Made in Los Angeles

Summary

Fashion People – “Made in Los Angeles”

Host: Lauren Sherman (Puck)
Guest: Avery Trufelman (Articles of Interest)
Date: August 11, 2026
Theme: Deep-diving into the current pulse of the fashion industry, focusing on the unique culture of Los Angeles Apparel and American Apparel, the evolution and influence of The Row, and the shifting global landscape, from Copenhagen to Paris.

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Episode Overview

Lauren Sherman and fashion podcast luminary Avery Trufelman convene for a lively and insightful episode centering on the enduring power of LA's homegrown apparel industry, the complex legacy of Dov Charney's American/Los Angeles Apparel, the cult and commercial conundrum of The Row, and the international flavor of fashion cities like Copenhagen. Interwoven with personal stories, critical analysis, and a keen eye on both history and current trends, this episode deconstructs what success, taste, cult status, and cultural impact mean in fashion today.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Catching Up: Boise, Queerness, and American Pride

[03:32]

• Avery reports back from Boise, Idaho, raving about its underrated cultural scene and queerness:

  "It's like, incredible. And it's so queer and cute and all the food is good and the vintage is amazing." (Avery, 03:47)

• Lauren and Avery reflect on overlooked beauty in America, even as politics and local realities complicate the narrative.
• Tone: Warm, personal, and curious.

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2. Avery’s New Podcast with Derek Guy – Reading Fashion Philosophy

[05:32]

• Avery is excited about her new show with “Twitter menswear guy” Derek Guy, where they actually read classic works of fashion thought for the first time—"The Rise of Fashion," Veblen, and more.
• Their dynamic is unique, citing their IRL friendship and the Twitter persona’s readiness to “battle”:

  "He's like, gerded for battle... But we have a unique relationship because we met a long time ago..." (Avery, 06:04)

• The show's first episode tackles Bernard Mandeville’s Fable of the Bees—a poem proposing vanity and vice as social goods and, by extension, as drivers of fashion and consumption.

• "Sin is maybe not so bad, guys. Like, sin is what vanity and pride is what makes us buy clothes." (Avery, 09:25)

• Mandeville’s spirited, troll-like pamphlets echo internet discourse today.

• "... proof that people have always been this way, even before Twitter, just wanting to make weird takes and defend them." (Avery, 10:56)

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3. Spotlight: Los Angeles Apparel & American Apparel Culture

[11:30 – 26:03]

Lauren’s Firsthand Tour of LA Apparel

• Lauren describes visiting Los Angeles Apparel’s gigantic, ultra-varied factory store, run by founder Dov Charney.

  "It's like going to the American Apparel on Houston street in 2009, except eight times the size." (Lauren, 13:41)

• The store is hyper-responsive to demand:

  "You walk into the store and you're like, I would like a leotard in light peach. And there's a leotard in light peach. There is a triangle bra in every single color you could want in the world." (Lauren, 14:45)

The Cult of Dov Charney

• Employees are fiercely loyal, he’s seen as a cultish leader:

  "He is like a cult leader. ... He always surrounded himself with incredibly intelligent women who he would empower." (Lauren, 21:20–22:46)

• The work environment: empowering yet “cult-like,” with rapid ascension possible for intelligent, ambitious retail staff.
• Charney’s business strategy: hyper-vertical integration, focus on American-made, and no-minimums for wholesale—enabling a broad, colorful, tactile, and nostalgic product lineup.

Nostalgia and Gen Z

• Both recall the American Apparel heyday—hoodies, leotards, leggings, and mini-dresses—recognizing how the “indie sleaze” aesthetic is back.
• Gen Z flocks to the store; the resurgence is multigenerational:

  "Tons of young people... We saw like, mother and daughters together." (Lauren, 19:40)

• Sizing remains “wildly small,” echoing AA’s notorious fit:

  "I was an extra large in almost everything in women's." (Lauren, 17:16)

Ethics, Shoplifting, and Working for Dov

• Mixed memories: smart, fast-moving culture, "very cultish, and I understand it because a lot of his ideas are right." (Lauren, 24:22)
• Shoplifting lore:

  "It was so weird because it never would have dawned on me in a million years. But if you were very cool looking... RISD students would go and just shoplift from there..." (Avery, 26:51)

Takeaways

• The store is a living example of consumer culture as pop culture; both recommend a pilgrimage—"a cultural experience" (Lauren, 25:12)
• Dov's model: mid-size cult brand, not mass-market, feels "enough" in today's climate.

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4. The Row: Accidental Explosion, Elite Basics, and a Fickle Fashion Audience

[30:53 – 51:48]

The Row’s Billion Dollar Question

• Lauren recaps the Row's COVID-era boom (“accidental athleisure explosion”), influence of Phoebe Philo’s hiatus, and its careful, profitable growth.

  "...they, I think people that as. And it was their own money, it wasn't their parents money. So like it just creates a different culture of how you manage things and you manage for the long term." (Lauren, 33:31)

• Recent $1B valuation, new investors, and slow-burn scale-up—but existential questions persist:

  "What does the Row want to be?... do they want to be... the best basics in the world for people who want that stuff all the time... or do they want to be at the height of influence?" (Lauren, 38:43)

Imitation, Competition, and Shifting Tastes

• The rise of Phoebe Philo, Orly, and heritage brands gives consumers stylish alternatives—eroding the Row's unique appeal.

  "I could just wear Yamamoto... I could wear Phoebe Filo instead." (Avery, 39:47)

• The Row is seen as the "platonic ideal" of American taste, but critics find the collection “too basic”, perhaps not “weird enough.”
• International indifference: “...I asked a fashion editor [in Paris]... do people wear it? And they were like, no, we would never wear the row.” (Lauren, 42:51)

Personal Takes and Critique

• Quality debates: “I really only own one thing from the row. And the thing is it, it's not that well made. It didn't blow me away.” (Avery, 48:49)
• Lauren’s buying habits have cooled, indicating both pricing concerns and lack of inspiring newness.
• They agree: The Row needs to evolve its communication, push itself creatively, and re-engage with the cultural moment.

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5. New Brands, Modern Aesthetics, and the "Falling Apart" Look

[52:56 – 55:25]

• Avery singles out brands with a distinctly 2020s vibe—“SC103, cobbled together, kind of second handy clothes,” avant upcycling, and buzzy labels like Zoe Gustavo Whelan.
• Cuckoo Intimates, praised for their simple, versatile slips and nightwear-as-daywear, earns high marks (and party compliments):

  "I wore it at a party at Prada and people are like, where'd you get that dress? Like, it's a nightgown." (Avery, 54:40)

• Lauren notes how current small brands remix ‘90s references in ways that still feel fresh.

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6. Quick Takes: Copenhagen Fashion Week and Scandinavian Chic

[55:33 – 63:25]

• Lauren’s sources report “there's not like anything really going on” at Copenhagen Fashion Week despite the city’s enduring appeal for food, design, and local fashion.
• Avery posits climate change and global warming as shifting the fashion city calendar:

  "...seeing how swelt Paris Fashion Week was and how everybody is... going to cold Nordic places for their summer vacation." (Avery, 58:28)

• Avery draws a parallel between Copenhagen and the Antwerp Six, noting how local government or ecosystem support can build a fashion capital—naming upstart Scandinavian brands like MF Penn as “real commercial.”
• Pico in Copenhagen: praised as “chic Claire’s,” reflecting the attainable, fun side of Scandinavian retail.

