Freudian Fashion Theory

Summary

Fashion People – Episode: Freudian Fashion Theory

Release Date: January 24, 2025
Host: Lauren Sherman
Guest: Bella Freud, Fashion Designer and Host of Fashion Neurosis

---

Introduction to Bella Freud

In the episode titled "Freudian Fashion Theory," Lauren Sherman welcomes Bella Freud, a renowned fashion designer and the creative mind behind the popular podcast Fashion Neurosis. The conversation begins with Lauren sharing her recent experiences in New York, setting a casual and engaging tone for the discussion.

Early Life and Education

Bella Freud delves into her formative years, explaining her passion for fashion that blossomed during her time in Rome. She recounts her education at a fashion school in Rome, where she immersed herself in the craftsmanship of tailors and shoemakers.

"I used to just hang around and sort of see what distinguished ready-to-wear from made-to-measure and all the secret codes of how a garment is constructed."
— Bella Freud [07:29]

Bella highlights the importance of understanding the intricacies of garment construction, such as cuff buttons and interlining, which laid the foundation for her meticulous approach to design.

Professional Journey and Vivienne Westwood

After completing her studies, Bella returned to London and secured a position with Vivienne Westwood, a pivotal experience in her career. She describes working for Vivienne Westwood in the late 1980s as transformative, emphasizing the lessons learned about production, show management, and sales.

"I was the first time I really saw how important clothes were. If you didn't have much confidence, clothes could really give you this magic garb of something that you didn't actually have within you."
— Bella Freud [11:00]

Her time with Vivienne Westwood instilled in her the significance of clothing in shaping identity and confidence, influencing her design philosophy.

Launching Her Own Label

After three years with Vivienne Westwood, Bella took the bold step to launch her own label. She initially focused on accessories, creating bags and shoes, before transitioning to knitwear. Bella shares anecdotes about collaborating with a Scottish knitwear factory and the challenges of maintaining quality and uniqueness.

"In Scotland, they don't have those machines and if they do, it costs a fortune. Whereas in China you have these really skilled people."
— Bella Freud [28:13]

Bella credits her perseverance and obsession with overcoming industry obstacles, allowing her to sustain and grow her brand despite financial hardships.

The Creation of Fashion Neurosis

One of the highlights of the episode is Bella's discussion about her podcast, Fashion Neurosis. She explains the inspiration behind its creation, drawing parallels between fashion and psychoanalysis. The podcast features in-depth conversations with industry insiders, structured like therapy sessions to uncover the deeper narratives behind fashion.

"People seem open to just talking. And there is an aspect of fashion which is a bit like that. But in the end, the clothes themselves have to be totally convincing."
— Bella Freud [35:16]

Bella emphasizes the importance of authentic dialogue in understanding the complexities of the fashion world, aiming to reveal the "behind-the-scenes" stories that often remain hidden.

Insights on the Fashion Industry

Throughout the episode, Bella offers her perspectives on the evolving fashion landscape. She discusses the shift from high street manufacturing to more inventive and quality-driven production methods. Bella also touches on the resurgence of Scottish cashmere and the global dynamics of fashion manufacturing.

"There seems to be more openness to ideas that young, really young people are craving. They don't just want a look."
— Bella Freud [46:44]

She believes that the current generation of designers and consumers is pushing the industry towards greater creativity and integrity, balancing commercial success with artistic expression.

Signature Designs and Popular Pieces

Bella proudly talks about her most popular design, the "1971" jumper, explaining its timeless appeal and the thoughtful craftsmanship behind it.

"The white stripe is flattering to the face. And I've also been quite careful and protective of it."
— Bella Freud [30:35]

She describes how this piece resonates with a wide audience, transcending generations and embodying the essence of her design philosophy.

Challenges and Adaptability

Bella reflects on the challenges faced in the fashion industry, particularly in maintaining quality and fostering strong relationships with manufacturers. She highlights the importance of adaptability and continuous innovation to stay relevant.

"With fashion, there are so many obstacles at every single turn. It's difficult to make something and you just have to go on and on and be obsessed."
— Bella Freud [22:28]

Her ability to navigate these challenges has been key to her longevity and success in the competitive fashion landscape.

Conclusion and Future Directions

As the episode wraps up, Bella shares her optimism about the future of fashion, noting the increasing importance of originality and meaningful design in an era dominated by hyper-commerciality. She emphasizes the essential role of fashion in providing solace and inspiration during tumultuous times.

"Clothing and ideas and music and everything that gives you the next thought is very, very essential. That feels almost like desperately important."
— Bella Freud [48:09]

Lauren Sherman concludes the episode by expressing gratitude to Bella, highlighting the insightful and heartfelt conversation that offers listeners a profound understanding of both Bella's journey and the broader fashion industry.

