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Being a renter and now owning a home is better with built Join the membership for where you live@join built.com fashion that's J-O-I-N B I L T.com fashion make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you. You know when your hair turns out just right and it kind of sets the tone for the whole day, I feel like we're all chasing that, but none of us want to spend an hour getting to that point. That's why I've been really, really into l' ange hair lately. I switched over to their Axia hair dryer and the first thing I noticed was how compact and lightweight it is. It just makes styling feel way more manageable, especially on those mornings when you're rushing but still want your hair to look put together. And I've been using their gloss shock treatment along with it, which has been such a nice addition for my super coarse, super curly, super frizzy hair. I'll spray it on damp hair, then blow dry and it just helps everything look smoother and more polished like that fresh from the salon kind finish. But at home, which is extremely hard for me to get, it's been amazing. What's great is how these two work together. The heat from the dryer activates the treatment and you end up with soft, glossy hair in under 20 minutes. It's simple, it's quick and it just fits into real life. I definitely recommend it to anyone who wants an easy routine that still delivers super, super nice results. Go to launchhair.com and use code fashion to get 20% off your first order. That's L A N G E h a I r.com and use code FASHION for 20% off at checkout. Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Plex Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet. And today with me on the show are Jenna Lyons and Johnny Bower of the creative agency Fundamental Company. We discuss how to make a great brand. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the art world and much more. If you're interested listeners of Fashion People get a discount. Just go to Puck News Fashion People to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday everyone. Hope you're having a great week. I am in Paris for a couple more days, then I'm taking a real holiday. No, I work for a UK company for a long time I'm allowed to say holiday and then I'm back to LA for a while. I can't wait for la. No humidity. Mom's night out. Gonna see all my friends. I'm gonna see Amanda, I'm gonna see Yasi, I'm gonna see Molly. I'm gonna see so many of you. It's gonna be super fun. If I didn't say your name right there, don't worry, you're still my friend. So Toddlertown Shout out. I don't think any of them listen to this, but anyway, I cannot wait for no humidity. Los Angeles. It was a busy week. Lots happening in Line Sheet. I had a scoop regarding Michelle Obama's stylist Meredith Coup, who is kind of stepping away from working with her on a day to day basis. We never thought we'd see the day, but I have some intel on that. Then there's the caring of it all, the LVMH of it all. Lots of fun reporting there. Updates on what people are wearing in Sun Valley. Shout out to Karlie Kloss, who is a favorite of my colleague Dylan Byers, who's on the ground reporting there from the coffee shop or wherever the reporters go. But it was a fun week. Couture was really interesting. Obviously Jean Paul Gaultier was the sort of big, standout super show during Atlantic. I would say that obviously Chanel won in many ways, but JPG showed that if you don't worry about Chanel, you can do a really great job. So I really enjoyed that, and I'm just glad that this fashion season is over. But back to school in September and. And back to Paris and back to the shows, and there's just so much going on. Vogue World in Milan, a new and improved London Fashion Week. It's going to be. It's going to be interesting. But anyway, if you have any requests for what you want me to write about the next few months, let me know. I have a huge list, but I'm always taking suggestions. And let's get going with Jenna and Johnny. It was obviously very fun to talk to Jenna. She really knows how to play the game with journalists. And I've written about her so much over the years, and it was very insightful. Lots of fun. A nice break from the big world of fashion. Derek Blasberger will be on on Tuesday to talk about couture and his new book, Fast and Louche, which I'm sure you'll enjoy. I know you guys all love when I, Derek Brown, younger, we have a real chemistry, I would say. But let's get going with Jenna and Johnny. Johnny Bauer and Jenna Lyons, welcome to Fashion People.
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B
Thank you.
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C
Good morning.
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A
What did you all have for breakfast this morning? Have you had breakfast? It's pretty early still.
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B
I. I had a bagel. I did. I said I made my son a bagel and joined him.
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C
We are on the egg bite train in our family. We make them on the weekends and run through them during the week.
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A
Oh, nice. I'm a big egg bite fan, too. I feel like if you're on Instagram and recipes pop up, there's one. One egg bite recipe an hour.
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C
We. We fight over them. Who's going to get the egg whites? Who's going to get the full egg yolk? It's a process.
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A
Okay, so how you two are here together, how did you two meet? I would venture to say that everyone who's listening to this knows who you are. Jenna. You're very famous in the fashion people world. Johnny, probably half the people know who you are and 75% know about the work that you've done. So maybe, Jenna, I don't know if you need to give your elevator pitch, but Johnny, maybe you can start and say who you are and how, why you two are in the room together.
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B
Firstly, I think 50% is very generous. I'm very comfortable being a plus one and. But Jenna and I have known each other for a long time and I grew up in the agency world, the brand strategy and agency world. I was one of the founding partners of Droga5 and then ended up at Blackstone helping them think through strategy and transformation for its portfolio of companies. And that is where Jenner and I started collaborating on some. They have a lot of different kinds of companies and Jenna and I worked together on some real estate companies, some beauty companies and some power companies. And from there they were very, very productive engagements. And the opportunity came up to we outgrew the practice at Blackstone. The demand for us from the CEOs and from the investors was greater than what we're able to build within Blackstone. So at the beginning of 2024, we carved ourselves out into an independent value creation consultancy, a brand led value creation consultancy called Fundamental Co, that helps companies, you know, with their fundamentals. And Jenna, you know, thankfully decided to make this her thing too. So we've been, you know, going in our current guys for, you know, around nearly coming up to two and a half years.
