Artists’ Salon: Bobbi Brown and Daniel Martin

Summary

Fat Mascara: Artists’ Salon with Bobbi Brown and Daniel Martin
Podcast Host: Jessica Matlin
Episode Date: March 25, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this special "Artists’ Salon" episode of Fat Mascara, Jessica Matlin gathers acclaimed makeup artists Bobbi Brown and Daniel Martin for a candid, intimate conversation about their careers, philosophies, and the evolution of the beauty industry. The episode explores how both artists became icons for natural beauty, discusses how the professional landscape has shifted over decades, touches on the balancing act of personal and creative authenticity, and celebrates the wisdom that keeps them grounded.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Evolution of Beauty – Needs vs. Curiosity

[03:08]

• Bobbi Brown observes the industry's explosion of options, noting that the “crowded” space leads to more consumer confusion, but also gives educators like herself and Daniel more opportunities to simplify and clarify.
  • “I think it's people's curiosity, because there's so much out there... which makes people more confused, which is both for Daniel and I, I think it's a good thing, because then we can get our messages out there and how we teach and how we simplify things.” – Bobbi Brown [03:08]

2. Constant Questions: What’s Changed, What’s Stayed the Same

[03:57]

• Despite new platforms and products, the everyday questions from clients remain unchanged over decades: “Why do I look tired?”, “How do I apply my eye makeup?”
  • “It's kind of the same questions 30 plus years later, which is for me, kind of ironic and crazy.” – Bobbi Brown [03:57]
• Daniel agrees but notes confusion is heightened by the overwhelming product landscape.

3. Personal Aesthetics and the Roots of Natural Beauty

• Bobbi and Daniel discuss becoming known for natural looks in eras where over-the-top makeup was predominant.
  • “I just started doing crazy things like choosing a foundation, the color of people's skin, putting a blush on... So I slowly became known for what I was good at.” – Bobbi Brown [06:50]
• Daniel relates, saying he gravitated to undetectable makeup due to his own struggles with skin as a teen:
  • “I wanted skin to look like skin... because I hated the way that it looked on.” – Daniel Martin [08:01]

4. Learning Through Pressure: New York Fashion Week

[08:55]

• Both stress how working under intense time constraints at events like Fashion Week is the ultimate “boot camp” for artists.
  • “If they can do New York Fashion Week, then they've figured it out... It's about timing, working with other people, understanding skin type and skin tone.” – Daniel Martin [09:11]

5. Industry Changes: The Pre-Digital & Digital Divide

[10:02], [17:28]

• Bobbi recalls when makeup artists had to be responsible for flawless results on-camera without digital retouching—raising their technical standards.
• Daniel reminisces about the commitment required in analog photography, contrasting it with today's endless digital options:
  • “Now you're trying out all these different options... the look changes because you haven't had a discerning point from the start.” – Daniel Martin [20:39]

6. Adaptation and Resourcefulness On-Set

[17:54]

• Bobbi details creating a fully equipped studio in Montclair, styling her own shoots, and the satisfaction in streamlining production:
  • “I don't hire stylists anymore. We have a wardrobe closet... When we do shoots, I style them.” – Bobbi Brown [18:15]

7. Personal Growth: The Role of Flexibility and Communication

[12:20], [13:55]

• Bobbi credits career longevity to her relentless drive to improve:
  • “Being a creative person, there's all this creativity, but... I'm just always thinking whatever I do, wow, that's great. But maybe I could do it like this next time...” – Bobbi Brown [12:48]
• Daniel emphasizes prioritizing the client’s feelings over his own preference:
  • “It's about putting them first rather than it being about the makeup. Like, I'm there to perform a service. I want them to feel safe...” – Daniel Martin [13:55]
• Quick, ongoing communication with clients is key to understanding their comfort zones:
  • “I always show whoever I make up a mirror... Because if they go like this, like, oh, my God, it's too much. I'm like, I know to take the eyebrows down.” – Bobbi Brown [15:26]

8. Groundedness, Mentors, and the Wisdom of Aunt Alice

[22:18]

• Bobbi shares the wisdom of her Aunt Alice, whose pragmatic, calm outlook continues to inspire both her career and life:
  • “She starts every sentence with look... when everything seems like it's a mess... Alice says, look, just, it's fine. Take a breath, go kiss your children... It's gonna be fine.” – Bobbi Brown [23:49]
• Daniel finds grounding in community outside of the industry, such as his life upstate.

9. The New World of Social Media and Brand Building

[27:44], [28:11]

• Bobbi discusses rebuilding her identity with Jones Road after leaving her namesake brand, and her willingness to embrace new platforms like TikTok:
  • “You need to just lean in and try these things and not be afraid.” – Bobbi Brown [28:46]
• Attitude towards “virality” versus slow, steady growth—Bobbi balances both, remaining fearless in the face of uncertainty.
  • “If something doesn't work, so it doesn't work. Right. It's like, okay, well, that's just a message to do it differently.” – Bobbi Brown [29:16]

10. Balancing Personal & Professional Personas

[31:23]

• The hosts and guests touch on the expectation for artists to reveal more about themselves than ever before:
  • “I think the challenge is, how do you like. I think, for me, anyways, how do I do that? Like, I can't... There's only so much that I want to share.” – Daniel Martin [32:29]
• Bobbi only shares stories or advice publicly if she believes it can help or empower others.

