The Legacy of Valentino Garavani, the Great Prada Men’s Show, and Fashionable Sex

Summary

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Fashion People – Episode Summary

Episode Title: The Legacy of Valentino Garavani, the Great Prada Men’s Show, and Fashionable Sex
Release Date: January 20, 2026
Host: Lauren Sherman
Guest: Isabella Burley, founder of Climax Books

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Episode Overview

In this rich and fast-moving episode, Lauren Sherman welcomes Isabella Burley to dissect the hottest currents in the fashion world – the passing of legend Valentino Garavani, standout moments from the Milan men’s shows, particularly Prada, the shifting status of couture, and the evolving conversation around sex in culture and fashion retail. Isabella also opens up about building Climax Books, the brand’s unique approach to physical retail, and the interplay between curation, sex, and style. The show’s tone is chatty, insightful, irreverent, and always inside-track.

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Key Topics and Insights

1. Milan Men’s Fashion Shows: Decline and Highlights

[07:11–12:54]

• Dolce & Gabbana Controversy:

  • Isabella points out the obvious yet disheartening lack of diversity at the Dolce show:

    “Only white people in the Dolce show… they’re totally aware of what they’re doing” (07:23 – Isabella).

  • Lauren and Isabella discuss the ethics and business of giving controversy so much air.

• Milan’s Shrinking Relevance:

  • Lauren laments the reduced number of shows, especially with London’s men’s week now defunct.

    “The fact that London doesn't even exist anymore… it used to historically start with London menswear, and that didn’t happen” (09:22 – Isabella).

• Prada Steals the Scene:

  • Prada’s show is universally praised for its creativity and substance.

    “I loved it. I’m never jealous of missing a fashion show at this point... but that one, I was jealous.” (10:48 – Lauren)

  • Both speakers relish the “intellectual,” “nuanced,” and “generous” spirit of Prada’s designers, Raf Simons and Miuccia Prada.

    “If you lick layers away, you reveal beauty.” (14:13 – Lauren quoting Raf Simons, citing Prada’s philosophy)

2. The Death of Valentino Garavani: Marking the End of an Era

[15:20–19:14]

• The news of Valentino Garavani’s death breaks live during the episode, providing a raw and authentic reaction.

  “Oh my God. Valentino just died. Wow.” (15:20 – Lauren)

• Reflection on Valentino’s legacy:

  • Retired relatively early but remained influential—a model unlike many contemporaries who worked into their last days.
  • Impact on modern dressmaking, especially in Italy’s ready-to-wear scene of the 1970s and 80s.

    “He was one of the last designers to… build a brand before the conglomerates existed and all of that” (18:27 – Lauren)

• Anticipation regarding Valentino’s upcoming couture show and whether it will become a tribute.

3. Couture & the Future: New Creative Directions

[19:39–23:43]

• Anticipation for new directions as Jonathan Anderson and Matthieu Blazy (the “class of 2025”) take on big couture houses.
• Questioning how “modern” designers will leverage the old-world traditions of couture for contemporary meaning.

  “How does that become part of a bigger kind of brand message? It’s really interesting.” (23:12 – Isabella)

• Discussion of designers incorporating daywear and accessible elements (e.g., jeans) into couture, blurring high/low fashion.

4. The Legacy of Stylists: Remembering Melanie Ward

[23:43–32:57]

• The new Perfect zine honoring stylist Melanie Ward’s radical, future-facing work.

• Lack of widespread recognition for stylists despite massive behind-the-scenes influence.

  “It never really happens with stylists… the impact Melanie Ward had on fashion, on designers, on photographers… is so influential but can go unrecognized.” (27:00 – Isabella)

• The difference between today’s “full look culture” (commercially driven) and the experimental, youthful editorial freedom of the 1990s.

• Emotional resonance in the community’s reactions to Melanie Ward’s passing.

  “This felt really, like, affecting in many ways, because I think her work and also the spirit… shaped the kind of, like, history of fashion.” (30:00 – Isabella)

• A memorable quote from Kate Moss, reflecting the audacious spirit of earlier fashion eras:

  “Corinne Day and Melanie used to say to her, like, ‘Come on, we’re gonna change fashion today.’ And the thing is, that’s the attitude people need to have.” (30:40 – Lauren quoting Kate Moss)

5. Sex in Contemporary Fashion and Culture: Climax Books

[32:57–38:47]

• Isabella traces the seeds of Climax Books to a lockdown passion project:

  “It really started as… my personal archive… building a kind of, like, online world… with no expectations whatever, that it would turn into anything physical.” (33:16 – Isabella)

• Physical stores in London and New York offer a curated, tactile, community-building approach, with “gallery-like” presentation but playful, subversive notes.

• On sexuality in brand identity:

  “The name is Climax. It’s such a kind of confronting name. But then all of the branding and the website is almost quite cold and gallery-like… We’re constantly kind of challenging people.” (37:26 – Isabella)

• Commentary on the “sexlessness” of current culture and how Climax reflects/addresses that—a balance of provocation and comfort.

6. The Business & Aesthetics of Climax: Bags, Merch, and Retail Philosophy

[39:10–45:05]

• Detailed discussion of Climax’s famed shopping bag and latex bag—both design statements and tools for branding and experience.