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A
So I want to talk about what value creation means to you in brand perspective. But Jenna, maybe you can talk a bit about. Obviously you worked at J. Crew for a long time. I've been writing about you for 15 years in your various forms. But you could do a lot of different things. You're a very in demand designer, creative director, and you've decided in your post J. Crew career to kind of dip into a lot of different projects. But this one in particular, like a, why, why didn't you start your own brand yourself and go that route, but it decided to help other brands and B, why this project with Johnny in particular and Blackstone?
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C
Great question. I think there's a lot of reasons. There's a couple of different questions in there. So I'll start with the why I didn't do my own. The reason I didn't do my own is what I found is as you get to this senior leadership place in a company like J. Crew, what happens is you're not doing the work anymore. You're not actually getting to do the creative thinking the way that I grew up doing. And what I really enjoyed. And I found that predominantly I was sitting in finance meetings, you know, strategy meetings and, and mostly like HR meetings. And it was really disconnected from doing the creative thinking. And the work that really got me excited was, you know, the process and touching things and being in Meetings with people where we were discussing ideas. I. I was really a yes or no person at that point. I wasn't, you know, oftentimes even getting to the meetings where things were being discussed at the early nascent stage because everyone wanted to, like, present to me. And I thought, okay, that's not. That's fine. Like, I. It was. It worked for me for a while, but at that point in my career, I wanted to be in the room again. I wanted to be having the conversations. I wanted to be able to have creative conversations, creative ideas, and solve problems and be a part of a team and not just be the person sitting in the corner office. So that's why I didn't want to do my own thing. And then separately, why Johnny and why this? I think what I didn't realize over time is that while I had grown up in fashion, so much of my career had really stemmed and really connects to so many different things that I see that are happening today. And what I mean by that is, if you look at the problems that companies face or the challenges or the excitement, the moments of opportunity, they have a lot of similarities in them. Meaning oftentimes what you see with the problems is that they're actually looking at themselves. They don't have a chance to get outside of themselves. And I think sometimes what happens is when you come in from the outside, you're able to see things that people who are sitting on the inside aren't necessarily able to. And that's a really fun moment to be able to discuss and to be able to add value to a team who maybe doesn't have the actual bandwidth or the wherewithal to think about what's going on inside. And also to galvanize a group of people where you get a lot of different teams in a room and actually allow them to think differently. It can really change the conversation. And so that, to me, has been incredibly fun. I think the work that I started doing with Johnny very early on when he was at Blackstone, I was surprised at how connected it was to my experience. So many of the moments in my. In my previous life have really led me to this, and I never would have thought that, but it also led me to doing the work and not just being the one who make it to make a decision, but actually to, like, what does it look like to put it together? What does it look like to really think about what's happening here and to try to solve problems. And. I don't know, it's been great for my brain. Not all the Things I've done have been great for my brain.
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A
Sometimes that's good. You know, sometimes there are things that are bad for your brain that fill you up in a different way.
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C
So, yes, I mean, listen, I did. I obviously tried the Real Housewives and that not to get into it, but I think it. I've been in this place where I have done everything that I was supposed to do for so long. I followed the path. I did everything in corporate America that people expected me to do and myself. And so I've been in this place where I've gotten to try so many different things, and it's allowed me to see what really, like, moves me and what makes me feel good and what makes me feel, you know, challenged and also, like, engaged in a way. So it's been. It's been so incredibly fun.
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A
It's been fun to write and report about your life. Jenna, I can't wait for you to write your book someday. I'm available if you need someone.
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C
Oh, okay. Laura, thank you.
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A
We can talk, Jonny, really quickly before we get into the work y' all are doing now. Can you. I would love to hear a little bit about Droga5 and what attracted you to Blackstone in particular. I talk to a lot of investment firms. The thing about private equity specifically is a lot of times it depends. Like, every private equity firm is different. Blackstone is one of the biggest investment firms in the world. They have different. You know, there's a lot going on there, so you can't kind of put it in one box. But generally, a lot of these companies are not operational. They don't care about brand. They don't even care about the brand when they are looking at investments. Many of them don't have taste. Like, some investment firms are very driven by taste, and that's their pattern, is that they like a certain thing. Other investment firms are only driven by whether they think it's going to. There's going to be a big exit and how many big exits. Or. Or some investment firms are just looking for medium exits on a lot of different things. But coming from the agency world, and you built this very in demand agency, you go to work for a private equity firm, like, what was your thinking? And how did they convince you that they were serious about helping their portfolio? Because a lot of these firms are. I'm not saying it in a negative way. It's just not what they're about.
