In Phoebe We Trust

Summary

Podcast Summary: "In Phoebe We Trust" – Fashion People Episode

Release Date: August 5, 2025
Host: Lauren Sherman
Guests: Luca Silka (Bernstein Analyst) and Sarah DeMolex (Stylist)

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1. Earnings Season Overview

Timestamp: [03:21] – [06:06]

Lauren Sherman opens the discussion by addressing the current earnings season, inviting Luca Silka to share his insights. Luca provides a comprehensive analysis of the luxury fashion industry's financial health, highlighting several key factors impacting performance.

Key Points:

• Chinese Market Decline: Luca emphasizes the significant downturn in the Chinese market, which remains a crucial revenue driver for luxury brands. He states, "The most important one is the Chinese. If they were to progress on a U-shaped recovery, the industry is not doomed." (05:00)

• Consumer Polarization: There's a notable split between high-net-worth individuals and middle-class consumers globally. While affluent consumers continue to spend, aspirational and middle-class segments are retreating, exacerbating revenue disparities.

• Soft vs. Hard Luxury: Luca distinguishes between soft luxury (accessible luxury) and hard luxury (exclusivity-focused). He notes, "There’s a significant polarization between soft luxury and hard luxury." (04:30) Brands like LVMH’s fashion leather goods experienced a decline of 9%, with Gucci down by 25%, while Richemont’s Drury Maisons saw double-digit growth.

• Value Perception: The perception of value is shifting, with consumers questioning the worth of premium-priced items. Luca mentions, "Selling the same product at two or three times the price they had before the pandemic isn’t going to do it." (05:45)

• International Trade Uncertainties: Ongoing trade negotiations and potential tariffs, such as the 39% tariff threat by Switzerland by August, add to the industry's challenges.

2. Luxury Brands' Pricing Strategies and Consumer Behavior

Timestamp: [06:06] – [11:56]

Lauren delves deeper into luxury brands' pricing strategies, particularly their move upmarket, and how it affects consumer behavior.

Key Points:

• Trading Up vs. Trading Down: Lauren observes that consumers who previously traded up to brands like Saint Laurent or Bottega Veneta are now opting for more accessible brands like Coach. She questions whether this is an anomaly or part of a broader trend.

• Brand Positioning: Luca responds by affirming that while moving upmarket is a logical strategy, brands must balance it without alienating their existing customer base. He states, "The modern luxury goods industry is not really about exclusivity. It is about the appearance of exclusivity." (07:00)

• Maintaining Entry-Level Products: It's crucial for luxury brands to retain entry-level products to maintain revenue streams from a broader audience. Luca advises, "You need to adjust the product mix. Stretch upwards, but don't relinquish the entry price segment." (10:00)

• Impact of Secondhand Market: Lauren introduces the topic of the secondhand market's influence on consumer behavior.

3. The Rise of the Secondhand Market

Timestamp: [11:23] – [13:08]

Luca examines the growing significance of the secondhand market in the luxury sector.

Key Points:

• Accessibility and Affordability: The secondhand market offers consumers access to high-end brands at more affordable prices. Luca notes, "The secondhand market is a good way for consumers to enter the major brands at more compelling price points." (12:00)

• Market Leaders: Brands like Louis Vuitton, Dior, and Chanel dominate the secondhand market, with their products being the most sought after.

• Sustainability and Consumer Choice: The shift towards secondhand purchases reflects a broader trend in sustainability and conscious consumerism.

4. Richemont’s Performance and Brand Dynamics

Timestamp: [14:08] – [22:01]

The conversation shifts to a detailed analysis of Richemont, one of the major players in the luxury market.

Key Points:

• Jewelry vs. Watches: Luca highlights that Richemont's fine jewelry segment is performing robustly, even as the watch market lags. He explains, "Cartier and Van Cleef are clearly leading with jewelry, selling pieces under $20,000 that are more compelling than handbags in the same price range." (15:05)

• Cartier's Success: Cartier watches are outperforming expectations, particularly among female consumers. Luca states, "Cartier has risen as one of the most important watch brands globally, with a significant skew towards female consumers." (17:40)

• Fashion Division Challenges: While brands like Chloe are receiving positive feedback, sustaining this momentum is challenging due to potential talent poaching and insufficient support.

5. LVMH and Dior: Opportunities and Challenges

Timestamp: [22:01] – [25:49]

Lauren and Luca discuss the prospects for LVMH, with a particular focus on Dior.

