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- [00:00]
A
You know when your hair turns out just right and it kind of sets the tone for the whole day, I feel like we're all chasing that, but none of us want to spend an hour getting to that point. That's why I've been really, really into lawn chair lately. I switched over to their Axia hair dryer and the first thing I noticed was how compact and lightweight it is. It just makes styling feel way more manageable, especially on those mornings when you're rushing but still want your hair to look put together. And I've been using their gloss shock treatment along with it, which has been such a nice addition for my super coarse, super curly, super frizzy hair. I'll spray it on damp hair, then blow dry and it just helps everything look smoother and more polished like that fresh from the salon kind of finish. But at home, which is extremely hard for me to get, it's been amazing. What's great is how these two work together. The heat from the dryer activates the treatment and you end up with soft, glossy hair in under 20 minutes. It's simple, it's quick, and it just fits into real life. I definitely recommend recommend it to anyone who wants an easy routine that still delivers super, super nice results. Go to launchhair.com and use code fashion to get 20 off your first order. That's L-A N G E H A I R.com and use code fashion for 20 off at checkout. Whether you're renting or paying a mortgage, one of your biggest monthly expenses should be working harder for you. That's where BILT comes in. Bilt is the membership for where you live that rewards you with points on every housing payment wherever you live. They started by rewarding rent, and now in 2026, you can earn points on mortgage payments too. Every payment earns you points you can redeem toward flights with top travel partners, Lyft rides, purchases on Amazon.com and more. Personally, I'd use my points for a weekend away. It just makes all these like everyday expenses feel more exciting. It's something to look forward to. One of the coolest parts built members get access to a neighborhood concierge. It can help book restaurant reservations, sign you up for fitness classes, or even help you discover a new spot nearby. All the while, you're being rewarded at over 45,000 partners. It's such a nice added perk. It's simple. Being a renter and now owning a home is better. With Bilt. Join the membership for where you live@joinbuilt.com fashion. That's J-O-I N B I L T.com fashion and make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you. Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Pucks and Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet. And today with me on the show are Plum Sykes and Bella Freud. We're talking about Steven Meiselle, fashion in the 1990s, the future of the industry. And I promise you so much more before we get going. I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries line. She is scoopy, analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the art world and much more. If you're interested listeners of Fashion People get a discount if you just go to Puck News slash Fashion people to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday, everyone. Hope you had a great week. It was a wild one for me. I'm so. I'm tired. I don't know, I love, I mean, I love working. I love everything. I'm just. And I am a person who likes to over schedule myself, but I'm just. It's been a lot. I hope that you're relaxing on Friday. It's actually a holiday here in Paris and so all my meetings basically have been canceled. I'm still having a lunch, but I'll be at the wework in, in the Marais if you want to come say hi.
- [04:24]
B
No, I'm just kidding.
- [04:24]
A
Please don't. This week in Line Sheet, Rachel Strugatz shares how Bobby Brown, former Fashion people guest emerged triumphant after leaving Estee Lauder Jones Road Rules. And she's. She's just killing it. And Rachel has the inside scoop. I also have the inside scoop on Authentic Brands Group, AKA abg, AKA the big licensing firm that's taking over fashion. It's a new power center of the industry and I kind of outline a. How much money they make, what their end game is, and then also. Or what I think their end game is and also, uh, you know, are they good or bad? You decide. Also, you'll find my take on Dior Cruise in Los Angeles. Thanks to everyone who gave me amazing feedback about it on the ground and then also in my DMs of people just sort of watching on the sidelines. It was, it was really insightful. I wish I had been there. It was, it's, you know, it was a turning point, I think. But very, very interesting stuff going on over at lvmh. I think there's going to be some big stories in the coming months. I also have a little report on Papier Royale, which is this new stationery shop by the founder of. Well, not founder, but the person who made Boule into what it is and sold it to lvmh. This guy Ramdon, who also has this like gorpcore shop in the Marais and also has just done a lot, is a really impressive person. And so I wrote a bit about. And also a little controversial. He's had some interesting articles. He's also trying to remake this hotel in the Swiss Alps or something. I don't know. He's fascinating, but he has incredible taste and I tried to sort of break it down. I've also got, on Friday, we've got the shop my list from April. So the interesting stuff that people have been like the most clicked on or the most engaged with items via the shop Mine, the affiliate marketing platform and it's like a mix of high end and low end. Really fascinating. And Chloe's on there with a pair of sneakers, which is interesting because they're a few years old but they're doing really well. And I just wanted to say, how about that new Chloe campaign? I love it. It's so good with the seashell apple. Martin popping out of the seashell. I will say she looks dead eyed and is not a good model. And I was like, who that model? Why did they choose her? And then I realized as album Martin, it's not the way I would go for her. If I were her, I think I would do acting. And then you move into modeling when people care about you. But anyway, enjoy this conversation with Plum and Bella. I'm going to set it up a little bit because it was at Photo London. There's this big Stephen Meisel exhibit of a lot of his work from the 1990s, including this shoot that he did with Isabella blow and Joe McKenna. Interestingly, there were two stylists on it essentially for British Vogue called Anglo Saxon Attitude. And it was kind of like the start of that whole Cool Britannia thing. But they shot all these sort of. I don't think Bella would like to be called posh, but like these sort of society girls. I think Plum would, you know, she knows what she is. She Wouldn't mind being called posh, but these society girls or like the British society in the collections of the season and then also in interesting places. So, like, Plum was shot in a pub where, like, mostly old men hung out in the 90s. It's. It's fascinating and we get really deep into that, but I hope you enjoy it. I had a great time talking to them and I was. Plum asked me to do it. And thank you again, Plum, if you listen to this at all, for having me. It was. It was an honor and we just had a really, really great night. And I am very inspired by both of them and their careers and their humanity. We talk about humanity. So I hope you enjoy it and I hope you have a great weekend and I'll catch you on Tuesday. Hi, everyone. My name is Lauren Sherman. I am the fashion correspondent at Puck. You may have never heard of it, but it's a business publication based in the US and a fashion journalist. And I am here tonight to talk about the work of Steven Meisel with Plum Sikes, the authority fashion editor all around amazing person, and Bella Freud, the fashion designer and famous podcaster. And we're here to talk about this exhibition about Meisel's work in the 90s, and in particular this one shoot in 1993 that both of these women were involved in. So, Plum, do you want to start and explain this British Vogue shoot and how it sort of came about and why it is worthy of being on the main stage here?