---

Notable Quotes:

• "I used to just hang around and sort of see what distinguished ready-to-wear from made-to-measure and all the secret codes of how a garment is constructed." — Bella Freud [07:29]
• "If you didn't have much confidence, clothes could really give you this magic garb of something that you didn't actually have within you." — Bella Freud [11:00]
• "There's something about it that it suits a lot of people and it's even feels like it relates to something." — Bella Freud [30:50]
• "People seem open to just talking. And there is an aspect of fashion which is a bit like that." — Bella Freud [35:16]
• "With fashion, there are so many obstacles at every single turn. It's difficult to make something and you just have to go on and on and be obsessed." — Bella Freud [22:28]

---

Key Takeaways:

• Craftsmanship and Quality: Bella emphasizes the importance of understanding garment construction and maintaining high-quality production standards.
• Influential Mentorship: Working with Vivienne Westwood was instrumental in shaping Bella's approach to fashion and business.
• Persistence in Fashion: Bella's journey illustrates the necessity of resilience and continuous innovation in overcoming industry challenges.
• Authentic Storytelling: Through her podcast, Bella aims to uncover the deeper narratives and personal stories that drive the fashion industry.
• Future of Fashion: The industry is moving towards greater creativity, integrity, and meaningful design, driven by a new generation of designers and consumers.

---

About Fashion People: Fashion People is a twice-weekly podcast hosted by Lauren Sherman, a correspondent for Puck's fashion and beauty memo Line Sheet. The show delves into the behind-the-scenes conversations and dynamics of the multi-trillion-dollar fashion industry, featuring insights from creative directors, industry insiders, and notable personalities.

For more engaging discussions and in-depth analysis of the fashion world, tune into Fashion People every Tuesday and Friday.

Transcript

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, sure thing.

[Bella Freud]

Hey, you sold that car yet?

[Carvana Representative]

Yeah, sold it to Carvana.

[Friend 1]

Oh, I thought you were selling to that guy.

[Carvana Representative]

The guy who wanted to pay me in foreign currency. No interest over 36 months. Yeah, no. Carvana gave me an offer in minutes, picked it up and paid me on the spot. It was so convenient.

[Lauren Sherman]

Just like that?

[Carvana Representative]

Yeah.

[Friend 1]

No hassle?

[Bella Freud]

None.

[Friend 1]

That is super convenient.

[Friend 2]

Sell your car to Carvana and swap hassle. For convenience, pick up these may apply.

[Friend 1]

Ready to level up. Shumba Casino is your playbook to fun. It's free to play with no purchase necessary. Enjoy hundreds of casino style games like bingo, slots and solitaire anytime anywhere with fresh releases every week. Whether you're at home or on the go. Let Shumba Casino bring the excitement to you. Plus get free daily login bonuses and a free welcome bonus. Join now for your chance to redeem some serious prizes. Play Chumba Casino today. No purchase necessary. VGW Group void were prohibited by law 18/ DNC supply.

[Lauren Sherman]

Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's fashion and beauty memo line sheet and today with me on the show is Bella Freud, fashion designer and host of one of my favorite podcasts, Fashion Neurosis. Happy Friday everyone. I am in New York for a split second. Yes, it's cold, it's not as bad as I had anticipated, but let's see how I'm feeling when I fly back to Los Angeles on Sunday morning where it's also in the 50s. So you know, what's 30 degrees? Anyway, new York is the best, but it's also the most ridiculous. I went down to the dry cleaner by my hotel to get a pair of pants pressed and the person at the front was like, we don't press anything. And if we did, it would take a week because everything we do goes to New Jersey and everything takes a week. I don't understand how that business works. You gotta have quicker turnaround in the city. 24 hours, 48 hours. I'm willing to pay extra. Most people are best of luck to them operating that way. Luckily for me, because this is New York, I walked one more block and found a place that had 24 hour turnaround this week on line sheet. We are busy. On Thursday, Rachel Strugatz dug into the business of Kardashian beauty. Do you even know Kim Kardashian had a beauty line? Well, she does. She's had many. And Rachel has the numbers on this one's performance. She also checks in on Kylie Cosmetics which has, you know, been a Journey. And those results may surprise you. I wrote about the potential exit of ballet designer Simone Bilotti, which, you know, it sounds like he's moving on to greener pastures, but these pastures were pretty green, at least for us, who loved the line and, and happy to have him around for the March show. Sad to see him go, Excited to see what happens next. Sarah Shapiro did a very sharp business analysis of Yuri where she said, if LinkedIn was a fashion brand, it would be Vori. Yes. I just want to say, for all the people sending me feedback, I know Vuor is popular. I understand why it's popular, especially among a certain set of people who really prize comfort above all else. I get it. What Sarah, and I'd say, by extension me, are trying to figure out is how popular can it get. So they've raised over a billion dollars in funding and they have evaluation right now of $5.5 billion. That is definitely possible to achieve, but it's not easy. They don't have footwear like Nike. They don't have a real point of view. They have become. They're almost. I'd say you might want to compare them to Gap rather than another sports brand. They're almost the basics of this, sans flair. The fashion statement is that there is no flair. Anyway, let's get going with the one and only Bella. I love her podcast. Please listen to it. It's really something. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the art world and much more. If you're interested listeners of Fashion People get a discount. Just go to Puck News Fashion People to join Puck or start a free trial.

[Friend 2]

Bella Freud, welcome to Fashion People.

[Bella Freud]

Thank you. It's lovely to be here.

[Friend 2]

What did you have for breakfast this morning?

