Gabby Grossman (3:01)

you know, I know a decent amount about her, but she's incredibly influential. And the business from my Reporting is about 35 million dollars. It could be 350 million. Many of these investors believe so one to watch, but I hope you enjoy it. On Wednesday, Rachel had a great deep dive on Sephora. And on Friday, Sarah Shapiro is looking at what people are actually buying in stores right now. It's kind of hard to tell. So please check that out and enjoy this interview with Charlotte. It's a really nice sort of prep for the fashion week that is to come, which is Paris. She'll be showing her new collection, I think. But more importantly, she's very French and talks about being a business owner in France and all that stuff. And it's fascinating. Enjoy.

Lauren Sherman (3:54)

Charlotte Cheney, welcome to Fashion People.

Charlotte Cheney (3:57)

Hello. Hi. Nice to see you everyone. I'm so happy you're here.

Lauren Sherman (4:00)

So what'd you have for breakfast this morning?

Charlotte Cheney (4:03)

Like regular breakfast? A soft boiled egg. Oh, like grill. How do you say in English? Sorcerer bread?

Lauren Sherman (4:14)

Sourdough bread.

Charlotte Cheney (4:14)

Sourdough bread, exactly.

Lauren Sherman (4:16)

Yeah.

Charlotte Cheney (4:16)

Perfect. A piece of ham.

Lauren Sherman (4:19)

That sounds delicious.

Charlotte Cheney (4:20)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love breakfast.

Lauren Sherman (4:23)

Oh, me too. That's that savory breakfast is the way to go for sure. So Charlotte, we were talking a little bit offline about your sort of life from real life to work and you work in the first. Tell us a bit about what you do.

Charlotte Cheney (4:43)

So I'm a designer. I have a jewelry brand that I launched 10 years ago, almost 11 actually 2015 and still working for other brand as a regular designer. So regular. I don't know if it's really mean anything but I'm working on like also like ready to wear line, shoe line, bag line, and recently also working on home interior collection for another brand. So yeah, let's say that my main job is working on my jewelry line and I also design other pieces for other brands on the side.

Lauren Sherman (5:15)

So how did you end up becoming a jewelry designer? Did you go to school for that? Did you go to school for.

Charlotte Cheney (5:23)

I went to school for fashion, although it was quite a quick, I would say like apprentice because I just said like it's a small school that called Studio Berceau and it's closed since. But after Studio Berthoud, staying there for two years In Paris. I started to work almost immediately after at Balenciaga with Nicolas Ghesquier. And I stayed there as a designer for almost, almost 10 years. I stopped before, just after he quit. So nine years and few months.

Lauren Sherman (5:56)

Were you working on Ready to Wear there or.

Charlotte Cheney (5:59)

Yes, I was working on Ready to Wear because I come from a more ready to wear school. And I started there also working on jewelry quite randomly. But now that I look at it, maybe was not so random. But basically Nicola asked me to work on collection for jewelry because he wanted jewelry for a show and nobody was doing it at that time. So he was like, oh, you want to do you want to explore jewelry? And I was like, yeah, sure. And this is how I started, so having no clue about how you do jewelry, how you work on it. So. But the way we were working at Nicolas studio was very, like, almost from scratch every season, trying to learn about the technique, about the fabric, about the material. So spending a lot of time in like, Craftsman place. And this is where I learn a lot of how to make jewelry.

Lauren Sherman (6:44)

I'm so glad that you mentioned Nicola, because I always thought it was ghesgier and not guessquierre. But all Americans say guess guerre.

Charlotte Cheney (6:52)

Yeah, no, no, no. I mean, he said ghesquierre, but it's true that French wise, you could say guessquierre as well.

Lauren Sherman (6:59)

You could say it well. But, you know, Del Arnault has said it when I remember interviewing her, and she also says jesk. So I am gonna go with what you just said, but what was it like working there at that time? Because I've been thinking about those collections a lot. They're very much in the air, fashion wise. And even the new Chloe campaign, there's this shot of all the girls wearing floral dresses that feels very his era of Balenciaga. I remember I had a, like, knockoff dress of the dresses that he did. And I have like a couple pieces that I got at sample sales and things like that. But it feels so. It just feels so right right now. But it was so influential on everything.