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B
Well, that's such an interesting thing, is why is it worthy? So we have to park that till a little later. But what happened was I was on work experience at British Vogue, and I was about 22, 23 years old, and I sort of spotted Isabella Blow wandering up and down the corridors, looking remarkably interesting in hats and feathers every day. And I went up to her and I said, can I come and work for you? And she said, why would someone as conservative as you want to work for someone as eccentric as me? And I just went, exactly, exactly. So I went to work for her. And then somehow she persuaded Steven Meisel to come and do a shoot in London, which he didn't do very often. I think the only other one he did was the Madonna sex book. That was it. And the brief was we had to find kind of blue blooded, beautiful, cool, slightly aristocratic London girls to shoot. And we just sent squillions and squillions of pictures to him in New York, one of whom was Bella Freud, who was immediately given a tick. And the only reason that I ended up being in the shoot was because I was being the assistant and they didn't have quite enough people. And Stephen just said, well, what about her? And that was that. And so I was sort of having my picture taken by him and Garon was doing my hair and Denise was doing my makeup. And then an hour later, I was in the trailer, you know, sorting out fishnet tights for Bella Freud.
- [11:19]
A
Bella, can you kind of put us in London in that period and what the shoot captured about that time in fashion, but in culture as well. Because I feel like growing up in the 90s, UK culture, British culture was everything to me in America. And that shoot is sort of the center of it.
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C
My perspective is so different from. Because I was just. I just was working away in my flat as a fashion designer, you know, like, scrabbling around. And then Izzy Blow, she'd been really supportive of me, but it was so different then. It was just like. It was like, you know, farmers. We were. It just wasn't sort of all joined together. There wasn't a scene that we were aware of.
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A
So did you all kind of know each other because London is small or. Well, I don't know. Sorry if I sound like a dumb American.
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C
Izzy was. She came over and said, I'm doing a shoot with Steven Meisel and the subject is christening dresses and you've got to make something. And I. So I made this dress vaguely.
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A
Is this.
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C
No, nothing. It's. It's one a bit later. It's the. Where is it? I'm sitting in a pub.
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A
There's Izzy
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C
and where is this picture? There's Plum and Stella. See, Plum seemed to fit the bill much more than me. I definitely am not blue blooded, but yeah. So we were just doing things and making things and we felt different because we didn't have enough money to be slick. And it suddenly seemed like you could make things and you would. People would buy it, mostly Japanese. So they would come along and you would have made things and had your shoes made down in East London instead of in Italy. And they loved that. And. And they were, you know, they were really supportive of young British fashion designers. And so Izzy was, from my perspective, the generator of this whole shoot. And she'd. I think she'd managed to persuade Alex Shulman, who was the editor, to spend, you know, the entire budget.
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A
Do you remember Plum, like, what the budgets were like?
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B
Well, you know, it's such an interesting question because one, at that time, in magazines, if you were editorial, you were kept miles away from the Budget, you
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A
didn't have to know.
- [14:27]
B
So we didn't have to know because there was no budget issues, right? And like American Vogue, no one ever said, there's no budget for this, ever. Everything was just fine on the money front. But I do remember I was telling you earlier that Steven Meisel insisted on staying in the Dorchester, which was considered quite grand at the time. And the reason that he was absolutely terrified that there was going to be no ice in England, as in to put into his water to make it cold, because I think he'd come before and he had a bit too much warm beer or something. So it was definitely going to be very expensive. And I think we spent something like three months planning it. But, you know, because at the time, we sort of, you know, there was the time and there was the money. But I also wanted to add to what you said, Bella, because I think that, like you're saying, it's interesting you say London's really small, because to us, of course, I think London's really disparate. I think New York's really small. You can find everyone in one minute. Paris is really small, but London, no one knows each other. It's kind of a strange thing, but Izzy was this connector. And I really clearly remember Izzy taking me to your house or your flat in Charles Square, which was like the back end of Notting Hill, probably now like the front end of Notting Hill. And she introduced me to Bella. And this is what she'd always say to people. She'd say, this is my assistant, Plum. She's incredibly clever. She went to Oxford and she knows how to send a fax. And that was, you know, I did her filing and her faxes and. But she. Izzy introduced me to everyone in fashion. Alexander McQueen, Hussein Shalayan Bella, Tim Walker, all the photographers. And it was interesting because she was the only person at British Vogue who would bring people into the office. So in American Vogue, we brought people in the whole time. British Vogue, no one came in, apart from Izzy brought them in. And all the other editors hated that she brought people into the office.
- [16:24]
A
Why didn't people bring people into the office?
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B
I think it was just the sort of polite English thing of, like, why on earth would they come here? And also in London, the sort of division between the magazines and newspapers and the people you were writing about, everyone was kept at arm's length. But in America, it's much more of a collaboration between the magazines and the designers. And I really did notice that when I moved because Anna Wintour took me to Meet every single designer in Paris for lunch. And I'd never met them. And I'd worked at British Vogue for four years, whatever. Apart from Bella,
- [17:03]
A
the imagery here, I was thinking about going from the 80s into the 90s and how much this defined the 90s. And I said to Plum earlier, was this the peak of fashion? Was the 90s, the golden age of fashion? And I'm curious what you both think about that, but in terms of this feels very romantic to me versus the sort of brashness of the 80s, had that already dissipated by the time you worked on this shoot? Were the 90s, like, fully settled in or were you still moving into that from. There was a big recession during that period. What did it feel like making this?
