Indie Squeeze

Summary

Fashion People – “Indie Squeeze”

Host: Lauren Sherman (Puck)
Guest: Alice Cavanagh (Fashion Journalist/Industry Insider)
Date: June 16, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck’s Fashion and Beauty Memo “Line Sheet,” is joined by industry insider Alice Cavanagh for a lively, inside-the-industry conversation. They delve into the future of the iconic brand Moschino, the existential challenges faced by independent fashion brands in 2026, the pressures of consolidation within fashion, shifts in media and retail landscapes, evolving consumer habits, and share personal reflections and inside stories about Paris fashion life. Along the way, they touch on notable cultural moments and designers, offering an honest, nuanced look at what it takes to survive—and stand out—in today’s fashion world.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Shopping Habits and Paris Fashion Life

• Lauren and Alice open with personal updates about their shopping habits, the challenges of dressing for different cities, and the ever-shifting flow of boutiques and experiential fashion in Paris.
• The transformation of shopping culture: Both discuss how their consumption has shifted from impulsive buying to thoughtful, investment purchases, influenced by experience, geography, and affordability.
  • Alice: “We used to buy Miu Miu in our early 20s—how funny is that? … Now, I buy like four or five things a year that I really, really think about.” (06:13)

Fashion Adaptation in Different Cities

• Differences between LA, Paris, New York, and Milan in terms of wardrobe needs—Paris in particular being a “walking city” affecting shoe choices.
  • Lauren: “The biggest difference is shoes… in LA, I started to wear like three and a half inch heels… [but in Paris] I need to figure out like a soft sandal that’s not going to give me blisters.” (10:05)

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2. Moschino: Creative and Financial Flux

• Designer Departures: Adrian Appiolaza’s short stint and departure as Moschino’s creative director.
  • Lauren: “He left on Friday. That was his last day. Pretty short stint, which is not unusual these days.” (11:52)
• Financial Restructuring: Moschino’s parent company’s urgent need for a new investor due to heavy debts.
  • A new CEO—a behind-the-scenes “operations guy”—was recently brought on to spearhead a transformation.
  • Likely acquisition by Oxy Capital, an asset management firm committed to paying off debts.

Moschino’s Relevance and Brand Identity

• Alice: “It’s never been wearable… he [Jeremy Scott] was really good at creating a story and a point of view. But how many people were buying it? It was certainly of a moment and that moment feels like it’s passed.” (16:09)
• Both hosts question the core of Moschino’s modern identity and its relevance in a saturated market, especially given secondhand and vintage options.
  • Lauren: “They just lack value and I think it’s going to get harder and harder.” (17:40)

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3. The Indie Brand Dilemma

• Structural Challenges: The existential question for indie brands—do they need to exist? And if so, how do they survive in a market consolidated by luxury groups?
  • Alice: “It’s not just about the brand ecosystem, it’s the whole industry. Like… what media is going to cover your brand and support you? … E-commerce is also completely collapsing.” (21:03)
• Media Monopolies & Press Challenges:
  • Major outlets demand exclusives, making it nearly impossible for new designers to get sustained press.
  • Retail landscape is thin—fewer indie boutiques, less discovery.
• The Survival Model: Many young, talented designers may have no healthy path except to join big houses and collect a stable salary.
  • “You’re not taught how to be a business person. And that’s part of the journey now.” (22:41)

Cultural Shift in Consumption

• Even designers often wear basics (e.g., Levi’s and t-shirts), not fashion brands, reflecting a cultural move away from fashion as personal statement.

  • Alice: “Even people on the inside aren’t really crazy about fashion anymore.” (23:05)

• Generational/structural realities:

  • Designers like Meryll Rogge juggle multiple roles for survival.
    • Alice: “She has her own label, that great knitwear brand… and obviously Marni… Is that really what you’re aspiring to? It’s the personal choice.” (25:19)

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4. Consolidation vs. Creativity

• The dominance of luxury conglomerates like LVMH and Kering is both a help and a hindrance.
  • The LVMH Prize offers real opportunities, but, as Alice notes, “It already has a monopoly on the industry… when there’s only one thing doing that, it’s a problem.” (18:58)
• Lauren: “Do you kind of just let it be what it is and accept the fact that these big groups run everything, or do you push back on that?” (19:20)

Finding the Right Scale — “Natural Size”

• Brands must decide between chasing mass-market expansion and thriving as cult favorites; the hosts praise those who stick to excellence in a small niche.
  • Alice: “There’s something to be said for just finding what you want to say and doing it so well… If you’re trying to say something to everyone, then you end up not really saying anything at all.” (29:24)
  • Lauren: “The key is, growth is good—it’s not, it’s… there is a point where you get to a size where you’re the right size and you can keep innovating, but you’re not beholden to a particular shoe or what have you.” (30:17)