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7. Teaser: Next on "Articles of Interest"

[63:32 – 65:33]

• Avery previews her next episode on lace, luxury, industrialization (and links to AI!):

  "It's actually really about AI and replacement of labor... the reason lace was so valuable is because it required so many hours of work, and that's what made it special." (Avery, 63:38)

• Lauren responds with a shoutout to Milan's Vera Persiani—her favorite artisanal lingerie shop.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Dov Charney's magnetism:

  "He is like a cult leader... because a lot of his ideas are right. The execution is complex, but A lot of his... Like, the base of what he thinks is correct." (Lauren, 21:20/24:22)

• On the Row’s appeal and limits:

  "They're creating platonic ideals of like classic American standards... Maybe they're not weird enough." (Avery, 45:21)

• On rising prices and shifting loyalty:

  "I have no interest. Like, there's one jacket that they did that's really beautiful, but it's $4,000. And, like, even if it goes on sale and I could get it for like a thousand bucks, it would take a lot for me to be convinced that it was worth it." (Lauren, 51:11)

• On Copenhagen’s emergence:

  "It's such a shrewd move to use fashion to, like, elevate a city and create a new fashion capital... a new hub by hype and elbow grease and marketing and a lot of really raw talent." (Avery, 59:27)

• On lace, labor, and AI:

  "When lace was mechanized, that's part of the origins of the Luddite movement... It says a lot about the clothing industry and luxury in general when you talk about lace." (Avery, 63:38)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:32] – Boise, Idaho talk; queer culture and American beauty
• [05:32] – Avery & Derek Guy’s podcast; fashion philosophy classics
• [11:30] – The LA Apparel factory experience, business model, and cult culture
• [25:00] – "Success" for mid-size, cultish fashion businesses
• [30:53] – The Row’s rise, billion dollar valuation, and challenges
• [39:09] – Influence; pivot to other designers (Phoebe Philo, Yamamoto)
• [45:21] – Are The Row's basics "not weird enough"?
• [52:56] – What cool brands are hot now: SC103, Zoe Gustavo Whelan, Cuckoo Intimates
• [55:33] – Copenhagen Fashion Week analysis, Scandinavian fashion discussion
• [63:32] – Preview of next Articles of Interest episode on lace, labor, and automation

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Style & Tone

• Conversational, wry, deeply knowledgeable—with both hosts freely mixing anecdote, journalistic perspective, and candid critique.
• Pop culture references juxtaposed with academic rigor, nodding to both street-level and historic currents.
• Humor and warmth filter even the most critical observations, making the episode approachable even as it delves into industry intricacies.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a mix of insider reporting, lived experience, and sharp critical assessment. It is a must-listen for anyone interested in the mechanics of new cult brands, the legacy of American Apparel, and what makes (or breaks) fashion status today—from LA to Paris, The Row to Copenhagen.

[To follow Avery's work, check out “Articles of Interest” on your favorite podcast platform and articlesofinterest.substack.com. Lauren Sherman’s Line Sheet newsletter gives further context to these topics twice weekly at Puck.]

Transcript

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[Lauren Sherman]

Hello, and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo line sheet. And today with me on the show is Avery Trufelman, host of articles of interest. We're talking about her new series with Derek Guy, the Charms of Los Angeles Apparel, the Challenges for the row, and so much more. Happy Tuesday, everyone. Hope you had a great week. This episode is long, so I'm gonna shut up and just get going with it. Read line sheet. Lots of interesting stuff happening now. Might be some big news this week if I'm lucky. We'll talk soon. Avery Trufelman, welcome back to Fashion People.

[Avery Trufelman]

It's such an honor to be here.

[Lauren Sherman]

Thank you for being here. How's your summer going?

[Avery Trufelman]

It's okay. It's okay. I was just reporting a story in beautiful Boise, Idaho, which is amazing. Have you ever been.

[Lauren Sherman]

No, but I always, like, reference it when I'm trying to talk about middle America. I often am like, you know, in

[Avery Trufelman]

Boise, Idaho, it's heaven, dude. It's like, incredible. And it's so queer and cute and all the food is good and the vintage is amazing. And whenever people are like, are you enjoying yourself? I'd be like, this is incredible. Why didn't anyone tell me? And they're like, yeah, don't tell anyone. So I'm telling you. And I'm. Wow. And Boise is amazing.

[Lauren Sherman]

Maybe I'll go next summer. I love them. I love the. The Midwest and the West. West.

[Avery Trufelman]

Yeah, this is West West. It's like, it was fantastic. And swimming holes everywhere.

[Lauren Sherman]

Boise. Oh, man. Swimming holes. No, I love water that is not attached to sand.

[Avery Trufelman]

That. That's so funny. I was with my friend who was also like, this is perfect. I hate sand. I want all the beaches to be paved over. Like, you don't like sand, but you like crystal clear water that feels like it was poured out of an Evian bottle. Boise.

[Lauren Sherman]

Wow. Next summer for me. I wanna. Can I ask what the. What you're reporting on or. It's. It's top secret. Still little secret.

[Avery Trufelman]

I don't. I'm doing it for the economists, so I don't know what their policy is. I. If it, for me, I'd be like, that, that.

[Sophia Franklin]

That.

[Avery Trufelman]

I'll tell you all about it.

[Host 1 - Ad Read Announcer]

That.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, I can't wait.

[Avery Trufelman]

It's fun to be with a British bloke, being like, this is America. But Boise made me, like, very proud of America. Everyone was so nice and it was so beautiful. I was like, this country is pretty great.

[Lauren Sherman]

Fascinating. Yeah.

[Sophia Franklin]

There.

[Lauren Sherman]

I mean, it is.

[Sophia Franklin]

It is.

[Lauren Sherman]

There are some really amazing things about it, including the trade.

[Avery Trufelman]

Abortion is not legal in the state. Like, you know, there's a lot of stuff you have to look over, but. Oh, man, the city of Boise rocks.

[Lauren Sherman]

That's awesome. Thank you for. For this travel log. I appreciate it. You have been busy this summer. So you have a new podcast, right? Tell me about it.

[Avery Trufelman]

Yeah, I'm really excited. It's a podcast with Derek Guy. Like, the Twitter menswear guy, Derek Guy. I believe he's been on Fashion People, right?

[Lauren Sherman]

You know, he has not been on Fashion People, but I have interviewed him many times. I did a Q and A with him for line sheet. He and I have a bit of a. There's like, a tension when we talk. I don't know if he could. I should ask him to come on. But I think he gets, like, a little defensive because I'm like, who are you?

[Avery Trufelman]

He's like, I don't want to. Battling for Twitter every single day. You know, he's, like, gerded for battle. Although we have a unique relationship because we met a long time ago and we met in person, like, every time we've met up in person. And so we started. And I think he's so knowledgeable about basically everything. I cannot tell you how many times I've turned to him and just asked for how something is made or the history of a given thing. He has so much knowledge. And we have made a podcast that only is one episode so far, but we've banked a couple where we are reading classic works of fashion philosophy that people reference all the time, including us, that we've never actually read. Like, Veblen, you know.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Avery Trufelman]

And like, yeah, people. Or George Simmel. Like, people love to mention these things.

[Lauren Sherman]

And fashion is spinach.

[Avery Trufelman]

Yes. Well, okay, we're going off of this book, this academic reader called the Rise of Fashion.

[Lauren Sherman]

I've never read that.

[Carvana Ad Voice]

It's.

[Avery Trufelman]

Well, I knew I wanted to do this podcast with Derek because I was like, oh, I have this academic reader. And he was like, me, too. And we're both holding it in our hands, and we're like, I guess we'll go through sequentially.

