Time Well Spent

Summary

Fashion People – “Time Well Spent”
April 24, 2026 | Host: Lauren Sherman | Guests: Bryn Walner, Sander Lack

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Episode Overview

This episode of Fashion People dives deep into the current state of the global luxury and fashion industry, featuring two main segments. First, Lauren Sherman and watch industry insider Bryn Walner debrief on the latest buzz from the Geneva “Watches & Wonders” fair, exploring luxury watch trends, gender shifts in design, and how the watch market is coping with shifting economic realities. Next, Lauren welcomes acclaimed designer Sander Lack (formerly of Sies Marjan) for a candid, highly personal conversation about his creative journey—from global childhood to working with Balmain and Dries Van Noten to launching (and losing) Sies Marjan, and now, his new namesake venture. The episode is rich with reflections on creativity, grief, industry challenges, and the resilience required to make truly original work in fashion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Watches & Wonders: Luxury Watch Trends & Industry Mood

(00:05:14–00:21:49)

Watch Industry Consolidation & Anniversaries

• The fair is bigger than ever: "This was the largest Watches & Wonders so far. All the numbers are up attendance wise on the press and public days. So it felt really full." (Bryn Walner, 07:09)
• Anniversaries form a major marketing hook: “With an industry that’s so old, some of these brands dating back to the 1800s, there are so many anniversaries to celebrate and… something to celebrate.” (Bryn Walner, 09:16)
• Key milestone: Rolex’s Oyster Perpetual turns 100; Patek Philippe’s Nautilus turns 50; Tudor (Rolex’s sister brand) commemorates 100 years.

The Business: Tariffs, Pricing, and Market Optimism

• Swiss watches were hit by US tariffs—pricing volatility and exchange rates continue to pose challenges for brands and customers.
• “The brands are adjusting their margins...it’s like, how do we split this huge price increase?” (10:57)
• Despite worries, mood is “relaxed” and optimistic, buoyed by increased visibility in global media and social channels.

Style and Gender Trends

• “Over the past five years... we’ve definitely seen case sizes lowering and more focus on female clients.” (Bryn, 09:01)
• Female-friendly and “gender-flexible” designs are in: smaller cases, more color, and precious stones.
• “There’s this amazing old photo of Muhammad Ali in the 60s and he’s wearing a tiny Cartier tank...now it’s coming back and a lot of men are wearing smaller case sizes.” (Bryn, 18:31)

Cultural & Aesthetic Shifts

• Stone dials and 70s maximalism are resurging, with luxe and playful takes by jewelry houses like Piaget, Hermès, Chanel, and Chopard.
• “Stone dials are really big right now...Rolex has a beautiful green...There are so many stones that I’ve never heard of before that are surfacing.” (Bryn, 16:51)
• Brand ambassadors are increasingly seen in vintage and "feminine" models as both a fashion statement and social media bait.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Apple Watches’ unexpected chicness: “A lot of really chic people wear them...Do you realize it doesn’t look good?” (Lauren, 12:20)
• On gifting and aspirations: “I really want a Rolex Daytona...there’s an amazing new one made out of steel and platinum.” (Bryn, 15:09)
• On being hired for consulting: “Everyone please hire Bryn to consult. Send her free watches...the free watch...racket...the brands don’t really need it so much. At a certain level, you have to make them work for it!” (Lauren & Bryn, 20:47–21:32)

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2. In Conversation: Sander Lack’s Creative Odyssey

(00:23:26–01:06:09)

Background: A Nomadic Childhood and Visual Discovery

• Born in Brunei, raised across Malaysia, Gabon (Africa), Scotland, before moving to Holland in his teens.
• Early visual obsessions: Fascinated by color as a survival technique (his mother dressed kids in red to stand out in the rainforest)—a color sensitivity that became his design signature.
• “I thought everyone had these kind of emotional reactions to colors...but that’s not normal and that I only really discovered in art school.” (Sander, 30:32)

Education and Early Career

• Dreamed of film, but pivoted to fashion after failing to get into film school; studied at Arnhem and then Central Saint Martins in London.
• “I just applied to Central Saint Martins because I read somewhere...it’s the best school. Not really knowing anything.” (Sander, 33:47)
• Describes culture shock and self-doubt at CSM; finds being “the cheapest hire” during the 2008 financial crisis a kind of hidden advantage.

European Fashion System: Balmain, Dries Van Noten

• Hired by Philip Lim first, then poached by Balmain during its Disco Shoulder heyday: “We were making real crocodile toiles that all the interns were allowed to just cut and paste...the craziest times.” (Sander, 44:13)
• Joins Dries Van Noten for four and a half years: “It was incredibly powerful of how a company can be run and how you can build a collection...Dries is one of the very few brands that actually makes their money with selling clothes.” (Sander, 49:29)
• Contrasts the “celebrity press” model at Balmain with Dries’s “reduced to the essence” approach.

New York, Sies Marjan, and Its Rapid Rise and Fall

• Lured to New York to helm a new project—eventually launched as Sies Marjan with the Marks family and Nancy Marks.
• Mixed couture atelier experience with ready-to-wear pragmatism: “Pattern makers...had never done a normal machine like buttonhole...the clash became something really interesting.” (Sander, 61:19)
• The launch was a sensation: “It was like the last time where there was a show in New York that everyone was like, you have to go...” (Lauren, 62:19)
• Reflects candidly on the challenges and grief when Sies Marjan was shut during the pandemic: “Every time anything was related to the industry or fashion...for the first two, three years, I wasn’t interested. Some of that was probably grief.” (Sander, 66:33)

Personal Loss and Artistic Renewal

• The closure of Sies Marjan was intertwined with deeper personal grief (his father’s death); his creative reset involved writing, graphic novels, and other visual pursuits before returning to fashion.
• “It almost had a little bit of an aftermath effect of what I wasn’t capable of digesting when I was younger, when my dad passed away.” (Sander, 67:11)

Launching SANDER LACK: New Philosophy, New Business Model

• Brand’s structure is inspired by his nomadic past: each year, a new city/country/“home” (Year One: Los Angeles; Year Two: tease for upcoming new location).
• “It’s so much about absorbing color, texture, mood... It’s not about representation or reflecting the place.” (72:19)
• Focuses on being lean, flexible, and creative within limitations; found American investment culture more receptive to newness.
• Discovering the power of pop-ups and hands-on retail over digital: “In three days what we do in five months online.” (Sander, 81:13)
• On process: “I am really trying to use the restraints as a creative vehicle...pick the best thing from what I can find. Then it’s my job to make that into something where nobody would see that it was the third choice.” (Sander, 83:18)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “For me there’s nothing more beautiful than a grungy person that’s just, like, falling apart...that, for me, is the most.” (Sander, 41:32)
• On loss and renewal: “I think I’m missing my opportunity to really dive into life in a way and dive into something else.” (Sander, 69:55)
• On what keeps him in the industry: “You don’t do this...unless it’s the love of your life...the garment.” (Lauren, 71:14)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Start | |-----------------------------------------------|---------| | Watches & Wonders Recap w/ Bryn Walner | 05:21 | | Anniversary-Driven Watch Marketing | 09:08 | | Gender Shifts in Luxury Watches | 09:16 | | Market Optimism and Tariff Challenges | 10:27 | | Cultural/Aesthetic Watch Trends | 14:35 | | Gender Fluidity & Celebrity Ambassadors | 18:31 | | Sies Marjan Origin Story w/ Sander Lack | 23:26 | | Early Life, Color Obsession | 29:53 | | CSM, Early Career in Paris/NY | 33:47 | | Balmain & Dries Van Noten Experiences | 44:13 | | Making Sies Marjan in New York | 59:51 | | The Highs and Lows of Sies Marjan | 62:19 | | Pandemic Grief and Creative Sabbatical | 66:33 | | Launching SANDER LACK | 71:43 | | Retail Reboot: Pop-ups over DTC | 79:13 | | Limitation as Creative Opportunity | 83:18 |

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Episode Highlights & Tone

• The tone is smart, confessional, and frank—with insider warmth; Lauren and Sander share creative vulnerability and emphasize the emotional journey as much as the business.
• The episode is punctuated by references to color, sense of place, and “feeling”—from Rothko’s color fields (32:24) to Sander’s “ostrich egg” tuxedo shirt (85:21).
• Memorable moments include Lauren’s praise for Sander’s singularity as a designer (“I often can identify it...that is so rare!” – 43:09), and Sander’s hilarious story about dressing Courtney Love: “I don’t think it gets any better than this.” (42:20)
• The conclusion is a mutual affirmation of perseverance and creative purpose—despite heartbreak, both guests radiate hope and enthusiasm for the future.

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For listeners: This episode provides a vivid, nuanced look at how the fashion system is evolving—creatively, economically, and emotionally. Both main segments demonstrate that while cycles change, what lasts are original vision, flexibility, and deep personal investment.