Key Points:

• Jonathan Anderson’s Influence: Dior’s recent menswear show under Jonathan Anderson has received positive feedback, signaling a potential turnaround. Luca remarks, "Jonathan Anderson's first collection was only menswear, and it looks promising." (22:30)

• Brand Recovery: Laurents points out the decline in Dior's performance, and Luca remains optimistic, "With new management and careful handling of price and mix, Dior could significantly rebound." (23:50)

• Gucci’s Direction: The success of Gucci under Demna Gvasalia is crucial. Luca emphasizes, "The key to Kering’s success lies in Gucci's ability to innovate and maintain its distinctiveness." (24:15)

• Q3 Outlook: An influx of new creative directors and designers is expected to shape the industry's trajectory in the next 12 to 18 months.

6. Stylist Sarah DeMolex on Phoebe Philo’s Latest Collection

Timestamp: [28:15] – [46:53]

Sarah DeMolex shares her insights on Phoebe Philo’s latest collection, discussing its impact on the fashion landscape and her personal styling approach.

Key Points:

• Collection Overview: Sarah praises the collection's versatility and creativity. "The collection shows such a variety. It's incredibly clever and wearable for women of all ages." (29:14)

• Design Elements: Highlights include unconventional pieces like tiger jumpsuits and acid-washed denim, which inject humor and a fresh perspective into the fashion scene.

• Personal Influence: Sarah explains how Phoebe Philo’s designs have transformed her wardrobe and styling philosophy. "Her influence has made me more efficient and confident in my styling choices." (36:26)

• Pricing Perspective: While acknowledging the high prices, Sarah justifies them based on quality and craftsmanship. "I want to pay the right price for what I judge is the best quality." (38:15)

• Industry Impact: Phoebe Philo’s approach challenges traditional norms, encouraging designers and consumers to question and innovate. Sarah reflects, "She pushes people and customers to ask more questions. It’s refreshing and makes you want to push things further." (44:18)

7. Conclusion and Future Insights

Timestamp: [47:08] – [47:07]

Lauren wraps up the episode by thanking Sarah and Luca for their invaluable contributions, emphasizing the dynamic nature of the fashion industry and the importance of continuous innovation.

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Notable Quotes

• Luca Silka: "The modern luxury goods industry is not really about exclusivity. It is about the appearance of exclusivity." ([07:00])

• Lauren Sherman: "Everything is changing in the fashion world, and today we’re exploring how to navigate these shifts." ([01:05])

• Sarah DeMolex: "Phoebe Philo’s collection is a refreshing blend of humor and sophistication, challenging the status quo." ([29:14])

• Luca Silka: "Adjusting the product mix is crucial. Stretch upwards, but don't relinquish the entry price segment." ([10:00])

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Key Takeaways

1. Market Challenges: The luxury fashion industry faces significant headwinds, primarily due to declining Chinese sales and shifting consumer demographics.

2. Strategic Pricing: Brands must balance moving upmarket without alienating their existing customer base, maintaining a diverse product mix to sustain revenues.

3. Secondhand Growth: The rise of the secondhand market offers both opportunities and challenges, providing accessibility while potentially cannibalizing new sales.

4. Brand Resilience: Companies like Richemont show resilience in specific segments, particularly jewelry, but must navigate talent retention and market saturation.

5. Creative Leadership: The introduction of new creative directors is pivotal for brands like Dior and Gucci, influencing their trajectory and market performance.

6. Influential Design: Phoebe Philo’s latest collection exemplifies innovative design, significantly impacting styling trends and consumer preferences.

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This episode of Fashion People offers a deep dive into the current state of the luxury fashion industry, blending financial analysis with creative insights. Luca Silka provides a thorough breakdown of market trends and brand performances, while Sarah DeMolex illuminates the transformative impact of Phoebe Philo’s designs on both personal styling and broader fashion narratives. Together, they paint a comprehensive picture of where the industry stands and where it’s headed.

Transcript

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[Lauren Sherman]

Welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo Line sheet and today with me on the show is Bernstein analyst Lucasoka to discuss the best and worst of earnings season. LVMH, Caring Richemont and more. Plus stylist Sarah DeMolex joins me to unpack the latest Phoebe Philo collection and discuss her influence on the fashion world at large. Happy Tuesday everyone. I'm going to make this really quick because we have Luca and Sarah on this episode. Check out line sheet. This week I have a piece on Quince. What exactly is it? Why does everyone hate it? We're going to really get into it and I also I looked into what was happening behind the scenes at American Eagle with this Sydney Sweeney campaign kerfuffle and how the executives there are managing it or not managing it. You need to read my piece to find out. Also, Sarah Shapiro has a great look at the sort of state of the premium denim market on Tuesday. But really quickly on this Luka and Sarah episode. Super fun, lots of insights. Not high low, all high high, but kind of the business and the pleasure of of fashion. In one episode, Luca was joining us from a remote location and we had some technical difficulties. So sound isn't, isn't super great. But I think it's, it's good enough and I hope you enjoy it. Lukas Silka, welcome back to Fashion People. It's always an honor.

