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- [00:00]
Lauren Sherman
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- [04:34]
Bonnie Morrison
Hello, Lauren. This is so exciting. I'm so pleased to be with you tonight.
- [04:39]
Lauren Sherman
This is a long time coming. It should have happened way before, but you wrote an amazing piece that made me think, stop the presses. I gotta have Bonnie on this, this episode. Because you always speak the truth. And. And I just thought you had a lot of really interesting things to say in your newsletter today, which is called Is it okay? Everyone should subscribe. Is it okay? And Bonnie is sort of. Who's the, like, Miss Manners. You're like the modern Miss Manners and you answer all the. Is it okay if I act a certain way? Is it okay not to like this? Is it okay not to like something? You're. You're always answering the sort of existential questions of modern society and how to go through life. So thank you so much.
- [05:25]
Bonnie Morrison
Yeah, I try to make them timely, which is not hard. I mean, I think there's always something. There always seems to be something in the discourse that people are trying to reconcile, especially. And I think that that's been the case ever since I launched, which I think. I think I launched it in 2023, because I think, you know, in. Starting in, you know, in 2021, when we're all cooped up in the house but we're dealing, like, major social upheaval, I would often get people who would, you know, want to, particularly around social media, and I'm always surprised about how much it. Even the sort of existential questions, as you say, are really, really have to do with our Internet behavior so much. So many of the things that I think, you know, we feel create these ethical dilemmas or these. This strife between, you know, friends and family members and how we. How we show up in the world always hinge on something that wouldn't have been an issue before we had the Internet in our lives.
- [06:22]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [06:22]
Bonnie Morrison
And so I think, you know, people would reach out and they would say, oh, you know, I want to post this, but I don't want it to be performative. I want to post this, and I don't want to get canceled. I don't want to, you know, people. And by the way, these were just friends, you know, people like my sister. It's not like my sister has, you know, a million Instagram. I think the only people who follow her could be part of her family. But I think people. It was something that people rightly were very sensitive about. So I would just sort of give my two cents. And then that. That evolved into this newsletter, which has been illuminating, and people have been really nice. And you're. And you're nice to. You're nice to pay me a compliment. So I'm. I'm grateful for that.
- [06:55]
Lauren Sherman
I'm a big fan of yours, all around your newsletter, and you're just like you as a human being. So I appreciate you being here. So before we get started on All Things Met Gala, I. I'm just kidding. It's so funny. I'm getting like, did Kim Kardashian come in yet? I guess she must have. I haven't seen it because I've been.
- [07:19]
Bonnie Morrison
Watching the coverage for the last three hours, and it really is. I mean, I'm. I'm. I mean, I suppose it's just people have to be grateful and just, you know, figure that it's just nice to be invited but it is. And I obviously knew this, you know, when I worked at kcd, KCD had not yet started or we. I had not been giving the full Met gala support that they do now. Obviously, when I worked there, I worked at KCD from 2026 to 2028 or 2006 to 2008.
- [07:47]
Lauren Sherman
You know, so funny. My first memory of you is. Is it possible is the Brian Reyes show. And he. KCD is the PR firm that many of the people listening will know about, but is like a big powerhouse PR firm that does a lot of events. And I remember seeing you at his.
- [08:05]
Bonnie Morrison
Show, probably racing down a Runway wearing a headset, but which I did for many years. But I. So I. What was I saying when we. But I obviously knew. And, you know, you knew that. I mean, they got it down to a science, the way that they stagger arrivals. But it has been very interesting to see, you know, sort of the ascending, you know, from sort of a, you know, sort of. I don't want to call anyone, you know, C or D list, but people that I. And I am not at all as plugged into pop culture as I once was. But to see people who I literally have never heard of before to then steadily, it's like, okay, there we've got some big wattage and there we've got some big wattage. And this person's here and this person's here. A solo. And this person's. And this person is clearly, you know, walking alongside this other person. And that person must be the person who dressed them. And so to really watch this, you know, this. This. The ramping up from about, you know, when I started watching at 6:00. And then of course, you know, the people that I follow who are, you know, all of their prep to. To really getting to. To wondering if there were certain people who are going to appear or not appear. So that. That has been a lot of anticipation built up.
- [09:11]
Lauren Sherman
Well, I am really looking forward to talking about it with you all. And I just want to say with you, Bonnie and everyone who's listening, you're. You're with us in spirit. The one thing I will say. And then we really should talk about these other two things really quickly. But I just want to say to everybody who does red carpet coverage, you all really need to get faster with your. Your outfit credits. Like I am on. I'm not even gonna say. First of all, Vogue in and of itself, most of them don't have outfit credits next to the name of what someone's wearing of stuff That I already know specifically, like, Miley Cyrus is wearing a Lia. Everyone knows that none of these outlets have it on there. People wanna know what it is. Alana Fishman, who works at Page Six Style, and Hillary Kerr, who is the chief content officer of a bunch of different brands, including who, what, where are excellent at this. And I suggest you all follow them during the red carpet evening. But I think, like, if you are doing red carpet coverage and you're doing best dressed, you need to have the outfit credits. That needs to be your main job for the evening. And I'm very frustrated this year.
- [10:20]
Bonnie Morrison
I totally agree with you because knowing what people. I mean, this is. It's not. This is not, you know, the sort of pre Uma in wearing Prada at the Oscars moment. Like, we've been doing this for a long time. So my understanding is that people, as a pr you would scramble to blast out to every single person what people were wearing.
- [10:39]
Lauren Sherman
The point being, like, I need to know who these people are wearing. Just do your. This is your job. Okay, so really quickly, before we get to Met Gala, there are two things I wanted to talk to you talk to you about. One was, are you familiar with the company online ceramics?
- [10:56]
Bonnie Morrison
Only because I saw this. Was it you or was it Max Stein who posted. Who posted about this? I. I saw.
- [11:04]
Lauren Sherman
Might have been Max Stein, but it was also me. I did a piece about this. Oh, yes. I posted about. Over the weekend because I was like, hoping someone would explain to me what happened. And I. Luckily there was a lawsuit. Well, not a lawsuit, but there was a bankruptcy filing. So I was able to see what the accusations were from the two parties involved. And then after I published my story with all the information, someone followed up close to the situation and was like, that is all. Exactly what happened. I don't know. I'm only getting one side of the story, but basically. So this brand and it's not the way I described it, is meaningful merch. So it was like these two young kids in 2016. And if you want to know more about online ceramics, those of you who do, I hope you're not offended by my lack of knowledge. Everyone. Nomi Fry wrote about them, I think, in 2018, and she did a very good job at like, explaining why, like, their place in the culture and why people are interested in them. But in the era of merch becoming like, post Kanye and post Bieber Jesus merch, that kind of stuff, this brand sort of came out of Los Angeles, the east side of Los Angeles, and it was very elevated Merch that was for Dead and Company, or the Dead or whatever it's called in this iteration. And they like developed a really big following in the menswear scene. Like, if you read Blackbird Spy Plane, you used to wear online ceramics, I would assume you don't anymore because you've moved, moved on. But it was these two young guys and they were like, very earnest and it became this really big thing. And then in the middle of last year, Sam Heine, gq, wrote this like, very romantic piece about them breaking up and not romantic, they weren't a romantic couple. But like, the piece was romantic about how important online ceramics, this merch company, they're very like a 24 coded. Like, I don't know if Kaitlyn Phillips was ever their publicist, but probably like, it's that kind of thing. And he wrote this thing and they did a book and it was like they broke up. So the last week I got someone messaged me, I think on Saturday, and they were like, for a long time reader, first time caller or whatever, I. It was very cute. But they were like, did you see that there was a bankruptcy filing in February? Online ceramics filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy, which is liquidation. And this person was like, you should also, and said, I tried to get merch from them. And for the last Dead Sphere show, which I definitely did not attend. I don't know about you, but those people were at the Sphere for a long time. And there were a lot. I think Nomi Fry once again wrote about it. And they never sent the merch. But the store is still operating. So I look into it. I send it to Eric Gardner, who is our legal correspondent, and he's like, I said, I'm confused because they filed for Chapter seven, they never liquidated. The website's up and running still. And then they filed again. And then that was dismissed. So Eric analyzes this document. He's like, actually, it looks like the two co founders are in a big fight. Turns out that Elijah Funk, the one of the co founders, is accusing Alex Rock Ross, Alex with an I saying that he used the money. Like he paid himself, essentially. And again, this is all alleged. I don't know the actual information. It's. It's just in the. I'm just reading from this document. I. That's. I don't have any other information other than what the document says. And it's saying that instead of paying their vendors, including Dove Charney, Los Angeles Apparel, because they use those blanks, and instead of like all these other companies, they and paying their Employees allegedly took the money himself. So something happened between that time and, and March 11th or whatever that they were able to. Or March 15th. They haven't had to go out of business. And then they filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy to. They, they filed a motion to move it from chapter 7 to chapter 11. The motion was a. Was denied. Nothing has happened. But in the meantime, and no one knew the website still up and running, I think there were people who were having issues getting product. It must have put someone down a, a rabbit hole. And they found this filing, this bankruptcy filing.
