or, you know, coats or. I personally remember getting Jonathan Adler. Lots of Jonathan Adler, which I loved, and I still have a lot of it.
- [18:49]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, Maybe he'll listen to this and send you some more stuff.
- [18:52]
Dennis Galanka
Oh, I would love. I would love that. Oh, my God. But, you know, I was making $24,000 a year. That was my salary. Even when I was a photo editor, that was my salary. And I remember one of my photographer friends coming over to my studio and saying, oh, my God, this is how you live. You're the photo editor of Harper's Bazaar. And I didn't know we had an expense account. And I remember talking to Richard one day and kind of complaining about money, you know, and he was like, dal, are you using your expense account? And I was like, what expense account? And the expense account was just unlimited. And that's when I, like, I learned, like, okay, lots of dinners. They'll pay for that.
- [19:36]
Cynthia True
Sure.
- [19:37]
Dennis Galanka
And you've got, you know, they'll pay for that. Well, you know what? They should have been paying so low.
- [19:43]
Lauren Sherman
No, no. I mean, that's so crazy. When I started, I. My first job in New York was in 2005, and I. My salary was 35. So that's probably 10 years after.
- [19:55]
Cynthia True
Yeah.
- [19:56]
Lauren Sherman
But it's still like. And honestly, those people now probably make 60 if they're lucky, right?
- [20:03]
Cynthia True
No, it's so much worse now.
- [20:05]
Lauren Sherman
You know, you. You.
- [20:05]
Cynthia True
Yeah, I mean, obviously, at the time, we didn't realize we were in the golden age of publishing. In fact, you know, the. Where, you know, the cars were waiting at the curb for all the editors. You know, that whole. That whole world of daily flower deliveries. I also used to steal the flowers because they would change them after one day, and they were fine. I'd be like, oh, my God. No, no, no, no, no, no. Don't take those. Don't take those. We just. Yeah, we'd bring all that home.
- [20:29]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. That was another question I had for you. Did you all feel the. Like, this is really special.
- [20:37]
Dennis Galanka
Yeah, 100%.
- [20:38]
Cynthia True
Oh, yeah, it was the most. And also, you have to understand, like, for me, anyway, I was laying on the couch circling ads in the New York Times, and it just said, you know, want ads, and it said, hearst seeking editorial assistance. I didn't even think about Harper's Bazaar, if I'm being completely honest. Like, I didn't even know it was still a thing. I don't think I thought it was even being published anymore. So I was just thinking, like, oh, okay. Town and country. Maybe Cosmo. Please not let be read book. But I just went over there for that and then to find out it was Harper's Bazaar. I was like, oh, Harper's Bazaar. So the first day I'm walking in there and seeing like, what I'm in the middle of is like, oh, like I've dropped into an extraordinary situation. But it took me a while to understand the context of exactly, you know, that I had. That we had fallen into this, like, very unusual and cool sort of. Well, uprising is too strong a word, but you know what I mean. This, like, moment where Hurst was like, oh, we're back, you know, and that we were working with the best of the best. That took a second to sink in.
- [21:48]
Dennis Galanka
Yeah, I felt like a little celebrity. I mean, I honestly did. I. All my friends treated me accordingly and. And we were invited to every single fashion event, gallery opening, you know, all of it.
- [22:00]
Cynthia True
Yeah.
- [22:01]
Lauren Sherman
So fun. This episode of Fashion People is sponsored by Universal Pictures presenting Wicked. Now nominated for 10 Academy Awards, including best picture, Best Actress, Cynthia Erivo, Best Supporting Actress Ariana Grande, and best costume design by Paul Tazewell. Vogue says Paul Tazewell makes magic with his costume designs. And Forbes says Wicked is a triumph of cinema with gorgeous and creative costumes. Wicked is now playing in theaters and available to watch at home.
- [22:36]
Unknown
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- [23:37]
Lauren Sherman
What were the budgets like for the shoots? Like? Do you remember what was like an average shoot? Like how much would be spent?
