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A
If you know me, and many of you do, you know that I like shopping, but what I really love about shopping in the time we live in is that Poshmark exists. Truly. The breadth and depth of what their sellers are offering is unparalleled. My recent purchases on there have included a Kate bodysuit from a few seasons ago, a pair of Mnz ballet flats from a few years ago, and a vintage Ballantine Scottish cashmere cardigan from a few decades ago. As I'm sure you know, you really can't find good Scottish cashmere that often and there's tons of it on Poshmark. Plus you can negotiate with sellers on price so you always feel like you're getting a great deal. I am truly a very big fan. Shop Poshmark today and find what feels like you. Download the Poshmark app and use code Puck P U C K for free shipping on your first order. That's PUC for free shipping on your first Poshmark order. Have you heard of this thing called Bilt? With Bilt, every rent payment earns you points that can be used towards flights, hotels, Lyft rides, Amazon.com purchases and so much more. And here's something I'm really excited about. Bilt members can earn points on mortgage payments for the first time ever. You can get rewarded wherever you live and unlock exclusive benefits with more than 45,000 restaurants, free fitness studios, pharmacies and other neighborhood partners. Personally, I do all that stuff. I go work out, I go out to eat, I go pick up prescriptions. But I am going to be redeeming my points for Amazon. Obviously it's simple. Paying rent is better with build. Owning a home will be better with build too. Earn rewards and get something back wherever you live. Join the loyalty program for renters@joinbuilt.com fashion that's J-O-I N B I L T.com fashion make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you. Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, runner of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet. And today with me on the show are Alicia Santisi and Francesca Keller. The stylist and actress who are mother and daughter, chat about working and growing up in the fashion world, their TikTok celebrity status and plenty more. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the art world and much more. If you're interested listeners of Fashion People get a discount. Just go to Puck News slash Fashion People to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday everyone. I hope you had a great week. I am flying today and I will be in London for a bit and then I'm off to Milan. This week in Line Sheet we really get into companies that should have sold a couple years back and missed their opportunity. Rachel Strugatz, our beauty correspondent who's the best in the biz. She is focusing on Augustinus Bader, that fabulous skincare brand that you probably use their products and it should have been one of the industry's big exits and it wasn't. And I have a big thing on J. Crew where all that cool marketing that we've all loved and enjoyed participating in has not necessarily equaled strong sales. And I did a bunch of reporting on what or some reporting. I think there's more to come, but what the company is doing to streamline the business so they can finally please their debt holders and whatever they say, they might say the company's not for sale, but everything's for sure sale. Also, as I'm sure you saw, Adam Badawi was named global editor of gq, I would say, and he is currently the editor of British gq. He's replacing our line sheet celeb Will Welch. I'd say the vibe is sort of quote unquote snooze as many people texted to me. But look, this guy seems smart. I think he's nice. He wants to do it, so maybe he'll surprise us. He was, however, quoted in the New York Times as wanting to put GQ in its quote unquote rightful place as the North Star of masculinity and to have the magazine be more participatory in the cultural and political debates of our time. That sounds exhausting to me and not something I'm personally interested in. But again, who knows, let's let him try. Anyway, this conversation with Alisa and Franny is way more fun than not so enjoy. Francesca Keller and Alisa Santisi, welcome to Fashion People.
- [05:28]
B
Thank you.
- [05:29]
C
Thank you so much for having us.
- [05:31]
A
I just need to set up that you both have on headphones and you have handheld mics and you're Seeing. Sitting together. And Francesca has her arm around her mother, and it's the. I love it. I'm obsessed. I'm so excited to have you both does.
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C
And it's behind her. But that's okay.
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B
I put it on now.
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A
It's good.
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B
I am here to support her moral support.
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A
It's good. You two are both legends in your own way. One legend in the making, one longtime legend. And I'm happy to talk to you about your relationship and your relationship to fashion. And as we were chatting prior to the recording, I have been following Franny's TikTok and sort of making Alisa into a famous person outside of fashion. She was always very famous fashion, but the wearer of amazing pants. But it's just been fun to watch. And I love your sensibility. And my friend Alyssa Vignan wrote this piece on you all for New York Times that I was just like, I have to have them on. They're. They're so great. But first off, can you all kind of explain who you are in your relationship? I know I mentioned your mother, daughter, but, like, why are we here today?
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B
Wait, wait, wait.
- [06:48]
A
Before we start, what'd you have for breakfast? I keep forgetting today to ask people, would you have her breakfast this morning?
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C
Did you eat?
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B
I. Yeah, I actually, sometimes I don't have breakfast because I snack so late at night, but I had some of a bacon, egg, and cheese bagel. It's pretty good.
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A
Sounds good.
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B
It was.
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A
Was it from, like, a deli?
- [07:07]
B
From some deli in Battery Park? I think it's called the Brookside Bagels or something. I don't know. My boyfriend ordered it and.