- [16:14]
Bonnie Morrison
So they went full spotlight. Yes.
- [16:18]
Lauren Sherman
So all weekend on Accent on Boy Reddit, as one of my editors was like, what's boy Reddit? I was like, it's a joke, but it's just like, you know, like they're in the how long gone subreddit talking about and they're like, blah, blah, blah, and they're saying all this stuff. But it's just, it's fascinating to me because as you know, and so I did a little item on this. I, I reached out to both of these guys and reached out to one of their lawyers. I, all the people I could find, no one responded to me. I gave them, I think I gave them at least 24 hours, if not 48. Like, if I gave them a good amount of time. No one responded to my queries. My question for you is like, the interesting thing to me about this is everybody's talking about like this brand being over, merch being dead. And I don't see it that way at all. This is just like, how often does this happen in fashion? This happens like every other week in fashion, right? Like two co founders get mad at each other and have this crazy thing happen behind the scenes. And we just usually don't find out about it.
- [17:18]
Bonnie Morrison
It. Well, it's. Yes, we usually don't find out about it. Although, you know, I mean, it's, it's. So if you really, if you in, in the, in a, in a, in a fit of peak decide that you want to burn someone, it is not that difficult because you, all you need to do is sort of get it. It's not even getting into the right hands. It's just circulating it to enough hands that it becomes that, that something, you know, your, your personal problems can, quote, unquote, go viral. I think it's, you know, and something that, that, you know, we were taught in my generation, Generation X, not that we always abided by this, but, you know, like, maybe I think that, you know, by and large, I feel like people my age are, are quite averse to have. Having any of your disputes appear in the press. That's what you want to avoid at all costs. And people, I think that, you know, there's a, there's a younger generation that doesn't feel that way. But I also think, I mean, and not to, not to, to, to keep harping on the age thing, but I also, you know, the, the, you know, as everyone's been talking about this sort of Gen X apocalypse we did or, you know, work apocalypse, we did work for other people. So, you know, working with difficult people and figuring out how to work towards de escalation. I mean, look, embezzlement is embezzlement. Alleged embezzlement is embezzlement. And you know, dipping into the company coffers to. By whatever is, you know, that, that sort that has always existed and it will continue to exist. But I think, you know, a lot of the stuff that I see as, you know, this idea and I've heard, you know, many younger people say, oh, well, you know, I want to be my own boss and I'm really entrepreneurial and you know, I have a lot of ideas and I want to be a founder and I want to be a creative director and I want to be, I think, you know, a lot of this, There's a lot of stuff that you learn from working with other people, working for other people that, that helps you be better at sort of picking the people that you do want to go into business with in maintaining better boundaries and also understanding that, you know, I would think it's great to have a business that's successful where all of a sudden you feel like you're minting money. But money is what the root of all evil because it causes so many problems between people, you know, So I think that has, that has to have something to do with it. Right? It's experience, for sure.
- [19:33]
Lauren Sherman
You're so wise, Bonnie. And best of luck to Elijah and Alex. I hope they work it out. They seem like sweet boys. I just, I feel bad for them. So the other really quick thing I wanted to mention to you was, and before we, we started recording, I brought this up and you did not know, which is the, the key. You had not heard about this, which is the key to me, which is that. So Last week on April 29, this person named Patrick Cooper, accused in New York, filed a lawsuit against. Against Ricardo Tisci, accusing the former Givenchy and Burberry designer of drugging and sexually assaulting him. I did not hear the piece There was a piece on April 30 that ran in the independent British newspaper that does a lot of reporting. I think it's probably like a mid market newspaper. If you're gonna, if you're gonna say that you. Yes, you agree, good. So then I didn't hear anything about it. I didn't get any texts. Ricardo Tisci has been someone that has come up in a lot of conversations I've had recently because he wiped his social media about right after the day before Demna was announced at Gucci. And so people were like, is he going to Balenciaga? They have a big menswear business, he would be good at it. Blah, blah, blah. He came, he's been coming up a lot also because at one point he was in the running for Versace years ago and it didn't end up happening. And he's always in the mix. Like he's hugely talented designer. He's a very good couture designer, great menswear designer. And so he is someone who's been like top of mind to me. No one messaged me, no one said anything. The story runs in the New York Times on Friday or Saturday and somehow it surfaces in my Instagram. I don't get an alert, I don't get any information. I have all these Google alerts. Nothing comes up. I go to parties on Saturday. Forget to mention I knew I would write about it on Monday. And my idea was sort of looking at like, what are his business prospects now that this has happened? Regardless of, of the outcome, regardless. And I should say that Tishi's a representative for. Tishi sent me a statement saying that he, you know, roundly denies these claims and he will fight to prove his innocence, that, that type of thing. And so he is saying this is completely not true. But even if he says that like when it comes to sexual assault accusations and it also he. All this stuff like the. I, I already started to formulate what I would write about for, for Monday and started thinking about it in the context of this Nike collaboration that he's been doing and he has set to have more come out. And then I was out on. I went to a party on Sunday night and I asked one, I remembered to ask one person and this person was like, oh yeah, I saw that. Guess he's not doing the Nike collaboration and just like didn't care. Like it. Not that whatever. Like, I don't, it's not. No judgment on anyone. To me, the interesting thing was that, like, it, it's just we've Been through this so much that it. No one. Nothing surprises anyone. And also the sort of seriousness of the accusations and the allegations and what. What could happen to his life even if he didn't do anything. Like, is. Is kind of crazy that it just like none of us as a society seem to care about this stuff anymore.
- [23:11]
Bonnie Morrison
These are the things that. That I think, you know, we. We've all spent a lot of time thinking about, especially in, you know, fashion used to be so different. Where, you know, there used to be so even. Even fashion, where I think, you know, a lot, sort of a lot more freewheeling in terms of kind of sex, drugs and rock and roll. And, you know, I think that, you know, the. Like we were talking about. I think, you know, since 2020, I think fashion has really felt the need to really respond to these things. But I think they are hard to keep up with. I think even without a sort of a personal investment in someone's talent, like you say, or even know. You know, knowing people personally, I think that rush to judgment. I think if anything, I think sort of as. As people trying to metabolize this information. I think we all just kind of wait and see. And I think making no judgment about Ricardo's situation, but just because everybody. It puts us in this strange place, right? And everyone sort of thinks, well, you know, maybe if we. Because we've seen what happens when people jump in and defend someone. That's not the person that I know, a person that I know would never do that, or this person, you know, defending people's character that blows up in your face, right? And factually, we don't, you know, just because someone is a good friend to us and we. I mean, this is something that we really know about fashion. Just because someone is a good friend to you or a good friend to your face doesn't mean that they can be counted. That they can be relied upon to be a good person everywhere. And that's human nature, I think. But I, you know, I think we have. Definitely, you're right. I think we've moved to this place of everyone just kind of. It's different for, you know, for people who have a. Who have a contractual relationship with someone. But I think for everyone else, it's just sort of like, well, let's just see how it plays out. Because I think that constant reaction. I think, you know, in. In, you know, we got into that.
- [25:10]
Lauren Sherman
That.
- [25:10]
Bonnie Morrison
That cycle of reacting and canceling people and the. The notes, apologies, and then that's not good enough. And then I'm Doing the work. And I'm. I mean, it's exhausting. It's really exhausting. And I don't think we have good mechanisms for understanding how. How to do deal with all this. But I think, you know, and then on the other hand, I think that there, you know, there. There are certainly, you know, situations where there were, you know, there are people with patterns of behavior, not usually with sexual assault, but I think that, you know, when we look at people who. In fashion, who are sort of emotionally abusive. Yeah. And. But I think when it. And. And I think that there, There tends to be more of a reaction there where it's like, oh, well, that person had it coming because we knew that they abused. They abused their, you know, the expense policy, or they abused their assistance or they abused their. But I think, you know, when it comes to private things and personal things and things that are not necessarily happening during work hours, that doesn't validate them, it doesn't excuse them. But things that are happening that. Where the rest of us cannot really evaluate or know what is really happening, I think people are learning to that. The best course is just to stay out of it and let the people who are investigating those things determine, you know, determine what the truth is.
- [26:25]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. Have you seen John Proctor as the villain?
- [26:29]
Bonnie Morrison
No.