11. Looking Forward: Future Projects & New Chapters

[34:49], [35:03]

• Bobbi explains her diplomatic approach to writing her book—candid but never cruel.
• Daniel hints at future ambitions, possibly focused on practical solutions (like shaving and scalp care) rather than simply launching more beauty products:
  • “I do feel like shaving and trying to look a certain... with ingrown hair and bumps... That's where I start turning my wheelhouse.” – Daniel Martin [36:20]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Very rarely do I sit back and say, oh, yeah, got that. That's great.” – Bobbi Brown [13:13]
• “The last thing I want to do for someone who’s nominated for an Oscar is to do something that I think looks great, but then them not be comfortable in it.” – Daniel Martin [14:02]
• “You should [do New York Fashion Week]. It’s like being a waitress. It’s like, you shouldn’t be allowed to eat in a restaurant unless you’ve been a waitress.” – Bobbi Brown [09:44]
• “No, but this is your brand... There’s no brand dedicated to beautiful heads.” – Bobbi Brown to Daniel, on new product ideas [36:38]
• “You can create your own system.” – Daniel Martin [37:30]

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Key Timestamps

• [03:08] — Then & now: Have people’s needs changed?
• [06:50] — Bobbi’s natural makeup philosophy origin story
• [08:55] — The pressures and training of Fashion Week
• [12:48] — The importance of self-improvement
• [13:55] — Putting the client first; translating feedback into action
• [18:15] — Building and managing a personal studio/wardrobe
• [20:39] — The art of commitment vs. abundance in digital photography
• [22:18] — Aunt Alice’s wisdom
• [27:44] — Reinventing professional identity via social media
• [31:23] — How much “self” must be in a personal brand?
• [35:03] — Daniel on future projects and product innovation

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Episode Tone & Style

The conversation is warm, funny, and refreshingly honest—equal parts industry masterclass, nostalgic storytelling session, and friends’ reunion. Bobbi’s pragmatism pairs with Daniel’s humility, and Jessica’s questions invite both playfulness and depth.

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Conclusion

This “Artists’ Salon” episode of Fat Mascara is an essential listen for anyone interested in beauty’s past, present, and future. It’s filled with practical wisdom, personal anecdotes, and the kind of everyday advice that makes both Bobbi Brown and Daniel Martin enduring, beloved figures in the industry. Whether you’re a beauty professional, a passionate consumer, or simply a lover of great conversation, this episode delivers a rare glimpse behind the scenes—with a healthy dose of humor and heart.

Transcript

[Jessica Matlin]

This episode of Fat Mascara is presented by Milani Cosmetics, a brand who believes that what's inside matters.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Oh, my gosh, guys, it's so good to, I would say see you.

[Jessica Matlin]

I can't really see you, but I know you're there if you're here. Thank you for coming back. Thank you for listening. Last time we were together, it was the end of May. Jen and I announced the end of

[Jennifer Goldstein]

the show, but to be honest, I

[Jessica Matlin]

was like, I don't really know what

[Jennifer Goldstein]

I want to do.

[Jessica Matlin]

Let's put a pin in it. Over the summer, I realized I really missed doing the show. I missed talking to you guys, I missed DMing with you guys, I missed writing with you guys. And honestly, I just missed the beauty community. I have done this show for 10 years now, and it has been such a deeply personal part of my life. Starting this show opened up so much for me and I. I loved meeting and hanging out with all of you and talking with you and really just being immersed in this world. I had to revive it and it gives me so much pleasure, I cannot even tell you. We'll talk about it more probably next episode that I get to do it with People Inc. People Inc. Is the Home to People, InStyle, Entertainment Weekly, Birdie, and, you know, do it with a team who I know and love and I've worked with for years. So this is a really natural homecoming

in so many ways.

So again, we'll talk more about that next episode. But wow, this is going to be incredible. So expect more of what you know. We're not changing things up so much

[Jennifer Goldstein]

where you're going to be like, ah, what is this?

[Jessica Matlin]

This is a new show. No, expect a lot of recurring FM family members who, you know from the past 10 years, but a lot of new discovery talent that, I mean, that's what FM is known for. Bringing in new people who I know you're going to love that have been vetted by fat mascara. So we're going to kick it off with a new franchise that I know you're going to love. Artist Salon with friends of the pod, Bobby Brown and Daniel Martin. What is Artist Salon? Where I bring together two creatives to share and compare their experiences. So settle in, relax, have a listen, and at the end, we'll reconvene.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

So we'll see you after the interview. Bobbi, you're a pioneer in the beauty world and certainly as a makeup artist and you've been a pioneer for natural beauty and skin that looks like skin. Obviously you can do it all, but I feel like you always or everyone knows you come back to natural beauty. And, Daniel, your aesthetic has always been about natural beauty. So I'm so excited to have both of you here for this amazing conversation. Bob, you started working in the 1980s, Daniel, in the 1990s. Today, the space is very different. It looks very different. And how people receive information about beauty, look for information is so different. But let's take a step back. Have people's needs when it comes to beauty changed.

