The Look of Love

Summary

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Fashion People: "The Look of Love"

Host: Lauren Sherman
Guests: Inez van Lamsweerde & Vinoodh Matadin
Date: June 19, 2026

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Episode Overview

This intimate episode of Fashion People centers on renowned fashion photographers and creative duo Inez van Lamsweerde and Vinoodh Matadin, exploring 40 years of creative partnership, their pioneering approach to image-making, and the emotional and technological underpinnings of their celebrated body of work. The conversation spans the evolution of fashion photography, merging art and commerce, and the duo’s new “futurespective” exhibition, all wrapped in reflections on love, collaboration, and the current state of fashion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Beginnings: Love & Collaboration in Life and Art

[12:03 - 15:25]

• How They Met:
  • Both attended Amsterdam’s Fashion Academy in the mid-1980s but found their calling through image-making rather than fashion design.
  • Collaborated initially on Vinoodh’s collections, with Inez photographing his designs.
  • Their creative bond predated their romantic relationship by six years, developing from collaboration into partnership.
• Becoming Inseparable:
  • “We do everything together. There’s like, not one moment that we don’t do together except, you know, when either of us has to go to the dentist or the doctor… then we were happy to be back together.” — Inez [12:03]
  • Their romantic relationship blossomed after both found themselves single, which led to moving to New York for a residency and committing fully to joint creative endeavors.
• Artistic Shift:
  • Moving from fashion design to image-making, they questioned the nature of identity and perfection—especially as digital technologies emerged.

2. Early Years in New York & Image-Making Philosophy

[15:46 - 22:47]

• Residency at PS1:
  • Discussed the difficulties of adjusting to American culture and the fashion industry but valued the isolation for artistic development.
• Bridging Art and Fashion:
  • Not common then to work across art and commercial fashion; they embraced both worlds while keeping independence.
  • “For us… not really be dependent on any of these two different worlds, but to try to merge them and get inspired by either way of thinking and working.” — Inez [21:38]

3. Technological Pioneering & Creative Process

[22:58 - 27:21]

• Early Adopters of Digital Manipulation:
  • Brought computer-generated backgrounds and image manipulation to fashion magazines (e.g. using Quantel Paintbox).
• Focusing on Emotion:
  • Despite manipulations, emotion and connection remain central to their art.
  • “For us, the main thing is that we love people… we know that is what we’re going to bring out as much as we can in the photograph.” — Inez [27:21]
  • “Truth is not in a photograph. Love is in a photograph, but not truth.” — Inez [24:10]

4. The Retrospective (“Can Love Be a Photograph?”):

[32:22 - 34:58]

• Not Just a Retrospective—A “Futurespective”:
  • Their 40-year exhibition is organized by theme, not chronology.
  • “Each work for us holds clues for new work… an endless resource.” — Inez [33:33]
• What Makes It to the Wall:
  • People and the emotional statement, not just clothes or fame of garments, define what is worthy of exhibiting.

5. The Language and Codes of Fashion

[35:54 - 39:12]

• Fashion’s Enduring Appeal:
  • Both trained in design, they see fashion as nostalgic—a remixing of youthful identity and cultural associations.
  • “Nostalgia is at the base of all fashion… it’s this constant remix of things that we all remember into something new…” — Inez [36:15]
• Codes & Projection:
  • Fashion as “projection”—every morning, people decide who to be via what they wear—even those who claim disinterest in fashion.

6. The Evolution (and Entertainment-ization) of Fashion

[40:19 - 48:06]

• Corporate Takeover & The Age of Content:
  • “A couple years ago, corporate fashion has decided that fashion needed to become entertainment. And I think that’s the world we’re living in right now.” — Inez [40:19]
  • Both critique and appreciate the new entertainment-driven era, but lament the dilution of meaning via ‘content.’
• Unique Experiences With Designers:
  • Recounted collaborative journeys with Virgil Abloh at Louis Vuitton (highlighting his focus on play and kindness) and with Virginie Viard at Chanel (a comprehensive, intimate collaboration touching all brand touchpoints).
  • “When a designer is able to combine [service and souvenir/merch], that’s when it’s really successful and has longevity.” — Inez [41:10]
• Dialogue-Centric Process:
  • With Yohji Yamamoto via MM Paris, their work created a real back-and-forth between image and collection.

7. The Rise of Small (Real) Brands

[48:07 - 53:48]

• Hope for Small Labels:
  • As big brands become more about entertainment and mass messaging, “it’s time for small companies” to rise—brands that don’t necessarily advertise, but serve real wardrobe needs.
• Personal Favorites:
  • Inez swears by Nili Lotan; Vinoodh wears Husbands Paris.
  • Both praise these brands for authenticity, quality, and building communities, in contrast to mass-market homogeneity.
• On Phoebe Philo:
  • Lauded for her elusive, service-first design.
  • “She’s completely elusive…her clothes…are being of service to us and kind of have this merch quality…” — Inez [52:13]
• Emerging Talents:
  • Young German brand “No Fate,” praised for craft and independence.

8. Technology: References, Research, and Image-Making Today

[53:48 - 58:30]

• Impact of Digital Abundance:
  • Access to references and images has “normalized” and flattened visual culture, but also democratized image appreciation.
  • “Everyone goes through this idea of, oh, I love that, I’m going to take a picture of it… For us, that’s really at the base of our work…” — Inez [55:52]
• Celebrity Saturation:
  • Overuse of celebrities leads to brand sameness; celebrity control over campaigns dilutes vision.
  • “Every brand becomes the same because… everybody’s running after the same hot ones…” — Vinoodh [58:30]

9. The Value of Collaboration — Team, Art Directors, and Musicians

[60:10 - 66:53]

• Long-term Collaborators:
  • Credit to their lighting director Yudoka Star, who’s worked with them since 1991.
  • The creative process is about building a “learning part of each other” and being part of a team.
• Not just team, but creative equals:
  • Art directors like Michael Amzokes (MM Paris) and Lina Kutzkowskaya, who co-create in a dialogue rather than dictate.
• Artist Collaborators:
  • “Bjork, Lady Gaga, and Madonna even… really help changing our vision of how we see people and how we see images…” — Vinoodh [65:27]
  • Gaga especially praised for creative conviction and bringing everyone into her vision.