- [23:47]
Cynthia True
Do you remember? I mean, Stephanie Albertson said 200. She said 200,000 a page. Is that crazy?
- [23:56]
Dennis Galanka
No, no, no, no. A shoot.
- [23:57]
Cynthia True
A shoot.
- [23:57]
Lauren Sherman
Okay, sorry.
- [23:58]
Cynthia True
A shoot.
- [23:58]
Dennis Galanka
Yeah, yeah. So if you had an eight page shoot, you're. I mean, it could run to 200,000.
- [24:05]
Lauren Sherman
So what compared to now? Like, the same shoot for a magazine?
- [24:11]
Dennis Galanka
For a magazine?
- [24:12]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [24:14]
Dennis Galanka
20,000. I mean, honestly, like. No, but. I mean, that's low. But, yeah, it's. It's fraction less than half. Yeah, yeah. There's no way any of those magazines even Vogue, they are not spending that on. On fashion shoots, I guarantee you.
- [24:32]
Cynthia True
I mean, do people even go to foreign locations anymore to shoot? Like, is the age of people still go to, like, Africa or.
- [24:41]
Dennis Galanka
Yeah, but not as much. And that's, you know, I mean, I think that's reserved for, you know, the star photographers. Like, you know, I mean, I don't think they're taking chances as much these days if you're a younger photographer. I think they're just like, no, you know, okay, you're based in New York. Okay, we have a studio shoot for you. Yeah, but, yeah, no budgets. Budget. I can't imagine budgets for magazine will ever go back there. I mean, advertising campaigns and so forth obviously still have bigger budgets.
- [25:07]
Cynthia True
I just remember Tawny Goodman talking about renting an aircraft carrier for a shoot. And we were like, oh, my God. I mean. Yeah. Just to give an idea of what was considered, like, an acceptable ask, you know?
- [25:19]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [25:20]
Dennis Galanka
And then keep in mind, sometimes you would do those shoots and then they would be canceled and reshot.
- [25:25]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [25:26]
Cynthia True
Oh, yeah, yeah. That was like. I mean, Fabienne said that Bizarre. Really didn't do a lot of that compared to, say, Vogue, that they were.
- [25:34]
Dennis Galanka
Quite interesting because Fabian. Fabian could save anything with his graphics, his design. He really would be able to. Even if it was a bad photo shoot, he would be able to kind of chop it up or use his graphics on it or, you know, just do his magic. I mean, so we did. Yes. We did not kill a lot of fashion shoots. We really didn't.
- [25:56]
Lauren Sherman
It. It also felt like you all were so confident in the point of view of the magazine that, like. Like, you said you could save anything because the. The fundamental. There was a real idea there. So it wasn't like.
- [26:12]
Cynthia True
It was.
- [26:13]
Lauren Sherman
I know that sometimes you all would go on shoots and just make it up, but, like, there was, like, an underlying issue.
- [26:19]
Cynthia True
Exactly. I think that Fabienne and Liz had such a clear vision and along with Paul and Tani, who were really kind of that brain trust for what they wanted to do, you know, I think that there was a great call to Harper's Bazaar's golden era of the 40s, 50s, 60s. It was, like, astonishingly beautiful. And cutting edge, and they wanted to reference that. But I think that Fabien and Liz, particularly, also were very conscious of needing to advance it. You know, that it's not enough, of course, to go retro. You've got to figure out what is the modern spin on that and how are we advancing that and how are we going to bring this forth? And I just think that they were both. It just feels like it was so well articulated from that first issue that we all sort of. Yeah. Had a sense of. Yeah, they had so much confidence and, you know, that really just spreads out to everybody and also so much joy. Like, you just felt like they were really having a great time.
- [27:22]
Dennis Galanka
You know what else is interesting about photoshoots during that time? Inspiration. Like, today, a client, a magazine, will bring a storyboard, and it will be photos from other people or specific. Like, we want this lighting, we want these poses, we want this styling. Back then, it was, you know, a painting, a Renaissance painting was the inspiration, or, you know, a sculpture was the jumping off point. You know, it was so much looser.