[Bobbi Brown]

Well, I don't know if it's people's needs. I think it's people's curiosity, because there's so much out there. And the good news is there are a lot of options, but I think it just makes people more confused, which is both for Daniel and I, I think it's a good thing, because then we can get our messages out there and how we teach and how we simplify things. So I think it's a good thing. I don't think it's a bad thing that it's so crowded.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

So when people came up to you at the counter, where I'm sure you were doing a lot of PAs back in the day, or on QVC where you used to. You're not doing QVC for Jones Road yet. I don't know what the plans are.

[Bobbi Brown]

No plans. No plans.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Okay. No plans. Never say never. Never say never.

[Bobbi Brown]

Never say never.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Yeah. Were they asking you different questions? Are they coming to the table with more sophisticated questions today?

[Bobbi Brown]

Oh, my God. Honestly, it's the same thing. People stop me, and they want to know how come I look so tired, I look so drained, I feel so old, or I don't know how to play at my eyes. It's kind of the same questions 30 plus years later, which is, for me, kind of ironic and crazy.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

That's funny. Daniel, what are you saying?

[Daniel Martin]

I mean, she's absolutely right. The questions are the same, but because we have so much more stuff, people are confused on how to use it. And I really feel like. Like, Bobby's book was one of my first books, like, makeup books I ever got, and I got it from my sister.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Daniel Martin]

And it really taught me the groundwork of how to identify these challenges. And at the time, I was working at Mac, and I was able to apply her, like, at.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Behind the counter.

[Bobbi Brown]

Yeah.

[Daniel Martin]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Where was this at the time?

[Daniel Martin]

It was in Seattle, 1992. 90. Yeah. Winter of 92 into 93.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Okay.

[Daniel Martin]

And that's kind of like when I fell in love with makeup.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Yeah. And what were people looking for?

[Daniel Martin]

I mean, Back then, it was like, you know, Mac spice lip liner and taupe lipstick.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Yeah, neutrals.

[Daniel Martin]

Yeah, total neutrals. I don't. Bobby, when did your brand launch? Was it 97?

[Bobbi Brown]

No, no, no. Bobby Brown launched. I know, because it's the age of my son. I mean, really? We launched. Yeah, we launched in Bergdorf Goodman. Dylan is 35. He was 6 months old when we launched in Bergdorf Goodman.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Oh, my God.

[Bobbi Brown]

So it was 34 years ago, but I had been selling lipsticks out of my home for about a year, year and a half before that.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

That's such an amazing story. I did not realize that until I read the book that you were doing, like, a real, like, I think of, like, the moms who sold sweatshirts and jewelry in my hometown, you know, that they had their own little, like, side business. You were doing the lipstick before Bergdorf? I. I missed that chapter until I read the book.

[Bobbi Brown]

Yeah, no, it was really cool. Cause I remember, like, oh, I love this. I bet I could sell it.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Incredible.

[Bobbi Brown]

And I started selling it, and then a friend of mine who was a beauty editor said, wow, this is so cool. Can I write about it? I'm like, why would you want to write about this? Well, now it's called pr, you know, I'm like, yeah, okay.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Yeah, yeah. Each of you, like I said, at the top, like, you're known for. You can do it all. I always feel like I need to. To say that, you know, it's not that you can only do natural. I think the world knows that. But you feel more comfortable. It feels more true to your style to do a more natural look. Did you seek that out? Like, did you know that that was going to be your thing? I feel like today people feel like they. What is my brand? Who. What am I known for? Or did this sort of become a happen? Was it kind of happenstance?

[Bobbi Brown]

Well, I'm decade, if not more, before Daniel and probably two decades. And, you know, the style was so over the top when I was a young makeup artist. And I tried to do it, but I truly thought people looked bad either. I wasn't sure if I was not talented enough to do it. You know, Kevin Aucoin was painting faces or beating faces, basically. And I just couldn't do it where it looked good. So I just started doing crazy things like choosing a foundation, the color of people's skin, putting a blush on. You didn't have to blend, which wasn't revolutionary at the time. It just made sense to me. So I slowly became known for what I was good at. And, you know, it wasn't popular. It really wasn't popular at the time. So I never said, oh, I should be this. I should do this. I just did my thing.

[Daniel Martin]

That's so fascinating, because Kevin's inspiration was way bandy.

[Bobbi Brown]

Yeah.

[Daniel Martin]

And Kevin was known to kind of, like, take away the face and build it back up.

[Bobbi Brown]

Right.

[Daniel Martin]

And I think for me, I had such horrible skin growing up, like cystic acne. Now it's more about not being able to see makeup on the skin.

[Bobbi Brown]

Right. Yeah.

[Daniel Martin]

Because I wanted skin to look like skin, and I didn't want to look like I was covering up someone else's skin because I hated the way that it looked on.

[Bobbi Brown]

Right. And when I came to New York and started working with supermodels, I couldn't believe how beautiful they were when they walked in the door. And so, you know, we would do this makeup, and I would try to do before Kevin even. I would try to do what people like Rick Gillette or other people would do. And I just said, oh, my God, they looked so much better before.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Bobbi Brown]

Then I started kind of studying the way they, like, the light would catch them when they had no makeup on. And I'm like, oh, my God, I've gotta find that color blush. And that's how I learned about natural makeup.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

This is a serious question. Does it take. This sounds like I'm trying to be cheeky. Does it take just as long to do really good natural makeup as it does to do dramatic makeup?