- [17:47]
C
Yeah, I think I'd forgotten about the recession. I don't know why, because it ruined my life. But there was this kind of huge momentum and then suddenly there was a recession. And I remember that because I'd made. My collection was all pale blue and the color of my whippet. And suddenly, because of the recession, no one wanted colors, they wanted black. And yeah, that was really tricky. But somehow there was this. There was this kind of feeling of camaraderie, like all the work with Marc Lebon and Crunch and all the. It felt more like going to someone's house and like having a party and taking pictures. And it was much more hand to mouth. And then the way it looked was just so beautiful and disarming and it looked more like we felt. And I think that's where the tide turned, that this professionalism didn't really reflect what we were like. You know, it wasn't about young. Young people didn't want to be professional in that way. And also, lots of people were being really successful wearing a T shirt and not being in a power suit. And so it was kind of. It was like a wake up call, I think. I mean, when you're in it, you don't really notice what's happening until later, so. But there was definitely a sense of people sort of like, I remember I was making these short films and because I thought. I didn't know what. Anyway, I just thought, maybe it's cheaper to make a film. I've always liked films. And someone said, oh, there's this cool girl. There's this young model called Kate Moss. And all my samples had come up enormous. And I said, how big is she? He said, oh, she's really small. And I went, oh, no, no, that's no use to me. I need a big girl, you know, Anyway, I missed this incredible opportunity then. So
- [20:05]
A
working with Steven Meisel, and there's very little written about him, but there's a profile from Vogue that says, essentially, he has this quote where he says, essentially, I see something in people that other people don't see. Did you get that sense from him? He saw something in you? What was he like from a casting perspective that. I mean, it's obvious in the shoot. But what do you think he changed about the way fashion photography and imagery looks?
- [20:42]
B
Well, I definitely think that he. When he took a fashion photograph, it was a portrait, not just a fashion photograph. Like the picture of Bella with, you know, one eyebrow raised, with the disdain that she always shows to everyone. It's so, you know, he just could capture people. And I think really good fashion photographers are not just about the clothes. And maybe that's what we're missing now. Talking about, you know, fashion now feeling so uninspiring, because it's not really about the people as much as it was. But he. When you. When he took a photograph of you, he directed the person he was shooting, like, minutely, like, just move that way slightly or that way. But there was never a. A suggestion like, oh, you must smile or you must do this. It was just like, sit in a pub and be you. And the funny thing is, I look at those photographs of myself, particularly the one in the pub, even though I would never have gone into a pub at the time. And I'm like, that was absolutely me at that moment in my life when I was sort of 23, 24, quite unsure of myself in a funny way, but looked quite cool. But I wasn't really very cool. I was just like a young girl in fashion. But I had sort of some kind of spirit about me that he could capture.
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A
What did you think when he said, you're gonna be in a pub?
- [22:09]
B
Well, I'd never really been into a pub, because at the time, pubs were places for men to smoke and drink and play darts. And you wouldn't go into one as a young girl. Definitely. So I remember thinking, God, he's got this really funny idea about London that people like me go and sit in a pub. He's a bit of a tourist.
- [22:31]
A
Like how I just said, london is small.
- [22:33]
B
Exactly. But then when I look at that picture, I can see now the atmosphere of a pub, of course, is very appealing to an American, because you don't have anything like that there.
- [22:44]
C
But also, he had this thing when. Cause I remember that picture that's up there. I thought, I'm Never gonna wear that dress. You know, I hate my legs. Ugh. Anyway, he said, wear that dress. And I just put. He was so mesmerizing. He hardly. He didn't say much at all. He was very quiet. And I remember I had like a bob or some maybe hair, and Garen cut it into this cool haircut. And then he came out and I remember him holding me by the top of the head like that, and he went, it's too lady. And Garren just turned me round, took me back in and out. I came with that shorn thing. And he would have. He just could see in you what he wanted for the picture. And he was completely like. He was just so captivating. And you wanted to do anything he wanted. And in a funny way, it was a bit like sitting for my father. You knew. I knew that I needed to do what he wanted and that would be the best outcome. And I forgot about. Well, I just thought, it doesn't matter if I hate my body, I want to do what he wants. And it worked. You know, it was.
- [24:14]
A
Why do you think he is so in the conversation right now? There's been. He's done two seasons of Versace campaigns. He did the Alaia campaign. He obviously is still very prolific, shoots a lot for a lot of magazines and publications and brands and all that stuff. But there's something. And he's referencing his own work, or the first Versace campaign. He referenced Avedon, this campaign, he's referencing his own stuff, and then other people are referencing him. What is it that the fashion world is trying to recapture that he has, that is making him so much a part of the present time as well?
- [24:59]
B
Well, I think there is this massive obsession with the 90s, which, when it started going, I kept thinking, oh, gosh, why does everyone want to revisit all of that? I don't understand. And now I can see it's really captivated people. But I remember being in my 20s and being obsessed with the 70s and my parents saying, oh, God, why do you want to reference all of that? So we hate it. We hate it. But I think because the 90s is a big obsession and he was the rock star photographer of the 90s. And I was saying to you earlier that then the models were not the superstars. The magazines weren't, the editors weren't, the photographers were the superstars. Like, people knew who Steven Meisel was, they knew who Mario was, they knew who Patrick Demarchelli was. Her Brits, these people were mega successful. And I think because they had so much resource behind them. They could create these incredible photographs. So, of course, people are going to look back at good things and want to, you know, be inspired by them. Like probably Meisel was by Penn and the people who'd come before him.
- [26:02]
A
Yeah.
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C
I think your point about them being portraits still stands because you look at them and you feel interested in every element of the picture. And there's a kind of gentleness, even though they're, you know, they're tough. And you. And that was part of him. He was exacting and demanding, but he brought out this kind of romance as well, of fashion and the people in fashion. So, like, Kristen McMenamy was talking about how she felt so loved by him and that he made her feel like the most important person in the world. And he really did, you know, and you knew you weren't, but somehow you were in that moment and it wasn't sort of discard afterwards. It was just you were with him in that moment and it didn't. And it counted for something.