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A
That sounds great. Lisa, did you eat anything?
- [07:16]
C
Yes, I. I made myself a smoothie, which I have, like four times a week.
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A
What's in the smoothie?
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C
Yogurt, peanut butter, whole milk yogurt.
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B
Wanted to just preface that.
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C
Peanut butter, almond milk, frozen strawberries, and frozen blueberries.
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A
That's great. It's what everybody should be eating every morning.
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B
She's really not an almond mom, though. I feel like people would think that about her. But she's not. No. You like a hot dog?
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A
There was a lot of, like, free eating growing up. No, not just natural food. Store stuff.
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B
A combo. Yeah. I don't know any normal house.
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C
Try to get organic.
- [08:01]
B
Whatever. My chicken, my dad is Mr. Hellman's mayo, so, you know, there's no. No stopping him. And Jiffy, like, you, you get the natural peanut butter. He still gets Skippy or whatever.
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C
Yeah, you can't change them.
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A
Well, the peanut butter thing is, I like Whole Foods. They're sort of in house line because it's a sort of mix of. It's not totally natural, but it also doesn't have any added sugar. So it tastes like the consistency is of a traditional peanut butter, but it's not. You don't feel as like you can't taste any added sugar or anything like that. To me, it's a happy compromise and a crunchy.
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B
Yeah, she's a crunchy.
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A
Yes. So what brings you here today? You two are obviously mother and daughter, but you also share some crossover in your professional lives. How did that happen?
- [09:05]
B
Well, what were you gonna say? Through the TikTok? Yeah, through the TikTok. I'm an actor. I have a theater company. I've always been doing acting, but then I started DJing foundation, doing that for over three years now. And then I started posting her and I was just so shocked at how obsessed people were with her. I mean, she's not doing anything. She's just like, existing, wearing, you know, to me, very normal. I'm not going to say boring, but, like, I find her style more boring than mine. Even though, like, she has really tailored, obviously, really nice, good pieces. To me, I'm like, whatever, man. I mean, first of all, can I just say, like, color and gross should really give you a discount because the amount of people who have been asking for your glasses is out of control.
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A
It's crazy. I would look so stupid in those glasses. But I was thinking, like, wow, they're so good.
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B
The comments. Still, I get comments on old videos. Please, where are her glasses from? What tint? What level of tint?
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C
The trick is to tint.
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B
Yeah, but anyways, I feel like also then because of the tiktoks, I started getting invited to stuff that I never got invited to that I'd probably beg her to take me to. And she was like, you know. And then I also sometimes DJ fashion events and I think that's just kind of how it started. And now I get invited to cool stuff and I'm very happy about it. It's very fun. Right.
- [10:40]
C
And we both, like, had no idea why that one TikTok of me shopping went viral.
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B
No, that one I can understand. It's the one of you sitting in the living room that I don't understand why that went viral.
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C
I don't either, but half the time
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B
I don't understand it.
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C
But it could be that I'm just a little, like, I don't want to be in it. And yeah, of Course, I'm not trying to draw attention to myself. In fact, it's the opposite.
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A
And.
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C
And maybe people thought that was funny or appealing. And it's also that Franny's funny. She made it funny. I don't think it would have been the same if she didn't make little comments.
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A
It's gonna be very hard to make this a linear conversation. Cause I have, like, 15 things I wanna say from that. And I think, Alisa, you are so behind the scenes. Like, I think of you as styling shows. I think of you, obviously, your editorial work, but also September issue. You are a memorable character. Like, that's the thing about it.
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C
We don't talk about it. Well, I love it.
- [11:49]
B
I've never seen it, but I could talk.
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C
No, I know.
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B
I've never seen the movie because she didn't want me to, which I can't believe.
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C
But anyway.
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A
But it is interesting because you. You don't try. But there's just something about you that is compelling to people. Like, I remember when Emily Weiss launched Glossier and she was your assistant, right?
- [12:09]
C
Yeah, yeah.
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B
She's babysat me a few times.
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A
Oh, wow. Yeah, of course. Like, I see it, and I remember you being at her launch party and us all just being like, oh, my God, she's so cool. Like, you would just have.
- [12:21]
B
Oh, that's kind of.
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A
I think it was. Was it at Weather up or something?
- [12:24]
B
I was there, too. There's some really bad.
- [12:27]
C
I don't know. I don't remember.
- [12:28]
A
I mean, that's like, almost 10 years ago.
- [12:30]
B
Dark bar. Yeah, it was.
- [12:31]
A
Yes, it was.
- [12:32]
B
Yeah.
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A
But you do have, like, an essence that obviously your daughter understands. And as Franny, as a performer and a writer and all these things that you are, you clearly saw her as a character. And I just love that it has sort of. But maybe if you all can talk a little bit about, like, Franny, how you grew up with Alisa being this working in the fashion world, and maybe just talk a bit about, like, your life as a kid and seeing her in that world and Alisa as a mom in that world and raising a kid. And you all lived in Brooklyn, right? I don't want to reveal your Rogers. I don't know it.