  “It’s this kind of gloss, stiff envelope that feels really luxe… the opposite of most bookstore bags… almost like luxury fashion packaging.” (41:23 – Isabella)

• Approach to “merch”:

  “We like to use the term ‘wearables’… not throwaway… we spend like six months getting the perfect hoodie shape.” (43:51 – Isabella)

• Merch as a key business driver, not just a marketing afterthought.

• Teases of a major, confidential collaboration launching later in 2026.

7. The Return to Physical Media and Cultural Ephemera

[45:05–50:11]

• The allure of collectible books, invites, and cultural objects in a digital era:

  “For most creative people, books totally change your life… there’s an interest and curiosity for something that isn’t just imagery online, being regurgitated.” (46:16 – Isabella)

• Adding context and “snippets of history” is vital to the brand’s educational mission.

• The power of physical items (invitations, flyers, club pamphlets) to anchor cultural histories and inspire new creativity.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Prada’s show and creative leadership:

  “I think for me, Prada also represents something that feels… nuanced and surprising and intellectual… you’re constantly uncovering elements of it.”
  — Isabella, [12:54]

• On Raf Simons’ contemplative approach:

  “If you lick layers away, you reveal beauty.”
  — Raf Simons via Lauren, [14:13]

• On legacy and transition:

  “He was one of the last designers to… build a brand before the conglomerates existed…”
  — Lauren, [18:27]

• Reflecting on the impact of stylists:

  “It never really happens with stylists… the impact Melanie Ward had on fashion, on designers, on photographers… is so influential but can go unrecognized.”
  — Isabella, [27:00]

• On the changing attitude in fashion:

  “Corinne Day and Melanie used to say to her, like, ‘Come on, we’re gonna change fashion today.’ And the thing is, that’s the attitude people need to have.”
  — Lauren quoting Kate Moss, [30:40]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [07:11] – Milan men’s fashion week, Dolce & Gabbana controversy
• [10:48] – The standout strength of Prada’s show
• [15:20] – Valentino Garavani’s death breaks on-air
• [18:27] – Reflection on Valentino’s legacy
• [19:39] – Upcoming couture shows and new creative directors
• [23:43] – Remembering Melanie Ward and the stylist’s legacy
• [32:57] – Climax Books: genesis, philosophy, and physical retail
• [37:26] – Sex, provocation, and cultural trends in retail
• [41:23] – Design and symbolic power of Climax’s shopping bag
• [43:51] – Merch (wearables) as a brand pillar
• [46:16] – Collecting books, ephemera, and the value of physical culture

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Closing Thoughts

This episode captures a mood of transition—industry legends passing, new creative directions emerging, and a community rethinking what inspires, excites, and endures in fashion. Through honest dialogue, Lauren and Isabella explore how brands, people, and physical objects can be both provocative and deeply meaningful, even as the culture around them shifts.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[A]

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[A]

Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo line sheet and today with me on the show is Isabella Burley, founder of Climax Books. We discuss the late Valentino Garavani, the men's shows in Milan, the state of couture and sex in Fash. Happy Tuesday everyone. I hope you're having a great week. This week in Line Sheet I do a temp check on the class of 2025. Yes, we are three weeks into January and you can already make comments and observations and judgments on what's happening with all those designer debuts. Sara Shapiro looks at into the affiliate marketing platform. Like to know it. Many of you might be familiar with Amber Venn's box. She was like a big famous star in the early 2000 and tens and and Sarah checked in with her. It's it's an interesting story given that there's so much competition in affiliate marketing now. Rachel Strugatz has a real Whopper for Wednesday. I'm keeping this short because my kid is bothering me, and I want to get you to the conversation with Isabella as quickly as humanly possible. So let's get going. Isabella Burley, welcome to Fashion People.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[A]

Did you have a nice weekend?

[B]

I did, but it's Blue Monday today, which is interesting.

[A]

What it.

[B]

Do you know what Blue Monday is? It's basically the third Monday of January is meant to be the most depressing day of the year. But I'm not feeling too depressed today, so I feel like we're off to a good start.

[A]

You know, I moved to California five years ago, and I no longer understand depressed. No, I mean, some days it was funny over the holidays, it rained quite a bit, which we were all thrilled for. And honestly, if it rains for a couple days in Los Angeles, it's kind of fun because I can wear my raincoat and my boots and all of that stuff. But it rained for days and days and days. And we were off two and a half weeks. I only have one kid, so, like, it's fine. I'm not complaining and a lot of help and support and all that stuff. But I realized, I said to my husband, like, this is why we moved here, because what do you do with a child for two and a half weeks? And you can't go outside. There's nowhere to go. Like in New York or London, there are indoor places to take children. There's just nothing.

[B]

Yeah. And after a few days, the novelty just wears off and you're like, oh, yes.

[A]

Well, I'm. I'm glad that this day is almost over for you. Are you based in London full time, or are you half New York, half London?

[B]

I'm half New York, half London, which is kind of nice because I feel like I get a bit of the best of both worlds. So I feel very lucky to be.

[A]

Able to do that at this point in your life. As an entrepreneur and a person who I assume enjoys the sort of village lifestyle of London, what does New York give you that London can't?