[Bella Freud]

I have the same thing for breakfast every day, which I look forward to.

[Friend 3]

The same amount of pleasure.

[Bella Freud]

And I have black coffee with a piece of gluten free toast and marmalade and I love that breakfast more than anything.

[Friend 2]

That sounds perfect. Are you celiac or do you just prefer gluten free?

[Bella Freud]

I just prefer it. It suits me.

[Friend 2]

My husband is celiac. So we have a lot of gluten free. We've been on a long gluten free journey. It's a great gluten.

[Bella Freud]

Same here. It's not as bad as it used to be. It used to be like eating dust, but now it's more tasty.

[Friend 2]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

So I wanted to have you on.

[Friend 2]

The podcast because I've been listening to your podcast and, and am blown away. I love it so much. I don't listen to any other podcasts about fashion because it feels like homework for me. But I just am totally in love with it and I want to get into it, but I thought it would be interesting to hear. A lot of people who listen to this are going to be big Bella Freud fans, but there will be people who don't know a ton about you. And I kind of wanted to explain how you became a fashion person. So I thought we could start with, you know, your life and, and where I, I think you grew up in London. Where did you grow up? Like, how did you end up becoming a fashion designer?

[Friend 3]

I became a fashion designer. I went to fashion school in Rome.

[Bella Freud]

When I was in my early 20s and I didn't learn a lot there, but I, I used to go and visit tailors and shoemakers and there was a lot of artisans still from the old days in Rome. And I used to just hang around and sort of see what, what distinguished ready to wear from sort of made to measure and all the secret code of how a garment is constructed, how shoe is constructed and all the stuff, all the snobisms of the making of something. Like when you have a cuff button that opens and what that means and why it's special and lots of things to do with interlining, which is very boring for non fashion people. But when you're making things, how you.

[Friend 3]

Can enhance the way something's made and.

[Bella Freud]

How it lasts well, and how you can make things look particularly distinguished. And it's all to do with like the shoulder pad and the canvas and the. How something's. How the internals work. And I suppose that's made me interested in the whole subject of fashion, the internals of everything. And how people sort of have a fantasy and an idea about what they want people to wear and how, how they get into people's souls really to love what the offering is. So I learned a lot about that and all about the manufacture of things. Then after that I went back to London and I worked for Vivienne Westwood and I learned really a lot from her and how things worked really in Terms of making something and having a show and then selling it and the production, and that was in the late 80s.

[Friend 2]

What made you going back to Rome? What made you choose Rome versus going to. I don't know if St. Martin's was. I know, in the 90s, became the fashion school, but why did you. Why did you choose school in Rome in particular? Because there's so many different avenues you could have gone down.

[Friend 3]

I chose Rome because I was in.

[Bella Freud]

Love with someone who lived in Rome, so.

[Lauren Sherman]

Sounds nice.

[Bella Freud]

I moved there and I went to the school there. So that was the real reason.

[Friend 2]

Do you think that. That and the internals and the construction. I can see that in your work.

[Lauren Sherman]

To me, there's also something in your.

[Friend 2]

Work that even though it's not flashy, there's an opulence to it, like a subtle opulence. Do you think that that was influenced by that time there, or was that your natural aesthetic or way of expressing things?

[Friend 3]

Yeah, it was influenced by that.

[Bella Freud]

And I think I saw that when things were really well made, that people.

[Friend 3]

Seemed to shine more within it, that.

[Bella Freud]

It gave them a kind of extra. Like a fairy dust almost, that something's. I like the idea that you can wear a suit and that you can.

[Friend 3]

Be like a 19th century poet and you could see.

[Bella Freud]

Sleep in the. You know, along the side of the.

[Friend 3]

Road on your journey to somewhere.

[Bella Freud]

And you'll get up and dust it off and you'll still have a good edit. So the back, if something's made well and the fabric is good, you can kind of wear it until it falls to bits and it still has that elegance.

[Friend 2]

Yeah, it's a really great way to put it. What was it like working with Vivienne Westwood? What you just said sort of flows into her work as well.

[Friend 3]

Yeah, it was wonderful working for her.

[Bella Freud]

Because when I was a teenager, I worked in her shop, Seditionaries, and there.

[Friend 3]

Was nothing like it anywhere in the world.

[Bella Freud]

And I'd left school and I went and worked as a Saturday girl. And I just realized these clothes had.

[Friend 3]

So much power and influence, and if.

[Bella Freud]

You were wearing them, it bestowed some.

[Friend 3]

Of that on you.

[Bella Freud]

And I was the first time I really saw how. How important clothes were. If you didn't have much confidence, like, you know, young people sort of struggling with their own sort of evolving of identity and clothes could really give you this. This magic kind of, you know, this kind of garb of something that you didn't actually have within you, and then you could live in and find out how to. How to act in the world.

[Friend 2]

That shop, when you were there, did it feel like the center of the world?

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, it really did. I mean, it was really intimidating to come into. It had these grills on the front and I even remember one day sitting in there and seeing Debbie Harry walk.

[Friend 3]

Past and look in.