10. Final Notes — Exhibition Details & Closing Thoughts

[67:08 - End]

• Can Love Be a Photograph? exhibition runs until September 6th in The Hague, Holland.
• Lauren expresses gratitude and awe for Inez and Vinoodh’s impact on fashion image-making.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Collaboration:
  • “There’s not one moment that we don’t do together except, you know, when either of us has to go to the dentist or the doctor. And that would be like an hour and a half separation. Quite enough. And then we were happy to be back together.” — Inez [12:03]
• On Digital Manipulation:
  • “We’re not interested in reality so much. We are interested in creating a sort of hyperreal image or a different way of looking at glamour.” — Inez [24:10]
• On Fashion Nostalgia:
  • “Nostalgia is at the base of all fashion…” — Inez [36:15]
• On Content:
  • “The word content… alludes to a vacant type of meaningless, filling holes, type of thing.” — Inez [40:39]
• On Brands and Celebrity:
  • “The celebrity has the power to kill an image or approve it. And I think that’s where this starts to become a very slippery slope…” — Inez [59:06]
• On Phoebe Philo’s Influence:
  • “I mean, I think that’s just the most unbelievable example of not having to be an entertainment company, not having to be a designer who is present, who does interviews… her clothes…do that thing where it’s being of service to us and kind of have this merch quality…” — Inez [52:13]
• On Exhibition:
  • “Each work for us sort of holds clues for new work to make…an endless resource for more work.” — Inez [33:33]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 11:24 – Breakfasts & Living Together as Partners
• 12:03 – Early Collaboration & Romantic Beginnings
• 15:46 – Move to New York, Initial Difficulties, Early Projects
• 21:33 – Merging Art and Fashion Worlds
• 24:10 – Approach to Hyperreality & Manipulation in Photography
• 27:21 – The Role of Love & Emotional Connection in Their Work
• 32:22 – The Exhibition: “Can Love Be a Photograph?”
• 35:54 – The Codes of Fashion and Nostalgia
• 40:19 – Entertainment Era in Fashion & Critique of “Content”
• 47:44 – Creative Dialogues with Designers
• 49:42 – Small Brands and Current Personal Favorites
• 53:17 – Perspective on Phoebe Philo
• 54:56 – Technology’s Effect on Visual Culture
• 58:30 – Celebrity Saturation in Modern Branding
• 61:03 – Collaborators, Teamwork, and Artistic Peers
• 67:08 – Exhibition Dates and Closing

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Style & Tone

The conversation is relaxed, thoughtful, and at times playful—marked by decades of professional and romantic intimacy between Inez and Vinoodh. Lauren's questions are industry-savvy and inviting, drawing out practical insights and philosophical musings. The duo balance technical details with stories and emotional reflections, making the complex landscape of fashion photography accessible and compelling.

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For listeners, this episode is a masterclass in creative partnership and a rare behind-the-scenes look at how fashion image-making has evolved—in both art and business—over the last four decades.

Transcript

[Lauren Sherman]

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Foreign.

[Lauren Sherman]

Welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, runner of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo Line sheet and today with me on the show are Inez and Vinood. They chat about photography, working together for 40 years, love, marriage, image making, the state of fashion, and so much more. Before we get going. I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the art world and much more. If you're interested listeners of Fashion people get a discount. Just go to Puck News fashionpeople to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday everyone. Hope everyone is having a great week. I hope you're really well. Hope you're beating the heat. I'm in the air conditioning in Milan right now. Apparently it's going to be 104 degrees in Paris on Monday. I personally booked a hotel room around the corner from my apartment because I was like, that's crazy. I'm not gonna have a 5 year old in 104 degree weather with no air conditioner. I guess it won't be 100 fortnight, but anyway, it's just nuts. Anyway, just landed in Italy from London where I attended the big Hermes store. Opening the party and then I hosted a dinner with Shyamai. But first of all, let's discuss Hermes, the London store. This is the nicest single brand store you will ever see. But it was owned by Asprey, which like many of you know this, but it's one of these British companies that has like a seal from the Queen or whatever. It's a lot of silver. You get like an Asprey frame or there's jeweler. It's a jeweler essentially it's kind of like the Tiffany of, of the uk, Although it's, it's not, you know, I don't know, the people from Tiffany would love that. But anyway, they owned the building for like well over 100 years and then Hermes bought it in 2009. But then I think they had to like wait it out for the lease and then also it just took a long time to redo it. It's an incredible structure, but it's also just gorgeous and fun, whimsical and it's a marvel. The only other single brand store I love as much is the Prada store in Soho, which is incredibly special story in a different way. This is like super textural and you should check it out. I went in the morning to the opening, I said hi To Pierre Alexi, Hermes artistic director, who really kind of managed the whole thing. It's really a labor of love. And then the Hermes people took a bunch of us to Tracy, one of Tracy Emmons homes. And she also, like, does a bunch of work. There was her studio as well, and her. I don't want to call him a studio assistant because he's obviously more her like thought partner. And I think they've been working together for 18 years. Showed us around and it was really amazing. We got to see all this never before exhibited works. And we also went into her bedroom, which, like, I don't know, I asked about it. I think it's just interesting that she's so comfortable. But I guess, like, you're an artist and she kind of puts. Her thing is putting it all out there. So we put it all, all out there. She's very neat and clean. It's not like if you go to the Tate and you see the bedroom there. It's not like that. The. The big piece that she's really famous for. But she had dresses hanging from the row on her door. I was looking at all the brands. She wears a lot of designer clothes, really beautiful stuff. But it. They were like hanging perfectly. It was interesting. And then so we got to see that. I had lunch by myself, I did some work and then we all went to club in southwest London for the sort of requisite Hermes party, which had tons of kitschy stuff, but, like, kitschy in the most elegant way ever. So they did a pub with a pub quiz and their chandeliers made out of carrots and leaks. And they had all these like makeshift restaurants. Some of them said, I heard this cost a million pounds. I was like, if it only costs that, they're very frugal. I can't imagine it must have been more. But. But I really don't have any idea. I'm not going to speculate on the actual number, but it was wacky. It was amazing. They hired like all these British musicians and artists and famous people to put on performances. It was pretty incredible. I did miss the fireworks though, because I went to Vesper, this new restaurant from this chef here called Jackson Boxer, who's extremely famous. I had never heard of him before, but I started getting served his. I don't know, like, he's in my algorithm. The restaurant was in my algorithm. And so Alex Bigler and I, from Bigler from Puck, we went. It was really great. It's get the crisps and the dip and the cucumber salad, for sure. It also looks really good. And it was funny because at the Hermes party, I met the designer of the space, Jermaine Gallacher, who also edits Ton magazine. So it's. It's all of a piece. And also two of the guests, Isabella Burleigh and Tallulah Harlech, who were at the dinner the next night. The dinner I hosted with Shop My, were also at Vesper the night that we were there. They were there earlier because they did not have to go to the Hermes party. But, yeah, I do think that London is the best eating city in the world right now. And it was very nice to be a cafe deco with for this party with Shop My. Just huge thank you to Tiffany, the CEO of Shop My, and also Aisha, who does strategic partnerships for them. It was really great. It was a great. We always have great people. Only nice people say yes to this stuff. Interesting, smart people. But this was a really fun mix, like Christopher Kane and Connor Ives, two generations of designers based here. Elle's Kenya Hunt came. I've known her forever. And then there were, you know, tons of reps from brands like burberry, Jimmy Choo, McQueen. It was a really nice mix and fun. We had a great time. I didn't smoke a cigarette, though, because I don't smoke. Anyway, huge thanks also to the team at dlx, especially Sarah, who runs their office here in Justin, who is the partner in New York, Justin Padgett. Very famous line sheet and fashion people star. They support us on many of these dinners and this one was just perfect. Like the flowers by Flavia, Anna's food. The photographer was amazing. It was just. It was a great night. Anyway, I'm coming back in two weeks for another dinner, so more from the UK soon. But this week on Line Sheet, we've got a lot of great, great stuff. There were many media scoops, There were many OVO scoops thanks to Malik Morris. There was glossier scoops thanks to Rachel Sugats. And Malik also went deep on the future of the Victoria's Secret. He's kind of taken over that beat for me and he's doing a really amazing job with it. So if you're interested in understanding how Victoria's Secret somehow is doing, well, even though, like, a turnaround seemed impossible, he has the answers. And I will be back Online Sheet on Monday with the report from the men's shows. And I have. I'm sitting on a lot of stuff, so we're rolling it out. There's gonna be men's shows next week. Then there's couture. There's gonna be a lot of news in the next couple weeks. And I hope you enjoyed this interview with the truly wonderful Inezud Enood. Ineza Menood. Welcome to Fashion People.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Hi.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