[B]

I think there's just like a. An energy that's incredibly infectious and I think the sense of, like, possibility and opportunity in a way that I think London has slightly less of. My boyfriend also lives there. My best friend lives there. So I feel like I have also, like, a life there that I really love. But then I'm also born and raised in London, and I think it's an incredibly special city. We just opened the new Climax store in London, so I feel like, again, I'm falling back in love with the energy of London as well. So it's kind of having a bit of both.

[A]

Yeah. I lived in London for two years after I graduated from college and I enjoyed it. This was 2004, 2005. And it's a hard city. It was.

[B]

It's hard.

[A]

It's a hard city if you don't know people, because everyone is friends with people that they grew up with. And I was friends with all these Europeans who were really transient, like a lot of Swedish au pairs, some of.

[B]

Them who I'm friends with.

[A]

Yeah. But it was. It's funny, but I moved to New York. Like, I started saving a year into living in London and. And moved to New York and it just. It. It's a place where everybody is. Is from somewhere else, so you feel really at home. And I still feel that way about it. But I will say, the last couple times I've gone back to London and I'm going to go a few times this year, I've really appreciated it. And I worked for a British company for so long and they would have loved for me to move there. And I always say to my husband, like, should we move there now? Because once you have a kid and I don't know, there's something different. Yeah, it's a really special place, but I understand, and it's lucky that you get to do both. We're going to talk a lot about climax and what you're building there. As I was saying, before we got on the call, I got to visit the one in New York in the fall and really loved it and thought it was great and bought a great book, so we can discuss more, but I wanted to run through some of the news of the week with you. Did you happen to catch any of the men's shows in Milan? And what did you think?

[B]

I mean, I saw some of the stuff that came off on my TikTok and Instagram, most notably Dolce, which is just. I mean, totally unsurprising. But also.

[A]

Yeah, only white people in the Dolce show. It's just.

[B]

Yeah. And it's like, you know, they're obviously doing it also on purpose. They're totally aware of what they're doing, but it's just. It's just insane to me. And it also just makes me really sad. And I think they also got almost so much coverage for it, which I also have a bit of an issue with. So. Yeah, it was just strange.

[A]

Yeah. I will say that I don't know if they always do a menswear show. But I stopped last season and I don't know, maybe I will request again. But last season I just didn't even request going to the women's because I was like, I'm not like a traditional critic anyway. But I do write critically about a lot of the shows that I attend, and I think about them and I try to say something meaningful. And the last one I went to, I was just like, I can't write about this. Like, there's nothing to say about. I can write about their business and the future of their business. Not during fashion week, but it's not like a Prada show where I have a million things to say when I leave that show, even though I'm not a traditional critic. But, yeah, I thought it was. Someone DMed me something about it, and I didn't even. It didn't even track to me that it. That they were trying to alert me to some sort of scandal. And then obviously I saw more and more Instagram posts about. About the all white casting, and it's just like, what are you doing? And to give that kind of stuff air is a challenge. Yeah, we'll see what happens with that business now that those guys are really near retirement age. One of them, I think, is just like, totally uninvolved. But it kind of was an example of. I was talking to a friend who was there, who. There just aren't that many shows in Milan now.

[B]

And, yeah, I mean, the fact that London doesn't even exist anymore is like, I totally missed that menswear even started because, you know, obviously before it would historically start with London menswear and then move on to Milan, and that didn't happen. And I was like, oh, yeah, it's menswear.

[A]

Yeah. Where does Craig Greene show? I guess does he show in Paris or he doesn't show?

[B]

I feel like he was also, like, less frequent on the schedule and doing more, like, kind of concept shows. I think he's so talented and so brilliant.

[A]

He's really good.

[B]

I mean, I think he would make a lot of sense in Paris. I'm curious if he's showing in Paris this season, but this.

[A]

He just came up on my feed. I think he had some sort of unique collaboration with, I want to say, Dover street or something. But yeah, I think it's interesting. What I wrote in Monday's email was.

[B]

That.

[A]

I understand why a lot of these, like a Gucci or whatever, does a combined show. Fendi, same thing. But that being said, when you have A big budget. These Runway shows are really valuable marketing tool, and they need to. As you know, as someone who has. You've ran magazines, you've worked at brands, you need to have marketing moments, like, almost on a daily basis. And I think Prada, which, that show looked so good.

[B]

I loved it.

[A]

I'm never jealous of missing. I'm very rarely jealous of missing a fashion show at this point. Like, there will be another, but that one, I was jealous. And it makes you think, like, that show is going to be as meaningful as the last women show. And if you can create little moments and I think really hugely influential on other brands. And it's a good marketing opportunity. So it makes. Even if a lot of these brands have tight budgets right now because sales are down, but I think it makes sense for Gucci to do a standalone men show next season. And because Milan is still. And also given everything that's going on on in Milan with the government crackdown on the factory conditions and all that stuff. And like, there's a real focus. It's still such a big, big industry in Italy. And it's not like New York, where the fashion industry doesn't. It exists, but it's not. Not in the same way. Sure, you could. There's stuff manufactured there, but it's not the engine of. Of the economy. It's the consumption is the engine, but not the production. I just think it's. It makes sense for them to. And also it. It'll ensure, like, a lot of these guys, buyers or whatever, go to Pitti and then they go home and then go back to Paris or whatever. They need to do more to. To make it. It's the one example to me of like, no, this actually should exist and you should make an effort. Usually when a fashion week starts to fade away, I kind of just say, this is the way the culture's moving. It doesn't it make sense? I don't think New York needs to be a huge fashion week anymore. It just doesn't. I'm not trying to save it. I don't think any of us should be. But in this case, I think it. It really matters. What. What did you like about Prada?