[Bobbi Brown]

It doesn't take me long to do either. I mean, I'm really fast. And, you know, Daniel, I don't know about you, but I always did New York Fashion Week, so I was creating looks and doing. You know, and sometimes the girls come in. You have four minutes.

[Daniel Martin]

Absolutely.

[Bobbi Brown]

Right?

[Daniel Martin]

Absolutely. That is like, I feel like every makeup artist boot camp, if they can do New York Fashion Week, then they've figured it out. Because it's timing. It's about working with other people. It's about understanding skin type and skin tone. And when you're caught in a situation where you don't have the foundations to. To balance out someone's skin, you have to figure it out. And so much comes into play. And I. I feel like assistances that come up. I'm like, you have to do New York Fashion Week. Right.

[Bobbi Brown]

It's like being a waitress. It's like, you should be allowed to. To eat in a restaurant unless you're a waitress. You should.

[Daniel Martin]

That's so true. Oh, my God. That's So true.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Are there makeup artists today who don't. Who haven't done their time sort of in.

[Daniel Martin]

Yeah, I'm sure of them on the West Coast, I'm sure.

[Bobbi Brown]

And by the way, when I was a young makeup artist, the shade.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Daniel, you're like a lot of other west coast and their name.

[Bobbi Brown]

Yeah, no, no, no, we don't. That's not what this podcast. You know, but when I was a young makeup artist, there was no such thing as, like, touching up. Like, you couldn't. Like, once the picture was done, that was it. No one was going to retouch the photograph.

[Daniel Martin]

You had to be accountable.

[Bobbi Brown]

And I remember one photographer said, bobby, the foundation on the face doesn't match the body. Can you make up the whole body tomorrow? And I said, oh, yeah, no problem, Walter Chin. And I start taking my little bottle, and I said, this is stupid. That bottle cost me 50 bucks. That's crazy. There's gotta be a foundation that matches skin. And there wasn't.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Wow. Is that how, like, the Mac. I know you guys are not working for Mac right now, but I was thinking Mac, like the Face and body foundation. Like, is that where the came from?

[Bobbi Brown]

I don't know. I mean, the thing is, Mac and Bobby Brown have always been kind of counterintuitive, so, you know, very different. I would literally choose a foundation that would match the body and put it on the face, where Mac, whatever they did, they did the face, and then they did the body.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Yeah. Wow. I'm still on the Fashion Week thing, and then I'm gonna go to my next question. I'm so. No, because I do feel like it must be so. Even as an editor. I mean, you. As an editor, you don't have. You have to get quotes and you have to get out, but you're not working as hard as the people who have to get the models out on the. On the Runway.

[Daniel Martin]

But you've seen that. You've seen. You've been backstage and seen, like, five people on one person because they've walked in late.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Oh, it's horrible. Yeah. And you feel like, yeah, the girls. Girl comes in, and she looks like, you know, a gazelle. She's got her coat on. She looks like a deer in headlights. And then there's. It's like, go, go, go. It's scary. But I'd imagine that is how you learn baptism by fire 100%.

[Bobbi Brown]

Or they come from another show where that makeup artist decided to put black lipstick on and green eyeshadow and a white foundation, and you're Doing, you know, freckles, and you gotta think on your feet.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Yeah, yeah. So you are both. You said thinking on your feet. It's about going with the flow. Bobbi, in your book, you said that being. Basically being flexible, positive, easygoing. These are skills that were really just as important to your success as your, you know, technical ability. I'm paraphrasing a bit, but it's that ability to also keep improving. You said your commitment to keep improving. Can you speak a little about this?

[Bobbi Brown]

Yeah. I don't know if it's because I'm just neurotic. Like, I always think what I do could be better. You know, I mean, I think being a creative person, there's all this creativity, but being someone that really cares about all the details, I'm just always thinking whatever I do, wow, that's great. But maybe I could do it like this next time or maybe this. Very rarely do I sit back and say, oh, yeah, got that. That's great.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Bobbi Brown]

Even with the Jones Road products, you know, when I'm like, oh, maybe we should have dot, dot, dot.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Mm, mm. And Daniel, I mean, you've been. You and I have been friends for a long time, and you have a lot of great relationships in the industry. You're a very talented artist. I'm like, you know, blowing little. Not blowing, blowing smokes when you're not being genuine. I think I'm flattering you right now, but I think you have a lot of relationships because you're very. You're very easygoing. You're Virgo, but you're easygoing. How do you attribute, like, your personality to, like, your type to your success? It's a little bit awkward to talk about your own success, but you get my point.

[Daniel Martin]

Yeah, no, totally, because I think it's about putting them first rather than it being about the makeup. Like, I'm there to perform a service. I'm there to take care of them. I want them to feel safe. I want them to put their best foot forward, so to speak. And I think when you're not only are you talented, but you also have to be a good listener, because one little thing that they may not like about how they look can completely change the way that they feel that day. Like, the last thing I want to do for someone who's nominated for an Oscar is to do something that I think looks great, but then them not be comfortable in it.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Right.

[Bobbi Brown]

You and I share that. We're both. It's not just being a people pleaser, but we know that if the person we're working on loves what they do. And there's just like, when, you know, Daniel, I'm sure you work with a lot of agents and stylists and, you know, everyone has different opinions and, you know, same doing shoots where the stylist wants something the photographer, you have to kind of, you know, be a little bit of a. How do you coordinate it all?

