The Everlane Blowback

Summary

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Fashion People – “The Everlane Blowback”

Host: Lauren Sherman
Guest: Retcho Amandi (host of The Cutting Room Floor)
Release Date: May 26, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Lauren Sherman is joined by Retcho Amandi for an expansive, candid conversation on current events and behind-the-scenes dynamics shaping the fashion industry. Key discussions include the fallout from Everlane’s purchase by Shein, the evolution and future of licensing deals like Marc Jacobs’ sale to WHP, the sensational Mango murder scandal, shifting dynamics within the red carpet business, and the ongoing tension between luxury value and consumer perception. The tone is inquisitive, grounded, and often self-reflective, with sharp industry insights and relatable anecdotes from both hosts.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Real Value (and Awkward Dynamics) of Attending Fashion Shows

Timestamps: 05:12–12:39

• Navigating the Circuit: Both Lauren and Retcho express ambivalence about attending fashion shows, agreeing the qualitative impact is often uncertain.
• Surreal Social Sphere: Retcho describes the fashion-show circuit as “an entire industry moving around almost like a school of fish” (06:00), highlighting the often surface-level relationships and transactional nature of these gatherings.
• Changing Invitations & Brand Relations: Lauren discusses how brands’ guest lists have evolved, with more non-editors and influencers being invited and her own need to navigate being selective:
  • “I have to be really, really truthful with myself...am I upset I didn’t get invited?...nine times out of ten, I’m able to manage it.” (10:08)
  • Show coverage is less popular: “everywhere I’ve ever worked, show coverage has been the lowest thing” (07:27)
• Added Value of In-Person Attendance: Seeing the clothes firsthand and observing front-row dynamics remain invaluable for reporting.

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2. The Marc Jacobs x WHP Acquisition – Future of Licensing

Timestamps: 12:39–24:08

• Licensing Landscape: Lauren and Retcho unpack Marc Jacobs’ recent sale to WHP, contextualizing it alongside other major deals (e.g., Rag & Bone, Off-White).
• Business Evolution: Lauren details how this could represent a “new model for licensing" in fashion, with creative directors remaining while product is massively licensed, often unseen by traditional audiences (e.g., “malls in Thailand”).
  • “With Off White...the retail revenue now is $700 million. They’re licensing that thing up the wazoo, and we just don’t see any of that product.” (18:02)
• Survival versus Legacy: Lauren explains why sales to licensing firms can be positive, especially for brands that are too large or mature for traditional private equity. She notes the potential for continued relevance:
  • “I think the Mark shows are still gonna be the Mark shows for as long as he wants to do them.” (21:57)
• Creativity & Commerce: Both agree Marc Jacobs himself is a critical asset that WHP should nurture.

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3. The “Mango Murder” Scandal

Timestamps: 25:16–31:57

• Summary: The son of Mango’s founder is under investigation for the alleged murder of his father under suspicious circumstances while hiking in Spain.
• Business Implications: The hosts speculate on how family dynamics and massive wealth intersect with fashion business intrigue, referencing how similar situations (like Gucci) evolve into full business stories.
• Notable Quote:
  • Retcho: “The story is such...the dad falls off a cliff. They all thought it was a tragic incident until more investigating...now they’ve arrested the son.” (26:24)
• Culture Gap: Lauren points out the story’s limited US traction due to Mango’s relatively minor Stateside presence—though she expects a “big New York magazine spread” eventually.

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4. Cannes Red Carpet & Brand Power

Timestamps: 31:58–41:43

• Changing Landscape: Fewer Americans on the Cannes red carpet this year, making for more “European and indie” style impact, which Lauren found more interesting and authentic.
  • “You get really fancy dresses, but they tend to be more fashion than an Oscars or Met or whatever.” (36:42)
• Brands As Powerhouses: The discussion delves into how luxury fashion brands have become the most powerful players in entertainment, even outpacing studios in influence and wealth.
• Historical Context: Lauren explains it’s the result of time, global expansion, and enormous margins on handbags/leather goods/fragrance (37:45), along with unquantifiable brand penetration (“How many people actually own a Chanel bag?”).

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5. Luxury Consumer Fatigue & The Demise of “Aspirational” Fashion

Timestamps: 41:43–46:11

• Consumer Pushback: Retcho voices a growing sense of disrespect toward customers via aggressive pricing and dubious product value (e.g., BMW’s failed paid feature experiment).
  • “At some point it’s not about if you can afford it, it’s about the fact that you’re being taken advantage of.” (43:32)
• Winning Formulas: Truly wealthy customers now favor “quiet luxury” brands with consistent quality (Hermès, Chanel, Loro Piana, etc.) over trend-driven houses.
• Narrative and Perceived Value: Lauren underscores the importance of storytelling, noting most customers can’t gauge true quality but respond to how brands frame value.

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6. The Everlane x Shein Deal – Ethics, VC-Fashion & Retcho’s Take

Timestamps: 48:02–54:00

• The Everlane Blowback: Lauren details how founder Michael Preysman’s authentic vision was ultimately overrun by market pressures, leading to the recent Shein acquisition—now sparking him to start anew with a focus on quality basics.
• DTC Fatigue: Retcho dismisses Everlane as “widget clothing...I don’t really see it as a brainchild of a great idea as much as I saw it as a business opportunity.” (51:26)
• Fundamental Tension: Both acknowledge how commerce and ethics can conflict, particularly for mass-market brands propped up by venture capital.
• Resignation: Retcho sums up the Shein/Everlane deal:
  • “It is what it is. I do think it serves a certain demographic of person...I’m not super surprised.” (53:18)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Retcho Amandi:
  • On fashion’s social circuit: “It is very odd to me, the idea of an entire industry moving around almost like a school of fish...” (06:00)
  • On luxury pricing: “At some point it’s not about if you can afford it, it’s about the fact that you're being taken advantage of.” (43:32)
• Lauren Sherman:
  • On covering shows: “Everywhere I’ve ever worked, show coverage has been the lowest thing.” (07:27)
  • On licensing deals: “With Off White...the retail revenue for OffWhite now is $700 million. They’re licensing that thing up the wazoo, and we just don’t see any of that product.” (18:02)
  • On Everlane: “It was just the irony with the Shein purchase. I never expected it was going to be as big as it was.” (53:06)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 05:12 – Fashion Show Attendance: Utility and status
• 12:39 – Marc Jacobs Sale & Modern Licensing
• 25:16 – Mango Murder Scandal Overview
• 31:58 – Cannes Red Carpet and Brand Influence
• 41:43 – Luxury Consumer Sentiment & “Quiet Luxury” Brands
• 48:02 – The Everlane—Shein Blowback and DTC Legacy

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Additional Context & Tone

• The conversation is forthright, personally revealing, and sometimes darkly humorous.
• Both Lauren and Retcho are critical but fair, representing the skeptical, insider-journalist’s voice.
• Audience is encouraged to reach out with info/stories, aligning with the show’s “behind the PR” ethos.