[B]

I mean, I just feel like I'm a huge fan of both Wrath and Mucha.

[A]

Me too.

[B]

I think for me, Prada also represents something that feels always, like, incredibly nuanced and surprising and intellectual in this way that it's like you're constantly kind of uncovering elements of it. And then I just love seeing them both together and like, Raf with his, like, Coke Zero. And it's just. I don't know, I think it's like. And I think also when there's so much change happening, there's this kind of, like, familiarity that I find really comforting in a strange way.

[A]

Yes. I find it's probably one of the more chaotic backstages, but I find it so energizing. And I love hearing them speak more than any other designers. I want to know what they have to say. And there was some.

[B]

And there's such a. And there's also such, like, a generous kind of. There's, like, such generosity, I think, in the way that they reflect on the collections and share that I also really respect. And I think a lot of designers don't want to do. And I think that there's something in that generosity that I just find really. Yeah. Really appealing. Yeah.

[A]

They are great communicators, and many designers aren't. And. And it is a verbal communicators. Like, I'm sure they're both very good writers. There was a quote that. That was posted. I need to read the transcription of. Of the backstage interview. But Raph said, if you lick. If you lick layers away, you reveal beauty. Which, like, who else would say that backstage? It's so. It's so.

[B]

You can just imagine him saying it in this, like, really.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Fabulous way. Yeah.

[A]

I love. I love. They both have such amazing energy, and I love seeing them sort of interact. And it was inspiring to see. There's a. You know, I need to find out who this person is, but there is an Instagram account called Retired Fashion Editor, and I believe it's a woman, and she probably worked at, like, Vogue or. I believe she's American. She posts. She's always looking and anything. She posts. Sometimes she posts things also that she doesn't love. Oh, my God. Valentino just died. Wow.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

RIP Valentino Garavani. This is the second time something like this has happened, actually on while I was recording a podcast. But this was the last time it happened. It wasn't as shocking. This is shocking. I mean, look, how old was he? He must have been very exciting for the Fashion People listeners. 93 years old, born May 11. Same birthday as my son and Justin Padgett.

[B]

Love Justin.

[A]

Love Justin.

[B]

Wow. That's crazy. Yes. But I think we're really. I think it's. Yeah. I mean, also, with Armani's passing, it's just the end of an era of, like, a certain. Yeah. Historic Italian designer. And it's kind of crazy to witness, but also yeah. And you just think about, like, the legacies and all of that. I think it's. And then also what's going to happen to the brands and how.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It all evolves.

[A]

Yeah. Valentino, Giovanni, he. He was unique. I mean, I guess Yves Saint Laurent did a similar thing, but he was unique in that he understood. He retired relatively early. I mean, he retired at the end in the late aughts. So that's, you know, almost 20 years ago. And he was still involved with the brand, but decided to kind of live his life. And they. Until they landed on Maria Grazia and Piera Paolo, I think there was. Was it Alessandra Fracchetti who was the designer for a bit, but it was a matter of sort of letting go, but also still keeping an eye. And so many of these designers, Armani, Ralph Lauren, Karl Lagerfeld, are working until the day they die, essentially. I mean, Ralph Lauren is still heavily involved in the business and, you know, he's around the same age. I think he's a little younger than Valentino. But I'm not a. What's it called? I'm not an obituary writer, and I always find this stuff a bit challenging because it's. It's difficult, especially if you haven't interviewed the designer about their legacy, to really be able to pinpoint something. But I think the thing to me that was so important was the sort of modern dressmaking and the modern way that he approached fashion and, and, and also ready to wear in Italy and the 70s and all of that stuff. And I think the way Alessandro Michele is interpreting Valentino now actually is very reflective of the design, like his importance to the people who wore it in the 70s and 80s, if that makes sense. No, yeah.

[B]

He feels so suited for that house.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

Crazy.

[A]

Yeah. RIP I'm sure we'll have more to say in the coming weeks, but you're right, it is an end of an era and it is an end of a sort of. He was one of the last designers to be. To build a brand, open a new brand and build it before the conglomerates existed and all of that. And now, obviously, they're part of one conglomerate, they'll be part of another in a couple of years, most likely, I'm sure. But yeah, it's. It is such. Wow. Anyway, it's hard to move into. Valentino is showing couture next week, I think on Wednesday.

[B]

I wonder if they'll. I wonder if they'll postpone or they'll do a kind of tribute. Yes.

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[B]

I also think it's going to be really interesting to see how a designer like Jonathan or Mathieu uses couture, because I also think of them as like inherently like modern designers. And I think couture sits in this kind of like it sits so much in the past, but so much in tradition that it's almost how do they use it kind of as A catalyst for the bigger brand at large. And I think that's a really interesting kind of task, in a way, for them.

