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- [00:00]
Narrator/Commercial Voice
That warm, flattering light of Golden Hour may only last a short time each day, but its effect on style is undeniable.
- [00:09]
Lauren Sherman
This season, Macy's is capturing that same
- [00:11]
Narrator/Commercial Voice
radiant energy and turning it into an everyday look with the Golden Hour Glow trend. Inspired by Mediterranean summers and the soft sunlit tones of sunset, this trend focuses on warm neutrals, vacation ready prints and luminous metallic accents. The goal is to create a look that feels polished, effortless and naturally radiant no matter the time of day. From breezy linen sets that feel both relaxed and refined to gold accented bags, belts and sandals that catch the light beautifully layered jewelry plays a key role as well, especially with pre layered necklace sets that make styling simple. These elements add depth and character, making even the simplest outfits feel elevated to complete the look. A well chosen blazer can enhance that sun kissed effect, adding warmth and luminosity to to the skin for a naturally glowing finish. The result is a style that feels easy, elevated and consistently radiant, capturing the magic of Golden Hour anytime, anywhere. Shop the collection now.
- [01:14]
Disney/Pixar Promo Announcer
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- [01:23]
Luca Lucasolka
You could say that again.
- [01:25]
Disney/Pixar Promo Announcer
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- [01:33]
Lauren Sherman
Now we party.
- [01:35]
UPS Store Promo Announcer
This is incredible.
- [01:37]
Home Depot Promo Announcer
Wow.
- [01:38]
Luca Lucasolka
I am clearing the rest of the day.
- [01:39]
Disney/Pixar Promo Announcer
Disney and Pixar's Hoppers now available on Disney. Rated pg.
- [01:48]
Lauren Sherman
Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet and today with me on the show is Bernstein's Lucasoka. We're talking the best and worst of earnings season from LVMH and Caring to Reshma and Chanel. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I
- [02:14]
Narrator/Commercial Voice
send an email called Line Sheet.
- [02:16]
Lauren Sherman
If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the art world and much more. If you're interested listeners of Fashion People get a discount. Just go to Puck News Fashion People to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday everyone. Hope you're having a great week. It was one of the slowest news weeks I've experienced during my time here at Puck, which Hopefully means that something major will happen soon.
- [03:04]
Narrator/Commercial Voice
But you know, we made the news.
- [03:06]
Lauren Sherman
It's fine. I can always find something on Thursday. I did find something very interesting and thanks to Malik who got a tip and then we investigated it and I shared some updates and changes in strategy over at Loro Piana and Malik had some J.
- [03:24]
Narrator/Commercial Voice
Crew intel.
- [03:25]
Lauren Sherman
But you gotta gotta upgrade to that
- [03:27]
Narrator/Commercial Voice
inner circle membership in order to access this information.
- [03:31]
Lauren Sherman
That's why it's called the Inner circle. Anyway, my question for you is, do you want me to try to figure out the identity of boring.com? it's that anonymous Instagram account making fun of style.com. you know, who is the cheerleader of the fashion industry. But I love because literally, Becca, every single thing that happens, he documents it. It's honestly he's doing WWD's job. So I'm a fan and whatever you think, I'm pro. But boring.com is kind of the. Like they say what everybody else is thinking or maybe no one else is thinking. And to be it's quite honest, it's sometimes almost too honest and sometimes it's
- [04:13]
Narrator/Commercial Voice
just like way too mean.
- [04:15]
Lauren Sherman
And I don't follow it. If it says something important, it surfaces to me. So I don't feel like I need to like have that negative energy all the time. But if I revealed it, like, I don't want to ruin all the fun for everyone, but at the same time
- [04:32]
Narrator/Commercial Voice
sort of my job to ruin the fun.
- [04:34]
Lauren Sherman
So let me know what you think. Also, how great is that W magazine Giselle cover and spread styled by Brian Malloy wearing Celine Shop by Kareem? Sadly, it's so good. I love the shoot. This is what magazines are for, guys. Congrats to Ms. Sarah Moonves for being a good editor. Anyway, I think it's okay to say go Nicks. At this point, many of you were interested in my commentary on the Heim sisters and Taylor Swift's homemade merch and their dance routine video. My only comment was that they are annoying. And I would like to say to the Taylor Swift fans out there, though, like seven of you that still listen to this podcast and hate because I've mentioned her a few times in. In a. I don't want to say negative light, but in a critical light because everybody should be critiqued, especially artists. Anyway, honestly, I would have been fine with this whole thing if it was Taylor Swift and Blake Lively. For some reason, the combo of the two. And I really like him. I went to see them in concert last year. I listened to their music all the time. I think they're cool. I think a lot of Heim's a great actress. There was something about it that was really annoying. And I'm like, I don't want to know what the Heim sisters are going through privately to act like this. Taylor just seemed like she was like, I'm going to do what my cool friends want to do. Someone said, like, perpetually 15. It's so true. Anyway, it was ridiculous, but there's a reason Danielle Heim did not partake in this, and this is because she doesn't need to do stuff like this. It's just. Anyway, back to my day job, and let's get going with Luca Lucasolka. Welcome back to Fashion People.