- [27:50]
Cynthia True
The other cool thing that Paul mentioned to us about what you're saying, Den, is that you also had this thing where, because there wasn't Internet, you were mixing in someone's impression of a movie. So, you know, let's say that the, you know, Breathless is the inspiration, but perhaps, probably you hadn't seen it in, like, 10 years, so the editors are bringing all this other stuff into it, as opposed to being able to just immediately reference everything today. So that created, I think, kind of an impressionistic feeling of creating something brand new, even if you were referencing, you know, something else.
- [28:25]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, yeah. I think about that constantly in the imagery that we're fed on Instagram or what have you. And a lot of it is from the 90s and the era and a lot of images you all made or amplified and there. It doesn't feel as original now because people have so much access to all that imagery constantly, that it isn't coming. It isn't impressive. Yeah, it's. It's just direct. And so I think something is lost in that. Or you could say something else is gained. If you want to be positive about it.
- [29:00]
Cynthia True
Yeah, no, but I know what you mean. There's something about being able to reference things so quickly that the imagination. There's no space kind of, you know, or not no space, but it's just a different kind of. Yeah, it's a real different thing.
- [29:16]
Lauren Sherman
What brands? I know you all mentioned Calvin Klein on the podcast. We just talked about Helmet talked about. You talk about Liz's relationship with Karl Lagerfeld, a couple other designers she was really close with. But, like, what were the Harper's Bazaar brands? What were you. Which were the designers, if you weren't wearing them, that you were just covering a lot that felt like Prada.
- [29:40]
Cynthia True
Prada. Prada.
- [29:41]
Dennis Galanka
Cynthia and I loved apc. We remember cyn. That was a wonderful. Personally perfect.
- [29:48]
Cynthia True
To the extent that I could fit in to apc. I did love it. I did buy many of their. Many of their scarves. I think, though, that Prada was big, like, in terms of something that everyone's wearing around the office and also like the. The kind of what Liz really loved. Didn't you feel that? Helmut. Helmut Lang, for sure, yeah.
- [30:10]
Dennis Galanka
Chanel.
- [30:10]
Cynthia True
Chanel. Chanel. Of course.
- [30:12]
Dennis Galanka
No, obviously.
- [30:16]
Cynthia True
Ralph Lauren, too. And of course, Donna Karan. I mean, that was the other thing is that Donna Karan was such a big thing then, and she was such a close friend of Liz's. And I think she really embodied a certain accessibility that Liz was really trying to go for. And frankly, also a certain body, more of a range of body type. To the extent that you could address that back then. I think Liz did in her own way.
- [30:43]
Dennis Galanka
And then if you were going out, it was Tom Ford's Gucci.
- [30:47]
Cynthia True
Got it. I stayed home.
- [30:49]
Dennis Galanka
You know.
- [30:54]
Lauren Sherman
The Donna Karan piece is interesting because I remember seeing her on Opinion Oprah, and she's saying that she was like a size 11 or a size 13, which, like, doesn't really exist anymore. Those are junior size. I don't even know if they. Junior is a thing anymore. But I remember her saying that and being like, oh, she's a person who lives in the world and it's glamorous and cool and is not a size 2 or 4 or whatever was. Or 6 was probably like thin size.
- [31:21]
Cynthia True
And that was true of Liz as well. She's. She was tall, but she was. I don't know what her size. Maybe she was a 12. I mean, a normal woman. And she looked really, really chic. And I think that for me at that time, and I'm sure the other young women in the office, you know, it was a big deal. It was a big deal to see somebody like that who was allowed to occupy a high position in fashion without looking while having white hair and not being real thin, you know, because, you know, you could feel as a journalist like, well, I'm never going to be that. So therefore, I'm locked out of all of this. And with Liz, it was Kind of like, oh, no, there could be. And I know that if Liz were around now, she would totally embrace the movement toward more body diversity. For sure. Well, more diversity, period. Right?
- [32:16]
Dennis Galanka
Yeah.
- [32:19]
Cynthia True
Hey, I'm Ben Stiller.