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For Listeners Who Missed The Episode

• This episode deftly covers industry news (Marc Jacobs’ sale, Mango scandal, Everlane’s fate) while contextualizing how fashion’s power, money, and legitimacy are rapidly evolving.
• If you’re curious about how high-stakes deals, crime stories, and red carpets are reshaping the industry conversation—or just wondering what insiders really think about the biggest brand headlines—this episode offers a highly informed (and entertainingly skeptical) perspective.

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Transcript

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[Lauren Sherman]

Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's fashion and beauty Memo line sheet and today with me on the show is Retcho Amandi, host of the Cutting Room Floor. We're talking about the Mango murder, the business of the red carpet, Everlane and Shein, and so much more. Happy Tuesday everyone. I hope you had a great week. I am back in Paris. I had a very nice time in Bath at the Fashion PR wedding. Congrats again to Gabrielle and Owen and to everyone who looked so good at the wedding, including Gabrielle's mother who was just truly gorgeous. Anyway, I went to London. I ran into some friends which was really nice and even a Fashion People listener. Sorry I was on the phone. If I had not been interviewing someone I would have gotten off to speak to you but I was in the middle of an important interview. And then on this Thursday I'm headed back to the UK to Bicester Village to interview Alex Eagle for a future episode. If you would like to attend that recording you can email Eric News and he will help you out. You have to go to Mr. Village for it, but I would love to see you. I know some of you are coming out. It would be really fun and obviously Alex Eagle has lots of fans. Otherwise I will catch you on Friday and be sure to relive. Retro Omandi. Welcome to Fashion People.

[Retcho Amandi]

Hi Lauren. I'm excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

[Lauren Sherman]

I'm so happy to have you. It's. It's far overdue. The last time I saw you I was on your podcast, which is way more professional.

[Retcho Amandi]

No, it was great though. I like think people were excited to hear from you in that in that

[Lauren Sherman]

format, it was really fun. Also, my boss was like, did you get Botox right before? You looked like you were 12.

[Retcho Amandi]

Looked amazing. I know the lights do pretty good in there.

[Lauren Sherman]

I would say they're incredible. Anyway, how was your weekend?

[Retcho Amandi]

Weekend was good. I mean, it was Memorial Day weekend, and I feel like everybody had fun plans, but not I. I was inside working. So, I mean, I feel like it was good in a sense that it was productive, but I didn't get that much sunlight. But it also rained quite a bit here in New York, so I don't think I missed that much.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, yeah. It's always fine to work on the weekends when you. When there is not. When the weather is not good.

[Retcho Amandi]

I know.

[Lauren Sherman]

That's the issue with Los Angeles. The weather is always good.

[Retcho Amandi]

Yeah. I love a long weekend because I feel like I can catch up, because I feel like it's. I'm in a constant state of catch up.

[Lauren Sherman]

What are you working? I mean, obviously you have the podcast, and. And I know you do that. You do series for that. Like, you take little breaks or do you just keep going every week?

[Retcho Amandi]

We're taking a break right now. We're on a hiatus. The show returns June 3rd. But do you mean, like, what am I doing for that?

[Lauren Sherman]

What are you working on? Are you working on the show? Prepping the next season? Are you working on some stories or mix of all of it?

[Retcho Amandi]

Yeah, we're prepping the show for next season, which will be season seven. And hiring. We're doing a lot of hiring right now. So it's, like, exciting. Yeah, it's exciting. It's, you know, interesting, I would say, but yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

What's interesting about it? Just like this generation.

[Retcho Amandi]

This generation? Well, I don't know. I think before it was about hiring who we could. And now we get to hide. Now we get to actually pursue people who are, like, super professional and experienced and just kind of, like, level up a little bit in that way. So I think we're just entering the market in a different way. Whereas when you're doing something new, you're kind of hiring fans.

[Lauren Sherman]

Totally.

[Retcho Amandi]

You know what I'm saying?

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes.

[Retcho Amandi]

And now we get to hire, like, professionals. So that's good.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. And the ideal is when they're professionals and a fan.

[Retcho Amandi]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

Is what I have found.

[Retcho Amandi]

Yeah. Then that's perfect. So, yeah, it's all of that. And I mean. I mean, I wish I could share more, but, yeah, we're just working behind the scenes, booking people and talking to their teams and getting the schedule ready and all that.

[Lauren Sherman]

Exciting. So how were the resort shows for you? You went. Did you go to Dior too, in la?

[Retcho Amandi]

I went to Dior in LA and I went to Louis here in the city.

[Lauren Sherman]

How were they? Did you have a good time? Had you been to resort shows before like that?

[Shopify Advertiser]

No.

[Retcho Amandi]

It's funny because I only really just started recently doing, like, the fashion show circuit, and I actually have mixed feelings about it. But while it's a huge honor to be invited and some parts of it just. I don't see how they can ever get old because they're just such exceptional experiences. Dior I thought was fantastic. Louis, I was a bit more confused, but, yeah, I went to both.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. It's interesting. I'm curious, when you say you have mixed feelings, because I do as well about attending, what do you mean?