[A]

Well, I think back to Pierre Paolo at Valentino, where I got to see, I think, two of his couture shows. And there was it. There was a point in the couture where he started doing much. A lot more day wear. And it felt. It didn't feel revolutionary, but it felt like a shift in the attitude about what couture is. And I thought it was the best stuff he's done in his entire career. And I wonder. There's such an emphasis on. There were jeans in Chanel, there were jeans in Dior. Every brand is showing jeans on the Runway. Whether they will go the other extreme.

[B]

And just which I almost think it will be where it's like. It's almost so incredibly, like, unmodern in a modern expression, if that makes sense. Any sense?

[A]

Yes, I hope so, because I do feel like so much of what is happening right now is practical and other than the pricing of stuff, but the.

[B]

Most unpractical pricing, but it's almost conservative in a way where it's this kind of like, this familiarity in the sense of, like, connecting the everyday to ready to wear, that it's then like couture, which is so not about the everyday or about familiarity. It's so much about fantasy and something that's totally unattainable for so many people. It's like, how does that become part of a bigger kind of brand message? It's really interesting.

[A]

Yeah. On the subject of modernity, Perfect released this zine this week dedicated to Melanie Ward. And I talked to Katie Grant a little bit about it. She was not close with Melanie, she said, but obviously was really inspired by her. And she sent me the PDF of it. It's available at Cast magazines and anywhere else you get. Cool magazines. Today in Los Angeles, there's like, Skylight Books. I don't know. There's no. There's nowhere. It's really tragic, but you need to open a climax in. In la.

[B]

But we almost signed a lease for a space actually, like a week ago and I pulled out.

[A]

Well, we could talk offline about the LA retail situation and why it's deeply challenging and maybe not the right time. Maybe not. It's also. LA is just hard. No one goes shopping there. It's not a. It's not a place that people think, I'm going to go shopping today, and that's a challenge, but. Or you don't. You can't, like Stop by anyway. But I, I found it really affecting. There's an essay by Joanne Furness, and she interviewed, like, David Sims and Kate Moss, also interviewed Nadej for Mermes and Kim Jones and Ronnie Cook Newhouse and people who have worked with Melanie in the last. Who worked with Melanie in, like, the last decade of her life. And a lot of the work she was doing was consulting with designers and helping them shape their collections. And I find as. As a not creative person who loves the creativity of this industry and, and also just like, absorbs so much. I find the thing that I find so challenging about modern fashion is the fact that we. There's. There's no barrier to entry in terms of accessing old imagery. So it used to be you have to go to the library and look stuff up, and then you go back and then you get an idea. I talked about this a bit with Paul Cavaco when he, he came on about Harper's bazaar in the 90s and how they would, they, they would reference a movie. But. But it, you know, they, they saw the movie six months ago or five years ago or whatever. It wasn't like you could instantly access. And I think that instant access has created a sort of repetition in the imagery that we see. And I, I think the, like, newer campaigns that have come out recently in the last few weeks for the fashion brands, it always reflects this, but it's kind of like, okay, you're using the same photographers or you're same concept. Some of them look nice, some of them don't, but there's really a lack of newness and like, you never feel like you're seeing something new. And to me, Melanie Ward was all about looking ahead, never looking back. She wasn't nostalgic. What kind of relationship did you have to her when it pertains to your work and living in London and all that stuff?

[B]

I mean, I didn't have a personal relationship with her. I never met her, but she obviously has a legacy that had such a huge impact on me. And I think especially in my years at Dazed, I worked also like, a 30th anniversary Rizzoli book for Dazed, which I edited. And again, it's like seeing the work that she did and I think how she sort of like, totally changed the kind of spirit of fashion and also, like, youth culture, because I think that's the other thing is, I think styling now has become so sort of like, full look culture that a lot of the editorials we're seeing aren't really true editorials. There's so many credits that have to be put in and all of that. I've experienced that firsthand. But it's this sense of just freedom and experimentation and also being young and figuring it out. And I think it's interesting because it's like when you look at the legacy of photographers, like, you know, Martin Parr recently passed away. It's like, you know, there are these books that kind of survey the work of one photographer, no matter how niche they are. There's kind of like these, you know, big kind of bibles of them. But it's like it never really happens with stylists or designers. You know, you look at the Helmut Lang archive show that's on at the moment. This is interesting thing where it's like the impact Melanie Ward had on fashion, on designers, on photographers, on image making, on the culture at large is so influential. But it's almost like something that can go kind of quite unrecognized. And it's interesting that stylists, who I think, you know, are some of, like, the most inspiring people I've ever worked with in this industry, are kind of never quite given that space.

[A]

It's true. It's. And she was sort of, in some ways, the first of her kind, 100%. I think sometimes there's also a tension between a stylist and a designer of who should get the credit.

[B]

Credit 100%.

[A]

And so there's this sense of keeping them behind the scenes and not. And when the reality is you probably need one. When a designer stops using a stylist, you can see it, like, sometimes they don't need one. There are. There are some that don't need them or don't need them for times, but I think it helps. It helps work out what something should be. Like, for instance, Michael Ryder used a stylist for his first season at Celine, and then the second season, he didn't. He styled it himself. And I think if he had not worked with Brian Malloy that first season, he may not have understood what he actually needed to do. And now he does. He used to style a lot of the Ralph Lauren stuff, so it's obviously a part of his. In Demna, same thing. Like, he worked with Lata, didn't use a stylist. I don't know what he's gonna do now, but. But then he didn't use a stylus for a while. I think, like, it can be a very powerful tool. And since she was sort of the center of it. But yeah, I think the lesson for me And I'm usually not deeply affected when people who, I don't know, die. I'm sort of like.