Transcript

[Lauren Sherman]

This spring at Hauser and Wirth in New York, Visit Life With P. It's an exhibition that illuminates an intimate and rarely observed facet of Philip Guston's art. While this groundbreaking 20th century master is best known for raw painterly explorations of socio political power and sobering inspections of human nature, this exhibition showcases Guston's more intimate paintings and works on paper in which the artist ruminates on his marriage to poet Musa McKim and their lives together together in Woodstock. Life with P coincides with the release of a new book from Hauser and Wirth publishers by the same name, an illustrated compilation of Musa McKim's previously unpublished journals of her life with the artist from 1966 to 1976, contextualized by the couple's daughter, Musa Mayer. Visit houserworth.com for more information. I personally can't wait to see this one. I am interested on any rumination on marriage. Life with P is on View at 443 W. 18th St. In New York now through July 10th. You know when your hair turns out just right and it kind of sets the tone for the whole day? I feel like we're all chasing that, but none of us want to spend an hour getting to that point. That's why I've been really, really into lawn chair lately. I switched over to their Axia hair dryer and the first thing I noticed was how compact and lightweight it is. It just makes styling feel way more manageable, especially on those mornings when you're rushing but still want your hair to look put together. And I've been using their gloss shock treatment along with it, which has been such a nice addition for my super coarse, super curly, super frizzy hair. I'll spray it on damp hair then blow dry and it just helps everything look smoother and more polished. Like that fresh from the salon kind of finish. But at home, which is extremely hard for me to get, it's been amazing. What's great is how these two work together. The heat from the dryer activates the treatment and you end up with soft, glossy hair in under 20 minutes. It's simple, it's quick and it just fits into real life. I definitely recommend it to anyone who wants an easy routine that still delivers super, super nice results. Go to launchhair.com and use code fashion to get 20% off your first order. That's L A N G E h a I r.com and use code fashion for 20% off at checkout foreign. Welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman Writer of Puck's fashion and beauty memo Line Sheet. And today with me on the show is designer Sander Lack. We're talking about everything from the European fashion system to the power of color. Up top dime pieces. Bryn Walner joins me from Geneva with a report on watches and wonders.

[Bryn Walner]

Let's go.

[Lauren Sherman]

Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the art world and much more. If you're interested listeners of Fashion People get a discount. Just go to Puck News slash Fashion people to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday, everyone. Keeping this very short because it's a long one, but I wanted to note that Kelsey Keith, Tuesday's guest, requested that you all or suggested that you all check out the Lela and Massimo Vignelli exhibit at the Triennale in Milan. I also went to the Andrea Bronzi by Toyo Ito exhibit, which was like really amazing. You should go to both, hopefully. I think I actually pronounced all of that correctly. Who, who knows? And you can read my report from Salone in Friday's Line Sheet. Anyway, I had a great time in Milan. It was nice to see some of you and I'm looking forward to going back in June for a couple of days. And I forgot to mention our amazing dinner with ShopMay. Thank you to Tiffany, the CEO of ShopMai, who's amazing. And we just had it in the whole team. It was really, really fun. We had it at this restaurant called Sandy. Food was so good. It was the best wine. It was every. All three wines were wines that I would drink and I am usually like, I can go to a restaurant and not like any of the wine. It was, it was fun. But it's a beautiful restaurant. Thank you to everyone involved. Thank you to the team at Puck, the team at P.S. obviously, again, thank you to the team at Shop My and the Sandy family, the people who. The family that owns that restaurant. It's a husband and wife. It was just really beautiful. It was a perfect night. And everybody who came out, I love you all. It was so nice to.

[Bryn Walner]

I had a great time.

[Lauren Sherman]

Anyway, we're really going to start now. Bryn Walner. Welcome back to Fashion People.

[Bryn Walner]

It's an honor to be here.

[Lauren Sherman]

Lauren, where are you calling in from?

[Bryn Walner]

I'm still in Switzerland.

[Lauren Sherman]

Fabulous. How long are you going to be there for?

[Bryn Walner]

I leave tomorrow.

[Lauren Sherman]

Back to New York.

[Bryn Walner]

Yeah. This is my fifth year at Watches and Wonders, the watch world's largest annual trade show.

[Lauren Sherman]

What did it used to be called, didn't it? Wasn't it just like the name of a company?

[Bryn Walner]

Well, there was Sihh, the Salon International Haute Lingerie and there was also Baselworld and those two are now defunct. And then they came back bigger than ever. All forces combined for Watches and Wonders.

[Lauren Sherman]

We love to see it really briefly before we get into the trends. What is is the weather like there? Cause I'm in Milan for Salone. We're recording this. This is going to run on Friday morning. Recording this on Tuesday afternoon. And the weather here has just been so nice. It's like kind of hot. And I love Switzerland in the summer because it's still like 65 degrees but beautiful.

[Bryn Walner]

Well, I love talking about the weather. Hot takerduit. I just swam in the lake. Ooh, yeah.

[Sander Lack]

Wow.

[Lauren Sherman]

Perfect.

[Bryn Walner]

I'm real SW Miss over here.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh my God, you are Swiss Miss. I love it. So tell me what, what you saw this year. What's the big news? I was just at an Hermes dinner last night and Michael Carl was wearing a new watch that they, I believe, presented this week. That I will never remember the name. Sorry, Michael. This is like the second week in a row he's appeared on Fashion People, even though he actually refuses to actually appear on Fashion People. But what did you see? What was cool, what was interesting?

[Bryn Walner]

Yeah, well, this was the largest Watches and Wonders so far. All the numbers are up attendance wise on the press and the public days. So it felt really full. There was a buzzing kind of energy. All the CEOs and everybody said that the vibe was more relaxed, which I thought I felt that way. And I thought it was just me being a fifth year veteran, but apparently people were feeling good despite it being a year since Liberation Day watch. Last year, the first day of Watches and Wonders. That's when Trump announced the 39% tariffs against the Swiss watch industry.

[Lauren Sherman]

Wait, wait, it's only been a year since Liberation Day?

[Bryn Walner]

Yeah. Feel old yet?

[Lauren Sherman]

That's shocking. I thought that was like four years ago.

[Bryn Walner]

No, honestly, it's been like dog years.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh my God.

[Bryn Walner]

And it's been really up and down for the Swiss watch industry.

[Lauren Sherman]

That's rough.

[Bryn Walner]

Yeah. But you know, now I don't know what. It's at 15% since late 2025. And the brands are just kind of trying to manage how they're pricing everything because it's like every day something changes and also the US dollar value changes all the time. So when the brands present their novelties, which is their word for the new product, it's always the pricing and chf because nobody can keep up with what the US dol. And it's always a whiplash googling the conversion rate because, you know, something will be $8,000 in Swiss francs and then it'll be like $11,000 in US USD. So it's a lot of expensive watches. Lots of the brands are celebrating anniversary years, which I feel like is every year there's a huge anniversary in the watch industry, which I can get into

[Lauren Sherman]

if you like, tell me what is. Is it just a way to like remarket the product or.

[Bryn Walner]

Yeah, I think it's like when you take an industry that's so old, some of these brands dating back to, you know, the 1800s, there are so many anniversaries to celebrate and. But yeah, it's also marketing, but it's something to celebrate. Oyster Perpetual, which is Rolex, is like first waterproof line that turns 100 years this year. And they released two new watch under that line that are definitely markedly for women or smaller wristed clients, which is cooler to see because over the past five years that I've been in the industry, we've definitely seen case sizes lowering and more focus on female clients. So, yeah, we got a lot of new Rolexes, some gold, lots of yellow gold. Patek Philippe is celebrating 50 years of their iconic Nautilus watch this year, which was designed in 1976 by Gerald Genta, who also design the Audemars Piguet Royal Oak. He's like a hotshot designer in the industry. Rest in peace. Yeah, it's just 100 years of Tudor, which is Rolex's sister brand. So everybody's kind of like excited and celebrating.

[Lauren Sherman]

So what's the vibe? There were more people than ever from my understanding. I mean, hard luxury jewelry is doing really well. Watches have been mixed right on in terms of sales, things like that because of all these issues with the, with the exchange rate and the taxes and all of that bullshit. How are people feeling about the market itself? Was it positive? Was that. Did anyone talk about the fact that we're in like multiple wars?

[Bryn Walner]

Yeah, I mean, everybody's really media trained over there. And when I try to dig, it's definitely hard but it's been difficult. Pricing has been difficult with the tariffs. It's like, you know, the brands are adjusting their margins, and it's like, how do we split this huge price increase? And how much goes to the client, how much goes to us, and who's absorbing what? But I think overall there's a kind of optimism because despite all of this, despite the turmoil going on in the industry and the world, there's just such an increase in visibility in the watch industry thanks to, like, content creators and increased coverage on legacy media websites. It's just crazy how watches have become kind of a priority category in terms of coverage. I mean, the fact that I'm speaking on fashion people for a second year

[Lauren Sherman]

in the row look, as we've discussed, I still haven't bought a second watch. I will, though. Yeah. But, you know, people have a certain age now. All are into watches. Even my husband is like, I'm gonna stop wearing my Apple watch. I'm gonna get a real watch.

[Bryn Walner]

Yeah, it's about time,

[Lauren Sherman]

truly. You know what's interesting, because I'm currently spending a lot of time in Europe. A lot of people here wear Apple watches in an uncool way.

[Bryn Walner]

Oh, tell me more.

[Lauren Sherman]

Well, it's just, like, people. You would not expect, like, really chic people wear them. And I'm like, you do realize, because I wore one for years, so I'm not judging it that much. But, like, at some point, I was like, this isn't. This doesn't feel right anymore. And I only use it for when I go on long runs. But, like, a lot of really chic people wear them. And I'm like, do you realize it doesn't look good?

[Bryn Walner]

Wait, but does that mean it's chic now and everybody's just. They don't give a fuck?

[Lauren Sherman]

No, I think that it's like a different mentality. A friend of mine is just wearing a. Like, Like a fitness band. Oh.

[Bryn Walner]

I was like, why are you wearing this?

[Lauren Sherman]

It's not even an Apple watch. And this is a person who asked me if they should get an Apple watch, and I was like, no. And now they're just wearing, like, a fitness man. I was like, the Apple watch would have been better. Also, this person does not even exercise. I don't. Whatever. Anyway, it's like a thing here right now. Oh, well, moving on.