[Bella Freud]

And like I knew that she was thinking, oh God, I want to go in and I can't. I mean, I'm inventing that of course, but it took a certain courage to.

[Friend 3]

Walk into the shop.

[Bella Freud]

But once you were in, it was amazing.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's funny, I. Do you feel like it used to.

[Friend 2]

Be more intimidating to walk into shops than it is now, or do you think. Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

Why do you think that is?

[Bella Freud]

I think there wasn't this feeling of trying to sell things like there is now. Like there was so much need for people to buy what you have and you have to do so much to woo your customer. Whereas in those days there, there were these few places that people could go to. And if you had the courage to.

[Friend 3]

Go through the door, especially if you.

[Bella Freud]

Didn'T have much money, you would have to face down the snooty stairs of the staff who looked you up and down and thought that person doesn't have.

[Friend 3]

Any money to spend.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Friend 3]

You needed a kind of certain amount.

[Bella Freud]

Of confidence to face it out.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Friend 2]

I also wonder, and this is maybe more of an American thing, but the way people dress day to day now, where they'll like wear leggings and running gear into a fancy store with no problem. And also that, like you said, it's become more about selling. So it used to be that you'd walk in and maybe no one would say anything to you, and now everybody's like on you immediately and smiling and friendly and you don't, you don't want to have that like Pretty Woman experience. Like retailers don't want consumers to have.

[Lauren Sherman]

The Pretty Woman experience where, where no one will. Will help you.

[Friend 2]

But it has, I mean, it's, it's just how like so much retail theater is gone now. There, there aren't. It's not as much of an experience to go into most stores as it, as it used to be. It was so thrilling.

[Bella Freud]

I know, it really was. And you know, people would leave you alone a little bit more to kind of get familiar with what started to.

[Friend 3]

Call to you in the shop.

[Bella Freud]

And you don't really get that chance so much now. And sometimes it just makes you want to rush out because everyone's being over conciliatory and trying to interest you in something.

[Friend 2]

Yeah. How did you end up working there? Did you just. Were you friends with people who worked there? Were you kind of in that scene? How did you land the Saturday? Because I'm sure the Saturday. The Saturday slot was coveted because that's when the most people go in.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, I was friends with people who.

[Friend 3]

Worked there, and I was the youngest.

[Bella Freud]

Sort of in the scene. And then I remember when I managed.

[Friend 3]

To get the jog, and I was.

[Bella Freud]

In this club in. And Vivian was there, and I'd recently.

[Friend 3]

Cut my hair, which had been really.

[Bella Freud]

Long, and I'd cut it into a crop, and she gave me this look.

[Friend 3]

And said, oh, cut your hair. Okay.

[Bella Freud]

You know, and I thought, God, great. It's so exciting. And. And that's how I started. And I did that. I think I was 16 or something. 16 or 17. And then. Then after that, when I moved to Rome in my early 20s, when I was 22, Vivian had. She was working in Italy with one of those big manufacturers.

[Friend 2]

Yeah.

[Bella Freud]

And we hooked up and she used.

[Friend 3]

To come stay with me in Rome.

[Bella Freud]

And I was at design school feeling really embarrassed to sort of even pretend to be being a designer with. With her. But she was very. She was. She'd been a teacher, and she was very good at. I wouldn't say encouraging, because she wasn't really that type of person. But I remember I was making something, and she gave me some pointers, and I took that as a.

[Friend 3]

As an encouragement.

[Friend 2]

What did you learn from her when you went back and started working with her? But either things she taught you or just, like, observing her.

[Friend 3]

I mean, what I really learned was.

[Bella Freud]

Because everything she did was so unseen.

[Friend 3]

No one had ever done the things.

[Bella Freud]

That she was doing. So I learned to see an idea and have confidence and that it would work. Whereas sometimes she'd, you know, be proposing something or describing what she wanted to do. And I'd think, I don't really get this.

[Friend 3]

I don't understand.

[Bella Freud]

But after a while, I started to.

[Friend 3]

Wait for that moment when I would.

[Bella Freud]

Understand what she was doing. And my faith and belief in her was it was a really exciting time to see Be working on something that.

[Friend 3]

You just couldn't entirely envisage. And then when it came together, it.

[Bella Freud]

Was just this kind of magnificent sort of explosion of beauty, really. It was. And so she would ask me to go and find things, and I'd go and look for stuff. And I got kind of into going beyond what I thought was right and just being more. Trying to be more adventurous and more imagining that this thing that Maybe seemed to be nothing or hideous, actually had something to it. And I always remember she said, oh.

[Friend 3]

I want to do a leopard print.

[Bella Freud]

Can you go and look for some? I'm going down this market and the only one I could find was really ugly. And I just thought, okay, well, I'll.

[Friend 3]

Take back a cutting.

[Bella Freud]

And I took it back to her and she said, that's fantastic. And I thought, great. You know, I couldn't see that. And then she blew that up and it became a print and she used.

[Friend 3]

It in lots of things.

[Bella Freud]

And I've still got the shirt that she gave me from that show. And so I had this real, you know, trajectory of how it came into being and really took me to. Taught me to look further and see the possibility of him.