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5. Paris Retail and The Charvet Phenomenon

• Charvet (and La Mer) as Case Study: The paradox of “anti-hype” heritage brands becoming quietly buzzy thanks to global attention while struggling to preserve their sense of exclusivity and high-touch service.
  • Alice: “I wanted to write that story [on Charvet] because I felt like it was having a moment, which is funny for a brand that has existed for so long… really focused on attentive customer service… how they cope with crowd management will be interesting.” (33:25)
• Discuss how areas like the Marais have become “overpopulated”—a festival atmosphere that changes the fabric of luxury shopping and why some brands prefer to move to calmer districts like Palais Royale.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the existential threat to indie brands:

  • “Do we need it? … Is it really relevant? Do people feel really attached to it? And is there enough there to really save and fight for? Because it is a fight.” —Alice (16:09)

• On designers’ shifting roles:

  • “Probably their best hope is to go and get a job in a house and make a good salary, you know, behind the scenes. Because… you’re not taught how to be a business person.” —Alice (22:41)

• Jonathan Anderson as Fashion’s Singular Talent:

  • “There are probably five people in the world that can do what he does… the stress, the multitasking, the wild ambition… quite a singular personality.” —Alice (26:22)

• On niche vs. mass positioning:

  • “If you’re trying to say something to everyone, then you end up not really saying anything at all.” —Alice (29:24)

• On Paris luxury retail’s ‘line’ problem:

  • “Queuing’s a big thing outside Paris boutiques at the moment, which I think is almost the opposite of luxury.” —Alice (33:25)

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Important Timestamps

• 05:30 – Lauren and Alice reconnect; open with personal style and shopping updates.
• 11:52 – Moschino’s internal shakeup and financial crisis discussion starts.
• 16:09 – Relevance of Moschino and challenge for legacy brands.
• 18:58 – Questioning the monopoly of luxury groups (LVMH, etc.).
• 21:03 – Challenges for indie brands: press, retail, and e-commerce.
• 22:55 – The culture of fashion designers not wearing ‘fashion’ any more.
• 25:01 – The new career model for emerging designers (multi-hyphenates).
• 26:22 – Jonathan Anderson and the stress of modern creative directors.
• 29:24 – The “natural size” philosophy for brands.
• 32:15 – The rise of Charvet as an anti-hype destination.
• 35:02 – Heritage brands and the challenge of expanding the client base without losing core values.
• 36:57 – The impact of location and crowding on Paris retail (Marais, Palais Royale).
• 39:24 – Closing warm exchange about the reality of Parisian life, plans to visit the public pool.

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Episode Tone & Takeaways

• Language & Tone: Collegial, candid, lightly irreverent, but deeply informed and nuanced. Both hosts alternate between industry-insider analysis and personal anecdotes, making what might appear as “inside baseball” accessible and relatable.
• Takeaway: The fashion industry in 2026 is at a defining crossroads. Old models for independent brands seem increasingly unsustainable; even established names like Moschino aren’t guaranteed relevance. Consolidation and the dominance of luxury groups present both opportunity and peril, while retail and media landscapes contract. Yet, niches and anti-hype heritage brands offer possible blueprints for survival—emphasizing authenticity, intimacy, and restraint over hype and scale.

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Listen If You Want:

• An up-to-the-minute, unvarnished view of fashion’s internal crises and evolutions.
• Ground-level perspectives from two of the industry’s most connected writers.
• Fresh insights into the realities of running a fashion business—in Paris or worldwide—in 2026.

Transcript

[A]