[B]

This felt really, like, affecting in many ways, because I think her work and also the spirit. And I feel like all I kept reading was also, like, how kind a person she was and what an amazing kind of, like, collaborator and muse she kind of was to all of these people that I think have also shaped the kind of, like, history of fashion. And also, I think, you know, for that 90s kind of fashion that I think we all still really look up to and kind of hold as, like, the thing that inspired us to get into fashion in the first place. It's like, you know her, she's just such an icon and is so legendary that I think, yeah, it's just a really sad kind of moment.

[A]

Yeah. There's a great quote from Kate Moss, and I highly recommend. You can buy this thing on Perfect's website. If you can't access it. It's. It's awesome. And it's. It's economical in terms of size. Like, it took me 20 minutes to read through it and look at the imagery. And I think having a physical copy is worth it. She said Corinne Day and Melanie used to say to her, like, come on, we're gonna change fashion today. And the thing is, like, that's the attitude people need to have. I don't think people have that attitude anymore. Everyone's so sort of broken down and kind of realistic, and you have to think you're gonna change the world, even if it's just like a fashion shoot. And that is really inspiring to me as someone who, like, you know, as an outsider, couldn't see how much. How influential she was on the way I dress, like, in the way we all look. And it's fabulous. And it is also, you know, Katie is the kind of person who is. The fact that she wanted to do this is why she's special, you know, so.

[B]

But there's also this sense of kind of, like, kind of naivety of also, like, there's a playfulness that I think exists less and less now in fashion. And I think when you hear those stories of, like, that kind of iconic Corinne Day, Rosemary Ferguson shoot for the Face, it's like, it was, like, put. I can't remember whose it was, like, in someone else's flat. I can't if it was like, Phil Pointer or something, but it was, like, above the first. First Dazed Office, like, all of these stories where it's like, there's just. And maybe we romanticize it. But there's a sense of kind of this DIY spirit, and I hate normally using that term because I think it could be so cringe. But it existed in a way that was so pure and so, like, joyful and free. And I think, you know, as the culture's progressed, that has kind of, yeah, morphed into something else. But I think there's something very special about looking back at those images and then hearing the story of how those images are made. Like, I just have always loved that.

[A]

So that sort of brings us to Climax, where you are gathering lots of imagery and everything you've done in your career into this space. Tell us how the store sort of came about, your concept for it, and, like, what it's morphing into now.

[B]

I mean, it really started as like, a pure kind of bedroom project in 2020, during COVID I remember Jefferson Hat calling me, and I was editor in chief of Days at the time and just being like, we can't shoot a summer issue. So we basically had two issues that were on pause, and I had all this time, and it's something that I'd been sitting on for maybe, like, five years before that. And I was like, if I don't do this now, I'm never gonna do it. And I think it started again in a very naive way of just really, like, my personal archive and kind of sourcing and curating for that one moment and building a kind of, like, online world around it with no expectations whatever, that it would turn into anything physical or turn into the kind of, like, brand that it's become now. So I think it started in this really, yeah, totally naive way, which is kind of nice looking back on it, that there wasn't any kind of pressure. And it's sort of organically grown into what it has now. And then I think opening the physical stores, and we now have one in New York and also in London, has just been such a kind of game changer from, like, a personal point of view of, like, building a real world around what we do that I think, gives the curation that we have and the kind of, like, wearable product that we make. Like, it's giving it a context and a kind of, like, home that people can come in and be really pulled into the Climax world. So I think that's been such an exciting thing. And then every week it changes. Like, John Waters came into the New York store last week, and it's like, that's so fun. And that was totally unplanned. And he came in because he'd heard about it. And it's like, those moments just make me, like, so happy. Like, the happiest person in the world.

[A]

I want to ask you some business questions, but before we get to the boring stuff, what do you think of, like, sex in the culture right now? Because obviously what you're doing is sort of reflective of that. It's funny, when I went to your store, my kid and husband came, and we walked, and he's like, can Fritz go come in here? And I was like, yeah. Why? I mean, he's four and a half. Whatever. Like, it's fine. But also, I did. It didn't even occur to me that it would. There would be an. Like, that it was maybe inappropriate for him to. To come in. But there is something happening with. And I don't know if it's connected to this, like, this regression to traditionalism that's happening in politics and this polarization and all that. And then also there is progression with, like, our ideas of what sexuality is and gender and all these things and that push, pull. And then, because there's your business, my friend started a romance novel imprint where it's called 831 stories. I'll send it to you. It's interesting. It's kind of like the A24 of romance. So they. They publish that. Novellas that are, like, beautifully designed with modern stories, but it's still like, a traditional romance. And then you look at what's the hockey show that I finally did watch. Heated rivalry.

[B]

So I loved. I loved it.

[A]

You loved it. So I'm. I need to watch the last two episodes.

[B]

He also walked the last. You will be sobbing by the end of the last three episodes.

[A]

I'm gonna watch this episode.