[Carvana Representative]

If you need three new reasons to love Jack wraps at Jack in the Box even more, here they are. Chicken fajita, chicken Caesar and delicious starting at $3. Coincidentally, those are the same three reasons you should come to Jack in the Box right now at Jack, every bite's a big deal.

[Lauren Sherman]

What was London fashion like at that time was.

[Friend 2]

It was everyone were all the different brands and the people worked at the different brands sort of mixing together and. And it feels like it was an incredibly transformative time for the industry and a lot of that was coming out of the. The brands that were based there.

[Friend 3]

Yeah, it was very.

[Bella Freud]

I mean, the thing about England at that time was the manufacturing was so limited and most of the factories were set up to work with high street brands and do repetitions and huge quantities. And so it was really hard to find people to work with who would develop things because, you know, people who started their own brands and their labels and it was more hand to mouth and. But as a result, things were much more inventive.

[Friend 3]

People had to literally make things themselves.

[Bella Freud]

Or the way things were constructed were not slick, not, you know, like in the 90s, we. Yeah, in the late 80s. She then had a manufacturer that backed her and there was just the polish of how things were produced was so different. And they had all this experience and brought all this kind of Italian elegance to her. Her kind of defying of what was on trend and that. That was just gorgeous. We were so proud. I remember people in London, we, you know, there was this obsession with wearing these things and feeling so full of swagger and like you were the best person on earth because you had a Vivienne Westwood jacket. And that was really a big deal. It was really moving in those days. It was great.

[Lauren Sherman]

What made you decide to Break out on your own.

[Friend 2]

And when did you do that? Did you work for anyone else or did you go straight to do your own thing from there?

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, I went straight. I worked for Vivian for about three years and then I, I just thought, I'll try doing something. You know, I had, I thought I'd start doing accessories. So I made these little bags and some shoes. And then I bumped into a knitwear.

[Friend 3]

This man who owned a knitwear factory in Scotland.

[Bella Freud]

He said, oh, if you want to make some knitwear, come up. And so drove to Scotland and worked in with one of those factories where they. We used to making V neck sweaters for Marks and Spencer. And they just hated what I was doing. It was such a pain in the ass. You know, I remember the factory manager saying, my wife's arm would never fit in that sleeve and thinking, well, it's not for her. This is for this coquette girl that.

[Friend 3]

I have in my head.

[Bella Freud]

But I learned a lot, you know, I learned how to get things done. And I think with fashion there are so many obstacles at every single turn. It's difficult to make something and you just have to go on and on and on and be obsessed. And for some reason I had that obsession. And I, I just went on and.

[Friend 3]

On and on until I got so.

[Bella Freud]

Something I like.

[Friend 2]

How have you stayed in it for so long?

[Lauren Sherman]

Because you don't.

[Friend 2]

The, the interesting thing, I think you mentioned this on the Jonathan Anderson interview, which I thought was. I mean, you're, you're very good at, at pulling things out of people and every person that you interview is so comfortable with you. And that helps, I think a lot as well. But I think on his or another one, you mentioned that at some point you just stopped doing fashion change shows. How have you been able to just keep moving forward and, and what have you done differently than maybe some of your peers or other people in the industry to be able to do that? Because you don't seem to be concerned with, as you just said about Vivian Westwood, following trends or, or any of that, or business trends even.

[Friend 3]

Yeah, it was partly just circumstances.

[Bella Freud]

I, and I think my main thing.

[Friend 3]

Was that I never stopped.

[Bella Freud]

Even when I had. There were times where I had no money at all, but I still made. I remember doing a collection. I'd really just made one sweater. Then I bumped into this journalist friend of mine and she said, oh, what.

[Friend 3]

Are you working on?

[Bella Freud]

And I said, I said, I've done a new collection.

[Friend 3]

It's just one piece. And it just came out.

[Bella Freud]

And I thought, yeah, okay. Instead of saying, oh, I've done nothing, I've got one sweater, I. In that moment, I decided that was a collection and it took me through to the next stage. It was like crossing a river and there being an enormous gap between one.

[Friend 3]

Stepping stone and the next.

[Bella Freud]

And I remember that that jumper was Ginsburg is God. And for some reason, I. When I started my label, I. I.

[Friend 3]

Made some short films.

[Bella Freud]

I just thought, oh, I'll do this. I had no idea how to make films. I didn't know anything about it, but I did it. And I like showing my work in, in a film because I felt like I could. Had more. I could mess about with the effect of it. And I did then do shows and things, and I didn't enjoy it nearly as much as some people. And then I decided to stop and started making some. I made three short films then with John Malkovich. I thought it would be so fun to, to have an idea and to collaborate through someone else's visual point of view of it and see what comes out. And so somebody introduced me to, to.

[Friend 3]

John Malkovich and said, he's really into fashion.

[Bella Freud]

And I went to Paris and met him. And first of all, he said, I just can't, you know, I don't have any time. And then we just carried on and on chatting, and then he suddenly said, okay, I'm gonna do it. I've got one and a half days next month. Be ready. And I. I was. And we just had such a great time.

[Lauren Sherman]

And that's.