Charlotte Cheney (7:50)

It was a dream to work there. It was really hard. Lot of commitment, lot of sacrifice. But super happy I did it. And I learned so much and so rich and so impactful on who I am today. So, yeah, it was terrific. Like, we had to learn basically from one season to another. We had to relearn everything because Nicolas was not, I wouldn't say he was bored quickly, but he really loved to go from one, I don't know, story for a season to a totally different one the season after, using different technique, different material, different silhouettes. And also, the way we worked on the collection was quite unusual because we didn't really work on clothes, we work on silhouettes. So immediately from the first fitting, six months before the show, we were already trying on this jacket with this skirt, and immediately it was going to be this look until the end. Of course, sometimes it changed, but it was not like sometimes. Like most of the fashion house today, they work on different clothes, and then before the show, they do the styling session, and poof, the silhouette arrived. With Nicolas, it was totally different. So the process and also the way to look at fashion was very different because he really had in mind a full silhouette from almost. From the beginning. Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (9:11)

It's interesting because I wonder if that's why it was so influential, because of the fact that, like, that's what I remember. Even his first Louis Vuitton show, the same thing. It was like a little skirt. And that skirt proliferated everywhere. But it was so. It was also the era that the high street and Zara and H and M had become really important. And it was just like every single thing that Balenciaga did, it was somehow dictating what everyone was wearing day to day. And I don't think that really happens anymore.

Gabby Grossman (9:47)

Like that.

Charlotte Cheney (9:48)

Yeah, no, I think different for sure today. And there is so many. So many more brands today. Like, yeah, fashion. Not high fashion, but I mean, at that time, probably it was more curated and we didn't have Instagram and everything as well, so we. We didn't have so many image from all over the world. It was more. The message was maybe more focus, in a way. And it's true that his show specifically were really. I don't know how you say in English, but everybody was waiting for it.

Lauren Sherman (10:21)

Yeah, yo. Yeah. I mean, it was most anticipated, but it was just. Yeah, it's so different now because everybody. Everyone has their own little corner of the Internet, and so you don't feel that same. Sometimes it happens, but it's less and less and less now. I've been thinking about it a lot in the context of the kind of Gucci relaunch, which I'm very excited about, but it's just never gonna be like Alessandro at Gucci, the way that that, like, changed the whole world. That just doesn't happen. And I think the closest right now is Chanel, and I saw that a lot on the runways or Aliyah previously in New York. I always like what's happening in New York, and I could feel the last few seasons, I've definitely felt the Alaia presence. This season, I felt the Chanel. Like they took something from those shows and just like, there's a new feeling in the air, but it's not as dictatorial as it once was.

Charlotte Cheney (11:24)

Yeah, yeah, I see what you mean.

Lauren Sherman (11:27)

So when you launched your brand, what was your sort of idea around it? Because it was really focused on silver to start, correct?

Charlotte Cheney (11:36)

Yeah, it was like silver and vermeil, which is still dipped in gold. Yeah. I mean, the idea was it was a very personal, creative project. I didn't really had any idea of business or this becoming a business. I remember at that time I was doing a lot of freelance designer projects, basically focused on Ready to Wear. I was missing doing jewelry, complaining that I was not doing jewelry. So my friend were like, well, just do your own brand. Stop complaining. And it was like, oh, yeah, why not starting it. And at that time, I did an audition for a job of a jewelry designer at Dior that I didn't had. But for this job, I prepared, I trained, I did, I did a book and I worked on the packaging and fake campaign and everything. And then because I didn't got the job, I was like, oh, I mean, the premise of a brand is already here because I had like a collection that was done for, you know, for this job, and I had like some fake eagerly. And I was like, maybe it's, you know, a good starting point on having my own brand. But once again, more on a very like, what do I want to say in jewelry? I have to express myself and it's going to be with this medium. So, yeah, we launched the brand. I mean, I launched the brand by myself at the beginning. And then it came, really, the welcoming was so warm. The press was super, super supportive. The buyers were quite super sweet as well. Very early in the. In the story of the brand. So it became a business quite quickly without even like trying to do a business.

Lauren Sherman (13:11)

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because I remember when it launched and I was so excited because there isn't it. It looks like nothing else and there isn't a lot of jewelry for. There for women who like sculptural or it's not minimalist, but there, it's just like your aesthetic. There isn't. There's nothing like it. And it also just appeals to a very certain type of woman. And also the price was. Was good. It's not. The prices aren't crazy. It feels really sophisticated, but it's also playful. And were you. Were you into Sculpture when you were younger, like did you practice sculpture?

Gabby Grossman (13:58)

It's so sculptural.

Charlotte Cheney (14:00)

Yes, I was into design more sculptures, but I was into design before being into fashion, like being younger. And it's true that when I started jewelry at Balenciaga, I felt that jewelry was so close to of course fashion, but also very close to design. Regarding. I don't know, I. I don't know. I find beauty very early in a spoon or in a teapot or you know. So I was like, oh, actually a jewelry can also have this like triple aspect of being an object when it's not worn, when it's on a table. So I really, really love this 3D aspect of the object. And because I couldn't sketch properly my ideas, I started to mold it. So this is how I guess the DNA of the brand was anchored and was born. It's because I was doing in 3D what I couldn't sketch properly.

