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- [00:00]
A
This episode of Fat Mascara is presented by Milani Cosmetics, a brand who believes that what's inside matters. Hey, everyone. Welcome to Fat Mascara. It's Jessica. Okay, so excited about our guest today, Camille Moore. Her bio is pretty tight. She is the Internet's favorite branding expert, and I actually think she can lay claim to that. Everyone on the Internet has a point of view and beauty people really love to wax poetic about it. And I have to say, people, they make some really fair points. But Camille, really, like, she is what my mother would call a smart cookie. She really knows her stuff. She talks about beauty in a way that is so well informed. She really is one of the most sought after beauty experts or beauty branding experts, and I learned so much from her content. I, I think that you're going to really soak up everything she says, whether you're a consumer, whether you're a founder, whether you are an executive. When I told folks that we were having her on, everyone was like, absolutely losing their mind. So I think you're going to enjoy this interview. She's one of the most well respected experts here out on the Internet. So without any further ado, Camille Moore. Camille. Camille. Camille. All right. I've been following you. I love your videos, I love your podcast. I love that you're a podcaster. So you know how this whole thing rolls. You know, you talk about a lot of, like, very businessy, very businessy. We're at the business desk right now. But you really open up about yourself and, like, where you've come from.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And it's not often that people who talk about business and corporate and like, you know, kind of flashy topics are open about, like, where they come from. And you talk about that you don't come from means, which I love.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And I don't come from a flashy background either. I don't really talk too much about myself, but I don't come from a flashy background. And I think it's interesting when people who have that experience end up in businesses where it's so much about the flash and so much about the brand and aspiration and luxury. Can you help me understand, growing up, what brands really meant something to you? What brands were you gravitating to?
- [02:31]
B
Well, brands to me were like the passport into a world that I didn't understand, but, like, I knew I wanted to be a part of. And that's why I speak so openly about my story, because I didn't realize when I was a kid that I was starting my career in branding at
- [02:49]
A
what age like 5, 6, like pre
- [02:52]
B
K. So we had to shop at literally back. I'm from Canada, so it's called Value Village. It was like the Salvation army. And I didn't know I was poor. That's kind of the best part is that my parents were.
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A
Your parents did a good job then.
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B
They did. My mom worked three jobs so that I could go to camp, so that I could be like the other kids. And I was from a really poor part of town that, like, I really had it the best in that environment.
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A
Right.
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B
But my point is, is that my mom would laugh because when we used to go to Value Village, I would, like, hoard the brands.
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A
Was it secondhand? Like, was it like, okay, yeah, yeah.
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B
Everything was used.
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A
Okay. So it wasn't like a Marshall's TJ's where it's off price. This was secondhand. So you would be getting a secondhand guest shirt or something like that.
- [03:40]
B
Yeah, as young as I can remember, like 5 and 6, like, I would be buying. Picking the purses off the shelves. And like, I had to have. I still do this. Bags inside of the bags, inside of the bags. I had to have the blue patent leather shoes from. I was always. I was always obsessed with a logo that it meant something. And I didn't realize that that meant something, actually, until I was. I got myself a job at 14. I worked at McDonald's. And the reason why I got myself a damn job is I asked my parents for this bright t. It was $158 plus provincial taxes. And my parents were like, are you on drugs at 14? They're like, you think we're buying you a neon teal jacket? They're like, get a job. And I'm like, perfect, I will get a job. So I, like, literally marched. It was like, in Canadian terms, like 2 km with my resume, put my application in, and they hired me when I was 14. But I had to officially start on my birthday because he had to be 15 legally to work in the province. And my first paycheck, I bought a coach bag, my bench jacket, and a purple BlackBerry. And the rest was branding history.
- [04:50]
A
Oh, my gosh, that's fun. So when. Okay, I want to go back to Value Village for a second because I'm curious as, by the way, this is. I hard relate to a lot of what you're saying. But this is your interview when you were a little kid at Value Village. What brands? Even as a little kid, because little kids and I want to get to this now. Little kids even know what Brand brands are. Which is fascinating and a little disturbing to me. But, like, what brands as a little kid meant something to you?