Hi, Elora. So great to be here.

[Lauren Sherman]

I am honored. And I was just to describe to the audience, you're both wearing corded air ipods. Matching. And I don't think we've ever had. We've had two people in the same room before, but not wearing the corded. I don't even know what they're called. They just called AirPods. I don't remember.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Headphones, I guess. Apple headphones.

[Lauren Sherman]

Apple headphones, yeah. What did you all have for breakfast this morning?

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Oh, wow. What a good question. Breakfast is our favorite meal of the day, most important meal. So we always have yogurt and berries and muesli and that kind of stuff. And it's endlessly satisfying every time. What do you have?

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, what did I have? I had an avocado toast.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Pretty good drink. Yeah, it's delicious.

[Lauren Sherman]

I don't always eat breakfast, but I had a mid morning breakfast and a mid afternoon lunch today instead of an early lunch. Do you all always eat breakfast together?

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

We do everything together. There's like, no. Not one moment that we don't do together except, you know, when either of us has to go to the dentist or the doctor. And that would be like an hour and a half separation. Quite enough. And then we were happy to be back together.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

It's an ongoing creative process where you have to be very flexible.

[Lauren Sherman]

So you two met in the early 80s or in the mid-80s?

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Mid-80s, yeah. Was it mid or early?

[Vinoodh Matadin]

Almost mid, early 80s.

[Lauren Sherman]

How did you meet? Was it as collaborators? Did you start? Did you fall in love immediately?

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

We both went to the Fashion Academy, which is in Amsterdam, where we met. And I decided after two years trying to design and sew clothes that I wasn't cut out for that and that I kept taking pictures all the time and moved on to art school to do photography at the Rietfeld Academy in Amsterdam. And that was kind of, kind of the same year when Vinod graduated from the Fashion Academy. And.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

And I was making clothes to photograph because I had all these. I was so inspired by Jean Cocteau and all these movies. And the reason I wanted to make clothes is to make images. And when I did, when I graduated, I started working on my first collection. Had the idea of going to Paris after that. So when I was midway, I was like, I need to Find somebody who can really photograph this. And my business manager at the time said, oh, remember Ines from the Academy? I said, yes, of course. So I called Ines and I explained what I was doing. And he said, well, you know, I want to do it, but I want to see the clothes. And if I like the clothes, then we can work together. And that's how it started.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

That's it. And then we did those first pictures together. And you could say we fell in love immediately, but we were both involved with other people, so didn't really say anything about that to each other. But we kept on working for the six years from then on, me shooting his clothes every season. We would work together on his fashion shows. I would sometimes model in them. And we kept having all these conversations about what we liked, what we were inspired by. And it was always the same thing. Like, no matter when we would find each other again in those six years, there was always this connection on feeling exactly that you are at the same point. Then six years later, we were both without partners and bumped into each other at the cash machine and then. And then went for coffee. Very good. Sad. And that was it. Then it was done and been together ever since. But we started working together. That first picture was in 1986.

[Lauren Sherman]

And when you got together, did the not being without each other start immediately? Or how did you go from being collaborators to lovers to inseparable and creating everything together? Your life, your work, everything?