[Retcho Amandi]

Well, I think I just spent so much of the early part of what I was doing just not going to shows, and we never really had. It's not that I didn't want to. It just wasn't a focus, I should say. It wasn't a priority, and it wasn't a focus. And I. And I found that it didn't really stop me from doing what I wanted to do, which was just the show, my podcast, and interviewing people. And we still got a lot of inquiries and a lot of pitches, so I was like, do I need to be there? Well, one season we decided to just kind of take a stab at it, and we went to Paris and did the whole thing and, you know, went to a lot of great shows, and it was amazing. But I guess I walked out of it wondering if it made a qualitative or even quantitative difference in, like, what I do. So. And then there's just like an, I think, an ever present, somewhat awkward social dynamic. I guess what I'm saying is this. It is very odd to me, the idea of an entire industry moving around almost like a school of fish. Right? Like in a group, in a herd, across different cities, across. Around the world. So you do see the same faces every day. And yet I still don't know any of these people is kind of my thing, you know, people on a very kind of surface level. And so I think that part is interesting because, as you know from my show, I have a tendency to kind of be like, I want to go all in if I know who you are and find out everything. Or, like, not.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, it's. You say school of fish, but it is just very much like a school.

[Retcho Amandi]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

Like, it's like Going to different classes, and you sit there and you might make a couple of connections because you're seated near a certain person. But it takes a long time. And it also has changed so much because so many more editors used to go. So the pool of editors has changed. The makeup of the kinds of people invited has changed. And, you know, I struggle with it, too, because of the way I write things. And it's not always what a brand wants. Like, sometimes I get invited, sometimes I don't. And I don't want to let whether I get invited or don't get invited color my feelings about a show. And I will say that, like, I tend to get invited to the brands that even if I don't always write, like, perfectly about them, they can tell I like the designer. And so that's a tricky thing. And then the other part of it is, like, from a coverage perspective, writing about the shows, like, not that many people read that stuff. And that's everywhere. That's not just like, with me, that I've been doing this for 15 years on the Internet, everywhere I've ever worked, show coverage has been the lowest thing. So it's about, like, how do you write about it in a way that gets people interested and that also there is a core readership that wants to know what I thought. Like, I didn't go to Louis Vuitton or Dior, actually, but, like, I wrote about them in the context of how I would like, why, what my reader would be interested in. So, yeah, it's fascinating, but I do think there's a big value for me as a reporter, and I'm sure as you as a reporter and a sort of cultural observer, there's a real value in seeing the clothes in person and also seeing the dynamics of the front row and even the way that the shows are staged and things. Like, the first, I went to see the Dior women's show. Yeah, I went to the Dior Couture, and then I went to the Women's Ready to Wear in February, March. And honestly, seeing those clothes in person and getting to go to a preview and hear Jonathan talk about it, it did make a difference. And if I had just seen them on a photo of what I would have thought about them. So it's. It's a fascinating thing. I think it's good to go sometimes. You don't have to always go, but it's good sometimes.

[Retcho Amandi]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Lauren Sherman]

Do you.

[Retcho Amandi]

Does it bother you when you don't get invited? Does that, like, is it important to you to Go to all things or are you selective too?

[Lauren Sherman]

Honestly, it doesn't bother me enough to stop being the way I am, if that makes sense. Like, sometimes it does because I want to go. But, like. And I also. I think there have been shows that I haven't been invited to that I really liked. And I was like, I really like the show. I thought it was great. Like, you have to be. You have to. I have to be really, really truthful with myself to. Am I upset I didn't get invited? And I think nine times out of ten, I'm able. Or nine and a half times out of ten, I'm able to manage it. And also, like, there were show. I was invited to Dior and Gucci, the resort shows. I wasn't invited to Louis Vuitton, but I also didn't. You know, it's fine. But I didn't go to them because I just was like, I can't. I'm gonna go to Hermes in. In June. But, like, we don't take press trips. I can't. I don't. I wasn't in la. I. I don't live in New York. And I was just like, you know what? I. This time it doesn't make sense. LA made more sense for Hermes because there's a Zenya show also and the sort of meetings I'll be able to do when I'm there. And also, I've been away from LA for six months. Like, it felt worth putting the investment into Hermes, but like Dior and Gucci. As much as I kind of felt bad I wasn't there, I also was like, you know what? It wasn't. It didn't make sense. And I'll be in. In Paris in June for men's and couture, so. And it In Milan for men. So, like, yeah, it's. I don't think I need to be there all the time, but I need to be there sometimes is the. Is my takeaway. And I feel that that is the case for every single person, unless they're an editor in chief of a magazine. And then they have to be there most of the time because it's just too complicated not to be.

[Retcho Amandi]

That's crazy. But yeah, that's a lot. But yeah, that makes sense.

[Lauren Sherman]

Well, and that. That's the other thing. Like, it's just so much travel. If I had gone. Cause I went to New York around the Met. If I had stayed for Gucci and then gone to Dior or gone to New York and stayed for Gucci and then come back For Gucci. I wouldn't have been in Paris for all of May. I'd be away from my family. It's hard. It's a tricky. It's a tricky thing. But I think it's great that you're going and dabbling.

[Retcho Amandi]

Yeah, we'll see for how long. But yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

So one show I feel like I saw you at last season was Marc Jacobs. And last week there was some big news that Marc Jacobs was sold to whp, this big licensing firm. I remember that Marc was one of your first guests or a very early guest. No. Are you like one of your first.

[Retcho Amandi]

No, I've never had. Mark, I feel like you. Are you kidding me?

[Lauren Sherman]

Mark has never been on your podcast?

[Retcho Amandi]

Are you kidding? This is a PSA to Michael Ariano. Listen, Michael knows I've been.

[Lauren Sherman]

Wait.

[Retcho Amandi]

Stalking him, trying to get Mark on the show. Mark's never. Wait, Mark has never been on.

[Lauren Sherman]

I swear to God. He was on your podcast.

[Retcho Amandi]

It blows my mind by the way that. Well, I'm trying to decide that this should be an off. An off camera conversation. But no, Mark's never been on yet. Michael, if you're listening, it's time.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's totally time.

[Retcho Amandi]

It's beyond time.

[Lauren Sherman]

Mark, you're also welcome on Fashion People, but let's give this one to Retcho because I really. I don't. How could I have imagined that?

[Retcho Amandi]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

Does he engage with you on social media?

[Retcho Amandi]

Mark? No, not really. I mean, his publicist does.

[Lauren Sherman]

I think we, we love Michael Arellano. He is also welcome on. On Fashion Feast.

[Retcho Amandi]

Yeah, he's.

[Lauren Sherman]

I don't know if it makes sense for you.