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Please support our show and let them know we sent you. That's r u l a.com fashion. You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget. Wedding season is officially in full swing, and with it comes the challenge of decoding dress codes and finding the perfect outfit for every celebration. From black tie to cocktail, understanding the invitation is the key to getting dressed with confidence and Macy's it easy to find a look that fits both the occasion and personal style. This summer's wedding guest trends bring a fresh perspective to event dressing. Asymmetrical necklines are everywhere, creating soft, sculptural movement. Sheer and flowy fabrics add a light, romantic quality that's perfect for warm weather celebrations. And modern crochet has been reimagined into elevated fine knit designs that feel sophisticated rather than casual. Accessories complete the look, from statement earrings and strappy sandals to subtle finishing touches that tie everything together. And for those re wearing outfits, switching up accessories can completely transform the overall feel, making one piece work for multiple events. For anyone still unsure about what to wear, Macy's personal Stylists are available to help answer dress code questions and build a head to toe look. These sessions are free and first time appointments include 20% off book one today@macy's.com personal stylist. Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Fox Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet and today with me on the show is Alice Kavanaugh. We're talking the future of Mosquito what it takes for an indie brand to survive in 2026 the rise of New York Knicks Benchwarmer, Tyler Kolek and so much more. Happy Tuesday everyone. Hope you're having a great week. By the time you read this if all or hear this, hear this, if all goes to plan, I'll be in London. I'll be headed to a preview of Hermes's new store. Guess it's in the old Asprey store which I have weirdly been to. They've owned it for a long time, but they only were able to get in there recently. I haven't read the FT story. That's like where they had the big exclusif. Exclus if you work at Page Six. But I need to. I'll read it before I get there. So I'm excited for that and I'm going. They're doing like some Tracy Emin thing that I'm gonna go to. And then tonight is the store opening and I'm having dinner at Vesper, new restaurant that I want to try with my colleague Alex Bigler from Puck because tomorrow we're doing one of our famous dinners with Shop Mai at Cafe Deco. I'm very excited. I'll have more on that in line sheet and on the podcast on Friday. In other news, there's a lot happening in M and A at the moment and I have some details on some sales processes that are happening and some creative director change ups. I'll be in Milan at the end of the week for a bit of men's fashion and I hope to see you. Also, Alison and I were going to talk about New York Knicks benchwarmer Tyler Kolik, who is. You got us a friend of mine who's like a real New Yorker, whatever you think that is. I'm not going to talk about the can. I'm excited for everybody. It's great. I'm not, I'm not getting involved in this. I don't, I'm not gonna act like I care. Like I, I do care because when I was 13 years old, I was obsessed with the New York Knicks. I was played basketball and loved them and loved John Starks and Patrick Ewing and I always felt bad for them. They didn't win. I'm really happy for this team but I like, I don't wish I was in New York. I feel bad for the people who weren't. Anyway, my friend who's very into New, who's a New Yorker who's very into New York was like, you need to look at this Tyler Colette guy. Apparently he didn't like play at all during the playoffs, but he's so into fashion. He's extremely cute. And there's this hilarious video with him talking about his clothes. He's wearing like a Rolex. He calls it a rolly. And he makes this comment that's like something like, I'm not dressed, I'm dries or something. But he says it in like, he. He sounds ridiculous. Anyway, it's very funny, but it's just hilarious to me that this person is getting attention, but he is adorable and looks like a movie star. So you don't have to be good, you just have to be cute. I think that's the lesson. Anyway, Alison and I were going to talk about it and we didn't. But we talked about a bunch of other stuff and she's amazing and I'm sure she'll be back on the pod soon, so I hope you enjoy it. Alice Kavanaugh, welcome to Fashion People.

[B]

Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.

[A]

I would ask you how your weekend was, but I got to see you. We went on a little date.

[B]

I know. It feels funny doing this without a glass of wine, actually. I feel like we're always just catching up in a. Yeah. In a very different environment. But this is. This is just as lovely.

[A]

It's just as lovely. Sometimes I do have a glass of wine before I do this. Depends on what time of day. Sometimes I'm not recording till like 11pm at night here. So sometimes that happens.

[B]

Well, that's very much of you, you know, just to pour yourself a glass of wine. Why not?

[A]

Why not? So one thing we didn't discuss is did you buy anything this weekend? Are you. Are you a big shopper?

[B]

I'm actually not. You know, I think it's really funny because, you know, when you've worked in fashion for a very long time and you come into the industry as someone who loves clothes, which was definitely my background, I used to shop all the time. And I think one of that part of that is to do with like, it used to be way more affordable. Like, the biggest joke between me and my friends is like, we used to buy Miu Miu in our early 20s. Like, how funny is that? Because you could go in there and get a pair of shoes for like €350 or whatever. Yeah. And then also I just think that at, you know, people are spending in other places. I now buy, you know, travel experiences, food like everyone else. But I do, I look at clothes, I like going to store. I'm always looking online at things. You know, there are things that I'd like to buy that don't. But I do, you know, I buy like four or five things a year that I really, really think about now as opposed to those like fun kind of shopping outings I used to do.

[A]

Yeah. I have not gotten over shopping. I think being here in Paris where I don't have to like get stuff for a house. Yes. And we have, you know, it's, we're renting a furnished apartment. It feels a little freer to spend. But also. Yeah, I definitely buy fewer things that are. And think about them. I had a really nice. And I didn't, we didn't discuss this on Saturday. I had a really nice time. I went to Mariam Nasir's shop in the 10th. I see that. Yeah, it was so lovely because it was her shop in New York, which closed, I don't know, probably six months ago or a year ago was really important to me when I lived in New York for 15 years. And I would go, you know, once a month just to see and a lot of discovery. Like she was the first store to have jacquemus from what I remember, Christacea, but also like in the early days, like three is four and things like that. And I also just love her, her clothes and her accessories and it was just really nice. If anybody's coming to town for market or the men's shows or couture, it's worth going up there. It is a bit of a hike. It took me a while from where I live to get there on the train.