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B
Yeah, no, I think that. I do think firstly that, you know, these firms are very. They're all. They're all interested in the good exit. I think that that is a threat amongst all of them. And I had a thesis that if brand had a better seat at the value creation table, that it could help contribute to even better exits. And so that was the, you know, the thinking. Often you're right in a private equity backed context, the brand people could be the people that come in at the end, right? They'll buy a company, they'll do a ton of interventions and then they'll sit down and bring in the brand people and think, you know, who are we and why do we exist? And I had a thesis to bring that, that thinking much further upstream or earlier in the value creation process. And before any interventions happen, we sit down and create a clear set of ideas that will define what the company's next chapter is and articulate to everyone within the company. Not just the marketing folks, but the talent folks and the product folks and the technology folks. This is what we're becoming next because that will be a more valuable thing than we are are now. And then we came up with a framework and set of structures that enable everyone within the company to be able to access and use exactly the same words to describe those ideas and then connect them to all those interventions. And the way that I got into private equity was we were doing these kind of big transformative brand ideas at Drogo, the best advertising agency in the world, agency of the decade 2010 to 2020. I enjoyed and loved every one of my 14 years there, every day of my 14 years there. But we were coming up with a lot of transformational ideas. But very often we just ended up transforming the advertising. And so that was my frustration. And I thought that brand could be connected to more than marketing and should be useful to everyone within the company. And so I approached Blackstone with this thesis because I thought that private equity was a really unique context or moment to insert brand thinking. Because a company's just been bought, there's a new management team, it's a reset where we're really thinking through what a company, you know, they bought a company but they want to sell a company for more than their border company, so obviously they need to change it. And the efficiency based playbook to value creation, taking stuff out is just played out and we're headed to a world of more of a vision based playbook where we can think through what could a company become next as a way of making it more valuable. So I knocked on Blackstone's door with a little presentation and said, this is my theory. I think that we can give brand a different seat at the table by bringing it into the process earlier and after. I think, I don't exaggerate 40 or so interviews. It wasn't them convincing me, it was me convincing them. They gave me a job and I built a team and we started this practice and now we work with, you know, 10 different sponsors. We work with everyone from Bain Capital to Apollo and Towerbrook, an amazing company, Thrive Capital, as well as some public companies. And the thesis is really catching on that if brand does have the right seat at the table, is brought in early enough and is a CEO endeavor rather than just a CMO endeavor, then the right types of brand strategy can become instruction for everyone within the company rather than just the folks in messaging and marketing. If that makes sense. I'm sorry, there's a very long answer. But that is the arc of how we got to where we got to.
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A
It makes a lot of sense. And the upstream bringing brand in earlier, I have 15 questions around that, but I'm going to try to only make them one parter. So to start private equity is again, it really varies. But some of these businesses, when they are bought, they're worth $1 billion. Some of them are worth 250 million. These are not small businesses and they're usually 10, 15, 20 years old. Sometimes when they're bought by private equity, sometimes 5 or 4, the turnaround of when they would like an exit for private equity is like three to five and sometimes if you're lucky, 10. But what are the challenges and the opportunities of a brand that size to do a true brand overhaul? Because like you already have an audience that knows the brand. So it's not like it's completely new development at the same time. Usually when it's bought by private equity, there's a lot more room to grow. So what are the sort of advantages of being that size and the challenges of being of being that far in your journey?
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B
Well, I think what you bring up is the kind of ideas that make most sense for this context, which is they're chapter two moments, right? So they're like, how do you take what's great about this company and figure out collectively where it has permission to go next credibly, Right. And so often there's that saying of what got you from here to here won't get you from that are there? And that's often why private equity is bought in because they can bring a different set of capabilities and scale and capital to help take a company to another level. And that is you know that, that that's what Blackstone's, you know, always done. There is always an investment thesis. There is a clear reason why they believe it's a great company to buy. Right? We just help then translate that thesis into a set of ideas that really can bring everyone along and help transform the company or evolve it to its next place. I will say, though, that AI has dramatically raised the stakes for anyone who doesn't have a real irreducible idea at the center of their brand. And AI is the great equalizer of execution, right? It will close the gap on content, imagery, personalization, campaign, production, all of it. And for every brand that doesn't have a genuine point of view, which means the only thing that truly differentiates are the things that can't be automated, are average, are a specific idea and a real belief system. And it's really crucial to make sure that that is front and center in the context of value creation, because you have to. A brand needs to be able to answer, how is it the only? How is it not just the biggest or the first or the best, but the only? And that is the no. That's the ammunition that we like to arm brands with at the, you know, at the. At the onset of a value creation plan.
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A
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D
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A
So, Jenna, where do you come in on this? Like, what value are you bringing to the plan? And how is Johnny and the rest of the team using your expertise to help develop these companies?