[Bryn Walner]

The Milan design report, it's all Apple watches are hot.

[Lauren Sherman]

You know what I totally forgot to talk about on the Tuesday episode is the T Magazine party, which I went to on Monday night and was super fun. Like one of the best parties I've ever been to. No celebrities, no influencers, just like very chic design people and some fashion industry people who are also Chicago and Hanya, the editor in chief who's leaving was like glowing. She looked so happy. And Villanetki, I think it's pronounced don't. I don't, don't at me is amazing. Like I don't know, I've never been to it. I've never been to Salone. So it's been like, it was really incredible. One of the best parties I've ever been to. It was super fun for that kind of thing. Like I'm not a big party person anyway, but it was cool. But yeah, there were definitely Apple watches there. Wow. Lots of Cartier though. I think what I'm noticing is like my peer group and also people richer than me. Everyone here, including men have a Cartier watch.

[Bryn Walner]

Yeah, I mean Cartier has just, it's been dominating just in terms of like non watch people and watch people alike. But it's just like your first watch was a Cartier. My first watch was a Cartier. It just seems like a no brainer. Yeah, they had some cool novelties you love. Do you love the lingo, the novelties?

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes, I love, I love a novelty. I love a novelty. Was there anything you wanted to buy for yourself?

[Bryn Walner]

Well, I'm still not buying watches or

[Lauren Sherman]

you want someone to gift it to you.

[Bryn Walner]

I know that would be nice. Yeah. What am I? I mean I really want a Rolex Daytona. I feel like that would be great. There's an amazing new one that's made out of steel and platinum if I'm not mistaken.

[Lauren Sherman]

Sounds fab.

[Bryn Walner]

But then there are a lot of fabulous watches that are like high jewelry met gala type. Like Piaget had incredible pieces that really hearken back to like their Studio 54 like Glamazon days. And a lot of the brands are leaning into it. And I love, I love what the jewelry houses are doing or like the non like strictly watch brands are doing. Hermes. I love what they're doing. I love what Chanel's doing in terms of not just product. They're really kind of prioritizing their horological offerings and that's amazing. But they're also doing cool marketing, which I think is really refreshing in this industry where the marketing can get a bit stale and almost like photoshoppy job. And I'm like, why can't we make it look cool? So it's cool to see the brands that kind of have that more lifestyle edge, doing cool things and creating products. Like Chopard has amazing watches. And you know, they're so. They're so jewelry. A lot of them could be bracelets. And I'm just like, I want to wear that. I want to wear an all diamond watch, you know, to Whole Foods or whatever.

[Lauren Sherman]

Totally, yeah. Is there any like, esthetic trend or is it too, I don't want to say slow moving, but too classic of an industry for there to be big esthetic trends each season?

[Bryn Walner]

Yeah, that's. That's a really good question. And I've thought about this before because it's not like fashion, but I do feel like with the increased exposure of watches on social media and online, it's just impossible not to be impacted by what everybody's talking about and what the celebrities are wearing. So it's like stone dials are really big right now. Like, people are kind of having more fun in this kind of loosh, like 70s way, like polo. The Polo, which is Piaget's probably most famous watch, they release like this really amazing lapis style. And it's super expensive and nobody can afford it, but it's like incredible to see. And Rolex has a beautiful green. I'm forgetting the stone. There are so many stones that I've never heard of before that are surfacing on watch dials where these people are slicing pieces of natural stone and they're putting them as the watch face, which is really cool. And yeah, so we're seeing that kind of 70s glamorous maximalism. And like I said before, like decreasing case sizes, which is definitely that masculine, feminine mix where the guys are wearing more feminine pieces, but are also going back to what was the standard in the 50s when there were no oversized watches, like before Y2K came in and you know, monster sized everything. So there's kind of like a more classy vibe, I would say.

[Lauren Sherman]

Are men moving towards smaller too? Because I've also noticed a lot of men in Europe wearing Cartier watches, which tend to be smaller.

[Bryn Walner]

Yeah, yeah. And you know, if you look at old picture, like there's this amazing old photo of Muhammad ali in the 60s and he's wearing a tiny Cartier tank and he's such a big guy. And you know, that was once just the way people wore watches and that shifted, but now it's coming back and a lot of men are wearing smaller case sizes. And we saw people like Tyler, the creator and Bad Bunny. And then every time there's a brand ambassador, a male brand ambassador on A red carpet for whatever brand. We're seeing a lot of these brands go into the archives and finding vintage ladies pieces to put them on their male talent kind of as a statement, or they're finding, like, a cool ladies watch in their contemporary lineup, and they're putting it on the guy because not only does it look cool and in this kind of like, you know, look at me like Mick Jagger kind of like, I could be femme way, but also it's like an immediate engagement bait where everybody starts talking about it online. So I think there's just, like, so many forces at play, and it's. It's resulting in trends kind of permeating the industry much more than they used to.

[Lauren Sherman]

Final question. What are people wearing? Did you notice anything, like, any kind of shoe that was really popular or a style of clothing or was there anything this season that you were like, that's interesting that people glommed onto that.

[Bryn Walner]

That's a good question. Well, first of all, the Watches and Wonders uniforms, like, the staff changes every year, and this year, what the staff was wearing were these kind of, like, denim unisuits with, like, a little Parisian, like, bandana around their neck and sneakers, which I felt was kind of signifying the overall vibe of the fair, which felt a lot more relaxed in a weird way. But you still get the CEOs wearing their kind of navy suits, but maybe they're wearing it with a sneaker because they're cool CEOs. I don't know. I was wearing Repetto ballet flats. Yeah, I love it. Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

Needed a pair of ballet Platz Brin. It was very nice to catch up with you.

[Bryn Walner]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

Still love it. Are you still obsessed with watches?

[Bryn Walner]

Yeah, I'm still just loving it. Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

Everyone please hire Bryn to consult. Send her free watches. I feel like the. The free watch. I don't want to call it a racket, but like, this. The. The. I don't know. If you want to talk about this, we can. We could talk about it offline. I'll. I will just say from people I know who engage in getting free stuff, especially at that level, it feels like it's hard to get a free watch. You really have. They're not like, what's up? Here's a bunch of watches. No, like, you really need to. They need to have a relationship with you. A lot of times they still don't like. It's. They'll say they're gonna do it, then they don't like. It's an interesting. It's interesting, but good for them.

[Bryn Walner]

Yeah, the brands don't really need it so much. At a certain level they're just like, you can have to make you work for it. Yeah. Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

Bryn, it was so nice to catch up. I hope I see you in New York soon.

[Bryn Walner]

Yeah, me too. Have fun in Milano.

[Lauren Sherman]

Thank you. We'll talk soon.

[Bryn Walner]

Ciao.

[Narrator]

This spring at Hauser and Worth in New York, visit Life with P, an exhibition that illuminates an intimate and rarely observed facet of Philip Guston's art. While this groundbreaking 20th century master is best known for raw painterly explorations of socio political power and sobering inspections of human nature, this exhibition showcases Guston's more intimate paintings and works on paper in which the artist ruminates on his marriage to poet Musa McKim and their lives together in Woodstock. Life With P coincides with the release of a new book from Hauser and Wirth publishers by the same name, an illustrated compilation of Musa McKim's previously unpublished journals of her life with the artist from 1966 to 1976, contextualized by the couple's daughter, Musa Mayer. Visit hauserworth.com for more information. Philip Guston Life with P is on View at 443 W. 18th St. In New York now through July 10th.

[Susie Welch]

Have you ever felt like you were living just a B or B life? It's so dangerous to live that. More dangerous than A, a B minus or a C plus life? Because when you're living a B or B plus life, you don't change it. You think it's good enough. Is it? I'm Susie Welch. I host a podcast called Becoming youg People Think okay, an A plus life is not available to me, but there is a way. We are all in the process of becoming ourselves. Listen to Becoming youg wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lauren Sherman]

Sandra Lack welcome to Fashion People.

[Sander Lack]

Hi Lauren, Nice meet you to to be here.

[Lauren Sherman]

What'd you have for breakfast this morning?

[Sander Lack]

Well, I am actually in Portugal staying at this not very glamorous hotel near our factories and they have this amazing breakfast that's part of the, you know, the whole thing and it's like nothing fancy, but it's really great. And I tend to not really eat breakfast in the US but when I'm in Europe, especially when it's part of the package deal of a hotel, you know, I am Dutch after all. I have to get my money's worth. So I, I ate a lot of breakfast bread.

[Lauren Sherman]

So what is in it that's so good? Eggs.

[Sander Lack]

Just like, I mean the bread is always Great. You know, like, the bread is really good here. Like, you know, I really just ate everything. Like, I I pastries to have these like, amazing pastries. I just, I just literally like shove my pie hole with anything that is there. And that's the only time I really eat breakfast because normally I don't. So you caught me at a, in a breakfast day.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, so good. I am in Florence for the Caring Investor day and I'm staying at this hotel. It's not a hotel. It's like, it's a ho can. I wanted to stay at this hotel that someone recommended. Which, by the way, don't ask for recommendations for a Florence hotel because you'll get like 75 different things. They all seem perfectly nice.

[Sander Lack]

Can you tell, can you say what hotel it is?