[Daniel Martin]

Yeah. Because you're the one that's in their face.

[Bobbi Brown]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Did you get better at that over time, or do you think that's just kind of a personality type?

[Daniel Martin]

I got better over time, definitely. Because you have to learn how to talk to certain people and you have to understand, you know, different. You catch signals, body language. They may not be able to articulate it, but you have to think it for them or recognize it.

[Bobbi Brown]

I always show whoever I make up a mirror and I do it. Even like if I'm doing top to bottom and I've just started working with them, I. I do it along the way. I want them to see the concealer, the eyebrows. Because if they go like this, like, oh, my God, it's too much. I'm like, I know to take the eyebrows down. Cause it's a personal choice. Same thing with under the eyes. What I think is natural and what someone else thinks is natural might be two different things. When someone says, I want coverage, well, there's a lot of different variations of coverage. So we're comparing, communicating not just with our words, but what we see.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Body language. That's. That's a really important part.

[Jessica Matlin]

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[Jennifer Goldstein]

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[Jessica Matlin]

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[Jennifer Goldstein]

So you each started your career on set, but when I think about sets, like even 10 years ago, it feels like something from unzipped. It feels like it's not even that long. It just feels like these things don't happen anymore. You talked about the retouching, people running out for going to buy your own makeup. What are some things that just wouldn't apply today? Or when you go on set, you feel like it's a new day.

[Bobbi Brown]

Well, I'm really fortunate because I have a photo and TV studio in my town that my husband built for us and it's right next to our office.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

So that's handy.

[Bobbi Brown]

Oh, it was really handy. Daniel. You could use it. Come and use it anytime.

[Daniel Martin]

Oh, my God.

[Bobbi Brown]

You could stay at our hotel, the George. You could shoot.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Casting studio.

[Bobbi Brown]

We're building one and we're building a content studio because, you know, we're in New Jersey. We're in Montclair, New Jersey. My husband's a developer. We have this great building and all the needs every year or two changes. So, you know, we have it. But I don't hire stylists anymore. We have a wardrobe closet. So when we do shoots, I style them. The team brings everything out, lays everything out. And, you know, it's not fashion, it's beauty. So there's all the different earring choices, the different colors, and it just works.

[Daniel Martin]

That's like a dream.

[Bobbi Brown]

No, honestly, it's really. You could literally come with a hairdresser, a model, and you're the makeup artist and a photographer. Or you could take the pictures and you could do a shoot here and just. You just open up the wardrobe closet. I'm so, like, aged.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

What are you obsessed with in the wardrobe closet right now? Like, what are you loving?

[Bobbi Brown]

Well, first of all, I've, you know, everything has to be in order. Like, I'm someone that hires organizers. That's how nutty I am. But so there's racks of suits. And by the way, these are beautiful suits. Most of them are from Zara or Uniqlo. I've got some that, you know, some of my friends that have brands have sent me and said keep. There is a difference between a little bit nicer one and then we've got every size because you don't know what size someone is. We've got now we're building up our shoe wardrobe. We reached out to New Balance. Like, sure, we'd love to send you sneakers in every size and every color. So it's really fun. And then I do content to kind of say thank you.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Okay, so, yeah, that's what's happening in Bobby's studio in Montclair.

[Bobbi Brown]

Yeah, Daniel.

[Daniel Martin]

I'm showing up. I mean, what's interesting is that I feel like there's a group, there's a generation that's discovering film, but they don't understand the work that goes behind a Polaroid. And I remember, like, you would wait for the Polaroid. You see the Polaroid and see what needed to change, what needed it. It wasn't about taking 50 options of one shot.

[Bobbi Brown]

Right.

[Daniel Martin]

Which you can do with digital. And I think that's what's happening now is that you're taking too many and you aren't committed to what it is that you wanted in the first place because now you're trying out all these different options.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Right, right, right.

[Daniel Martin]

And I feel like point of view changes, the look changes because you haven't had a discerning point from the start.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Right. There was more of a commitment to this is the image we are going for. This is what we want to achieve. I understand. I understand.

[Bobbi Brown]

Do you still have your Polaroids by chance?

[Daniel Martin]

I have a few and I have them in a Ziploc bag just tucked away. Because I'm just like, yeah. I mean, it's nice to go back and look at things. But then you look at things so differently now because everything is just so much easier, different.

[Bobbi Brown]

So I have. I have my early Polaroids and they are stapled or taped in a date book where I wrote, where I was going, the photographer's name, how much I spent on taxis. Because whatever. My first accountant.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

You really uncogged everything.

[Bobbi Brown]

And I still have it. I still have everything.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Are you going to publish that?

[Bobbi Brown]

If you would come into my basement and see, I actually hired an organizer. I have everything and they're all in, like, boxes and I have a lot of digitized. Who knows, maybe one day I'll open a museum.

[Daniel Martin]

It'd be great to have a museum.

[Bobbi Brown]

Yeah, one day. You never know. Yeah. There's a Yogi Berra museum in our town. Who was a very well known baseball player. I mean, if you don't know. And I'm like, wow. And my husband was on the border there. I'm like, maybe I'll have a Makeup museum one day.

[Daniel Martin]

That would be amazing.