[B]

It's a funny location. Like I'm interested into what as to why she chose that location. But in Paris there are quite a few like off the street front boutiques which I think is quite nice. Like quite often you can go to places like Christa Sea is one of them where you make an appointment and you go in and you've got to walk upstairs and it's not this kind of shop front experience. It's a little bit more secret.

[A]

Yeah, it's, it's, it's really nice. But yeah, it's just, it was a good, good reminder that there's, there's a lot going on here. I did buy two things, but Becky Malinsky says I'm on a freeze. So let's not talk about it too much.

[B]

This is normal when you move cities because your wardrobe changes, right. Like how have your, how has your dressing since you moved here? Because you have like a whole new life and it's Paris. I mean Paris is a walking city. Like New York is. But you were in la, so it's really different.

[A]

Yeah. I would say that what I tend to do is go shopping when I'm here. So I end up buying things that work in New York and Paris and London and Milan more than anywhere else. Like my nice clothes are for when I go to fashion Week or when I'm traveling for work and then in la, I wear jeans and T shirts and sweatshirts all the time. Or jeans and a blazer. Like today I'm wearing. This is probably the last day I'll be able to wear a jacket as a shirt. I'm wearing a lightweight blazer and jeans and heels. And I would wear that to like meetings in LA for sure. But I would say the biggest difference is shoes because I had gotten. We were in LA for five years and I had started to wear like three and a half inch heels.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And a couple four inch and that. Like I'm wearing the almond toe shoes from the row that everybody has that have like a half inch heel. And I have a little, you know, they're, it's, they're not comfortable. I need to. And I was kept thinking today because it's like 80 degrees here, I need to figure out like a soft sandal that's not going to give me blisters. It's just. So the shoe thing is the tricky part for me. I just don't know what to do.

[B]

Like, it's impossible, I think unless you're getting a taxi from A to B. There's always a cobblestone or dog poo, which is everywhere in Paris. And so, yes, you need to be able to like maneuver easily. Yeah.

[A]

Yes. So it's been a bit of a slow news cycle. Last week was the slowest week. As I mentioned on the podcast last week that the slowest week I've experienced since I got to puck this week is gonna be busier. There was a lot of, I think also I had more time to talk to people last week. So I just was like, oh, there's actually a lot going on and there's gonna be from what I can tell, like a good amount of M and A stuff happening, like companies being bought and sold or new investors, that sort of thing. And the story I stumbled upon this weekend was that Moschino, there's a bunch of changes there. So the designer, Adrian, who has been there since I guess the end of his first collection was 2024, I think it's Adrian Appelatsa. Is that how you pronounce it? Oh, no, it's Adrian Appealatsa. He came from Loewe. He left on Friday. That was his last day. Yeah.

[B]

And you know, because, I mean, it's a pretty short stint, which is not unusual these days. But Jeremy was there for 10 years. Right?

[A]

So, yes, I think the big thing is that ife the owners of Moschino and Moschino's, their kind of biggest brand is in the midst of getting a new owner. So they are in a lot of debt. They owe their vendors a lot of money and they're in a lot of debt. They owe their vendors a lot of money and they have been trying to find a new investor or they are going to go into. They've already been in restructuring. So it's not a good situation there. They have a new investor. It's this asset management firm called Oxy Capital. It's an asset management firm that agreed like a month ago or what have you to buy the business and pay off all the debt. The deadline for the final offer was today. And I think like, ife if someone else came in with a better offer then they could do that. But I think they pretty much have no choice than to go with these people. They also hired a new CEO who started June 3rd and he is an operations guy. His last company he was at a textile firm. He's not a known executive in fashion, but he's like a behind. He's known behind the scenes and he's

[B]

part of the group.

[A]