[Luca Silka]

Thank you very much indeed for inviting Me. Lauren, it's a pleasure.

[Lauren Sherman]

Are you on holiday yet or not? You just sent out a report, so I suppose no. But are you about to go on holiday?

[Luca Silka]

Not yet, no. We hope that inflows are going to be fading during the week so that I can take some time off or at least chill out a little bit.

[Lauren Sherman]

Understood. So let's talk about this earnings season. What is your big takeaway like? Do you think that the industry has peaked and that we are all doomed?

[Luca Silka]

No, I think that the industry is clearly suffering from one of the most important, if not the most important nationality, the Chinese, continuing to be on the back foot. There's also a sense that high net worth individuals, rich consumers are spending while aspirational consumers and middle class consumers are on the back foot everywhere, not just in China. And the other thing is, there's quite a significant polarization between soft luxury and hard luxury. After all, we saw the Drury Maisons of Richemont in the double digits while LVMH with fashion leather goods was minus 9 and Gucci was minus 25. I think that some of the headwinds are connected to value for money perception. I believe that the jury at between $5,010,000 looks a lot cheaper than handbag in the same price range. And I think that there's indeed a need for a soft luxury to sort of adjust the mix and clearly beef up the newness. Selling the same product at two or three times the price they had before the pandemic isn't going to do it. So there's that, there's the Chinese, there's the uncertainty that the world has been going through with international trade debates and negotiations still up in the era for some countries. I particularly feel that as I'm a half Swiss and we're all flabbergasted by the 39% tariff rate applied or at least threatened to be applied by August 7th. So there's a lot of things that are still very much humped in the era of which the most important one is the Chinese. For sure. If they were to progress on a U shaped recovery, I think that soon enough we would be concluding that the industry is not doomed with the amount of savings and firepower that they have accumulated. But at the moment this is yet to appear.

[Lauren Sherman]

Okay, there's many questions here, but one question I have is this, this attempt with a lot of the luxury brands to go further up market and compete more easily against an Hermes, where it does feel like a value for money thing in every aspect of this. Because if you look at like coaches performing really well in the US it feels like to me people who for the last 10 years have been trading up to the true luxury brands are now, and also younger consumers who maybe would have traded up are now buying Coach bags or, or what have you. I don't know if Coach is an anonymous anomaly or if, or if that is what is happening. But what you've seen, what I've noticed from like a Saint Laurent or even Bottega Venetel, which was already on the higher end, has, has raised prices. And certainly Gucci tried, you just had a report this morning looking at Hermes and Prada. Prada has tried this also. Everything is, is more money. Do you think that those brands, you can't really go back, right? You can't, you can't stop if you've, if you've raised prices, can you walk that back or do you think that they are going to have to just sort of wait it out until the consumer sees that there is a value there, that it is deserving of those prices? I know Chanel even said that they went pushed too far on the pricing part. Part of it.

[Luca Silka]