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Yeah, I mean, actually quite from the beginning, right from the moment that this was clear, we.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

You kept it a secret for a few months.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Yeah, we tried to be sort of subtle about it, but then in the end, I guess we. We gave into it and then moved actually straight, like a year in. We moved to New York because we were invited as artist in residence at PS1, which, you know, then was still in Queens only and had its little clock tower outpost in Manhattan. And it was actually the first time for me that I came to New York. And the moment we landed here, it was immediately clear that we were going to do everything together. And Vinu decided to stop designing and really focus with me together on image making and on creating the exhibition that comes with that artist in residency thing at PS1. So that's kind of how we really started, you know, fully being into it all together every day. And it was pretty tough that first year in New York. We knew pretty much no one. We didn't understand American culture as much, but were fascinated by it and watched a lot of television and absorbed as much as we could of the thought process and ideas that were swirling around here, which was to us, like, very foreign and interesting. Specifically this idea of physical perfection and the focus on that, which, you know, in Europe at the time wasn't, you know, really big of a thing, but here we noticed that there was this idea of trying to be as perfect as you can. But then, you know, when we started out at PS1 and started making, you know, our autonomous work, it was really clear to us that with the birth of the Internet, which is 1992, which was when we were here, and the fact that CNN became this 24 hour news cycle, entertainment and news became entertainment, we said, okay, so if everything is going through a screen, eventually if all contact goes through computers, why would you want to be so perfect? Why is there this focus on physical perfection? What use is it when no one's touching you, when you're having any connection through a screen? And you could virtually be anyone who

[Vinoodh Matadin]

you can be any gender, because it doesn't matter anymore because we're all in the digital life.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Yeah, like you could have this whole other life online and like this was, you know, in 1992. And we started thinking about that. And that's sort of what propelled the work that we made while we were at PS1 called Thank youk Thighmaster, based on Ms. Suzanne Somers commercial and the two other series following that called Final Fantasy and the Forest, which then were shown in Venice at the Biennale and in Amsterdam at the Staelig Museum. So that kind of push from that really got us out there in the art world. But at the same time, while we were in New York, we were, you know, trying to work as fashion photographers. And in those days it wasn't about, you know, there was no Instagram, no cell phones, so you had to call and try to get through. And like, you know, we as Dutch people, we were taught that when you phone someone, you go like, hi, my name is Ines van Lemsweerd, I'm a Dutch photographer. Could I speak to. And like halfway through they already hang up because it was like, that's too long, that's not happening. And so I learned after a while that you just have to go like, hi, is Richard there? And then they put you through so that, you know, eventually that works.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

It was actually really nice to be so isolated in the beginning because we really had time to develop our thinking and way of working because we didn't have a job every day. We only had to think about what to make for an art piece and we had A year, the time for that. So it was really good to have time to read and study and looking through America like almost like through a microscope, you know.

[Lauren Sherman]

Was it common then to work on art photography and do fashion photography at the same time or.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

No, no, it wasn't. And you know, back then it was as an artist. It was so not cool to be commercial or to even appear in the party pages of Vogue or, Or any of that. Like, that was. There was a real separation between, you know, high art and quote, unquote, commercial, low fashion.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

Even when Ines was still in art academy and I was working already on my own collection, it was a big no. The school was like, you can't do that.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Yeah, for me to. Yeah, to work for you. And to straightaway say, like, look, I'm going to bring my, my roles of film to a lab because my reality will be that I'm going to shoot like 40 roles a day. I'm not going to develop them myself. So it was sort of like then for sure not done. And it did in the early 90s, you know, it did start that whole thing, fashion and art and how it could, you know, feed of each other and inform each other, which we were always a part of.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

But like, the other person at that moment was Wolfgang Tillmans. He did the same thing.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Yeah, yeah, it's true. We kind of started working at the same time in both worlds, both the art worlds. We had shows in galleries at Matthew Marks and such in New York while we were shooting for Vogue. And it was really, for us so important to be kind of independent of either world in order to just keep our vision, quote, unquote, pure, as you say, as you could say. Like it was the. The main thing for us was to not really be dependent on any of these two different worlds, but to try to merge them and, and get inspired by either way of, of, of thinking and working. But, you know, we also, you know, when we went to fashion school in the 80s, the Japanese designers were the thing. This was when Yoji and Calm hit hard. And I think that aesthetic and way of approaching fashion, you know, really informed like our years, you know, at art school and at the academy.

[Lauren Sherman]

What was it like shooting for Vogue in the early 90s? You must have been so young compared to so many of the other photographers even that they were using, even then.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Yeah, I mean, it was.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

Well, we were also different because we were using the computer. And that was for them almost like a new thing and almost a thing that they couldn't understand how it Worked.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Yeah, because what we used to do was how it all began was kind of we were shooting models in the studio, and then on. Later on the computer, on the Quantel Paintbox. We would take a stock slide of a background, say, of the, you know, the Golden Gate Bridge or something, and put that behind the girl that we shot in the studio. So that process of actually shooting something and then altering it on the computer and being able to place her anywhere was, at that point, not that at all. We were, like, the first to bring that kind of technology to the fashion

[Vinoodh Matadin]

world, but also we brought, like, an unreal world but looks real into the world of fashion, I mean, and into the world of art.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Yeah. Because when we started, it was kind of grunch time, when everything was sort of black and white, low, no makeup,

[Vinoodh Matadin]

car and you're poor.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

This kind of thing.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

The next radiator.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Yeah. We were always saying, like, you know, we're not interested in reality so much. We are interested in creating a sort of hyperreal image or a different way of looking at glamour. Because a fashion photograph is essentially saying to you that the road to happiness is through glamour. And for us, it was interesting to play with all the preconceived notions, all the ideas around that by using the computer, by using the idea of, okay, I'm shooting this now, but then I have a chance to go into it later and change it and reconstruct an image to kind of. To disrupt this idea of time and disrupt the idea of a photograph being a purveyor of reality. Like, for us, truth is not in a photograph. Love is in a photograph, but not truth. And we always said that from the beginning. And so at the early days when we would do this kind of work for Vogue, it was, like Vin said, it was hard for them because it wasn't like, oh, here are 10 different shots of the same outfit. Choose the best one. No, we would choose it, and then we would manipulate it and put a background behind it, and that was it. Which was a very different way of working for them.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

And it was hard, like, for Anna Winters, like, can I see another option?

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Because it would take so much time then and work to merge the two images together. So it was a different way of working for them. But I have to say, hats off to them for immediately recognizing that it was something else and that it was a different vision and it had a new approach which they did embrace immediately, which had to do with, you know, their art directors being extremely forward in a way.

[Lauren Sherman]

Well, it's interesting, you Say there's love, but not always truth, because there's a certain magic to what you all do and what any amazing photographer does. But it's interesting. Like, how did you find, in using new technology and experimenting in this way, how did you find the emotion and the love through imagery? Like, what do you think it is about your process that the end result is emotional?