Yeah, he started June 3rd and I think he just started to make his last job. He worked at a textile company and his title was Chief Transformation Officer. So my guess is he's like, I'm gonna get in here and like do stuff real fast. So who knows? The new designers are supposedly these guys from that brand Sune, who left that brand at the in September of last year. And they're very like, you know, Moschino's all about satirizing the fashion industry. They bring a lot of humor to their, to their work and sort of self referential. They did an auction their last show and they auctioned themselves off. And you know, they're fun, they're great guys. I'm still doing the reporting on whether or not they are actually the ones that are landing there. But from all the information I've gotten, that's the case whether you're renting or paying a mortgage. One of your biggest monthly expenses should be working harder for you. That's where BILT comes in. BILT is the membership for where you live that rewards you with points on every housing payment wherever you live. It started out rewarding members on their rent, but now as of 2026, BILT members can also earn points on mortgage payments and every housing payment earns you points you can use toward flights with top travel partners like United and Hyatt, Lyft rides, Amazon.com purchases, and so much more. Personally, I'd love to redeem my points toward a room at a Hyatt for my next vacation, but here's what I think is the most underrated part. BILT members also get access to a neighborhood concierge. It can make restaurant reservations, book fitness classes, and find new local spots, all while being rewarded and more than 45,000 merchant partners. It's like having a personal assistant baked into where you live. It's simple. Being a renter and now owning a home is better. With Bilt, join the membership for where you live at joinbuilt.com fashion that's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T.com fashion make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you History

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[A]

I'm curious, like what's your relationship with Moschino? Do you think about it ever?

[B]

I mean, I think. Well, I think about it through the lens of Jeremy Scott. To be honest. I feel like the history of the brand was like that. It was very 80s coded because I know it started in the 80s and I feel like when he was appointed, what it must have been 10 years obviously. Well, 2013 maybe if we say 10 years after he, before he left and he was like a bit of, he was a really big fashion figure, right? Because he just was always part of this wider cultural conversation. My memory of him when maybe I first wrote about him was that he was one of those first people that really jumped on collaborations and trends and he seemed to have his finger on like a wide part of the cultural conversation as a, as a designer. But like it's never been wearable. It's never been something I've thought about in terms of product, I think he was really good at creating a story and a point of view. But then, you know, how. How many people were buying it? I don't know. It was certainly of a moment, and that moment feels like it's passed. So then what is the Moschino identity that they want to keep and, you know, and how. How will it feel like it's needed today? I mean, that's the biggest. That's the biggest point for me with so many brands, like, do we need it? I mean. I mean, I don't want to say that about Moschino in general, but, like, I. I think I feel that way often about a lot of things. Is it really, you know, relevant? Do people feel really attached to it? And is there enough there to really save and fight for? Because it is a fight. Right? So, yeah, that's my. That's my initial thought.

[A]

Yeah. I think that that is the question all of these brands need to be asking themselves, like, why do I need to exist? And maybe the sooner guys can think of a reason because they're smart and have interesting ideas, but to be honest, like, it doesn't increasingly feels like there's so much in the market, especially because of secondhand, and we have access to so much more, and we live our lives so differently that, like, I feel this way about a lot of the major brands, too. They just. They lack of value, and I think it's going to get harder and harder. There was just a new class of cfta, Vogue Fashion Fund people popping up for this year, and it has a lot of brands I really love, like Emily, Don Long and Li Li. And some of those brands are also in the LVMH Prize, which. The LVMH Prize is amazing. It's. You get a lot of mentorship. If you win, you get a good amount of money, and you also get, like, sort of put into the LVMH system, which is essentially where most people make a living. If you want to make a living as a fashion designer, you want to work at one of these big groups.

[B]

It's the only place now that really makes a difference for a young designer, I think, which is also problematic, Lauren, because it's like, you know, they already have a monopoly on the industry, and then now it's like, you know, now that it's. It's. I mean, I don't want to, you know, take away from how positive it is, but then also when it. When there's just only one thing doing that, it's a problem.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It is. I mean, this is the, this is the existential question of like a consolidated business is do you kind of just let it be what it is and accept the fact that these big groups run everything, or do you push back on that? And I guess my question for you is, like, is there. Because, like the, the Sune guys, they left. Their, their, their business is owned by Vanguards, which is this brand management firm run by the husband of the Nanushka designer, who I think his name's Peter. I've met him before. He's super interesting guy. And it's like partially backed by the, the Hungarian government.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

So, which is. Yeah, it's very interesting, but it's like Aaron Sunay, or it might be Sunay, I think it's Sunay and then Nanushka, but they left at that time and kind of there's all this stuff happening right now with like all the brands that were owned by tomorrow, like Martin Rose and Coperni and all of that. And like, I think it's just really hard these days to, to have an independent brand. Even in America it's a little different because Americans consume so much and if you are smart, you can kind of manage through it. But I don't know, it's just the, it's so everything. The cost of raw materials is so expensive. It just feels like there's no place right now to launch something new. And if you do either you have. You're kind of told, well, manage your expectations. It's never going to be much. Or you're told, like, get a job somewhere else. Yeah, you could do this thing.