- [06:16]
Luca Lucasolka
Thank you very much indeed.
- [06:17]
Lauren Sherman
Luca, what did you have for breakfast this morning?
- [06:20]
Luca Lucasolka
A glass of milk and two biscuits.
- [06:23]
Lauren Sherman
That sounds good. I think you're the first person to ever say they had biscuits for breakfast. Because this is a Friday show, not a Tuesday show. Usually you come on on Tuesdays and Fridays we ask people what they have for breakfast.
- [06:39]
Luca Lucasolka
I didn't know that. All right.
- [06:41]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, it's very revealing. How are you doing?
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Luca Lucasolka
Exciting breakfast. But, yeah, very, very sort of light breakfast.
- [06:49]
Lauren Sherman
Sounds good. How are you doing?
- [06:52]
Luca Lucasolka
I'm very well. What about you, Lauren?
- [06:56]
Lauren Sherman
I'm good. I'm in Los Angeles. I'm going to go to the Hermes show tonight.
- [07:01]
Luca Lucasolka
All right.
- [07:03]
Lauren Sherman
And then there's the Zenya show tomorrow, so I am gonna go to both of them.
- [07:09]
Luca Lucasolka
Excellent, excellent.
- [07:12]
Lauren Sherman
What did you think about this quarter and all the results overall?
- [07:19]
Luca Lucasolka
I think that the results continue to be quite polarized, from the very good to the not so very good. We continue to see hot luxury ahead. If we look at the jewelry Maisons at Richemont at plus 16%, that was a very punchy result considering that the Middle east was disrupted in the month of March, while some of the soft luxury companies were still very significantly behind. I'm thinking Gucci, but even the leaders there. If I look at the functional leather goods division of LVMH at minus 2 and Hermes at plus 5.7%, that was a lot less exciting than what you could find from Richemont. So really quite a significant dispersion.
- [08:15]
Lauren Sherman
Before we get into. I want to go company by company. I. And this is going to run probably the second week in June. Never say never guarantee, Luca, because stuff happens and then we move the schedule around. But I am. This is. We're recording this on June 4th, and I'm getting reports from London about. There are lines out the door of Chanel for the Metier Dart collection. There are people who had chairs and they're claiming they slept outside waiting to get in. What do you think? Like, we saw the Chanel results from last year. I'm very skeptical that those results have anything to do with Matu Blasi's first collection being well received in the market. I think that the product in Chanel stores was good no matter what, and there's good feelings towards the brand. But next year the numbers are obviously going to be really good. Do you think that the success of Chanel, like, what they talk about internally, from what I've been told, is that, like, this is good for the whole luxury industry. A rising tide raises all ships. And not to, like, get too excited, but I think this is a singular thing that has nothing to do with the rest of the luxury industry. I'm just curious what you think about the, like, really staggering success of these first collections from. From Mattu.
- [09:47]
Luca Lucasolka
I think, Lauren, we're confronting a market, a consumer demand environment which is a lot more stagnant in terms of the people present in the market. It used to be a few years ago that we had a huge inflow of new consumers coming in. And so you could, to, to a larger extent, sell more of the same. You could sell the iconic products. I think if the game becomes part of selling more and more to existing consumers who've been in the market for a while, then newness becomes essential. Why do I need to part with my money if you are showing the same stuff that I already have in my wardrobe, except it's 50% or 100% more expensive? And so to some extent, I think what we saw last year in terms of new creative directors coming on board of the major brands is indispensable. The problem is this is not an exact science. Finding the right talent for the right brand is an art and sometimes it works very well and it generates a huge amount of buzz and a huge traffic in store, like in the case of Chanel. And sometimes it doesn't work as well, especially if there's no good match between the brand DNA and what the new creative talent brings to the brand. And I think that we're confronting this sort of very broad set of outcomes at the moment within the soft luxury space. One could argue that Mathieu Blaisey and chanel are a 10 out of 10. Maybe deorr is and Jonathan Anderson are a 7 or 8 out of 10. I think that everybody else that we saw, with a very few exceptions in September And October last year was below this tool.