[Lauren Sherman]

You two and David Marks have it. I bet. I'm ordering it for myself right now.

[Avery Trufelman]

I'm not as great.

[Lauren Sherman]

I'm not as smart as you guys, but I can. I can fake for a minute.

[Avery Trufelman]

No, I have never read any of these guys. I have not heard of most of them. And to your point about fashion, is spinach. They're woefully. They're like, no women. It's all white men.

[Lauren Sherman]

Interesting.

[Avery Trufelman]

But it does feel like a way of sort of getting the basics out of the way. And then, who knows? Hopefully we'll continue to, like, talk about all the other contributions from literally everybody else. But it's very interesting because the readings start in 1705, like before capitalism. And so it's very interesting to watch these approaches to clothing and fashion and luxury develop over time before they've consolidated into. Well, I mean, the way we think about fashion and clothing is always in flux. But it's interesting to, like, read these early philosophers thinking about them.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, that's fascinating. I'm really excited to dig in. And the first episode. What is it about?

[Avery Trufelman]

It is about a book I have never heard of. And in the introduction to it, it was like the most seminal. The. The editor was like, this is the most seminal book since the Leviathan. It's so important. I was like, really? I've never heard of this. It's called Fable of the Bees by this guy, Bernard Mandeville. And it started as a little, like, nursery rhyme. He was a Dutch guy who moved to England and he was a medical doctor. And to make money, he translated fairy tales. And then he thought, I'm gonna make my own fairy tale. And he made this little fairy tale that rhymes literally in like rhyming couplets. And it's all about beehive, that everybody gets along really well because everybody is terrible. Like, everybody is selfish and vain and acquisitive and.

[Lauren Sherman]

Sounds like the fashion industry.

[Avery Trufelman]

That's the thing. So. And then. And then they pray for all the vice to go away and the whole hive collapses. And this was like the first book. Well, it wasn't a book. It was a little rhymy pamphlet. But it was the first, one of the earliest ideas, one of the earliest, I should say treatises that was like, sin is maybe not so bad, guys. Like, sin is what vanity and pride is what makes us buy clothes. And it.

[Lauren Sherman]

What.

[Avery Trufelman]

And it's what makes us support small businesses. And it's. It's very funny because it has these seeds of, like, trickle down economics in there, of greed is good of all this stuff that will come later. But at the time, it was completely blasphemous. Mandeville was called Man Devil. He was banned from the church. And then the thing that is so funny to me is after he published this poem, people reacted very poorly to it, of course. They were like, why are you saying that sin is good, that's really bad. And he was like, what? You want the church to. The church would have you just sit in a room doing nothing, eating bad food, you know, not. Not dressing well, not supporting anyone. All these virtues that the church, I don't know, elevates are not actually good for society. And then he just kept writing these defenses of his weird take for the rest of his life. He kept putting out pamphlet after pamphlet. Kind of it felt like clapping back at trolls, honestly. And it got more and more annoying. The more I read. I like wanted him to stop. The more I read into his defense of this weird argument, which is kind of proof that people have always been this way, even before Twitter, just wanting to make weird takes and defend them.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Avery Trufelman]

But yeah, I'd never heard of this thing before and it was really interesting to consider.

[Lauren Sherman]

That's fascinating. And it's available through substack.

[Avery Trufelman]

It's available through substack, but you can find it on the podcatcher of your choice if you go to articlesofinterest.substack.com Listen, it's not exactly intuitive, but that's fine.

[Lauren Sherman]

People will do it for you. So back to this. It's interesting because there is this and one of I wanted to chat with you about Los Angeles Apparel and intern American Apparel today anyway, which is kind of an example of this. I do think without. You need tension to make things interesting. And that's a great. I went to. So this weekend, I'm in Los Angeles. This week on Saturday after it's been extremely humid here, which is not the typical in LA, it's usually extremely dry. So I can handle 100 degrees in dry heat. I'm fine. 100 degrees. And look, humidity here, it's relative. It's still not that humid. But.

[Avery Trufelman]

No but any humidity. It's like a blanket.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's horrible. And so it's kind of been like, what do you do in the afternoon? I keep taking my kid to the playground and there's no one there. Like, we went on a hike, like a quote unquote hike, like a flat walk up by the Rose bowl. And there was like no one there. It's just no one doesn't. So I said to my husband, I was like. Because a friend of mine in Paris wanted me to. She wanted to ship a bunch of Los Angeles apparel T shirts to my house and me bring them back to her in Paris. And I, I was like, you know what? Said to my husband, why don't we just go to this factory Store which is in. It's on 59th street south of downtown Los Angeles. Dove Charney, who is the founder of Los Angeles Apparel, also the founder of American Apparel, he. It. The factory is next door. It's a 300,000 square feet factory store. Then he also occupies another warehouse building that is the quote unquote for flea market, which has like vintage and a bunch of like leftover stuff. And then there is a shipping warehouse. So it's basically this strip. And. And I've been to these kinds of places. My husband was like, what is this? So we go to this giant store.

[Avery Trufelman]

I kind of want to go to that. It is amazing.

[Lauren Sherman]

It was like I. I said to my husband, I'm like, you know what? We. I'm kind of feel bad we didn't go to Regan projects and see the show that I want to see that's ending this week. But this was a cultural experience, especially because at the end I had one of there. It's. It's crazy. I couldn't figure out how many square feet. I should have asked them, but I didn't how many square feet the actual store is. But it's giant and it's like going to the American Apparel on Houston street in 2009, except eight times the size. And essentially I was talking to someone who has a wholesale account with them because a lot of the business of Los Angeles Apparel and the reason Dove has been able to keep it going and employ all these people, which he does, whatever you think about him, and, and his devices. Yeah, he employs a lot of people. They love him. He's a good employer to these people, to these people who work in. In this factory for the most part. And it has been for over 20 years or probably 30 years at this point.

[Avery Trufelman]

So.

[Lauren Sherman]

But what he does is he doesn't have any minimums apparently, like for certain accounts. So if you want something, he can just cut it. And so I think what he's done with the store is like you. It feels like almost. You know how when you Google something and something pops up on Shein and it's like, yes, we have the exact thing you were looking for. It's like you walk into the store and you're like, I would like a leotard in light peach. And there's a leotard in light peach. There is a triangle bra in every single color you could want in the world. There are jellies in 50 different colors. So there's this one T shirt. It's kind of unisex. It's the 1801. There are 58 colors. It is crazy.

[Avery Trufelman]

But was this nostalgia for you? Were you like into American Apparel? I. I was in a heyday. Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. Like, I wasn't. I wasn't dressing up on Halloween in. I wasn't buying the LeMay.

[Avery Trufelman]

I was just gonna say the gold LeMay.

[Lauren Sherman]

I was not doing that. But I wore the tri blend. I used to wear the leggings. I used to wear the leggings and the tri blend T shirts to work.

[Avery Trufelman]

What a time.

[Lauren Sherman]

So inappropriate. Like, it's so crazy. I don't. I can't believe no one ever said anything to me. I guess they just were like, we can't. I. But yeah, I. And I loved it. I thought it was such a smart idea. It was like, this is it. It was the sec. It was the third coming of Gap or whatever. Like I thought, oh, it's vertically integrated. I thought it was like really, really brilliant. And I still do to an extent. It was nostalgic. But it was also like, I bought a bunch of stuff. I bought my kid stuff. I got my kid. Do you remember the, the duffel bags?

[Avery Trufelman]

Yes, yes, of course.