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C
Well, I think I want to go back to something that you said earlier, Lauren, because I think it is a lot of what I think people think and understand or expect. And what I also maybe did when I first joined and started talking with Johnny, I think as you were talking about private equity and their perspective on aesthetics and that, you know, the look and feel isn't necessarily at the core. And I think what I. What I came to understand in a much deeper way is that brand is not just about what it looks like. It's not just about the logo. It's not just about the beauty. What it really is, and as Johnny was mentioning, is like, what is the core representation of this company and what makes them special and what makes them different? And I think when you look at brand from that perspective, you know, and I saw this happen in my previous career, too, where you. What you see is when there's a bifurcated or sort of splintered idea of what the brand should be, it makes it very difficult for the communication of that brand to be unified and to look like something and to have a clear point of view. And so whether you are a company who is looking for an exit or you need, as you said, a brand overhaul. Even when you're a large brand, a brand overhaul doesn't necessarily mean we're changing you. What it means is we're bringing you into focus. We're saying, how did you get here? So what's your core competency? What are you really good at? What are the things that you do that no one else can do or that you are maybe positioned to do, that you could actually do better than the others in the marketplace? So we can make you differentiated, and what are the things that are actually, like, special about the core team? What are your beliefs? What do you. And what do you want to be about? So, like, how do we think about those things and then reorganize everyone and everything? I think an interesting example, one of the brands we worked with was Laura Mercier, and, you know, over time, a legacy brand, what happens is everyone inside the company grows up expecting and thinking that the Company is going to do X. And if you are now saying, listen, we want to reorganize ourselves, we need to get everyone on the same page. And what we found was that the people who were developing the product had a very different concept of what they were supposed to be doing and what the brand was about than the people who were actually making the advertising. The people who were actually hiring the team all had a slightly different version. None of them were wrong, but they were all slightly different. And when you look at how that. It doesn't galvanize a company. It doesn't get them connected to a core idea of how they're all thinking about the same thing. So after going through this process, all of a sudden, the team that's developing the product that is so far out front, they're a year up front, actually knows what the entire company is about and is more in line with where they're going. And so I think so much of what I think I've. I've been excited to be a part of is that I don't have. I have no skin in the game in that sense. I'm not invested in whether we do purple or pink. I know it doesn't matter whether we go down this road or that. I actually get to sit back and see. And so much of my previous role at J. Crew was really guiding. You know, we had three different brand. So so much of that was saying, okay, how is J. Crew different than madewell? And what are the best parts of madewell and how do we protect them and keep J. Crew out of them? How do we do the same thing with J Crew and Factory? How do we keep them doing their own thing and keeping them separate? So, so much of it is being able to recognize at a bird's eye level what's really great about this and what needs to be protected. What can we let go of and what do we need to actually reinforce and put more attention behind? And I think that's a lot of what that we've been doing here.
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B
And an example of that is a 24, arguably the world's coolest company, doing so many incredible things in film and television, going from a distribution to a creator. But now that they've opened a restaurant, they bought a theater, the question that we're answering for them is what is the fence that they would build around categorically where they would and wouldn't play? So would they. Would they make a theme park? Would they go into music? We're not answering any of those questions. But then so We've helped them kind of carve that fence around the company, but then also for the areas within the fence, what is the contribution that they would need to make to that category for it to be allowed to be called a 24 and put their brand on it? Right. How will they know if they're a 24ing a category versus anyone else? And so using the brand as a filter for decision making to help bring everyone along around. We would only do this if we worked in this way. Likewise, we're working with Hilton Hotels. This is Project Jenna's leading, where they're developing an entirely new brand in a lot of cities where they're looking for a concept at the core to define why this new property exists, what it offers its guests in a way that others don't. And that is the idea is permeate through from like the physical architecture itself down to what brand of seltzer will be in the fridge. And they're all closely connected to one set of idea that now everyone within that, you know, that project team there is using as a filter to inform what they're doing. It's not just showing up in the messaging or in the commercials.
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A
One thing that I've done a lot of in my. My coverage at Puck is really think about, like, we really try to only the rubric for companies that we cover, people that we cover is, are they interesting? Like, are they brands that people care about? Or it's sometimes it's a small company that has never made more than $90 million a year in sales, sometimes 5 million. Sometimes it's a $50 billion company. And then there are giant companies no one cares about, and we don't write about them. But on the other hand, do you think people are so emotional about brands? Like, do you think that that is as important as it was even 20 years ago? One company we cover quite a bit is Nike. And people who grew up with Nike are very emotional about Nike. I think consumer today likes Nike. A lot of them like Nike. I mean, Nike has had, quote, unquote, challenges. I don't. It's. It's hard to put that in the context of a business that is still growing in some areas. But I don't know if the consumer today is as emotional about Nike. And I don't know if there's anything Nike can do to get them to be more emotional. Do you all think that people are still as caught up in brand today as they were 20 years ago? Why or why not?