[Retcho Amandi]

I think some of these, some of these, like, bigger gets are really interesting to me because while I understand why they want to do the run of the mill media that they've been doing for a thousand years, there's something about tapping into like people and like the pedestrian of the industry that they're just not accessing. So I think what I notice is like, there's a certain type of person who still believes in like the insular ecosystem, the island that the whole business lives on. And I just don't think that world exists anymore.

[Lauren Sherman]

So.

[Retcho Amandi]

So when they don't kind of leave the island and they wanted to go to the same kind of three pit stops, I'm like, I always feel I can do so much more for them if they would come sit down and for the brand and for their profile than say the run of the mill, like pit stops, like I said. But it takes. They just Kind of go in this kind of wash, rinse, repeat media strategy. And I just feel like for so many of them, it's time to switch it up.

[Lauren Sherman]

Well, also, I think with podcasts, I've heard, like, there was a designer who was pitched to me, and I was like, sure. I don't. I think we've talked about this when I was on your podcast. I don't really pitch a lot of people. I don't try to get bigger names. Sometimes I will, but it's more. It just hasn't been the strategy from when I first started. It was more about, like, try to get behind the scenes, people who will have an honest conversation. Because it's so. As you know, it's so much work to book people. But this designer, they reached out and they were like, would you want her to do it? And I said, yeah, I'm down. And then they were like, we're not doing any podcasts. So I think the interesting thing also is they're nervous about podcasts, even though it's such a. It's in some ways so much more exposing and in some ways less exposing. But I agree that if sometimes I see that they've done a certain podcast, and I'm like, but no one listens.

[Retcho Amandi]

No one listens to that or no one cares.

[Lauren Sherman]

And maybe that's why they do it.

[Retcho Amandi]

Well, that is.

[Lauren Sherman]

Maybe that's why they do it.

[Retcho Amandi]

Or it doesn't. It doesn't move the needle. It doesn't. It doesn't penetrate. Culture doesn't start a new conversation. It's just kind of like you came, you saw, you sat down, and it just, you know, it's forgotten.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. Well, anyway, not to. Not to totally dump on Michael, because he really is one of the best in the business, and I love him, but he, You, Mark, should do your podcast. I also wanted to do Fashion people at some point, but, like, let's prioritize retro in this case.

[Retcho Amandi]

Thank you, Michael. I'll be emailing you again probably after this. Anyway, anyway, so how do you feel

[Lauren Sherman]

about this sale to whp? What do you think about it? Is it because you used to be a designer? You've been on, like, all different sides of the industry. What do you think about the fact that he is now going to be owned by one of these big licensing firms?

[Retcho Amandi]

I mean, I don't know. I feel like Mark's had so many different iterations of his brand. Right. And there's been so many different, you know, chapters. And I feel like there's been a long Conversation? No. About him being acquired for, like, the last several months, if not years. Is that. Am I making that up?

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. No, it's been over a year. The company was almost acquired by another one of these big authentic brands.

[Retcho Amandi]

Authentic brands was going to buy it, right?

[Lauren Sherman]

Exactly. Yeah. Yes.

[Retcho Amandi]

So I don't know. I guess I have more questions for Mark, you know, from a business perspective. And this is one of those things that, like, I feel like people don't while when it comes to, like, my interviews and things like that. Yes, I love to talk to the creative about their vision, but, like, I want to talk to them about their business. So I guess my question for it would be for Mark is maybe, like, what the upside is for him to do this. Is he tired of designing? Does he? Does he. It's a. It's a licensing deal. Is that correct?

[Lauren Sherman]

So it's. It is, but I. What I have written a bit about is I do think this could be like, a new model for licensing. And if you look at Off White, which I'm. That's a complicated situation because of how it left lvmh. But if you look at how they've managed it, IB the creative director stayed. He still does fashion shows. They still sell Off White. But then I've. The reporting I've done, the retail revenue for off white now is $700 million. So, like, they're licensing that thing up the wazoo, and we just don't see any of that product. So. And that's owned by Blue Star Alliance. So it's. It's. It's a smaller firm than whp, but I would say, like, WHP also recently bought Rag and Bone, and that's in a joint venture with Guess. So Rag and Bone sort of operates the way it did. It's just that it's now owned by this licensing firm, and they're probably licensing it in ways that we don't even see. And with w. Marc Jacobs, they went in on it with G3, which had bought Donna Karan Fulley from LVMH. And what I would say, what will change? I bet they'll still let him do the fashion show. The beauty just relaunched. That deal is still on. What I think will change is there will be a lot more Marc Jacobs product in a lot of different places, but probably places that we won't see see.

[Retcho Amandi]

So what do you mean by that? Like, why do you think we don't see the Off White product or what we're talking about?

[Lauren Sherman]

Because it's in malls and, like, random malls in Thailand that we would never go to. It's like hidden.

[Retcho Amandi]

So then that, that, that begs the question though, are these deals where these brands go to die?

[Lauren Sherman]

Well, it depends. Like there isn't anywhere else for them to go at this point. So what these new fangled licensing firms are purporting is that they are. No, they're not the licensing firm of your where it's just like Betsy Johnson tights everywhere in the world. These are brand management firms where they are going to take care of the brand and make sure in the brand sort of like regions where they came up like in for Marc Jacobs or most of these brands west the western world that they're the brand will remain intact. And yes it will be. One a reader messaged me and said is this going to mean that it's going to be way more off price? Mark James is already an off price. So like you're just not going to off price if you don't see it there. So I think the reality is there just too many brands and there is, there are fewer acquirers, there aren't that many strategic groups and there aren't private equity firms. When a brand gets too big, they don't want it or if it's on the decline. Private equity firms want brands that are sort of either totally wiped out and can be. They want brands that can be built up. So if you're like a Marc Jacobs which is you know, even right now still like a pretty good business but, but declining for one, because they weren't investing in it because they were trying to sell it. But two, because it's like it's been around for a long time. It doesn't really make sense for a private equity firm to buy it because it already makes like 6, 7, $800 million a year. It's not going to to get it up to like 1.5 billion that it's a private equity firm wouldn't know how to do that at this point. If it was like 100 million then maybe it would be worth it because it would be cheap. But, but yeah, so I think it depends like the next 10 years we're really going to see what happens. Like either these brands are going to just start to fall in their faces or this is the future of how stuff gets acquired. And Marc Jacobs is a good first experiment because I want to see Marc Jacobs socks and, and cheapo bags and stuff. Like it reminds me of that store that he had in the West Village 15 years ago where it was just like mark by mark by Mark by mark by mark. I think it could be really fun. And I think he has a good attitude about it. He, from what I know, owned 20% of the business still. So he made a ton of money because they sold it for. From the people that I talked to, probably north of 800 million. So he made a lot of money on it. And LVMH made money. It was close. They wanted a billion for it. They got around that. And, you know, this is probably the evolution of it, where it should go. And someone else said, like, look at Isaac Mizrahi. That man is making tons of money. He hasn't run a ready to wear business in, I don't know, 15, 20 years. He's living his best life. And maybe that's okay. Like, you have to decide what you want. But again, I think they're gonna. I think the Mark shows are still gonna be the Mark shows for as long as he wants to do them. And if that's not the case, that's too bad because it's an easy. Like, it's not like his shows are that expensive to put on. It's an easy marketing thing. And everybody loves them. They love going to them. He's someone that people still really value his work within the industry. And so to me, like, spending. They probably don't even spend a million bucks on those shows. Maybe. So.

