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- [00:00]
A
Whether you're renting or paying a mortgage, one of your biggest monthly expenses should be working harder for you. That's where BILT comes in. BILT is the membership for where you live that rewards you with points on every housing payment wherever you live. They started by rewarding rent, and now in 2026, you can earn points on mortgage payments too. Every payment earns you points you can redeem toward flights with top travel partners, Lyft rides, purchases on Amazon.com and more. Personally, I'd use my points for a weekend away. It just makes all these like everyday expenses feel more exciting. It's something to look forward to. One of the coolest parts, BILT members get access to a neighborhood concierge. It can help book restaurant reservations, sign you up for fitness classes, or even help you discover a new spot nearby. All the while, you're being rewarded at over 45,000 partners. It's such a nice added perk. It's simple. Being a renter and now owning a home is better. With Bilt, join the membership for where you live at joinbilt.com fashion that's J-O-I N B I L T.com fashion and make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you. Yes, yes, we know that fashion people love to spend money, but we also know that fashion people love a deal. So what if you could take that a step further and actually earn rewards while you shop? That's exactly what Rakuten does. It's the most rewarding way to shop because you earn cash back and rewards on almost everything you buy. We're talking fashion, beauty, travel, even things like concert tickets or everyday essentials. Rakuten partners with a ton of your favorite brands like Macy's, Sephora, Nike, Expedia, even places like CVS and Target. So chances are you're already shopping there anyway. The difference is now you can earn while you do it. And it's super easy and free to sign up. Literally just an email. You can shop online through the app or even use their browser extension. Plus, you can stack your cash back on top of sales and coupons to maximize your savings. Then you can redeem your rewards however you want, check PayPal, gift cards, even points. It just makes spending feel a little smarter. Join for free@rakuten.com or download the Rakuten app to start saving money today. Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Crick's fashion and beauty memo line sheet, and today with me on the show is architect, designer Interiors person Raf Cardenas. We're talking fashion in the 90s, fashion now, retail, design, decorating, true luxury, and so much more. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the art world and much more. If you're interested listeners of Fashion People get a discount. Just go to Puck News Fashion people to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday everyone. Yesterday I was in Florence for Kering's Capital Markets Day day, which I've been calling Fete de la Caring as a joke, hoping it would catch on, but of course I'm not sure anyone thinks I'm funny. Anyway, Kering's new CEO Luca Deo spent several hours on Thursday explaining his go forward plan dubbed Reconquering, as in Recon Caring. So it's reconquering with a k to about 200 people. There were buy side and sell side analysts, which I am told don't always mix. And then there was a bunch of media and we actually got a separate session where we could ask Luke a bunch of questions about his strategy and he just spent the whole day explaining himself. He's like, very straightforward, very frank in a way that most luxury executives aren't. And what I got from it was that he prizes efficiency. He's very industrial, he comes from Renault, he's an autos guy. Like yes, of course he cares about that stuff. He's trying to balance that with what matters in luxury, which is desirability. And he is even compensating. Like some of the bonus for these executives is based on the desirability of their brand, which will be calculated in. He did go through how, but we don't need to go through it here, but basically going to determine is your brand desirable? If it's not, you don't get as much of a bonus or whatever. It's interesting, it's completely new to this world. He really believes it's going to work and honestly let's hope it does because the only brand that's doing really well right now is Chanel and stuff needs to change. So let's see if the changes he wants to make work, you will be able to read a lot more about his strategy and also some stuff behind the scenes. Some reporting I've done in Monday's line sheet. I also on Thursday did for the Inner Circle, did my like five big takeaways. So if you want to know more, hit it up. You know how to subscribe. Anyway, I'm really glad I went. Florence is so gorgeous. The light, the light here, the light here is so pretty. But you know, I stopped by the Rothko show and just went to the main one. There are three sections but it is incredibly affecting and I almost cried, which I haven't done in. I forget the last time. It's definitely during a movie. That's really the only time I cry. But it's amazing. It's a really beautiful show, honestly. Come here, deal with the tourist. It's totally worth it to. To get to that show. So Tuesday's episode will be recorded in Milan where I am attending and kind of covering Milan Design Week Salone. So it'll be fun. We have a very special guest who knows about that world and how fashion has sort of infiltrated that week. Really excited. It'll be so nice. Have a good weekend, guys. Raph Decardenas, welcome to Fashion People.
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B
Thank you for having me.
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A
Lauren, what'd you have for breakfast this morning?
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B
I had a banana protein almond butter shake and two ginger shots, which is my breakfast every day.
- [07:00]
A
That sounds very healthy. Are you, are you big into protein?
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B
Well, it's like, that's the thing, right? Like you have to have like, you know, 200 grams of protein a day and it's hard to get. I'm not hungry at breakfast, so it's like an easy time to like have the thing and have some energy. I also, I'm like a very anxious person by nature, so I don't drink more than one cup of coffee a day.
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A
It's very smart. I think I need to dial back a little bit. I've been drinking more because I've been sleeping less and it's not a good combo.
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B
No, it's awful. It's actually worse for your anxiety and stuff. For me anyway, it's true.
- [07:39]
A
Well, thank you for the non official medical advice. I think it's. It's good. It's funny because I obviously am very familiar with your work, but you also are a person who like has come up in my life. Then again, and you're friends with a lot of people who I write about or know and I was excited to be able to speak to you. About your work. I did my prep work with Jen Brill.
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B
Oh, funny. Well, you probably know too much.
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A
Well, I know some fun stuff because I said, well, what would you want me to ask? And so she really gave me this sort of Non published biography, 32nd biography of you and had some great insights into things that I should ask about. But tell me. You're obviously one of the most important architects working today, but in particular in fashion and retail. But you've done many different things creative wise. I mean, do you consider yourself an architect or a creative director or a mix of both or what would you, how would you describe what you do?
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B
I don't know. I. I resist description describing it because I started in fashion and then I. I kind of went to architecture school thinking that I would go back to fashion. I thought that I was gonna like, come back as like an Alex dipatak kind of, kind of person and. And this happened. So I'm not. I mean, I'm trained architect. I don't, I'm not. They don't want me and I don't want them. So we're good. I think that I, I would say I'm a creative director. I just say designer, for lack of a better word. Mostly interior designer lately, like, decorator is coming back and I'm like, cool with that too. I'm like, I'm a decorator. I'm your decorator. It feels like 80s and cool.
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A
Why do you say they don't want me about architect? The architecture world, I think the architecture world.