My two cents is that it definitely makes sense and it's appropriate for brands to scratch upwards and move into a higher price range if they can find credible products and if they can find a credible way to do it. I think Louis Vuitton with capucines had done a fantastic job in 2013 demonstrating that the brand could do a lot more than just canvas bags. Having said that, I would make two remarks. First, the sky is not the limit. And second, you need to be careful, especially when you are a very large brand, not to forget or leave behind a significant portion of your customers. And I think that even Hermes, which is often quoted as the quintessential high end brand by their own admission last week said that they have volume businesses, that they have silk, they have perfumes and so on. And with those products they need to serve a very large audience. And that is I think a vital trait of the modern luxury goods industry. The modern luxury goods industry is not really about exclusivity. It is about the appearance of exclusivity. Because in order to be as big as it is and in order to grow as fast as it does, it has to appeal to a very large consumer audience, which includes aspirational consumers. If you leave that space empty, then other players will move into it. And I think that those that have a credible proposition, like Coach or like Ralph Lauren or like Todd's, have been having a Field day getting into that space and providing consumers, especially when it comes to handbags with good quality products priced I think between 1,000 and $2,000 a euros. And that I think is a space that the major luxury goods brands in Europe cannot just forget about. Maybe smaller brands, maybe canvas bags, maybe in the case of Prada and island bags. But for sure, if you exit that space altogether, then you're going to feel it on the total revenue. Because even if the top 2 or 3% of consumers account for maybe 30, 40% of your revenues, the bottom 50% still account for 10%. And in a relatively slow growth environment, you cannot give up 10% of your sales. And I think that that is more of a problem when it comes to LVMH for Dior than for Vuitton. Because coming to your question, what you need to do is you need to adjust the product mix. You need to make sure that you stretch upwards, but you don't relinquish the entry price segment. And if you did, then you just need to introduce new products at that sweet spot price so that you can get the market back.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, I want to go to the individual groups and talk about a couple of the specific brands within the groups. But on this bigger thing, how much do you think the other element of this is? The secondhand market? How much do you think the secondhand market is impacting consumer behavior? Now I know it's still very niche, but do you think that's going to become a bigger thing for consumers?

[Luca Silka]

I think for sure, like in watches, the second hand market is a good way for consumers to enter the major brands at more compelling price point. Clearly there's a trade off because you're not getting a new product, you're getting a second hand product instead. But it costs less and if it's in good condition, then it's almost as good. This applies to Rolex for example, but this can apply also to the majority handbag brands that alone are responsible for the very vast majority of the second hand market we see in the category. If you take Mess, Vuitton, Dior and De Chanel, they are the lion's share what consumers buy. So I think indeed consumers have alternatives. You mentioned Demi, Poland, we mentioned a few brands that come from a credible background like Magiela and so on.

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[Lauren Sherman]

Okay, so let's go through some of the some of the companies and I love to start with Richemont and go down the list, but I feel like you've kind of, maybe we can kind of dig into the pros and cons or the positives and negatives at every all the three big groups at least. So at Richemont, you mentioned the fine jewelry is doing well, and I see that too. Why spend five or ten grand on a bag that's gonna wear and that you're gonna end up reselling when you can get pair of diamond earrings or a watch or something for that same price? But the watch market obviously is not as strong as fine jewelry. What's going on at Richemont? And then let's talk briefly about their fashion. Fashion brands too.

[Luca Silka]

I think that Cartier and Van Cleef are clearly leading with jewelry and there's a lot, but they're selling at less than 10,000 or at less than $20,000 because indeed at 5 or $10,000, a piece of jewelry or a Cartier watch looks a lot more compelling than a handbag. By the way, the specialist watchmakers at Richemont are nowhere near as good as the jewelry maisons. But when we look at the growth of watches as a product, we see that it is a lot better than the specialist watchmakers division is doing. And that is because the Cartier watches are selling very well. So Cartier is firing on all cylinders, both jewelry and watches, which I think is again back to the idea that the category is a lot more compelling today. And make no mistake, Richemont, unlike some of the other niche players that we referenced to before, is also suffering from quite a weak support from Chinese consumers. There's, I think, temporary love affair of these consumers with local brands like Laukugold. But never mind the Chinese consumers. Richemont is doing very well, indeed, even without a strong support and even with the Chinese consumers, was said to reduce their decline and not yet be and not yet provide a significant contribution to growth.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's interesting you mentioned the Cartier watch thing. I wonder, is it possible to see. Do you have any data on whether or not that's being driven by women? Because I just feel like I know a lot of people who are buying Cartier watches. I'm also of the age where if you're gonna buy a watch, you probably are gonna get it around this time. But do you think that some of the interest in Cartier watches is being driven by like a more pronounced female audience? And also, do you think it or do you think it's just that, like, Cartier is the. A slimmer watch is what is trendy right now?

[Luca Silka]

I think indeed Cartier as a brand is priced by ladies. And I think that the bulk of their watches would be for ladies. I would definitely subscribe to that. The Cartier watches, in a way, are the entry price into the brand because if you buy them in steel and if they are in quartz, chances are that they could cost less than 5,000. So. And they're still, you know, a core Cartier product. So there's a lot of mileage you get for this price tag, unlike now some of the soft luxury brands that for less than 5,000 would only be giving you a small back look at the Chanel windows to confirm that. So I do think that Cartier has been able to rise as one of the most important watch brands globally in the high end, probably in second place behind Rolex in terms of total volumes with a significant skew towards female consumers.