- [27:05]
B
I mean, also. Sorry to interrupt you. The way that he used light, Helmut Newton, it was just so iconic. And it's very difficult to copy someone's use of natural light. I also think that you look at those pictures, you don't really know what collection or what season the clothes are from. They're so timeless. And the pictures of Lucy Ferry, she looks like a 1930s Mitford sister, and she was wearing, you know, Chanel or whatever it was. But I think it's. We all want that timelessness. But I loved what you said earlier. You said plum. I think that shoot was the end of fashion. I wanna know what you meant by that.
- [27:42]
A
Well, to me, the 90s were the golden era of fashion. It was before the consolidation of the industry and the globalization of the industry. As a designer, I'm sure you felt that all happening, and as an editor, you witnessed it. But I think. I don't know. There's nothing new. Like they always say after the bumpster, there was no new fashion. So it's sort of the same era. It feels like everything is extracted from this time or earlier. And there is something about the shoot that the clothes look like they were. The clothes worn by it looks like it was stuff that everybody wore to set. And maybe that has to do with the combo of Joe McKenna and Isabella Blow, because there were apparently two fashion editors on this shoot.
- [28:33]
B
So, yes, they were stunned. So Isabella had sort of got this shoot together with Alex Shulman and British Vogue. And then Stephen said he was bringing a stylist, and she thought she was the stylist. So there was a kind of war, you know, on set. But actually the clothes for each person were in the style of each person. And I think whether that was Joe or Isabella or Stephen, it was a kind of combination. But when you look at his photographs, the people always look as though they belong to the clothes and the clothes belong to them. But rather than their wearing fashion, which I think is, you know, you're saying it seems so authentic, all of that stuff. It wasn't actually like none of those clothes were ours, but somehow it seemed as though they were. But then I think I come back to the lighting.
- [29:19]
A
Yeah. Well, I also wonder, and I've talked about this with Paul Cavaco, who is also of this era. The reference, the way that creative people built these shoots and put together these images, the references were not so easy to access. And I'm curious, as a fashion designer, when you're doing your research, like, how that's changed now that you can just Google anything and it makes you. I think Paul said this. He said it somewhere that you would see a movie, and then 10 years later, you do a shoot based on it. But you. It's not like you could go pull up the movie somewhere, and now you can pull it up on YouTube or whatever. And so I think that that has sort of transformed image making and made it feel, in some cases, less.
- [30:12]
B
Well, it's too literal, isn't it? Because you can just go, oh, I'll just copy that. But if it's something in your memory, which I agree with you, a lot of those fashion editors were inspired by movies. And it could be 10 years later. I remember Grace Coddington did an amazing shoot inspired by the piano with all these John Galliano dresses. I can't remember who photographed it actually, and it was not the piano. But now maybe it would be too close to it, because, as you're saying, it's too easy to find everything. And that's partly why nothing feels original, because there's just so much stuff. So actually, if an original thing does appear, it's just so. It's so refreshing.
- [30:50]
A
And it's interesting that Meisel worked with Dario Vitale at Versace, which is super referential, but felt very original. When it came out on the Runway, it felt like nothing else, and it still feels like nothing else. But everything references everything. But there is a lack of that in fashion right now, for sure. I don't know how you feel as a person who's making new clothes on a regular basis.
- [31:21]
C
I feel pretty out of fashion myself, so I feel like it doesn't matter. Well, it doesn't to me because the divide between the big houses and anyone who is not part of that is so enormous now that it's almost like theater and then people in the audience. And so smaller brands are maybe there where just looking to do what we do best and experiment and play around with that and be more free where. And we don't have any money to do these experiments, massive campaigns. And it's quite good when you don't have any money because you become. You use everything you can and sometimes you come up with something really great. And I think in the 90s there was a lot more of that, both for people who had money and didn't. There was more experimentation, more adventurous, more camaraderie and crossover. Whereas now it feels very distant. You know, you're watching those big brands from the wrong end of a telescope and I don't know how. It doesn't necessarily. I don't think it's easy to look at them and imagine how to wear things, even if you don't want to be normal or ordinary, necessary, but how to wear it. And it feels like you described in the Meiselle that they are your clothes. And you know, like Vivienne Westwood used to do, you know, people would look outlandish and different, but they were, they looked like their true identities and it was really fun and exciting to watch. Even when people would ridicule you or them or whatever, it was part of it. You're listening to this podcast, so I
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- [34:48]
A
Plum, how do you feel about the transformation of media during that time?
- [34:54]
B
Well, I mean, that's the thing. I was sort of, when Bella was talking about this, I was thinking, we've all forgotten that the Internet got invented right in the middle of this. And for me, that was the most enormous change that's hit fashion and the world, obviously. So there were a few things. So in the sort of slightly later part of the 90s, when I went to live in American work for American Vogue, it was suddenly the moment when a actor was on the COVID of a magazine. Like, you know, Jennifer Aniston suddenly was on all these covers and the Spice Girls were on the COVID and they were suddenly as important as the models in fashion. And this was partly to do with television. And then I remember the first time that Helmut Lange put his show online and it was considered, you know, he was considered mad for doing it because apparently he would be copied by all these Chinese people. But he was the first one who staged an online show and that just transformed it. And I think it's made it both democratic and too available. So we're all swamped with this fashion imagery. And I think Bella's so right about these big brands that just feel so hollow, so overproduced, so expensive. Is that me? Am I going to wear that Dior thing or that Chanel thing? Doesn't feel like a person.
- [36:13]
A
No, no. A lot of this is about personal, personal style, like the one to one connections, all of that. And I feel like everyone's seeking that and that's why this kind of imagery is still so powerful. What was it like to go up there and see yourself blown up like that?
- [36:37]
B
Quite funny. I mean, I've seen images of those big pictures because they did a show in Spain somewhere. But I just think the pictures are so beautiful. I wasn't really thinking, oh, that's me. I just think they're just the most amazing pictures. And everyone kept saying, oh, have you got a print? And I'm like, no, I haven't. I wish I did have a print.