- [32:20]
Dennis Galanka
I'm Adam Scott and we make a TV show called Severance. Severance is back for season two on Apple tv.
- [32:26]
Unknown
Before the premiere, Ben and I are.
- [32:28]
Dennis Galanka
Going to be binging season one and putting daily recaps. And after that, we're going to keep going as we recap every episode of season two. The Severance podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is presented by State Farm. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen and follow now on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [32:50]
Lauren Sherman
This episode is brought to you by Alma. There's no reason that as a clinician, you should be spending hours on paperwork to bill for insurance or not knowing for sure when you'll next be reimbursed for sessions with your clients. If you're interested in seeing clients through insurance, but don't want to navigate the process and paperwork on your own, Alma can help. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates and guarantee payment within two weeks. Speaking of sort of accessibility, when I think of Bazaar now and when I was in high school reading this, I wasn't really thinking about like, oh, these are the prices that they're using. I wasn't, I did read British Vogue at that time. I would buy it and they, that was where I learned about the high street. And that was. There was H and M there before here and all of that. But I was looking at some old Vogues actually from the turn, like 1999, 2000, recently. Recently. And there are not, there's a lot of really affordable clothes and there aren't a lot of designer clothes in the marketplace. Like, yeah, it was much more, it was much more like, because the thing is, in at that time, as you all know, these brands were not everyone. It wasn't like everyone in the world knew about Tom Ford for Gucci or would be trying to buy it on sale. Whereas now if you live anywhere and you live near Saks Fifth Avenue, you might try to. All of that stuff has become closer to the consumer who wouldn't typically be in, in that world. Or like, even if you had a good amount of money back then, like, wearing head to do a designer wasn't necessarily an idea that you would entertain if you didn't live in New York and just curious when you all were sort of creating the magazine, was there ever talk about price? Was there. Was it considered a luxury? Because I know when Glenda got there, they really were like, we are for the luxury consumer. It's a shopping magazine. And they focused on the really, really high end of apparel and things for their market pages, things like that. Was that ever a conversation or was it just like, let's do cool fashion, don't worry about that. What was the sort of, I feel.
- [35:24]
Cynthia True
Like it was, let's do cool fashion, right, or am I wrong? What do you think, Dan?
- [35:28]
Dennis Galanka
Well, I mean, I think the fashion editors wanted to do cool fashion for sure, 100%. Of course. I think Liz wanted to and felt it was important to mix in the J. Crew for, for the lower end items. And probably comes from her time at British Vogue with her more dash than cash, actually.
- [35:49]
Lauren Sherman
Oh, yeah.
- [35:50]
Dennis Galanka
But yeah, she would, I don't wanna say force people, but highly suggest mixing in even a Gap T shirt. You know, and Taney would embrace that for that matter, you know, they weren't necessarily about, I don't think, you know, oh, this is Tom Ford, so let's use it. I think they were what looks best. And it was a lot of mix and matching. Whereas, you know, today a lot of the designers are like, no, no, you use my whole outfit. You do not mix this with anything else.
- [36:22]
Lauren Sherman
Right, Totally. So true. And I thought you all did a very diplomatic job of covering the Hannah piece of it. And I actually said to a friend of mine who worked, I was like, I really think you should listen to this. Not because it's so sensationalist, you can read that New York magazine article from 1999 or the one that you all that mentioned that Michael did on their rivalry if you want the, like, really gossipy stuff. But I thought, and I thought Grace did a really nice job too. Grace Coddington did a really nice job of talking about her relationship with Anna and her relationship with Liz. And I actually, I kind of knew they were friends, but I didn't know that it was that because I read Grace's memoir, so it must have been in there. But I didn't know to the extent of how close they were. But how did. When it was all playing out their rivalry and Liz moving to New York and sort of encroaching on Anna's territory. And the best thing that I think I've definitely written about it a couple of times. But this idea that Liz and Anna used to switch off the Met gala and Juan would host and the Other one would host. And the idea of that now is just so foreign because Anna is the Met Gala. And if Liz had not been sick and hadn't passed away, the trajectory of the fashion industry, I do believe, would have been very different.