[Lauren Sherman]

Got it. Okay, let's move and on really quickly on the fashion division there. What do you think about the Chloe? It's not a turnaround, the situation at Chloe, because I feel like the new designer, Shamina Shemina, people I. People who know her, I'll pronounce it differently. I haven't gotten a pronunciation directly from her, but she's very beloved. People really like the collections, but I don't see it. I haven't heard of anything of it. Like really working at retail in the way I have heard about Alaia, especially the shoes.

[Luca Silka]

I think that Richemont in fashion is doing particularly well as the Deen Alaya had been very popular and very successful. Chloe has also been meeting with a lot of positive feedback. What we see from previous experience is that those successes have tended to be transient because there's a lack of critical mass to sustain Them both in terms of support for these brands and in terms of retention of the key talent that are at the heart of those temporary successes. So fingers crossed for Richemont that this time is different. But the risk is that either their best talent is poached or that they don't necessarily have the wherewithal to support their brands and to make them break through the niche that they're being recognized in.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, if fingers crossed for them because especially at Alaia, I think I. It's a re really has become a go to brand clothing wise for a certain in the U.S. especially for a certain customer. And I feel like it could get bigger. But okay, let's move on to the big guns. Let's talk Dior LVMH overall, but Dior in particular because to me, Dior, there's a huge opportunity there. There are a lot of people who would have never bought a Dior bag in their entire lives prior that maybe would buy one, now will maybe buy a necklace. Do you think it's wholly reliant on the luxury customer? I mean, one thing that I think people forget a lot is that Dior at a very big men's business, I assume a lot of that was in China. What do you think's gonna happen there? Given the feedback of Jonathan Anderson's first collection? It was only men's, but you know, I have people messaging me asking me prices on bags, things if they need to save up. Do you think it's going to be enough to bounce that business back?

[Luca Silka]

Well, they seem to be off to a good start. Jonathan Anderson first show feedback is indeed positive. It was only menswear and we will see women's wear in due course in September. But it does look pretty promising. There was clearly a need I think in the case of Dior to regain that the sort of the attention and the focus of consumers for, for, for a while that been very central in the industry. And for a number of years Dior had been the hottest brand in the space. Not in the most recent years. And I think that that has to be recaptured. And Jonathan Anderson with new management and with more careful handling of price and mix should move Dora significantly ahead in comparison to where it is now. In our assessment, the bulk of the decline we had seen in the first quarter was very much coming from Dior. With Vuitton in positive territory in the second quarter, both brands have possibly been negative, but I think you're a lot more than Vuitton.

[Lauren Sherman]

Okay, I know we're all waiting. I know we're Waiting for this guy. But like Luca de Mio. Is that how you would say it? Luca de Meo.

[Luca Silka]

Luca de Meo, Yes.

[Lauren Sherman]

Luca di Meo. So I know we're waiting. Everyone loves him. Everyone I know who is Italian, who's worked, connected to him or knows someone who's worked for him says he's amazing. This guy has never, ever, ever dealt with any kind of product like this. And also, it's not like he can just fire everyone. Then there will be no one working there. So what do you think is going to happen? It does not seem good. It does not seem good right now. I'm. I'm worried. Like, I think I understand. It seems like Bottega is being managed super well. I think Saint Laurent, they're managing it very well. The Gucci situation is. Is tough. I like. What do you think is going to happen?

[Luca Silka]

Well, I think that the most important basic test is for Demna to work well at Gucci. If that was the case, and we will soon see what Demna is able to invent for Gucci going forward, Luca would be finding a much easier opportunity to supercharge on the back of this potential success, supercharge the Gucci turnaround and also streamline some of the Kering's forays in various directions. But I would say at the root of the caring rebound, we would need to find sparkle for Gucci and a vision for Gucci that works quite clearly. At the risk of stating the obvious, the idea of making Gucci quiet and taking it more classic was a fiasco. So there's a need to make Gucci Gucci be over the top, except in a different way than Tom Ford or than Alessandro Michele were able to do that. I also think that possibly we've seen the peak quite luxury, so the stage could potentially be set.

[Lauren Sherman]

Is there anything else from your perspective that people need to be watching for in Q3?

[Luca Silka]

I think that the most important points to be watching out for in Q3 is how the newness is going to hit the market. We're going to have an unprecedented line of new designers and new creative directors at the most important brands. This I think is going to be very much the point to watch in Q3. Current trading and the quarter itself is going to be important. But I think even more important is whether some of those premieres could potentially be well received by consumers and by the industry at large. There's an unprecedented lineup of new creative directors hitting the catwalk. And that I think is what is going to define the next 12 to 18 months.