[Lauren Sherman]

I don't want to say because it's not. It's like an apartment because I'm going to make fun of the breakfast. But it's like an apartment. They own an apartment building or they occupy an apartment building like a 10 minute walk from the actual hotel. There were no rooms in the hotel left, probably because of this conference and. Which is fine with me because I prefer staying in an apartment anyway. But they had like the spread. I have to show it to you. It's just so fun. I'm gonna just get up and show it to you because it's so hilarious.

[Sander Lack]

Oh, my God.

[Lauren Sherman]

This is like the breakfast spread.

[Sander Lack]

Why'd you have to show it to me?

[Lauren Sherman]

It has like all these cookies and shit in it. And then cocoa pops.

[Sander Lack]

Oh, yum.

[Lauren Sherman]

Which, like, I'm not gonna eat them. There's no. But it's nice though, digestives. It's so funny. There's like creamer. It's just like, I'm definitely, if I eat breakfast, like an egg and croissant person and some ham and cheese.

[Sander Lack]

Not well, it's nice to mix it up once in a while. Like, I would literally, I would die if I would eat all of that in New York at home. Like, I, I wouldn't. But when I'm, you know, when I'm in a. I'm away. I'm.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, yeah. You're walking your factories. You're. You get a lot of steps in. It's different in your upgrade. So tell me. Let's go through. Because we haven't had many designers on the podcast. I'm so excited. We've known each other for a long time. I think I wrote one of the first stories about Sismarjan, your previous brand, and I don't Know, I just have really enjoyed following your career and seeing where it went and where it didn't and the choices that you've made. Because as we were saying before we started recording, I feel like you're a person who really knows himself.

[Sander Lack]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

So maybe let's start with, like, how. Where did you grow up? How did you grow up? How did you become a fashion designer?

[Sander Lack]

Well, I. I was born and raised all over the world. So I was born in Brunei, spent some years there, and then moved to Malaysia. Then we lived in Africa, in Gabon. From there, we moved to Scotland, and we lived in Aberdeen, where my dad sadly passed away. And so we moved, you know, back to Holland. And when I say back to Holland, we move basically to the country that I'm officially from. But I never lived. So as a. Basically a very young teenager, basically moving back to Holland and there. I always had this dream of being a filmmaker. I didn't really know fashion. Fashion was not really in my vocabulary. I was very visual. I was always drawing and I was always making things. But it was very. Film was really film. America, Hollywood, New York. Those were my dreams. And I didn't get into film school in Holland. I was too young. And they basically told me, come back in a year or two. Which for me was like the end of the world. Like a year or two, when you're like, you know, 18 is like, you know, a lifetime. So I basically went to an art school in Arnhem, and that's where I kind of discovered fashion. I had a sort of an understanding of it from, you know, seeing clothes. I was always fascinated by, you know, the shapes of pockets. Like, I was always fascinated by everyone, always wearing a shirt. And then my shirt had a rounded pocket, and then somebody else's was squared, and the other one was a point. And I was always fascinated about why that was and who made that decision, but not really knowing that that's a whole industry. I was lucky to have spent my sort of, like, teenage years in Holland at a time when Dutch magazine was around, which was an incredible fashion magazine that was also. Yeah, it was also culture, fashion, sex, beauty. It was just this kind of amazing, incredible magazine that I did not understand, but I was so intrigued by it. And you could get it at a gas station in Holland because it was called Dutch. So people were just like, oh, sure. So it was available everywhere, but it was super niche. So that's kind of where I was introduced to some of that world. And then in art school, I sort of, you know, went into the fashion direction. And then when I kind of discovered that, it was almost like, as if it's gonna sound a bit weird, but it's almost like a language that I had no idea that I spoke fluently. It just. I just got it. I just understood. I've never turned on a sewing machine. I didn't know what patterns were. But it all made a lot of sense. Like, it was all very logical. And so I really thrived, you know, sort of being a, you know, budding fashion designer. I guess I could only relate it to myself, so I could only do menswear. I couldn't look outside of. Because I was so, you know, I didn't grow up, like, dressing Barbie dolls or, you know, like, dreaming about fashion. So I kind of really started very raw in that sense. But it kind of helped me as well, I think.

[Lauren Sherman]

Did you have. Did your parents have any background or what did they do that you were moving around so much?

[Sander Lack]

So my dad used to be an engineer on the oil platforms for. Yeah. So every four years, we would move. It was a very, you know, very kind of crazy job where, you know, the whole family would move. We would live in these compounds with other, you know, Dutch and German and British families, and all the husbands would be away on the. On the oil rigs. And, you know, the wives of the kids were, you know, in the middle of the rainforest or in the Scottish Highlands or wherever, you know, so it was this weird life. Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

That's amazing. So you had no. No background from dressmaking or anything?

[Sander Lack]

No, not dressmaking. My references were always based on color as well. So for me, what was really one of the major things that kind of really shaped a lot of my work, even when I was working for other people, was my mother used to dress me and my two brothers in sort of contradicting colors from the environment. So when we lived in Africa, we lived in the rainforest around the equator, where Gabon is. So it's, like, very, very lush and extremely green. So she would dress us in red so that she can see where we were in, like, you know, hiking up in a tree. There's one, and then the other one is behind that hill there, because she could spot. So it's really, for me, that first kind of knowledge or realization that color does this thing, you know, this surface on this garment actually really creates this kind of clash. Or if they were to dress us in green, we would disappear, you know, so it's this kind of idea that, like, clothing and color, and I thought everyone was sensitive to it, and I thought Everyone had these kind of emotional reactions to colors. You know, like, my toys had to be a certain color, and they couldn't be something else. But I thought that was very normal. And, you know, like, that's kind of turned out that that's not normal and that I only really discovered. I don't know if it's a gift, but I definitely discovered it, like, literally in art school. That was the first time that I was like, oh, oh, you don't see things like that. Oh, you don't get nauseous when this color just pops up in your face. Oh, okay. Something wrong with me.

[Lauren Sherman]

This afternoon, I went to the Rothko exhibit, the Rothko show, which is at three different places, but I went to the, like, main one. Apparently it's in that church as well and in a. In the library. But I went to the main show, and it was so powerful.

[Sander Lack]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

Like crazy.

[Sander Lack]

Yeah, he.

[Bryn Walner]

At the end, like.

[Sander Lack]

Yeah, he's capable of really giving a lot of emotion with his color. Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. I'm in a very weepy. And I am not a crier. I'm sure you're shocked that the older I've gotten, the harder it is. But I felt like the last room, which is basically him dying, I was like, oh, my God, it's so. And I've seen shows previously, but there was just something so powerful about this show. And I wish maybe I'll get to go come back. Because, like, the one in the paintings in the church, it's only available in the morning. I'm not gonna be able to go. And then the library, I didn't even look, but.

[Sander Lack]

But I think it's interesting that you're saying about your emotional states, because think that's a big component of it. To just expect a work to just give you the emotion. That sounds very millennial of us to just want that. But really it should be about enhancing the emotion that you have or taking it away or pushing it even further, which I find really interesting about his work.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, that's a good way to frame it. So when you were in school, then you went and worked. So how did you figure out. Did you want to do your own brand from the beginning?

[Sander Lack]

Yeah. So I graduated from my bachelor in Holland in rm and I still knew nothing. So I was like, okay, I should do another something. And sometimes people think that it's laziness. Sometimes people think it's just, like, stupidity. But I tend to sort of just go for something and not really plan that many other kind of backup things. So I just Applied? Yeah, I just applied to Central Saint Martins because I read somewhere like, you know, probably in, like, you know, whatever, like the Face or something, you know, like, this is the best school. I was like, okay, well, I'll apply there. Not really knowing anything or, you know, just kind of doing that. And so then I had this interview with Louise Wilson, who was, you know, still alive back then. She was the head of the course and of the ma and she basically hired me, or hired me. How do you say. Accepted me on the spot. And then it was kind of like, oh, shit, okay, so I have to go to London. But I kind of knew, like, I needed more. I needed to do more because I wanted to start my own label, but I wanted to really do more. So then I went into that and then that course. At the time, it's still a little bit like that, but at the time, it was really about, you know, getting the best people from other schools and then breaking them down and then starting them again. So I again, had no idea. So I was like, la. I'm just going to go in. And I looked around and I was like, oh, God, everyone is so good. Like, I. I barely understand how to sew a seam, you know, Like, I like shit. And then it was really, really rough. So in that course, I really realized, like, okay, I don't think I'm ready for my own brand. I think it's, you know, we're talking about 2008. Great. A great time, as we all know,

[Lauren Sherman]

and, well, also in a really crazy time to be in London.

[Sander Lack]

Yes.

[Lauren Sherman]

During. In the fashion world and Christopher Kane and Jonathan Saunders and Richard Nicholl and all these people kind of coming up, and it was like. And also thinking about, like, 2008 and all of your peers who were either there at Antwerp at the time and how. What everyone has done. But that was like. And also, like a crazy time, obviously, economically, too.

[Sander Lack]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

But it was. But it must have been wild to be there.

[Sander Lack]

Yeah. And there's something about that. Like, I sometimes do, like, teaching and stuff at schools. And like, when people. Students ask me about this time that we're in now and, oh, my God, like, how can I be a fashion designer? And there's something about that 2008 period as well, where I feel like graduating in 2008. Initially, like, this was. I graduated in, like, before the summer. So it was before kind of like, you know, the financial crisis really hit, but it was all in the air already. But I felt like being a grad student, like, being, you know, being so kind of like, like, worthless, actually really gave me a leg up because I was the cheapest hire. I was the absolute bottom of the barrel, cheapest hire. So I got the jobs because they were, like, really scrambling of, like, you know, trying to get. So there's something about that I say to students, like, you know, like, there is also, you know, there is a version of these stories that could also really work in your benefit. And that is what happened. Like, I graduated from Central St. Martin's, did my MA in menswear originally. And, you know, like, I. I got jobs and I got offers, and it was very easy. And it's not because I'm amazing. It's not because I'm an amazing designer. It was also just because I came from a good school. But also I was just like, hire me. I'll do whatever. Like, you know, like, I have no mortgage. I have no nothing. Like, you know, if I just have lunch and I have peanut butter for dinner, like, it's fine. And there's something about that, that mentality that goes really well, hand in hand with the kind of crisis mode that everyone was in in 2008 and 9.