[Vinoodh Matadin]

Well, when we started, we started doing everything ourselves. So basically we came up with the idea what we wanted to say in an image. And then we. Especially in the beginning, we did the styling ourselves, we did the casting ourselves, you know, from everything, from every detail in our image was done by us. And even we were working on the layouts ourselves. And on the text, you know, what is the headline? What does it say? All that was part of it. But we were very involved in the beginning in every aspect.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Yeah. But then in terms of our process, it's really so much about the person that sits opposite us in front of our lens. Like, whether it's a fashion photograph or a portrait, it's. For us, the main thing is that we love people. And we're endlessly fascinating, first of all, by how people look and the specificity of how someone looks. Like whether it's the way their eye sits in their sockets, the way the space between your nose and your lips is slightly longer than in someone else's face. We can endlessly study someone and are completely mesmerized constantly when we meet someone for the first time, when they come into our studio to be photographed, there's the hello and the, you know, I'm so glad you're here kind of thing. But in reality, I kind of don't hear what they're saying because I am studying and I'm looking. And then at some point, you see what's so magnificent about someone. And I'm not saying just like. Only like in the beautiful sense of the word, but what just makes this person this person. And then, you know, we know that is what we're going to bring out as much as we can in the photograph. And then the idea of this exchange of trust between us and the sitter is the most precious, most beautiful experience because you have to establish this relationship very fast sometimes, you know, like, when there is a celebrity coming in, it's like you have five minutes to connect, and then within 15 minutes, you have to have the picture. And for us, that really intense focus on that person is what makes it it. That's why we're here, and it's why we're doing it. It's that exchange and that exchange of in our feelings of love and attention on the other, all the energy lines of everyone in the studio going towards that person and sort of lifting that person up to their most magnificent version is what we're in. And that's how we create. And it's the most precious, unbelievable, rewarding thing, whether it's in a fashion photograph or a portrait or any other type of shoot. It's that connection. That's also why our exhibition, our 40 year retrospective is called Can Love Be a Photograph? Because it's a statement for us. It is. It's, you know, as Simone Weil beautifully said, that, you know, attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity. And for us it's that it's that exchange. And then now with seeing the work, having it hang on the walls in a museum, there's this triangular relationship between us, the sitter and then the photograph and the viewer and how they communicate. So that moment is literally everything to us.

[Lauren Sherman]

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[Lauren Sherman]

Is this the first major retrospective of your work?

[Vinoodh Matadin]

No, no.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

We had a big show 15 years ago that opened in Amsterdam at the Foam Museum and then traveled to several different locations throughout the world. But I feel, personally, I think we both say that this is really a. This one, this 40 year one. It's kind of a new baseline for us.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

It's a futurespective.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Exactly. Not a retrospective, but a futurespective. And it feels for us the way we took two years to construct the exhibition. And it's thematically organized, not chronologically, so we kind of took time out of the equation. It's, of course, a historical exhibition, but there's time is not involved. You know, the rooms are organized per theme, per ideas that keep coming back to us that have been there from the beginning, but also the works that are there. Each work for us sort of holds clues for new work to make. So there's so many ideas in these pictures that we feel, oh, we could do a lot more with that, or we didn't fully build out that yet. And so to us, it's like an endless resource for more work.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

And it was actually amazing to study your own work for two years and really re editing it and really make it like what we said, future expected. Because from now on, this is the base of our work and this is how the future will look for us.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Plus the combination of all the, the work that's been made for art shows and others that have been made for clients or editorials, it's all there together and it all informs each other. And, you know, a lot of people might think, oh, I'm going to see a fashion photography exhibition. And actually the clothes are definitely there and you'll know them all, but they are secondary. It's really the people on the images and what the images say that is important to us. And you know, someone said to us as we were working on the show and they said, but, but why? Like, what if there's an incredible black dress by John Galliano? Why isn't that on the wall when, when, when the dress is so amazing? And we would say, like, yeah, it's just not enough. It, it. It's about what the person is doing in the picture, what the picture is saying that for us, then Holds the value for it to be on the wall.

[Lauren Sherman]

Forget what I was watching a few days ago or talking to someone about this specifically, that you need the person for the clothes or it doesn't work. I forget who was, oh, my God. Too many conversations and too many watching. Too much stuff. But it was. I don't know if every designer works like that, but it feels like the great ones often do, where they're really designing for the person in mind, not just for the cause the garment is cool or what have you. Do you all feel like Vinod because you were a designer and Inez because you went to design school and because you all understood design and fashion design in particular, do you think it's just made your work so different from every. Is that a big reason why it's so singular?

[Vinoodh Matadin]

Yes, I really think so. Also because we started both as fashion designers and also we play with the language up close, basically, and all the codes that comes with it. And then we always wonder who created all these codes and why are we still following them? You know, that is our big question always.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

But there's something so brilliant about fashion, I think, that we keep, you know, never getting enough. We never get enough of it, because essentially, we feel that nostalgia is at the base of old fashion. And, you know, there is this idea around when you formed your own identity in your teenage years. What music did you listen to? What movies did you see? What books did you read? Who were your friends? What were they wearing? I think that particular period of sort of shaping and collaging your own identity is what's at the base of everyone in a creative field where they draw from, and it's this sort of constant remix of things that we all remember into something new that fashion thrives on and in our opinion, is at the base of it. And we all recognize that in the 80s, a white shoe meant something very different than what it means now. But we all remember what it meant in the 80s. And then now when we put it in again, to see that thing that you remember but in a completely new context, is what keeps pushing fashion along. And I feel that that's the story, and that's what is, for us, endlessly exciting. Like, the little details, the small moments of, like Vimit said, the codes of fashion, the language of fashion is something we all recognize. And, you know, a lot of people like, no, I feel maybe less so. But, you know, people say, oh, fashion is so superficial. And we always say, what do you mean? Like, you get up every morning, you decide who you want to Be. Even if you're saying you're not interested in fashion, you're still thinking every morning, okay, what's my day like? Who do I want to be and what am I going to wear? To say that in one instant, without words, I'm already saying, oh, I'm, you know, today I'm this person, or today I'm feeling like this, or I want to project this. And I think that's the other thing for us that's so incredible in the work that we do is this idea of projection. Like we project ourselves, our ideas, our feelings, our emotions around nostalgia, around memories, onto the model that's in front of us in order to create this fashion image. And, you know, it's this exchange then that happens once we project our thing onto her and then whatever she gives back to us is what creates the picture.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