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B
The architecture world's like very. The generalization is very macho. Got it. Even when it's like being aware of not being macho, even like when it's like aware of being queer, it's still macho. It's still this like, perspective of manliness. And I think that I'm interested in fashion, which was my always, my, you know, the thing that I always wanted to be part of. Right. And that feels superfluous. Like interior design feels to architecture. Interior design is like the enemy of architecture in many ways. Right. Like, it's like the drag of. It's like you're putting lipstick on something and I want to put lipstick on things. I want to. That's like the fun for me is like the, the trying on costumes, right? Like the dress up, the cosplay or whatever that opportunity is.
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A
Using the word decorator is like almost even more of a rebellion against the architects.
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B
I think it is now. Yeah.
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A
So where did you grow up and why did you want to be in Fashion.
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B
I grew up in New York, born and raised. And I. I think I was, like, I was drawn to. Well, I was like, you know, gay at a. Like, always. Like, I don't remember a time when I wasn't. And I think I was drawn to feminine things like dolls, hair. I was actually talking about this with. I met this, like, young hairstylist recently, and I was like, I, like, knew a lot about hair. I mean, I don't know that much about hair, but I, like. He was like, how did. How do you know so much? And I was like, I was obsessed with long hair when I was a kid. Like, obsess with long hair. I would, like, if I found a wig, like, and I would put, like, my mom's clothes on and, like, makeup and stuff, and. Which I think is common for gay boys or boys or not gay boys. I think it's common, like, trying on. I also played with Star wars figures. I made dresses for Princess Leia out of aluminum foil and things like that. Like, I can remember one shoulder, like, Dynasty inspiration. I think it was something that. That. That drew me because I was paying attention to. I was paying to downtown culture, right? Paying attention to the world that I wasn't necessarily part of that my family wasn't part of. But I liked it. And I was always, like, in school downtown. I went to school in the West Village on Christopher street, ironically enough. And, yeah, I remember, like, Details magazine. And I think that fashion was the thing that in many ways brought art, culture, music culture together. Right. It was like the people that were in the know, in that world dressed a certain way that weren't the people, like, weren't like, the way that, like, my friend's parents dressed or, you know, and I. And I think that that kind of identity that, like, you could signify something to other people by how you dress has always been a draw to me, I guess.
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A
Did you have something you wanted to do or you just, like, wanted to get in? Did you intern places? How did you get into the industry?
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B
So I. I interned at or Bay when I was. When I was in high school at Elizabeth Arden, which is weird.
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A
Oribe was owned by Elizabeth Arden at the time. Or maybe it still isn't.
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B
I don't know if it was owned by Elizabeth Arden. It was at the Elizabeth Arden salon on Fifth Avenue. Oh, yeah. It was like the. It was the hair salon there.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And long story about how that happened. I needed, like, some. I mean, this is a weird thing to say. I needed some community service credits for. For school and somehow my mom made that count.
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A
That's amazing.
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B
Anyway, it was the greatest thing that ever happened to me. Because at the time, I mean, I was. I'm 51. That was 91. That was like, you know, Versace, big hair. Like, it was pretty exciting. And, you know, supermodels were coming in, and, I don't know, it was like. It was a. It was an exciting time. It felt also like I felt like I was in the center of the world. And in some ways, I think that the world's changed and information's become decentralized. But I think I was in the center of the world somehow. And in this, like, kind of cockpit of fashion from this, like, vantage point of, like, image ability and kind of. So that was probably my first foray. And then I went to risd and I was. And I did apparel there.
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A
And then you came back. I heard you worked at Calvin Klein.
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B
I did.
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A
In the 90s, which is. I did top of mind right now on the Internet and in, like, the. What's left of the monoculture. What was it like then? Have you watched Love Story?
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B
Of course. It's actually interesting because I've been in touch with, like, a fair amount of Calvin people, like, through the years. Like, I. You know, I haven't lost touch with, like, everyone, but I have. Our dialogue has increased recently. Cause we're like, oh, my God. Like, that is what Calvin's office looked like. Like, that really is. I think that, like, the. I would say that the Calvin Klein offices. I think the set design is really good. There were no glass blocks. There were no glass blocks that I saw on 205 West 39th Street.
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A
Yes.
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B
I can't believe I remember. 205 West 39th Street. But they did their research. Like, the black paper clips, calla lilies and orchids. There were more. There were only white post. Its Futura Light 9.5. All correspondence. Futura Light 9.5. Never bowled anything. You know, those things seem like a pain in the ass, but they were kind of an incredible amount of rigor and branding. Like, I think that, like, it was sort of to create, like, this lifestyle of Calvin Klein that you always. I mean, our offices, they were, you know, like. They were like John Pawson, you know, super minimal. You couldn't have. I mean, if. If you had, like, stuff on your desk, you'd get, like, fired. Maybe. That's not a nice thing to say. I don't know if anyone actually got fired, but it. But you'd get it. Like, it was not okay. It was not okay. It was definitely not okay.
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A
What were you doing there? What department did you work in?
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B
I worked in jeans first and then collection. I worked for Michael Makary. If you know him. He was like the head of men's genes at the time. And then I worked for Robert Riguto and Andy Huey in. In Men's Collection.
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A
And what was it like at the time, working at Calvin during the sort of height of minimalism? And also Helmet and Jill Sander and all the stuff that was happening in Europe at the time, and Prada, all of that and Marc Jacobs coming up, like, all of that happening at once. What was Calvin's, in your view, role in that system at that point?
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B
I think Calvin was the most commercial version of it. Right. And I think also. Also the most democratic. And I have to say, Calvin leaned into those things. Like, he may not cop to it now or I don't know, but he definitely, like, if you were in a production fitting, like, he would say, this jacket with a concealed placket is awesome, but it would maybe far more commercial if it had a zipper behind the concealed placket instead of buttons. Like, no one's gonna. If someone's trying it on and they have to, like, try on buttons, they're gonna be like, this is annoying. So he definitely always had that commercialism. And look, there were people there. I mean, that was my first job. So I didn't. I didn't. It's the only place I worked. But there were people like Andy Huey was. Came from Prada. There wasn't anyone from Helmut and Jill that I can think of. But there was awareness of Helmut and Jill for sure as sort of being perhaps the more. The more fashion, the more forward. But I think understanding that we could play with that for the show. But we also had, like, you know, huge dress shirt business, huge tie business. And I think that at the time I was kind of like doe eyed. Like, I was. I think in my mind I was probably like, oh, Jill and Helmet are better. Right? Like, I wish that I worked there, but I think I learned this idea that, like, you can. You can honor your interests and have integrity, but also make money. And not just like in a kind of compulsive, egocentric way, but like, to support your team and, you know, help other people and stuff. So I think it was nice that there was like a little bit. I mean, you know, Joe McKenna was a stylist when I started. I mean, he was also the stylist of Jill Sander, but he also understood the Brief, you know, And I think it was. I think it was that. That thing. In fact, I actually remember this kind of funny. This funny moment where we were in a. In a fitting in Milan, like, just like, two days before the show when, like, fitting everything. It was like, you know, also, like, shows that, like,110.110 looks for a men's show. It was like, pretty nuts, like.