[Bobbi Brown]

Well, I got enough on my plate right now, but maybe one day put

[Jennifer Goldstein]

it on the five year plan. Five to ten.

[Bobbi Brown]

Exactly.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Yeah. Bobby, you have this amazing Aunt Alice. You've referenced her, I mean, in books, in interviews. Anyone who's followed your career knows about Aunt Alice. She's been a guiding in your life and she's been your. Your brand has always been about, yes, the beauty, you know, yes, the, the aspirational. But it's always been grounded in pragmatism, which I think is why so many people respond to you, whether it's the makeup or just you as a, as a person. And she gives you all this great advice. One thing I really like, that she said this was in your book, was about like basically like facelifts, like plastic surgery. I'm kind of paraphrasing here, but it's like, forget it. She had a friend who spent 13k on like a facelift and now it's like back to square one.

[Bobbi Brown]

It all fell and it hu.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Yeah, she's like, it was the worst pain in her life. Just like, no nonsense. Can you give us a little. An exclusive, An FM exclusive. Tell us something else that Aunt Alice really bestowed on you.

[Bobbi Brown]

Yeah, well, the amazing thing about Aunt Alice, she was the antithesis of my mother. My mother was very glamorous and fancy. So I learned about glamour and fancy. And then Aunt Alice, practical, never colored her hair, never took medication, never wore high heels. She was under 5 foot tall, totally fine with it. She starts every sentence with look. There is. If you go to my Instagram. If you go to my Instagram, you will see her. We did a get ready with me.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

She looks great.

[Bobbi Brown]

94 year old aunt Alice. You know when the influencers speed it up and go like this. You got Aunt Alice doing it. It is so funny.

[Daniel Martin]

That's amazing.

[Bobbi Brown]

Yeah. And you know what the amazing thing of having an Aunt Alice in your life, when everything seems like it's a mess and you just, you know, this happens to all of us, like you're just depleted and exhausted and Dallas says, look, just, it's fine. Take a breath, go kiss your children, your grandchildren, go kiss your husband. It's gonna be fine. And you know it's gonna be fine. And you know, our world is a mess. We need Aunt Dallas. You know, somehow it's bad. Everything is bad. But you know what? She's gonna say it, Jessica, it's good. The world is good.

[Daniel Martin]

And you know, can we share your Aunt Alice?

[Bobbi Brown]

Yes, you can.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

I Feel like Aunt Alice would slap me around so hard some days I'd be so bad.

[Bobbi Brown]

She'd say, look.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

So bad.

[Bobbi Brown]

Aunt Alice, I think I'm gonna make a necklace that says look on it. Just look.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Yes.

[Bobbi Brown]

Yeah, right? Or T shirts. See, T shirts that say look.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

I need a look friend right now.

[Bobbi Brown]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Daniel, do you have an Aunt Alice type in your life? A friend, a relative, anybody who is gonna shake you by the shoulder sometimes and just give you that one, two.

[Daniel Martin]

Oh, my gosh.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Or do we need. Do we. Do we need to borrow Bobby?

[Daniel Martin]

I think we need to borrow Aunt Alice.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

I mean, I think that's why they're so special.

[Daniel Martin]

Yeah. I mean, I think it's important to have friendships outside of work, and that's what keeps me grounded. I mean, I feel like upstate has definitely been my Aunt Alice in the sense that, like, it's so normal up here, and there's such great community up here, and you just need to get out of your Manhattan bubble.

[Bobbi Brown]

Which is why I moved to New Jersey the day I got back from my honeymoon and raised my family in a suburb of New Jersey. And I've not left. Same reason.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

They're not as affected by the.

[Daniel Martin]

They don't care.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

The excitement of what you do.

[Bobbi Brown]

No, no, no, no. I mean, you know, look, in my town, people do stop me. You know, they tell me how much they love Jones Road. You know, I had. I was in Kohl's buying underwear once, and they're like, what are you doing here? I'm like, I'm.

[Jessica Matlin]

Sit down, lady.

[Bobbi Brown]

I'm buying. I'm buying underwear.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Cash, though.

[Bobbi Brown]

No, no, no, I didn't. I don't have Kohl's cash. I just used my credit card. It wasn't for me. It was underwear for someone else. But they're like, what are you doing here? I'm, like, buying socks and underwear. I mean, like, it's normal.

[Daniel Martin]

Oh, my God. That's so funny. That happened to me up here at Home Goods when I first moved up here getting stuff, the apartment. Someone's like, are you on Megan's show? And I'm, like, looking around like, you're

[Bobbi Brown]

asking me, well, you'll have to walk into Ulta with me. Or Sephora, like in Palm Beach, Florida, or Palm Beach Gardens, because they have these kids freak out. They're like, what are you doing here?

[Daniel Martin]

I mean, does it. Now I'm going to ask you a question, like, how does it feel after the fact that you've had this kind of resurgence in a different way? Because, I mean, there's like, my generation that knew you from the brand, the books. Now it's like solely Jones Road. Do you get people, like, trying to, like, oh, wait, are you the original Bobby Brown?

[Bobbi Brown]

Right. Yeah, exactly. You know what? It's all I have to say. I feel very lucky because I had this incredible, like, journey and success, and then I thought I was done, and somehow I wasn't. It's invigorating and energizing that I'm doing what I love. And by the way, I'm doing the same thing, but completely different.