- [13:13]
C
But, yeah, we live in Brooklyn.
- [13:15]
A
But what. What. What was that like in that era of, like, 2000s when. When you were growing up, Frannie and. And Elisa, you were, like, really in the middle of the American fashion industry, specifically, but global. It was less global then. It felt different. But what was that like, as, like, a mother Daughter duo. I don't know if that's a easy question to answer.
- [13:43]
C
Yeah, well, her whole upbringing till she was, what, 15. Like, she was six months when I started at Vogue. So I started there with, like, an infant. And I was there, you know, 10 years full time, and then five years as a freelancer. So it was, you know, it was her whole, you know, formative years, I guess.
- [14:14]
B
But I guess for me, I. I knew it was cool because people would react, but also, like, young kids don't know what's going on in the fashion world. You know, I. I'm. It's not like I. I think now I'm so curious about what that was like. And I wish, you know, at this age I could have stepped into that world, because to me, my mom just went to work and came home and she wore high heels on the subway and did a crossword while balancing. And I had a really fun time visiting her at the office and, like, raiding the accessories closets.
- [14:53]
C
But, you know, which didn't happen often.
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B
No. And she didn't go to events often. It was. And it. When she did, I would beg her to tell me what celebrities she saw. But she's never been, like, in it. She's never been an attention seeker. You've never been, like a socialite in your life. That's just not your vibe. I probably wished you were as a kid, but, you know, she was low key and also like a very present mom. I would not have known what was going on. Not to say something was going on, but I had no idea that she was in, like, the peak of the craziest fashion era. Whatever. September issue galore. Well, the.
- [15:39]
C
Also the peak of magazines. Yeah.
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B
To me, it was normal. She'd go on shoots. I really just cared about the models. I wanted to meet every model.
- [15:49]
C
True.
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B
And I wanted to come to sets. That's all I cared about.
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C
And meet, like, Lady Gaga and Carly Kloss.
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B
I did love. I loved Karlie Kloss so much. I did.
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C
Yeah.
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A
It's also growing up in Brooklyn at that time and raising a kid in Brooklyn at that time, that wasn't as common, right?
- [16:09]
C
No, no. I moved to Brooklyn, like, early. Like, okay, it was 97. 90. 98. 98.
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A
And
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C
I wasn't. I wanted to move once I got there because it was just farther. But I loved my apartment. And, you know, my husband would appease me and say, okay, we'll get the real estate section this week. You know, we'll look for something else. And I remember, I don't know if I should say this, but like Grace Coddington saying, oh, we might be doing this shoot in Brooklyn. Sorry, Elisa. And I was thinking, I was thinking, you know, I live in Brooklyn Heights.
- [17:01]
B
I mean, I didn't say, but I
- [17:02]
C
was thinking, like, you know, it was just, it was looked down on, I think, you know, Brooklyn. And then everybody started moving there, and then I sort of forgot about it.
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A
And now Brooklyn Heights feels like it's like, so it's.
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B
Everyone wants to raise their kids there.
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A
Yeah. And it also feels like the episode. And it's, it's funny because at some point it was the epicenter, right. And it became the epicenter again of, like, life in, in New York. Whereas, like, now people like the the place. It's like moving to Bed Stuy or Bay Ridge or something is the thing that people are like, oh, I have to do that. I mean, not even Bed Stuy is glamorous now, too. But it's interesting.
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C
It seems like it all is.
- [17:48]
B
I know. You just have to get further.
- [17:55]
A
What I love about fashion today is that it is less dictatorial than ever. If you want to wear bell bottoms one day and skinny jeans tomorrow, that's totally fine, as long as you make them look good. And a lot of that freedom comes from access to the secondhand market. And Poshmark is at the center of this movement. Like, you can get Michael Kors Celine, Phoebe Filo Celine, Hedi Slimond Saline, and Michael Ryder Celine all in one place. And for prices that feel fair. I love that there's a lot of proper vintage on there, too. I'm currently on the hunt for Phoebe Philo Era Chloe. If you see anything, send me a Poshmark link. There's tons of men's stuff on there and kids stuff on there, too. We love Bobo shows, and any purchase over $500 will go through an authentication process. So if you're worried about that, there's your peace of mind. It's a great place to sell stuff, too, so you can buy more stuff, find what feels like you. Shop and share your style on Poshmark Today. Download the Poshmark app and use code Puck for free shipping on your first order. That's Puck P U C K for free shipping on your first Poshmark order.
- [19:05]
B
Life can feel overwhelming, but you don't have to go through it alone. On my podcast from the Heart with Rachel Braan, I share openly and vulnerably about everything life brings us and what we can learn by living with our hearts a little bit more open Every Friday, a new episode brings you a new story with topics on self care, motherhood, healing and more. You are enough just the way you are. This podcast is a reminder of that.