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A
And you did the shows in Milan for men's.
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B
We did the shows in Milan the whole time I was there. I don't know if I don't know how long. I know that when I started, like, the first show had just happened in Milan. So, like, it was like a new thing, but it had to do with Gabriela Forte, who was the new CEO who had come in from. From Armani. Anyway, I forgot what I was saying, but. But it was.
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A
We were talking. Sorry, I interrupted you.
- [20:00]
B
Oh, no, it's fine. Yeah, no, it was like. It's actually a pretty. I actually quote this often because I was at the time. I don't know if you remember, like, Banana Republic was, like, super. It was, like, basically heterosexual. Yeah, it was like, super, like, skinny, you know, skinny black. And someone said in a production fitting. In a. Sorry, not a production fitting, a show fitting. That one look looked very Banana Republic. And they meant it as a bad thing.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And Calvin said, you say that as though it's a bad thing, but Banana Republic took our business. They took the business that we were unable to deliver at that price point. And I. It always, like, stuck with me because, like, you think you're Calvin Klein. Like, what could you possibly care about Banana Republic? But he was a businessman. Yeah, like, he. Or he is a businessman. You know, I mean, he sold his company for billions of dollars. And I think that. And certainly Jill and Helmut did not do that. Yeah, right. So there's a kind of plus and minus in that scale. Right.
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A
And it comes back to this idea of, like, what fundamentally is a fashion business in the US versus what it means in Europe. And I do think now that's even clearer because of the way the industry has sort of split. But what it comes down to is here or in the US it came from 7th Avenue and this idea of sportswear, and there it came from the idea of couture. And that's still the thing that makes it different. And also what the motivation is of the people who run these businesses. Most of the businesses in the U.S. they're built by traditional entrepreneurs who want them to be big and grow. There are many people who are designers who launch businesses in Europe. I mean, in the US Too, but, like, who aren't probably. Who aren't really entrepreneurs who are more focused on, I don't know, refining one thing. They're not as holistic thinkers or what have you. But I think it's interesting to hear that because obviously, when I was growing up, I was interested in the European designers, but Calvin and Halston and Ralph Lauren and Michael Kors, those were all. They were big stars designers, and they
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B
kind of invented that.
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A
Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting talking about Calvin because the things he said in recent years about Uniqlo being like, it's great. Why would you buy anything else? It reflects that. But. And you hear so many stories about people and, you know, the. No mess on the desk, but the reality of how they actually operate is coming from, like, a place of. I don't know, there's, like, a humanity in what you just said about Banana Republic.
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B
I actually remember one. One time, like, this teacher at. And RISD Apparel design was. It was a different place when I was there than what it is now. We actually. I mean, I. I have still friends that went through that program at the time, and I think the program is much more dynamic and probably has a lot more in common with, like, you know, Pratt and Parsons and. And other, you know, schools that feel more connected to the industry. It wasn't at the time, really, but I remember, like, one teacher said, and, you know, we all wanted to do, like, Comme des Garcons. We all wanted, you know, John Gallo. Like, I was John Galliano. Like, I just did gowns with, like, that were draped and like, I. That was like, all I. But I remember, like, a teacher saying once, and probably, you know, only resonated on me, like, resonated with me later on. She said, well, this is all fun and good, but we have to clothe people. Like, the business is responsible for clothing everyone, not just rich people.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And so I think that, like, having a Uniqlo versus Banana Republic is arguably still for rich people. Right. But having something like Uniqlo that is kind of like, oh, you can, like, look clean, nice, elevated. It feels put together like that. That is something that everyone should have, you know? And it's funny when you, you know, you think of, like, this. You know, I don't know. Like, I feel like there's this. I'm gonna say something that people might freak out of, but I feel like the fashion industry is, like, always, like, attacked for, like, fast fashion and all these things. And I was actually talking about a fast fashion brand that I will not talk about with recently with someone. And you know, people were down on it. And this one mom was like, well, my kid's a dancer. And that's like where like they go through leotards. Like really that's where they get them because they're, you know, 15 bucks and they wear them three times and they're ripped and like so I don't know, there's this reality of life, right. And I don't know that it's like our responsibility as it's our responsibility as people to care about those things. But like life is complicated, right? You have to. Dancers need leotards.
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A
Totally. And this came up on social media the other day where someone was talking about, oh, there's, it's either Zar or Chanel now. And the. Sure, that's true that like the middle is sort of Banana Republic is hollowed out. It exists. But like in the, especially in. It's like the eye of the consumer is so minimized at to what it used to be or what have you. But I think the thing that people forget is people expect to pay far less for clothing than they used to. Like a pair of jeans that cost $29 in 1950 still costs $29 today. That's not the way it works. And then the other part is they expect to own a lot of clothes. So I think there's been so many announcements about big designers working with fast fashion houses recently. Obviously the Galliano and Zara thing. But more than that, and I personally think like this is what the consumer wants and if it's made in a way that's like, I agree, like I think you have to do what you feel is right for you ethically or whatever. But also this is also a reflection of how the consumer culture has changed. And it's amazing that people can are going to be able to access John Galliano's designs. Like, it's incredible.
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B
I'm going to buy it. I totally love John Galliano. Yeah. And as I said, I think people at every price point want to have live their day to day lives in a kind of dignified way. But I think also like the idea of like fantasy, right? Like rich people get this, get to like buy a gown for $10,000, wear it one day and they have that fantasy. Why can't people have that fantasy that have, you know, a hundred dollars to spend or something? You know, like it was like the, like I feel like the top shop mentality, right. Like Saturday it was full on Saturdays because people were buying their look for Saturday night. I have to say, as a person in the world, I love that same. Like that, that sense of community that we all want to look good on Saturday night. That's awesome.