- [37:51]
Cynthia True
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, Liz would have continued to give Anna a run for her money. No question about it.
- [38:00]
Dennis Galanka
I think Liz would be the editor in chief of Vogue. I think she would, at this point, be that now, you know, or the head, the editorial director, whatever Hannah's title is.
- [38:11]
Cynthia True
No, it's a. It's a fascinating relationship. I'm sorry, I don't remember exactly what.
- [38:18]
Lauren Sherman
The question was when there really wasn't one. I just labored. But no, it's fine. But when it was playing out, like, was it something you all were really aware of?
- [38:31]
Cynthia True
It was something that we were aware of, others being aware of. It was something that we heard the older people in the office, the more senior people in the office maybe talking about a little bit. I can remember sort of hearing a little bit. But other than that New York magazine piece, which of course came out before either of us even started there. Right. So that's in, like, April or May, and then Dennis and I started in the fall. So we were aware of it the way that anybody who read Page Six in the morning or whatever was aware of it. It was this big, you know, great media story between two really glamorous women. But I did not know until we did the podcast. I don't know if you knew Den, but I had no idea about, like, going back to Rememoir and everything and realizing the fight. I mean, the real, like, arm wrestle for, you know, they did not want them to get Linda Evangelista, for example, for the COVID And to know that Linda kind of bucked conventional wisdom on it and just said, I'm doing what I want to do. And I think for her, it was like, look, if Patrick's doing it, then it's okay for me to do it. And so that whole thing, you didn't realize, but, you know, something Grace said about it, which I loved, was she was like, Liz loved all of that. Liz was competitive. Liz loved giving Vogue a run for its money. And, I mean, what's more fun than some editor telling you there's no way you're going to get any of these people? And she did. I mean, I. I think that part of it was a real joy for her and a bit of mischief, frankly.
- [40:03]
Dennis Galanka
I mean, let's face it, Anna's an incredible woman, and she's done Incredible things. And Liz did as well. They just went about it differently. And I think that was one of the resounding things we would hear over and over again when we would ask the question about Liz, about Anna, you know, people. Many of the people we interviewed worked at both magazines, and we would just simply ask the questions. We were open to whatever the answers were, for that matter, even Liz, you know, going into this, we knew Liz was amazing, but, you know, maybe other people wouldn't have had that view. And we were open to whatever direction it went. And it just so happened that again and again it was. Liz was amazing. And Anna led differently.
- [40:50]
Lauren Sherman
One question I have for you about Liz, and it's hard looking back now because you remember the good. Did you all ever complain about her? Like, did. Was there stuff that annoyed anyone about her?
- [41:02]
Cynthia True
Never. Never. She was like the Mary Poppins of fashion, and you knew it. No, she was a star. I mean, you know, that's the thing, too, is that you would. I'd have some little reason to go to her office to drop off, you know, some copy that my boss had written. And she was so sweet. She'd make little eye contact pictures, peek her head out, give you a little wave, and you just felt like you had. I mean, you felt like you had interacted with a star. You know what I mean? She was so glamorous and at the same time accessible. So, no, I feel like she was sort of completely above reproach. And she was funny. She had a way of ducking in and saying something hilarious and leaving, you know, or you could tell she's naughty. Smoking a cigarette. No, she was just so, so sweet. I mean, there were a few other people there who I found intimidating, appropriately, but. But she set the vibe.
- [41:49]
Dennis Galanka
There was one time. This is how she would deliver a message if she was upset with you. There was one time after she had cancer and she was wearing the wig, and her wig maker had simply expressed some interest in a book that was very hard to get. And I don't remember the name of the book, but he loved it. He couldn't get it. It was in one of the libraries. And she asked me, will you send a photographer to the library to take photography pictures of this book and send it to my wigmaker? And I was like, absolutely. Well, I forgot. And she came to me maybe a month later into the office, and she stood in front of me and she said, oh, Dennis, yes, my wig maker, he didn't get those pictures yet. And I was like, oh, my gosh, Liz, I Will take care of that. I'm so sorry. Completely spaced on that. And she was like, okay. You know. You know how people can be when they want something. And I was like, yes, I'll take care of it. And walked out. And in retrospect, I think she was probably pissed at me, like, why? Why didn't you do that?