[Lauren Sherman]

I got myself a mini duffel bag in white to like carry around. And then I got my kid a duffel bag in purple with red handles in the shape of a whale.

[Avery Trufelman]

That's so cute.

[Lauren Sherman]

So cute. And then look, a lot of it. I wrote a, a thing online sheet about it on Monday. It's interesting. Like a lot of it, the sizing is wild. Like you. You think he's sizing it for the GLP1 era. But honestly, it's so tiny. Like I weigh. I, I like wear a size 8 and I was an extra large in almost everything in women's.

[Avery Trufelman]

No.

[Lauren Sherman]

Whereas, like if I go to arc it, I'm like a small in the short. The size. Small shorts are too small. Big on me. Like it, it's, it's. Everything is very tiny and I think it's just like you're supposed to wear it tight. I don't know. But it. Look, I ended up buying. What did I get? I got a pair of track shorts, a pair of like pull on elastic shorts that in men's. And I bought a large in the men's. I got.

[Avery Trufelman]

But like do the track shorts. Do they. Are they like bum shorts? Like do they actually cover they grip any leg?

[Lauren Sherman]

No, but I bought the extra large. Like I could have bought the large. There wasn't a huge amount of difference. But they were just like I would. And the. But Then the hilarious thing is in the track shirts, then they have a micro. A micro version. So I don't. And I was just. But I got the tractor. Like, they are. Just because I have, like, I have track shirts from Amazon that I wear around the house or whatever. They're perfectly fine in the size extra large. Like, in the large. I could. I could go out and it would not be embarrassing.

[Avery Trufelman]

But Lauren, you're so amazing. The people's fashion journalist. I love it.

[Lauren Sherman]

But there was, like, scrunchies. There was. Do you remember the nail polish? That. That it's the exact same thing. Like the same bottles and everything.

[Avery Trufelman]

Oh, my God.

[Lauren Sherman]

And someone said, I have not been to the store in New York yet. I really need to go the next time I'm there. Someone said they were a bit disappointed in the store in New York. I would say, look, like, the stuff is nice. I'm really happy with what I got. Not everything is. It is a. Oh, and I brought, like a bra and some underwear.

[Avery Trufelman]

Like.

[Lauren Sherman]

Cause they came in primary colors. I was just like, this is so cute.

[Avery Trufelman]

That's fun.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, it was a fun. And the other thing was, it was really busy. Oh, I had to wait like 30 minutes. They gave me a pager for the. And they had probably 10 changing rooms. And I had to wait like 30 minutes. Tons of young people. Which I was really surprised because it's like, I guess that that indie sleaze is, like, trendy, but. And I asked the girl at the front, I was like, what kind of

[Host 1 - Ad Read Announcer]

people come in here?

[Lauren Sherman]

She's like, we get. I said, is it like people like me who shopped here when they were your age? And she was like, yeah, we get all walks. And it was. It was. It was crazy. We saw like, mother and daughters together.

[Avery Trufelman]

It's wild. So interesting.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Avery Trufelman]

They sent me some stuff and I was really impressed. I mean, it's all very, very, very, very tight. Like, you got to be down with the skin tight stuff. But even hearing you talk about it, like, oh, right. Like booty shorts and muscle tees and like, fun. That's so fun.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. And I love color. And I think that's the thing that is right about it. Like, people want to wear and they don't want to. Like, the t shirts are 28 bucks. And he's making them responsibly. And I believe that, like, whatever you're going to say about Dove, he's. He's making them responsibly and treating those people well. And like, I've been reporting on him for 15 years that I know.

[Avery Trufelman]

That's so interesting.

[Lauren Sherman]

I mean, yeah.

[Avery Trufelman]

I don't know how far down the rabbit hole you want to get with this, but I feel like I know so many people who've interacted with him. Like, my first. My. My, like, college boyfriend worked for them for a while, and, like, Dove was there and scouted him out as a model. Like, it's. It was just a weird culture there, and I just wonder if he's changed stuff or if it truly is just a revival.

[Lauren Sherman]

I think he is a lot older. I mean, he must be 60. So I think there's probably less.

[Avery Trufelman]

I mean, that's the age of a lot of charismatic cult leaders.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes. Look, this is what I said to my husband on the way home. I said, he is like a cult leader. And because I've experienced it, I did a story on him, I think, in 2015 or 2016, when he was launching Los Angeles Apparel. And I went to the house in Echo park, which I ended up moving, like, right down the block from it. When we moved to la, oh, my God. And I went up and there's all these beautiful young women walking around folding stuff. And the thing about Dove, to me, that was always interesting because I knew a lot of people who worked for him because he often. I don't know if they ever had a real publicist he would often like. The person that I dealt with all these years was a person who ran part of the business for him, who he recruited out of the Houston street store when she was still in college. But the thing about him is he really. He's smart, and he always engaged smart women on the male side, like the men I've interacted with, who he dealt with, not as smart, and I don't know what that says about Dove, but, like, the women that he, like, the everybody world founders worked for him.

[Avery Trufelman]

Like.

[Lauren Sherman]

Like, he always surrounded himself with incredibly intelligent women who he would empower. Like my.

[Sophia Franklin]

This.

[Lauren Sherman]

This person I know who became a good friend. She ran a whole region for him when she was, like, 26. And she really did it. It wasn't like he was like, yes, she's very attractive, but it wasn't like, you're hot. Let me give you a fake job. He was like, you're hot and smart. Let me give you a real job. Look, did this mean that this could be the way he managed things? A giant business? No, but I think it is very cultish, and I understand it because a lot of his ideas are right. Like, the execution is complex, but A lot of his. Like, the base of what he thinks is correct, and that is. I mean, he does a lot of the merch for a lot of the big companies and a lot of the big celebrities. He was working with Kanye for a long time. He's an interesting character that I think that the scale of Los Angeles apparel right now where he has this store in New York, I have no idea how he funded that. I assume he has some investment, but he has this store in New York, he has this factory warehouse, plus this other stuff. I think this is the right scale for a person like him. I don't think it could have ever become the next Gap because of other limitations. But it is very fairy cult. Like. Like, it feels like. It feels like. Because I've. I've felt his

[Avery Trufelman]

I.

[Lauren Sherman]

Charm might be the wrong word, but I understand it.

[Avery Trufelman]

Like, and you're right, like, on principle, it's cool that someone could start at an entry level retail job and, like, ascend through the corporate ladder. It is very uniquely American and cool in theory. It's. It's a shame. It's a shame that it couldn't work out.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. I think. I think it's another example of, like, what is success. And maybe what this is right now is enough.

[Avery Trufelman]

Well, it reminds me a lot of, like, what Mickey Drexler did with Alex Mill, you know, that all of these Titan merchants are like, I have a little brand now.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Avery Trufelman]

And I have only a few locations, and this is what I do.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes. And I think. I mean, the difference is, Mickey, is that. That is. That's, you know, I think probably will be $100 million business sooner than later. But it is the same in that he is doing it the way. Exactly the way he wants without the pressure from the outside to expand and all of that. But I think it's fascinating. It was, in the end, kind of a cultural experience. And not just. It's like when you say consumer culture, shopping culture, or whatever is pop culture. This was the perfect example of it. And I do recommend taking a trip down there. Like, it's. It was fascinating.

[Avery Trufelman]

I want to go. My favorite picture of myself in my early 20s was wearing American Apparel LeMay Black LeMay Leggings, dancing on stage at a girl talk show. And I was like, I did it. I was in my time.

[Lauren Sherman]

You really did. What did they send you this time?

[Avery Trufelman]

Oh, I'm boring now. I was like, one turtleneck, please.