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A
I agree. I'm trying to find my Saturday night boots right now. Maybe. Maybe you have suggestions. We can talk offline afterwards.
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B
Freelance.
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A
Pardon?
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B
Free member. Like freelance. I don't know if you're not as old as me, but freelance. Freelance was like the. It was the shoes that, like Karen Bassett Worth was wearing. It was the shoes that count that Calvin Klein shoes, like, were looking at. It was like a brand in the. In the 90s that everyone was obsessed with. Freelance.
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A
This is exactly what I need.
- [28:11]
B
Yeah.
- [28:14]
A
You know when your hair turns out just right and it kind of sets the tone for the whole day, I feel like we're all chasing that, but none of us want to spend an hour getting to that point. That's why I've been really, really into lawn chair lately. I switched over to their Axia hair dryer, and the first thing I noticed was how compact and lightweight it is. It just makes styling feel way more manageable, especially on those mornings when you're rushing but still want your hair to look put together. And I've been using their gloss shock treatment along with it, which has been such a nice addition for my super coarse, super curly, super frizzy hair. I'll spray it on damp hair, then blow dry, and it just helps everything look smoother and more polished like that. Fresh from the salon kind of finish. But at home, which is extremely hard for me to get, it's been amazing. What's great is how these two work together. The heat from the dryer activates the treatment, and you end up with soft, glossy hair in under 20 minutes. It's simple, it's quick, and it just fits into real life. I definitely recommend it to anyone who wants an easy routine that still delivers super, super nice results. Go to launchhair.com and use code fashion to get 20% off your first order. That's L-A-N-G-E-H-A-I R.com and use code fashion for 20% off at checkout. Have you ever felt like you were living just a B or B plus life? It's so dangerous to live that. More dangerous than a B or a C plus life. Because when you're living a B or B plus life, you don't change it.
- [29:46]
B
You think it's good enough. Is it?
- [29:48]
A
I'm Susie Welch. I host a podcast called Becoming you. People think, okay, an A plus life
- [29:54]
B
is not available to me, but there is a way.
- [29:57]
A
We are all in the process of becoming ourselves.
- [30:01]
B
Listen to Becoming youg wherever you get your podcasts.
- [30:06]
A
Okay, so you, you're at Calvin. Did you go to architecture school from there or did you, did you hop around before? Like, when did you realize you. You didn't want to do design? You want clothing design. You wanted to do something more with interiors and architecture.
- [30:24]
B
I didn't. Interiors and architecture was like, never a consideration. I probably, I really condensed, really distilled. I. I read this article about the Bilbao Guggenheim in the Times that Herbert Mouchamp wrote where he twins the building with Marilyn Monroe. He says the building is the reincarnation of Marilyn Monroe. And I was excited by that. That kind of, you know, he's the architecture critic of the Times. He wrote about it in this very, like, sociological way. Cultural. Like, this building is voluptuous and, and it could only have been made by an American. Like, he's like, it was only an American that has no care for the rules would. Would design a building like this. That probably piqued my interest. I thought I, you know, I was a kind of like. I thought I was like a smarty pants. And I thought that if I went to like, architecture school and studied like, French post structuralist theory, I would be a really good fashion show designer. And it was the era of, like, it was the era of like, you know, those Hussein Shalayan shows, you know, Alexander McQueen. I think in, in New York, it was like Miguel Adravar was like an. An imitation of Christ. They were doing like, you know, cool, cool things that. Honestly, I mean, I actually always say this. Like, I'm like, in the 90s, like, New York was the cool fashion week.
- [31:45]
A
Yeah. That's interesting. Was that before. Was that when Helmet came? Or even before Helmet came?
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B
Helmet came. So Helmet came around that time because I remember, I'm pretty sure I remember when Calvin split the fashion calendar. Calvin said, I don't want to show at the end of Paris because all the, all the dollars are used up, the budgets are used up. So I'm showing before all the shows. And that's how New York Fashion Week moved to February, because it used to be at like the end of March or something. And so he did it, or Helmut did it. I don't remember which one. One of them did it first and then the other one, the other one followed suit. And then there were probably like three New York Fashion weeks where there were two. There was like, Calvert helmet and like, one other person. And then like, all the show, like, you know, London.
- [32:41]
A
My God, I didn't know that. That's so funny.
- [32:44]
B
Yeah. It's a crazy. Do you know Bonnie Morrison?
- [32:48]
A
Of course. Yeah.
- [32:50]
B
She remembers this timeline of everything. Like, every. It's like she. She could tell you, like, what. When Tom Ford was, like, appointed at. At. At Gucci. And like. She's a encyclopedia.
- [33:02]
A
She is. She's been a guest on Fashion People multiple times.
- [33:05]
B
Oh, awesome.
- [33:06]
A
Yes. I'm a big fan of Me too.
- [33:09]
B
I went to college with her.
- [33:11]
A
Oh, wow.
- [33:11]
B
Not to age her. She is younger than me.
- [33:15]
A
I'm aware. I know her. I was with her on her birth or, like the day after her birthday this year. So I'm very acutely aware of her age. Happy birth. Late birthday to Bonnie. So you were inspired by this. It's amazing. You were inspired by an article, first of all, because I don't think that happens anymore.
- [33:35]
B
It may. I don't. I don't know that's true. But. Well, I think there's just a lot of information. I mean, I. I get inspired by things I read.
- [33:42]
A
Yeah. What do you read?
- [33:45]
B
I read mostly science fiction. Like, I read a lot of science fiction. I. I think it, like, takes my. I don't know. Like, I like. I like it. I actually watch a lot of science fiction, too. I don't tend to watch reality TV so much because I. I just like the fantasy aspect. I also feel like reality TV is like a live version of the Internet, like, people hating on each other and kind of. And I'm trying not. I'm trying to just. I'm trying to create a culture of love around myself and around everything. But I read it. I read, like, everything I actually read. I can't believe how much I read, given how much I work. But I. I do read. And I can't say that I think of that. It's not so. It's not so conscious. But my team was always like, how did. Like, how do you have. When do you have time to read? I'm like, I read for, like, two hours in the morning before I get to work, and I read for, like, another, you know, hour and a half, two hours at home.
- [34:47]
A
And is it mostly in print or is. Are you reading a lot online as well?
- [34:52]
B
I think I read online mostly at this point.
- [34:55]
A
Yeah.