- [42:46]
Lauren Sherman
I would have been like, why didn't you do that? Yeah.
- [42:49]
Dennis Galanka
Yeah, exactly. Anyone would be. Or maybe most people would be like, what's wrong with you? But, yeah, she would deliver her message kindly, you know, even if she was mad at you.
- [42:57]
Cynthia True
Yeah. Very British.
- [42:59]
Lauren Sherman
I thought. The other really great anecdote was the. At the end, you're telling this emotional story about when she's essentially saying she's leaving the magazine. And, Dennis, you were worried because you had done. You had given a quote to New York magazine, which I was also like, that would never happen now. Like, New York magazine would never be calling the photo editor of Harper's Bazaar for a quote on something.
- [43:22]
Dennis Galanka
And like, they tricked me. This is crazy.
- [43:27]
Lauren Sherman
Tell the story. I'm very curious.
- [43:29]
Dennis Galanka
So we had run photos of Courtney Love, and she was wearing fur. And it wasn't photos that we took. It was, you know, random paparazzi pictures.
- [43:39]
Lauren Sherman
Got it.
- [43:40]
Dennis Galanka
And somebody called me up, and she said that she was a photo researcher and she wanted to get that photo. And she said, I just want to confirm that she was wearing fur. And I said, I don't know for sure. I said, but here's the company I got the photo from. Give them a buzz. And she said, okay, but I mean, was she wearing fur? And I said, well, I said, if it says that she was wearing fur, I imagine, yeah, she was wearing fur. I was like, but you should probably fact check that. And so the quote went out and said, dennis Golonka from Harper's Bazaar says that Courtney Love was wearing fur. And it got. And then I think it was the New York Post or somebody called me to comment on my question, and that's how I even knew about it. And then it escalated, and it got to Liz. It got to Karen Johnson, the managing editor. And then I was pulled in by the art director, and people were furious.
- [44:36]
Cynthia True
Was the fury over the idea that you suggested Bizarre had used real fur in a. In a photo shoot?
- [44:42]
Dennis Galanka
Was that the fury? Was that I was speaking to the press.
- [44:45]
Cynthia True
Oh, period.
- [44:46]
Dennis Galanka
At this point, they definitely did not want us speaking to the press, because the big secret was we did not want people to know Liz was sick. So really, it was like, don't talk to the press because of that. And so the idea of Dennis talking to the press was like, what is wrong with you? But I was tricked.
- [45:06]
Lauren Sherman
No journalistic integrity at New York magazine in 1998 or whatever this was. But it was a funny story in a way. And I thought. I did think you all did a great job about talking about Liz's illness. She had ovarian cancer and for a long time and had gone through a lot. And basically the whole time she was doing the magazine.
- [45:30]
Cynthia True
Right. I mean, she had the first 18 months to enjoy, I think about. Right. Done something like that, if that. And then. And then diagnosis. And actually, even within that first 18 months, she was very tired, apparently. You would never have known it. You would never have known it.
- [45:45]
Dennis Galanka
You would never have known.
- [45:46]
Cynthia True
But she says in her memoir that she. She was feeling tired and weak and of course attributed it to starting a new mag, you know, starting this crazy job.
- [45:55]
Lauren Sherman
So, yeah, so looking back, you all are still in editorial. You're still doing stuff connected to this world in some way or another. When you look at magazines now, I don't know if you even read these kinds of magazines or look at them anymore. But when you think of Liz as a leader, Liz as a visionary, Fabian. The other thing I was thinking about really quickly is, like, I could just see Fabian not caring about Vogue at all and just like. Which was probably great for you all when it came to the competition, because he probably wasn't even looking at it.
- [46:34]
Cynthia True
I don't think he was. I don't think he was at all.