- [36:59]
A
You really should have.
- [37:00]
B
I know.
- [37:01]
A
I Know, you should make like Diane von Furstenberg and have. In the middle of your house. Exactly. I mean, you really should. They're a truly incredible.
- [37:11]
B
No, no. And it is funny to see yourself, you know, 30 years ago and think, oh, my God, all the time that's passed. It's a little bit sort of nostalgic. Nostalgic and a bit sad because getting older can feel a bit sort of tragic at times. But.
- [37:27]
A
Did you go up there yet?
- [37:28]
C
I haven't been up yet, but I'm. I'm. I'll go after. But I feel like it detached from them in a way which I really enjoy because it. I'm not. You know, I'm not thinking, why am I doing this? Or wearing or whatever. I just think, oh, God, I was part of that. How amazing it was. I mean, there were so many people around at the time when we got picked, and I have got a print. Not that. Yeah.
- [37:58]
B
I'm so jealous. Which one have you got?
- [38:01]
C
It's not one of those ones, but it's one in the christening dress and. Cause I went up to him at a show and I said, could I have a print? And he looked at me like, okay, that I'd had that. I didn't realize you'd never ask Stephen Meyers. I can never be in a photo because the copyright around him is so huge. But I've got a picture of me. He painted out my mole, so, yeah, it feels good.
- [38:31]
B
Of course, that's a nice thing to have.
- [38:32]
C
I know.
- [38:33]
B
But it's very difficult to get prints from fashion photographers. So I remember when I left British Vogue, they would always give you a leaving present. And they said, you know, would you like a pair of Manolos? And I said, absolutely not. I want a Craig McDeen print. And there was this particular print I wanted of Kate Moss dressed as a Red Indian, and it was Craig McDan. And they were like, oh. And it took about a year to get it. But I do have. I do have that beautiful print. And I have some other really amazing Glenn Lutchford things and some Sean Ellis stuff, and I'd love to collect. Fashion photography, it's really difficult to collect because those photographers do not print their book and sell it.
- [39:11]
A
Why do they not print so much? Just because they want to keep it, the value up, or.
- [39:17]
B
I don't know if they even see themselves as something to hang in a house. I don't know.
- [39:23]
C
So often they don't even own the copy. You know, they're not allowed to because all the pictures, like the pictures in Vogue that are printed, are owned by them. And now they're trying to address that. Because I remember Anita Pallenberg wanted to do a book of photos and a memoir and stuff, and she just gave up. Because to get the copy, the rights to reproduce them was so much work and so expensive. That I think is true, isn't it, Tom? You're a photographer.
- [39:55]
B
Tom, is this true?
- [39:57]
A
Sadly, it is true, yeah. When you first get the opportunity, just
- [40:01]
C
before the shoot happens, you get sent
- [40:02]
B
out facts in the case of the
- [40:04]
A
90s, and it says, sign this. If you want to do the shoot and you sign it and you don't really think about the consequences. You often give away the rights, as Bella says, that you would never normally
- [40:15]
B
give away, but you're blindsided by the
- [40:18]
A
fact that you want to take up the opportunity.
- [40:20]
C
And it's the same with, like, rock stars and stuff. I mean. Cause my ex husband wrote Keith Richards autobiography, and his manager, every time he had his picture taken, would make the photographer give them the rights so they could produce all these pictures. Still, the photographer gets a bum deal most of the time.
- [40:43]
B
Unless you're Steven Meisel.
- [40:44]
C
Unless you're Steven Meisel and a few other kind of brilliant, you know, people with agency in the. In the business.
- [40:55]
A
30 years have gone by and you're both still in this world.
- [41:00]
B
Yeah. And we're still friends.
- [41:01]
A
And you're still friends, which is nice. What? Plum, you're doing a million things. You're still writing novels, but you also have an amazing substack newsletter that everyone should subscribe to, and it's like the modern version of being a columnist. I feel like that's the way you get to people. What has that experience been like for you?
- [41:23]
B
Do you know, it's funny because when you were talking about the whole personal style thing and this thing that we're all desperate to see things that are personal like this. How I see my substack is I'm just writing the same kind of pieces that I wrote for American Vogue about personal style and taste, which now, because of these huge brands, those pieces are no longer sustainable in magazines. And that's where I can write about, you know, the tiniest brand who's doing one pair of shoes or two bags. And I can't do that in Vogue anymore. Tallulah Harlick's brand to Lulu Harlik's brand, she had just fabulous three items in her collection, and they are all black. And what was so interesting about that was I wrote about her you know, clothing. And this huge investor got in touch from San Francisco and said, well, she'd be amazing because it's such a good business model because it's all black and there's no sizes, and it's somehow good
- [42:21]
C
for your skin because she developed it, because she has such bad psoriasis.
- [42:25]
A
Some sort of science. I was like, that's fine. It looks really good.
- [42:30]
B
Yeah, it does look really good. But no. So I feel like the publishing on print business is falling off a cliff a bit like, you know, lots of other businesses with the Internet. And I feel like putting my work online so people can read it on their phones is much better for me, and it's probably better for them. I personally don't read masses of things on the phone. I love reading a real book or, you know, something on paper. But, yeah, I read the New York Times online, you know, I read the Washington Post online, Wall Street Journal, all those kind of things. And I kind of thought, if you can't beat them, join them, you know?
- [43:07]
A
Well, it's also about relevancy and living in the moment and being a person who wants to be a part of culture and engaged in that way.
- [43:20]
B
Yeah. And it did. Towards the end of writing books, it did get quite lonely. It's very isolating writing books because you have to sit by yourself for four years and you'll study to. And with this, I've met so many amazing people, and it's just been so much more fun.
- [43:35]
A
Bella, you started a podcast during the same period how. And that has become huge. Why did you do that?