- [26:29]
Lauren Sherman
It's a play that's on Broadway right now. It's really good. And it's. It takes place in high school in Georgia in 2018, in the middle of MeToo. And it's just an interesting. It's. It's related to this in some ways, and I. I recommend everyone go see it. I saw it this weekend. The other play I went to see this weekend, I cannot recommend to anyone.
- [26:57]
Bonnie Morrison
Oh, my goodness.
- [26:59]
Lauren Sherman
It is another one. I don't want to be mean.
- [27:02]
Bonnie Morrison
It was. It was.
- [27:03]
Lauren Sherman
It was tough for me.
- [27:04]
Bonnie Morrison
My.
- [27:05]
Lauren Sherman
I'm not really a theatrical person, and it was too theatrical.
- [27:08]
Bonnie Morrison
I never go see music. Nothing worse. There's nothing more uncomfortable than a bad play, especially if someone, you know is in it. Never go to a friend's play.
- [27:16]
Lauren Sherman
I don't. I didn't, thankfully. Well, I actually do. I am friends with some actors. Not la, but I don't think any of them are going to be in place. I. I did go see. I mean, Tavi Gevinson is not my friend, but I know her. I did go see her, and this is our youth, and that was awesome.
- [27:33]
Bonnie Morrison
Well, that I think is different because it's like there was a reason to go and there was Kenny Lonergan, right?
- [27:39]
Lauren Sherman
Yes. Yeah, that Exactly. This is like these are. I I can go see a Kenneth Loner play every single night. I cannot what I saw on Sunday and let me just say I'm not gonna say what it was because I just feel bad. This person like is the only my hints are is the only person in the play and plays like seven different characters and it is looked exhausting. And I they deserve some sort of award. And they also were at the Met Gala.
- [28:06]
Bonnie Morrison
So it is a crushing experience. I like a bad movie. I even like a bad novel. Sometimes a bad play is as bad as it gets. It is as bad as it gets. You just, I mean, you just want to disappear in the hole into a hole in the floor.
- [28:19]
Lauren Sherman
I agree. Okay.
- [28:20]
Bonnie Morrison
My heart is with you.
- [28:22]
Lauren Sherman
So, Bonnie, thank you for for shedding light on these two very serious topics. Again, everyone from the the first thing online Ceramics did not respond to requests for comments and Ricardo Tisci denies any wrongdoing across the board. So we will be following all of.
- [28:46]
Bonnie Morrison
Just got a new puppy or kitten. Congrats. But also, yikes. Between crates, beds, toys, treats, and those first few vet visits, you've probably already dropped a small fortune. Which is where Lemonade pet insurance comes in. It helps cover vet costs so you can focus on what's best for your new pet. The coverage is customizable, sign up is quick and easy, and your claims are handled in as little as 3 seconds. Lemonade Lemonade offers a package specifically for puppies and kittens. Get a'llemonade.com pet your future self will thank you. Your pet won't. They don't know what insurance is. I'm Emma Grade, and I've spent the.
- [29:22]
Lauren Sherman
Last 20 years building, running and investing.
- [29:25]
Bonnie Morrison
In some incredible businesses.
- [29:27]
Lauren Sherman
The more success I've had, the more people started coming to me with questions. How do you start a business? How do you raise money? How do I bounce back from failure? On my new podcast, Aspire with Emma Greed, I'll be answering these questions and more through weekly conversations with the smartest minds out there. Listen to and follow Aspire with Emma.
- [29:46]
Bonnie Morrison
Greed an Odyssey podcast.
- [29:47]
Lauren Sherman
Available now wherever you get your podcasts now. Met Gala let's talk about your piece today because I went to the preview this morning and I was sort of taken aback. Can you talk a little bit about what this year's theme is and also your relationship to the Met Gala? Because you've had a very long, rich career in the fashion industry, including you were an editor at Vogue. Men's Vogue in particular. Shout out to who was the Editor was Jay Fielden the editor.
- [30:23]
Bonnie Morrison
Jay Field was the editor. If Men's Vogue were still around, I'm sure that we'd be dandying it up all along Fifth Avenue.
- [30:31]
Lauren Sherman
We would indeed. And you've worked on different comms projects for years. You've worked at big brands like Coach, but you worked at KCD and PR Consulting, and you know everybody. And everybody knows you. And I always say, when I was 28 years old, I had lunch, breakfast with you at the Mercer, and you were like, don't wake up when you're 35 and only have friends who work in fashion. And I listened to you.
- [30:54]
Bonnie Morrison
Yes, yes, yes, yes. And although, you know, you now. Well, now you rule fashion, so. No, please. No, it's true. I think it's no fashion. Fashion has been good to me, but fashion, I think, well, and I think it's sort of a good segue.
- [31:08]
Lauren Sherman
Right?
- [31:08]
Bonnie Morrison
I mean, I think. And I. And I really want to be. I want to be respectful of it was. So let me back up, you know, seeing. So the. The theme of the Met Ball is. Is. Is. It's called Super Fine, I think, and it's, you know, sort of fashioning the black dandy and the idea of the black dandy and dandyism and, you know, this. Which is kind of a refraction of sort of Western and, you know, and in some ways, sort of, I guess, colonial and kind of antebellum identified dress and kind of sartorial modes of sartorial dressing as interpreted by, I think it calls it the Atlantic, but by the. Interpreted by the African sort of Atlantic diaspora. And so, you know, I. I think, you know, we. We think of Dapper Dan and a lot of these, you know, sort of the reemergence of that has been, especially as we've seen, you know, the proliferation of, you know, either figures from music, a lot of figures from sports, and, you know, that idea of the. What is it? The. The. Not the stadium. What is it? The tunnel. The tunnel dressing. And this idea of the black. The black man as, you know, extremely stylish and really loving clothes and really creating swagger, you know, having this swagger and this, you know, this really dapper and really refined look and sort of what that means. And even though it has origins in tailoring and this Western tailoring, but has a totally different.
- [33:00]
Lauren Sherman
Has.
- [33:00]
Bonnie Morrison
Has a different relevance. Talking about is, I think their words, not mine, sort of as an act of. An act of resistance, you know, a way of expressing sexuality, not just sort of heterosexual, sort of that Black that. That very contested black male sexuality, but also a, you know, a more fluid sexuality and. And sort of a gay and sort of gay identity. So I have not seen the show. You've seen the show, but I think, you know, to your point, I know I've talked a lot here, but to your point of not having friends in fashion, what I saw in thinking about this and as I was writing the piece over the weekend and thinking about this, I. All of a sudden people have equated dandyism and the Black dandy and the avatar of the Black Dandy with Andre Leon Talley. And so that was really interesting because that was nothing I saw was that made explicit. And I think that Andre is such interesting character, both as, you know, as representative or the culmination of this legacy of the Black Dandy and this history of the Black dandy, but also a very sad tale in many ways. And talking about the idea of. For black men sort of deprived of franchise, deprived of education, deprived of sort of social and professional mobility. It then becomes about the suit and the fur and, you know, we see in the 70s and we see, you know, this. This sort of like, you know, I hope this doesn't insult anybody, but sort of, sort of the pimp style and the pimp, you know, that was really exaggerated in these, you know, these kind of blaxploitation films. But, you know, there's a lot of style there and a lot of incredible costuming and incredible. And incredible references. I mean, set aside the exploitation of women, but. And sex workers. But, you know, that is, you know, the huge collars and the big hats and the walking sticks and the. Which you've seen a little bit referenced in a less exaggerated way on the carpet tonight. But I think, you know, I. I think the basis of that is, you know, you know, people who, you know, in sort of ghetto fabulousness and people who, you know, don't, you know, who. Who may live in housing projects or who may live in, you know, may live in ghettos. A word that we probably don't use that much anymore, though. Though, you know, it's apt. It just means kind of, you know, it means sort of a neighborhood where everyone's alike. They're not just. They're. They're not black. Ghettos are not the only ghettos that exist. But, you know, this idea that, you know, to put all of your. To put all of your resources because, you know, you. Because you. You can't own a home, you can't get a loan, you can't you know, you aren't. You're not living within. You're not able to access the American dream in the same way and to put everything into how you present yourself and to. And. And. And. And for that to be a source of pride, but at the same time, for that to be. There's something very empty about it. And as we know, I mean, and I don't want to speak at all in a disrespect. I knew Andre was not close to Andre, but I know many, many, many who are and who really feel that they, you know, they credit, you know, his investment and his belief in them, in really, you know, helping them. Helping them build their careers. People. People who. Whom I admire very much and who are friends of mine, people like Zach Bozen, people. My friend Teddy Tinson, who had, you know, incredibly close relationships with him. But. But I think at the end of the day, as I said in my piece, I think for anyone who didn't come to fashion sitting on an enormous fortune, I mean, there's obviously that image of everyone who works at Conde Nast and all the beau girls daddy sent me to Vogue who either come from fortunes or expecting to marry them or both. The idea to die or to come to the end of your life and have nothing to show for this life of opulence and luxury. And so I think, you know, that made the idea of the dandy. You know what the dandy, sort of the, you know, there's this. There's something incredibly celebratory about the dandy. But I think with Andre as the avatar, it just made me think about. There was also something, you know what. Because I've asked this question in my own life, in my own consumption, and, you know, when I was, like you said, young and at KCD and, you know, I got discounts on clothes where people would give me things, but I also spent a ton of money because I thought it was important to have expensive bags and to have expensive shoes. And now I look at the things that I bought and I think, a, it didn't last forever. And also, it just wasn't. It just. It's. It's, you know, you then, you know, go and you're cleaning out your closet so that you have more space. And then you think, you know, as we all know that now the resale is such a big deal and like, you get it for. You sell these things for pennies on the dollar. Not, you know, sometimes not even. Sometimes not even pennies on the dollar, you know, so I think it's I think it's a. And I don't think that's probably. That's probably isn't reflected in the show. That probably isn't reflected in, you know, as we see on the red carpet, we see, you know, we see sports figures who, you know, that's a very short shelf life of that, of that, of that career. And, you know, you can make a lot of money, but, you know, it doesn't last forever. Or, you know, we think of. Of, you know, this, this. This decadence and this consumption that is. That is embodied by a lot of these lifestyles. And I think especially, you know, in a time when we, when everyone is really talking about money and we're talking about. Are we on the brink of a recession? And we're talking about, you know, how do we look at how we. The footprint, the. The footprint that we occupy and also the legacy that we leave. I think it's a really. I think there, there. I think there's a lot of really interesting narratives that exist around this show and the ideas that are presented in this show that I am kind of interested in examining and knowing what other people think about.