[Daniel Martin]

Yeah.

[Bobbi Brown]

And I love, like, people get, like, I spent an hour on the phone today with someone that has a makeup line that's really struggling, and, you know, he was asking me a lot of questions, and I'm like, okay, just stop. First of all, go on TikTok and just start talking to people. Like, just. Yeah, just do things differently than you ever did. Our world is so different, and you've got to, like, lean into it.

[Daniel Martin]

Do you like TikTok more than Instagram or.

[Bobbi Brown]

I like Instagram because I'm a visual junkie. But I. I do put things up on TikTok, and that kind of, you know, they go viral sometimes, and there's something going on right now, and I'm like, oh, yikes.

[Daniel Martin]

Is it, like, a different. And that's the other thing, too. I feel like the virality of things and the way that things blow up now are so different than before. Even, like, five years from now. Do you feel like for a brand, you need those moments and those hits, or is there, like, a way to be slow and steady wins the race?

[Bobbi Brown]

Well, I think both. You know, you need to be slow and steady, but you need to just lean in and try these things and not be afraid.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Were you scared?

[Bobbi Brown]

No, I'm not. I'm. I'm not really. I'm very fearful about the safety of my kids and people I love. I have no fear about work things. Like, I hop on stages, don't think about it. I'm not worried. Look, if something doesn't work, so it doesn't work. Right. It's like, okay, well, that's just a message to do it differently. Right. You can always.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

You don't personalize it.

[Bobbi Brown]

I don't. I don't.

[Daniel Martin]

That's amazing.

[Bobbi Brown]

Yeah. And you gotta be a little fearless. Like, I. Like, I'm sure. Daniel, like, the first couple times I went to the White House after Obama and Michelle were in there, and they were like, you can't take a picture no pictures. You can't. So you couldn't post anything. I had this stuff. I could not do it. And I'm sure when you were at the royal wedding, you had those same things, like you couldn't do that. And now it's different. Right now it's like, everything is different.

[Daniel Martin]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

That's interesting. Yeah.

[Daniel Martin]

Yeah. More is more. Which is so weird because we grew up in a time where it was just like, you're selling out, right?

[Bobbi Brown]

Exactly.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Do you feel like you guys have had so many accomplishments, so many hits? Almost like I'm thinking of, like, records or movies. You've had so many hits, but now people's attention spans, they're so short. Do you feel like you have to keep on pumping out the hits? Like, okay, the next Jones Road miracle thing or the next. But you guys have these major legacies, but now people's attention spans. And the beauty world is like. I feel like it's on this crazy spinra.

[Bobbi Brown]

Yeah. But you gotta keep doing what you do, right? You gotta keep doing what you do, and you gotta color outside of the lines and just take a little more risks. And what's the big deal?

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Yeah. Yeah, I like that. What's the big deal? You have a pretty casual attitude about it.

[Bobbi Brown]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

For artists who may be listening to this or other professionals, how much does a creative need to put of themself in their work? Today? I think of other people who. Or other lines that have come out in the past. And it wasn't about them as a person. It was about their product, their artistry, but it wasn't about their Persona necessarily in their life. Today I look at some of the biggest makeup artists or biggest, you know, hairstylists, whatnot, and it's a lot about them. Do you think it's necessary?

[Bobbi Brown]

I just think it's what people want to know. Like, I'd be curious, like, Daniel, what'd you eat for breakfast today? I'm serious. Like, what'd you eat for breakfast?

[Daniel Martin]

I just discovered this new oat. It was like a. Oh, God. It's an oat milk, yogurt and a banana.

[Bobbi Brown]

Yuck.

[Daniel Martin]

Because I'm lactose. It was really good.

[Bobbi Brown]

Okay.

[Jessica Matlin]

Yeah.

[Bobbi Brown]

Well, I guess. Cause you can't eat yogurt, but by the way, those are the things that people are curious about. Yeah. I wanna know how you get your skin looking so good, but I also wanna know who is the real Daniel. Like, who's like, Jessica, what'd you have for breakfast today?

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Ooh, a bagel with cream cheese and jelly. Fresh bagel. Fresh bagel.

[Bobbi Brown]

Wait. You could eat a bagel with cream cheese and jelly and, like, no side effects.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

No.

[Bobbi Brown]

Your pants. Oh, my God. If I ate a bagel with cream cheese and jelly, I would pass out. Oh, my God, I would pass out. I'd be so tired, and I would. I'd have to open the button on my pants. So I'm very jealous.

[Daniel Martin]

I love that so much. But I guess I think the challenge is, how do you like. I think, for me, anyways, how do I do that? Like, I can't. There's. There's just. I. I think there's this thing for me that just, like, there's only so much that I want to share.

[Bobbi Brown]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

I'm the same way, Daniel. I know.

[Daniel Martin]

Do you know what I mean? It's just like. And then it's just like, who cares, right?

[Bobbi Brown]

Well, I don't share, like, the stuff I share with my best friends. Right. Like, you know, if my husband. I Are fighting or my, you know, son's pissing me off.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

No, no, go.

[Bobbi Brown]

I don't share those things. And I always think of it. What I'm sharing will encourage or help someone because I've kind of focused on empowering people around me to live more comfortably. I share things that I think would help. And I'm sure you get sent a lot of things, Daniel and Jessica. You both do. I post them because I kind of want to give back to the other founders just to say, you know, I don't say, oh, my God, I love this. It's amazing. Unless I really love it. I just say, thanks for sending it.