- [43:45]
C
Well, I started it because I thought there are so many stories in fashion you never hear about. And I first thought, oh, maybe I could write a miniseries because it's so entertaining and it's not like the Devil Wears Prada. It's much more hilarious and it's got more depth than that. And I thought. I felt like there is. I was convinced that people would be interested in knowing how clothing is a sort of. How important it is, not the end. It's the beginning of something. It's a kind of. It's a prism. And I thought, in the end, it's people who are interesting, and the people in the fashion business are really interesting. But you'd never guess it. If you read a magazine, they just seem all the same because they always ask the same people. Apart from a few brilliant fashion journalists who know how sort of bizarre and fascinating and courageous people in fashion are and how resourceful. And I thought, I've got to. There must Be something I know. And I sort of tried different things. I wanted to do a chat show. I knew it needed to be a visual thing. And then I thought, well, I'll have these questions that are sort of around clothes, but in the end, people's thoughts and feelings are what's interesting and how. And all this thing about self consciousness. And I thought, if you get your clothes right, you can forget about yourself. It's the opposite of attention seeking. You do this job, and then suddenly you're more able. You have better communication because you're not worrying about what you're wearing, and it's actually clothed to your ally. And I thought that was the motivation. And then I found that that's actually true. And people do feel like that. But when I was trying to launch it, I think people just thought, oh, Bella, you know, her weird ideas. And it's so fun that it's actually a universal thing. Why wouldn't people be interested in, you know, it's about identity in the end. And everyone has a, you know, an experience of that feeling, you know, somehow that they haven't got it quite right, how to be seen as they truly are. And that's where designers are. You know, that's what we're good at. You know, that's our job, to help people feel sort of intrepid and their true selves in some different ways, it is revelatory.
- [46:49]
A
Often we were talking about earlier how exposed some of these people are because they're so open with you, and you're able to. You ask them a simple question about what they're wearing today or what makes them feel comfortable. My favorite question is when you ask if there's someone you've not been attracted to because of what they're wearing, which I think is really good. But it is. There's. I think so much of this conversation has been about sort of identity and realness, and there is so little of that. And you are able to break people open in a way that is amazing.
- [47:31]
C
I didn't do anything. I just. I think there's something. I didn't really know this when I came up with the couch. My guest lies on a couch, and I sit in the chair. And there is something very. When I was interviewing Esther Perel, the relationship therapist, and at the end, I said, why did you agree to this? You know, and she said, I've never done psychoanaly. I mean, not that it's that, but she said she'd never done psychoanalysis or anything lying down. And she said, it's A bit like talking to yourself. And I thought, oh, that's what's happening. That somehow you're more free. And also, my intention is not to expose anyone I want. But I do want to ask questions that I feel people would like to be asked and maybe aren't asked. And then there's a kind of exciting moment where things happen that you haven't really planned.
- [48:40]
A
I mean, Plum, you are also good at seeing the real person and in your writing and sort of cutting to the bone with Steven Meisel. He is a person who. We don't know much about him, his identity. He's so good at showing people's identities, but his identity is sort of unknown. What did you see from being around?
- [49:06]
B
Well, he would just sort of appear to take the pictures with a kind of black hat, very long, sort of dark hair, very, very, sort of tanned and everything. And I remember Izzy saying, you know, he's a Red Indian, darling. He's so exciting. And of course, he was Jewish, New Yorker, but he. He had this mystery about him. But, I mean, wouldn't he be amazing on your couch? My God.
- [49:32]
C
I know.
- [49:33]
B
You know, yes, but. But I. You know, I. I so agree with Bella because. Because I remember Susie Menkes is this great fashion journalist, once said to me, she said, the best fashion question you can ask anyone is, what is your first memory of fashion as a child? And I would take. I stole this question from her. And if I was ever interviewing anyone really, really famous, like Gwyneth Paltrow or Lupita or Rihanna or someone like that, I would ask them that first. And they're so disarmed by being asked about, like, their first smock dress that they then start talking about themselves. If you say to someone famous, tell me about you. Tell me about your childhood, they just clam up. But if you say, tell me about your first party dress, they're talking about the first party, their parents. And fashion is an amazing way into people because they don't feel like you were saying, Bella. So you're trying to expose them, you're just asking them about their clothes. So I love interviewing people about their clothes. And I remember once when I was interviewing James Norton for Vogue, who's, you know, that really dishy actor, and my editor said, you've got to ask him whose new girlfriend is. And I said, I can't possibly do that. Absolutely not. It's just not in my remit. I'm only going to ask him about his clothes. And of course, he didn't really have any interest in Clothes. But I was so embarrassed to ask anyone about their personal lives.
- [50:52]
A
I interviewed an actress who's pretty famous now, but when I interviewed, and I've done very little celebrity interviewing, and I was just like, oh, do you have a boyfriend? Not thinking about it. It wasn't for a fancy publication.
- [51:06]
C
Yeah.
- [51:07]
A
And she was like, I don't want to talk about that. And I had to look. And it was up on a Reddit. She had been in the teen movie and her boyfriend was the guy from the teen movie. And the only place it had ever been written about it was on, like, a deep Reddit. And this is like 15 years ago. But it is hard to ask people about those kinds of things.
- [51:24]
B
And it is in vogue. We didn't have to, you see. Yeah. I mean, I think they do more now. They talk about relationships and things, but I'm just not that interested.
- [51:32]
A
Well, I think when you ask about. You're both saying the same thing. When you ask about other things, like, then you see, sorry, I'm not great at this. But you see so much more of Stella in that than if you just were like, I don't know, who are you dating right now?
- [51:53]
B
Or exactly. Because they don't want to tell you. So just clam up.
- [51:57]
A
And plum, which is your favorite of the photos of you?
- [52:01]
B
I think I love the one in the pub, to be honest. Although it was the one that was sort of the least me. I love the one in the pub. I think it's really beautiful.