[Lauren Sherman]

Luca, thank you as always. I hope you get a break and we'll talk next quarter for sure.

[Luca Silka]

Thank you. Have a great summer.

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Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org Jack Daniels and Old Number 7 are registered trademarks. Copyright 2025 Jack Daniels Tennessee Whiskey 40% alcohol by volume 80 proof. Sarah de Mevalex welcome to Fashion People.

[Sarah DeMolex]

Thank you, Rohan.

[Lauren Sherman]

So I wanted to have you on briefly because we were messaging. You're one of my sort of go tos for copying outfits. Anything you buy, I will buy also. But you're an amazing stylist and I'm very inspired by your work and the way you live your life and how you dress and your interest in clothing. And we've had lots of fun conversations about shopping and how we spend spend and who inspires us. And I wanted to discuss this most recent Phoebe Filo collection because I feel like it was potentially a turning point for the brand, which is still under 2 years old. What did you think of the collection which will be released? They released images about two weeks ago and it will be available in stores starting early January. What, what was your impression?

[Sarah DeMolex]

I just loved it. But to be, to be honest, I think we spoke of that privately, like you and I when it was first released two years ago. So the, the first edit, as they call it, I already thought it was, it was really, really, really good. And I, and I, and I was not expecting, you know, like people were expecting crazy things. And I thought it's actually already really brilliant and, and shifting something. And then the second edit, I mean the, the collection. So it's a collection and edit, but like the first edit was for me really good. And then the collection B and C and now it's D, I think I thought it was really. I really felt that with the last one, I have to say I felt this one was kind of a as you said a turning point. It shows such a variety. Sorry. Of her designs and taste.

[Lauren Sherman]

The.

[Sarah DeMolex]

I mean I have so much, so much to say about it. I think it's, it's incredibly clever. It can, it can go. It can. You can like it and wear it. I can like it and wear it. A 55 years old woman can like it and wear it. I have 25 years old friend who can like it and wear it. It's like oh, you know, assistant or like everyone got something from it. Which is quite surprising because it was not maybe the most conventional collection. You have a furry type of short, you have bermudas, you have a one piece kind of tiger jumpsuit like that, that, that, that outfit. I was like this is so brilliant. There is so much humor in it. I'm wearing her clothes and, and I have to say. Yeah, that's just, it's just a way different feeling from any other type of brands or clothes I've worn.

[Lauren Sherman]

I agree. I feel like it totally changed my interest and my approach to dressing in the last two years for you too. And also you could see it in everything. You can see it everywhere. The influence of it from the, the popped collar to the colors to muscle tees and trousers and, and the, the style of bag she, she designed that sort of like flat everywhere, everywhere in.

[Sarah DeMolex]

A way that is like actually quite. For something that is like barely two years old. To see how much for me to see how it shifted like literally like the imagery and certain brands in the industry and you know, first it was the white sheet she was using for the background and everyone started using a white sheet, kind of a bit crimpled and it was the big sunglasses, like Miles, Miles Davis sunglasses. And it's like as you said, the muscle top and like the baggy trousers. It's just like everything got. She's just so head. There is something that is like so straightforward and so when it, when it came out I was like, this is some. So in your face. This is like such like in your face thing where everyone was like, oh, quiet luxury beige, like you know, like cashmere coat and stuff like from really good brands actually that are still very, really good and that we still love a lot. But it's just, it's just a different thing. It's just a different. I think it talks to a different type of woman maybe. And the fact that you said it's, it changed your perspective on how you want to dress. It's so interesting to me as a stylist. And like I, I always ask you like, what did you bought this trip? Like, what did, what did you want to buy? What do you fancy? And we just fancy her clothes. It's, There is something about it that you, it's just evident, like every time I go to the Gari Lafayette. Well, I think you've been.

[Lauren Sherman]

I have, yes.

[Sarah DeMolex]

And you put stuff.

[Lauren Sherman]

I have. It's, it's an amazing pop. It's a store in. I agree with the store and it is wonderful that women's floor overall is gorgeous.

[Sarah DeMolex]

Really good. Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

And I was thinking about this for fall, actually, because I'll be, I'll see you in September. And what will I buy? I want another pair of trousers. So I'll go there and buy a pair of trousers. And I thought, I'm going to buy a pair of trousers every time I go to Paris now and then I'll go to Charvet and get something.

[Sarah DeMolex]

I'm just wearing a Charvet shirt with a few be denim.