- [34:55]
B
I support, like, I still have, like, New Yorker, Vanity Fair. I get all that because I. I want to support. I don't want that I don't want things to go. I want those things to go away. But if I'm being honest, it's mostly. But I'll like, you know, every once in a while on a Sunday by the Times, like sit outside and be like a little bit of 90s cosplay. The newspaper outside.
- [35:20]
A
Yeah. I want to get back to. We sort of got off track. But Now I have 15 things I want to ask you about. Unfortunately, we don't have to go into. I am also not a reality television watcher, but we don't need to go go into that. But I am curious. Something I've been thinking about a lot because I'm in Paris right now and I've been buying a lot more magazines because we're walking around and I'm like, I should get the new system. I should get middle plane. I should get these things that all these people who are around me now are contributing to and a part of. Whereas in la, I'm buying Homegirls and Interview nw. And that's because those are the people I know that type of thing. But. And I. And I have been buying the FT weekend because I enjoy the not being on my phone. The one thing I've really thought about a lot, being here and walking around so much, is the only thing left that I feel like really stimulates my brain in a way that doesn't aggravate it is going to see art shows because it's quick and it's visually stimulating. Sometimes it can be disturbing, but usually the shows I'm going to aren't. And it triggers something in my brain that nothing else does anymore. Sometimes reading, but reading honestly is hard for me to read a whole book at this point. And I'm just curious because I'm not a tradition, I'm not a creative person in that way. I'm just reporting facts. And you know, I'm not super visual, especially in my work. But as someone who you're creating new environments, you're thinking visually all the time. Like, does the imagery online and everything you're consuming, does it make it easier for you to create new things or does it make it more challenging? Or how do you organize your brain as a creative person when you're doing your work?
- [37:31]
B
I mean, I'm inspired by almost anything, like a film, whatever, but a song, a song might inspire a memory or remind me of something. I think that I. I look back to 80s things a lot. I am aware of the fact that I'm like, okay, am I just romanticizing the era in Which I became aware of, like visual culture or avant garde culture, for lack of a better term. Sure, there is some of that, right? Like, when I was in the 80s, I was like, oh, this is New York is awesome. And my parents were like, I was more awesome in the 70s or. Um. So there is some of that. But I. I do think that this idea that in the 80s, that postmodernism was still kind of new and it was just elevated, right? It was like, it was like, you know, Andre Putman is probably like the most. And. And like, I think, like, Philippe's, like the Royalton and the Morgan's Hotel, like, that is fashion. Like, that was. That was the. That was like, that's where you wanted.
- [38:43]
A
You.
- [38:44]
B
You wanted to dress a certain way, to be seen there. So I think that I do get inspired by things that happened in the 80s still. Even though. However tenuous those are now and how little they might mean now, I. I am inspired, but I'm inspired by lots of things. I find that if I look at too many things, like, if I'm too aware of, like, competitors, I start comparing myself to people like. Like, you know, like, I think a lot of people do, but it's a weakness, right? And. And I. I work on it. And when you compare yourself to others, you never end up in a good place. So I agree. I. I try to. I, to. To be honest, the vast majority of my inspiration comes from. I have a huge library of, like, old magazines, like, from the 70s, 80s, and I, like, flag them. I look through them old books, and I'm like, this is not online. You cannot find this. Right? I mean, there's that place. Library 180. Yeah, I love that place.
- [39:41]
A
It's amazing.
- [39:42]
B
It's amazing.
- [39:42]
A
It's so great. And there. What I'm finding is there's one of them in every city. Milan has one, I'm sure Paris has one, but London has one too. It's really nice, but it's the kind of thing you have to seek out. And my experience there was incredible. It felt so good to be there and not be on my phone for two hours and just look around. But it's an interesting. It's challenging, I think, for creative people in this era, because there's a real value to being online and consuming information generally. But then there's this other part of it that, like, so much of the imagery and aesthetics that are being created now are so referential to, like, have the balance of. To be able to process what you're seeing online and Then also create your own new thing is I think really challenge is going to be really challenging for like Gen Z early millennials especially because they didn't have a life where they weren't constantly on Snapchat or whatever. But it's really fascinating.
- [40:57]
B
It also seems like, I mean, Kathy Horan and she know. She does those like, like oral kind of reviews on Instagram for New York magazine and she said like, like she talked about the Gucci show and she's like, it was something like, if you didn't like the Gucci show, it wasn't for you. Like, it was something like that. It was like, it was like in fashion for our generation is an intellectual pursuit for Gen Z and Alpha, it is not. It's like everything is like consumed at a much more rapid look. I'm gonna. I. There's. There's tons of demons in there, but I think there's also. It's our job to be optimistic and look forward to the new things that that's gonna bring.
- [41:41]
A
Totally. It's. You can't go back, I have to
- [41:44]
B
say, like, I have a. I have act like, you know, my. I have a lot of young people, a lot of Gen Zs in my, in my life. I remember when I was, when I worked at Calvin, I was like saving money to buy like a Prada coat or Prada shoes. They don't, they don't do that. I don't know what the plan is for like luxury houses. I say this honestly because they don't. They want vintage, like for a million, for originality, for, you know, it's like, it's an issue a hundred percent.
- [42:17]
A
The rise of the online secondhand market is, I'd say, the number one. First of all, the peak of fashion as pop culture in 2018 or 2017, combined with the rise of the secondhand market, which has completely. I think none of them expected it. They. There. A couple of the big houses have been very strict about secondhand generally and trying to control. Even though they didn't want to create their own market, in the end, it's.
- [42:50]
B
They had to.
- [42:51]
A
Yeah, it's unavoidable. And I don't think they know what to do because why would you buy X bag when you can get the original one? That's probably like. Feels like better quality, even though if it's not for a quarter of the price, it's just not. It's a. It's a big crisis. And you're totally right. I think from my perspective as a business journalist, I think it's about managing it and realizing that the kind of growth that they experienced was unprecedented and it will never happen again or it won't happen again for a long time.
- [43:29]
B
Does feel that way.
- [43:30]
A
Yeah. It's just a matter of like whether or not executives want to hear that when they have a lot of pressure to make sell money.