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B
Yes, I mean, I do. I think that, yeah, When a brand makes a meaningful connection or has a credible role that's clearly defined and consistently executed, it really does play well. I think that particularly in. And I know that you mostly report on, you know, like, fashion. And for a long time, you could get away with, you know, a new logo, a new creative director, a buzzier name, and the market would give you credit for it. But now it doesn't. I do think consumers are sharper, they're more skeptical, and they've seen so many of these maneuvers to be fooled by surface change. And so the crisis that is happening is more of an identity crisis, in the deepest sense of the word, that when brands really don't know what they stand for anymore, that trouble. But then I think you take something like road, right? Which is, you know, I know, you know, Hailey Bieber didn't launch with, like, a celebrity licensing play. She built a brand around an actual point of view on skin that she'd been living with and communicating years before she even launched the product. So the brand felt like the logical conclusion of who she already was. And that's why it worked, and that's why it mattered. And that's why it was this $212 million in sales before she'd done any retail presence at, you know, at all. So when it's coherent, when it's clear, when it's credible, and when it's connected, we think that these brands matter. And there's also, like, different kinds of relationships that people will have within, you know, different brands. You're going to have a different relationship with your, you know, with your, your, your. Your. Your hospital brand than your, you know, than your nail polish brand or your car brand. You're like, there. There are certain categories that are just higher involvement categories that cost more money, that are higher stakes, and the relationships are deeper. But I think, to answer your question, overall, no brands matter. But people just can't be squinting around why they matter. They need to be clear and connected and consistent.
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A
Jenna, do you have a point of view on that? As someone who worked at the same brand for three decades and now you're observing all these, the way all these other brands operate?
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C
I think what I saw then, and I think it still stands true, is that people know the difference. People are smart, and people actually care, and they care when there is a real ethos behind something. They care when they believe in the person. If there is a person behind it, they want to know more. They want to actually connect with that. I think, you know, when you're talking about Nike versus a road as an example. Like, there's no specific person behind Nike. While there might be an athlete that you connect with, that's where you're getting your emotion. You're getting your emotion to believing in that athlete and wanting their career to survive or them to do well and be successful. And so you're attaching that emotion to that person where it's a little less distinctive because Nike doesn't have that. But with Haley, people are connected to her. You know, there's a brand called Husband's Paris, which is a, you know, tailoring, a men's tailoring brand, which are smiling, so you must be familiar. And, you know, I think I have absolutely fallen in love with Nico, who is the purveyor of that brand. And it's because I can see how much he cares. You go for a fitting with him and you literally understand. This man has put everything. He has all of his knowledge, and he's created and carved, carved out something that is truly unique and you believe in it and you want to be a part of it. And I think that still matters. People still care. And I think there just needs to be a direct understanding and connection to that. I don't think that people don't care about brand the same way I think they care about people, as they always have.
- [33:56]
A
What do you all think about the idea of luxury and. And how it is. Husbands is a great example of this. I was having a drink in Paris last night with a friend who's a film producer, and we were talking about. I'm rubbing my two fingers together, which is like that intangible thing that you get from luxury. And I was talking about the fact that, you know, covering fashion business. I used to write about a lot more brands that were based in the US and increasingly I write about startups in the US and the luxury groups in, in Europe because there isn't as much of that intangible thing left in product businesses. And she mentioned something that I thought was interesting. Here in France, chocolate companies, there's a lot of luxury elements. When you go in for Easter to buy candy, everybody's wearing white gloves. And it's a really special experience. So when you give the gift, it feels more special. And we were talking, you know, everybody's talking about charvet shirts right now. I went to get a demi custom and, you know, it's €600. It's not nothing, but it was the most special shopping experience of my life. What do you all think is happening in that part of, I guess the word is the luxury business. But I think it's more just about the specialness in products and people are obviously craving that. I'm just wondering if you're. If you see more brands trying to bring that kind of specialness to what they do.
- [35:37]
B
Yeah, I think that there's been like a premiumization of just about every category from candy to toilet paper. And you know, there is this, and some of it feels performative and some of it feels really authentic and credible. And you remember when Method, the cleaning company, or Dyson Vacuum Cleaner, like, brought a different level of what premium could mean in a category Method around, you know, an environmental belief. And they brought a design sensibility, but they really pulled it through everything. And Dyson, you know, just brought a new level of technology. And like, I worked on Dyson and helped launch it in the US and people would leave their closet doors open. So when visitors came, they saw that they had a dice it. But it was, it started at an unbelievable product and which then pulled really credibly through the whole, you know, experience. And so when it, you know, when it comes to luxury, it's a little bit more, you know, esoteric and a little bit hard to, hard to put your finger on. But when you, when you look at like how premium products can then be pulled through and you look at something like the row and you see not only their approach to branding, but they ban phones at their shows, they refuse logo mania, and they're quietly pulling the most affluent clients away from Hermes and Chanel. And that's not a marketing strategy, you know, that is an idea about what luxury means and the discipline to run an entire business through it. And so when you've got the chocolate folks with the glove, and it's just the glove, but then you taste the product and it tastes like, I don't want to say a brand that's not premium chocolate, but you know what I mean? Or you don't feel great after, or you can see that you can't pronounce many of the ingredients, then that's not elevated. The gloves alone won't do it. So what is the concept that if you look at the. The company called Unreal Foods, right? Like they've taken better for you versions of many of Candy's, you know, favorites snickers, M&M's chocolate covered coconut bars. But they're really real and they have much. They have superior ingredients and they're actually delivering a different thing to candy, right? Not just the gloves. So. So when there's a concept that's Pulled through? Yes. When it's performative window dressing, then no.