Lauren Sherman (14:55)

Yeah, that's cool. I think what the result was that like it truly looked like nothing else. But it was also so fit into the sort of way women were dressing at the time and has evolved with that as well. When you started with silver and the gold dipped silver, why did you do that? Why not do platinum or do you

Gabby Grossman (15:21)

know

Lauren Sherman (15:24)

I didn't want solid gold.

Charlotte Cheney (15:25)

Yeah. So I didn't want to do like brass because that was coming from fashion. And this project was something different to me. I wanted something very timeless. Not to do so many style. I really wanted like classical in a way pieces, like new classical pieces. So I thought it really deserved a noble material. So this is why I didn't go to brass. Of course I thought about gold but very quickly I realized I couldn't afford it because I was totally self financial at that time. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, I'm super happy also to do like silver and vermeil because I can wear it, my friend can buy it, my mother can buy it. You know, it was about like I wanted to see these pieces on actual people and it was super important for me.

Lauren Sherman (16:09)

Can you explain a bit how the jewelry industry works? Because you mentioned you couldn't afford it because it. You didn't have a. And you were self funded. It's extremely expensive to even make one collection of fine jewelry. Right. So can you talk about like how, how it's sold differently than ready to wear.

Charlotte Cheney (16:31)

Basically you have three category if you want to be like you have like custom jewelry, fashion jewelry, most of them, they are in brass or even different material but not noble material. So they can use resin, they can use like crystal. Most of them they're in br. So anything you will find almost in any fashion brand you will be in brass or you know, cousin of the brass. Then you go into like higher level I would say, which is like silver. So silver I don't know in America, but the lazy. The law in France is considering silver as a precious material. So there's a mark on it, there's a, you know, you follow it. There is rule and everything. Of course, silver, you can dip it in gold with a coat of 5 micron of gold. 18 karat gold. In France we call it vermeil. In America you don't really have the equivalent because you, you don't have a classification for this. It also exists, but I don't think you have this, this name vermeil. That is a very French appellation. And then you go into gold. Gold, you have several level of gold. You have 9 cara, 14 carat, 18 carat, 24 karat in France. In Europe, all the Place Vendome brands, they use 18 karat gold. We don't really use nine or 14 here in Europe barely. Which is something you find more a bit in Asia and in America. But the classical fine jewelry brands, most of them, they are in 18 karat. The main difference if I want to, I don't know exactly the, the price of a kilogram of brass, but it's quite low. Today the price of a kilogram of silver is reaching 3,000 Euro. Just to give you an idea, it was only above a thousand euros six months ago.

Lauren Sherman (18:29)

Oh my God.

Charlotte Cheney (18:30)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lauren Sherman (18:31)

Why did, why has silver gone up so much?

Charlotte Cheney (18:34)

Different reason. The main reason is not, is not linked to the crisis we are living now. It's mainly due to like the, the use of silver in many, like battery for electric cars for example. Oh wow.

Lauren Sherman (18:49)

So the demand has increased, but in different ways than for jewelry.

Charlotte Cheney (18:55)

Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (18:56)

Wow.

Charlotte Cheney (18:57)

So basically silver is still affordable, but still has triple in six months. And then you go to gold. So gold, uh, when I started my brand you could buy. So 10 years ago you could buy a kilo of gold. Sorry I speak in kilo, but you

Lauren Sherman (19:12)

could buy a kilo. No, that's fine. Whatever it's people can figure it out.

Charlotte Cheney (19:16)

30,000 Euro.

Lauren Sherman (19:18)

Uh huh.

Charlotte Cheney (19:20)

Then in July six months ago, more, more than six months ago, you buy a kilo of gold, 90,000 Euro. So triple. But triple in 10 years, but still triple. Yes. And then today in six months due to like the world we live in now, we almost reach almost €140,000 kilo in less than six months. Wow. Yes. So nightmare. It's a nightmare.

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Lauren Sherman (20:58)

Let's rewind back to that beginning. And you had a lot of interest from buyers immediately. I know fine jewelry, they tend to do, it's based on. You operate a consignment, right? So you make everything, you pay for everything. You send it to them, it sits in the store, they take a commission if you sell it. Was your other jewelry when you started, that was vermeil and silver. Were you on consignment for that as well, or. No, that was a wholesale operation?