- [11:54]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because when you think about the tremendous amount of criticism and dissecting of Jonathan Anderson's work at Dior already, and the step by step the minutiae of critical analysis of what he has done and downright criticism, I mean, it is kind of crazy if you think about what he has achieved. And if Chanel didn't exist, would the sort of sentiment in the industry and the stress around the Dior stuff be less so? Because it wouldn't. There would be nothing to compare it against. And I think Jonathan's kind of remit at Dior is much more challenging than what Mattieu had. It's a different kind of challenge. Like Chanel was not in the difficult place that Dior was. But it's interesting to hear you say that you think it was that. I agree with you. I think he's done a really good job, given the circumstances especially. But why do you think the market and the kind of online. Because I know you track the online conversation a lot has been so much more critical of Dior than really any of the other brands. Even Gucci.
- [13:28]
Luca Lucasolka
I would say it's difficult to say clearly, maybe my own impression. For what is worse, when I look at Chanel, I see that what the brand is bringing to the market is both very commercially astute, but also quite true to the brand's DNA and heritage. So there's a very good fit, both with the market and with the brand. I think that when it works a bit less or when it doesn't work at all, the fit is not there. So without necessarily going to the existing examples, but one sort of paradigmatic example of a lack of fit was Salvato di Sano and Gucci. And I think that there, in hindsight, but even just immediately after the fact, you could see that a quite luxury style didn't fit what Gucci is in the minds of people, which is an over the top kind of brand with an edge, with a twist. And that didn't work well because there was no connection. So I think that maybe when I look at Jonathan's work today, I see that it's very commercially astute. But maybe the purists, those who really know about fashion, like me, like you, maybe they don't necessarily see the new Dior soul. They don't see the depth that they would want to see. I wonder about that. But maybe that is, maybe, maybe that is the issue. Having said that, you know, even if I compare Maria Grazia, she also had a very special way of interpreting the brand. So I think we are borderline in an artistic territory, which is very, very difficult to gauge. I think that for practical purposes, we would be looking at the commercial traction that these new interpretations produce. And the feedback we're getting from the market is that Joy is doing fine and is doing a lot better across the world.
- [15:55]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [15:55]
Luca Lucasolka
So good enough for me.
- [15:57]
Lauren Sherman
Yes. It's interesting. I'll get. So I think, honestly, from the fashion purist perspective, I actually think the challenge is that a. It's a hard brand, no matter what. It doesn't have the depth that Chanel has as a brand. But I actually think he's such a thinker. It's so intellectual that I appreciate it. The first collection, I was like, I don't like. I love the men's. The women's, I was like, I don't like this. It's too hard. It's not pretty enough. And he's taken that feedback because other people have obviously given it to him. And the clothes have gotten more beautiful. But there's still something. There's, like, an idea behind it. And I think in the. I think the marketing has been really good. I think the challenge is at Loewe. You could have an idea and develop it over. You know, he didn't really break through at Loewe for. For several years in terms of Runway. And when you're that kind of designer, Dior is such a straightforward brand. And Kim Jones and Maria Grazia were very straightforward designers. Kim, I was at the Dior outlet in Bicester Village the other day, and there were these bags that had, like, puffy paint on them in the men's that said, all my friends wear Dior. Like, can you imagine? Jonathan Anderson would never do that. He's too smart. Like, not that they're too brainy. That's the right word. And I think he's doing a good job of commercializing it. And the last. The Cruise collection was super commercial, and he got a lot of bad critical feedback for it, which I think is so interesting because it felt. And what I. I'm in LA right now, and what a lot of people said to me was, like, it felt like it had the same spirit or the same. Like, it's the kind of stuff people want to wear right now. There was definitely stuff that had. Was in conversation with what Matthew's doing at Chanel, but it was cooler. So if you're. If you're, like, too cool to wear Chanel, you would wear the Dior and I think, I think from the Asia market, it seems like it's good. But yeah, it's a very funny thing that there are other creative director positions that have been appointments that I feel like are more Sabato style where you're just like, this is never gonna work and you guys need to change it now. Like. But I remember being on a call with you and one of your colleagues saying that the Chinese market was not into Sabato and it was never going to work. And I was like, oh, maybe it'll work. If it's not going to work, it's not going to work. Right?