- [19:30]
D
Follow and listen to from the Heart
- [19:32]
B
with Rachel Brathan wherever you get your podcasts.
- [19:38]
A
What has kind of for both of you, like looking at the way the industry has changed during that period. So we were talking about the, the show, the documentary, the September issue when it was like the biggest print magazine ever. And you know, over the last 15, 20 years that's all changed because brands go direct. They have Instagram, they have TikTok, they have. You all are a part of like a new generation of what they call content creators now, but were called magazine makers or journalists before. What have you. Elisa, for you, what has that been like to observe? Especially because you're part of making the images which is different than being a person who's writing the heads and decks in the magazine or whatever.
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C
Yeah, well, it's just, there's no money anymore and there's more work and less time to do it. Like a two day shoot is a one day shoot. You know, if you're doing advertising, you have to do video and it's just, you know, it's not as luxurious as it was and I don't know, I just.
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A
Do you still like it?
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C
Yeah, I mean I love fashion, so I mean that sounds kind of trite, but I do.
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A
What are you loving right now in terms of, are there any brands that you're just obsessed with that you want more people to know about or, or pay attention to in a different way?
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B
Yeah, but my mouth shut.
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C
I, I mean as far as like what I wear, I'm mostly wearing like brands that you've heard of, like. But what do you like? I mean, you know, BB Filo, there are some small brands. Like I just, I always like screenshot them. I can't think.
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A
But tell me about your relationship with Phoebe Filo. I'm curious because of course you love Phoebe Filo.
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C
My relationship with Phoebe Filo? Well, you know the brand. Yeah, I made some mistakes. Mostly I bought like, I've bought quite a bit actually. Like pants, jeans. Like I just bought like the satin T shirt over the weekend.
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A
I bought it too.
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C
You did? Yeah.
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A
Oh my God, you make me feel so good.
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C
But then in the beginning like I bought the shoes which I didn't. I don't like the big wide toe, it's too wide. And I. There's certain things. I bought a sweater with like this big shoulder and it's just not right on me. And I don't know why I bought. I kind of get, you know, salespeople kind of convince me and I shouldn't
- [22:45]
B
listen, but she often will go and then come back and then go and then come back before making a purchase.
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A
Oh, true. That's good.
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B
She does write a lot. When we were in la, she went to the Drew. He's Van Notenzwort. We were there for like four days. Three times. My dad had to drive her three times. And she didn't get the damn T shirt.
- [23:03]
C
Only because they had this room. I mean, I haven't been there in ages, but with like, basics. And they had this, like, really good green color T shirt.
- [23:13]
B
I've been looking for it for years. We've been trying.
- [23:15]
C
And I bought a pair of sweatpants, and that's the only reason. And I'd come back and I'd buy it, and I bought the green T shirt and like a.
- [23:25]
B
No, you didn't get peasant. Oh, you lost it.
- [23:28]
C
I lost it. I lost it.
- [23:29]
B
Oh, God. All right. If anyone knows that Dries green T shirt, my mom could really. Would really love it.
- [23:37]
A
I think the Dries Van Noten people sleep on the Dries Van Noten basics because the T shirts, they're very well priced. And I figured it out once because in Paris, I ran into Leandra Medine and she was wearing chinos. And I was like, where are those from? She said, oh, Dries. And then that's when I started. That was like, my entry into buying Dries was buying the T shirts and sweatshirts because the colors are amazing, the make is really good, and they're like 150 bucks. They're not crazy.
- [24:09]
C
I feel like this was more expensive, but I also have a denim jeans that are kind of loose, and, you know, I got them like five years ago, and I still wear them, but I'm not like a Dries girl at the same time. I'm not a print person.
- [24:28]
B
No, I don't think you own any
- [24:30]
A
prints, Franny, as a.
- [24:35]
B
That's not true. You're right. You don't wear them anyways.
- [24:40]
A
Growing up and observe. Observing this world and you mentioned, like, your relationship with it in context of your mom, but, like, as a. As a person who ended up wanting to be a performer, what have you observed about the sort of transformation of media and how does, like, what is going on TikTok in your point of view have to do with all of that?
- [25:04]
B
Well, and I think this has been said so many times, but I do think that these big magazines and all of these people fear young people and need young people because we are now the ones kind of moving culture forward and changing it. And it's like people have to keep up with these trends that are all over the place. And you know, I go to these random fashion events and I had this thought last night, I was at an event and I was just thinking, I am sure in your time at Vogue or when you were really big in the industry, this room would have looked completely different. I mean, everyone there is young and it makes me think all of these events and parties, I guess, are for young people to stay cool and relevant. And I just think that, yeah, social media kind of runs everything and influencers and the cool young kids run everything as opposed to when just the stylists and the editorial pages told you what was what in fashion. So I think that that's how it's changed. Social media is everything now. And I think it also makes it difficult because of course, how many followers do you have? Whatever, you can't get a job. They are going with a photographer with more followers or this and that. And you know, it's pretty surface level in that way. But I think there's a lot more room for really funny, creative people to get involved in fashion and I don't think that was happening before. So I do think it's nice to see these creative, cool young people who maybe would never be seen at a fashion, you know, they're not working a fashion job. But personal style is really celebrated I think in this day and age. So I think it's cool that people can express themselves and then we can all follow them through that.