[Lauren Sherman]

They had some cute mock turtlenecks.

[Avery Trufelman]

Yeah, yeah, it was. It was great. I don't. Okay. I Don't know if you'd want to include this, but do you, like, did you know people who would shoplift from there?

[Lauren Sherman]

I didn't, but I, I, I didn't know any. I think I was a little too old for that.

[Avery Trufelman]

Okay.

[Lauren Sherman]

It was like, if you look, was it big to shoplift from there? That's funny.

[Avery Trufelman]

Yeah. There's like, that whole tow Lin story, shoplifting from American Apparel. It was a known thing. And it was so weird because it never would have dawned on me in a million years. But if you were very cool looking. I remember friends of mine in, in Providence would go, like, RISD students would go and just shoplift from there. And they, like, wouldn't they? They'd be like, hey. And they'd take some things out and let them keep the rest. I was always like, was that a policy? Like, what's going on? I just wonder if they've updated their shoplifting policy.

[Lauren Sherman]

I, I didn't see any security guards. They did have a greeter, though. No. Yes. Who looked amazing.

[Avery Trufelman]

She was style.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. She was wearing a bodysuit, but then her pants were really low, so you could see her hips. She looked so good. I was like, this is fun. I had a great time. The guy, the kid who rung me up, it was like, what did he say? It was so. It was just like. And they all asked me, what are you up to today? I was like, well, I'm gonna go to dinner. And I was like, what are you up to? And they were like, working.

[Avery Trufelman]

That's so funny. That's like a real question.

[Lauren Sherman]

They must have a prompt that you're supposed to ask.

[Avery Trufelman]

Totally my. I was just talking to a friend of mine who used to work as a greeter at Abercrombie, which is so funny. Cause it was in London, and he was, he was just like, you know, his job was to be like, sup? And people in London don't really. Yeah, Ask like, sup? And he said, he asked one lady who was coming in like, hey, sup? And she said, I'm going through a divorce and ran away.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, my God.

[Avery Trufelman]

I mean, yeah, they're probably inviting all kinds of things.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, man.

[Avery Trufelman]

You up to today?

[Lauren Sherman]

What are you up to today? Anyways, Great. I had a great time.

[Avery Trufelman]

I want to go.

[Lauren Sherman]

I think you should go. I really want Dove to come on the podcast. I have asked him.

[Avery Trufelman]

Why wouldn't he?

[Lauren Sherman]

I don't. I think he's probably like, I don't know. I think he should do it, but I don't know. If he will.

[Avery Trufelman]

Fingers crossed for you.

[Lauren Sherman]

I want to hear. It would be really awesome.

[Avery Trufelman]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

Because we've just been through a lot together and. And it would be. It would be really fun. But we'll see.

[Host 1 - Ad Read Announcer]

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[Lauren Sherman]

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[Host 1 - Ad Read Announcer]

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[Sophia Franklin]

It's Sophia with enough Franklin with the Y. And if you're looking for some bubble gum dum dum podcast, then you are in the wrong place, baby. Whether I'm reminiscing on the trials and tribulations of working in the court corporate world to recapping today's latest reality TV show, you're going to want to pull up a chair and stick around. It's a good time and always 100% unfiltered. Follow and listen to Sophia with an F wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lauren Sherman]

Moving on to another brand that was founded in Los Angeles that I wrote about recently that I'm so curious for your take on it and its place in kind of fashion history and luxury and all that. Is did a piece last week and I mentioned on the podcast on Friday on the Row and it was kind of about the Row sort of. I don't want to say accidental explosion during COVID but it was definitely connected to the sort of athleisure accidental athleisure explosion that happened during COVID and no one had anywhere to go. So it was like a combo of Phoebe filo stopped in 2018. It gave the Row more space to take up that customer and then on top of it they make perfect essentials essentially. And so for people with a lot of money. If you wanted a pair of cashmere sweatpants or you wanted the perfect button down or you wanted the perfect Teva slide, that was actually 1,000 bucks. You went to the Row and they, at the beginning of the pandemic they had some challenges but then they just exploded. It just became the first for a certain really fashion literate customer. It was like the first go to brand. And it's interesting I still think, I mean they're still doing extremely well. You go on the website and there are tons of SKUs that are sold out. But I think and during this period in 2024, they raised a bunch of money at a billion dollar valuation. The investors, including the worth I met Family Imaginary Ventures, the l', Oreal, the Betancourt family, the Bencort Myers own, l', Oreal, like and then also Lawrence Santa Domingo's fund, they took a little bit less than 40% at an over $1 billion valuation. This was. They had raised more. They had raised money in the past but had never been public about it. But this is like a big significant amount of money to you know, do more retail to. But the thing with all those investors is they're not expecting an exit with the Row anytime soon. They are expecting this to be a long term investment. Maybe it's 20 years, but it's worth it because these, this brand has grown for 20. It's almost, it's 20 years old I think this year.

[Avery Trufelman]

Wow.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, it's amazing. And they've grown so carefully been profitable almost every single year. Huge reason for that is because Mary Kay Ashley Olsen had money. So they, I think people that as. And it was their own money, it wasn't their parents money. So like it just creates a different culture of how you manage things and you manage for the long term. Anyway. I'll shut up in one second because I want, want to hear from you,

[Avery Trufelman]

but no, no, I don't. I'm. I'm fascinated. I've always been like what's up with the row? Especially when there are all those memes about the sample sales.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh God, yes. So I happened last year was. And I actually didn't mention this in the piece because I. But like the sample sale became this, like it became too much. People kind of got grossed out by it and then. And complaining about it and then. Which is hard because that's a, that's a customer acquisition tool for them. If you want to talk in MBA speak like that's how you get someone who can't afford it to get in and when they can't afford it ten years later, then they're loyal, that type of thing. But. But I think that has been tricky. And then also there was an influencer who was a. Like, basically her whole life, her whole influencer Persona was being the Row. Like, being. And now. And she. She felt rejected by the I. She's. She's lovely. I think she was being like, they don't owe her anything. But I. And so whatever. But she no longer wears the row. And I'm like, it doesn't look as good. But anyway, the point being that there was suddenly this, like, resistance to what they were doing because, A, it got even more expensive than it was, and B, there are all these new ideas happening in fashion. And as that happened, they sort of retreated. They made. Not only were there fashion shows, no photos, but they weren't releasing as many photos. They tightened up their. They already, like, never did interviews and stuff, which I actually think is the right approach. But, like, all the other communication that they did was less. And then you have Phoebe Filo coming up with this idea of, like, who's a much more original designer. She's not making the perfect version of something. She's making her version of something. Like, a great example is they both did a fisherman sandal, which they named the Phoebe, which I was like, they must have done this on purpose. She made a fisherman sandal. And her fisherman sandal is like. Theirs is very classic. Hers is like. It's like a fish. They were both fishermen Mary Janes. Hers is not classic. It's trendy. But it's so weird that it'll still look good in 10 years. Like, she has the same thing mucho Prada has, which is like, you can wear the stuff 10 years later even though it's trendy, because it's, like, so good. And it's just like, why would I ever buy that fisherman sandal from them when. When. When Phoebe did it? And it's, like, a million times cooler. It's gonna look so much better with jeans. And I think there is, like, a core community of fashion literate people who are like, you know what? I actually only need to go there. I was messaging with a big shopper who has amazing taste, who's really into it, and she was like, you know what? It's funny. She showed me this pair of loafers that she just got. She was like, it's the perfect version, but I haven't bought anything else in months. I've been buying a lot more Saint Laurent and buying Phoebe, and I Think my idea for the piece was not like they're in trouble. The reason the spark was a friend of mine, another friend who's a big shopper, had been looking up something on Phoebe Filo and a Google Ad came up for the row and then they also did it on Orly and the same thing happened. And so it's like, oh, they're putting up Google AdWords, which means they know that that customer, some of that customer who wants the norm core stuff is going to orally because it's more affordable and more colorful and more optimistic. And some of that customer is going to Phoebe because they're more fashion conscious. So it was basically a thought experiment of like, what does the role want to be? Does the role want to be just like a hardcore basics, but like the best basics in the world for people who want that stuff all the time and then it'll go in and out of fashion and they're okay with that or do they want to be at the height of influence? I mean, remember that there was a book published by Ashley and Mary Kate Olson called influence in like 2008 or 2009 to bring it back to the age of indie sleaze. But I think that they are probably asking themselves that too. Like, what is a long term thing? They want to build something that is here in 50 years. I believe that. But like, how do they do it? And I'm just curious as someone, you know so much about fashion history and so you have such a. Your kind of purview of what you're looking at goes so much further than what is considered traditional or luxury in today's market. What do you think of them and what they do and is it interesting to you at all?