[B]

And I think it also almost changed my perception of the show, because I think you understand by then how nuanced it is in this, like, very way that kind of catches you off guard. So I would really recommend finishing.

[A]

I will, for sure. And so thinking of all of this and. And what. And what you're doing and what you're commenting on, how does sort of climax reflect what's happening in the culture? And, like, what would you say your sort of. I don't know if goal is right or mission, but the idea behind the way you're editing the stores and the. The brand generally.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, we have seen this kind of, like, sexlessness of culture that I do think climax is a bit of a response to. But I think for me, it's like, I love kind of like pushing that boundary of like what's, you know, like on the line and what's off the line in the sense of like, you know, you know, the name is Climax. It's such a kind of like confronting name. But then all of the branding that we have, the way the website is designed, it's like almost quite like cold and gallery. Like, and then you go into the stores and like, yes, there's a lot of stainless steel and it maybe feels like more kind of luxury fashion store, but then we have the latex seating or the pink vinyl. So I think it's this thing of constantly kind of like challenging people, but also like there being this curiosity but. But not kind of in an intimidating way or like an in your face way. And I think like I grew up in the generation of like, what was kind of like sexual imagery and fashion was like Terry Richardson and American Apparel. My first job when I was 16 was at American Apparel. Like, that's what I was like raised on. And it's not about that. It's not doing it in a kind of in your face way, but I think it's kind of like teetering on the edge and kind of. There are moments where we dial it up and moments where we dial it down. But it's not like sex is not our point of view. It's just like a kind of tool that we play with.

[A]

I think that's why I was not worried about going in that store because obviously there's some imagery that would.

[B]

But you have to pull it off the shelf. Exactly. Really open it up like when you first entered the store. I mean, the only thing would maybe be like a latex shopping bag, but I don't know that a four year old would understand maybe what that was.

[A]

No. And let's talk about the shopping bag because I bought the Lauren Greenfield book from 88, like teens in Los Angeles.

[B]

So good. Was it fast forward or.

[A]

Yes, fast forward.

[B]

Growing up in Hollywood. So good. Such an iconic book. She's so underrated, in my opinion. Lauren.

[A]

Totally. I'm a huge, I'm a huge fan and it felt appropriate, like I lived there. And also I think I got a couple other things. Oh, I got socks, I got a T shirt, I got the ringer tee.

[B]

But I love.

[A]

Tell, tell me about the, the shopping bag. Because I thought that was sort of the. It's a particular pink, it's very tactile. And I thought this is what is going to make this a real brand, like whatever a brand means in the next 15 years. Like, that's what's making it. But tell me how you came up with the concept for the bag. And like, is it really expensive to produce it? How do you. How do you do it?

[B]

So do you mean the shopping bag or the latex bag?

[A]

The shopping bag is two different.

[B]

Tell us.

[A]

You can also tell us about the latex bag, though.

[B]

So the shopping bag, we make it at the same factory, Katica, that like, makes all of Bottega's packaging and like all of the luxury fashion brands. So, yes, it is an investment to make. But for me, it's also just so symbolic of, like. And also we designed it in a way where it's like, there's no handle, so you kind of have to hold it as like a bit of a clutch and it kind of becomes this like, statement thing that people, like, take pictures of themselves with. And we also. Then when customers or kind of cultural figures come in the store, we get them to pose with the shopping bag in this kind of funny, slightly tongue in cheek way. But yeah, I think it's really symbolic of me, for me, of that kind of climax pink, the typography. But then it's like this kind of gloss, stiff envelope that feels like really luxe and is the opposite of like, you know, most bookstore bags are either, you know, a brown paper bag that's like totally off the shelf and not custom, or it's like a tote bag that's made out of canvas. So I kind of like this idea of like having almost like luxury fashion packaging.

[A]

I love it and I found it to be very. I don't know, it really stuck with me, which is. I'm glad, and obviously I saved it. But tell me about the latex bag.

[B]

I mean, the latex bag again, I think I really spent a long time. I think we didn't launch any kind of merch until 2024. So, yeah, almost five years into climax. Because I think for me it's like, with my background in fashion and having worked at the brands and the magazines I have, I was like, it needs to be another level. And I think most bookstores have a canvas bag that's just like a given at any bookstore from the strand to DashW. And I love that and I love the dashwood canvas bags. But I think we like this idea of, like, how do we challenge that? And this idea of having these like, latex shoppers that are really like a classic bodega shopper shape, but made out of like translucent latex with our woven label inside and they're all handmade in the UK by this, like, really outrageous, like, gay latex leather factory in Nottingham. And they're all handmade for us in, like, the lead Times. Like, we've. We've sold out of the pink one at the moment, of the natural one at the moment. So, like, we've put in a reorder and it takes 10 weeks because they're all made by hand and it's like a whole thing. But it's more of a statement of, like, who we are and kind of. Yeah, it's more of a statement in a way.