- [52:10]
C
Yeah, I got one in the pub, too. I really liked it. And also it was great because he set up. Do you remember, he set up on the canal in Kensal Road. And now it's. I mean, then it was like setting up in a rubbish dump and he had a tent. And then at lunch, he had a table with white tablecloth and china and silver. And I remember somewhat, maybe it was Izzy, like, oh, he always has to have china. You know, he never eats off a paper plate. And so we sat down on the edge of the canal and had lunch. It was like Fellini movie. It was just so. It was so amazing. And then going into that pub and sitting, you know, with a few old blokes with, you know, they'd been in there for 50 years and never spoken a word. And it was. It was great.
- [53:09]
A
These are the.
- [53:10]
C
This is the Lucy Fairy Midriff. So lovely.
- [53:14]
A
There was just announced that there's going to be a short film about Isabella blow and Alexander McQueen starring Olivia Colman. I've heard of so many I have a friend who did, who wrote a series, I think, for Hulu or something that never got made. I've heard of so many films and TV shows around Isabella Blow in particular. But then also, obviously, her relationship with Alexander McQueen. I don't know if either of you have been contacted to, like, consult on these things or what have you, but why do you think she has become such a fascination for the entertainment industry and as a sort of avatar for this era?
- [54:02]
B
Well, I mean, she was an incredible personality. And that relationship with Alexander was kind of. You know, it was a love affair, and then they were always falling out with each other. So it was like an opera. Do you know what I mean? They were like an opera, the two of them. And he obviously was incredible. They both had incredibly tragic ends. And I think people just want to know about those kind of mysterious relationships. But I don't actually know if a movie would ever tell it really how it was. I mean, I actually. I think I was interviewed for that documentary called Savage Beauty, which was the one about Alexandra Queen. And I thought that was a really, really good documentary. Cause it had so much footage of the clothes, and it was so beautifully done. But I've seen other things that I just thought were really trashy, to be honest.
- [54:55]
A
Yeah, it's complicated because it is. They're both gone. And fashion is a strange thing to try to capture on film, like you were talking about.
- [55:10]
C
Well, it has to be the backstory, in a way, and it's difficult to. Because it was such a. You know, the clothes were so important, but in the end, the story is important, and then the clothes become completely relevant. And, you know, Izzy had such a difficult childhood, and her parents. I mean, she had so much tragedy. And because she was so kind of extreme in everything she did, both good and bad, it's hard to make a film and keep the dignity of someone. And I think. I mean, I didn't know Alexander McQueen very well at all, but a lot of people around him don't talk to any of the filmmakers because they want to keep his. You know, they want to keep the respect around him. And then when you watch those shows, those early shows online, they're just mind blowing. You know, it's like, wild. And they're so affecting still. And so I don't know how easy it would be to show that.
- [56:23]
B
I know whenever I see a movie where they've. Where they show a fashion show, I just think, well, they got that wrong. And I think it would be impossible to recreate an Alexander McQueen fashion show. I mean, like I modeled in some of them because he couldn't afford any models at all. So he forced all of his friends to do it. And I just remember doing the one at King's Cross where he'd sort of made this warehouse and he put like white stripes down the middle of it so it looked like a road. And he said that we all had to put like white contact lenses in our eyes. Were you in that one, Bella?
- [56:55]
C
No, I watched that one and I
- [56:59]
B
was the only girl who said, I don't think I can quite manage that. But anyway. But I remember walking down and wearing these extreme clothes and then going back behind and Alexander was cackling like a sort of cockerel, laughing, drinking champagne, making things, sewing. And I just don't know if you could ever capture that atmosphere.
- [57:21]
A
Your summer starts now with Memorial Day deals at the Home Depot. It's time to fire up summer cookouts with the next grill 4 burner gas grill on special buy for only $199 and entertain all season with the Hampton bay West Grove seven piece outdoor dining set for only $499. This Memorial Day get low prices guaranteed at the Home Depot while supplies Last price invalid May 14 or May 27 US only exclusion supplies. See homedepot.com Pricematch for details. Girl, winter is so last season and
- [57:55]
B
now spring's got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your
- [58:02]
A
shoulders that perfect hang on the patio sundress those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch.
- [58:11]
B
Done hoping it looks anything like the
- [58:12]
A
picture when you tear open that envelope. It's time for a little in person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic. The question I have for both of you is do you think that that was that era is the end of fashion? Was it the golden age? I have a friend who was working who passed away. Both of you might know him, Long Nguyen. He passed away a couple of years ago and he was a fashion editor in New York but had worked at Dolce and Gabbana and he was working on a book about the 90s and had a lot of trouble with photography. But to him it was the peak. He was very he's in all the articles about heroin chic. Cause he did a shoot with Sorrenti and that was like the heroin chic shoot. So when he died that was what everyone talked about anyway. He would always say was golden age of fashion. It was the end. Do you all feel that way? Do you feel like.
- [59:15]
B
I think that there is an end to freedom? Because I think cancel culture means that it would be very difficult for an Alexander McQueen or a John Galliano to come out now. Can you imagine anyone calling their show the Highland rape and not being canceled
- [59:30]
A
or the homeless show?
- [59:31]
B
The homeless, whatever it is. So because of the Internet, because everything's photographed, everything's documented, the freedom's gone away. And once that goes away, the sort of bravery and the courage that you need to create is magnified. I don't think it's the end of fashion, because I still love clothes, and there's still amazing clothes coming out, but I don't know if we'll see those kind of that edge and rawness at the moment.
- [59:57]
C
Yeah, I don't think it's the end. I think the whole thing of fashion, it just never ends. You know, all the shops are closing down. Everything's closing down. But somehow it won't end. It will re. It will somehow come through in a different way, and maybe those things are canceled. But there's all this new transgender and all this different kind of stuff that is new to us, but it's new fashion. And I don't think fashion will ever die. It will just be incomprehensible as we get older and think, what is that stuff? You know? And that's its job. And I hope. I have total confidence that it's not over.
- [60:48]
A
I agree. Sometimes. We have a minute. If someone has a question, tell me,
- [60:59]
C
is black very fashionable?