Charlotte Cheney (21:34)

Yeah, a simple wholesale business. And I, I couldn't afford being on consignment because basically consignment, you, you explain, but you, you sell the goods to the, to the sellers and when they sell it, you get paid. So if, let's say you produce and you ship three months later, and then it's getting sold six months later, it means for nine months you don't get paid. So this, it's an exercise that people can do. But at that time I couldn't do it because I didn't have the money. Yeah, everything was based on like, wholesale business. So you sell and then they sell, they resell. But yeah, and it really helped my company to grow because people really, really play the game. And yeah, wholesaler were buying and then I could launch my production. And I don't have this, you know, financial like, fluid to deal with regarding fine jewelry business. It's a different way because, of course it's much more expensive and it's a very, it's a Cash consumer. So yeah, most, some, I would say really depends on your connection with the wholesaler and your. Also your track record. But basically, usually they're like, yeah, we love the collection, we'd love to have it. We want like, I don't know, 25 pieces of this and 10 of this and da, da, da. Oh, by the way, we are on a consignment term. So it means I put all the money in it, I invest my money in it, I produce, I send the pieces and eventually when you sell, I get paid. But this is a rule. It's not a, it's not the only rule. It's, it's, it's usual. It happens quite a lot.

Gabby Grossman (23:17)

Yeah.

Charlotte Cheney (23:17)

And you, you decide to play the game or you don't decide to play the game.

Lauren Sherman (23:22)

It makes the barrier for entry in this market higher than in fashion super difficult.

Charlotte Cheney (23:28)

This is why I waited 10 years to launch Fine jewelry as well.

Lauren Sherman (23:32)

And, and so when you started and you got such amazing feedback, what. Why do you think it hit so quickly? Because I remember when it launched and it was just like everybody wanted it immediately, like the rings and the earrings and it was. I feel like maybe it was sold at Dover street in the US and I. It was just like immediately desirable.

Charlotte Cheney (23:58)

You know, I think, I think the things that really put the light on the, on the project was also the fact that press was very curious about what the Ex Balenciaga studio were actually doing today. So of course it helps a lot. I remember the first article in the style.com.

Lauren Sherman (24:17)

do you remember who wrote it?

Charlotte Cheney (24:19)

I. I don't. Oh my God. I should. But I don't remember. But I remember being on the first page, like, which I swear, because it was basically like every morning I was checking style.com and then I was on the first page and the title was like something like, oh, what X. Like jewelry designer from Balenciaga, Nicolas J. Is doing now.

Lauren Sherman (24:37)

Yeah.

Charlotte Cheney (24:37)

So for sure it helps a lot. And then regarding the, the, the desire of like, the what the pieces, like express. I told. I mean, it's such a personal project that I really wanted these pieces to be. I don't know, they come from, from my brand and I, I try them on so much and I love them so much, I really want to wear them myself. So I guess this is why maybe it's. It worked like this. I'm not a jewelry lover originally. I don't collect like vintage jewelry. Of course I like it. But before launching my brand, I was not wearing so many jewelry and I became part of myself, like another piece of clothes in the end. And it's not that I have so many girls that contact me, and they say, like, I never wore jewelry before, or I'm not a jewelry girl, but with you, I want to have it, I want to wear it. And I can't explain this, but I

Lauren Sherman (25:34)

think there's just not a lot on the market. As someone who I feel that way. I have very few, few pieces, and there's just not a lot on the market that feels especially new stuff that feels like my style. There's a few brands that I really connect with, including yours, but generally it's either like, a little cheesy or a little too feminine or it doesn't feel original. And. And it's not. I don't know if we were sort of trained. I think now this generation is buying more jewelry. But I also think. Curious what you think. I've written a lot about this sort of unbranded jewelry market versus the big brands and comparing it to fashion. Why are the big brands in jewelry so powerful? And do they make it harder for independent brands to sort of grow and become home? You know, brand names.

Charlotte Cheney (26:47)

I see. I mean, to answer in a different way to your question, yes, it's hard, and I'm not even thinking about competing with them because we don't even play in the same courtyard.

Gabby Grossman (27:00)

Yeah.

Charlotte Cheney (27:01)

I think to the jewelry, I really think it has a very, very lot of similarity with, like, car business. It's. It's a sign of richness of who you belong to. Are you, like, the blue box at Tiffany? Are you the red box at Cartier? Do you have the love bracelet? Do you have this watch? Like, what does it say about you? It's. It's really about. It's a social status to me. Like, maybe in fashion, you can have this with a bag.

Lauren Sherman (27:37)

Yeah.