[Lauren Sherman]

Of course.

[Sarah DeMolex]

You are literally, like. Yeah, no, I, I got a new trousers, like maybe a couple, two, three. Yeah, two, three weeks ago there. And I just, it's, I was with friends. We all got the same, you know, like they had one in each size and we were three and we, we got the 30, I got the 34, one got the 36, one got the 38, I think, or something like that. The denim with the zip in the back in khaki.

[Lauren Sherman]

So good.

[Sarah DeMolex]

I bought shoes and I will go back and buy them in another color because they are the best shoes I've been wearing for a very long time. And yeah, just a shave shirt or a T shirt and, and that. And that's it. It's just the. I want to throw everything. I was saying that to my friend from LA yesterday. I want to throw everything. I, I, I mean, I will keep some stuff, but like, not to be that radical, but throw a lot of things and just really focus on, on old FB pieces and actual Phoebe pieces.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. I mean, when I look at my wardrobe, so much of what I still wear that I pull out that's old is from Celine, from trousers. I have many trousers. I have a really amazing blazer. And it, it does feel like these pieces will be similar. What shoes did you get? I'm so curious.

[Sarah DeMolex]

I, so I got them the cart. I, I call them the Cardinal shoes because they're very widow 14 to me. They, I got those like club, club little loafers, you know, with like a small heels, which is perfect. You know me, I'm quite small. I'm Very small and I got them in oxblood and that's very Cardinal. Cardinal. All, all French style. But I might get them in black. I try them in gray and they had a bit of a Margaret touch of vibe on me, which I quite quite like. But I was not, I was not sure. And then, you know, I think I will get them in black. I got them, I got the denim, I have an obsession for, for the zipper, for the denim zip. And I got it in that very strange acid wash.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes.

[Sarah DeMolex]

Fabric treatment. And I had, and I worn it not long ago and, and I just felt I had white T shirts, the trousers, a charvet belt and the shoes. And I never felt that comfortable in my life and confident. And also the trousers is very, remind me like some sterling ruby pieces, like the acid wash type of thing. And yeah, I was just, you know, just, just a white T shirt and I turn him from her with the zip and, and it was the most like kind of efficient in a way.

[Lauren Sherman]

Efficient. It's very sharp and efficient. And you said in your face. It does feel very hard in, in a way that, that is right for this time. I wanted to talk really quickly about the pricing because if you look in America, it seems crazy, but then when you go to the Europe, it's actually really. I don't want to use the word reasonable, but like it feels like a good value where it's not. Look, all this stuff is expensive and honestly, if it is of the quality that they claim it is, it should be expensive. I was looking at an old vogue from the 90s where they had all the prices of the dresses and I did the inflation and all these dresses would be six or $8,000 that were in Vogue. So the prices are probably. But how do you feel as someone who is very conscientious about pricing and how do you feel about how they are approaching it?

[Sarah DeMolex]

I am because we discussed that before, you and I. I am more like on the, the makers and manufacturing parts. Like I, I, I, I want to best like, I'm a freak of like where things are made and how they're made and I want to pay the right price for what I judge is the best quality. So it can be, it can be quite expensive. Expensive, but it can also be, you know, like certain Shetland sweeter or like certain cashmere from like men's, men's brand, like men's shop in London from Savile Row and it's made in Scotland and it's probably the best yard of cashmere. So I just, I'M just very conscious of that and I buy according to that. That's why I love Charvet so much. It's some of the best poplin they're using in the world. I mean the best popine and it's made in France and you're talking about a shirt that cost €500, which for me is in a way quite reasonable. The pricing of the Phoebe pieces.

[Lauren Sherman]

I.

[Sarah DeMolex]