[Avery Trufelman]

Oh, well, thank you for that. I mean, something that's really interesting to me is the way that they, I think they're inspiring a lot of people and then shooting themselves in the foot. Like I just saw this article the other day on Substack that someone, you know, one of the Substack girlies posted that are like this obscure designer from the 80s, does the row better than the row. And it was Yoji Yamamoto. Like they had never heard. You know what I mean? And I think, yes, it's a real jump off point for a lot of people. And then they realize, oh, I could just wear Yamamoto. Yeah, exactly. Like I could wear Phoebe Filo instead. I could wear all these other things instead.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's funny because this year I bought a Yoji jacket and a Yoji dress in Paris for like Each thing was like, 300, 400 bucks.

[Avery Trufelman]

That's. That's amazing.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. In situ.

[Avery Trufelman]

That. That's fantastic.

[Lauren Sherman]

Next time you go to Paris, you have to come to this vintage shop with me. It's amazing.

[Host 2 - Ad Read Announcer]

Okay.

[Avery Trufelman]

Twist my arm. I would love that.

[Lauren Sherman]

So good.

[Avery Trufelman]

It's just interesting. I feel like. I don't know, there's.

[Sophia Franklin]

There.

[Avery Trufelman]

They can be compared with so much. Even Eileen Fisher, for sure.

[Lauren Sherman]

Like, yes.

[Avery Trufelman]

And. And it's funny because I have been wondering. I remember when they. When they had that almond flat and everyone was losing their minds, and it really did change footwear. And I'm like, what. What happened? Where did they.

[Host 2 - Ad Read Announcer]

They.

[Avery Trufelman]

They had such a niche, and I don't know. I assumed it was something internally, like something about a personnel change or something. I mean, I don't know.

[Lauren Sherman]

They change. It's interesting. They change designers. I don't. I'm sure there are. People have been there with them for a long time, but pretty frequently, and I do think it's really them driving everything. Shoe designer, same thing. But this is common in that world to change up your shoe designer because you want to change it up. So there's like, a few of them, like Nina, Kristen, who is now with Jonathan at Dior, but also has her own brand. Kristen, who I just bought a pair of sandals from there, and they are really good. It's not. It's, like, too hard for me, most of it, but I got a pair. She basically did, like, an elegant Birkenstock, and it's awesome. Like, I've been wearing it all summer. It's. It's. They were really good. But then there's this guy, Trevor, who I believe worked for them, and Kate. There's a couple shoe designers who kind of go and are. Are sort of in demand, and they hop from brand to brand, and it's very, very common. But I would say, yeah, I think part of it is this sort of. Of them tinkering with what they are and trying to figure out. And I think you're right. Like, the Eileen fish. I almost said that myself. And I think one of the things. The reason I've always felt so connected to the row is I think they are very American, and they have incredibly good taste. Like, the best taste in the world. Like, better taste than anyone else. But their references are of people who were educated in the American school system. And obviously, like, they. In particular, like, I think they had tutors a lot when they were really young. But I have always felt that, like, when you go to Europe and I noticed this even before I was in Paris. Like, probably a year and a half ago. I asked a fashion editor there, like, do people wear it? And they were like, no, we would never wear the real. Like, even.

[Avery Trufelman]

Really?

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes. Because, like, it's not everyone. Like, I have a friend shout out Victoria who loves. She just. She'll like, get. She wears like, cut off. She makes capris from leggings from Target and then wears them with a T shirt from the real. But she's amazing style. But like, I would say generally a. It's much more expensive there. So it's even more expensive there than it is here. And then on top of it, like, I wanted a cover button jacket, to be honest. Inspired by Carolyn Besar.

[Avery Trufelman]

Because I'm a basic bitch who amongst us.

[Lauren Sherman]

And this is the thing they are making. There is something like, for me, there will always be something about me, no matter how much education I have, that's a little basic. Like, there just is. And I am comfortable with that. And I think there is something about the way that they. The work that they do that there is something like a little. And I don't mean that derogatory. I mean it in, like. It feels very American. It feels like that Teva that they made. It is the best Tevas, if you want to. I tried to buy like a knockoff of their Teva and I was like, no, if I'm going to get this, I have to get the row. And their, like, dedication to things being so perfect. But I think they need to push themselves a little harder. And I think Phoebe, Filo and Orly, in this interesting way have made it. So they need to decide they need to go one step deeper. And I'm sure they're working on it and they don't give a shit what I think.

[Avery Trufelman]

But, like.

[Lauren Sherman]

But I just. It's been fascinating to watch the sort of. The sort of tide. I don't want to say turn on them, but just move away from them. In the last year and a half, like, I was sitting with two of my girlfriends at one of the Japanese restaurants in Paris that all the fashion people go to. And I sit down and we're all. We all have Phoebe Filo bags. We're all wearing Phoebe Filo trousers. And then we're wearing, like American Apparel T shirts or whatever or a vintage. Whereas that same group, those three women a year earlier, there would be no way that we didn't have one each be wearing one item from the row.

[Avery Trufelman]

That's so interesting. But as you. As you say, they're creating platonic ideals of like classic American standards. And that is funny, that is something that's so American about them is that they're still embracing this sort of totally common language. The other brand that I think of with them is like Andemela Meester, especially when I think about their store. But those forms of basics of like blacks and whites and like a very artsy designed, art inspired esthetic, I mean, they're really. They are reaching more towards the common. The common man, the basic ideals. These are like simple garments and they're maybe not weird enough.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, it's interesting because I. I was also thinking about the lack of access to the store in Paris. And I don't know if it's still the same when it first opened and it was during Fashion Week or was like right before. There was a huge line and I waited for an hour and then my friend came and took my spa and she got in an hour later and there was like, no product. The one in LA is not like that. But like, I Charvet slippers, like, they brought back. I remember they did a Manolo shape that became. I ended up buying it from Manolo like a year later, and I think I bought it from them and then I bought another color from Manolo. But they like brought back a Manolo shape. Cause they just have such a good sense curation.