Charlotte Cheney (27:38)

But it's really like, okay, you have. What car? What kind of car do you have? You have a family car. You have a coupe. You have a break, you know, And I really feel like I'm talking for the big, big, big brand of jewelry today, which are like Cartier, Tiffany, Boucheron. They are like, I don't know, less than 10. They compete to. I mean, the way I see is that it's really about. Yeah. That the bracelet that cost like, 5k and you can find it in any different brand. And it says about you, like, you're gonna have one with diamond, with no diamond. Of course, we all think about the love, for example. Yeah. So it's really more about who you belongs to. Like community less than I believe a missional buy. Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (28:29)

And it also feels like because of the prices of the raw materials that like there's also a thing where the luxury consumer believes that it's an investment versus buying a handbag that's not Hermes or Chanel, that will go down in price. Whereas like a piece of fine jewelry,

Charlotte Cheney (28:53)

they think, yeah, it is an investment. You can, you can re. Re melt. You can redo with gold and diamonds, for example, forever. There's not like, I don't know, five time or six times that you can melt a ring, a gold ring, you can really remelt it forever, which you cannot do. You cannot do it with any bag. I mean, I'm sorry but even a Chanel bag you cannot like sell just the closure by itself. In five years, it costs nothing.

Gabby Grossman (29:22)

Yeah.

Charlotte Cheney (29:22)

We cannot just sell the chain which you can do with a piece of jewelry. You can, you can just take back the diamond and just do another setting. You can just like sell the gold that everyone is doing now. For example, a lot of people who have gold or silver in their, you know, when they need money, you actually can resell it super easily. So it's true that it's kind of, I mean it's the only piece of goods I think that you can buy and then resell and then redo forever. You don't with any other kind of object.

Gabby Grossman (29:56)

No.

Lauren Sherman (29:57)

What do you think about the change in the value of diamonds given the. Do you use any of the man made diamonds?

Charlotte Cheney (30:06)

I don't. I only use it when I do like prototype because then it's allowing me to have a nice, you know, a nice final view without buying immediately the diamonds. So this is where I'm using it. Otherwise we don't. But we have personal like private project and people sometimes they ask for lab and I. So I have a, I have contact and I can sell Lab. The way I see lab today is a bit like, you know, if you are vegan and you go in a really nice restaurant, I guess a good chef can provide a very nice vegan menu for you. So I see it a bit like this. Like I'm not pro or against my, my religion will lead me more to like natural diamonds. Yeah. But if I have a customer who really want a project with lab, I can do it.

Lauren Sherman (30:58)

Yeah.

Charlotte Cheney (30:58)

I have wait for, you know, special order and everything.

Lauren Sherman (31:01)

Yeah. It's so interesting because the value of diamonds is such a kind of construct anyway.

Gabby Grossman (31:07)

So.

Charlotte Cheney (31:09)

Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (31:09)

Yes, yes. So like. But there is something that Just I'm all I'm drawn to natural and and feel like I if I'm gonna spend, I would like it to be the quote unquote real thing. Even though I know that there's no difference.

Charlotte Cheney (31:27)

Of course, the end we the diamond is selling a piece of dream.

Lauren Sherman (31:31)

Yeah.

Charlotte Cheney (31:32)

It's being a piece of, I don't know, like a piece of star from the sky. It's a piece of dream that you can wear at your finger or at your ear. If you know it's coming from a lab, where is the dream? So of course in the end everything is marketing because we know that the molecule is the same, but it's just a story you buy. And in the end, I mean, even if it's regarding a diamond that doesn't belong to any brand, but it's when you buy to a brand, you also buy the story that the brand is telling you.

Lauren Sherman (31:59)

Yeah.

Charlotte Cheney (32:00)

And it's the same for diamond and not Diamond Lab and not Lab Diamond. To me, it's like what is it giving you as an emotion? It's about emotion and what you feel about the project. Some people are totally cold about it and they don't care and they just want something sparkle with the good shininess and then they will go for lab and it's fine. Or some people will go for more like ecological reason, of course. But in the end, it's really about what you feel and what the emotion, what the pieces is bringing you.

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Charlotte Cheney (33:09)

Let's do this.

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Hey, you weren't listening to me.

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Lauren Sherman (33:33)

Why did you decide to launch fine jewelry and when did you do it? In the last year?

Charlotte Cheney (33:39)

Yeah, so it was in the pipe for like three years. But because of like all this reason mentioned, we took like times to understand, like, where we want to, like the pool we want to swim in and how much it's going to cost and everything. So we work on the collection for like three years. We released it last year. I was doing fine before, but really on the side, disregarding, like the rest of the collection, I was doing like one of a kind project. I had few, very few collection that I was just doing when I was, you know, oh, let's have this little drop at the store and everything. It was not really built. This collection is more like properly like the official fine jewelry collection of the brand. I had it in mind for a very long time. Also because I'm getting older and I want to wear more gold. I don't want to change my jewelry so often. So there's something about the extra juice of the brand. Like, what if you just have to wear one brand, one ring or two ring instead of changing your ring every day? What would be this ring and what would be this, like, also I love to work with archetype, like very classical pieces. So what would be your solitaire ring at Charlotte and what would be the, the, you know, the pearl necklace? Like, what would be the really poor shot, like, you know, this ginger shot you got in the morning, like, that wakes you up. What would be the essence of the brand if you had to work with only this material and going from a ring that weighed 30 gram to a ring that will weight 8 gram? Because of course you cannot afford to go 30 gram. I mean, you could, but you have to also understand the market where you work in. So basically I was sketching before on a bigger format, and now I'm also challenging myself to be as creative, but on a much more smaller format. I don't know if it makes sense.