- [18:54]
Luca Lucasolka
Exactly. I don't know that the rule that you have to wait for two or three shows still applies today. I think if it doesn't work the first show, I think chances are it's not going to work. And that's it. That's it. What I think I'm learning from the Chanel experience is that things are happening at a much faster pace these days. From catwalk to store to social media, it's become very, very short. And so either it snowballs and it becomes a success and it becomes hot, or if it doesn't, I don't know that going at it a second time, unless you really change quite a significant amount of things is necessarily going to give you a different outcome, if you see what I mean.
- [19:50]
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- [20:21]
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- [20:53]
Lauren Sherman
That's a good segue into Demna and Caring and Gucci. And let's start, start with them. I have a piece actually running today on some changes at Caring Again. This is going to run Like a week later. But you all should check it out. It was Thursday, June 4th. Gucci is an interesting one. And I don't know if you saw in the cut, Kathy Horan mentioned this and I had also heard this, that after talking to you at the Capital Markets Day, Demna was incredibly inspired because you, you said something to him about like, what's your silhouette, what's your going to be, your signature? And he wrote a memo to his team, he was so inspired by you. And I, I confirmed this, I confirmed this. And Kathy, Kathy already wrote about it. I was like holding it for something. But I, I know that, that he has shared this with people. So I'm just curious, like, what do you think after the Capital markets day, after they're finally hiring executives, all that stuff is in the works. Like Gucci has. Demna's had two Runway shows now. The, it seemed like the New York show was pretty well received. The first, I thought, I, I think generally it's been like all pretty well received and he has a lot of goodwill in the, the market, but it's like not sure if it's going to be right. What do you see after seeing, after hearing Luca Deo talk for three hours, what do you think's going to happen there?
- [22:37]
Luca Lucasolka
My impression is that there was a lot of talk in Florence about optimization, about organization, about processes, functions and so on. But what I think I didn't get from that Capital Market Day is a clear idea where Gucci fits today in the social debate, in the cultural debate, and why the Gucci values become relevant again and excite consumers because nobody is going to a store in our industry to seek a functional benefit. I don't go to buy a coat from Gucci because I'm cold or I don't buy shoes because then they're foot. What I want to find is something that resonates in the current zeitgeist that gives me the sort of the urge to belong and to sort of look like that and be like that. And I'm not sure that it's yet clear what Gucci has to mean. I think that in the 90s, it was very clear where Tom Ford was taking it. He was embracing the power Sacks revolution. It was sort of very much in your face. Then Alessandro, 10 years ago, so was embracing the LGBTQ drive to set the aesthetics agenda, gender fluidity and so on. Those were really very important points in the cultural debate at that time. What is the Gucci stands for? What is Gucci's meaning today? And I think to Some extent, this is what Demna has to come up with. And I think he was telling me that during this conversation in Florence that he's working on the idea of confident and flirty. But he was also saying that he's at the beginning of this exercise that La Familia was more than anything an exercise that he had carried out for himself to understand the brand in greater depth. So I think it's still working to be fair and maybe, again, contradicting the point that I was making before, maybe it's going to take a bit more time to come up with a clearer and sharper idea what Gucci stands for. Because, you know, you can cut costs until the cows come home, but the share price is only going to sustain where it is and move forward. If you start to see Gucci growing the top line. And at the moment, I don't know that this is a guarantee that we will have it in 26. Really?
- [25:37]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. It's interesting. I've heard from people inside caring that they are going long on this and they're going to invest, which is kind of the antithesis of what he. Demayo was saying. The whole thing was basically like, if you. He made a comment, I quoted it. He used some, like, extremely aggressive word that was basically like, if you don't perform, I'll cut you. I forget what it was, but essentially what I've heard is that they're going long and they're investing and they believe in it. And also that. And I mean, he said this to shareholders last week, that it's encouraging. I think in the US in particular, the thing that he is really good at is I think he really. He has a really good handbag understanding and the team around him there is really, really good. And Becky Malinski was on the podcast earlier this week and she said when she went to the Re see for. For the cruise show, that the bags just looked amazing. And I think it's interesting. It's the first time I, as a consumer have ever been interested in his clothes. For me, like, I've been interested in them because I think he's brilliant and smart and I like looking at them. I like seeing people in them, but they were never my style. Whereas his sort of meditation on the Tom Ford stuff, I really like it. But I think you're right that it's still not clear what it. And also he. This is the first designer they've had, or I mean, successful designer they've had, like truly successful, that we knew them before. So it was like with Tom Ford and Alessandro, those were brand new ideas for people. They had never seen them, whereas we know what Demna stands for. So when I'm looking at the skirt list here and the dem, it's like I see the demna in a lot of it. And that's complicated for Gucci because you want, like you said, you want something. Newness. Gucci is about newness, that there. And so that's the tricky thing is like, how do you make something look new when everybody's already familiar with you.