And fashion is the great thing of fashion is always changing the moment. You think, oh, now I know it, it's moving on already. It's like New York. It's the great thing of living in New York and working in fashion. I guess it's never the same.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, I want to ask you about both of these things. So you really have witnessed from the 80s, the last 40 years in fashion have been, I guess they are always transformative, but in terms of how the business works and you were part of that. You all are photographers for a lot of the really big advertising campaigns for many, many different brands over the years. And I'm curious, I really hate asking two part questions, but I will. A, what do you think of how the fashion has moved and changed? And then B, are you still inspired by it? Because I think it's harder today sometimes because of the direction it's moved in and become more corporate to feel as inspired by a collection. And I wonder as people who are involved in that image making process, A, what do you think of how it transformed? And B, do you think it's still as powerful as it once was?

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

I mean, I think personally that a couple years ago, corporate fashion has decided that fashion needed to become entertainment. And I think that's the world we're living in right now.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

They became production companies.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Exactly.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

And event companies.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

I think that's where we are at the moment. And I understand it from, you know, a corporate perspective of the world we live in today that is so oversetiated with imagery and all that. And the word I personally dislike the most in our current life is content. I think the word content sort of alludes to a vacant type of meaningless, filling holes, type of thing. And I think that's the one part I do not like about it is this need for content. We're always saying, you know, just, you might as well just put your logo on a tile on Instagram. It's the same thing. And why not do that and save your money for something else than to just make meaningless stuff that just keeps rotating. But, you know, I feel that, you know, this need for entertainment is now the way to communicate. And it's exciting in a way. It's amazing, you know, all the different possibilities, interactions that it's going into. I'm not sure if it's necessarily producing the clothes we all want to wear. And I really loved, like a while ago, a couple years ago, I think Vanessa Friedman, she wrote an amazing article saying that basically you could defy divide the fashion industry into two areas. One that is the service industry that it really set out to be from the beginning. And like, it's, it's, it's supposed to, you know, work for us to wear stuff, feel good, look good and be warm, or et cetera. And then there's the other side, where fashion has turned into merchant, souvenir of a group you belong to or a moment in time. And I think when a designer is able to combine the two, that's when it's really successful and has longevity. I think personally, like, someone like Virgil Abloh was very, very good at that and understood all the different notions of entertainment, merch, service, et cetera, and humanity. Humanity, kindness, growth, youthfulness, et cetera. And we were lucky to work with him on his first few campaigns when he started at Louis Vuitton. And I feel he kind of kept the fashion world in check because he was focusing on kindness and on development and on play and kind of unexpected moments. And I feel like we're really lucky that we experienced that with him, with his art director, Lina Kutzkowskaya and Christine Centeniera. It was a very, very beautiful, beautiful experience. And I think for us it was similar when we started working in 2020 with Chanel with Virginie VR, when she had to take over from Carl. And, you know, we worked with her on everything for the Prat de Porter except the clothes. But that relationship, again, was such a precious one because, you know, we would start our conversations with her, you know, way before she was designing the collection. It was more like images or movies we were looking at and would sort of bounce back ideas with her. And from there we would start to develop the invitation for the show. The images before the show would come out the video before the show would come out, then the set design for the show. Then we would be there when they would be doing the accessorization of the collection. We would put the bag, put the jewelry, once Virginie had figured out the clothes. And then, you know, we had designed the Runway experience, the movies after, then the ad campaign and then the catalog, then the windows of the shop. So we did, like, the whole entire thing with our studio here in New York and, you know, the team at Chanel. And it was one of the most incredible experiences for us. Cause it just had this sense of, let's go. Let's go make an endless amount of freedom in just communicating moments and ideas around what she was thinking. And she would always surprise us. We had communicated about things. Then we would come to Paris and they would show us the collection, like, the first bits of it. And we were like. We, let's say, for lack of a better example, had been talking about this blue suit that David Bowie wore at some point. So I'm thinking, okay, this blue suit's going to be there, right? Like, or this an idea around that. For Virginie, her mind had already gone 20 steps further and something completely different that did have the reference in it, but it came out on the other side. And we were always like, wow, okay, this mind works completely different. Because we're so used to being as good as your reference, right? Like, in our world, you know, with art directors, et cetera, it's like, who has the best references to create an image? And so. But for her, she would incorporate everything, but then spit out something completely different. And you'd be like, yes, of course. That woman would wear that. And she had such a strong feeling of who the Chanel client is and what they're wanting. Because I kept saying, like, please, can I just have a black jacket and a black pant? And she'd be like, the client of Chanel doesn't want that. They want something that says, I'm wearing Chanel. And, you know, it was such an incredible experience for us to see how she works, to see how that company works. And, you know, how it allowed us to sort of with her, sort of establish a certain language around it based on its past. Again, it's one of those rare instances where you feel a direct connection with someone. And we'd had that in the past together with Michael Le Marches from MM Paris, when we used to do the campaigns and catalogs for Yoji Yamamoto, where it was the opposite. We would not be in touch with Yoji. We never Even met him. But it was this thing where he would do a collection. We would work with Michael Maches, like, write a whole script about the woman and the ideas around the shoot. Do the shoot. They would produce the most exquisite catalog and then Yoshi would respond with a collection.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

But the whole process then was three months. We worked three months on one campaign with absolutely 100% freedom. And then he reacted on our campaign with his next collection. He said, oh, you're saying this. I'm making even the dress bigger next time, and the head will be in clouds.

[Lauren Sherman]

So it was a real dialogue.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Yeah, it was a real dialogue, but without talking.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

And the other thing, now I really am very excited about all these big brands becoming entertainment companies. That means it's time for small companies. The smaller companies will now come up that don't advertise. Maybe not even on Instagram, but it's where you go to buy your clothes. Yeah.

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[Lauren Sherman]

Are there any designers that you all are excited about right now who are coming up?

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

I mean, I think there's. Yeah, there's that thing where, you know, for wearing things, you know me, I only wear Nellie Lotan.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

And me, I only wear husbands from past.