Lauren Sherman (35:33)

Yeah, for sure. I think the sort of timelessness and the foreverness of that kind of thing is a different challenge for you as a designer.

Charlotte Cheney (35:45)

Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (35:46)

Do you when you were pricing it? Cause I was just scanning it. The prices are reasonable. I mean, the diamonds you're using are not giant, but it feels accessible to a person, a woman who has a good job and likes to spend a little bit of money on herself or, or however you want to do it. How did you figure out the pricing given the extreme costs of the raw materials?

Charlotte Cheney (36:20)

Yes, we, we. It's a good question. We, we did a lot of like, shopping, not actual Shopping but we looked at so many other brands and like I said in the end if you deep dive a little bit, it's quite not easy to read. But you always end up by having for example we realized that every single brand we were benchmarking always used for the entry price a 0.3 karat and not a 0.4, not a 0.2. They all use a 0.3. So because initially I launched my ring with a 0.4 and then we always end up being a little bit too expensive. And then we realized that actually almost all of them were starting with this price because they had this size of stone. So pricing regarding fan is very linked to the amount of gold you use. Of course the amount of kara you use in the stone. So it's kind of a mix of design and mathematic in a way because you always like for example I re challenge my own design because it restores too heavy in gold for example. And I was like oh it's still too heavy and then it ends up being too expensive. So we, we, we tried a lot re sketching from like what maybe you wouldn't see with your eyes from option A to option I don't know, M. Some sometimes for some option for some style. But I, I redesigned like some of the rings like I don't know, maybe 15 time to find the proper ways. But this was in July, I mean before July. And then for example in like last week we had some reorder to do and then we realized our price are not good anymore because the raw material is so different now. So it's. To be honest I'm learning now and I'm, I'm talking to you of things that we are in, we are in the middle of this and we are in the middle of. How many times a year do you increase your price when you are in an independent brand? Because for example big brand they, what they do is they buy gold in advance so they are not so sensitive to this increase. Like I am not buying so much gold because I cannot for the moment.

Lauren Sherman (38:36)

Yeah, it's interesting. I heard from Brooke Nideck about this.

Gabby Grossman (38:40)

Have you ever met her?

Lauren Sherman (38:42)

I feel like you would like each other. She's really cool. The owner of Sydney Garber Jewelry. But she mentioned to me a couple years ago that essentially what they do a lot the big brands often do with the factories. And I'm curious, I don't know enough about your supply chain but I'm curious if your supply chain has been affected by this that the big brands are so competitive that they essentially buy out the factories even if they don't own them for like four years. Where she said there was a factory that she used in Italy forever. And they were like, we love you and we still want to work with you, but they have like contracted us for our work for the next. We're just going to make stuff for, for the next four years for them. How do you manage that? That I'm sure being in Paris and like having such a understanding of the net network in Europe. But how do you manage your supply chain stuff? Because it's the same kind of thing where the big brands can sort of just take over if they want to.

Charlotte Cheney (39:41)

I mean, this was another subject why it took three years. It was finding the good partners who wants to play the game, who don't belong to Big House. Because now a lot of my atelier I used to work with has been Buy Boat, Buy Richemont, lvmh, Kering. The Kering actually is not buying so much. But LVMH and Richemont, they buy the.

Lauren Sherman (40:07)

I think Kering just bought one though.

Charlotte Cheney (40:09)

Maybe, maybe. Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (40:10)

For Boucheron it was like their main. Something like their main factory or something.

Charlotte Cheney (40:15)

But yeah, you're, you're totally, you're totally right. It's super, super difficult to find the good partner that will follow you, that will not drop you, that will be interested in making a young brand bloom. And it's funny, like one of my supplier actually sold this company to a big group and then he sold it will not work anymore. He's going to retire because he sold his company super well. And then after like few years he was bored and he was like, I'm missing this, my job again. I want to go back, I want to build my new atelier. And so I'm working with him. But because he's now independent again and he wants to keep it small and he wants to help like young designer and because he went through this big thing of selling to a big, big company, he's not into this anymore. And hopefully for me there is still people like this were, you know, not everybody is dry, is like drawn by like big, big company, hopefully.