[Avery Trufelman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

And so I think I get it. Like, I understand that you're kind of managing for tourists and all that stuff, but I don't know, I think that they need to communicate a little bit more. Because the thing about Phoebe Filo is she is not. She hasn't even had a show. If she has a show, she's gonna invite like 25 people. Nobody's gonna be invited. Sometimes she does like a presentation. Everybody has to sign an NDA. Like, they don't. They're not. They're not being open with people. And yet, because the imagery is everywhere. Because the imagery is so. A friend of this friend of mine and I were talking about it on Friday night. Like, it's so editorial. Every other campaign now looks like Phoebe and. And it's like they're using the couch from their house and their carpet. Like, it's so. It feels so inspiring in this way that so much doesn't now. And I don't think they should be doing what she's doing, but I think they're capable of competing with her for real. And they need to push themselves a little bit more and also open it up a little bit more. Because I can't be inspired by them if I don't see anything. Another example I made was the playlist thing. They were very early to that and I got so many emails about, you know, who actually does their playlist. It's this person. I was like, cool. I don't care who actually does it. It's great. And it's such a good communication tool. And now all the brands do it. Love the handover playlist, but I, I just, I want more from them.

[Avery Trufelman]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

I don't know what you, what you. I. Sorry, that was a rampage.

[Avery Trufelman]

No, no. It's so interesting. I really only own one thing from the row. And the thing is it, it's not that well made. It didn't blow me away.

[Lauren Sherman]

I believe it.

[Avery Trufelman]

It's some. Some combat boots and they are like the platonic ideal of combat boots.

[Lauren Sherman]

But those are very good.

[Avery Trufelman]

They're very good. But they kind of fell apart and I was like, I don't know. I don't know.

[Lauren Sherman]

I have a pair of booties from them that have a very tiny kitten heel.

[Avery Trufelman]

Oh.

[Lauren Sherman]

Actually they're three inches, but they're like a weird shaped heel.

[Avery Trufelman]

Ooh, fun.

[Lauren Sherman]

But they're like, they're high enough to walk. They're high enough that they're easy. I can walk in them pretty far. I've gotten them redone. I've probably spent $700 redoing them. And I probably. I think I paid $1,300 for them. I've probably spent 700 over the last three years just redoing. That is like, that is also me.

[Avery Trufelman]

But that's the thing. I feel like it's also part of the brand mystique. Like, if you want to play the Margiela game, play the Margiela game. But, like, there's. Where's the quality? Where's the branding? Where's the personality?

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes, I think you're right.

[Avery Trufelman]

I think that's a fair assessment. Although I do love the. The store in New York. The store in New York is just like your Barbie dream townhouse, full of amazing art.

[Lauren Sherman]

I love it. And I mean, they really do have the most incredible taste and I'm excited for them to have that store in Tribeca. Also, they're taking over the Issey Miyaki store down there. Yeah. And I hope. Yes. I'm really sad. I've never been in the Paris store. I need to go and try to go in on like a weird. At a weird time, because it's really beautiful. But I went on the site, usually, I would say the thing I buy from them really regularly is just like a pump. Like every season they do a different shape pump and it feels like. Correct. And what I started to do is sell the old ones because I'm like, why am I just keeping these? They don't. They're out of fashion. And I'll just sell these and put that money towards another pair. But I haven't since in like at least six months, if not nine months. Huh? Yeah. That's the last thing I bought from them. And clothing wise, I have no interest. Like, there's one jacket that they did that's really beautiful, but it's $4,000. And, like, even if it goes on sale and I could get it for like a thousand bucks, it would take a lot for me to be convinced that it was worth it. Whereas I think what Phoebe and what Chanel are doing is they're communicating online that it's worth it. Like, you see it and you're like, yes, I want that.

[Avery Trufelman]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

And that's. It's, It's. Yeah, it's an interesting time for American brands.

[Avery Trufelman]

Yeah, that's so interesting.

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Evening. Buyer's remorse. Buy a new car. I'll be moving in. Let's get started.

[Host 2 - Ad Read Announcer]

Sorry, I think there's been a mistake. I bought it from Carvana.

[Carvana Ad Voice]

You what?

[Host 2 - Ad Read Announcer]

Yeah.

[Squarespace Ad Voice]

Great price.

[Host 2 - Ad Read Announcer]

I even have seven days to love it or return it.

[Carvana Ad Voice]

So there's no.

[Host 2 - Ad Read Announcer]

No, no buyer's Rem. More like buyers rejoice.

[Carvana Ad Voice]

I guess I'll let myself out. Congratulations. I mean it.

[Host 2 - Ad Read Announcer]

Buyers rejoice. Buy your car today on Carvana.

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Limitations and exclusions may apply. See our 7 day return [e-mail].

[Lauren Sherman]

what brands are you looking at right now? Is there anything that you've gone down a wormhole?

[Sophia Franklin]

Hmm.

[Avery Trufelman]

I'm trying to think. I mean, I've been really into the brands that I. I just feel like a uniquely modern aesthetic. When people dress like the 2020s, I think they're gonna look like all these clothes that are sort of Falling apart. You know, like SC103, like cobbled together kind of second handy clothes or second handy looking clothes.

[Squarespace Ad Voice]

So.

[Avery Trufelman]

But that's like a style I really enjoy. I just bought a. I want to make sure that I get all her. Her names right. But she makes upcycled T shirts that are so cool, and one is coming in the mail.

[Sophia Franklin]

Hopefully.

[Avery Trufelman]

I keep a list of everything I've. I've. I've bought. Yeah, Zoe. Gustavo Whelan makes amazing clothes. And a lot of them are like boning and this kind of like corsetry and bloomers stuff that people really love, but those are really expensive. And so she makes these like, upcycled kind of twisted T shirts that are really chic and they're all one of a kind. So I really liked her work. And then in the summer, I mean, whom amongst us is not into Cuckoo Intimates? But I wear my slip all the time and I get compliments on it. I wore it at a party at Prada and people are like, where'd you get that dress? Like, it's a nightgown.

[Lauren Sherman]

I really love Cuckoo Intimates. I had her on the podcast. She was cute.

[Avery Trufelman]

Oh, good.

[Lauren Sherman]

She's cool.

[Avery Trufelman]

Oh, I'm glad she's cool. She makes such good things. And that's great. I'm like, why do I love this?

[Lauren Sherman]

It's.

[Avery Trufelman]

It's just plain simple stuff. But it's so good.

[Lauren Sherman]

You know, she studied philosophy in school.

[Avery Trufelman]

This explains something.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, it's interesting. You know, it's funny. When I did it, I got. I guess, like, there was. There was someone who was like, you know, she's referencing a lot of stuff from the early 90s, blah, blah. And I was like, sure. I don't know. I mean, I don't want to. This person listens to the podcast. I don't want to. I understand what they're saying, like, but I also think that's fine.

[Avery Trufelman]

I'm such a fan. I just think it's so great.

[Lauren Sherman]

So good. Final question. We always end up talking way longer because you let me talk. So you're a good podcast host.

[Avery Trufelman]

I'm learning so much. You keep so abreast of modern things. And I'm like, over here reading Rousseau, being like, what. What's going on? So thank you.

[Lauren Sherman]

You are way. This is. This is education is what it is. But yeah, we're definitely going to get a bunch of. I'm going to get a bunch of. Why Let Avery speak. No, the last thing I wanted to discuss was last week was Copenhagen Fashion Week. And we were talking offline about it right before we got on. But I was saying that I messaged a friend who went, and it was like, tell me what happened because I want to do a little item. He's like, there's nothing here for you.

[Avery Trufelman]

Yeah. Why do you say that?