- [38:50]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, I think the show doesn't go where you want it to go. And I have felt. Andrew mentioned Andre in his. Andrew Bolton, the chief curator, who. Andrew Bolton mentioned Andre when he was talking about the exhibition which he co curated with this Barnard professor, Monica Miller, who wrote the book.
- [39:18]
Bonnie Morrison
Who wrote the book in a 2009 book about Sebastian. It's called.
- [39:22]
Lauren Sherman
Yes, exactly.
- [39:23]
Bonnie Morrison
Which I think is a fantastic title, but I can see why the Met didn't use it.
- [39:26]
Lauren Sherman
No. Yes. And it was interesting because Andrew essentially said, I started thinking about this after Andre died and I didn't know him at all. I met him a couple of times. Like, I went to events and met him and had some interactions with him. I will say, like, my personal interactions with him were stressful. Like, there were things like he was. There were times, you know, this was not a person who lived an easy life at the end of his life. And I thought about, like, oh, what if he was here and he was able to see how much, like, he mattered to culture? And I, I. He probably knew a little bit and was told that sometimes, but I think felt like, oh, man, that's kind. It's kind of a bummer that this is happening now.
- [40:22]
Bonnie Morrison
I think that's true. I also think that, you know, what is. And you've had enough exposure to you probably more than I. But, you know, we've had enough exposure to people in the news or these figures who. I think, who know that they're complicated. They're complicated. I think some people do a really good job of being conscious of what their legacy is, or at least what they project and what that means to people. And they do a very good job of, you know, making sure that all the corners are squared so that, you know, people, you know, they give the fans what they want, I think. But when you. When you get, you know, familiar. I don't want to say familiarity breeds contempt, but I think that getting to know anyone, especially people who have either achieved a lot or people who are brilliant or people. They can be a handful. And so I think, you know, I think, like you said, I think that there's. It was not easy at the end of his life, but I think that Andre was. I think he was incredibly. I think he was a really complicated character. And so I think that. I mean, and as we know. And I quoted Vanessa Friedman in my article, who I think is really brilliant, but I think that she. When she was talking about Andre's final book, the Chiffon Trenches, which created. Which was a bestseller and got a lot of attention. And I got a lot of attention because he dished and I think. And dishes maybe isn't even the right word. I think that he. It seems like there was a bit of, you know, it's interesting in the foreword to that book, he sort of talks about. He really talks about blackness and he talks about Beyonce's cover. Beyonce's last cover, the one, I think, where she's hanging. I can't remember what year it is, but the, you know, where she's. You know, it's sort of natural light and, you know, it's very little artifice and talks about sort of the significance of the clothing line and, you know, the sort of the black woman as the washerwoman. And now she's Beyonce, you know, sort of representing. As the most famous celebrity in the world. And. And what a moment that was. And I think that, you know, and I mean, Andre was always very, you know, very, very honest about his. His background. But I think, you know, this was probably, you know, a moment of real retrospection and introspection for him. And that's how he sort of leads into the Siobhan Trenches. But, you know, I think that was also one of the reasons that that book got as much attention as it did, is that he was, you know, he. He. I think he talked quite openly about his. His dissatisfaction with people and. And the people who had let him down or. And I think that he was not speaking about. He was not. He was not viewing his, you know, all of his. His life experience and perhaps. Perhaps the decisions that he'd made, but also the things that had happened to him were been done to him as Rosally, as. As one. As we would hope for the end of our lives. I think it had curdled a little bit. Maybe I don't know what his experience was at the very end of his life. I think my hope is that when I come to the very end of my life, I just am able to let it all go and forgive everybody. And maybe that was the case for him. But I think in those sort of penultimate. That sort of penultimate chapter, it was not that.
- [43:45]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, it's interesting now, thinking back, we should move on to the red carpet. I think this. This gives people something to think about, that maybe in some of the other coverage they haven't been considering. And everyone who has a platform. You should invite Bonnie to come talk to you about this because I think. I think you have a lot of interesting things to say. But I'm just remembering now when he died, because it ran on airmail. It was published first on airmail, and the comms person at the time at airmail messaged me. And then I talked to Diane von Furstenberg because I think she was with him late, and I messaged her. And she's just so open and helpful with stuff like that. And she was with him. But it is just a person who was so important to fashion and culture. And I think. I mean, I'm curious. I can't wait to hear when you see the exhibit, what you think. I mean, I think the biggest feat is the fact that Andrew and Monica Miller did it together. And, you know, most of these exhibitions, it's a lot of work. I'm not trying to undermine what Andrew Bolton does. I think he's really brilliant and kind and tries very hard. But there's more depth to this than usual because of the fact that you had like a very. A person who's like a scholar on this particular thing and then also them working together. It's just like two is better than one always and. Or almost always.
- [45:25]
Bonnie Morrison
Doesn't it also illustrate something that I think that we don't do enough of and that I think has been one of the major. If. I mean, I don't want to put too fine a point on it, but I think if anything has. Has Wear, Conde Nasten Vogue when, you know, when. When they were encountering sort of all of their racial reckoning. I mean, I hate to. It sounds like such a cliche at this point, you know, in 2020 and also 2021 and also 2020, you know, as this was all going on, I mean, I think that fashion. I don't, I haven't worked in other industries, so I don't know other industries. I do know fashion and, and, and also, you know, in some ways I was so desensitized to it, both from how I grew up and also because I just aspired to work in fashion forever. And I had been so kind of fash and so indoctrinated and like, oh, of course, like, of course this is, you know, sort of being, you know, surrounded by all these sort of long legged, you know, heiresses with shiny blonde hair and thinking, oh, of course, like, of course that's the person who should be, you know, you know, working in that job. And of course that's. This is what someone who, you know, has their house photograph for the magazine looks like. And of course this is, you know, it like didn't even occur to me. I mean, I sometimes describe myself as, you know, not all the time, but there have been moments where I. If this. We have a child, so this reference will make sense to you, but sometimes feel like, you know, babe, who, like the pig who doesn't know that she can't, that she can't, you know, corral sheep, where it's like, oh, well, of course I'm the same as all these people. And it's like, well, you're not. I mean, and in some ways I am and in some ways I'm not. And in some ways perhaps I'm better. But, you know, I always think that I'm, you know, one of these people and I'm not. And, or that's not how always how I was viewed. And it didn't occur to me. It's like, whoa, you know, oh. Like that someone who, you know, looked like they had, you know, come from the country club was more likely to, you know, for image was more likely not. Not that anyone ever said that to me, but that they were more likely to sort of get the job or to, you know, be assigned the thing or to be than I was. And there was kind of nothing I could do about that. But it all. But I never felt, I never went immediately to thinking like, oh, are these people racist? I mean, I just never did or not even racist, but did they have blind spots?