[B]

But I have so many thoughts. I could talk about this for a long time. I think, like, the biggest thing there, first of all, is like, it's not just about the brand ecosystem, it's the whole industry. Right? Like there's. It's not like you're creating a brand and then it needs to just find a customer. It's also like, what media is going to cover your brand and support you? What retailer is going to buy your brand and actually, you know, give you a shop front where people can discover it? You know, E commerce is also completely collapsing. So it's like, it's not just, you know, does a brand need to exist, but then there's nothing to support it anymore? And I find that with stories like I'll go and visit a young designer and, and it's so hard for them to get any meaningful press. There's a monopoly in media right now because everyone wants the exclusive So a young designer has one story somewhere, no one else will cover it. And then, you know, where are the retailers? Miriam is a great example that she was this platform for young brands, really cool brands that were part of, you know, a discovery process. And there aren't many stores like that anymore either. And so I think it's like you either have, like, an amazing concept, like a totem who've just come in so strong, and they've got a great direct to consumer concept, Then they're going to retail. They've built, like, a brand story, but this model of, like, a really young, very, very talented, creative designer, probably their best hope is to go and get a job in a house and, like, make a good salary, you know, behind the scenes, for sure. Because. For sure. And also these. You know, when you're a designer and you come up through Central St. Martin's or something, you're also not taught to how to be a business person. And that's part of the. Part of the journey now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The other thing that was thinking about the shipping thing is like, you know, what are people buying today? And like, one of, like, a story that just sprung to mind when I was telling you about how I shop now was like, I think the New York Times, maybe Nicole. No, not Nicole.

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

Vanessa did a story at the New York Times on, like, the designer debuts last year. And one of the questions, it was

[A]

like a little popcorn, which was a great story.

[B]

It was great. And one of the questions was, what do you wear? Or something like this. And there wasn't a single designer at any of these houses that wore a fashion brand. They're all in Levi's and T shirts. And it's like that, to me, was so telling. It's like, even people on the inside aren't really crazy about fashion anymore.

[A]

No, Marc Jacobs is the exception.

[B]

He's the exception. There was one other. I can't pull it up now because it's like 10 months ago, but it really stuck in my mind. I was like, this is hilarious, you know?

[A]

Yeah, that piece was so great. And we've discussed it on here before. It was extremely hard to find it on. On the New York Times website. And I feel like they need to, like, pin it. It was honestly, I think the best thing Vanessa has done the whole time she's worked there. It was like, all 12 of them answering questions about who they are as people, like, what they eat, like you said, I think what they were to sleep in, like, stuff that is so personal. And we didn't need to hear about their vision because you could kind of see from what they said, it was really well done. But I think you're right. It's just a different. Fashion's playing a different role in the culture today. And it does, but it does kind of bum me out a little bit that there isn't, there's just. And look, you can't go back. And I'm not a. I'm just not a person who's like, it was better back then because every, every generation has its stuff and things are much better in some ways for creative people than they used to be. So I, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna say it was better back then, but I do think that there's just less of a incentive to create your own stuff now than there used to be because it's just really hard to live. And we also value things like being able to go out to eat and live in a nice apartment and things like that more than I think we did 30 years ago.

[B]

And if you model of a young designer, like, I never know how to say her name, but I should. Is it Meryl Rogue? Do you pronounce the e at the end?

[A]

I think it might be Meryl. Meryl Raj, Meryl Rose. But honestly, I don't know who I

[B]

have interviewed before, so. Apologies.

[A]

She's amazing. I love, we love her, but.

[B]

Right. She's like juggling how many balls right now just to basically, you know, she has her own label. She has that great knitwear brand that the word, the name escapes me. And then obviously Marnie and it's like, yeah, you know, if you're a graduate, is that really what you're aspiring to? It's the personal choice. Yeah. But that's the model that seems to be, you know, one of the main options.

[A]

Yeah. And Meryl is, I believe, 42 or 43. So, like, the interesting thing about her is she didn't start her own brand for several years. She worked at Dries and maybe some other places and she started her own brand and got Marnie pretty quickly after that. And so it's an interesting thing too, of. At least she's a grown up and knows how to manage herself, I think. And it's also interesting to think of someone of our generation wanting to start a brand because, like, I mean, not that you could ever recommend it, but now it just seems like totally during

[B]

COVID Actually, I remember interviewing her during lockdown and it was the first lockdown, so. Yeah. But yeah, she's obviously extremely talented as well. And I think that's just the thing now is it's just become so competitive. You have to be so, so good at what you do, you know, I mean, Jonathan Anderson's a great example. Like, there is probably five people in the world that can do what he does. And I mean, in terms of, like, the stress management and the multitasking and just the. The wild ambition of it all, like, that's quite a singular personality, I think, that can take that on. I mean, I love that meme of him, like, dragging on a cigarette on the stand. Did you see that?

[A]

Is that from. Oh, yes, yes, yes. The video of him smoking. And it's just like it's his last

[B]

breath and it's like, yeah, that's maybe what life is like when you're doing, you know, 100 collections a year.