[Lauren Sherman]

That's funny. I just met Julian, the CEO this morning.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

They are the best they're going to be.

[Lauren Sherman]

So he's amazing.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

They're incredible. Yeah, they're incredible. And you know, that's the thing, like, there are small personal. What I think is so brilliant when you go to the husband's store. There's a giant table, a working table in the middle of the store. They're all sitting at it. They're working. So you get into that store, and you don't feel like someone's watching you. Oh, what is she looking at? Which rack? And can I help you? No, it's like you're part of it. And you get in there and there's no stress. It's this wonderful experience of, like, I see Vinod go in there and go through all the vintage tweets and then, you know, get fitted for a suit. And, I mean, it's such beautiful style, and it has a permanence to it that is truly exquisite.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

And they're building a community of a group of friends all over the world. You know, we don't even know each other, but we all like the same things.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. It's true. And it's interesting because on the face of it, you could say Neelie and husbands are very different. Is one is half the business is made to measure or what have you. But there's something about the value in. They both bring a lot of value in what they make. And it's clothes for real people.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Exactly. And that's what's.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

So I'm always fascinated that Ines wears Nelly. Every designer ask her, who make your pants, who make your blouse? Who is that jacket? Everyone ask.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

It's just because it's so easy. And, you know, I always say, like, clothes do save your life. We all know it. You have an event or a thing to go to, and you're like, oh, my God, what am I wearing?

[Vinoodh Matadin]

Boom.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

A jacket from Millie. I'm good. Same. I mean, obviously with a Chanel jacket, same thing. I realized that. Right.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

So that's good. And if I wear husbands, some people stalk me on the streets, like, oh, my God, cool jacket. Who makes them? You know, because they see the quality.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

And that's another thing is, like, the quality is very important.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Yeah. And I see also, like, don't you think that, like, Phoebe fio, I think, is doing it the best on that level? I feel like she really. I mean, I think that's just the most unbelievable example of not having to be an entertainment company, not having to be a designer who is present, who does interviews, who, you know, shows up at parties or et cetera. She's completely elusive, you could say, underground. And her clothes, again, do that thing where it's being of service to us and kind of have this merch quality, this idea of, like, I'm part of this Club. I, you know, I've been to this concert and, you know, you're. You're part of it. And I think she's absolutely brilliant. I love their. Their imagery. I think it's such a strong language and it has influenced everybody.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

And there's another young brand, this young kid from Germany, and the name of the brand is no fate. He's acting 25 years. He makes everything himself.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

He's in Paris too, right?

[Vinoodh Matadin]

Yeah. It's amazing.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Amazing.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

Has no stores, that one.

[Lauren Sherman]

I don't know.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Yeah, he did. He did all the clothes for Travis Scott's tour. It's. It's mostly Gene, but. Incredible. Incredible. He's very good.

[Lauren Sherman]

The question of the Phoebe thing brings up something for me and I agree on her so much. It's been so amazing to watch that all happen. As image makers, I love to ask people who are photographers or involved in photography or styling or any sort of creating creative direction. There's so much access now and you all embrace technology very early on and used it to create your art, but it makes it so everything is within reach and any reference is within reach. And you don't really. You just do you Google image search or what have you, and you can get it. How has that affected your process? And do you think that that is good for image making? Do you think it's created a challenge in image making or both? I'm curious how you all feel about the fact that it's easier now to do the kind of research that everyone needs to do to make this stuff work.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

Maybe it becomes. Everything becomes so normal and a little bit boring because. And there's less and less a point of view because everyone is copying each other. It's like this endless recycling, recycling. And in the end, everything looks the same.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Yeah, I think. I mean, I feel like there's two sides to the conversation. I think, personally, I really love that because of the iPhone now, having such an amazing camera in general or smartphones in general, that now everyone is truly seeing. Everyone is. And everyone goes through this idea of, oh, I love that I'm going to take a picture of it and then it's with me forever.

[Lauren Sherman]

Right.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

I'm holding onto it. And for us, that's really at the base of. Of our work is that, you know, you want to hold on to something, you want to own it, you want to make it, because you love it so much. And that's part of this idea of referencing and nostalgia and using things from the past to inform a new image is that you kind of Want to. Want to be there, or you wish you'd been there, so you're recreating a part of it to experience it again. And I think it's, in a way that's. Everyone's doing it and that's happening on every level, in every way, which I think is a positive thing. I love that visual culture is the main culture right now, and I think that's a. It's positive. But I do think, like what we said before, this sort of filler content thing is diluting brands and is diluting their. Their strength and their. Their ideas around image and pushing things forward. I feel there is. There is, sadly. Yeah, it's. It's sort of dumbed down a little, or there's a common denominator. And similarly, I. I don't know, I feel like for us, for instance, someone like Helmut Lang, who obviously we work with, together with Madeline Ward, you know, we did some of his campaigns and all that, and, you know, that thought process around making the collection, the casting, the shows, the advertising, you know, the use of buying imagery that already existed, like Mapplethorpe's stuff or Louise Bourgeois, et cetera, and incorporating that in an ad campaign with images of models backstage at the show and, you know, newly made stuff in a studio, like the fact that he blew all that open, obviously inspired and pushed forward by the Japanese and their ways of thinking about advertising, that was more associative. And to us, that is the most interesting part is when image making and advertising is more on an associative level than on, like, this is the bag and now go buy it. But rather, what is the atmosphere around a brand and around the items that you want to sell? And how do I translate that in something that triggers more emotions than just saying, okay, this bag has a golden buckle, et cetera, et cetera.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

I think also the dangers if you use only celebrities, that every brand becomes the same because we all. Then everybody's running after the same hot ones and they're everywhere, and, you know, if you can afford them, they will be there.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Yeah.