- [43:38]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [43:43]
A
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- [45:47]
B
So I went to architecture school. I ended up, I followed one particular architect named Greg Lynn, who was probably he's blobby, he's amazing, he's One of the most. I couldn't have been luckier to shadow him. I don't know if he thinks of me as having shadowed him, but in my mind I was shadowing him. But I never left a foot. Like my interest was always fashion. I was always looking at it from, I feel like every project at architecture school where I could choose what we were doing, it was a department store or an event or something. So I graduated from architecture school, I worked for him for a little bit and I was on the academic side of things. And then we, we worked on the World Trade center competition. We were one of the finalists. His firm was one of the finalists. And I worked for him and I worked packaging, I worked helping create the assets for the presentation with Imaginary Forces, which is a big post production house that did Minority Report and did a lot of experience design projects. And they offered me a job to work in experience design designing car shows and things like that. And it was an exciting thing and it had proximity to fashion. It was like kind of temporal content delivery and it was exciting. And then in the process of doing that little by little, like I, you know, I did, I started doing some projects for friends that sucked. Like, they were awful. I mean it was like charity. Like, I can't even believe these people paid made it to do what I did. But you know, little by little, things worked out. Like I, you know, I had Parker Posey as like my first residential client crazy or like first like residential place. And that was through a friend that I met. And she didn't publish her apartment. But you know, people knew about it. I designed a couple stores on the Lower east side. I don't know. I did a Jessica Stams apartment in like, I guess it was like 2008. I started in 2006, 2008. And she was kind of like the super big model at the time. And that was also through, you know, like Jen and Chrissy and Amanda Silverman. You know, like I went to. I, I, I've known Amanda Silverman since high school.
- [48:09]
A
Oh, tell me everything.
- [48:11]
B
I can't tell you everything.
- [48:12]
A
Well, tell me something. One of my favorites. I would love to have her on Fashion People.
- [48:17]
B
She's awesome. The most. This is a crazy thing to say, but she is like the most genuine person I have ever known. Like she is the same person than like when we were like 15. The same.
- [48:34]
A
I believe it.
- [48:35]
B
Yeah. She really is like, has not changed. Her friends are the same. She's been loyal to her same friend group where I wasn't always. I came Back around to a lot of my friend. My, you know, middle and high school friends, just because I was like, God, these people. I've, you know, I've known these people for 40 years.
- [48:53]
A
Like, yeah, it's so crazy to think that you know people from high school.
- [48:58]
B
I know a lot. A lot of.
- [49:00]
A
Because you grew up in New York. Like, I don't. I talk to two people from high school and that's it. I don't. I would. I don't even remember anyone's names.
- [49:08]
B
Well, they all live in LA now. All of my, all of my high school friends from here. Yeah. Or a lot of them.
- [49:14]
A
Very funny.
- [49:15]
B
Yeah.
- [49:16]
A
And so you started doing store design and interiors for homes, things like that. Architecture. When did you feel like, okay, now I have a real practice, and I have a thing that I'm good at that people come to me for.
- [49:36]
B
Well, it oscillates between, like, thinking like, okay, I've been in business for, you know, this year's 20 years to, like, I'm a fraud. I'm an imposter, and, like, I don't know what I'm doing. Look, I think that. I think this is the, this is the, the battle, right. Of, Of. Of. Of becoming middle age. You know, I'm. I'm past middle age, arguably, but coming to terms that, like, there's always this idea that you think that, like, oh, this project is going to be the one that changes everything, but by the time you've moved the goalpost, and that is an awful way to live. And I do it. I do it. I'm a victim of it like everyone else. And I work on daily, like, to not. So I am both. I am humble and immodest. And I'm quoting Maya Angelou, she says humility is important to acknowledge. Or she said once, humility is important to acknowledge the people that came before you to allow you to do what you're doing.
- [50:39]
A
But.
- [50:40]
B
But modesty was invented to silence you. Do not be modest. Right. Like, understand your value. And I think, like, yes, when I look at, like, we've done 200 projects in 20 years. Yeah, I, like, I know what I'm talking about. Like, I'm still learning because things are always changing. Especially now, the world of retail design is changing, you know, a huge amount. So there's really kind of a resurgence in retail. It feels like, to me, just based on we've gotten a lot in the last few years, there's been, like, a considerable amount of retail design outreach.
- [51:25]
A
Yeah. So when you look at your practice Is it. What is the mix? Is it majority retail or are those the bigger projects and then.
- [51:35]
B
No.
- [51:35]
A
Or 50.
- [51:35]
B
50.
- [51:36]
A
Yeah.
- [51:37]
B
It's like, like residential is more profitable if I'm being honest, because you, you, you typically spend longer time. There's also just a much more, what do you call it? Like much more like you know, like very bespoke service. Right. Like people hire us for rarity. They want something that no one else has. They want furniture that no one else has. They want everything, you know.
- [52:07]
A
Yeah.
- [52:08]
B
And in retail it's such a mixed bag. So for residential, it's actually a pretty, you know, it's like wealthy clients and I think like aspirational art collectors. Mine tend to be pretty private people, which is fine. But it's like it keeps our. We don't promote that many of our residential projects cause we're sort of unable to. But, but retail design moves in a different, in a really fast way. And, and I guess it is interesting because I, I'm connected to fashion via both obviously, but much more so in retail design because I actually kind of only work with fashion, beauty and, and, and, and jewelry brands. Right. But I guess I feel lucky. It's incredibly unusual to have a firm, an agency that does this blend. I mean we also do hospitality, we do restaurants like to do. To do this amount of work. To be excited by so many different things is really unusual. I feel really honestly blessed that I've been able to maintain all these different, you know, kind of whatever you call that, balls in the air. But, but even within retail design, it's such a, I guess the thing even I work with mass brands and Nike was our first corporate client in like 2008. That was our first corporate client. But I guess it's always been brands that regardless of what their price point was, they behaved like luxury. They behaved like an essential item that was going to like make your life so much more simple. And yeah, I feel very lucky to have, have worked with, with so many companies like that and then. And that they've hired me. You know, it's, it's honorable.
- [54:02]
A
Do you think that more and more companies are thinking more retail retailers or brands are thinking that way that are not luxury because of the fact that it's such a crowded market and you have to pitch your value no matter what the price point is harder than you used to.
- [54:24]
B
I think they want to. And you know, we work with some brands that are very old and established and then we work with some brands that are new and I think the newer brands tend to understand, even if they will eventually get to be like the bigger brands that has, like a board that is saying, no, you have to have 10,000 SKUs on the floor. But ultimately, 10,000 SKUs on the Floor is the problem. Right. Like, you have to create hierarchy and desirability. And you do that by editing, not providing every single thing. Going back to Uniqlo, Uniqlo actually is the. They're the outlier in this. There is a lot of organization and hierarchy. But like that, like in the soho store, that wall of sweaters in every color, like, that feels aspirational to me. And I can't think of any other brand that does that, that does that effectively.