- [28:05]
Luca Lucasolka
Yes. And I think that, you know, if you say that the bags have improved significantly, that is going to be a great piece of news, because my impression is that going to the stores today gives you a feeling that not very much has changed. Primarily because the bags look similar to what Gucci had before, I think, and the accessories in general. I thought that at least from what the feedback I received on what we saw in February, the feedback was a lot better for the fashion than it was for the shoes or for the handbags. And if those improve, then I think that Gucci has more of a reason why to potentially recover.
- [28:55]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, well, good luck to them. Do you think? I know Gucci is Kering and Kering is Gucci. When you look at the results, though, are you also looking at what happens with Saint Laurent and Bottega and how important is it that those brands are growing? Do you think that those brands have potential to be much bigger than they are?
- [29:19]
Luca Lucasolka
I think Bottega for sure has the ability to move further. I think that I don't know that Bottega is necessarily going to be very relevant in fashion. I think that in leather goods it could be even more on the front foot. I added at a sense that this idea of sort of making the stores bigger in order to have fashion in them was again, a bit of a cookie cutter approach that maybe works at Gucci, but doesn't necessarily work in a specialist brand like bottega, which is 95% leather goods and will likely stay that way going forward. So the bigger the stores, the more absolutive they become. I wonder if they should just have more exquisite and better bags. That's my layman's viewpoint on Bottega Veneta. In the meantime, they managed to lose two great designers, Danieli and Mathieu Blaisy. So, you know, there's work to do there. And the CEO as well has gone.
- [30:38]
Lauren Sherman
Well, I believe that that will be announced soon, if it already hasn't been.
- [30:42]
Luca Lucasolka
Yes.
- [30:44]
Lauren Sherman
So if by the time this airs, I don't want to jinx anything, but I'm pretty sure that they made that decision and it's coming out soon.
- [30:55]
Luca Lucasolka
I would expect. I think that the whole senior management, as we could tell from the airtime in Florence, is and must be in transition. I think Luca spoke three and a half hours and gave very little airtime to his team, probably for a reason. So we saw the appointment of a new CEO and Alexander McQueen. I think that there's going to be further adjustments to the senior management there. And I don't think that again, Romos had built in a day. These smaller brands are definitely important because they're not so small. I don't know that they will ever break into the premier League, that they will ever become mega brands. But if they continue to grow, they can definitely help at a time when Gucci is yet in the process of finding its way.
- [31:48]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, okay, we could talk about caring for this whole time, but let's move on to lvmh and we kind of dug into the Dior of it all. What else do you think about what's happening there? I've heard like market intel that Celine is starting to pick up. It took a minute, but that it's starting to work. What do you think is obviously Louis Vuitton and its success is the most important element of all of this. How do you think the next three three quarters are going to be for lvmh?
- [32:25]
Luca Lucasolka
I think that we should see a continuing progression LVMH in terms of organic growth in the fashion, the goods division. I thought that the minus two in the first quarter was already quite a good number because there were the Takashi Murakami comparables in the first quarter. And there was also the one off impact of the Middle east which we expected to be a lot more muted in the second quarter. So I would definitely be expecting that in the next three quarters organic growth in fashion, leather goods turns positive. And that would be a very important signal to indicate that, you know, it's not the end of the world. Luxury goods will continue to stay relevant and investors and the market have been reasonably and understandably distracted by what has been going on in tech. Goodness me. These stocks are skyrocketing and so there was not a lot of love left for the luxury goods sector. But if we start to see an inflection in organic growth and if we see it in the largest company, then this, I think could potentially be a trigger for renewed interest from investors. And I believe that when it comes to Vuitton, there's very little not to like if we tone in your work and if there's no Takashi Murakami in the comps. I think that organic growth in the positive is really within reach and I expect that there's going to be more contributors. Loro Piano, as far as I understand, continues to do extremely well. What you say about Celine, Definitely Celine would be in the top five brands in this division. So this could definitely also help.
- [34:30]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. And I think Fendi, I heard that there were like 7,000 signups new new consumer emails when she joined. So that is positive. That doesn't sound like a lot, but it's a lot, right? Just like news. Yeah.
- [34:47]
Luca Lucasolka
Or a brand like that. Indeed.
- [34:50]
Lauren Sherman
The question for me on Vuitton, for you, I know that the ship is doing well in Shanghai. Everyone loves the ship.
- [34:58]
Luca Lucasolka
Yeah.