[Daniel Martin]

Totally.

[Bobbi Brown]

You know, everyone's like, why are you doing that? I said, because, you know what? Everybody, like, why wouldn't I do it? You know, I just want to help people.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Yeah. All right, Bobby, what did you almost not put in the book?

[Bobbi Brown]

First of all, why don't you come to Montclair, and I will get a really nice martini or a tequila, and. And I'll tell you all the stuff I didn't put in the book, and you will know why, and you will.

[Jessica Matlin]

I'm putting on my shoes, right?

[Bobbi Brown]

You will think that's very smart of me. Cause, you know, when I wrote the book, and I say we. Cause my husband. I had a ghostwriter, but my husband helped me word by word, you know, the final edit. And he would say, why do you need to say it like that? And he was great. He was. He was completely right. I didn't want to hurt anyone's feeling. I wanted to Tell the truth and explain what I went through. But I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings, and I didn't want anyone to think that I was still angry, because I'm not.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

There was nothing in the book that had any shade or, like, any.

[Daniel Martin]

It was very diplomatic.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Yeah. Yeah, it was good.

[Bobbi Brown]

Yes.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

And, Daniel, what can we expect from your next chapter?

[Bobbi Brown]

That's what I'd like to know.

[Daniel Martin]

Oh, my God. I know. It's so funny.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Or you can tease. You can tease. Or what are you working on?

[Daniel Martin]

I mean, I love supporting my friends, and I love supporting, like, working with Tatcha. I've learned so much. I've learned so much. And I think for me, as an artist, it's like, how do I continue to learn and grow and still be creative and not be bitter or burdened about how our whole ecosystem of beauty has changed?

[Bobbi Brown]

Yeah, but how about a Daniel product? I don't care if it's like, something you eat or something you put on your face or your hair.

[Daniel Martin]

I mean, I've done fun collabs.

[Bobbi Brown]

Like, I just know your own.

[Daniel Martin]

Oh, yeah.

[Bobbi Brown]

I don't know. Yeah,

[Daniel Martin]

Yeah.

[Bobbi Brown]

I don't know.

[Daniel Martin]

I think for me, it needs to be something just innovative and interesting. Just because we've seen so much. We've, you know, we've been so lucky to understand how things are made. And. And I'm looking. You know, what makes me super geeked out about is something that's helping. Something, like whether it's acne or ingrown hair or something that's, like, can fix. That's. That's where I, you know, start turning my wheelhouse.

[Bobbi Brown]

So what gets rid of an ingrown hair?

[Daniel Martin]

Oh, gosh. There's. I, like, I have a whole process with shaving my head, and if I were to create something, it would probably around that, because I do feel like shaving and trying to look a certain, like, with ingrown hair and bumps.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

I've never heard anything like that. Yeah.

[Bobbi Brown]

No, but this is your brand. Because, by the way, think about all the women who are going through chemo and lose all their hair. Think about all the men that are losing their hair. Like, there's no brand dedicated to beautiful heads.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Yeah. Oh, my God.

[Bobbi Brown]

I see it as your brand. Sunscreen, crystal ball.

[Daniel Martin]

I know, I know.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

That's actually a brilliant name. That's a brilliant name. Daniel.

[Daniel Martin]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

Oh, my God, guys, thank you so much. This was such a great chat. I could probably keep you here forever, but I'll let you do what you do best. Just. Thank you. This is great.

[Bobbi Brown]

Oh, thanks, guys. And now I feel like we had a social life. Thank you. We didn't have to leave our houses.

[Daniel Martin]

I love it. Totally.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

It's so nice being home. And Bobby, you don't have to go far for much.

[Bobbi Brown]

I love it. I don't.

[Daniel Martin]

I know. Gosh, you really built something so amazing.

[Bobbi Brown]

Oh, thank you. Thank you.

[Daniel Martin]

Seriously, like hitting every single point and owning it. You know what I mean? And that's. I think that's what people need to understand, is that you can create your own system.

[Bobbi Brown]

You can. You can.

[Daniel Martin]

Yep. It's so important.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

All right. What did you think? First episode out, I thought they were great.

[Jessica Matlin]

We're gonna be doing more of these. More artist salon. Have a bunch of new franchises for you. So get ready to be surprised. If you have guest suggestions, guest requests, feedback, email me at infoattmascara. Follow me on all the socials if you want to raise a wand. If you don't know what a razor wand is, that means you're new, which is fantastic. So welcome. Send your raise a wand, which is a product favorite suggestion, to infoatmascara. You can even send it as a voicemail. Send it to info at fat mascara. Any products that we mentioned during the show, you can shop them at shopmyshelf. Go to shopmy usshop fatmascara and you can shop directly from our little in shop. And we'll see you here next week every Wednesday. Thank you so much for listening.

Thank you for listening to fat mascara. If you like the show, consider giving us a rating and review on itunes, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Jennifer Goldstein]

This helps other people find the show.

[Jessica Matlin]

Follow us on social at mascara and email me at infoatma mascara. I would love to hear from you and to shop the products heard on the episode. Check out fat mascara on shop my shelf. This show is produced by Red rock music. I'll see you next time.