[Retcho Amandi]

Yeah, the last show that I went to, the most recent one, I thought it was very minimal. And I didn't know if that was typical, if that was typical or if that was, you know, seasonal.

[Lauren Sherman]

It. It used to not be typical, but when the brand in the. Around 2015, 2016, 27 started to have some issues because of. They did a restructuring that didn't work. They started doing these really bare minimum folding chair shows at the Armory. And he sometimes has done, like this one, they had an Anna Wayne painting. The paint was still wet that she did for the show. Maybe she gave it to him as a gift because they're friends and they have a creative dialogue. I don't know. But like that. If they paid for it, that was probably the most expensive thing about the. And also obviously the samples because that is not cheap. But yeah, he does it bare bones and it's about the clothes and even like there. He always has something to say. And that is. That's so rare today that I think, like, if WHP is smart, they will engage him a ton because he's still like, very relevant and in it.

[Retcho Amandi]

Yeah, yeah, he's an important asset for them.

[Lauren Sherman]

So good so good. So good.

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[Lauren Sherman]

That's.

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[Lauren Sherman]

What if everything you learn in history class was only half the story? I'm Dr. Haruni Bhatt, host of Hidden History. Every Monday I go where history gets mysterious. Vanished civilizations, doomsday prophecies, paranormal phenomena and

[Commercial Narrator]

events that science still can't fully explain.

[Lauren Sherman]

On Hidden history. I treat these moments like open case files. Not myths, not superstition, just incomplete explanations waiting for a closer look. Listen to and follow Hidden History available now wherever you get your podcasts. Another thing in the news last week was this the sort of culmination of this Mango murder story.

[Retcho Amandi]

Do you know about this Mango murder story?

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes. So the one of the heirs to the Mango empire. Let me pull up, pull it up.

[Retcho Amandi]

We're talking about the clothing store, right?

[Lauren Sherman]

Yep. Yeah. Mango's founder's son steps down as vice president amid murder investigation. The son of the founder of the Catalan fashion company Mango has issued an open letter to employees after being released on bail in connection with the alleged murder of his father, Isaac Ondik. So this is from Caliber Da Az. I don't know what that is. I'm in Europe. We don't have to talk about this for very long. But isn't this a crazy story about this? It's like this guy is being accused of murdering his father and he's the heir to the Mango fortune. He also works at Mango still.

[Retcho Amandi]

Yeah, I don't know. I'm catching up on this and I'm inclined to believe that he may have had something to do with it.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's wild.

[Retcho Amandi]

It's just be.

[Lauren Sherman]

Just because what, Isaac was a Jewish.

[Retcho Amandi]

Okay. To be fair for all the listeners out there, I'm only reading one article on BBC and I hadn't heard about this before 10 seconds ago. So take my. Whatever I'm about to say with a grain of salt. But I mean, the story is such. Right. The founder of Mango died in December of 24. So. Right. I would say like, right. The top of 25. And they only arrested this gentleman, his son, whose father, 45, the founder was in his 70s, I think, just in October. So 10 months later. Right. And essentially these two went hiking they were alone on the mountains of Spain. The dad falls off a cliff. And they all thought it was a tragic incident until they go back and do more investigating. And now they've arrested the son who they believe was involved. And one thing I think is tricky is the fact that it was just the two of them. So no witnesses, no nothing. Um, it's kind of like a tree falling in the forest kind of argument now and then two, they're saying that the way that he fell doesn't line up with where they claim the son was. The son claims that his dad was behind him and. And fell so that he heard screaming and went back and he fell. And I'm like, I don't know. That seems suspicious because. Not suspicious, but like, super convenient. Yeah, because then you can't say, oh, I saw him fall. And then you have more data points and this is how it happened. You just go, I don't know. I was just walking and I turned behind me and he was gone. I don't know, bro.

[Lauren Sherman]

You know the amount of requests I've gotten to cover this, which I'm. I don't.

[Retcho Amandi]

I.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's like, this is. Maybe I could move to Barcelona for like 15 years or so. I mean, for like the next year to figure this out. I don't, I don't think, like, all I will say is that this stuff, usually you just follow the money and we'll find out why this has happened. I don't know, like, maybe it was. Maybe we'll discover, but I don't. If you all have ideas of how you want me to cover this story, I am open to them, other than, obviously when there's a development, I link. But this is also not a business that I cover very closely for no reason other than the fact that, like, I don't cover a lot of fast fashion or, or high street brands. But in the BBC story, it says that there is a motive in the nature of the relationship with Jonathan, particularly in the context of the Mango business. So maybe there is, you know, a, a big business story here. Like the Gucci murders ended up being a big business story. We'll see. Hopefully they figure out what happened with this guy. And I will keep updating you all in incremental ways. But yeah, it's, it's interesting. The, the son and the two sisters share control of a holding company that has a 95% stake in Mango.