- [27:14]
A
Let's talk about how you all just started to express yourselves together through this TikTok series. How did it happen? Like, how did Franny, did you one day just say, like, I'm gonna do a video of my mom?
- [27:29]
B
Of course not. No, I just pulled my camera out and film her. Well, first of all, what people don't know is she's like hilarious. I mean, she is deadpan humor funny if she's comfortable with you. This girl is like the funniest person I know. So of course I want to capture that. But she'll yell at me if I post her because she doesn't want to be seen. I don't know, whatever. She's not front facing.
- [27:59]
C
It's hard to be funny on.
- [28:01]
B
You were literally just funny. You just are funny. But anyways, people don't know that she's the funniest person alive. So I just film her all the time. But then, I don't know, I guess I just had this idea. I don't remember. I think it just happened. I think I was. I moved back from LA and I didn't really know what I was doing with my TikTok. And I was starting to do these kind of snarky tiktoks, filming people's outfits on the streets or poking light fun at hype brands and lines outside. And then I was shopping with her and I guess I just thought, you know, it is kind of funny, like following a stylist mom shopping. This is a funny experience. Yeah. I didn't think people would become obsessed with it, though. And then when I tell you it took a very, very long time to convince her to willingly participate in videos, I had to secretly film her most of the time. Still do. Yeah. She would text me and yell at me. I wouldn't tell her when I was posting it. I'd wait for her to see it because hopefully if it did, well, she wouldn't care as much.
- [29:11]
C
But it's also better that way. If. I don't know.
- [29:14]
B
It's better if you don't know. Yeah, but she participates a little.
- [29:18]
C
But I do know.
- [29:20]
B
Not when I hide the camera somewhere. You can't see it while you're trying on jackets.
- [29:24]
C
Yeah, that's true.
- [29:26]
A
As someone who doesn't like the spotlight and also wants their child to be able to express themselves creatively and understands the sort of. I assume you get why people are into it,
- [29:42]
B
but can I also say, I feel like it's not really me expressing myself creatively. It's more me wanting her to be known for how amazing she is.
- [29:54]
A
Yeah, I see that.
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B
I don't know what. Because, well, you. Because, like, you do like it. It's just hard for you to. To get you there.
- [30:04]
C
Yeah, she likes it. I mean, I'm not a wallflower. It's not like I want to hide all the time. Right. But it's just. I'm just not totally comfortable about it. But. But I do. It's not. It's like I. I want people to recognize my work or, you know, that kind of thing. But not, you know, the not you
- [30:26]
B
being silly TikTok is.
- [30:28]
C
Is. It's difficult to look at myself sometimes. I mean, and I don't look at the TikTok until YOLO. I see like a little up tick, maybe a few followers, and then I think, oh, what did she put up?
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B
And then I'm like, you're welcome.
- [30:46]
C
I've had her take certain things down.
- [30:48]
B
Yeah. Which I respect. I take anything she wants to be.
- [30:51]
C
Yeah.
- [30:51]
B
You know, I respect her wishes.
- [30:54]
A
Are you both consumers of TikTok? Like, do you go on there a lot?
- [31:00]
B
She's not. She likes Instagram reels.
- [31:02]
C
In fact, I thought, like, I wasn't worried about it at first because I thought, well, nobody I know is on TikTok. And then I heard from, like. And I didn't know I was on it. I heard from Liana Sattenstein. She's like. She sent me it and said, obsessed. Like. And I was like, what?
- [31:22]
B
And then people started talking to you at shows.
- [31:24]
C
That little sneak. And, yeah. I ran into some people who were like, oh, my God. And. But. But it was about Franny. It was more about, like, she's so funny.
- [31:34]
B
She's.
- [31:35]
C
You know,
- [31:37]
B
I think it's kind of fun to document it through my eyes. I guess it is a unique experience because, you know, I feel very comfortable around her editorial seniors, if you will. I think those are probably scary people to some, but to me, I feel very comforted when I see Grace Coddington and people from all of these magazines at a fashion show. No, I do. I feel very comforted. And then when I'm around influencers, I feel very intimidated and scared. So it's comforting being around your people because I'm like, oh, yeah, my mom's friends. I've known them since I was a little kid. That's fun. But I can see it through all the different lens, I guess.
- [32:22]
C
I think it's also a bit like only child.
- [32:25]
B
Oh, totally.
- [32:25]
C
Who likes hanging around adults. Parents and adults.
- [32:30]
A
Yeah, for sure.