Will say that jacket, the leather jacket and the coat, it's, it is quite expensive in a way. I don't know if it's expensive as the world, but like it's quite it, it's a budget, it's quite a budget and not everyone can. It's pricey. But then when the first edit was out, I remember flying to New York for work and I went to the Berdoff booth, like the little, the first one and it was just, it just opened like literally a few days before and I tried on the coat and I'm still thinking about it like almost, almost a year and I, yeah, a bit more la deter and I tried this black wool with a full 100% silk, pale yellow lining coat, double breasted. And it was the most amazing coat I think I ever tried on and I still regret it. I hope one day I will find it again, actually find the way how she will make it. She made another version, cashmere, but that was different but it was 3,500 and on the website in Europe, in France it was like 3, 3 or 3, 4,000 Euro. And if you look at other brands that are on the same kind of level on the market that would have been probably six, so five or six for wool, full silk lined coat. So it was that. There is things that I find more pricey. There are things that I find actually. Oh, you can buy a pair of really fancy, nice shoes with the heels for like €900 when like certain pairs of like ballerinas or flip flop are like 1500s for you know, other, other brands that we love it, it's not affordable for know, it's not like the most like, it's not, it's not neither, I don't think neither. It's the gold neither. It's like the, the, the, the where the market is neither. It's like possible with the price of like, you know, the way they're making stuff. Everything is in May in Italy or England or like so yeah, I, I, it's pricey but you can still treat yourself, which I really love and appreciate. I can go on the booth at the gala Fire yet. Or I've been to Devonstrate in London and be like, oh, you know what? I'm going to try that pair of shoes and maybe I can live with it. That's my treat today.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes, it is a treat. So, Sarah, final question for you.

[Sarah DeMolex]

Yes.

[Lauren Sherman]

Tell me as a stylist, how has this changed how you approach. How has her reemergence and her influence on the market changed how you approach your work? And has it at all or has it made you think differently? When you're thinking of like a concept for a shoot or, or something? Do you feel that her sort of being the person that's sort of giving us all an idea of how to be has. Has influenced your work at all?

[Sarah DeMolex]

Yeah, no, definitely. I mean, it first it reflected on. It reflected on me as it's reflected on you and I think on many women. I have quite a few friends, as I told you, who are wearing it a lot or try to get more pieces as, as they coming out. It really reflected on the question of. It's strange. It's really strange. It's a bit being like at the shrink, but to say that to you, but femininity and sexuality and I think she done that at, at Celine, but in a very different way. She, she. She was probably a different. At different stage in her life and different woman there, there. I think, as I said, it's way more straightforward. It's in your face. It's very punk. So I think I approached things thinking the more you kind of mess around, the more you, you know, you, you get stuff from it. You. I think she pushed people and women and customers to ask more questions. Would I wear that weird green coat where I wear a denim that open from, like, from my ankles to my bum? Like, do like, like how. What is it referencing? Like, I was at Dover street and, and I was on the booth and I saw that tiny George Michael in like frame portraits, very tiny in the corner. I was like, why is she putting this George Michael black and white picture that nobody can really notice on her books at Dover Street? It's just there is something. It's all about question. I feel she questioned herself and she questions other designers and she questions women and customers.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's easy to be in this industry and be a consumer of fashion and a lover of fashion and also be, you know, moving in the world of fashion and to feel like it's over and then something like this happens and you remember that there are really smart, creative people who push it and it, it reminds you why you why you wanted to. To be a part of it in the first place.

[Sarah DeMolex]

Yeah, completely. And. And also. Yeah, no, I. I completely agree. And she. She does things so differently. For me, it's so punk. The world is punk. She's British and I think she's quite punk. And for me, it's really punk. The way to. Even. Even if people had to, you know, were questioning or like, were saying, like, oh, is it the launch, like was really a success or not? For me it was. I was really like, this is so the moment you see something and you don't even know which photographer is behind which videographer is behind who shot what, who used what. Like, everything is mixed even in the last edit the collection D. Like there is so many different type of picture. It's sure it's not shot by the same person. All of them. It's quite unseen. Like, nobody worked this way. You have a product company, it's shot by this person and you have like this company and it's shot by this person and you have the creative who worked on it. She just mess around and. And it's very refreshing. And to finish maybe on that, if you don't have any other question or like things that we have to say on it. I think I remember when, when she launched her brand, she'd done an interview with Vanessa Friedman for the New York Times and she said, you can tell me the. All the story you want at the end of the day to quote and, and. And the stories are not necessarily going to send me the quote more. It. It is a quote. It is a great quote. And I'm so aligned with that, I think with the leaps we have and life. Sorry we have and how the world is and what we're experiencing and living and we navigate through that, all of us together. Eight billion people in our industry. To see that done this way is quite, quite refreshing and make you want to push things further.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, Sarah, I think that's a great way to end. I appreciate you coming on. Come back another time. We'll have a longer conversation.

[Sarah DeMolex]

Thank you for having me. I mean, it's always like our back conversation and we have them suddenly out there. It's really nice.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's super fun. You're the best.

[Sarah DeMolex]

Thank you.

[Lauren Sherman]

Have a good rest of your of your day.

[Sarah DeMolex]

You too. Thank you.

[Lauren Sherman]

Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy and director of editorial operations Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman, and Bob Tabador.