[Retcho Amandi]

Yep, that's what I'm reading right now. Yeah. So, I mean, and it says here that according to the investigation, Jonathan, the Son exercised emotional manipulation over his father in order to achieve his economic objectives, and that he had, in quote, verbalized feelings of hatred, resentment, and ideas related to death and blame aimed at Isaac, his father.

[Lauren Sherman]

He is also married to an influencer named Paula nata, who has 121,000 followers, but is now private for obvious reasons. And they just had a kid in September, which is unfortunate, but, yeah, it's very dramatic. This is definitely going to be a movie someday.

[Retcho Amandi]

Yep. Yep. I mean, if it is a truly genuine accident, and that's horrifying and so sad. And then imagine. Imagine if there is an accident this traumatizing and it does look bad on you. Like, imagine you're innocent and all things point against you. Like, that also is a huge pickle to be in as well, where you're like, I know how this looks, but it really had nothing to do with me, or you are knowing more than you're saying. So I don't know. I mean, obviously, it's more salacious and exciting to say that there's a murder mystery, but, like, this poor guy, if he really didn't do anything wrong and he just happened to be there with his dad, and that's terrible. So I don't know.

[Lauren Sherman]

It is really a disturbing story that all the American publications need to. Need to get on this immediately.

[Retcho Amandi]

You think so?

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, I mean, it's. Well, it's interesting because I think it hasn't. It has not gotten that big because people in the US don't really care that much about Mango. It obviously exists, but it's not like. Also, it's not a. It never was, like, a huge part of the culture. They used to make really great pants. I don't know if that's still the case, but, yeah, I feel like we're gonna see a couple. To me, it feels like a big New York magazine spread. Maybe they already did one. Actually, someone. Someone did do it. Anyway, it's an interesting little corner of the fashion world. And again, if you all want me to write about it more, you need to send me information, because I'm not. I'm not sourced up at Mango, so. So if you want me to do that, I need some. I need. I need some motivation, some support.

[Retcho Amandi]

Got it.

[Lauren Sherman]

Moving on to something a little less heady. Were you following the Cannes red carpet this year?

[Retcho Amandi]

No, I actually don't follow red carpet that much.

[Lauren Sherman]

Are you just not interested? Which is understandable.

[Retcho Amandi]

You know, it's so funny. I remember listening to an episode of Fashion People, and I cannot, for the Life of me. Remember who you were talking to, but the two. What was it? Catherine? Have you read Catherine Power on your show?

[Lauren Sherman]

Hillary Kerr.

[Retcho Amandi]

Hillary Kerr. Okay, so maybe it was you and Hillary. You and Hillary. And you guys were talking about red carpet, and you guys were so well versed in who was it wearing what, and what brands they came with, and who was their stylist, and da, da, da. And I was like, wow, this is fascinating, because, like, I feel like I know, but these women, like, know what's going on. Why I don't pay attention to red carpet that much. I mean, if a picture shows up on my timeline, I'm like, oh, they look pretty. And, like, I might look at. Check the tag and see who they wore. But Cannes? No. Why? Did something interesting happen that I should know about?

[Lauren Sherman]

Well, I would say the interesting thing was there were fewer Americans at Cannes this year. And my friend Amanda Dobbins, who has been on this podcast many times, who's a film critic and podcast host of a pop culture podcast called Jan Session, and then also, like, the biggest movie podcast is called the Big Picture. It's on the ringer. She's been on a few times to talk red carpet, and she was in Cannes, and then she came to Paris, and we got to, like, hang out. I actually took a day off to hang out with her. It was really fun. But we were talking about why. I was asking her, like, why weren't there as many American films debuting there? And I guess, like, it just doesn't really make a lot of business sense there. It still makes sense for, like, a Netflix to debut at Venice because they don't really do a lot of marketing otherwise. But what tends to happen is if a film debuts at Cannes, this is probably extremely. What's the word? When you make something reductive, it's extremely reductive. But essentially, a lot of times if the film doesn't get good reviews, you kind of screw yourself over. And also, the European critics have different tastes than the American critics, and so it just doesn't make. There was a film that debuted there called Jordan Firstman's Film. I forget.

[Retcho Amandi]

Let me look.

[Lauren Sherman]

That apparently is awesome. And. And it got. Got sold. And it was. It was good that they debuted there. It was his club kid. So that. That. And. And also the. The film Fjord that won the. The poem, the, like, big award, I think was also good. Renata runs V is in it. But I think generally it was interesting because there weren't as many Americans. Demi Moore was there because she was on the jury and she.

[Retcho Amandi]

Her.

[Lauren Sherman]

The substance had. Had been big there the year previous. And so she was like all up in the red carpet wearing a lot of Gucci jackamus, like a lot of really amazing stuff. Julianne Moore was there because caring does a big event there. And Julianne Moore is a big Bottega ambassador, so she was wearing tons of Bottega. What I would say is it was a lot more European and indie actresses and actors. So there's just. It's. It's fun to see that. Like, I think that this actress who I believe is in blue is the warmest color with Leah Sedo named Adele. She's a very European last name. That's hard that Malik and I talked about last week. Adele Exarcopolis. She was wearing Phoebe Philo on one of the red carpets and like this big white blouse. And she looked amazing. She looked great the whole time. She wore Saint Laurent. Charlotte Gainsbourg wore a lot of Saint. There was a. She wore Saint Laurent. There was a lot of Saint Laurent. But I think what you get at a. At any film festival, but especially at Cannes, is like, you get really fancy dresses, but they tend to be more fashion than an Oscars or Met or whatever. So. And I would say, like, it's interesting. Hillary is an expert on the red carpet, which is why she also made me sound smart. But I find that part of the business fascinating because of the fact that so much of the marketing budget is put towards it now. So even though, like, most of the dresses are super boring, and that's why I follow it, because I'm like, oh, they put that much money into this whole event? Or like something like Louis Vuitton, who has dozens of ambassadors and dresses. So many people, every single thing. The looks at Cannes are the best looks they do because it's with like Cate Blanchett and Leah Seydoux. So it's like really amazing stuff. Whereas at the Met, like, they're more doing prom dress type things for the most part. So that's. That's was my takeaway that like the indie ness or the. The non American ness of Cannes made the red carpet way more interesting for me.