- [35:00]
Lauren Sherman
Both of those collections don't get are not well received in the market. So the Nicola guess gear it's every season more Jessica. Sorry, I always forget you can I guess you can pronounce it either way. But Delphine Arnault says Jess scare. So that's what I'm going to say. But every season there's more speculation. I think his contract is up next year regardless of like that his time is up. And also no one wears the clothes. Why? Why are they doing this? Of course no one wears. I mean people. There are billions of dollars in in women's ready to wear in that business. They're wearing something. Whether they're wearing the Runway clothes, I don't know. But Pharrell, obviously pop culture icon. The collections are kind of like no one really has an opinion about them. It's not in the conversation really in terms of influencing other designers or being exciting. Does that just not matter for Vuitton? Because it's not that kind of brand. It's a leather goods brand or why is it. Why is it so important that Jonathan Anderson is good and is well liked is a better way to say it than Nicola Jeskier being well liked.
- [36:20]
Luca Lucasolka
I think that to some extent this can be explained because Louis Vuitton is less exposed to fashion. Having said that, I think Vuitton is definitely exposed to the need to be exciting to get the center stage, especially at a time when the global middle class is on the back foot. And I think that if we want to be honest, there's a lot of middle class consumers in the Vuitton brand. The fact that Vuitton is in a strong position to some extent is a great testament to the good job that management is doing with this brand. To keeping it at the center of the debate, making it top of mind to consumers, especially in China. As you say, the ship has been a home run, an incredible success. Having said that, I'm not sure, as you say, that the two creative directors who should be more than anything else contributing to the buzz for the brand, unnecessarily doing what one would ideally hope. I don't know that maybe you mentioned Nicolas, but I don't know that maybe even Pharrell, who seemed a bit like a like for, like, replacement of Virgil Abloh at a time when maybe the market was already elsewhere. It's a fact that streetwear has significantly faded after a huge success 10 or so years ago. And I don't know that with streetwear, you're necessarily going places these days. I don't know what differently you could have, but I wonder if there could be a bit more that the two creative directors do to put Vuitton at the center of the scene. If you think about it, today, Vuitton is at the center of the scene for reasons other than the creative directors. Because they do fantastic stores, because they're very clever in grabbing people's attention with temporary stores like the one in Shanghai because of the stack of trunks in New York, because of the hotel in Paris, but not necessarily because their fashion is creating a huge sensation. I mean, it's the other way around, in my understanding. It's that these creative directors are getting a lot of visibility because they're at Vuitton and not vice versa. They're not giving great visibility to Vuitton. So there's an opportunity there to. To do a bit more.
- [39:26]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, I think on. On the Pharrell piece, I think it was a misjudgment that it. That they were a like for, like, when the reality is Virgil was cool. Pharrell is not cool in the same way that Virgil was cool. Like, Pharrell is mass market and it's fine. Like, it was an evolution. And what they actually need, there is a cool designer who will bring a different group of people. Like, Pharrell was a reference for Virgil. Pharrell wearing Louis Vuitton was a reference for Virgil. Pharrell is like, almost too mass market because it's such a mass market brand. Like, what is the. There's no tension. There's no reason to look at it because there's nothing new. There's nothing interesting about it. And I think the one thing about Pharrell that's interesting because he's a creative director across a lot of different mediums. And he is so prolific. I think he'll try to make it work and he'll keep tweaking to try to make it relevant and make it feel interesting. But in the end, they probably should have hired someone who, honestly, my whole thing is that they should have just given that to Jonathan, the whole thing to Jonathan Anderson. Like, that would have been really, really great. But I bet my. My instinct is that. That they'll give Pharrell a little more time. I think with Nicola, who is one of the most influential designers in the whole world, and the first couple collections that he did there 15 years ago or 10 years ago or whatever were very influential. It just somehow got too lost in the shuffle and less about real life. And I think the challenge is, who do you put in there who can handle that kind of level of business and who also can, other than Jonathan Anderson, who can handle that kind of level of business, understands that it's a business, but who also is, like, really creative and has a big imagination? And I think that's the hard part is like, yes, they should replace them, but with who? Like, even if they're going to keep it separate between the men's and women's, I can't think of anyone other than, like, them. Phoebe Filo, who would never want to do it.
- [42:09]
Luca Lucasolka
No. But to. To some extent, I think we've been nicely surprised by new talent coming up from behind and rising to stardom and to very effective contributions overnight. I think a. About Peter Mullier or I think about Mathieu Blasey, who seemed a sort of backup, sort of Daniel Lee leaving. And in fact, he has reason to being a major star. So I would say as Avimic carries out this prize and hands out this prize for the new creative talent every year, they should have probably the best possible vantage point to find a new ballot that could potentially make a difference.