- [37:55]
C
I think this is also like results of transparency. People want to understand and believe and know what is in their product, whether it is cleaning fluids or a suit. And I think that, you know, there has been big business has existed for a long time and there hasn't really, it's been a little opaque for the customer. And I think as we've social media and this direct connection to what's going on behind the scenes in the brand and these young brands being able to storytell directly to their consumer and say, here's why we do this, here's what's important and here's why you should believe in it. Because it's different and better for you or better made, whatever it may be, that is allowing you as the consumer to make that choice. And I think that level of transparency with a brand and that finding that connection and that storytelling is vital. And I think it's what makes you believe.
- [38:39]
B
Yeah, I know that Aesop, the, you know, the now ubiquitous design soap brand like you, you know, I think you have to work at that company for two years before, as a designer, before you're allowed to work on packaging. And every single like floral arrangement placed in the store needs to be photographed and said sent back to home office before it's approved. Like it's that level of discipline, right? Like, you know, you want to be the design brand. Like it's that level of, you know, precision and consistency and enforcement.
- [39:12]
C
It's just great.
- [39:12]
A
It sounds like to me it's about doing really, really, you use the word discipline, but also just like very deep work. Because especially now because so much can be done by AI, even if it's not design related, it's just you can clean up stuff very quickly, you can edit things. AI is going to make everything more efficient. But then if you're not doing the deep work, there's nothing underneath. And that's when the consumer is like, I'm good.
- [39:39]
C
And I think, you know, even on the subject of AI, like I have someone who comes in and we are trained and sort of to understand what it is, what it's capable of, where it's going. And one of the things that the gentleman that we've been working with said AI is only as good as the input. And so, you know, interestingly enough, it's great for people who have more experience, like both Johnny and I have experience of giving direction, being able to recognize when something doesn't feel quite right and then redirect that that's, that is someone who's lived in the creative world and had a creative language build for years. Where it, it doesn't do well is if you are not able to direct it, I think it actually will just allow you to regurgitate and, and sort of put out substandard work. And so I think this is an interesting, it's an interesting time, but it's a, it's great to have had that experience because, you know, the quality of the creative input is actually very, it's vital for AI because it's the one place in terms of creativity that it does not necessarily have the best sort of learning at this point. That's, it's the most underdeveloped part.
- [40:35]
B
Yeah. And it's, it's, there's, I mean there's a, there are a couple of things, you know, that I believe that the companies that are genuinely thriving now aren't the ones that have changed their name or just themselves up. They are the ones that went back to first principles and asked like, what does this company actually believe and does everything the downstream product, taste, talent, retail pricing, who they collaborate with really like reflect that. And at this point, especially in fashion and the kind of brands that you cover, taste is one of the only things that genuinely can't be faked. Right. And it can't be scaled, you know, without diluting it. And it also can't be manufactured by a committee. And it's increasingly rare. Right. And, and most organizations are structured in a way that systematically erodes it. Right. And decisions get made by committee, trends, by data. AI democratizes all of that doesn't work. And by last quarter's metrics and taste requires a conviction that most institutional processes are designed to kind of sand down, right? And so if you don't really have that, if you don't do the hard work, and we talk about this in. My very early boss said to me, you know, interrogate a brand until it confesses, right? Like if you don't have that confession around, only you to guide that. All of the AI, all of the trends, all of the like, they're never going to like people are too smart now to not see a credible, ownable, distinctive contribution to a category. And to your earlier question around what creates the connection or the love it is that authenticity around, around the why they even exist in the face.
- [42:20]
C
First place.
- [42:26]
E
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- [43:26]
A
I'm curious to know your thoughts on zombie brands, which has a broad definition, but there are a lot of brands that I don't know if this comparison's gonna land, but you know, in the UK people are famous for a really long time and you can like be on a show in 1996 and you're still in the tabloids in 2006 and people still kind of give you the same weight that they did back then. I feel like there are a lot of brands floating around in the world that have meaning to people, but that don't have a reason to exist anymore. And they're either owned by a licensing firm and in some cases not. But why do you all think there are so many of these right now? And I obviously there's a lot of licensing firms that are very well funded that are trying to juice them for all they're worth, but generally there's just so many, like there's Roberto Cavalli and Barneys and Betsy Johnson and et cetera, et cetera. We could just go on forever. Of all these brands that mean something to someone, but they're like meaning in the current culture is unclear. Why do you think there's such a proliferation of that right now?
- [44:46]
C
Well, I think if you look at some of the brands you mentioned, like Betsey Johnson for instance, I think when there is a creator who starts again, people fell in love with Betsey Johnson and she had an ethos and an idea and it was clear Betsy Johnson was the filter for that brand. There wasn't a single thing that went down that Runway that she wouldn't have worn, that she wouldn't have done a somersault in and that she didn't believe in. It was her. You were buying into her and her whole world and the way she saw things and saw print and color and fun. And when in absence of her, I think oftentimes and this is not surprising. This happens, I think more frequently than not when a brand that has a person behind it is purchased or licensed, you lose the person and you lose that, that passion and that point of view and no one ever replaces it. There isn't necessarily the same level of reverence or respect for that. And so I think what happens is then it just literally is coasting on whatever was built at the very beginning and then it just sort of fizzles over time. And I think there is a real lack of understanding of how much that initial founder's passion and inspiration drives the value of the brand. And it, it, it just, I've seen it happen more than.