- [47:34]
Lauren Sherman
Thoughts?
- [47:35]
Bonnie Morrison
It didn't occur to me. And because I couldn't prove It, I was sort of, you know, I would just sort of move on. And then when all of a sudden all this stuff happened in 2020, it was like, oh, wait, wait a second, like, have I been, have I been affected by, by people's sort of narrow mindedness or people's, you know, or, you know, sort of out and out bigotry or people's sort of lack of understanding that we should have like a more sort of equitable environment? In any event, I think, you know, to your point, I think what it says is, you know, we, we really do benefit from this. You know, we help each other and we point out sensitivities, we point out liabilities. We can say that's actually not how you would do that or that's not how that would. It's almost like having a translator and it's like, you know, so, you know, there's a difference between sort of the, you know, the written language or the, or the book language, the book learned language and the colloquial language. And how do you find that and how do you find what the, what sort of dialect or register is the most appropriate? And when we all have people who are exactly like us, and we know this in our personal lives, and we certainly know it in our work lives, then there can be problems because even the most well meaning people who think they're doing the right thing because they've done the research, because they don't necessarily know how it is going to play with all the different environments. And I'm not thinking of, you know, you think of. I mean, I thought the flap about, and Vogue has, has. And I think some of the flaps that Vogue has endured are maybe not necessarily fair. Kamala in, you know, Kamala in converse. I didn't, I didn't pick that one up. You know, LeBron with, you know, with Giselle, was it Giselle? And you know, people thinking King Kong. I don't know if I would have picked that up, but it's like, you know, those converse, but you know that there was no one who was, who was there having those conversations or saying, I'm not going to, I'm not so sure about that. Like, I just want, I just want to flag for you guys that this could be perceived this way. They're going to make the decision that they're going to make. But having people work together who come from really, really different backgrounds and then figuring out how they, how they can enhance each other's knowledge is, is, is the best, is the best course of action in Almost any endeavor. And that's why I think, you know, Vogue, obviously, I mean, no magazine has the. Has the cultural influence that it once had, but I think on balance, they probably are better work environments and they're probably better products. It's just unfortunate that they're not. They're not supported by, you know, as much advertising or as much. Or as many eyes, but I think that they are. But, you know, I think that that has been. That has been beneficial to know you've got to bring someone in. Because if. If this show had ever been mounted and it never would have been, I don't think it ever would have been, not even 10 years ago, then I guarantee you that Andrew, no disrespect to Andrew, and I don't know if Andrew was at Harold Cotta before any. It doesn't matter who is, but the likelihood that someone would have said, we're going to bring someone in who has knowledge in this, and we probably need to. If for optics only, we need to bring in someone who. Who. This is their culture, and we're better at that now than we used to be. I'll say. And I'll say. And we can use this as a segue to. And this is going to sound really impertinent, but as a segue to the matte red carpet. You know, I saw a lot of white dinner jackets on the red carpet. And I, as a black woman, thought a lot of white dinner jacks. The white dinner jacket looks like a waiter at a country club to me. I love a white dinner jacket. I love a white dinner jacket. In the summertime, white dinner jacket's totally appropriate for a tuxedo jacket, especially in warm climates. This is all stuff that I happen to know. If you go to Palm beach, you're gonna see a lot of white dinner jackets. If you go to. But it's like, you know, the first kind of round of people that I saw walking into the red carpets, and it's like, who were not black. And it's like, oh, you like, is. I mean, I mean, it's sort of a rude joke, right? That, like, oh, I'm, you know, I'm dressed like a man servant.
- [51:35]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [51:35]
Bonnie Morrison
So it's, you know, these are. These are things like if. If someone said to me, bonnie, what do you think I should wear to the mat? I think I would say, I'm not sure about that. I'm. I'm not. I'm not sure about something that's going to make you look like if you're. If you're in tribute to black men. I'm not sure if you should look like something where you might be mistaken for a waiter. That's what I would say. Maybe not my answer. Maybe is not the right answer. But it's like, like it was something. It's something that I would introduce, at least for consideration.
- [52:03]
Lauren Sherman
It's interesting because the great Jessica Joffe, who is fabulous to follow on social media when she's doing red carpet commentary, referred to Sabrina Carpenter's look, which is like a brownish maroon with like a.
- [52:25]
Bonnie Morrison
Like a hot pant. Like a jacket with a hot pant.
- [52:27]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. Which is as, as a, as a. Looking like it was a uniform from Panera Bread.
- [52:35]
Bonnie Morrison
Totally.
- [52:36]
Lauren Sherman
Which is truly hilarious. Maybe less, less historical context, but exactly. Ladies, you'll end up shopping for your guys deodorant.
- [52:50]
Bonnie Morrison
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Lauren Sherman
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- [52:56]
Bonnie Morrison
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Lauren Sherman
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Bonnie Morrison
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- [53:51]
Lauren Sherman
So, overall, what did you think?
- [53:55]
Bonnie Morrison
So the only thing that I do want to say about the. The last thing that I want to say about the. And again, I haven't been. And, and, and I did and I, and I sort of said that in my newsletter today. It's just that like I. I'm going to reserve judgment. The one thing that I. The. The one miss or the one thing that I hope that this. I hope, you know, if we sort of look at learnings from this particular. I hope this is a success and I hope that it. It inspires really interesting conversations and I hope that it magnetizes a whole new. A whole different group of people and young men and young people who, you know, connect with something that, you know, it's maybe aren't going to be as excited about something that is referencing, you know, from previous themes where you're gonna see a lot of costumes or you're gonna see a lot of, you know, apparel from like 17th century France, which is maybe not as interesting to kids from Harlem or kids from, you know, Astoria, Queens, or kids from, you know, Red Hook or wherever. You know, it doesn't have to just be just, you know, black and brown kids. It should be everybody. But I think, which is the beautiful part of New York. But I think the one thing is I, you know, for a May show, for the, for the gala show, to have some, you know, sort of men's, like kind of sartorial dress. Yes. And haberdashery. And to have something that's so male focused. I hope that. I hope that it still magnetizes the crowds because I think people want. I think one of the reasons that, you know, obviously there's this huge red carpet event that supports it, but the May show is often about fantasy and it's about what people think of as fashion, you know, capital F fashion. And you see, I mean, I think McQueen is still. Is still the record breaking show because that, you know, those clothes particularly because those clothes, most, many of those clothes, most of those clothes never went to production. And because Lee was such an incredible. I mean, I mean, I remember I work. I mean, I saw this clothes up close because I was working at KCD then. So I would be backstage and you'd see these incredible, incredible, incredible clothes. And, you know, I think, you know, to have something that maybe has these culturally significant but doesn't give you as much impact. I hope that doesn't. I hope the stewards of the Met, I hope that doesn't scare them away from something that has such a clear, like, clear identification with, you know, sort of with a group and with, with a particular group and perhaps draws in a particular group. And that it doesn't. It's not saying anything about the potential for, you know, giving space for these kinds of ideas.
- [56:33]
Lauren Sherman
I think this show is going to be huge. I really do. I really do.
- [56:38]
Bonnie Morrison
I'm glad, I'm glad to hear. I wish, you know, but I do wish there was obviously more women's fashion because that's what I.
- [56:44]
Lauren Sherman
Well, the other issue is look like I'm all for everybody wearing whatever they want to wear. I don't particularly, like I said this before, it's not that I only think Willa Bennett, who's now the editor in chief of Cosmo. Looks good in ties. I think women should wear whatever they want. I don't love most fashion looks. I would say. I don't like fashion looks on women or people wearing women's clothes that include ties.
- [57:16]
Bonnie Morrison
I'm gonna stop you, because whenever someone says. And this is a sentence construction that I use all the time, I'm all for means I'm not really for it.
- [57:26]
Lauren Sherman
I don't. I just don't like it. And I don't. The thing is, I'm not. It feels like a thing. And tonight sort of helped me understand why I'm.
- [57:37]
Bonnie Morrison
I'll say it so you don't have to. It's stupid. It never looks good.
- [57:40]
Lauren Sherman
It never looks good.