[A]

Did you see the Gus Van Sant photos of him in Le Mans?

[B]

I did not.

[A]

In M. Oh, yeah, sorry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, they are very powerful.

[B]

Yeah, they are. They are.

[A]

I was like, wow, this is really capturing someone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the middle of something. They were really vulnerable and I thought they were haunting in a good way. They're beautiful.

[B]

And he's. He's a really important spokesperson right now because I think he does talk about how challenging it is. Like, I've noticed that his interviews since his appointment have been very on, like, you know, honest to a point, obviously very media savvy, but, like, it's not this empty kind of like, everything's great and he's sort of happy to deep dive and talk about, you know, what it's really like. And I think that's quite valuable.

[A]

Yeah, I think he's unique in that way that he understands the importance of the media and communicating. I mean, not that I'm sure some of it bothers him, but he's unafraid to engage. And that, I think, is rare of someone of his generation also, and also a designer, because usually they. They're very sensitive feeling people. And so a lot of times they just don't. They only want to do the point you made about the exclusives thing. I think, like, it is a shame because it does limit the amount. Like, we. These. These brands are talked about so much on social media, and so you feel like you hear about them all the time, but you often don't get. It's a very opaque way of talking about them and it's projecting a lot onto them. But you don't get. The younger brands especially, maybe don't get as much conversation because they are like every. Every outlet Demands an exclusive. And look, I've been on the other side of it. I understand to an extent. But on the other hand, if you're good, you, you should be able to pull something no one else pulls. And it's an odd time to be like, putting yourself out there as a designer. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, you would know more about this because you're way more in the backend business. But like, I think the scale of things is really interesting. It's like, do you need to take over the world or do you just want like, you know, a really tight knit of dedicated customers who are just going to come to you over and over again like that to me, seems to be where things get a bit tricky too. It's like there's something to be said for just, you know, finding what you want to say and doing it so well. It's like I quite like one product. Brands that just do like their one thing and they're so good at it and they just nail it and then you just go back to them for that thing over and over again. Like Ruby Rose is a great example right now in Paris, that store has just gone gangbusters. And I think, you know, it's just so tight. And I think if you're trying to say something to everyone, then you end up not really saying anything at all. And I think that's what we see when there's this big growth in a brand. It's like it loses its way.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I met with the CEO of Husbands a few weeks ago and he was saying like, they're thinking about natural size, which I think is a very interesting. You would never hear that in America, but honestly, in most parts of the fashion industry, probably not Milan either. But I think that's the key is like, growth is good. It's not, it's. Sometimes there are brands that kind of get in their own way and they lose out on the, the natural growth that they, they should have because there is a demand for the product for whatever reason. They don't have the right distribution or the right marketing or, or the, or they have all that stuff. But the products are like. Yeah, but then there is a point where you get to a size where you're the right size and you can keep innovating, which is the only way you stay rele, but that you're not like beholden to a particular shoe or what have you.

[B]

So good, so good, so good.

[A]

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[A]

One company I've been thinking about a lot is Charvet, which you are the author of that amazing the People of Charvet article in the New York Times. And I went to pick up, I did like Demi custom and I went to pick them up on Friday and I'd never done the custom before, which is only I think €200 more expensive than a shirt. I own a lot of Charvet shirts. I love them. I've been buying them probably for like 10 years or something, not, not super long. But I had never bothered doing the custom before. And when I went in it was just like totally insane. And I asked one of them, like, is this the Chanel effect? And they were like, well, sort of. But more just everybody, like it's just become a thing. I'm curious what you think is like a per. You've lived in, in Paris for a long time. You've written a lot about Charvet. Like, what do you think's gonna happen with that? Because it's obviously become a sort of central brand for a lot of like fashion enthusiasts who go through Paris at least and, and buy that kind of traditional stuff.

[B]

Yeah, it's interesting. I think I wanted to write that story because I, I felt like it was having a moment, which is funny for a brand that has existed for so long and been so popular on a local, on a local level. So I wanted to go back to like, who's been shopping there for a long time. What are their weird, quirky habits? Like, I had interviewed this guy, Eve Ville. He's a very well known gynecologist in his like late 60s and he has like 50 bow ties. And so it was about like maybe finding a bit more of a, you know, not just a brand profile, which to be honest, is my least favorite story to write. And I think that when I Did that interview, which was earlier this year. The store wasn't that busy then. And I remember Anne Marie Colban, who's. Who's the owner with her brother. Really was like, everyone's welcome. I asked her, will you ever have a queue outside? Because queuing's a big thing outside of Paris boutiques at the moment, which I think is like almost the opposite of luxury. Like having to stand in a queue to spend, you know, two k on a handbag. But anyway. And she's like, we'll never have a queue, you know. But then, you know how that actually manifests now that it's really busy and I haven't been in. There is a different story because I think they really focused on very attentive customer service. You know, you go upstairs and you do your made to measure. I just think it's having a moment. It will probably continue to always appeal. I don't think it's gonna die off or anything. But yeah, how they. How they cope with like, crowd management will be interesting because they don't wanna lose this feeling of like, you're walking in and you're really welcome and, you know, you've discovered something as well, right? A little bit, yeah.