[Lauren Sherman]

Totally. I think there's something about. It's also an attitude of. There have been in the last couple of days, it's been all the luxury earnings.

[Sander Lack]

Yes.

[Lauren Sherman]

And it's all been really bad. But, like, yes, it's been bad because A, the consumer's behavior has changed. It's not going to be like it was. And B, there is a big war.

[Sander Lack]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

And like, all these headlines, like, oh, my God, they're all. They're all screwed. And it's like, yeah, of course there's a war. Like, of course the numbers aren't going to be great. Like, I'm not saying you don't. You have to report on it. But it's just. It's this panicky thing where.

[Sander Lack]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

In reality, like, there is a huge amount of opportunity for innovation and. And also just, like, recalibration of how we do things. And it's just a matter of being game and being up for it.

[Sander Lack]

And I also, knowing. Sorry.

[Lauren Sherman]

No, no, keep talking.

[Sander Lack]

I was also thinking, like, while you were saying that knowing kind of what some of these factors are is actually way better than not knowing at all. Like, if you're just in this blind spot where you're just like, I don't understand why this is not working. You know, like, there are really clear indications of this is happening, abc, and then this is happening.

[Lauren Sherman]

And, you know, totally. It's Once you've been through it once you are more prepared. Really quickly, before we get into. Into how you got to where you are. It's funny you mentioned Dutch, because I've. I've become newly obsessed with it because of that System magazine interview with the editor. And they've ran some of the images from that 80 page spread of no Clothes, which I thought was so brilliant, but. And I remember seeing some of your really early collections and just understanding. I think you and I are like either the same age or like a year apart or something.

[Sander Lack]

I think we're the same.

[Bryn Walner]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

82, 83.

[Bryn Walner]

Okay.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, I thought, yeah, I was like, yeah, I think you're a little. A little younger than me, but. But I think, like, your references are so clear to me of, like, a certain Versace collection or the color or whatever. And how much of, like, being a 90s kid do you think has informed your sort of, like, idea of what you think fashion should look like?

[Sander Lack]

Ooh, that's a really good question. I mean, I think every generation has its period where, like, we are the most kind of, like, heightened as a sponge, you know, And I think for us, let's say, like, people of our age, like, I do think that it was in the 90s where we were sort of naive enough to not really fully see the real side of things, but then sort of developed and sophisticated enough to really dig deep in certain areas. And I think the 90s, I mean, it was a great, you know, it was a great time, if you really look back at it and kind of what people were doing. And like, there is a, you know, there's sort of like an expression and I think it's different. It's a little bit strange for me because I didn't really spend the beginning part sort of like, aware of that. And then in the 90s, when I was living in Holland, I got the Dutch version of the 90s in a way, which is a little bit different. I mean, you know, we also listened to Despised Girls, and I went to see Titanic 14 times and all of that stuff, but I literally did. I actually did. I saw it 14 times. I was one of those. Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, it was sad. I think at number 10, like, the person in Dembols, the town, the cinema was like, you're going in again? I was like, yeah, so, yeah, so I am. That. I am that generation. But yeah, I think there's also something about it that I find really comforting. But I also feel like it's something that I'm trying to also not just go into that comfort, you know, Like, I'm trying to also not just do the obvious references and kind of step away from it or see things from that point of view of the 90s, but then modernize it. But, yeah, I mean, for me, there's nothing more beautiful than, you know, a grungy person that's just, like, falling apart. Like, that's just. That, for me, is the most. At Sismar Jean, once we had a show, and I think the highlight of my life was that Courtney Love came, and I actually had to go up to her hotel room before the show to, like, dress her. And she just, like, started telling me stories as. You know, like, as if I knew any of the people she was talking about or, you know, stripping completely naked. And I'm standing in front of her, and I was like, I don't think it gets any better than this.

[Lauren Sherman]

No.

[Sander Lack]

So, yes, I guess I'm a 90s kid.

[Lauren Sherman]

She came up recently for someone that we were saying she should come to. Who was it? I need to think about it. That she should come to some show. And I was like, I think that we can make it happen. But that's. Yeah. I mean, it's.

[Sander Lack]

She's.

[Bryn Walner]

Yeah.

[Sander Lack]

The best.

[Lauren Sherman]

I'm curious to know from you when it's. Because you do have such a strong point of view. It's so clear. You. You clearly know what you. Like, you're your own person. You might reference the 90s, but, like, it's. It's Sander. It's not any. Anybody else. Like, you can see something. Why? If I walk down the street and I see something that you designed, I often can identify it. That is so rare when you.

[Sander Lack]

Thank you. That means a lot.

[Lauren Sherman]

No, I mean, it's. It's the truth. It's. It's a real. It's remarkable. Like, especially in this market where so much is kind of designed to. It's because stuff. Stuff will be in the air. You just kind of. Everybody kind of does this one shape of shoe. Like, I'll show you these shoes that I just got. Like, everybody's doing the shoe right now, which I love, which is like a, like, retro pump. But everyone has their version, and they're a different. But, like, it's all sort of the same, and. And you can be in the conversation, but it feels singular, and I think that's. It's so unique. Where did you work? Like, what were some of your. I. I know you were at Dries, which, when. When you first started Seize Marjan. Everybody was like this. This kid from Dries. But where. Where did you work? And like, what did you learn working at the different European houses about how that all operates?

[Sander Lack]

So after Sib Martens, I. I basically, I was in London. I was running out of money, and I moved myself to Paris to live on the couch of somebody that I knew and just, you know, walking around with my portfolio under my arm and just literally going to, you know, the stores and leaving my portfolio in places like, you know, that's what to do. And I basically, I was with a friend, and a friend of mine recognized Christophe Descarnain, who was at Balmain at the time. I did not recognize him, but he was like, oh, he's like, I think he's going to be like the hottest thing. And I was like, great. So I just ran up to him. I really have no shame and I have no ego about things. So I just ran up to him and I was just like, hi, I don't speak French. I just graduated. I would love to work for you. I love your work. I had no idea. Here, and here's my. My portfolio. And he kind of like, oh. And then, you know, he kind of, like, sent me to the store and I said, drop it off there. So then I went. So that happened. And then the next week, I. I flew to New York for interviews that I arranged. And then one of the interviews was with Philip Lim. And Philip hired. Yeah, Philip hired me on the spot. So this is. We're talking 2008. Philip hired me on the spot, organized my visa. He was just like, yes, yes, come. This is great. So then I was like, okay, great. So go back, grab my stuff. And having lived all over the world, this kind of moving thing is not a thing. I just grabbed my four belongings and put it in suitcase and I moved to New York. So I go to New York and I work for Philip, which is a very specific brand. I didn't know much about Philip Lim. It's a very American brand. I was very pretentious, European. But it was a job. It was an opportunity. I loved Philipp. He was amazing. Everyone there wen his partner, incredible. And I was there for really a couple of months. And then Balmain came calling where Christopher and I used to work. And they were like, oh, the creative director sent your cv. You should come. And then I was like, oh, shit. I just started this job. So I talked to Philip, and I told Philip this when I saw him a while ago. I was like, it's one of the things that I Still am so grateful for. For that conversation of me being like, look, Phil, Philipp, you hired me on the spot, you took me here, but I think I have an opportunity that I kind of need to do back in Europe. And he was so supportive and he was like, sander, absolutely. This sounds great. No worries. It's also taught me a lot about later in life when I had employees and people and to also kind of really be encouraging of people's careers and not just only see things from your own point of view. So I moved to Paris, worked for Balmain. So this was 2009. Everyone was in crisis mode. People were completely slashing budgets and making things che unless. But us. Like at Balmain, at the time, we just did the first Disco Shoulder collection. I was working on the men's, but you basically worked on the men's and the women's at the same time. And it was just gangbusters. Like, we were making real crocodile toiles that all the interns were allowed to just cut and paste. And I mean, we couldn't make it expensive enough. It was just the craziest times. We had these boards in one of our offices. We had these boards where the press team would put the covers of all the collections. And it was one board and then it was two boards. And then at some point it was the whole room and it was every Vogue, every Elle, like Beyonce, Rihanna, every single person on the COVID of every magazine wearing the Mad Max shoulder things. It was crazy and it was so, so intense. And it was also weird because it wasn't really my kind of product, but I kind of understood how to mold myself to it. But it was also, you know, quite a toxic environment. It was very French. It was very, you know, you arrive at 11, 11:30, and then, you know, we would smoke all day long, drink coffee all day long. And then, you know, we took like three hour lunches, but then we would be there till 2am every day. And, you know, it was like this kind of environment, but it was also really exciting. It was exciting to be in that environment. But then Christoph, we all know what happens. I think that was a really complicated situation for him. So he was not well. So we could all see that. I think that was also a very good lesson. I can talk about it now because it's long enough ago as well. But I think it is a really good lesson for me that I could really see, like, okay, if that kind of success, because it was the hardest brand of, you know, for a year or two. So it was also really Interesting to then see what that does to someone, like what that kind of pressure does and what kind of person you need to be to deal with that kind of heightened success. That's not for everyone.