- [57:41]
Bonnie Morrison
I mean, I. I have to say. Zoe Buckman, the artist. Zoe Buckman. When I first met her, she was. Which was many years ago, she was wearing sort of a. I think it was like a Saint Laurent for women. Like a Saint Laurent suit and a white shirt and like a little. Sort of like a. Like a little, you know, bow tie. Like a. It's like a hair tie bow tie. Like, not a. Like, not a. Like a foreign hand tie, but, like. And she looked so fantastic, and she sort of had this short, perky hair, and she's got great style, and she's great looking, and, you know, had a heel, and she's, you know, and she's like, you know, he's got this sort of, like, kind of boyish sort of, you know, like, very slim build and sort of narrow shoulders. And it worked so well on her. And I was sitting with her husband at the time, and we were at this gala that my friend Pippa invited us to. And I was sitting here, husband. And I said, you know what? I said, your wife. And I just met him. And I said, and I just met them, and I said, your wife has fantastic style, and she looks as good as I've ever seen a woman look in a suit. And he was like, yeah, she's great. And so I think it worked, but it felt. It felt feminine, and it felt chic, and it felt. And it had a precedent of, you know, of sort of, how do we make this work for a woman? It wasn't. It wasn't a costume. And I think. I think women in, like, something that is. So I think you have to figure out a way of easing it up so that it has. That it still feels flattering. Because I have to say, you know, there are a lot of. A lot of people. It's it's funny, the women who went for. So, okay, so I'll. So the. The first thing that I'm gonna say is I understand that there was the directive that was given. It's like tailored to you. Which felt very. Didn't feel very vogue. It felt very. It felt like. It felt very sticky to me. Yeah, it. But, you know, tailored. Tailored to. It felt very like, you know, when. When Bloomingdale's even, they would do like a tie in with a movie and then they would do the windows. And it felt very.
- [59:31]
Lauren Sherman
That.
- [59:32]
Bonnie Morrison
And I was like, that doesn't feel vogue. Vogue usually feels. You know, they. It felt a bit dumbed down to me, but I understand people. It's. It's confusing, particularly because this is like all the complaints that I just registered about. You know, it's. It's, you know, where are the women in this? But I think it's really interesting because. So understanding the theme, I think the men who leaned more towards this really kind of flamboyant. Is it gay? Is it not gay? I don't know. Is it queer? Not queer? I don't know. It doesn't really matter. But the men who did that looked dynamite. And the woman who leaned more towards the really sort of like. Like polished. Like I'm gonna wear other than the kind of zoot suits, but a zoot suit, again, has that really. Has that. Has that. That verve. The. The women who leaned into the very kind of structured a lot of Tom Brown. Obviously, we know, you know, Tom's a genius. But there's. But I. I think they are the ones who looked the most foolish.
- [60:33]
Lauren Sherman
Yes.
- [60:33]
Bonnie Morrison
It's really interesting. Like, it was. It was really interesting that the men who. Who, you know, who. Who really. And I think for. For this. But the. The. So I'll also go and say the thing that I think it missed is that it became this very kooky, creative black tie. And I think if you are going to do black style, you have to have color. And I think that the people who miss out on doing color, by and large, blew it.
- [61:04]
Lauren Sherman
Yep.
- [61:04]
Bonnie Morrison
I think even Andrew Scott, who I think has, I mean, looks crazy. It's like a brown shirt and a red vest and a mint green suit. I mean, the colors. The color sense is. And like this weird, like, spectator shoe. I mean, the outfit is crazy, but it's like, you know what? He did it. He did it. He showed up. He showed up. He totally showed up. Patrick Schwarzenegger looked amazing. Like that yellow kind of surplus, like, tied shirt and that, like, and that crazy. Like everyone's got a wide leg pant today which is very 40s. And I think that so. And that feels, you know, that feels right. Sort of the 30s 40s, sort of Malcolm X like conced hair. I mean like that really worked. But there was not a normal. Except for. Can I also say. I know I'm hopping all around then. If you are wearing a normal tuxedo, just like a normal sort of suit of evening clothes. How many men talk to your tailor to get the pant length right so the pant breaks where it's supposed to break. There's so many.
- [62:05]
Lauren Sherman
No man's pants fit.
- [62:07]
Bonnie Morrison
No. So many men. You're just going to do a straight like flat front pleated pant. Doesn't make a difference to me. But don't look like you're wearing a rented tuxedo. That is so embarrassing. And I also have to say this one always drives me crazy. Like, like I got a little bit, you know, I'm sort of have been obsessed with clothes since I was little. So I sort of know like all of the rules that nobody pays attention to anymore. Like you know, you're not, you know you're supposed to wear a dress, watch, like a gold watch. You're not supposed to wear your like Rolex Submariner or whatever. If you're wearing evening clothes, fine. Nobody does that anymore. But people don't. Probably don't even wear watches. But the number of shoe men wearing tuxedos wearing the wrong shoe. I have seen. There are so many wrong shoes. I mean they might as well be wearing Doc Martens. Get a norm. Like I tell tuxedo pump. Get the right shoe.
- [63:02]
Lauren Sherman
You know who has the right shoes on tonight is Michael Kors.
- [63:05]
Bonnie Morrison
Of course he does. Michael looks fantastic. Michael looks fantastic. Trim, fantastic. I mean Michael looks amazing. I mean but look at Steve Schwarzman shoes. I think he's wearing a patent sneaker. It's. It blew my mind.
- [63:18]
Lauren Sherman
There's a football player that my colleague Peter Hamby was very excited about his look wearing sneakers. Let me look up his name. Joe Burrow. It's out of control. Okay, so really, really quickly I just want to say that Andrew Scott is, is wearing this Italian fashion label. I really like that. I've never pronounced it before and I think it's. It's G I U L I V A heritage.
- [63:44]
Bonnie Morrison
Julie. G I U. Yeah, I've seen heritage or.
- [63:49]
Lauren Sherman
I'm sorry everyone. I, I really respect you. He looks fab. I believe Patrick Schwarzenegger was wearing Vuitton I want to go through a couple specific looks, but first of all, let's just tell everybody you don't have to wear pinstripe. The thing that bothered me the most was that literally everybody who was, like, nervous about the theme wore pinstripe. And some of it looks great. A lot of it looked really bad in the same way. A lot of the ties didn't look right. And it's like, I just think, like, you have this opportunity to be on this red carpet, you are going to be seen by millions of people potentially. But also, like, you're invited to this incredible thing. Many of you are not paying for your ticket. Your ticket was thousands of dollars. Just put in the effort and like, think about it.
- [64:40]
Bonnie Morrison
Put in the effort. But right before I. Right before I got in with you, I was with. Talking to my friend Danny Hsieh, who was saying that he thinks the only thing. Because we were saying, is there a way to really mess it up? Is there a way to. To. To gaffe so badly that you're like. That you're canceled, given the fact that, you know, given all of it. And he said. And we decided we don't think there is. But he said, I think here to. Not to do nothing, to not go for it. You know, the. For the people who just were. Look, if you're a billionaire, if you're, you know, if you're Steve Schwarzman or you're. I. I probably don't want to see you in a zoot suit. I probably like you. You know, the I that I get, you know, over a certain age or of a certain, you know, if you. That. That makes sense to me, like, don't. There are certain people for whom it's silly to take a risk. But what Danny was saying, and I totally agree, he's like, if you. If you haven't taken a risk, you've lost. You've lost. You've blown it for something like this. And like, you really. Because it also, it's. It's a bit like when you go to a costume party and you're like, oh, a costume party? I'm just. I don't like wearing a costume. Like, I feel most comfortable. My own clothes. I'm gonna go in my own clothes. And then you show up and you have a worse time than you would have if you were just wearing something. If you just, you know, bought, you know, some rabbit ears and, you know, if you. If you just participated a little bit, you'll get a stick in the mud. Yeah. So I totally agree with You. I think. And. And again, I think, you know, even the sensitivity like you said, I'm sure there was some. Some sensitivity. You kind of couldn't get it wrong. I. I think that there are. I think people should have pushed the pinstripes. Yes. I think that that was too safe. And I think there's a lot of black. I'm surprised that there's so much black that Anna didn't give, because Anna, we were always tosh. Whenever, you know, when I worked on the other side, when I was on the PR side. Anna hates black. Anna won't shoot black. Anna, like, Anna loves that dress. Can you have your atelier. Make it in canary yellow?
- [66:31]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [66:31]
Bonnie Morrison
And it's like, oh, when do you need it? Oh, we need it in 36 hours. Okay, great. You know, we're. We'll. We'll fire up the. We'll, you know, we'll. We'll fire up the sewing machines in the lot.
- [66:41]
Lauren Sherman
So tell me. Give me, like, three of your favorites and why.
- [66:46]
Bonnie Morrison
I. Patrick Schwarzenegger. I just loved. I love the color. I love that, like, it just worked. Like, it isn't necessary. Like, it's kind of because it's. It's just. It's because it's out there and it's taking a risk. And he's such a handsome guy, and we were handsome. You can kind of get away with anything. I think he is very handsome.
- [67:02]
Lauren Sherman
Handsome.