- [55:21]
A
It is so aspirational and also satisfying mentally because it makes you really calm to think that it's all there.
- [55:30]
B
Yeah.
- [55:31]
A
And it's exciting.
- [55:32]
B
It's available.
- [55:33]
A
Yes. Like, I was desperate for a, after the Celine show, like a purple turtleneck, and I did. I couldn't get anywhere. And someone was like, the only place you can go for that is Uniqlo.
- [55:48]
B
And you probably get it in like three shades of purple.
- [55:50]
A
Yes. Yeah, I never did get it. How has retail design in the last, I don't know, 10 years changed? Like what, what you. When you're setting up, we're talking about all these. How much product have on the floor, I expect, because these. To me, retail has become much more about. It's not necessarily the. The use case for going to a store has changed. Has that changed the way you design a store?
- [56:26]
B
Shopping, for better or worse, has always been an act of pleasure, resistance, entertainment culture. You know, I, I, even when I was, you know, I still go shopping for things that I can't afford. Right. Like, I go to, you know, I design for places that I can't afford anything. But I learn from it. I'm still pleased. Right. I walk around and in Paris, it is. It is more pleasant, I think, like, the shopping districts are kind of more beautiful. And I think people. People are kind of like, rolling out the big guns, I guess, like the most exciting things. So I've always thought of shopping as a destination base that is part of the cultural establishment. It's like no different than going to see a play or a dance. Right. Like, you are seeing active culture moving in front of you every season and probably more quickly nowadays. So I can't say that I design differently. I think that now there was a time when, when, you know, people were like, oh, retail, like, brick and mortar's dead. And I think we now know that at least for now. That's not true. Right? Like, it is, it is. It's much less fun to buy something online and have it delivered to your house and ignore it, because that's what happens. But when you go to a store like, I mean, Barney's, right? Go to Barney's. Been like fucking working. Go to Barney's. Buy something on credit card that you couldn't afford. You wore it that night like you were, you, like, you wanted a way, you wanted to like bust it out and wear it. That's awesome. That's like, that's like, that's like one of, that's eating. One of life's pleasures, right? As, as materialistic as that may sound, we live for these things, these, these, these things, these activities, they make us feel better and stuff. So I don't know that things have changed. I think budgets are smaller and if I'm being honest, budgets, people are much more cautious. And I think that if there's a kind of technical thing that I've noticed is that in Asia and the Middle east where shopping is very mall based, and I think that there is, or shopping center based or you know, kind of come like, you know, a developer controls all that. There is a kind of uniformity in the level of finishing and the level of design that has, that's potentially good for us because certain brands are not. They have, like in America you can get in, you know, you can get into a mall anywhere, but can also get. Rent any space and design it how you want to. But, but I think in, in those, in those Asian and Middle Eastern malls, they're like, no, your, your place has to be nice. Like, so you're gonna get a five year lease if you give us like something nice. And so I think brands that probably didn't consider it as much now have to consider it a little harder in some of those markets that they want to participate in, which are, you know, also exciting markets because people buy differently.
- [59:30]
A
I don't want to keep you for too much longer, but I would love to talk about a couple of your projects and how you approach them. Has Piaget opened yet or.
- [59:39]
B
It has.
- [59:40]
A
Oh, great. So that's on Place Vendome. That's a jeweler.
- [59:44]
B
Yes.
- [59:44]
A
That's a big deal. That like, that's where, that's the center of the jewelry world. Was that your first store that you had done on Place Vendome?
- [59:55]
B
Yeah, I mean it's, I mean you're
- [59:58]
A
probably one of like a handful of architects or whatever you want to call yourself. Who have put their fingerprint on that.
- [60:07]
B
Well, I don't know if I'm right, but I think I'm the second American to design a plus one dome store. I mean, Peter Marino designed half of them.
- [60:15]
A
Yes.
- [60:17]
B
And I'm a fan. I am a, like, I think he changed, Changed luxury. He changed everything about it, for better or worse. Argued at a different time, but like, he sort of helped skyrocket this whole world. It's a huge deal for me.
- [60:34]
A
And how did you approach it? Why do you think they picked you? Like what, or wanted you? What's the sort of concept of the project?
- [60:45]
B
I don't know. So it was a pitch. Like, we, we, we have an agent in Paris and in Europe and it came through our agent and our agent. You know, we, we pitched against, we were the only Americans pitching. So, you know, but budget was an issue, but we, I don't know, I know that I'm probably like airing too much dirty lump, but who cares? Like, I, I, I did have, like, there was a, the head of store design said he, he was a participant. He was Colombian and he really wanted, he, he thought that, like, he thought that me being American was going to bring something that, that maybe Piaget might not otherwise get. And that doesn't mean that's not a dig because French people do things like ultimately all the rules of French culture provide this, like, you know, extreme perfection and kind of elegance and, and, and elevation and refinement. But Americans don't follow the rules. Americans like, you know, for better or worse, you get, you get, you know, lots of good and bad things for not following the rules. I had to convince him a little bit. He said, you have to have a, you have to talk to Benjamin, the CEO. I think he wants to talk to you. And, and I spoke to him and he was, I guess he was, yeah, they hired me. It's a, it's, I'm very honored to do it. And I actually, as much as I do move the goalposts. As I said, I'm like, you know, a middle class, sometimes lower middle class New York kid, no family money, no connections into this world. I feel lucky to have done that.
- [62:26]
A
I feel very privileged when I walk into the store. Not today because I'm on deadline, but someday soon. What should I look for? Is there like a little thing in there that you're most proud of that I, that you want people to notice?
- [62:42]
B
There's this, there's the thing that I like the most is actually this VIP room in the back in the, you Go upstairs and all the way to the back. It has a lot of the patrimony jewelry. So it has like, you know, Andy Warhol's like gold Lingot bar watch. It's not for sale, but it's like. And they have like, you know, Morella Agnelli's clock necklace, you know. So I think. And the room we did this custom mural with Caroline Perrin, this muralist in Paris who's a true artist and she deserves as much attention as I do in crafting it because the craftsmanship is literally. That's the thing, right? Like the friend. Like the craftsmanship is just. It's really superb. I really love the way that came out in terms of like thinking of how a Piaget jewel, which are very embellished, how that could envelop you in a three dimensional environment. I think that room does it very successfully.