[Bella Freud]

That was one of the phases and I thought, I'm just going to do the things I feel are my strengths and the things I've always loved and knitwear and tailoring. So my idea of a collection is always about knitted, the soft centre and then the accessory is almost the tailored piece. And so I've just refined my love of suit and I love the boyish girl way of dressing and I find that very feminine. And so I've just done that and I've never, never given up.

[Friend 2]

You mentioned the factory in Scotland. How is observing. Because you are a big knitwear designer, I'm sure that you've seen the trajectory of that industry. Do you still produce anything there? Feel like recently Scottish cashmere and also just knits generally have come back into the conversation quite a bit. And also just nits being, being made in that area of the world. Do you make anything there? And, and what has it been like as you. As your business has changed? What has it been like to observe how those businesses have changed and got. I'm sure some of them have gone away.

[Bella Freud]

And yeah, a lot of, A lot of the factories shrunk or closed down and then exactly as you described, this sort of shift happened. And then I think there were so.

[Friend 3]

Many more designers and then the high.

[Bella Freud]

Street became interested in design. Instead of copying people, they employed designers. So the whole quality of what they were producing was much better, more interesting. And then it was possible to start doing certain things with Scottish mills and it depends on what kind of machinery they have. Like then people are very, you know.

[Friend 3]

Dismissive about things made in China.

[Bella Freud]

But there's a whole world of, of hand, not handmade, but hand laid machines that they still have in China. And these people were really expert at, especially for my stuff where I use a lot of words on my knits. And in Scotland they don't have those machines and if they do, it costs a fortune. Whereas in China you have these really skilled people.

[Friend 3]

And a lot of it's also to do with like building relationships.

[Bella Freud]

And I, I met this agent who they were just so helpful and facilitating, you know, how to make something and how to make it feel good and finish and a lot to do with those friendships with certain people that I work with there. And you start to know each other and they know what you like and you ask if you can try this. And you know, it's like working. When I first started working in Italy, how there was this eagerness and this interest in, in producing something that was.

[Friend 3]

Difficult and how to figure that out.

[Bella Freud]

And that's beginning to revive in the UK now where there's the kind of this meeting of wanting to help each other instead of everyone. Used to be if you say you were a designer of someone's fate, they'd.

[Friend 3]

Be like, oh God, designers are a.

[Bella Freud]

Nightmare because we always want it to be better or different or can you do this or make it like that? And that's improved a lot here. The kind of. I think people, the manufacturing industry can see more watts, that there's a real.

[Friend 3]

Good relationship to be had with designers.

[Bella Freud]

And how we can all benefit from a little more flexibility.

[Friend 2]

What is the most popular jumper you've ever done? Is it the 1971 or.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, it's that still.

[Friend 2]

Why do you think that's been so just. It feels eternal now.

[Bella Freud]

It's funny, I think there's something about it that it suits a lot of people and it's. Even if someone doesn't really think about that, I mean the date is just something I.

[Friend 3]

It was a random thing it was.

[Bella Freud]

Just the date in the corner of a catalog that I was looking through. And then even for people who were born, you know, in 2000s or whatever, it has an association that they don't necessarily know what it is, but it feels like it relates to something. And I think it. For me, I feel like it. I get a lot of ideas from, like, record sleeves and album covers and T shirts and protest posters and things people carry in a protest or that they wear on a march so that they're very instant. And I think it has something about that, too. And the. The white stripe, it. It's flattering to the face. And. And I've also been quite. I mean, I do variations, and I do use it on various things, but not on everything. I feel quite protective of it. So, first of all, I only did a black jumper, and I really didn't.

[Friend 3]

Ever want to do anything more than.

[Bella Freud]

A black jumper with this white stripe. And my sales agent said, please, can we. Can we just have one color? That is, how many black jumpers can someone buy? And I. Okay, I understand it. But each time I do a different color or a different type of yarn, it feels very thoughtful. I'm very careful, and I hope that that runs through. And even though I have a selection, it's not everywhere. It's still a precious thing.

[Friend 2]

It feels very collectible. And. And I'm sure there are people who have every single one or. Or they have this. This edition or that edition. And it definitely feels special. I mean, all. All of your work does. I love the jumper you're wearing right now. It's really great. It's. It's green and black stripe with, like, a little mock neck. It's really good.

[Bella Freud]

Oh, yeah, I've got another sweater.

[Friend 2]

Oh, you do? Oh, yeah, it looks.

[Bella Freud]

This is a mohair sweater, so I love mohair as well. That's a sort of throwback from the punk days when people love mohair, but.

[Friend 2]

Reminds me of Kirk cooking.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[Friend 2]

So tell me about the podcast and why you decided to do it and the concept, because you have a very famous last name, and you're interviewing people as if you're in a therapy session, and the person's lying on the couch, which I love. I wonder if it changes the way they speak because they're lying back the way you have the microphone pointed towards them, but tell me about it.

[Bella Freud]

Well, I've been thinking for years about how to write about what happens in the fashion world and all the things that happen backstage and behind the scenes and the. The getting an idea to be its own thing and to exist in a garment. And I. And there's so much fun in there and people are so funny and that there's all these kind of shortcuts and codes in the language and, and all this intimacy and, and I wanted to find a way to describe it somehow and then where. And I'd always wanted to. I started off thinking of that I wanted to do a chat show, but I, I wanted it to be almost like I'd seen these videos of Allen.