Lauren Sherman (41:20)

Yeah, yeah, no, that's true. I mean, I think it's some certain

Charlotte Cheney (41:24)

rules that you have to play. It's a certain rhythm. It's so many constraints and not everybody wants to accept them.

Lauren Sherman (41:31)

The, the other thing is I think that you are so strong as a designer that you'll, you can make it, you can cut through all of that. Whereas there are so many people whose work and this is in every industry and in fashion, in every category of fashion or jewelry or whatever. But your work is so clear and so people will, will seek it out no matter what and they'll figure out the pricing because it's, it was so strong from the beginning that that is really, I mean it's the greatest example. Talent does matter because sometimes it feels like a friend of mine, who you probably know, who is based in Paris was messaging me about a designer in New York, not really understanding why this designer is so successful. And I was trying to explain it and I think it's like without naming either of these people, it's an American thing. But the point being that there are, I think the frustration is there just are so many, so many brands and so many ideas like how do you really break through? And I think your clarity of who you are, all this pain in the ass stuff you can deal with because like someone will come to Charlotte Shanae for Charlotte Cheney. You can't get that anywhere else. You can't get it with the junky knockoffs of the Alphabet rings or whatever. Like it's only you. And that is, that's like impossible to do. So that, yeah, it's.

Charlotte Cheney (43:10)

I appreciate it. Yeah, it's super. I mean, thank you so much for your words first. And yeah, I, you know, we got so many copy in the past 10 years from like bigger brands, smaller brand. And it's hard, it's really hard in many different way to develop like fine recently to develop to be self financial, to being a mom at the same time. I mean it's a tough, it's a tough job. I'm doing many sacrifice. I'm not seeing my friends so often, not seeing my kids so often. And in the end I still believe it's, it's worth it because I don't know, I still have this fire inside me that I strongly believe in my design and not being pretentious, but I still believe it's really worth it. And, and yeah, but at the same time you still need to have an advance because you have some. So many copy. And, and it's true that what you said, that finding the proper partner, for example, there are, I, I can feel that some of them are very excited by the funny person that I am maybe and the crazy person that I am and, and things that I ask that are not possible, but in the end they are possible. And yeah, of course we, in this, in the story of the brand for the past 10 years, the key people Are the people who accept the challenge to work with us, to develop with us, to grow with us. And this would not. I mean, I would be nothing without them. And so my atelier is really people I cherish a lot and the relationship I have with them. And I mean, it's key to find a good person. And it's true that when we decided to launch Fine, it was a long process to identify the good partners.

Lauren Sherman (44:55)

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. And it does also speak to sort of a European sensibility, which is to me is like, it's not all just about making money. Like the money comes after.

Charlotte Cheney (45:08)

Yes.

Lauren Sherman (45:09)

Which is in America. It's not like that.

Charlotte Cheney (45:11)

It's a different project. You know, identify my project. That is not a money project. It brings money eventually and it's great. But if I wanted to have a money project, I would not be doing this. I would be doing something different. Today I designed for other brands and they asked me for super commercial collection. And I know how to do this commercial collection, but this is not where I have this fire that I'm talking about.

Lauren Sherman (45:37)

Do you ever consult on jewelry or is it usually different categories?

Charlotte Cheney (45:42)

No, I do consult on jewelry. I used to do it a lot in the past. Yeah, maybe. I think I wouldn't do it so easy today because I'm trying to exist as a jewelry brand. So it's like sometimes I got some big brands asking me to design some collection and it's kind of like tricky for me to give them a part of me in a way and being my direct competitor. So it's easier for me to work on projects that are very far from my DNA and far from the universe way I am.

Lauren Sherman (46:15)

So our mutual friend, Delphine Delval, speaking of sort of your DNA and how it applies to other categories, her question for you was like, what did she say? She said, I want to know what designer she buys what feels as hot as her jewelry. And then asked me a bunch of other stuff that has nothing to do with you.

Gabby Grossman (46:36)

But

Lauren Sherman (46:39)

what are you into fashion wise right now?

Charlotte Cheney (46:42)

I don't buy that much.

Lauren Sherman (46:44)

Yeah, I like your. Where is your shirt from?

Charlotte Cheney (46:47)

Yeah, it's from Mattu.

Lauren Sherman (46:48)

Oh, it's super nice.

Charlotte Cheney (46:49)

Yeah, I love. I mean, to be totally transparent, I work for brands that give me a lot of clothes. So it's true that it's nourishing my, you know, my shopping addiction. Easy. Because. Yeah, so I'm. I'm getting a lot of clothes. I'm also getting a lot of clothes from other brands that are kind enough to give me some clothes and then after that I just want to have vintage. Like so basically I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm buying. I don't know how to say. I think because I'm in the industry for 21 years, I'm not. So I understand the industry and it's feeding me and it's great to be inside, but as a consumer point of view, I'm less excited. Yeah, I'm having like really archetype clothes, like good denim, good shirts, good leather, good knitwear, like men's shoes. Most of the time I don't buy that much.