[Lauren Sherman]

Totally. And he was so. He is so talented. And there will. There's always like. You'll hear he's ghost designing some line for some department store. It just is interesting that he made such an impact. And also that Olivier, you must have worked with Olivier.

[Sander Lack]

Yeah, Olivia and I were working together. We basically. Olivier was hired, like, a few months after me, and he was really on the women's, and I was doing the men's, but then also doing the women's because the women's obviously needed a lot more hands all the time. And Olivia, I love Olivia. He's really sweet. And I was really happy when he got that job. But, yeah, it was a really crazy time. So when I was there and I saw, you know, to God, this is a horrible 90s thing, but to reference Titanic again, I felt like I was on the Titanic and, you know, the band was starting to play and I was like, oh, maybe I should try get on one of those boats. So I was, you know, kind of trying to see what. What else I would like to do. And then I really kept thinking about after two jobs where I did the jobs because they were there, they were exciting, but they weren't the kind of clothes that I was necessarily that into. I could mold myself into them, but, you know, it was not connecting. I was like, I should go somewhere where I really connect to the clothes. And there was only a handful of people that were like that. And Drisan Otte was one of them. So, you know, like, I've done everything else. I just, you know, send an email and I was like, I'm going to be in Antwerp tomorrow and I would, like, go for an interview and somehow got in and then had the interview with Dries and. And he was kind of like a little flabbergasted by my Balmain portfolio, which had nothing to do with him. But you could probably see that I was hungry and I would do whatever. And so he was like, sure, let's try. So then I got hired at Dries and I worked there for four and a half years. I was starting first at the men's, starting with the jerseys at the men's, and then adding the belts to it and then adding the main collection to it and adding the women's to it and adding the shoes to it and sort of like really working with him there in Antwerp, which was a really incredible experience. It's funny because I feel like obviously I learned a lot, you know, an immense amount. But the really, really important, kind of like life changing things. I learned almost more at Balmain, which was so far away from me and was such a heightened experience where Dries was perfect. Like Monday to Friday, you know, nine to five. Basically. Like I, you know, I was. Would go into the office because I was bored. You know, like I was like I. Because I really just wanted to work more. Like, you know, it was such a perfect environment. I was young, so I was kind of like, you know, ready to, ready to rumble. And I was stuck in this village. But it was incredibly, incredibly powerful if I look back at it, of how a company can be run and how you can also how you can build a collection. Like how. You know, Dries is one of the very few brands that actually makes their money with selling clothes. You know, again, I'm talking about my period there. Like now things have changed a little bit and there's perfume and there's an acquisition. But back then it was 95% clothes, you know, and it was a really healthy, thriving company. What other brands are there like that, you know, like a Rick Owens and like, I mean all the good ones really, like it doesn't really exist. Exist.

[Lauren Sherman]

No, it's like the. Who was I talking to about this couple of. Oh, it was a designer who shall remain nameless. But talking about like it used to be that like have a good $250 million business.

[Sander Lack]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

And you have a nice life.

[Sander Lack]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

You're not owned by anybody.

[Sander Lack]

Yep.

[Lauren Sherman]

And you, you sell stuff and you price it to be sold. So the one of the big revelations for me was that Dries was not crazy expensive. Expensive. I remember being in a fashion show in Paris and Leandra Medine had on a pair of chinos from, from Dries and she was like, they were like €300. I'm sure they're not that anymore. It's probably 10 years ago. But then I went and like bought all these T shirts in amazing colors and like his basics are, were amazing or are amazing. And yeah, there aren't as many of those businesses anymore because they all got so obsessed with this idea of, of being able to sell like high margin handbags.

[Sander Lack]

Well. And I think also their business model was really based on this idea that, you know, they're in Antwerp and they're not in the main capital. Like, you know, the employment is a little bit, you know, cheaper. You know, the rent is cheaper. Like, all this stuff, you know, like, they did. They did two shows a year. Two for women's or four shows. Two for. Two for women's, two for men's. No big ad campaigns. No big things. No big. You know, like, it's kind of like really reducing. And I say reducing in a positive way, not a negative way. Reducing it to the essence, which is the clothes, you know, and the clothes really do the selling and the storytelling and the, you know, there's no extra stuff around it. And that was such an amazing thing to experience, especially after doing, like, coming from the opposite, you know, where it was all about getting Beyonce in as many of these outfits as possible, you know, like, that was the business model, basically.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Bryn Walner]

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[Lauren Sherman]

How did you like living in Antwerp? Was it too slow for you, or.

[Sander Lack]

I mean, I was in my, like, 20s, late 20s, and I, I, I'm just like, I'm a city kids, and I was just, you know, I. It was hard. It was very hard for me. Me, I loved the job. I still dream about it sometimes, about actually being back there, because the confines of the job itself, being in that building, there's something so exciting about that. But then outside was really hard for me. Now it will be different. Now I'm older, and now I probably would kind of like that life. But at the time, I was like, I don't know what to do. So I would just go to Paris with a train or I would just go everywhere.

[Lauren Sherman]

And yeah, I went there for a weekend once, and I was like, yeah, I was like, I don't know how people live here. Oh, yeah. Which is funny because you think of all these designers who live there on the weekends. And it's like. It must just be like, you're in your garden, not to be cliche about trees, but, like, literally in your garden and just, like, enjoying your life at home. Because there just is. There isn't anything to take.

[Sander Lack]

No, I mean, I was like the new. Like, I was like the young blood for, like, about six months. The new person in town for about six months. So that kind of says. And again, Antwerp is different now. And it's like, this is a long time ago, and I was in my 20s. Like, you know, it's a very different thing. Like, I don't want any people like.

[Lauren Sherman]

No, we love Antwerp.

[Sander Lack]

We love Antwerp. But it's. It is hard to live there. It was hard to live there. Yes.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. So did you go straight from Dries to Starting Seas?

[Sander Lack]

No. So actually, what happened is that I. So after a couple of years at Dries, I could really feel that I kind of reached the ceiling of what the possibilities were within the company. And I've always been very ambitious, so I kind of always. I was always like, give me more, give me more, give me more, give me more. So I got more, I got more, I got more. But then at some point, I felt like I reached a little bit the limit of what Dries or the company would allow me. And fair enough, it's his company. And I think things work in different ways. And I felt like I wanted to do something where I have more autonomy or a little bit more power. And I'm not power hungry because it's not about power. It's really more about being able to create and do things. So I had an honest conversation about it, and I was like, look, I think I need to make that next move, whatever that is. And then we talked about it, and then that was totally fine. And then I had a couple of months to kind of stay and do job interviews, which, again, taught me a lot about how so you can be as a boss when there are people on your team that might want to move on. Like, you know, it doesn't need to be this harsh thing or this cutoff or, like, you can do it in a civilized way. So anyway, I then started putting the feelers out, and I kept getting basically the same job, but then for other people, so it would be the right hand of xyz. And then I. I mean, the story is strange in that sense that it's like I kind of of. It kind of sort of came on my lap. I was supposed to go to another house that hired me. That was a very Very good one that everyone wanted to go to. And I was like, okay, I'll probably do that. Because it felt like everyone wanted to go there. And, you know, so I was like, okay, I should probably do that. And then I got this really strange kind of opportunity in New York, which was what ended up being the sismorjan opportunity, which wasn't presented as that, but we morphed it into that. So I kind of felt like I have this one thing, which is like the pinnacle of jobs at that time and still now, or I can do this thing, which I have no idea what this is, and it's in New York. And then I kind of was really nauseous for a week. And then I decided to do the thing that was the scariest one that I had the least amount of knowledge about, because that's what I tend to do.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, that's so interesting. So it was this family, the Marx family owned this brand. Ralph Rucci. Ralph Rucci had left the business and they wanted a new designer. And by the time you all launched it, and Nancy Marks, who is, she was like the CEO of the business, Big fan of Nancy Marks, by the way.

[Sander Lack]

Yes, we love her, Love her.

[Lauren Sherman]

But she, at some point, you all decided to, to make, make a new brand instead. What was the sort of concept behind size, Marjane, and what was it like? Because you had Joey, who was your CEO, who had been in the business for a long time, so he understood how fashion worked. Obviously, Nancy had been around fashion a lot, but what was like. And you had the atelier, which was amazing to.

[Sander Lack]

It was like a couture atelier. The only couture couture in America, basically.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, it's incredible. So what did you sort of when you realized that you were going to be able to make a brand from scratch? Like, how did you figure it out?

[Sander Lack]

Fake it till you make it? I mean, I, I, I kind of just go and try and, you know, I mean, it was not perfect. Like, I, you know, it was the first time that after six months of, you know, trying to figure that out, like, I, I had to, for the first time in my life, go into therapy and like, you know, there's a lot of stuff that kind of comes with that kind of thing that I never expected, but I never, like, even allowed myself to give up or to think about giving up or to think about that. I really didn't know what I was doing. You know, I kind of just kind of go. And what I loved about that is that what was there was Very specific. And it was, you know, it was like the leftovers of something that didn't exist anymore.

[Lauren Sherman]

Anymore.