- [45:56]
B
And that's why the, the, the, that ethos from the founder needs to be translated into a set of ideas that everyone can implement that even go beyond the founder. And when that doesn't happen, that's where you get left. Or that could also happen to a different set of ownership structures. So if you look at something like, you know, Ghost brand, that's like my favorite of all time is Saab, right? And you know, Saab was a brand that totally, you know, it was always
- [46:25]
A
still dreaming about a Saab.
- [46:28]
B
It always signified independence, something slightly quirky. They didn't design to many of the same rules. They came from, you know, an aircraft background and brought many, much of that technology into it. And it also then attracted a different kind of personality that was buying a more kind of like understated or restrained, you know, version of luxury. But when you, that company then went under new ownership and started using shared platforms and the quirk started to lose its way out of the vehicles, it ended up with middle management mobiles that had no personality. And so if the people that do own the licensing rights to Saab, we would love to reimagine that within the Electric era or there's definitely a place for the world needs a few more quirky car brands that contribute. But likewise, there are so many of these brands that, from a Pan Am to a Polaroid to a Blockbuster, could they be reimagined with curatorial roles in this context now that the distribution universe has changed? So it's about taking what was most special and then making sure it's constantly adapting to an evolving context. Because many of those brands got left behind by technology like a Polaroid or Blockbuster or Radio Shack or even Borders Books, right? Like these are cool brands that had meaningful places but didn't evolve their purpose to adapt to new contexts. And that's, that's the work that we really love to do and think about.
- [48:06]
A
Do you ever feel like brands should just die? That don't that like people should just leave them alone and just say like it's good. It was, it was good while it lasted. Let's not keep going on it.
- [48:20]
C
It. Well, I think, listen, I think in absence of a real point of view like there, there's no place to go. So I think, I don't know if I would ever say a brand should ever die but I do think that like sometimes people don't actually go in for open heart surgery when they need to. I think there's some things that you know, when a brand doesn't have anything at its core and there is no sort of philosophy and there's no one at the helm who has creativity or who's thinking about where it can go, like what's the point? Like there needs. I do. Things can't just exist in without purpose. Like it just A person can't exist without purpose and a brand can exist without purpose. So if there isn't like a guiding light or a guiding force or some real like definitive organizing idea that gets everyone excited that everyone can. What are you doing?
- [49:04]
B
Yeah, yeah. I, I, I, I will not voice which brands I think should die.
- [49:09]
A
Well, they should all pay you all to fix them is what they should do.
- [49:13]
C
Thank you.
- [49:14]
A
Okay, one final question. I write a lot about these like 10 year old startups that were had really strong I'd say starts to their brand not just from the marketing perspective but from in some cases at least like the intention in the product and then in many cases the product. Great example. Hopefully they're not your client or maybe they should be as Everlane for instance. Like the intention, the actual brand was there, the marketing but the, the product itself, did it hold up? No, but they tried and it could have if, if it had gone a different way. That would be reformation. Reformation is a good example that they did it right. Everlane could have done that too. But these Everlane glossier like this generation of brands like you have the reformations and the Warby Parkers that made it and then you have all these other ones that are still sort of in the middle. They still exist and people have a lot of emotion towards them. People care about them, they want them to succeed. They aren't companies that like a Blackstone at this point would purchase because they aren't big enough to warrant, you know, I, I don't know. I mean there are other private equity firms that would but there's a ton of bias for those companies. Sure. But like, if they're. That's arguable that though, because, like, there's a ton of buyers, but why haven't they been bought? So, like, the question I have for you is when you've gotten like 10 years into it, because a lot of the companies you're working with are a little bit more mature and a little bit stronger in terms of how far they've gotten. Like, if you're, you're a startup that started out strong and you're still pretty young and you've sort of hit a roadblock and you don't know how to, where to go next, like, what do you think those brands need to do versus something a little bit more mature that's maybe had already one really strong run that to get to a billion dollars in sales or what have you.
- [51:19]
C
I don't think that the size of the company changes the need or the desire to actually make sure that you're in the right place. I think we've worked with companies who are smaller and have done some augmented business plans with them to make sure that we can actually support them. Because it is, I think, a very similar challenge, whether you are at a billion dollars or whether you're at 6 million or 15 million, whatever, what have you. And I think oftentimes, the moment that you see this inflection point, oftentimes they're facing some of the same challenges, whether they're big or small, is that they have to either adapt to what the changing markets are. Who are they, what are they going to be now? They might, they maybe need to think about, are they, are they going in the direction or what their core competency. Are they all aligned? Are they splintered? Do they need to really rethink, think what they're doing? Is there something that they can be doing differently? Is the purpose of what they're doing, what they set out to do, still aligned with where they want to go and does it meet the market needs? If they're looking to increase their tam, what's the best way to do that? How do they reach to, you know, the external markets to see, like, what is the best move for them? So I think they're not, they're not disparate challenges. They're. They're actually, I think, ultimately aligned. And I think, I think the mistake oftentimes is not pulling the trigger to say, like, let's really take a look at ourselves now before it's too late,
- [52:30]
B
and let's make decisions around what we don't do right versus not just what we do, which is like, getting that focus. And you see a lot of brands proliferating, expanding categorically. And then people are like, I actually don't understand what they are now. Right. And so, you know, you can even, you know, I went into Lululemon store and I was like, I had no idea. They made, like, business pants. Like, do I understand what this company. So that discipline is, you know, it's really important, of course. And now I think we're, you know, we just keep banging the same drum. Like, we just think that, you know, creating that clarity, but then connecting it to what Jenna was talking about. Prioritized, sized and valued audiences to understand. Very clear understanding of who your audience is, where they are, and why what you're doing, you know, matters to them is as much as, you know, making sure the idea is clear and connected. So we do a lot of that work, too.