- [46:37]
Lauren Sherman
But just going back, like, what do you think? And not just magazines, online, everything, because we just think of when we're making things now. The medium is almost less important than what you're actually trying to communicate. What are some of the big lessons or ideas that you wish that people would take more inspiration from? Now, when you look at what Liz and you all and Fabian and Paul and Tawny created back then, Trust the people you're hiring.
- [47:11]
Dennis Galanka
Give them free reign to, you know, really create. I think that's one of the big things. People are so insecure. Corporations lead much more these days. In all the fashion houses, in all the magazines, it's all about money. And risk taking is so important for success, such as Bazaar. There were a lot of risks taken, and I think people are much more afraid of taking risks today.
- [47:38]
Cynthia True
Yeah, I agree. I think Liz was a great judge of character, a great judge of talent. And like Dennis said, once those people were in place, she seems to have really let Them do what they came to do. And the other thing about it is that everything. There was a real warmth. You know, people talk about how spare, bizarre looked and elegant and edgy, but there was a warmth to it. And I think that was exuded throughout the workplace and then into the book itself. And that, I think, is it something that people were responding to subconsciously? I know I was. That I didn't have to feel. Somebody recently said something about, like, yeah, you didn't have to feel bad that you're not, like, married to a duke. You know, like, it was sort of like for. There was fantasy, but there was also, like we said, accessibility and just a weeness about it all, even if it was not diverse, you know, because it was the 90s. But there was just that. And I love that because someone, I think, Linda Evangelista said to us, you know, it's not necessary to torture people for fashion. And that was the whole ethos. And I just loved that. And I've always carried that with me. You know, you don't have to go there to get creative, work out into the world.
- [48:58]
Dennis Galanka
Yeah.
- [49:01]
Lauren Sherman
Cynthia and Dennis, thank you so much for being here.
- [49:04]
Cynthia True
Thank you.
- [49:05]
Dennis Galanka
Your support of us, of the podcast, having us on your amazing podcast. Yeah, thank you.
- [49:12]
Cynthia True
That's a dream come true. We really, really appreciate it. And, yeah, we kind of can't believe it, so thank you.
- [49:19]
Lauren Sherman
Of course. I really think you guys should do a book. Not that.
- [49:22]
Dennis Galanka
That is.
- [49:22]
Cynthia True
Oh, that's interesting.
- [49:23]
Lauren Sherman
It would cost you even more money. But you should do a book because it could be really in depth and. But also visually.
- [49:31]
Cynthia True
Really, we would love to do something like that. What a great idea. Yeah, we would love it.
- [49:36]
Dennis Galanka
That's amazing.
- [49:37]
Lauren Sherman
I hope you do.
- [49:37]
Cynthia True
Thank you again.
- [49:38]
Lauren Sherman
And I hope I get to meet you both in person. Yeah, let's.
- [49:42]
Cynthia True
Let's make it happen, because I'm. I mean, as you know, Altadena near Eagle Rock. So. Yeah.
- [49:46]
Lauren Sherman
Yes.
- [49:47]
Cynthia True
All right.
- [49:47]
Lauren Sherman
When things calm down and Dennis, I come to New York a lot.
- [49:50]
Dennis Galanka
Please let me know next time you're here. I know you love New York, so I.
- [49:53]
Cynthia True
Yes, please, let's do it.
- [49:55]
Lauren Sherman
Thank you.
- [49:56]
Cynthia True
Thank you so much. Great day.
- [49:57]
Dennis Galanka
Thank you.
- [49:58]
Cynthia True
Thanks again.
- [50:03]
Lauren Sherman
Hey, my fashion people, before I let you go, I wanted to recommend another Puck podcast called the Grill Room. It's hosted by our media guy, Dylan Byers. And the Grow Room is for Media Junkies, starring media junkies, and it's made by a media junkie. I know many of you love following Dylan's work on everything from CNN to the Washington Post, so be sure to check out the Grow Room wherever you get your podcasts. Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co Founder John Kelly, executive Editor Ben Landy and Director of Editorial Operations Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob Tabador.