[Friend 3]

Ginsberg at the Albert hall in the.

[Bella Freud]

60S, and there was just this granular feeling about it that made you want to know more, to be able to hear with the bad sound and just.

[Friend 3]

To find out what are they talking about. And also some of the poems you.

[Bella Freud]

Just think, I don't know, is that really deep and meaningful or, or, or is it rubbish? And there is an aspect of fashion which is a bit like that. But in the end, the, the clothes themselves have to be, you know, totally convincing. And with the couch, I, I was thinking. And when I was first sort of.

[Friend 3]

Messing about doing little setups and stuff.

[Bella Freud]

I thought, okay, if someone lies on.

[Friend 3]

The couch and I'm in the chair.

[Bella Freud]

People will recognize it. Hoping that fashion neurosis maybe would take.

[Friend 3]

Off and I could like travel around.

[Bella Freud]

The world interviewing people.

[Friend 3]

So I thought, okay, this is my prop.

[Bella Freud]

And obviously it's a kind of tongue in cheek play on the sort of situation of lying on the couch with a psychoanalyst.

[Friend 2]

And do you want to briefly explain your background so I don't have to do an expository at the top, like who your family is and why the, the analyst couch makes so much sense?

[Bella Freud]

Well, yeah, my, my great grandfather was Sigmund Freud and, and then my father, who was the person I was looking to, for all my kind of influence, he was a painter, Buen Freud. And he never really talked about Sigmund Freud at all. And once I asked him about him.

[Friend 3]

And he said he was very funny.

[Bella Freud]

So I thought, great. You know, I like the idea of that. And I have to confess, I haven't actually read.

[Friend 3]

I've read half of Interpretation of Dreams.

[Bella Freud]

And then the things I've read about him, I read a comic book, a graphic novel, and that was great. And I sort of got the measure. And I also thought, someone's going to do this, so I'll do it. And then I find that something does seem to happen when people lie on the couch. People do seem open to just talking. And, and I also wanted to have this overhead camera. So it felt like you're looking into their thought process and the fact that.

[Friend 3]

When someone's lying down and they're looking.

[Bella Freud]

Up, they're not looking at me. So there's not. They're not trying to figure out what.

[Friend 3]

I'm going to say or whether the conversation's over.

[Bella Freud]

It was something Jonathan Anderson said to me. He said, it's interesting because I'm. Because I can't see your eyes or your lips. I can't do the thing that normally happens in a conversation where you stop or you just wait for the other person. And I find I'm listening carefully and to. When I say something or maybe I might interrupt someone occasionally, but some mysterious thing seems to happen that makes for a very kind of close conversation.

[Friend 3]

And I find I say things as.

[Bella Freud]

Well that I didn't necessarily anticipate I'd say, but because, you know, I have questions that I prepare. But I also like to see where.

[Friend 3]

We can go within those questions. And sometimes I don't ask all the.

[Bella Freud]

Questions or they'll start saying something that I was already going to ask them about. And we go on a bit of a tangent, and it's exciting.

[Friend 2]

What has guided who you end up having on? Because you've had a lot of designers on. I haven't listened to the Rick Owens one yet. I've listened to Zadie Smith, Jonathan, Kristen, Scott Thomas, which was truly amazing. And I love listening to you two talk about film and fashion, inspiration and cinema and also how she works with the costume designers and all that. But it's a mix of people. It seems like a lot of people that you have relationships with, but you have had quite a few designers. They seem very open because you're a peer. But what, what is driving the people that you're choosing to. To bring on?

[Bella Freud]

Well, I want to have a.

[Friend 3]

A real variety.

[Bella Freud]

I want. I want there to be a shape in the podcast that is a kind of unexpectedness of someone you may not.

[Friend 3]

Imagine you'd find interesting.

[Bella Freud]

But everyone I asked to be, you know, to, to come on the show is someone I feel that I could have an interesting conversation with that I don't necessarily know what it's going to. How it's going to be like that. But it's a real gut feeling and a feeling in my heart of I'm.

[Friend 3]

Fascinated by this person.

[Bella Freud]

And I feel that there is something that could take place if we could have. We could talk and there are things we might share in common or maybe not. Like when I was talking to the.

[Friend 3]

Writer Carl of a Knife Garden.

[Bella Freud]

I just was so moved and compelled by his writing. And also, you know, when his books came out and there was this picture of this amazing man, so handsome and this. It's always quite exciting for us in the fashion business when someone's incredibly brilliant artistically and they look amazing. So that's really fun.

[Lauren Sherman]

I have, I have really enjoyed the.

[Friend 2]

Fact that you talk a lot about whether or not people are good looking in the.

[Bella Freud]

I know, I love it.

[Friend 2]

You're. You're always asking what people find attractive, what they don't. And it's something that I think now people really stay away from that, like observing beauty or attractiveness because there's so much. People are just nervous to say anything about someone's physicality. But like, we're human beings and there are people you find attractive and there. I don't know, I've really enjoyed that part of it because I talk about it all the time and I agree.