- [61:01]
A
Is what black very fashionable? Oh, I think it. It's always fashionable with fashion people. I like to participate myself. Yes. It is crazy how many people in America wear black all the time, like, black. Because everyone in America wears just, like, leggings all day, but you go to the airport, and everyone is wearing tons of black. And I think about that a lot because I think 25 years ago, it wasn't like that. Right. It was less. It wasn't. It feels like everyone wears black and gray all. All the time. And I think that's. Of this era specifically. Yes. Yes. I had a question also. Just thank you all for your contributions of fashion and the legendary work you did with Stephen. I had a question about his, like, work process. So did when you were sitting for him, did he take many photos, or was he very quick? Was he, like, a photographer who was meticulous like Pen was, or was he just like, this is the photo that's it moving to the next thing. And then did he talk about, like, his references or what was inspiring. I know y' all mentioned how he was kind of quiet. So I was just wondering, like, behind the scenes. That's a great question.
- [62:28]
C
I think he was very quiet and he. I think he took a medium amount of. He wasn't. He didn't just take a picture and move on his whole. He had this kind of languidness, but it was very, very purposeful and tensional. And I don't. So long ago, I don't remember. But he took just the amount of time that he needed. I know it's sort of annoying reply. But some people are really quick and then some people are so slow that you just feel like you're going to die. Like Richard Burbridge. I remember, like standing in this awkward position and tweaking. But somehow Steven Meisel, it was just perfect. It was like the perfect length of a meal that somehow you felt like exactly everything was right and time was almost irrelevant. So maybe that's why we don't remember.
- [63:36]
B
Because I like you. I remember thinking, well, this is very relaxing. Just sitting in a pub, probably. I think he took about an hour on each photograph at least. And I. And I'm pretty sure that they took Polaroids as well. Do you remember that?
- [63:50]
C
I'm sure.
- [63:50]
B
And the thing is, each Polaroid takes five minutes to develop, so it would have taken much longer than a shoot. Now. But also the references. I don't remember any boards of references at all. I think the clothes were the references, actually. I don't think he was looking back at old pen pictures or there was nothing like that going on.
- [64:12]
C
No, he seemed to be completely prepared. And then maybe the hair and makeup took much longer. Cause I think it might have taken half a day.
- [64:23]
B
Yeah.
- [64:23]
C
You know. Cause they'd suddenly decide to dye people's hair in the middle of a shoot and things. I mean, it was kind of amazing.
- [64:32]
B
Yeah.
- [64:33]
C
Yeah.
- [64:34]
A
So maybe one more. Yes. All the way in the back. Do you think it's sort of important, looking back at his work compared to
- [64:45]
C
now, to like, how he has quite
- [64:47]
B
a lot of power, strong sense of feeling. Like if you look at work that's
- [64:52]
C
coming out now, you sort of see
- [64:54]
B
people referencing him excessively, or do you
- [64:57]
A
think it's sort of inevitable?
- [65:01]
C
I think he's a really hard person to reference because it's hard to pin down what's going on. All you know is you're just drawn towards it and you feel like you're part of It. It's like you're it. You know, you want to be. There's some sort of atmosphere in his pictures where you feel your sympathy is kind of involved. It's like reading a book. You're just caught up and you want to know more. And I think that's why he's such a great photographer, because he makes people interested in and wonder what's going on. What are they wearing? You know, who are these people? Why do they look like that? Are they happy? You know? And I think that's the job of an artist. And he is a. He's definitely a great artist in his work. And how he makes fashion, somehow it's so rarefied, but it's also for everybody. And he brings that gift of this. Especially then when fashion was so much more niche. You know, everyone in the high street, you could only buy really bad clothes, and they were all copied and really badly made. But. And that's all changed. But he brought that kind of high. High fashion and that high beauty to everybody, and everyone wanted a. You know, people bought magazines then because that's the only place they could get it, and it was enriching. You hear of people growing up in, I don't know, Texas or. I've never been somewhere really far away, but where they would buy Vogue or they'd go to a shop and look at Vogue on the shelves and.
- [66:56]
A
Yeah, I mean, Pittsburgh.
- [66:58]
C
Yeah, that's where I grew up.
- [66:59]
A
I was reading British Vogue at Barnes and Noble, like, just sitting there sudden enough to buy it and. And, yeah, I mean, that is how you connected with the bigger world. But there's a humanity to it, I think, of what he does that is hard to.
- [67:17]
B
I also think that, just to answer your question, he did a lot of shoots from American Vogue where there was multiple. Multiple models in the pictures. Like sometimes 10 girls, 10 of the top models in the world, 15, all in one portrait. A bit like the Dolce ads or the Versace ads. And it's very difficult to reference that now because no one can afford to put all the world's supermodels in one studio in New York on the same day. It's just mind blowing to imagine how that happened. But they all came for him. Whereas now everyone's got to go to the girl. It's a different world.
- [67:51]
C
Yeah, it's true. Yeah. Everyone was in love with him, and it worked.
- [67:58]
A
I hope he comes on your podcast.
- [68:00]
C
I don't think he ever will, but I'll definitely keep trying.
- [68:04]
A
Formal request has been put out and also to get Plum a print. Yeah, Plum and Bella, thank you so much. Plum, thank you for putting this together. It was so great and both of you, so many insights and it was a dream for me to be on the stage with you both. So thank you and thank you all for your great questions. Fashion pieces People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. The show is produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to Puck Co Founder John Kelly, Executive Editor Ben Landy, producer Maya Tribbett and Director of Editorial Operations Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, Kelly Turner and Bob Tabador. Your next chapter in healthcare starts at Carrington College's School of Nursing in Portland. Join us for our open house on Terr Tuesday, January 13th from 4 to 7pm you'll tour our campus, see live demos, meet instructors and learn about our Associate Degree in Nursing program that prepares you to become a registered nurse. Take the first step toward your nursing career. Save your spot now at Carrington Edu Events. For information on program outcomes, visit carrington. Edu Sci.