- [32:31]
C
She definitely has an ease with, you know.
- [32:38]
B
Yeah. Because young people are me, and old people were my best audience.
- [32:44]
A
I'm an only child also, and I understand you only want to be with the grownups.
- [32:50]
B
Yeah, they were.
- [32:51]
C
Yeah. She loved a cocktail party.
- [32:53]
B
I loved a cocktail. I used to say I would rather go to a cocktail party than a kid's birthday party. But I also never really understood, like, kids being nasty or mean or. I just wasn't like that. I was very peaceful. So I think I didn't like the antics I preferred. Yeah. Let's get to the real world.
- [33:14]
A
Yeah. Get to the point where people just do that behind each other's backs.
- [33:17]
B
Yeah.
- [33:22]
A
A year from today, what would your
- [33:23]
D
dream private practice look like?
- [33:25]
C
Would you spend less time chasing claims
- [33:27]
D
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- [34:57]
A
The thing is like, obviously you're mother and daughter, but you do have like an amazing chemistry and appreciation for each other. And I think for me that's why they're so good. Because Franny totally gets why Alisa is so awesome and compelling to people and Alisa totally gets what Franny's trying to do and it like shows off both of your talents so well. Has there been like commercial opportunities that have come out of it together? Like do are people constantly asking to shoot you too for campaigns now and things like that? Like what has all the attention brought to your individual careers?
- [35:40]
B
Not that much. There's been a few. She usually says no. You know, it's hard to stay relevant in this trying time.
- [35:49]
C
There's something coming up that we might do. We might.
- [35:53]
B
I usually have to convince her she hates, but believe it or not, I had to convince her to do the New York Times article. She's camera shy, you know.
- [36:04]
C
Yeah.
- [36:04]
B
Which you shouldn't be, but she is. I can't change her.
- [36:07]
C
When I saw the email to come on this show.
- [36:09]
B
Yeah, yeah. She was like, I can't do it. And I said, come on mommy, it's gonna be great. She's like, I know if I could do it, I can't.
- [36:17]
A
I'm so glad you did it.
- [36:20]
B
A lot of it is.
- [36:21]
C
This is a good one.
- [36:22]
B
We're both learning through all of this. And I think, if anything, it's nice to push her outside of her comfort zone, because you've got to just roll with what's happening. You gotta say yes.
- [36:35]
C
Yeah. I mean, I. I'm rolling with the punch.
- [36:38]
B
No, she is, basically. I think what's also cool about all the tiktoks just going back to that is that people do recognize her work, which shocked me. And then I started looking at her old work that I haven't really ever looked at, and I was like, wow, mom, you're doing this, like, edgy, cool stuff. Whoa. You were pretty badass.
- [37:02]
A
The old school, major stuff.
- [37:04]
B
Oh, my God, it's so cool. I mean, it's what everyone is trying to do now. So to me, I'm also like, we need to all look at her work and just realize it started everything.
- [37:18]
A
Elise, from when you. It's interesting because it's. I. Did you all listen to the Harper's Bazaar podcast about the 90s?
- [37:26]
B
I only listened to it recently, and I didn't tell you this, but I.
- [37:29]
C
I was part of it. Yeah.
- [37:31]
B
I didn't tell you this. I started sobbing during it.
- [37:36]
A
You did.
- [37:37]
B
I started. I'm. Yeah, I started crying during it because I was just, like, so amazed to hear. Hear people talk about your work like that. And I didn't. You know, like I said, my mom is not. She's a very modest person. She's not telling me. She's not talking about her work. Yeah, I just started crying. I. I have, like, a video of me. I never put it out there, but I just. I don't know. It was really cool to hear people talk about your work, and I guess I just felt really proud.
- [38:13]
C
I mean, I was only on for, like, three minutes.
- [38:15]
B
Yeah. And I cried.
- [38:18]
A
But it was. It's. It was such a. It was hugely influential to me in growing. I was a teenager during that time, and that's why I wanted to be a fashion journalist. Like, I loved that magazine, and I love the imagery and visual. I always knew I wanted to be a writer, but, like, the visuals were so important to me. And I'm curious because that stuff is referenced so much, and so much of what I write about in Line Sheet is about the fact that fashion imagery now is so referential, and a lot of it goes back to that era in particular. But there are other eras, and I thought that that Versace campaign, the Steven Meisel shot one that was referencing the Avedon from 82 was like a great example of referencing. But there was something on that. Bizarre. I think Paul Kovaco probably said it, where they were doing a shoot and it was based on a film. And they were like, but we. And Paul said, but none of us had seen the film in 15 years. So you had to sort of imagine it from your memory. Cause you couldn't like, find the film on VHS or whatever. I'm curious, as an image maker, Alisa, how you feel about the fact that A, that era and all this work you did is so heavily referenced. And B, like, how do you. How do creative people who make images now not get caught up in the past?