[Lauren Sherman]

Well, I think he meant, like, I'm always looking for, like, what is happening in the industry. What's like, what is everyone talking about? And to me, if I was gonna go on a trip, like, I used to go to Pitti Uomo and it was kind of like going on vacation. Cause you're just like, ah, I get to look at stuff. And I would write, like, one thing and I'd like, eat all these nice meals at the cafeteria or whatever that they had. And all the menswear people are very chill. Like, it was like a very nice situation. And then I. And the light in Florence is so beautiful. And I'd see like two things and that'd be like, see ya. But the. It's like, if you want to go, it's in January. It would be too cold to go to Copenhagen and Fashion Week.

[Host 1 - Ad Read Announcer]

Right.

[Lauren Sherman]

They invite me every year, first week in August. And there is part of me, I really like Copenhagen for like two to three days. It's a great city. There's amazing food, there's good shops, there's amazing design. There's a lot of interesting local brands. Everybody tries really hard, fashion wise. I was just there with my family for a couple of days and we had a really nice time. I didn't do any shopping. It was like, very family. We went to the Louisiana Museum. Like, there's so much amazing design there.

[Avery Trufelman]

I love best posters. Yes.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. I love, like, clean, cold cities. But yeah, he was just like, there's not like anything really going on. We went to the new. We went to Daphne, the new restaurant. Like, it's. He's like, it's just not. And. But they've. They've been around for 20 years. And I guess one of the organizers who's like, made it cool is leaving. But it's an interesting, I'd say of like, all the, like, tertiary fashion weeks, it's the. The one that I think there's like, the most value. If you go there, you have a brand. Like, you're gonna get seen by influencers and people who can help you move product. And buyers too, I think still look at it if. If they don't go. But I'm curious what you think about Scandinavian design and fashion and. And how it fits into the. The broader conversation.

[Avery Trufelman]

Well, I mean, my gut instinct every time I see it is like, this must be a climate change thing. Also, like, seeing how swelt Paris Fashion Week was and how everybody is. I forget where I just read this article, but it was like, yeah, side effect of climate change is everybody is going to cold Nordic places for their summer vacation. And I had a friend who just came from Paris Fashion Week, and he was like, it was so hot. I don't know if this was true, that you weren't allowed to have drinks at all. They were, like, too scared of people fainting. So he was like, everyone was sober at this fashion party. It was terrible.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, really? I had to leave because I. My passport got stolen, so I had to come back to America. So I missed all the parties. But I believe, oh, my God, it was 104 degrees there the last day I was there.

[Avery Trufelman]

Yeah, you didn't miss much, it seems like, but it just. It just seems like, oh, this is a far more pleasant place to go in the summer, first of all. And then the other thing that it reminds me of is, well, you know, I'm writing this book about the Antwerp Six.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes.

[Avery Trufelman]

And it. Everything comes back to that for me. And it seems it's such a shrewd move to use fashion to, like, elevate a city and create a new fashion capital. And I feel like I'm just seeing it in Copenhagen with. With new designers that are getting raised into this, like, canonical level and lifting up young designers and making this, like, a new hub by hype and elbow grease and marketing and a lot of really raw talent. And it's kind of cool to watch a new fashion capital emerge before our eyes.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. And I. I also think, like, there's something about the economy there, that lack of education I'm not going to get into right now. But, like, that allows for these brands to do well, like, to. To be able to build up, because you couldn't really do that in any other city or country. Like, I guess Sweden and. And Denmark are both like that. Like, you have. I mean, you can't really say totem. Yes, they're in Sweden, but that's like really an American business. Or, you know, they have. They have people all, all over. But, like, Ghani came out of there. Now a lot of their businesses, operations are based in Paris. But, like, right. You think of something. Like, the brand that I'm really interested in is MF Penn.

[Avery Trufelman]

Oh, I love MF Penn.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, that guy is. I met him at the LVMH prize. I just really liked him. And I was like, this guy is. Is real commercial, which I think is the. There is part of it that is gonna be European and kind of not go as far as an American would in terms of trying to sell stuff. But I think there's a commercial understanding of commerciality there that maybe doesn't exist in other parts of. Of Europe, too, that they're okay. Maybe it's because so much of it is based on industrial design, and that is stuff that you sell. And that's why it's interesting, though.

[Avery Trufelman]

That's it. I mean, I don't know anything about this, but is it like a government initiative or is there a. Like. Like, is there some seed funding in Copenhagen?

[Lauren Sherman]

All I know about the government, about Denmark, is that there's a lot of taxes, so everybody is almost equal. And then there are also rich people. I don't know. I've looked up too much about these countries because I am always curious why, when I went to Norway, actually, I had just talked. I talked to Derek Guy when I was in Norway, and I was like, why is there no chic stuff in Norway? But then all these people from Norway were like, there is. You just didn't find it. But I think it does have to do with something with the way the economy works. People are going to be like, yeah, they're going to. They're like, not never going to listen to me again. But, yeah, No, I think it's fascinating, though, and it's fun to see. Kind of reminds me like, there's a store Pico there that does scrunchies.

[Avery Trufelman]

Huh?

[Lauren Sherman]

They sell, like, fun costume jewelry. It's like chic Claire's.

[Avery Trufelman]

Oh, I love that Pico.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's amazing. I have, like, a little gold necklace, like, fake gold necklace with a little blue turquoise blue heart that I got there, like, and then I have, like, all these scrunchies and hair clips and stuff, and everything's kind of affordable. It kind of reminds me of Los Angeles apparel. Like, it's the same kind of thing where you're like, how are they making any money off this stuff? Everything costs $25. But somehow they are. Huh?

[Host 1 - Ad Read Announcer]

No.

[Avery Trufelman]

And also in this little economy where we all need a little. A little treat, a little splurge. Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

Avery, what's really interesting. What's your next. What's your next episode about

[Avery Trufelman]

lace and all the different ways to make it and how it has represented. Well, it's actually really about AI and replacement of labor.

[Squarespace Ad Voice]

Because

[Avery Trufelman]

when lace was mechanized, that's part of the origins of the Luddite movement and all of these refusals of technology. And to talk about, like, the reason lace was so valuable is because it required so many hours of work, and that's what made it special. And so you really can't. It tells. It says a lot about the clothing industry and luxury in general when you talk about lace. Yes, it's very interesting.

[Lauren Sherman]

Do you know about this store, Vera Persiani in Milan?

[Avery Trufelman]

No.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's this, like. It's a lingerie shop. It's like pajamas. It's like slips and things. They do have some bras and underwear, but it's more like slips and pajamas. And there's a similar one, Saba Rosa in Paris, but it's become, like, connected to the whole sort of Saint Laurent lingerie as slips, as dresses. And that store on the Upper east side that the Times just wrote about, that Kaitlyn Phillips had written about, that sells all these vintage slips and things. But I've been thinking a lot more about it. They make everything themselves. So, like, when I went in, they were like, we'll just. This is. This won't fit you. We'll fix it right now.

[Avery Trufelman]

That's so cool.

[Lauren Sherman]

And then I ordered. I was like, I would like this. This in black. And they were like, sure. And they. And it was not expensive because there. It's like family run. But I think that's it's. It feels timely to be doing something on lace because it's such a big part of modern consumption right now.

[Avery Trufelman]

It's so interesting and, you know, it used to be so valuable that it was worn more like jewelry. Like, you'd pin it on stuff and take it off. It's like a very different approach to close. Anyway, very interesting.

[Lauren Sherman]

This was such a pleasure. Always great to have you. No, thank you for having me. It was so fun. Happy summer.

[Sophia Franklin]

Bye.

[Avery Trufelman]

Stay dry.

[Lauren Sherman]

Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. The show is produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, producer Maya Chapter tribute, and director of editorial operations Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, Kelly Turner and Bob Tabador.