- [43:05]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, yeah.
- [43:06]
Luca Lucasolka
You would probably need someone who is not very famous, but who is a very good fit between the market and the brand in a way, which I think is the name of the game. When you. When you bring in a new creative director, you need to make sure that you basically have a bridge between what your brand is known for and where it could credibly and effectively play in the market at this stage. And I think that is the art.
- [43:36]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. So good. So good. So good.
- [43:43]
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- [44:34]
Lauren Sherman
Okay, let's talk Richemont really quickly. Yes, it's just all about hard luxury. Is that the answer is that this is where if you want to make money for the next 10 years in the luxury industry, you need to be selling diamonds. Like what? Why is it doing so well?
- [44:51]
Luca Lucasolka
Non diamonds I would say. But for sure our jewelry one of there's two reasons why they're doing or three I should say where they're doing well. First, despite the efforts by lvmh, Cartier and frankly Van Appels continue to dominate the jewelry category. Second, the market is polarizing. Our society is polarizing. We have a K shaped economy and with jewelry you have impossibly high prices to get the interest of multi billionaires. One of a kind royalty grade high jewelry pieces that cost $50 million. But you also have the two or three or $4,000 pieces and the Cartier watches that look an incredible bargain to middle class consumers today. Who to buy a bag in an equivalent top brand range they would need to spend north of 5,000. I mean Cartier you could argue is the most revered brand in jewelry. If you want to buy the bag from Chanel or if you want to buy it from Hermes or Dior with on, then you know you need to spend a lot more. So to some extent I think jewelry has become a lot cheaper and it works well at the extremes. We have a bifurcating market and I think Richemont can work well at the extreme and it's most flexible to play with the very rich and with the aspirational consumers. And by contrast I think the soft luxury brands have lost a lot of of the aspirational consumers and these consumers are going elsewhere. I think that look at Inditex, I think that some of them are going straight to Zara, some of them are going to Polo, some of them are going to coach. The global middle class is under pressure everywhere in America, in China and likely it's also going to be even more under pressure going forward because of artificial intelligence producing a negative impact on the way collar working class. If the outcome of artificial intelligence implementation is downward pressure on the white collar working class salaries or even worse, if it's higher unemployment in that cohort, then playing the middle class is going to be more difficult and you will have to be tooled up to be playing at the extremes.
- [47:32]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, we still don't really care about their fashion division, right?
- [47:38]
Luca Lucasolka
No. The way it looks at the moment, it looks a bit like it's not that it's bad. I think that there are some very good things that are working very well. Like Peter Millar. Some brands have lots of potential, like Chloe. Alaya has been doing incredibly well under Peter Mullier. The problem is they're not at scale and so every time they come up with a hit, somebody bigger comes by and poaches talent away. This time it was Prada group getting fitter mulier for Versace. It's a bit frustrating. Years ago it was Phoebe Filo going to Celine. It's a bit frustrating. If you are in that position, you do good things but then the lasting effect and the continuity is not there.
- [48:30]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, I wore a Chloe era Phoebe Filo jacket to the Hermes show last night. Still that good? Okay, final Hermes.
- [48:40]
Luca Lucasolka
Well, I wonder if there's a few things going on there. First of all, if we go back to this idea that we have a more static consumer audience, you may want to accelerate the rate of innovation and be a bit more on your front foot. More of the same in this kind of environment is not going to work. It's clear that Hermes suffered a disappointing first quarter on the back of one offs. For example, the Middle Eastern impact, for example, the slower ramping up of leather goods capacity. But I also think that there's an element of traffic going to peers. Our analysis is indicating that in China, Dior and Chanel are experiencing triple digits traffic increases while Hermes is suffering double digit traffic declines. And I think the reason is quite clear. If your direct competitors have something new to show, chances are your potential clients will go there to check them out. Maybe they will not buy, but for sure they will not come to your store as the first port of call. And that is to some extent inconvenient. So Hermes will have a lot of new things to show. Except they're in 27. So the couture, the new menswear creative director, they all come in 27. And between now and 27, I don't know. There's going to be a lot to write home about. Really?