- [39:42]
C
I don't know. I mean, back to Bazaar, like, I knew it was a great place to be. I felt very lucky to be there. I mean, the one thing about Liz is she. It was. She gave us complete creative freedom. And I think that's why it was so great and hired good people. Paul Tawny, Melanie Ward, like, it just. There's new photographers and, you know, Fabian Barone, legend. And yeah, it was the right place at the right time. But, sorry, your question, you know, it's the.
- [40:24]
A
The rule of journalism is don't ask two part questions. And that's all I've been doing today. But the second part was like, so much of fashion imagery is referencing that era now, especially. But like a lot of eras, it's just all references. It's all references. I've. I've been inundated this season with complaints about the campaigns because they are all, like, using the same photographers. They look the same. From five years ago, someone made a joke to me. Every campaign now looks like a Ferragamo campaign. You get a pair of shoes and a palazzo and a woman in a floral dress and you're done. But I think sometimes referencing can really work. But it's different now because the references are so instant that it feels like that era. And I think this is why the Carolyn Bessette show, this is gonna run in a couple, a week or two. But the Carolyn Bessette show was so controversial when those first scenes of her looks came out, because people have access to the original. And I think it's creating. It's causing a creative crisis in image making because you just have so much access to know what those, like, iconic images look like. You can't. It's not like you have to go to a library to look them up. You can just pull them up on your Instagram and I'm curious, from your perspective as an image maker, has it made it harder to make things that feel original or inspired or what have you, or just your observations of generally of image making? Maybe not even in your own work?
- [42:01]
C
I don't really reference that era. My references are from Odd. I don't know, just.
- [42:09]
B
She's always screenshotting the Criterion Collection films. You have so many screenshots of, like, random movie clothing.
- [42:18]
C
Yeah. Like in your camera roll, maybe French New Wave or that. Those kind of movies. Or she takes Eric Rock pictures of
- [42:24]
B
cool people on the street sometimes, too.
- [42:26]
A
Oh, nice.
- [42:27]
C
But even, like. I don't know, I. It's like the Amish or whoever they are, the Hutterites in Montana. I mean, I have, like, or 70s. You know, I reference the 70s a lot. You also reference the night in that
- [42:49]
B
era because you were young. You weren't angsty young. In the 90s, you were like, what, 40?
- [42:58]
C
Yeah.
- [42:59]
B
And so when you're in your, like, 20s, like, that was the 70s, 80s. So that makes sense that you.
- [43:04]
C
Yeah.
- [43:05]
B
Reference that because that was your culture.
- [43:10]
C
Right.
- [43:10]
B
My studio before Queen.
- [43:12]
C
Yeah. Or. Yeah, in my 20s. Yeah. Early 20s. Anyway.
- [43:19]
A
Are you. What do you think about the sort of catalog of work that's coming out now? Like, just overall of fashion imagery and how it's evolved?
- [43:31]
C
I think there's a lot of. You know, I'm impressed. I don't think it looks the same. I think people are pushing boundaries and, you know, there's amazing photographers doing cool pictures. I'm not really saying anything, but I.
- [43:52]
A
No, I think it's having a. It's nice to hear someone who's a veteran in the industry who is still. Who feels positive sentiment towards what's happening now. Because so many people of your generation. My generation, too, are kind of like, ugh, it's over, it's over, it's over. And it's nice. I think people need to look forward and not harp on the past or what have you. Too many people do that.
- [44:23]
C
I mean, I think it's just that there's so much out there. That's what it is. Or, you know, trends. Everybody's an expert. And, like, then something that you thought was kind of niche is everywhere. So it's kind of. It gets a little exhausting. Like, things come and go, but, you know, there's always, like, some designers that will have an actual idea that is different. And, you know, like, I mean, this has been talked about forever, like the, you know, the Versace collection, that you just get very inspired by it.
- [45:11]
A
So we're going to be talking about it for the next six months.
- [45:15]
B
No,
- [45:17]
C
I mean, I want to shop at the store.
- [45:20]
B
Is there a new collection I don't know about?
- [45:23]
C
Yeah, there, there was a. It's gone.
- [45:25]
B
It's.
- [45:26]
C
It came and went.
- [45:27]
A
You can buy it now, though.
- [45:29]
B
Great to know. Okay, so I find out my fashion stuff I actually don't really care about.
- [45:34]
C
Yeah, she does.
- [45:34]
B
I don't care. It's okay.
- [45:37]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [45:38]
B
If I like something, I like it, but I don't. I also never wanted to work in fashion. It didn't seem like a very glamorous life to me.
- [45:46]
C
She saw me toiling away.
- [45:48]
A
Yeah.
- [45:49]
B
I was like, I do not want to work in fashion. I do not want to be a stylist. I do not want to have anything to do with fashion.
- [45:57]
A
You have to have a lot of physical strength to be a stylist. You're carrying a lot of shit.
- [46:01]
B
For real?
- [46:03]
A
Yeah.