Lauren Sherman (47:53)

Have you found vintage shopping in Paris to become more challenging as it's, it's sort of the first stop for a lot of people there.

Charlotte Cheney (48:06)

I see what you mean. Yes, sure. I buy less vintage in Paris. I do buy a lot online. Like we have this really good thing in France called Vinted.

Lauren Sherman (48:15)

Oh, vinted, yes.

Charlotte Cheney (48:17)

Yeah. When you be in France, I give you like few can't wait few lessons. But you can find like thank you. Really, really crazy thing for not so expensive. I, I travel a lot in Japan because I have a store there and vintage, great. But yeah, Indiana, I don't buy that much. I borrow a lot to my boyfriend. Like the good shirt and everything. We almost, we share a lot. And yeah, when I, when I need a really beautiful dress for an event, I'm good friend with some brands. So I will call Alaya and I will borrow a dress at Alaya for dinner because I don't need to own them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it to own the oldest pieces. So I'm super lucky that I can borrow them then I. When I need. Yes. Yeah. I mean recently I'm quite excited by the new Chanel. Eventually I, you know, I'm very curious to see what it will give in store. Not that doesn't mean I'm going to be a customer. But, you know, it's kind of exciting. It's exciting me. I really love also the work of Michael at Celine because we. He's a friend, we work together.

Lauren Sherman (49:31)

Super great.

Charlotte Cheney (49:32)

Yeah. And it's, it's quite desirable, I have to say, like for somebody who don't buy clothes. He wants to make me buy clothes.

Lauren Sherman (49:39)

It's, it's so great to hear that because I felt it at couture talking to French people who are like, I only buy vintage. I don't buy any of this stuff that you silly Americans buy. And. But everyone was like, I want to like my friend who, who works in who's a marketer who always like embodies the brand that he works for. Was like, I want to go work at Celine. And it was like, wow. It's. It's. It's amazing to see that this American guy, I know that he has mostly worked with you all in Europe and has like a. Is super sophisticated, but it's amazing to see it, like, the really discerning French and Italians are into it. I think it's very proud.

Charlotte Cheney (50:24)

It has a very good understanding of the European market and it has a very strong culture also of like French fashion house. Yeah. But it has this very clever merchandising vision that is more American. Yeah. Well, yeah, no, I'm very happy that pieces are arriving in store and I'm looking at it online and we'll see.

Gabby Grossman (50:45)

That's exciting.

Lauren Sherman (50:45)

I know. I want to get a shirt. So I guess the last question for you is what are you thinking ahead? Like, what are your design wise? What are some of the sort of things in your mind as you. I'm assuming you're working on a collection right now.

Charlotte Cheney (51:00)

I am. It's funny because I'm so. I'm working on jewelry because now the. The. The company is based on the jewelry business. We have stores and people come from this. They come for this. Sorry. But I'm also really into, like exploring a bit more cultural pieces that maybe could have a different purpose, such as just piece of art or. I just released last year this Christophe collaboration where I did some cutlery.

Lauren Sherman (51:29)

So that's cool.

Charlotte Cheney (51:30)

Yeah. I always make sure that, you know, I need to fit the beast that the brand has became, as you know, the jewelry business and everything. But I want to make sure that I always have kind of a spare spot, like a carte blanche on the side where I can make sure I can still stimulate my brain. Because in the end, any craftsmanship that I have in my hand, not any, but lost of them, I can get excited about and maybe want to create something different depending on the material I'm having and everything. So I'm still trying to be very curious on the side and to see how it can become something, even if it's not a commercial business, but just exploring.

Lauren Sherman (52:14)

Well, we're so lucky that we have access to your mind. Charlotte, thank you so much for being here. This was so fun and I'm excited to see you in Paris.

Gabby Grossman (52:23)

Of course.

Charlotte Cheney (52:24)

When do you arrive?

Lauren Sherman (52:26)

March 1st.

Charlotte Cheney (52:27)

Oh, wow. Okay. In two weeks.

Gabby Grossman (52:28)

Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (52:29)

I'm around for many months, so we'll hang, of course.

Charlotte Cheney (52:32)

Thank you. So much.

Lauren Sherman (52:33)

Thank you for being here. It was so great.

Charlotte Cheney (52:35)

Me too. Catch you a moment. Bye.

Lauren Sherman (52:38)

Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck Co Founder John Kelly, Executive Editor Ben Landy and Director of Editorial Operations Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob Tabador,

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