[Sander Lack]

And it was, you know, pattern makers that are, you know, they'd never done a normal machine like buttonhole. Like, you know, like, everything was done by hand. Like, so I had a real ready to wear menswear, ready to wear kind of background. So I knew all of that stuff. And they knew stuff that I'd never, I'd never worked on Couture. Like, I, you know, like, that was a completely different world for me. So the clash of that became something really interesting and that's kind of what I focused on. So instead of it being like, oh my God, this is overwhelming. I was just like, you know, I have my skills there of their skills. Let's build something, something from there. And you know, Joey and Nancy and I, like, we were really, you know, we were just like hit the ground running and somehow were able to attract the right people to, you know, to kind of pull it all together. And yeah, it was kind of like a little bit of like an American dream, I call it, you know, like this kind of thing of like, okay, I moved to America and then all of a sudden this thing is the possibility is there.

[Lauren Sherman]

Well, it's also was like the last time where there was, and we've talked about this, where there was a show in New York that everyone was like, you have to go to this show. It's gonna be a really big deal. Like Anna Wintour telling everyone to go to the show. That I don't think has happened. There are some amazing designers in New York working, of course right now. But like, I don't think it's happened since that. And that was what, 2018?

[Sander Lack]

The first show was 2016. So that.

[Lauren Sherman]

2016.

[Sander Lack]

Yeah, exactly.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. And I, I just remember it was like, you have to go. It's gonna be such a big deal.

[Sander Lack]

That's so fun.

[Lauren Sherman]

And it was, it was like, oh my God. And, and it was also, I remembered because I remember maybe when the apartment by the line went out of business or something, friends of mine getting your dresses. But it was also a really interesting time in fashion where there was like, it was like post net a porte, but there was still tons of opportunity in multi brand retail. So there were all these new things coming up. And, and there was just like, there was matches. There was. It wasn't post net a porte, obviously, but. But post like the, the launch of that. And so there was just. There was tons of opportunity and money and multi brand retail Still. And it just felt really exciting that this brand that was completely new was solidified so fast. And that must have been. And it must have been fun.

[Sander Lack]

Yeah, it was really fun. Yeah, it was really fun. And really, it's like I published a book with Rizzoli about sismargin, like, two years after closing. And that was one of the only. The first periods that I really was able to look back at it, because when you're in it, like, you're in it and you just go from one collection to the next, and where you are in time is always very strange change. You know, when you work on collections because you're promoting a thing that you did six months ago, and you're making this thing that will be in store six months from now, and, you know, so you don't really know where you are. So then looking back at it, when I was doing the book, like, yeah, I was really proud of the work that we all did and that it was this crazy kind of moment. And, you know, it wasn't perfect. Like, certain things worked, certain things didn't. But, you know, we really pushed something, you know, And I think it was from day one, from the very first look to the last one, it was clear what sismarjan was. And I think that was something that was the thing that I always knew I was missing working for other people because I was enhancing other people's vision or I was making them better or adjusting them, but it was sort of somebody else's frame that I was working within, and this was completely blank. And I knew that I had the capability to create something that had that point of view. I mean, I was hoping, I was wishing that I did. And I think in that environment, I was also very lucky to work with people that also really wanted that and really were very encouraging of that because that's, of course, what you need as well. So, yeah, now I look back at it as a real exciting thing and another lifetime ago. Also not just know in years, but also just like, what the industry was like, what you were saying. Like, you know, it was a different time. The. The pre pandemic years felt very different in so many ways, and. And in fashion just as much. Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

So the business closed during, like, the peak pandemic. I remember talking to Isabella and like, it. They did the marks, decided to. To close it. When that happened, I mean, it was like real lockdown. I was still living in Brooklyn.

[Sander Lack]

This was the high tide. Tides of pandemic.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bryn Walner]

So

[Lauren Sherman]

understandable things run their course, et cetera, et Cetera. It was a tough time. What are you thinking right then? Are you like, I don't want to ever do this own brand. Own brand, like, single brand thing again. Are you thinking, I need to get to Europe and get back into the system there? Like, what. What was your. Or were you like, I need a year off or whatever? I. I hope you got some time off.

[Sander Lack]

I don't know how much time I took. I took a lot of time. I basically when that all happened, I, you know, I basically was stuck in the US with paperwork and all that stuff. So my partner, who was an actor, he got a job in LA for about a year. So I basically had to. If I were to go back to Europe, I could not come back into the U.S. so we decided to stay in the U.S. so I was, you know, stuck in that sense. So that option wasn't really there. But I also feel like after Sysmer Jean, I kind of really felt like I've worked for amazing people. I had a version of my own brand, even though it wasn't my brand. It had my parents names, it had complete, creatively, visually, was my vision. So I was like, what more do I want? And I kept thinking about what I wanted to be when I was a kid. So I kept thinking world. Moving to la, the place that I was kind of, you know, thinking of, like when I was a kid. So I started working on a screenplay, started working on a graphic novel. I started working on furniture fabrics. I started working on the Rizzoli book that I published with, about Sismarjan. So I did all these other things because I really felt like every time anything was related to the industry or fashion for the first two, three years, two years, I. I wasn't interested. And some of that was probably grief. Some of that was this extreme change. My dad passed away when I was younger and my life, how it was with us, traveling, was really related to my dad's work. So when my dad passed away, our lives really were turned upside down because all of a sudden we had to live in Holland, where I didn't really know what Holland was. I only knew grandma lives there and the winters are cold, cold. So there was a real change, like one of the biggest changes in my life. And the strangest thing is when Sysmergent closed Cease is my father's first name and Marjant is my mom's first name. So it almost had a little bit of a aftermath effect of what I wasn't capable of digesting. When I was younger, when my dad passed away. So there was all of this other stuff that came up with this. This kind of really abrupt change that I also really felt like this. I need to take this moment to also really look at all of that. And kind of the grief of the company became the grief of my dad, which came the acceptance of becoming an adult, which became the childhood dream that I had to become a filmmaker. It all kind of connected into this much deeper thing. And I felt like it would be a shame because, of course, people were calling and they were offering things, and I was just like, I think I'm missing my opportunity to really dive into life in a way and dive into something else. So, yeah, so then when I basically finished my screenplay and we had a director attached, and I was kind of like, really on that boat and on that road, and I released my book with Rizzoli, and all of a sudden, like, I got that feeling again in my stomach, that feeling that I had when I started, like, understanding why these pocket shapes, you know, on shirts are so different. And, like, I was going back to. Back to the basics in a way. And I really felt like I needed to get through that whole process of disconnecting from it. Grieving, you know, really sort of like having a very almost like, symbolic, like, you know, kind of of version of like, all of this stuff to kind of go back into it and be like, oh, actually, my love is still there. I just needed to also get rid of my ego, you know, get rid of what I thought I need, you know, what. What I was used to. Like, I worked with the best people. Like, I. You know, Lota Volkova did our first two shows. Like, I worked with Anthony Turner, Like, Bruce Weber. Shut our campaign. Like, at Dries, I worked with, you know, like, all the greats. I was just like, I. You know, I've had so much amazing access to things, and I kind of felt like I needed to break that all down to be like, oh, I actually don't think that's necessarily what it is. I think it is. That thing, the pocket, the garments, that is the laugh that I kind of forgot about almost.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Sander Lack]

Does that make sense? I don't know. Maybe I'm rambling here.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes, for sure. I mean, it's like we were messaging the other day, and it's like, you don't go. You don't do this. You can't do it this and really do it. Unless it's the love of.

[Sander Lack]

Yes. The love of your life.

[Lauren Sherman]

The garment.

[Sander Lack]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. There's no reason to. There's no it's gonna be hard.

[Sander Lack]

Yeah. Like you can do literally anything else and it'll be easier and probably you'll be more successful. So there is no reason to do this.

[Lauren Sherman]

So when you decided to launch Sander Lack, which. How has it been a year?

[Sander Lack]

So we launched the brand in June of last year. So yeah. So the product has now been in the stores just for three months. The first.

[Lauren Sherman]

For three. Oh, wow.

[Sander Lack]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

Okay.

[Sander Lack]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

When you decided to launch.

[Sander Lack]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

And, and build this, like how did you think about it? You obviously not obviously, but did you raise some money? Like, how did you think about, I'm going to do this again? Knowing how hard it is to get into this business or to be able to survive in this business, how did you decide to approach it from a financing perspective but also from a like distribution perspective, a design cadence perspective, like what was your idea of what it could be?

[Sander Lack]