- [46:03]
C
I mean, doing a shoot is like producing a little movie every time.
- [46:07]
B
Crazy.
- [46:09]
C
So, yeah, it's, it's, it's work. But you know, if you, if you're into it, it's all worth it.
- [46:16]
B
Luckily, I have zero memories of you. Well, I guess that's when people didn't work from home. When they went to the office, they worked and they went home, they didn't work. But you were never on the clock when you were with me growing up, so I had really no idea what was going on. I don't have any memories of you.
- [46:33]
C
Well, like, until you were what age? There was no cell phones actually that you were until you were like four, so that doesn't count. Yeah, but the smartphones came a little later.
- [46:44]
B
I don't know. We always played. Yeah, I have a really fun mom. She's really fun.
- [46:51]
A
Still, you two are an inspiration. Frannie, are you working on anything right now that you want to share with the fashion people audience?
- [46:57]
B
Oh, sure. I started a production company called Girl Pox and we're doing a bunch of play. We just produced a short film in la and that's exciting. But our whole thing is we're also producing like parties and events that are very immersive, non male driven work. Super fun stuff. Community driven. I think, you know, it's really expensive to go see theater and plays and if you're not on a PR list, you can't get into any parties. So we're kind of trying to merge all of that into one thing by doing either plays or like theatrical immersive events that have Comedians and fun and cool people and just anything that you know, a place where you can make a friend and have a lot of fun and get your picture taken, if that's what you're into.
- [47:51]
C
But, yeah, totally. Yeah.
- [47:55]
B
We're just doing a lot of stuff that bring people together, because I think that that's important. And I think that in fashion, I think that can be a miss. I think the fashion world's very intimidating, and anyone I knew growing up who wanted to talk to my mom about getting in the world, it seems like a world that you can't touch, that can't be breached, and now it can, and it's just an intimidating culture. So I think whatever I do, whether it's DJing or throwing events or plays, whatever it is, I just want people to feel like it's a space that they're all a part of and fun. Yeah.
- [48:32]
A
Well, I think your collaboration together is illustrative of that. Is that a word?
- [48:40]
B
Yeah, sure.
- [48:41]
A
Just because, like, your mom is an intimidating person. She's so cool.
- [48:47]
B
See, that's crazy to both of us, because she is. People will say she's. She's. Yeah, she's so not. Cause she's not a calculated person at all. Like, you're very. You live in the moment. I think she's just. You're just not. You're not like. I don't know. She's just shy. But I love to hear it, though.
- [49:07]
A
I think what this series has done has, like, shone a light on her as a. As an icon in the industry, but also has shown, like, this is what a real fashion editor is, which is a moment who is, like, cool and can be intimidating because she's not, like, in everybody's face, which can be intimidating, but also as a human being. And so, like, it's been really fun to see that, and it does feel very modern to have that sort of exposure to someone. Elisa, do you still have fun doing this stuff and making images and styling and all of that?
- [49:49]
C
I still have fun styling, but I, you know, I'm still on the uncomfortable side with the TikTok. But, yeah, I mean, I, you know, I'm not doing as much work as I used to. Like, I'm not getting as many jobs as I used to, but it's. It's fine because I, you know, had a long career. She's looking for hire, and I still want to work.
- [50:17]
A
I mean, you know, if I was,
- [50:20]
C
you know, I'm not dead yet. So if.
- [50:22]
A
If I was a young New York brand, I would Hire you. Oh, that's what I would do. Because. What. You were really good.
- [50:30]
B
They can't afford you, and you're like, what do you mean?
- [50:33]
A
Maybe they. They. Look, they all can afford it. Let's be real. We all know how it actually works. But. But I think, like, you also, you had a lot of, I think, about your work with, like, Derek Lamb, like, things like that. Like, I. I think you were very influential in ways that people don't even realize. It wasn't just editorial shoots.
- [50:54]
C
Yeah. That he was. He was great to work with.
- [50:56]
B
I love Derek.
- [50:57]
A
He's. They're so great.
- [50:58]
B
They're the nicest people, my friends, literally, in the world. Shout out to them.
- [51:03]
A
Shout out to them. They'll. They'll listen. At least Jan will listen to this and tell Derek. What?
- [51:09]
C
What?
- [51:10]
A
I. I just love the fact that, like, you all have, like, brought all these things together in this medium that feels very modern, and it shows both of your talents and your dynamic, and it. It's like a modern. It's like a family sitcom. I love it. It's really good. For saying that, thank you both for being here. It was such a pleasure. And. And for navigating a conversation that went all over the place. Somehow we got. We got through.
- [51:37]
B
Right? I think it was great. It's always fun to do something together. I get very excited about it. So it was really fun.
- [51:44]
A
Thank you. Thank you both so much, and congrats.
- [51:48]
C
Thanks, Lauren.
- [51:50]
A
Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder Jennifer John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman, and Bob Tabador.
- [52:17]
E
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