[A]

So the merch, I feel like early on, I want to say Sophia came into the shop and wore a sweatshirt and it felt like it sort of made people notice. But the merch feels like it's become a pretty big thing for you. I don't. But how, especially because we're in a post merch world in a way. Like, did you expect that and how have you sort of managed it and how do you approach it? Because it's. I think. I mean, I love. I love what you're doing. And I think we think of the merch on the Runway and the peaking and all that, but merch is just a thing that will exist forever. Like, there will always be a Little League baseball team that has. Is sponsored by a dry cleaner. Like, it will always exist. But I think your approach is unique and I'm just curious how you're thinking about it.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think the word merch is also quite problematic where it feels really throwaway and it's bad quality and it's something that you sort of, like you were immersed in the kind of hype of being at a sports game and you bought a T shirt that you're like, I'm never going to actually wear this. It's going to end up getting donated. So I think we kind of like to use this term wearables, which is slightly pretentious, but I also kind of love it. And firstly, we use amazing factories in Portugal. It's all 100% organic cotton. It's cut and sew, so it's not like a kind of box fit. It's all customized and it's often based off a lot of kind of vintage pieces I've been collecting for years. And, like, you know, we spend like six months getting, like the perfect hoodie shape. And it's like our hoodie shape is like, cropped, but we have also a zip one that's like, more oversized. So I think it's like those Details that I really love. But it's also, like, now a huge part of our business. And I think the growth of climax as a brand is really going to come from the product.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm so curious to see, because you've been so thoughtful about this, when you move into stuff less branded, what that could be. It's really exciting.

[B]

Yeah. And also we have, and I can't say because I'm under crazy NDAs, but we have a really big collaboration that will come out at the end of the year that we just got the samples for, like, earlier today. So my Blue Monday was less depressing because of that.

[A]

Okay, final question for you. Half of my life is looking through going to bookstores, going to Instagram accounts that have rare books. It has become the two places I shop in Los Angeles are Scout and Architecture, which is right across the street.

[B]

Perfect.

[A]

I'm curious why you think that these sort of highly edited bookstore concept. And there are. There are people who are doing it online too. Jeff Snacks, buying stuff from him constantly. It's so easy for me to buy from these things because I'm just like, it's 120 bucks and it's a piece of history that I'll actually enjoy reference.

[B]

And go back to.

[A]

And why do you think this is happening right now?

[B]

I mean, I think for me it offers such a kind of, like, connection to culture in this really, like, physical and tangible way. And I think for most creative people, it's like, books totally change your life. Like discovering that one image maker and then finding that book or seeing that one image or the context of like a Karine Day shoot in the face from the 90s. It's like, it changes people's, like, lives and creativity. And I think, yeah, I think there's just this kind of interest and curiosity for something that isn't just imagery online, that's kind of being regurgitated. And I think another way that we really try and approach our social is that it's very educational where we'll try and give a bit of context of, oh, this Linda Evangelista picture was actually shot in the window of Harvey Nichols. And how crazy is that? A fashion shoot was there and that actually then inspired the Bella Hadid Pop Charlotte Whale shoot. And like, giving these kind of, like, snippets of history. And I think, yeah, it's that kind of educational element that I think is really fun. And it's also context. I think when you see something in a physical book or magazine, you understand the context in which something existed and Often, like, we have also a lot of pieces of ephemera which might be like, you know, a flyer to, like, a club night that was designed by Keith Haring that's the shape of, like, a pink penis with Keith Haring's, like, artwork or. Yeah, like a ymo, like, tour pamphlet. And they used to come in this, like, crazy, beautifully made kind of booklet. So I think it's also seeing that there was kind of this world that existed pre social media as we know it today that I think people are really, like, genuinely excited by.

[A]

Yeah, it's interesting. I have never been a saver of Fashion Week invites because.

[B]

Really interesting. I have a couple. I am. Yeah, Yeah.

[A]

I have the Plato's Atlantis, Alexander McQueen.

[B]

Good one. That you held onto.

[A]

I have the final letter. Marc Jacobs, final Louis Vuitton. But I think maybe. And maybe one or two dries, because they're just. They were so beautiful. But I'm very like, no, this doesn't mean anything. And yet if you.

[B]

I mean, it's hard. Cause 95% of them don't mean anything. And then it's like that 5% where you're like, oh, my God, I'm so glad I kept this or that.

[A]

Yes. But I would say in the last few years, I've collected much more ephemera because of what you're talking about, which is that, like, it gives you the feeling that nothing else does. The only thing that gives me a similar feeling is going to look at art. And if you can have that in your home and just around, it does add another dimension to your life, which is.

[B]

Yeah. And I think it also, like, gives the. It kind of, like, chronicles these, like, really important cultural moments. Like, we had a launch at the London store last week with Liz Johnson Artor, who's an amazing photographer, and it was about this club night PDA in London that was like, really, really important culturally and kind of like, birthed a lot of, like, important creative people in London. Like Misha Norcott, the casting director, Ibrahim Kamira. Like, it really, like, was the birth of, like, a kind of new form of kind of, like, self expression. And it's like those images, yes, they probably existed on Instagram, but like, Liz spending. I think she spent four years putting it into, like, a book. And it really, like, chronicles an incredibly important moment for, like, black queer culture in London and fashion. And that's so amazing. And that's gonna really, like, last forever. And that's, like, so special to me. Isabella.

[A]

I have the same feeling I get when I look at my ephemera talking to you.

[B]

So I love that.

[A]

Thank you so much for doing this. It was so great and I hope I get to see you in real life.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producer, producers Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob Tabador.