- [50:28]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, it's interesting and maybe I, I'm, I'm going to, again, it's Thursday. We're going to, we're going to run this probably on the 12th of June, June. But two things. One is I think that the grace is more of a Grace. Wells Bonner, the new menswear designer, has a really good sense of how to make products I don't want. I was talking about this with someone at the Hermes welcome dinner last night. Like hype products, like her Adidas sneakers or whatever, like people want them. She knows how to make something that proliferates and I think Nadej does as well in the accessories that she chooses to use on the Runway, like the cowboy boots and the way the newer bags and things like that. I think the challenge with Hermes, which is also the strength is because every single store director is the buyer for the store. They buy for their clients. They do not buy for newness because they buy for existing clients. So like what I have said to them, I've probably said this on the podcast many times and maybe I'll write it tonight. I don't know. I need to see this collection. I think they should have like a pop up shop that's just the women's universe and so you could go in and get the fat, the real fashion, all of it. Because I think what Nadej does is really cool. And I think that the prices for Hermes clothing are actually obviously not reasonable, but it's really well priced in the current market. When you look at a leather jacket for me versus one from St. Laurent, sometimes the St. Laurent one is more expensive and Hermes is Hermes. And so I think if there was
- [52:22]
Luca Lucasolka
a way that is also an issue. I think, I think, you know, in this polarized market with the rich getting richer, the fact that you sort of stay behind isn't necessarily interesting. The most appropriate strategy, the brand equity of Messaz is second to none. The feedback we get from the VIP clients is mixed and maybe that is because they have yet to stretch the brand higher. Everywhere I look, if I look at apparel, if I look at shoes, if I look at jewelry, Chanel is more expensive than Hermes. Is that really appropriate for Hermes to be trading? I don't think so. I think that they could have a higher end offer. I don't know that they would need to move up their offer, but they could have a higher end offer. That would be the best of the best of the best. But the rich people could buy and be happy with and at the moment I don't know that they're doing necessarily such a good job at that. But to be fair, they're about to launch high jewelry, they're about to launch the couture. So to some extent they've already noticed and they've already worked to try and get into that space. If they do, I think there's a lot of potential for them.
- [53:49]
Lauren Sherman
It's the best example of like a family run or family and family controlled business that does things more slowly than other companies because they can afford to. It's funny because for years they would say our pricing isn't marketing and no one believed them. But in the end it was true. Like it's not. They do not use, I mean, I guess it's kind of a reverse psychology marketing now, but for a long time they would say our pricing is not marketing, it's based on cost of raw materials, cost of doing business. Essentially we're not going to raise prices or raise prices. And now that seems to actually be true. I mean, I always pretty much believe them, but I think that's an interesting point. And also the fact that they're doing, the fact that they're doing couture, the fact that they have celebrities at their fashion shows now, like this is stuff that they didn't do before. And so it is changing, it's just more slowly than other. But it's an interesting time for them in the market because here, here's my last question for you. I, and I've probably asked you this a million times, but do you think that the market is just inevitably changed and we'll never see the sort of crazy growth that we saw in 23, 24? Because to me it feels like that was sort of the peak of the it being at the center of culture to buy this stuff.
- [55:24]
Luca Lucasolka
I think there was also a big sigh of collective relief getting out of the pandemic and people wanted to enjoy life and had some savings on the side. So we had a very significantly higher willingness to spend. I think that to be fair, the answer depends on the predicament of the global middle class. If the White House will continue in the future to turn the clock back on globalization, that is going to be bad for the global middle class because inflation is increasing fast in America, reducing discretionary spend capacity and at the same time eventually having a negative effect on the growth of overseas economies. And the other big impact is the artificial intelligence. If that will compound the impact on the middle class, then we think that a K shaped market is not going to sustain what we've seen in the past 35 years. If we think about it, the past 35 years have been for luxury goods have been a play on the rise of the global middle class. In the most recent 10 years, there's been a lot more focus on VIPs. But a big industry like ours is not going to sustain just on VIPs. Let's make no mistake. No brand that we have mentioned, including Hermes, is going to sustain just on VIPs. Maybe Ferrari will sustain only on VIPs. Maybe Z and Loro, Piano and Cucinelli. But the big brands need a middle class revival. Will it come from China? Will it come from the depth of the us? But it has to come from somewhere. If it doesn't come, then I think luxury will have slower growth. But we will definitely have more social and political problems than we've seen so far, that's for sure.
- [57:40]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. Luca, always a pleasure. I'll see you next quarter.
- [57:45]
Luca Lucasolka
Lauren, thank you very much indeed. It was great to see you and have this discussion together. Have a very good rest of the day.
- [57:52]
Lauren Sherman
You too. Happy Summer.
- [57:54]
Luca Lucasolka
Thank you.
- [57:56]
Lauren Sherman
Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. The show is produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, producer Maya Tribbett and director of Editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, Kelly Turner and Bob Tabador.
- [58:21]
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