- [53:32]
A
Final question for you. I talk a lot about whether or not there's a future in Ready to Wear with. With businesses of every different size. I was just with a CEO of a small eyewear company, and he was saying he. When he was getting out of business school, he really just didn't see he wanted to be an eyewear or fragrance because he just didn't see what the kind of business potential in Ready to Wear is. I don't know how much you all, obviously, Jenna, you worked in Ready to Wear for a long time, but I don't know how much you all like how many of the brands you're working with are apparel or clothing or so adjacent to that at any price point. But what do you all think about what's happening in that market? Like, the big thing for me, it doesn't matter what the price is, but the secondhand market has just transformed how people shop for clothes. Like, people obviously still need clothes, but they're either wanting, like, a very special experience, like husbands or charvet, if they have the income for that or if they don't, you know, they're buying amazing bags for $250 on the RealReal. And it's just sort of, I think, disrupted that market in a way that no one could have ever anticipated even five years ago. And I'm just curious what you all think about, like, if someone came up to you tomorrow and said, I'm going to start a fashion brand, what would you all say to them?
- [55:04]
C
Well, I think. I mean, I think there's two things that are happening, and I think we can use husbands as one you know, as one example, I use that one as one and then I think you can look at Gap. I think that again, like think Gap has been, you know, sort of lost at sea for quite some time. And I think the thing that they did was they really changed the way that they communicate and the way that they looked at product. And they actually brought in like there's vision there, there is excitement there. And I think, I think that says a lot. People really want to believe in something. They want something to feel differentiated. They just don't want a sea of nothing. And I, I don't think that ready to wear is dead. People will need clothes, they will always need clothes. But I think the same way that Zara and Uniqlo entering the market has shifted pricing perspective for everyone in the industry. We're seeing that across the board and I don't think that's ever going away. The RealReal is also doing that I think at the luxury end. But the fact of the matter is, you said it yourself at the top of the conversation, you're doing more very small startups and big luxury. And I think we're going to see a leveling at a certain point. I think that luxury will probably still continue to do just as well. There's a lot of people who would never buy a bag. The majority of the sales coming from Chanel and we don't are not from people buying secondhand. I think what it's done is it's opened up a new market is not shifting someone who would have gone to a Chanel store into the RealReal. It's just giving someone who maybe couldn't get in there before an opportunity to do so now. And I think, you know, I don't think that that's going to have as much of an impact on the luxury market as I will for some of the other mid tier markets who are maybe trying to provide a bag to somebody at, you know, the $250 and maybe now their landscape is slightly more shifted. But I think watching what's happened with the Gap and how very quickly it has turned, people are, are all of a sudden interested. My kids are wearing the clothes, people are talking about it, the commercials are great, people are there on the tip of the tongue. Zach's taking someone to the Met Gala, like those kinds of things just put you in the center of the conversation and getting yourself in the center of the conversation, as long as the product is there and the purpose is good and people believe in what you're doing, it is game changeable. And I think it actually shows so much about how important this galvanization of, like, vision is and having, you know, a real something that people can believe in, it doesn't, you know, and when there's just this sort of wandering and loss at sea, kind of vague connect purpose, it doesn't. It doesn't translate, and people lose interest very quickly.
- [57:24]
A
Johnny, what about you?
- [57:26]
B
I'm going to leave the fashion stuff to Jenna.
- [57:28]
A
Okay. Brand is brand, right?
- [57:32]
B
Yes.
- [57:32]
C
Yeah. Brand is. Well, but I think. I think that as we've been talking about, I think. I think it's been used too ubiquitously, and I think that there is a. There is a lack of clarity on what it really means. And I think everyone has a slightly different version of what they think it means. And I think brand at the core, brand, when brand is good, Brand is a mission, it is a purpose, and it is actually what makes you special. Good point.
- [57:55]
B
Yeah. Both.
- [57:58]
A
Thank you both so much. This was such a pleasure. It was really fun to chat.
- [58:01]
C
It was nice to see you again.
- [58:02]
B
Thanks so much. I really enjoyed this. Thank you.
- [58:07]
A
Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. The show is produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, producer Maya Tribbett, and director of editorial operations, Gobby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, Kelly Turner and Bob Tabador.