[Ad Read Announcer]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

I wonder if the reliance on celebrity will start to lessen because the ROI doesn't feel as clear. Yeah, who knows? I might. It's one of these things we always think it's, we've reached the tippy top of something and then there's 10 more miles.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

But I mean, in our case, in our experience with image making, when it comes to celebrities, I think what we don't understand in the point of view of a brand is that the celebrity has the power to kill an image or approve it. And I think that's where this starts to become a very slippery slope to this vanilla idea of what is beautiful or what does this person think is beautiful? Whereas, you know, we're like, sometimes you need to, you know, not hand power over to a celebrity who is like what Vinod says is a brand ambassador this year, but if another brand offers more money, they'll be the brand ambassador of that brand. So I think it's when the power is handed over to anyone else but the designer and a photography team and a CEO of a company, it starts to get into a very slippery slope. I think

[Lauren Sherman]

I wanted to briefly talk before we go about all of your collaborators, because we talked a little bit about Michael and Matthias and. Mm. And I know they worked on the book with you as well. And both the book you did. I don't know, maybe for the first big exhibit too, but how important it seems like collaboration with your subjects and with the people around you who are some of the people who you've collaborated in. The two of you, obviously, since you're with each other constantly, which I find amazing and very inspiring to see that kind of love. But what does collaboration mean to your work? And who are some of the other people that you've worked with over the years that have been important, formative in your sort of creation of your body of work?

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

I mean, I think collaboration is at the base of it, you know, for us, we are very excited by that. I think that's what keeps us going where neither of us are the people that are happy just sitting alone, you know, in a studio and making something. I think it's. It's the team, it's the exchange. Yeah.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

And it's a learning part of each other.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Yeah. And that's what I want to say. Dofi, like, don't you think that our lighting director, Yudoka Star, we have a lighting director who's with us since day one, since 9 11.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

I know him since he was 17.

[Lauren Sherman]

Wow. So he's like a third person in your marriage.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

And so he really is, you know, he lives in Holland and he flies

[Vinoodh Matadin]

in wherever Ming shoot. He's there.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Yeah. And already since 91, he's done that. And it's kind of incredible for us because, you know, he of course went to photography school and wanted to be a photographer. But then, you know, maybe a year or two into working with us realized, like, I'm actually happy, you know, behind the scenes and not being the director, but, you know, making sure. That all the technology, the lighting, the equipment, everything is on point and is constantly evolving. And he's been doing that for us, like, since 91. And it's the great thing is he

[Vinoodh Matadin]

has all the worries of all the technical stuff during a shoot. This frees up a headspace for us that we can only be focused on what we have on the person in the first place.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

So that's what's so terrific about that relationship, that it's like we feel so supported by him and by all the other people in our team. But then I think in general, yeah, apart from Michael Maches and our director like Lina Kutzkowskaya, who is truly there. They both are. You know, it's this idea of doing something together. There's plenty of times when you're in a team and you're kind of thrown out in front of the lions because, you know, there's been an idea that's been sketched and photoshopped or AI together as a concept. And, you know, there's no way in reality that you can actually realize it, but then you're kind of on your own. And there's definitely a difference in art directing style in that sense, specifically with people like Michael Amaches of MM and Dina Kutzkowski that are. You're in it together. And there's a constant exchange of evolving ideas and imagery that is so free and special. And I think in the beginning, when we started working with Michael Amechas for Balansaga, when Nicolas was starting at Balanschaga, and, you know, no one had ever heard of him, and it was all at the start. Those memories are really special because we just sort of formed together the language, you know, of image making and what that brand could become. And those memories are very sweet of even of. I remember one day Nicolas sent me the bag, you know, the one famous Bonusacker bag that's still there now. And he sent it me as a present. And I opened the box, I'm going, what is this vintage bag? Like, why is this cool? And I didn't understand. I put it away. And then maybe half a year later or a year later or whatever, I wore it out in New York. And so I went to a store and everybody fainted that I had that bag. And then I realized that he was so spot on, like, early on with understanding what that could be. But also he had just send it to, I think, Kate Moss, maybe 30 people. Yeah, just 30 people had gotten the bag. And so it created this, like, early influencer idea of, like, only a Few people had it and. Oh, my God. And then like a year later, they brought it out into the stores and everyone ran to get it. And, you know, I think it's those early moments where someone sort of clicked really clearly on what. What's going to happen. It's just so special. It's amazing to have been there.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

But also, people like, you know, Bjork and Lady Gaga and Madonna even, you know, they really help changing our vision of how we see people and how we see images, I guess.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Yeah. And artistry also.

[Lauren Sherman]

Right.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Because you kind of see. Exactly. Those three that you mentioned are really, truly artists. Right. They are so convinced of what they're doing that they have this capacity of pulling you in and pulling in everyone. Like, specifically. I think Lady Gaga is extraordinary in, like, engaging. Even the guy that comes bring the catering into her idea around this shoot and what we're portraying and who she is in this particular segment of the video or whatever it is we're making. She has this complete conviction of her art, which then pulls in everybody. And I think that's when, you know, when there is no insecurity, when there is just this stream of ideas that just pulls in. The whole world is one of the most magical things to experience. We're so lucky that we were there. And that, like Phoenix says someone like York, you know, back in the day, said to us, I know you've never done a video, but I think you could. And here's the song and figure it out. And yeah, that was that.

[Lauren Sherman]

Well, my kid is ringing the doorbell here because he needs to let him in, but really quickly, how long is the exhibit running for? Is it. It's still on, right?

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Yeah, it's until September 6th. In the Hague. In Holland.

[Lauren Sherman]

In the Hague. In Holland, of course. So everybody, check it out. Get the book. Can Love Be a Photograph. It's a really amazing book. I love how you used all this, like, mixed media. It feels like collage, like a scrapbook almost. It's really, really special. And congratulations to you two on everything. And thank you for all your contributions to the crazy fashion industry. It wouldn't be the same without you, that's for sure. And this was such a pleasure.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Thank you so much.

[Lauren Sherman]

Thank you. It was. It was a real pleasure. Yes, thank you again. And. And we didn't even talk about New York, but next time.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

So I should talk about it. Yes. Okay. Thank you.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

Do another one.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes.

[Inez van Lamsweerde]

Thank you again. Ciao.

[Vinoodh Matadin]

Bye.

[Lauren Sherman]

Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. The show is produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, producer Matt Maya Tribbett and director of editorial operations Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, Kelly Turner and Bob Tabador. Pandora Jewelry brings the sparkle to your summer now with even better prices. Enjoy up to 50% off select styles, from personalized pieces to must have favorites made for the summer. Timeless designs that shine with you through every moment, wherever the summer takes you. Shop in store or online now through July 5th. Terms and conditions apply. Visit pandora.net for details.