So when I was really thinking about it when the first idea started, it was really trying to figure out what I learned, you know, what I liked about how I did things before, what I didn't like. So it's really sort of like analyzing and what I was saying earlier, like the ego is also connected to what you think you need and then really sort of trying to be like, okay, what is really the bare minimum? Not from a. Because I am expecting to only be able to raise the bare minimum, but really from a kind of point of view of like, what does it really take to make something great? And if you just focus on that instead of having all the other stuff that we think we need, need. So from there on out, I really started putting a business plan together. I started putting a business plan together that sort of connected directly to also the brand's idea and the philosophy, which is basically in a nutshell, kind of connected to my own upbringing where Sandalak the brand like Sonderlak the person. I'm giving it a life where, almost like a nomadic life where each year and a year can be an actual year can be more or less were pretending that Son de Luck is based in a certain location. So year one is the Son Delac as a Los Angeles based brand. Year two, which is coming out in June, is a different country. I'm not going to tell you which one. And it was really about the idea of how I was raised where it is so much about sort of like absorbing color, texture, mood. It's not about the representation, it's not reflecting the place. And in the LA collections which we've now had two of them, there's no, I love LA or like Hollywood signs. It's nothing like that. It's really more about when you wake up, what's the color that hits your eyes, what's the texture you want on your skin? What are these kind of components? And then with that, we have this idea around it as well, where every lookbook has to be shot locally with local talents and really sort of using the local for some of the these external marketing components as well. And then the collaboration component will also work directly within these. So it's almost like a moving circus in that sense. So with that obviously comes like a certain type of business model. My first business model was not very good because the first one actually meant we would actually like, actually the company would actually be in those places. I really tried, but that's really impossible. Like already just with, like figuring out the text, like, you know, things, I was just like, okay, okay, no, that's not going to work. So it needs to be metaphorical. But again, like, I, you know, I've never really worked on a business plan. Like, I've never raised money. But it is one of those things where I really realized, like, when I left Reece and, you know, went to New York to start sismarjane, I kind of knew deep down there are these things that I am really interested in and I'm not the best person, but I feel like I can sort of fake it a little bit and get other people to surround me with. So. So I really put this idea together. I knew that it had to be in America because America is still the place where people write checks very easily when they like an idea. I mean, raising was hard for sure. It was not an easy thing, but it was easier here than it would have been if I did that in Paris or in Holland or. So there's something about that kind of idea of if you have a great idea, if you can talk well, if you have stuff to back it up, can open doors really quickly and people get really enthusiastic and they will introduce you to somebody else and that person is like, oh, actually, you know what? Yeah, I'd rather give you like 100,000 and then just. Then do this or do that. And that kind of mentality is very American and I love that. And it really gives me a lot of joy. And that's the part of America that I am still in love with. So, yeah, so I started, I raised money and we had enough at some point to start and to open a bank account and to get an office and do all of that stuff and Get a really small team together and then just start. I never really thought about the clothes in that process because I knew that that was not going to be the issue. I knew that once I'm in the factory, once I see that will go. So it was really a big. About a year, year and a half of like, okay, how do I convince people that I am worthy of investment? How do I convince people that this is something that is needed? How do I convince people this is a new idea? How do I. You know. So it was really about that. And it was only really, when we started, I started going to the factories in Portugal and that I was like, okay. Looking at fabrics, and I was like, okay, I think this is what the clothes are going to be like. And that was kind of funny because. Because I almost felt like maybe normally it's the other way around, where you have to present what you're making. But I kind of did business plan first. But that's also because I have a back. I have a history of stuff, and so they could look at that. But it was very interesting. I feel like I've learned so many things that I never thought that I was going to learn or that I was going to be exposed to. Like the pain of a rejection of a conversation that you've had with someone that went really well, and then there ends up not being any investment. How do you know what that feels like until you really experience it? And then, on the other hand, the moment that somebody's like, yeah, and then you look at your bank account, and then all of a sudden, the money is on it. You're just like, you did this. You created this. There is something. And it's a Not about money. Like, it's not about power. It's really just about this kind of joy that happens when you really work on something and you really believe in something, and then somebody else believes in it or somebody doesn't believe in it, you know how painful that can be, too. But, yeah, it's about living a full life. I think that's quite. It's about. I just want to live the fullest life. I want to feel it all.

[Lauren Sherman]

I feel you. I feel very similarly. It's the full.

[Sander Lack]

Well, yeah. You're crying at these Rothko paintings and everything.

[Lauren Sherman]

You know, I'm really going through it. But you are so clear about who you are as a designer and a creator. When you. You went through all. All of this, you. You were able to build it and launch it.

[Sander Lack]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

What were some of the big, like, things you Learned on. In. In this past year, the product's only been in the stores for three months. But like, it's. It was a. As you. As. As 2008, it was a. It's been a crazy time to launch something and to be in wholesale and all of that. What was the sort of market reaction and how was it different from when you launched seas?

[Sander Lack]

Oh, completely different. I mean, funnily I say completely different, but then also when I really think about, you know, doing the showroom in Paris for that first season in June last year, I was also really. I hadn't done that in four years. You know, I hadn't. I actually had not been a part of the fashion, like, industry in that way for four years. And I was kind of nervous and I was like, oh, God, like, do I speak that language even? Do I know. And it ended up being kind of all the same people. Like, they moved jobs or they were at different places or like. But it's. We're speaking to a lot of the same people. And the new people were people that were, you know, like the assistants from the time when I was there. So it kind of didn't feel like that different when it came down to the personal part part, like the people part. But when. Yeah, like, I think it is different. But also Sandal Luck is different from Sismarjan. So what we needed to do at Sismarjan and what we needed to achieve there, you know, we had a ginormous office. We had like, you know, 30 people, employee. It was a whole different setup. So there were different types of expectations there. This is a much smaller operation, you know, like, and we're very. It's almost like we're like a little boat, you know, between all the cruise ships. But. But what's also great about that is we can turn around and turn left and right really quickly, like, and move with the moment and move with what's happening. And I think the first collection sold incredibly well. Were all the great stores. Wholesale is obviously a really important part for many reasons. And one of them, as a small business is also cash flow. And there's components with the minimums at factories. Like, if we were just to do dtc, there are certain pieces that I wouldn't be able to actually get the minimum to get the right margin, to get the right. So there's all of these components. And then of course, being in the right store. Like, I was in Bergdorf the other day and we had the reel in between Sandalak, reel in between Balenciaga and Tom Ford's strange mix, but kind of like an amazing moment. It's like, oh, wow. So there is that power too. But what we are, are noticing. And that's something we didn't really do that much at Sismarjan because it was a different time as well. But we've been doing a few pop ups and just, you know, super last minute we find a space. Like one of them was like a nail salon and we converted it in like four hours into a shop. And they have been doing so incredibly well. So much better than like our online, you know, thing because people want to see. And my product is something that, that your eyes, your hands, it helps. Our clothes are easy in that sense. It's genderless. So we make it so it kind of really fits well. The fabrics are great, it's not complicated, but it's really rich in color and material. So people try it on and once they try it on, they almost always end up buying it. And I think there's that component which initially I wasn't really thinking about that much, but now we're really shifting our model and being like, okay, this is obviously working for us. We're doing in three days what we do in like five months online. You know, like, it's crazy. So that's something that we need to now adjust. That means we need to adjust the business model, we need to adjust all these other things. But I think that flexibility is something that wasn't really so much there back in those days. Like back in the days it was like, you know, you have your hierarchy, you have this person you need to please, you have this thing that you need to do. The store comes at year number six and the. And now it kind of is. Everyone has to just do what works for them. And that is more the language that is me. I like to do things in my own way.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, well, I mean, you're doing it. I think my last question for you

[Bryn Walner]

is,

[Lauren Sherman]

as a creative person, has your process changed at all over the years? Because you are, and I know we've said this a million times, but you just really do. You have a very clear sense of who you are as a designer. But has your process of how you get there and design collections changed over the years?

[Sander Lack]

I think there's two versions of answers here. I think there's a version from before I was in charge, let's say before I was actually dictating the way of working. So before that, obviously you work in the way that the house works. And for Dries, I was sketching a Lot for Balmet, like, I was doing, like, drapes, and so you kind of like, it's different things. But once I started Sismarjane and then now into Sandalac, I, more than ever before, I am really trying to use the restraints as a creative vehicle. So I'm really trying to see, like, okay, I don't have all of these options. And instead of that being a limitation, I actually really want to make that into something that, like, pushes me into a direction. So instead of me having all the options in the world, I pick the best thing from what I can find. And then it's my job as a creative to make that into something where nobody would ever see. Oh, that really was the third choice of what he really wanted. And it's kind of like that is something that actually creatively has really opened me up, because all of a sudden, not having always this anything is possible kind of mentality pushes me a lot more. So that's definitely new. But when it comes to the kind of order of things, I think it's always been color fabric. And then garments like that has kind of always been my thing. I first create a color card. I then find fabrics in those colors or find fabrics that take those colors or, you know, the fabrics are related to the colors that I do. And only then do I have my ingredients to make the meal. So only then am I like, okay, well, then we can make this kind of pants. That's also why my work doesn't always have a clear reference, because I don't start with a reference, because color is abstract. So you already start with something abstract. And that's something that I really like. And I feel like I would probably have a version of that always.

[Lauren Sherman]

The color you're wearing right now is so beautiful.

[Sander Lack]

It's from the new collection. It's like a washed cotton tuxedo shirt shirt. And it's this kind of, like, really beautiful, like, almost like an ostrich egg kind of color, which is really nice.

[Lauren Sherman]

You know what I'm realizing? I just got, like, semi custom shirts made at Charvet, and it's very. The one of them is very similar to that color.

[Sander Lack]

I know. I was very happy to see mature do the tuxedo shirts because we had it, you know, we had it in our collection as well.

[Lauren Sherman]

So, yes, it's gorgeous. Well, I can't wait to see it in person. I'll see you in June in Paris.

[Sander Lack]

Yes, please. It'll be the first collection of the second year, so it's gonna be a

[Lauren Sherman]

new narrative I can't wait to hear what city it is. Or place.

[Sander Lack]

Yep, place. You will see. You will see.

[Lauren Sherman]

Sandra, congratulations. I'm so happy for you. And I'm so glad you're putting work into the world, because people love it and it feels really good.

[Sander Lack]

Well, you too. I think you are amazing. And to be on this podcast with you, like, it's. It's great.

[Lauren Sherman]

God, so fun.

[Sander Lack]

Are we going to cry now?

[Lauren Sherman]

We might cry. It's been a very emotional day after that Rothko show.

[Sander Lack]

Yeah, don't look at any more Rothko. Let it go.

[Lauren Sherman]

No, no more. This was so fun. Thank you for doing it. Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. The show is produced and edited by Molly NE Nugent. Special thanks to Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, producer Maya Tribbett, and director of Editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, Kelly Turner and Bob Tabador.

[Grainger Announcer]

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