- [67:02]
Bonnie Morrison
He's very handsome. He's very. I mean, he looks like a model, but I think I. I just loved that it was a. Because there was. Like I said, there was color, and the color was kind of off. You don't see men in canary yellow. You don't see any with this sort of maroon kind of ox blood. Like, it doesn't really make sense, but it's great. And I think it's. And you can. You can see a black guy wearing that. Like, you can. I mean, I. That's what I loved about it. I mean, it's sort of like he. Like, it's. It's the theme, but it's not the same. But it's not so. It's not so on the nose that it. That I think it really worked. And. And it's like you're having fun with. You're having fun with it, but not in a. But not in a way that is creating spectacle. It's in a way that is very fashion. Like you want to see fashion, like. And I think that sometimes these, you know, people wear these very elaborate. These, you know, very. That obviously there's artistry. You obviously have the virtuosity of both the creative director and the many, like, petite who are putting together these incredible, incredible gowns. But there's a little bit too much folly in it. It's not fun. It's clothes that are difficult to get up the stairs. You think, how are they going to eat in that? It feels like they're trying too hard. It feels like everybody. Other than creating a spectacle, it isn't giving you anything. So that's what I liked about him. I really liked Adrian Brody.
- [68:26]
Lauren Sherman
Oh, my God. I hated it.
- [68:29]
Bonnie Morrison
You hated it? I like.
- [68:30]
Lauren Sherman
He.
- [68:30]
Bonnie Morrison
Wearing.
- [68:31]
Lauren Sherman
I thought he looked insane. I was like, these two are.
- [68:33]
Bonnie Morrison
I didn't. I didn't think it was right for. I would have liked to. I would have liked to see, like, John David Washington and something like that. But I also think. I think it would have been interesting for. If he had played with color, if it had been, like, you know, like, an orange shirt and, like, a royal blue. Like, we need the Deion Sanders. Like, we need that. Like, we need that. We need the Andre 3000. Like, we need the. Like, it needs to be, like, punchy and you see fun, and they need to look like they're having fun. Not just like, I'm wearing sort of a newfangled tuxedo. So I liked. But. But I liked the lines of it. I thought it was really beautiful. I didn't. I don't think it worked. He wasn't the right person to wear it, but I did like that. Like, I can see.
- [69:15]
Lauren Sherman
You know what? When I look at it, I actually like the look. You're right.
- [69:18]
Bonnie Morrison
It is a good look.
- [69:19]
Lauren Sherman
I just, like, don't like it on him for some reason. But of course, I can't find out what he. What Brandy was wearing. Maybe Saint Laurent, because. Because no one did any credits except for who, what, where. Thank you, Hillary and team.
- [69:34]
Bonnie Morrison
Objectively, I liked it. I just didn't like it. For tonight. I have to say, Jeremy O. Harris looked amazing. Fantastic. It was cultural. It was smart. It was historical.
- [69:47]
Lauren Sherman
It was.
- [69:48]
Bonnie Morrison
I thought it was great. I thought it was absolutely great. I thought it looked fantastic. Marc Jacobs doing Cab Calloway I thought was really interesting. I didn't. You know, I don't love a cream suit. I thought the sort of conked hair was really interesting. I mean, he's cap. He's dressed like Cab Calloway, but that was really interesting. I thought. I loved Tyler Perry.
- [70:08]
Lauren Sherman
I thought Tyler Perry looked incredible.
- [70:11]
Bonnie Morrison
I have a complicated relationship with Tyler Perry. I'M probably one of the few people in fashion. Well, maybe not the few people in fashion, but I'm probably one of the few people. I'm one of the few people that. That people I know. Know who's seen just about every Tyler Perry movie. I've seen many of them in the theater. I have a very complicated relationship with them. If I were in. I often say, had I studied what I studied in college just 20 years later, I would have written all of my papers about. I studied modern culture and media. I would have written all my papers about. About Tyler Perry and his relationship to sort of women and black culture and a bunch of other things which would certainly not earn me any kudos from Tyler Perry. But I loved. This is where again, I mean, to go back to, like, you gotta have people who get it. Who get what. Who get what it's about, who get what the references are, who get what it. Who get even. Just reference. Like, I think people who did hats. Like, there are. There were ways to incorporate this. I thought it's like Tracee Ellis Ross and she did all those. Like those. Even though it was this weird, exaggerated suit. I mean, the hat is so important. People who did like a walking stick. Even though a walking stick is super weird and not practical, but they did, you know, they incorporated those elements that showed that you were able to. You were able to take enough of the details and enough that. That you actually. You wanted to have some interface with what this. With what this. This, this theme was.
- [71:43]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [71:43]
Bonnie Morrison
So I loved him. His was sort of like these kind of. Not ecclesiastical garments, because that's the wrong term. But it was like. I mean, it felt like church. It felt like sort of the.
- [71:52]
Lauren Sherman
The.
- [71:52]
Bonnie Morrison
The sort of the. I mean, he felt like a. I mean, it's probably his God complex, but it sort of felt like, like this is. He's a preacher. Like, he's up at the. He's up at the pulpit. Like, he's going to. He's going to lay hands on you.
- [72:04]
Lauren Sherman
He's going to save you.
- [72:05]
Bonnie Morrison
I loved that. I thought. And it was beautiful. You could see the work on it. I loved it. Jeff Goldblum, too. It's like he kind of looks like a dictator, but it's like you gotta. Like there's gotta be some panache. There's gotta. There's gotta be some. Like, if you're. If you're stepping on that red carpet and you're not doing something like, like people like. Like look at these. Like, look at the marching bands or look at the look at church. Look at church choirs. Look at. They're wearing shiny, they're wearing purple, they're wearing gold. They're wear like it's, it's. It's exuberant. It's, it's. It's joyful, it's. It's colorful, it's in your face. It doesn't necessarily have to match. It doesn't necessarily. And if you didn't do that, then I don't like. If you didn't show that you're having a little bit of fun. And because black culture is. Is fundamentally even that sort of the dandy and even, Even this sort of resistance of, of. Of being in dialogue with, you know, with the sort of hegemonic, like white culture and white forms of dress, it still has joy. If you think about the, you know, the people that we've seen, you know, through the last couple of decades who really are invested with. Often men who really are investing in their looks. Like I said, Deion Sanders Andre 3000 Andre, they do not take themselves seriously. And that is, I think, what's missing from the outfits, even though I can technically appreciate them. The ones that are just black and white or that are just, you know, that are. That are pinstripes or that are plaid or that are just. Or just tuxedos or some. Some kind of version of a tuxedo. You're not showing us the fun, you're not showing us the joy. You're not showing us the excitement. You're not showing us the swagger.
- [73:43]
Lauren Sherman
I, I agree. The thing about color is so important. I would say anyone who wore Oswald Boateng, which Colman Domingo had him a suit of his on at the preview and looked amazing. And then Colman Domingo wore black and white, but looked amazing and Valentino, like 15 different textures and colors. But yes, the Henry Golding, a person who I find extremely annoying generally, just as his like being looked amazing, he was wearing Oswald Boateng, a couple other.
- [74:14]
Bonnie Morrison
In sort of a. It was like a sort of mustard pinstripe.
- [74:17]
Lauren Sherman
Like anyone who showed up in Oswald Boateng looked. Oswald Boating also looked amazing. Like that was the br. That was the brand. If you were gonna wear something. I also thought, like, I went. I made a list. Like, I thought Demi Moore looked great in Tom Brown. I thought Edward Enfil looked amazing. I think Edward looked great.
- [74:36]
Bonnie Morrison
Edward. Because I think Edward was the one. Edward was the one who could pull as sort of like the preeminent black man in fashion. As an African, he. I think to do that really, really really proper, sort of like, was able to colonize that look. And he was gonna. And he was gonna own it, and he was gonna look the best in it. And he. Like that. That was. That was his look. That was his. His and his alone, I think. And he looks. And he looks fantastic.
- [75:02]
Lauren Sherman
He looks awesome. I said, Caleb Callum Turner, hot. Could literally wear whatever, but Dua Lipa in here, so hot. She did not look good. She. I don't know what's going on with her look.
- [75:14]
Bonnie Morrison
It's all these, like, what are these? What are these? Like, head to toe, blood. No matter how much work, no matter how many others, no matter how many sequins, no matter how many sheer panels, it's just not giving you. It's not giving you what you. You want, what you wanted to give.
- [75:27]
Lauren Sherman
Totally. I thought Jordan Castile and Charles Harvard Harbison. There's a big piece in the Times about that. Her dress. She looked gorgeous. Was wearing blue. Who else? Oh, Leon Bridges was wearing this. British designer. Leon Bridges looked amazing. Nicholas Daly. I was totally obsessed with it. Just an FYI, Adrien Brody is in fear of God. And I think the reason I didn't. Like, I literally wore the same exact outfit on. On Sunday. Like, exactly. There was very little different about my outfit on Sunday night.