[Retcho Amandi]

How did these brands, over the last, like, what is it, 50 years or so, how did these brands build so much wealth and money and power? Like, how did this happen? Because these are the most powerful players, it feels like, in the entire entertainment industry now are these brands, I think

[Lauren Sherman]

a combination of things. One is time. So it, it's. These are old brands that have not always been in business, like Dior was nothing for 30 years or whatever. I mean, it was in business, but not really. But everybody knows the brands and then the margin, then the globalization. So in the 90s it went from maybe you had one store in Tokyo and a store in New York that someone else ran for you to having stores all over the world, including China, which is, remember, big enough to sustain any of these companies. And then I think the other thing is the margins on handbags and leather goods and perfume are so big, it's so hard. My friend Amanda actually always asks, like, how many people actually own Chanel bags? And the thing is, no one knows. Like, no one. I've tried to get people Chanel to like, well, how many people actually own a Chanel bag? And I don't know if there are many people who work there who actually know that answer. But the thing is it's millions. And then on top of that, the margin on each of those bags is so great.

[Retcho Amandi]

Well, I, I'm getting to a point now where I feel like we're being. The customer's being disrespected at this point in some cases.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes, you're right. And that is why the, the Goldman Sachs just released a like state of luxury report. And the. It says everything, you know, but it's like all the brands that cater to really, really wealthy customers are okay. Any brand that has a sort of aspirational customer is struggling. And Chanel is an anomaly because of the fact that A, their prices are not, it's not cheap, but like, compared to a lot of their competitors, it feels reasonable. And B, there are a lot of different ways to access it. And the same thing with their measure, you can buy 120 or a $250 little scarf from Hermes and it feels more if valuable than buying like A, a junky wallet from one of the sort of lesser luxury brands.

[Retcho Amandi]

So, okay, so, but who are the kind of luxury brands that you think have a truly wealthy client versus the aspirational one, like who are at the top for you?

[Lauren Sherman]

So Hermes, Brunello, Cinelli, Moncler, Zenya. So Laura Piana. Basically anything that's not really fashion. And Chanel is unique because it's both. So it's because it's independently owned, it's sort of managed more like one of these leather goods houses. But also their beauty and fragrance has been in existence since the, since the 1920s also. So like. But I think those are the ones that. And Louis Vuitton. Louis Vuitton is interesting because it has the aspirational customer, but it. Because it's leather goods and it's not.

[Commercial Narrator]

They.

[Lauren Sherman]

I mean, they've had a lot of challenges in the last year, but I would say that they are less sensitive to the fashion piece as a Dior or a Gucci because it is a leather goods house. So you see it in the numbers. You can see who's. And then. And then the other thing is for people who really love fashion, fashion, they're buying the row, they're buying Kate, they're buying Alaia, they're buying smaller brands that maybe they feel like you're not going to get them, or Phoebe Filo, that sort of thing, because that's a smaller group of people than the sort of leather goods person who's.

[Retcho Amandi]

Who.

[Lauren Sherman]

But I think generally what I wrote, it's gonna come out on Wednesday about this is like, I still just think that the. The customer behavior has changed. Like, why would anyone buy something full price when you can get it? You can get like a cooler version of it. I was just with a photographer having coffee, and he said, I buy everything. Archive. He said he didn't call it vintage. He said archive because it's more fun. Like, there's nothing fun about going to one of these stores and buying some random thing that looks like everything else that's way overpriced. I don't know. I mean, have you. Has your shopping behavior changed in the last couple of years?

[Retcho Amandi]

Yes and no. I mean, I kind of splurge a little bit more on the fun things that I covet just because I can. Just because, like, I've made a little bit more money, but I still have a hard. I mean, I was just talking about this with Chris Black and, you know, on how long gone. I still have a hard time with shopping at this level unless I know the quality is good. And because I used to be a product developer, I feel like it's very hard to pull the wool over my eyes. Like, I understand certain sewing techniques and qualities and fabrics and leathers and when something is synthetic, et cetera. So it's like when I see certain things being charged, what they're being charged. Yes, you have the, like, kind of 1% consumer and they're going to buy. And I feel like those people are going to buy no matter what. I don't think they're educated consumers as much as they purport themselves to be. I think that they really, at the end of the day, still want a brand name because if they truly understood what some of this Quality is, I don't think that they would. Whether you could afford it or not at some point it's not about if you can afford it, it's about the fact that you're taking and being taken advantage of.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Retcho Amandi]

And like for example I was, BMW rolled this back, but BMW recently had introduced this idea of a subscription based model that would unlock more features in your car. For example seated heats if you pay 11 or 1299amonth, something like this or remote start things that used to come with the car they were now putting behind a paywall and BMW customers, fans, whatever, even the dealerships, you know, pushed back on it. And so these are people again you could say it's a luxury car, etc who are like we can afford the car, we can afford the 1199. But that's not the point, it's the principle of the matter that there would be anything that's already supposed to be a part of this purchase that we wouldn't have access to. So I think if there was like so called the luxury consumer, the ones that are truly wealthy like you said, not the aspirational ones. I think if they knew how much some of these brands are getting over on them, they would maybe push back, don't you think?

[Lauren Sherman]

I think that a lot of it is, I think it's what the market will bear. A friend of mine sent me a cotton dress that was almost $3,000 and she said this is crazy. And I said well but they've, this particular brand has already walked their prices back. And I said it's what the market will bear. I think that people, it's look, the value of a diamond is bullshit. Like diamonds are not valuable. They we can get a diamond. You can get a diamond anywhere. It's about the value you put around it. I agree with you that like there are things that feel nicer. As someone I don't know as much as you do when I see a product like I can tell something is shitty or good because I've been looking at stuff for a long time but I don't know the details like you do, but I think can they create the value around it to make it feel like it's something you want to own for a long time, think that that's a part or that it's gonna sell on resale, like what's the value? And many of them are no longer communicating the value. And I think that's when you see, you see it on the Internet with the high net worth like vloggers being like the quality of this is bad. And it's like, do you really know? No, you don't. You don't know the difference, but you think you know the difference. So I think, like, yeah, I think people are getting fed up and you're right. But I think that if the brand is able to create a narrative around it that makes it feel worth it no matter what it is, then they'll still succeed. But I think it's getting harder because the stuff isn't nice to look at either.

[Retcho Amandi]

Yeah. Yeah.