[Bella Freud]

Well, the thing is, it's so. It's all these strands within you that bond with other people. And it's not just whether they're pretty. It's so much more than that, but it is about being attracted to people for all sorts of reasons. And that's such an interesting thing. And it's so thrilling when you get on with someone. And there are all these factors. And I think people in fashion, we understand that on a deeper level that it's not about someone being, you know, like whatever, you know, just like classically good looking. It's. We really love the inner beauty and we want to dress that.

[Friend 3]

And that how that shows up in somebody is fascinating. And it's not about perfection.

[Bella Freud]

It's the. It's not at all about that because it's. I think designers in particular were so aware of.

[Friend 3]

We're sort of like so conscious of our own imperfections.

[Bella Freud]

And we like. Jonathan talked about that and Rick Owens is so. He's just. The way he talks about his own body is just so. It's just so moving. And you know, when you are kind of growing up and you have all these concerns about yourself, I mean, that's never going away and how you can use clothes and friendship as well as part of the. How you make yourself feel safe and confident. But if you don't want to be anonymous, how do you.

[Friend 3]

How do you attract attention to yourself?

[Bella Freud]

When you're an introvert, you still want.

[Friend 3]

People to know you and notice that.

[Bella Freud]

You have something to give. So it's all that kind of stuff. Which. And it's been a little bit reduced into, you know, it's like.

[Friend 3]

Somehow it's.

[Bella Freud]

Not respectful to say something nice about how you are affected by someone. And I think there are trends for all that stuff.

[Friend 3]

And it also is an alert to.

[Bella Freud]

How to be respectful to people and still validate them.

[Lauren Sherman]

That's interesting.

[Friend 2]

I do think that there is a movement towards accepting that people are very complex and that not everything's binary. No one is all good or all bad. And you could say it's like woke, anti woke, whatever. Now it's sort of everyone lives in the gray area and there are more people sort of digging into that. And it feels like, I mean, what you do as a designer, you can see complexity in what you do, even if it's a simple jacket or sweater. And that idea we were talking about of the what's underneath and that's what makes it feel worth it, worthy. My final question for you would be, when you look at the fashion industry and observe it, you obviously are very. It's interesting. Isaac Mizrahi just did an interview with. On the Harper's Bazaar podcast about shopping, but he mentioned Jonathan and he said he didn't even know his name. He said that designer from Loewe. I just, I love him. But it was interesting because I feel like I think Jonathan in his generation is singular and it's so fun to write about him and cover all the businesses that he has created. But as someone who you've been in the industry, but you clearly are aware of what else is going on. What do you think fashion is right now? There's so many brands that. That have become like extremely generic and don't have that. I'm like rubbing my fingers together. That extra layer of integrity that you have as a designer, do you think that the industry's moving back to that or do you think it's always going to be this mix of hyper commerciality and then people who are trying to push things forward and bring ideas to it?

[Bella Freud]

I mean, I think it'll always be like that. But there seems to be more openness to ideas that young, really young people are craving ideas. They don't just want a look.

[Carvana Representative]

They.

[Bella Freud]

Want things within that they want to read, they want to understand older people, they want. They don't seem. I mean, there's always trends for this stuff. But I suppose in the 80s when people in fashion, that was a tiny group of people and people were mocked, you know, people, everyone was very derisory about fashiony people. Either they were very rich and you know, you never really saw them on the street, but you'd see these people who are dressing up in this amazing way and, and there was a much less acceptance of them and that kind of, it was hard won. And so that generation and now the older generation and when we look at young people like wearing all, all sorts of different things or wild stuff staff, it's, or even like really old people.

[Friend 3]

Just dressing up to the nines.

[Bella Freud]

I, when I see people out and about, we've made an effort, I just think, great, you know, it's so lovely, it's so beautiful to see and it's really tender. And I think, I think it's a way of like, I think now things are seem very bleak in the world and it's a time when kind of clothing and ideas and music and everything that gives you the next thought is very, very sort of essential. That feels almost like desperately important. And that is an interesting time.

[Lauren Sherman]

Bella, thank you for being here.

[Friend 3]

Thank you so much.

[Lauren Sherman]

Lamba, when does season two of the podcast launch?

[Friend 3]

Season two launches in the middle of.

[Friend 2]

January, so by the time you all listen to this, we'll try to time it exactly to the launch of the first episode of the second season of Fashion Neurosis.

[Lauren Sherman]

Thank you again.

[Friend 2]

This was such a pleasure. I wish we could talk for another two hours, but maybe another time.

[Bella Freud]

I hope so. Thanks. Thanks, Lauren. It's wonderful.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's so great to meet you here.

[Bella Freud]

Thank you.

[Lauren Sherman]

Hey, my fashion people, before I let you go, I wanted to recommend another Puck podcast called the Grill Room. It's hosted by our media guy, Dylan Byers, and the Grill Room is for media junkies, starring media junkies. And it's made by a media junkie. I know many of you love following Dylan's work on everything from CNN to the Washington Post Post. So be sure to check out the Grow Room wherever you get your podcasts. Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob Tabador.