- [76:00]
Bonnie Morrison
All your luck. No, I got it.
- [76:02]
Lauren Sherman
I totally get. You know, I thought. I thought asap. Rocky looked pretty good. I thought Tyler Richard.
- [76:08]
Bonnie Morrison
I didn't understand the outerwear on top. Like, I wish he had shocked the. Yeah. Jacket.
- [76:14]
Lauren Sherman
All right.
- [76:15]
Bonnie Morrison
Gabrielle and Dwayne looked amazing. Yeah. And they matched. They matched, which was great. And Swizz Beats and Alicia Keys. They looked bananas.
- [76:25]
Lauren Sherman
They look insane, but it was awesome.
- [76:27]
Bonnie Morrison
But you know what?
- [76:28]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [76:29]
Bonnie Morrison
Like, that's exactly. Like, if you're gonna, like, there. That really. There is like, as I. As I said before, like, the only failure is to not. Is just to do nothing. And if you. Especially if there's a coordination.
- [76:44]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [76:45]
Bonnie Morrison
And there's a. And it doesn't really make any sense. And you don't get it. And you're like, tell me about your. Like. And. And you're. And you don't care if you look. You're not trying to look. You know, it's. You're not trying to look. I mean, I think they probably loved how they looked, but they're not. But they're. They're giving you. They're giving you something, and they know they're giving you something. They're not trying to play it safe, and I love that. Speaking of which, I Also want Melody Hobson. I want Melody Hobson to be wearing the most expensive dress in the place. Like I always. I mean, I Like she's. I. I wanted something different from her. I wanted color from her. I wanted. I mean, I think she's so impressive. I wanted like, I wanted her to be wearing orange or I wanted her to be wearing. I don't know, like I. That wanted to. I wanted to. That's what I. I wanted like a real shining moment for her.
- [77:35]
Lauren Sherman
Cola Scola in who's. Maybe it's Escala. I don't know.
- [77:39]
Bonnie Morrison
I didn't understand the print.
- [77:41]
Lauren Sherman
It felt.
- [77:41]
Bonnie Morrison
And I think also the. The sort of. Of glam looked a little Viennese or something.
- [77:45]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [77:46]
Bonnie Morrison
Poliscola is. It's like they went for it. Yeah.
- [77:50]
Lauren Sherman
Christopher wearing Christopher John Rogers, which I think is cool. I mean, look, like there was a lot. There was a lot of. A lot of people made. Made an effort. People could have thought a little harder. I did enjoy Monica Babaro's Edwardian suit situation. If you're gonna do a. It's a. It was Dior. It was not like it was the least offensive to me of. Of the. The dumb suits. And I agree with you that Tracee Ellis Ross looked great. I thought that Cynthia Erivo and Custom Givenchy looked incredible. Like, it was a really, really amazing look and she always nails it. Like. I just think she has a really amazing presence on the red carpet. And I. I like seeing. I'm excited to see what she's gonna wear.
- [78:42]
Bonnie Morrison
I also liked for her. It seemed. Maybe it's because she wasn't wearing Vuitton. I think she. It's. It was the least fussy.
- [78:51]
Lauren Sherman
Yes.
- [78:52]
Bonnie Morrison
Quite the most like clothes. Yes. But you could see the work. You could see her incredible body. Like it. But it felt. And obviously she wasn't dressed like alpha, but like there was. She. She didn't need. Would hang on any sort of. Sort of reference to the project she was working on. And I think it felt. This is something that I liked. You know, she always gives you something that's very, very, very theatrical, which I tend not to be. As you know, I'm always looking for like what I wear about or could that be worn by someone else. But I thought that. Yeah. I thought she looked great. I thought. I thought Simone Biles, I have to say. I mean, she's giving full Jambenet, which. God bless her. You know, we don't expect the athletes to. Yeah. That's not what the. Why the athletes were there. Although I Thought Serena looked great and I thought Venus looked great.
- [79:42]
Lauren Sherman
I. Yeah, I thought. I thought Serena looked especially good, but, yeah, they both look good. Speaking of JonBenet, somebody mentioned that Sabrina Carpenter's hair is giving John. John Benet, and it's so true. She really needs to change. Change the hair.
- [79:56]
Bonnie Morrison
I mean, absolutely. I mean, 100% JonBenet. Although, weirdly, I think JonBenet would be older than. Yeah, JonBenet would be way older than Sabrina Carpenter.
- [80:04]
Lauren Sherman
Oh, my God. Very creepy. Very creepy.
- [80:06]
Bonnie Morrison
Which is weird to think about.
- [80:08]
Lauren Sherman
Okay, I have two more. And then you should do your final thoughts and we should go because. Because this is a. Also anyone is interested. I'm going to be on jam session today talking red carpet with Amanda Dobbins as well. If you want more red carpet. But I thought IO. Edda Berry in, you know, Max, who's the designer at Ferragamo, did a bunch of different people. I thought the most, the best look was IO and I love that she's been, like, showing her boobs, which she doesn't do a lot. And speaking of other, like. And it was just like a beautiful, tailored look that was not a suit and very cool and interesting and I thought she looked amazing.
- [80:48]
Bonnie Morrison
I didn't get it.
- [80:49]
Lauren Sherman
You don't like it?
- [80:50]
Bonnie Morrison
I. It's not that I didn't like it. I just didn't get it. One thing that I have to say about Ferragamo, though, thank God they finally picked a designer who's not making anorax. Did you notice that all their shows at every single runner show was like an anorak?
- [81:07]
Lauren Sherman
I wonder if there was like, one of the family members was like, please make an anorak.
- [81:11]
Bonnie Morrison
Please make an anorak. There was always an anorak. I mean, there was always like. And there's nothing I hate more than a jacket with a zipper.
- [81:17]
Lauren Sherman
This is a brand that should not. Not that it's a. That's a story. That's a story for another episode. The one final thing I will say is. Had nothing to do with the theme, but I thought Miley Cyrus looked really good in a lie. I can't help it. I just was really. She looked awesome.
- [81:30]
Bonnie Morrison
Like, she looked incredible. She looked incredible. But. But again, like, it's like if this were. If. If this were. I mean, everyone looked like they were in mourning ever. And I think that that was just a huge missed opportunity because it's. It's going to be a sea of. I mean, look, we're all getting the pictures now. We don't need to pick up an issue of Vogue in six weeks to see what people wore, and we wouldn't do that anyway. But I just. I don't know. I just, like, there was a lot of black and. Because when I think about the people who wore color or did something interesting, even to me, you know, that was black and white. But even, like, that's what I remember in my mind. Everything else, all of. All of the black dresses all completely blend into one. So.
- [82:14]
Lauren Sherman
Bonnie, thank you so much for being here. Do you have a final thought on your. Your day of Met Gala and. And Met and Costume Institute?
- [82:23]
Bonnie Morrison
My final thought is, you know, every year I wonder, you know, we have so many red carpet events and there are so many award shows, and there are so many. And I always think, is this going to be the year that the Met Gala, you know, that we sort of like that we sort of put it in the continuum of, like, how culturally relevant is it? You know, it's fun, but I think the meaning of the Met is still evolving, and I think that I feel grateful that this is a year. I'm really curious to know how the show. How people actually react to the show. This will be a year that I'm really paying attention to that. That. And to see, like, you know, what resonance, you know, does this have any. Any other resonance or effect on how we. How we view fashion and how we view sort of who belongs in fashion and who has an influence on fashion? I think this is actually an opportunity that we haven't had. You know, we've had Karl. We've spotlighted, you know, designers or countries or. And I think that this may be, you know, let's see. Let's see what this leads to, because I think it could potentially be something more meaningful than whatever attempts we've made about trying to either sort of integrate fashion or analyze the influence of all these disparate voices. I don't want to be overly optimistic or over define it, but I hope the conversation continues. And I'm really curious to see it. I'm really curious to see what other people think about it, and hopefully there will be interesting conversations and conclusions that come from that. So we'll see.
- [84:04]
Lauren Sherman
Bonnie, thank you so much. This was so fun. This is also the longest podcast we've all ever recorded, so congratulations. Oh, my gosh. Cut it in half.
- [84:11]
Bonnie Morrison
Cut it in half. I don't.
- [84:12]
Lauren Sherman
No, no, no. It was awesome. It was so good. We won't cut that much. It was. It was great, though. I really appreciate you taking so much time and doing it last minute. It means a lot. But you should come back because this was so good.
- [84:23]
Bonnie Morrison
I would love to. Thank you so much.
- [84:26]
Lauren Sherman
Fashion People is a presentation of of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. In additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob Tabador.