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[Retcho Amandi]

I mean, to your point about Cannes, right? Like, these brands have become so powerful and have so much money that even as a movie star, it's like you have to supplement your income from a movie with, like being an ambassador, having a brand deal, you know? And now I feel like some of the, you know, a list celebrities or even newcomers out on the scene, they're kind of like benchmarked by like their brand deals now. Do you know what I mean? It's like that's. It's such an integral part of their profile as an entertainer and celebrity, whether asap Rocky or Iowa Debris or Margot Robbie or what's her name, Alicia Vikander. Like this, she's. I think she's a Louis dealer. Zendaya has a Louis deal. I feel like it's now a part of.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, they both.

[Retcho Amandi]

Yeah, they all have. And I just don't know how you nowadays, it's like, anyway, I'm being redundant, but I'm saying these brains are so powerful. You don't want to not be in bed with them now. It's like that's a huge part of their business.

[Lauren Sherman]

Totally. And it's not going away. It's definitely not going away. I do think that the industry, like, the frustration you feel as a consumer who's highly educated is indicative of. Of the extreme consolidation in the industry. And we are not. It's never like, yes, the industry will grow. Like this year, the industry will grow by 5% or something. It is not gonna be the way it was. It's just not the center of culture the way it was. It's now. It's still the center of commerce. But I think, like, it is going to keep losing equity in terms of the. In the eye of the consumer, because so much of what the consumer consumes is gonna be virtual now. So I think, like, the frustration you're feeling will trickle down in 10 years or 15 years. And so covering this is going to be about covering. Like, I always look at the. Look at Hollywood and that declining industry, and I think fashion is different, but it's headed in a similar. What place? It's. It will never be the exact same pattern because it's different kind of product. But I think that the frustration you feel will trickle down to the masses, and it will result in. It'll result in new things being built. I just did. I have to run soon, but I did want to ask you about this. I just, you know, last week, the big story was that Everlane was being bought by Sheehan. And I just did an interview with Michael Praison, the founder of Everlane, who is launching a new company now in response to Everlane buying Shein. And there's. I have an interview with him in Tuesday's line sheet. But basically, like, he was out of fashion. He was like, I don't want to do this. I remember talking to him once, and he said, look, he was very, I would say, sincere about what he wanted to do with Everlane. It wasn't bullshit. He wanted to make, like, cool basics and do it in a very honest way. I wouldn't say it was, like, super altruistic, but he did want to be honest. And everything that they proposed, they weren't making it up. It wasn't a scam. But I. I remember talking to him. He was like, this is a project. I'm going to do something else. It probably won't have anything to do with fashion. I'm not, like, going to be a serial fashion entrepreneur. I don't want to own a bunch of fashion companies. It's not. Not for me. And I thought, that's interesting because he's. He's like a person that likes. Like, he has taste. He's interested in Fashion and design. And I thought I could see him, you know, being the next Andrew Rosen or something, but he was like, no, that's not for me. And then the response to Sheehan buying Everlane, which he has nothing to do with anymore. He's not on the board. He has no, no control. Inspired him so much that he is like, I want to start something new that's once again affordable and all that stuff, but like really focused on quality and just like good, good pieces. And he's just at the beginning of it, but like, it's interesting. Maybe more stuff like that will come out. I don't know what you thought of all the stuff that went down with Everlane.

[Retcho Amandi]

I mean, I was never a big Everlane fan. I remember someone referring to me, referring to it to me as widget clothing, which was just like really updating.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Retcho Amandi]

A merchandising plan and then reselling it. So I never really considered that fashion. I saw that as like a tech, Tech VC money that like, I saw it like blank street coffee. I don't like really see it as like a brainchild of a great idea as much as I saw it as like a business opportunity. And I guessed, I guess an angle against what they called transparency, but it felt more like a gimmick than it felt like a value system.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, I mean, this was the challenge from the beginning. I think you were right. But that isn't what they wanted to do, if that makes sense. Like all those other people. That, that was the perception. But all those. There were tons of brands at that time. And I think the reason Everlane got further than most of them is because they did want to make. They did like want to have a different value proposition than the other companies and they did want to make nice clothes. It was just that like, that only took them so far. And when you're backed by venture capital and private equity having like good values and making cute box cut tees only doesn't, doesn't work. So it's interesting. It's a, it's been. It was just the irony with the Shein purchase. I never expired when I did the story. Like I never expected it was going to be as big as it was. It was a wild, A wild week for followers of both companies.

[Retcho Amandi]

But yeah, that actually tracks to me for some reason.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, of course.

[Retcho Amandi]

Because it's like seems aligned.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. You have any thoughts on Sheehan?

[Retcho Amandi]

I don't, I don't. Not any thoughts that everybody else doesn't already have, you know.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Retcho Amandi]

It is what it is. I do think a service is a certain demographic of person, but. And I think we talked about this before, too, where it's like, there's a tricky place where, you know, ethics can come up against commerce. But it is what it is, and it exists. And I'm not. I'm not super surprised that they bought Everlane or even that Everlane sold to Sheehan, you know, because there's also, like, the will, you know, the choice of doing it. So I guess that. I guess that makes sense to me. I don't know. It's neither here nor there to me.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, Retro was really fun to catch up, as always.

[Retcho Amandi]

Thank you. Let me just tell your audience before I go that our show, the Cutting room floor, returns June 3rd. We'll be back with more interviews, more in depth, and if they haven't gone to listen to your episode, I recommend they do. That was the last episode we did right before our hiatus began. So if you guys have not listened to my episode with Lauren Sherman, please go listen to it, because it's like a great, I think, almost hour and a half.

[Lauren Sherman]

It was fun.

[Retcho Amandi]

I think people really liked that interview. People really liked the interview. Even some of the team at LV was like, when I went to the show, they're like, we really liked your interview with Lauren. I think people don't get to hear you in that. In that format that often. So that's. That was a pleasure. But anyway, June 3rd. We'll be back, and thank you for having me.

[Lauren Sherman]

Thank you for being here. It was so fun.

[Retcho Amandi]

All right, talk soon. Bye, Lauren.

[Lauren Sherman]

Bye. Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. The show is produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, producer Maya Tribut, and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, Kelly Turner and Bob Tabador.

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