[A]

I think it will dissipate. I don't think it's gonna be as. I mean, I could be wrong. This could be just the beginning. But yeah, I've had that experience going into La Mer the last two times where the first time I had to wait in a line where I was like, what? Like, yeah, I'm not waiting in a lot. Like, no offense, I love La Mer. I think it's an incredible brand. But it felt. And it wasn't on purpose, it was just. And then when I went in both times, and then the next time I went, I was like, I just want this shirt.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they were like, you're gonna have to wait like a half an hour. We don't have a dedicated. And I was like, guys, you need to figure this out. There aren't that many people in the store. And I don't need a dedicated person. Like, I need someone to. Most of the people who shop at La Mercury, like, at one point, my half my wardrobe was La Mer. Like, it's a thing. I don't think they're trying to create hype. I think it may be what their clientele. I think they probably have a lot of Japanese and other clients from Asia coming through and they expect a certain kind of service that westerners don't. I don't know for sure. But like that is the vibe that I get when I go in there now. And I think it's really complicated when you, you are like a special brand for a certain group of people and then suddenly more people know about it and you want to be inclusive. And how do you, how do you manage that? I think with, with the Charvet, my. My like sense is that there will be people who think it's great and buy stuff for like two seasons and then they're like, I have enough, moving on. And then the people who were there before will still be there. And when I went through, it was really fun. Gilles, Ben there and he. We talked, right? Yeah, it was very cute. He was like good choices. Because I was trying to.

[B]

I had a parallel, parallel thought like when did this and because I feel like that brand is anti hype.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like that is definitely not something they are entertaining or encouraging. Well, it's a problem with the Marais now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think it's this area that has become so overpopulated, especially on the weekend. It's like a music festival now when you walk through there, you know, even people, friends that live in the Marais have left the Marais because it's just not possible to sort of have a normal life in that neighborhood anymore. And they've just opened in Palais Royale. And I know the brand sees that like a choir to destination, which I think it is. It's like those, you know, beautiful galleries. You can sit in the park, take your time and that. I think that was a really smart move because it's going to be a different customer that goes there and it's probably going to be you that goes there.

[A]

Yeah. The Palais Royale retail situation is fascinating to me because apparently it's extremely expensive to rent spaces there. And so it's like a. I think the Papier Royale, the Rondin, that guy, his paper shop is really interesting. He has the money, he can be there. But it's very quiet. And so it is a thing of. For a brand like La Mer that already has a close following, people will travel there too. But it's. And Rick Owens is there and has been for years. But that's a really interesting retail. I assumed it was not expensive because it's so quiet and there's no foot traffic. But then I was told that it's like crazy expensive and a big investment.

[B]

So it's such an iconic destination and it has that history of being a shopping gallery. Yeah, I mean Ram Dane had a space, you know, he. He had the shop before that shop and then he sort of revamped it as the Royale. Yes.

[A]

No. Was it like the color shapes thing that he moved to the Marine?

[B]

That wouldn't have worked in the Palais Royale.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So he's smart. He's like, you know, and. Yeah, let's just see. I mean, yeah, I think it's a really beautiful destination and I think, you know, if there are more brands in that quiet kind of shopping experience vibe moving there, it's super smart if they can afford it.

[A]

Yeah. And it's also near, like, where the Bodhi shop is. That whole area of Paris is interesting to me. There's a lot going on and lots of good restaurants and coffee shops and things. And, like, a lot of young people seem to live there. Like young people with money and no children. This is so fun. It's such a pleasure. I'm looking forward to going to the public pool with you someday soon.

[B]

The least fashionable place, but yeah, it's great. Thank you so much for having me. I feel like that went so quickly.

[A]

Thanks for being here and come back soon.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you. Bye.

[A]

Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. The show is produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, producer Maya Tribbett, and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, Kelly Turner and Bob Tabador. Pandora Jewelry brings the sparkle to your summer now with even better prices. Enjoy up to 50% off select styles from personalized pieces to must have favorites made for the summer. Timeless designs that shine with you through every moment, wherever the summer takes you. Shop in store or online now through July 5th. Terms and conditions apply. Visit pandora.net for details.