- [63:44]
A
Well, I can't wait to see it. Final question for you because I cover skims very, very closely on Puck, especially Yen's greed, much to his chagrin. But I'm just curious that to me, when we're talking about modern brands and important, important brands of the last 10 years, I sometimes I said to Jens, I'm like, I write about you and Bernard Arnault and that's it. Like no one in between. But I'm just curious, like I don't. Have you done all their stores or.
- [64:19]
B
No, we've done some of the flagships.
- [64:23]
A
When you look at the sort of landscape of retail culture, shopping culture or consumer culture, what was that experience like for you and how did you communicate this like significance of that brand? Did you do the one in LA on Sunset?
- [64:43]
B
We did the one in New York, LA and Chicago and we're working on another flagship now because I think that
- [64:52]
A
the way they're merchandised is very unique in a positive way. It's not. It feels like everything is there but nothing is there in this way. Like. And I'm just curious what your experience with that brand in particular has been.
- [65:07]
B
So the, the brand. I started working with them I think like three or four years ago. And I too follow Jens because he, we. We had a meeting. Jens and I had a meeting like 10 years ago or 12 years ago and then like no contact in that time and then this. And I have. Kimberly Schraub is. I went to college with Kim. So like there wasn't. It wasn't like I was completely unknown. I think that like there was a conversation and I think Jens was interested and I think Kim had participated in that. I think When I started working with them, it was like, you know, I don't know, it seemed like it was like 10 people. And Kim, you know, and those people were so awesome. And they were. And they were really aspirational. Jens really is really aspirational. But also, I mean, I think Jens is actually like a Calvin Klein figure in my mind, even though he's not necessarily creative. This is a business. It's gotta make money. Like, the flagships need to make money. They're not, like, they're profitable. Right. Skims is a. Now they're, you know, I don't know, hundreds of people. They're pros. They're absolute pros. I think it's. It's not hard to create desirability in a brand that has, that has. That has been so instrumental in creating desirability at this price point. And it goes well beyond, I think, Kim's identity, which is obviously a huge force. And, and, and she's awesome. And I. And I also dictates a lot of this. I mean, she's incredibly involved in store design. She's part of it, like, every. I mean, there were conversations about two shades of, you know, gray, like, for hours. So I think that they're pros. They do want the best, and they're commercial. I think we're. I'm. I feel very fortunate to have worked with them and continue to. And I think that they're an exciting brand. Hope other brands follow suit.
- [67:09]
A
I think that you're kind of. I don't think anyone should design as many stores as Peter Marino, but you are kind of maybe your generation's version of that, like, creating the retail sort of approach within design. And there's something about, like, I know your name, and not just because I've worked with Brian Phillips forever. That's, like the first person I associate you with.
- [67:39]
B
That's funny. Someone asked me in Paris last week if I. They were like, cause you dated Brian Phillips.
- [67:45]
A
Did you date him?
- [67:46]
B
No, we didn't. But I was like, no. But we have been on Instagram together for, like, a decade, so it's really funny.
- [67:53]
A
I said to him, he messaged me the other day. I said, I think about you all. He just comes up in my world so often. It's really funny.
- [68:00]
B
I owe him a lot. I feel very grateful to have worked with him for so long.
- [68:04]
A
I really want to. If he gets this project that he wants to do off the ground, which I'm sure he will, I cannot wait to have him on to talk about it, because I'm obsessed with it, but we will not reveal it here.
- [68:15]
B
Awesome.
- [68:16]
A
But I guess my final question for you is what are you excited about in fashion right now? Like a brand or a person or an idea? Like what is still inspiring to you in that world?
- [68:31]
B
Well, I guess it is in a world where you've arguably seen everything and maybe originality doesn't exist anymore and maybe that's the search for originality is the wrong. Is the wrong path. I sort of thought and I still look at shows. I still, you know, I'm excited by them. I thought that Heider Ackerman for Tom Ford. Like I was like, this is as close to perfect as something can be by and. And still sticking. There's no funny business, right? Like the plastic things maybe a little. But like it was clothes. Those were clothes. Those were like just fucking good clothes. Like you want, like, you want like that one white double breasted coat or like it makes, I mean it makes me want to work out, right? And like, and I think that I love that, that idea of subtlety, right, that you can create a little revolution while making micro steps, you know, I was pretty excited about that.
- [69:39]
A
I love that. I also was very inspired by it. And now I wish I had made it number one on my top 10 shows instead of two or three.
- [69:48]
B
What did you make number one?
- [69:49]
A
I think probably Chanel. I don't remember.
- [69:51]
B
Honestly, it's an exciting moment for Chanel.
- [69:54]
A
I think it's just. I try to look at it from a really holistic perspective when I'm doing it, but you're right from a flat out, like, that was a great show. It was Tom Ford. It was really amazing. And it was also just so nice to see the sort of culmination of his talent and the brand. Like the right time for the brand, the right person for the brand. And also the kind of like way he made the audience push the audience. Cause it was so bright in the room and so. And it was 7pm and everybody was kind of like, ugh. And it made every. I could tell it made people uncomfortable because it was like not only were they forced to really look at the models who were sort of making eye contact occasionally and like really engaged, but also look at themselves. And I thought it was, it was just excellent. A really great experience. It's good to hear you say that.
- [70:55]
B
One thing though, it's interesting. Like I do feel like sometimes Paris Fashion week or all fashion weeks, but Paris is the, you know, super bowl of fashion weeks. It feels a little bit tone deaf. Like it's the capital in Hunger Games. Like, you're like, the war in Iran just started. Like, you know, what is this craziness? And I thought that. And you can argue that a lot of fashion houses ignore that these things are happening. We live in this bubble where everything's great. I think that Heider's show for Tom Ford addressed the issue. We have a war going on and the world is. There's a lot of dark forces in the world, and they're not. They're happening in this room, too.
- [71:34]
A
Yeah.
- [71:35]
B
Like they're part of this.
- [71:37]
A
That is deep.
- [71:39]
B
Well, fashion's deep.
- [71:41]
A
It is. Ralph, this was incredible. Thank you for taking the time and being available to us. And I. It was just such a pleasure.
- [71:50]
B
It was a lot of fun. Thank you for having me.
- [71:53]
A
Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. The show is produced, produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to Puck Co founder John Kelly, Executive editor Ben Landy, producer Maya Tribbett and director of Editorial operations Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, Kelly Turner and Bob Tabador.
- [72:19]
B
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