- [05:17]
B
When I was a little kid, it was actually a lot of, like, movie or, like, band memorabilia. Like, it was about. It wasn't so much at that time because again, like, I'm 30, so we're talking, like, in the late 90s. Like, I liked Nike, I liked brands, but I also liked brand tees. Like, I had really. My parents loved classic rock, so I had, like, AC DC T shirts. Like, I liked associative imagery that, like, I thought meant something. And then as I got older, like grade five, six, seven, eight, I went to a camp where a lot of wealthier kids went to. And the thing that was interesting about Canada is we were always late to get the cool brands in the US So all my friends that went to camp, they had houses in Florida or they would go to the States. So this kind of obsession with Hollister and Abercrombie really came in because we couldn't get it. So the thing that was really interesting is, like, the brands that I started really wanting was, like, Americans, American Girl in grade three or four, Like, I begged. My mom made a whole case to get an American Girl doll. And it was. He had to order it from the catalog. It was honestly, it was really the Americana. Like, in Hollywood right now, the dream was to get to Hollywood. It was like. It was. My obsession was understanding, like, what made kind of that American dream. And like, what were those American brands? It wasn't yet the luxury European houses that came later.
- [06:38]
A
Now, first of all, I should have said when I said, like, it's a little disturbing when I say brand. I guess I was thinking more of, like, fashion brand, beauty brand, that kind of thing. Anything could be a brand. Like, Disney is a brand. A band is a brand. A restaurant is a brand. Everything is a brand. So I shouldn't be that disturbed. But what kind of gives me a little bit of a. Is when I think about growing up, being in second grade, and everyone had to have. You can say that our age difference right now. Everyone had to have a Champion sweatshirt.
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B
And, you know, it's like Cabbage Patch Dolls. When I was in grade two, like, it was huge.
- [07:13]
A
Yeah. I mean, I wanted a cab. I think my dad may have had to climb on someone's back to get a Cabbage Patch doll in the 80s. But this isn't a new thing. But what is new to me or what strikes me as new is I said I wasn't going to talk about Myself. But it feels like we need to have this ping pong in order to understand a conversation. So, you know, when I was growing up, I was super into beauty and I was a bit of a weirdo that I was super into. I wonder if any of my high school buddies and like classmates are listening to this. I was like a freak at the mat counter at like age 14, hanging out at the Nordstrom in the luxury beauty area because I was super obsessed with luxury makeup as a teenager. Now even the girls who had Kate Spade and Prada bags in the 90s were not so into luxury makeup. They were fine with drugstore makeup. Luxury makeup was not a thing when I was a teenager. Now 12 year old, 13 year old, 14 year old girls, luxury makeup is, is just, it's an, it's an option. It is an option. You know, you have Sephora, Ulta. Yeah. How did luxury makeup. Luxury beauty, I should say. And luxury brands, like, when do you think that sort of became table stakes for a certain demographic of young people? That to me is still like, I'm still kind of like, wait, when did luxury brands start kind of getting like attracting a younger and younger and younger and younger and younger customer?
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B
Well, it's actually like a really brilliant kind of long tail because it's first. It's interesting. Like really the makeup Craze started with Mac, originally a Canadian company, blew up in the U.S. like the lipsticks, those lip liners, like were literally everything. And then by the time it kind of hit my age demo was really the YouTubers, like that's really like my age was when the YouTube beauty experts like the Nicole Guerreros, the Jaclyn Hills, we would watch every video and it was interesting because I had the right discretionary income to treat myself at that price point. Right. And that's where you saw like Hourglass Partner or you started seeing these partnerships. Jeffree star Gigi Gorgeous. Like they. It was such an easy way for me to treat myself when I had a job to get a 50, 60, you know, $70 item and I had so much makeup. I also collected the Mac lipsticks too. But then what you started to notice is like the luxury houses were like, how do I get into entry point strategy? And before makeup, it were things like, you know, the Goyard wallet, you know, and even going back further from that, I recently finished the Cartier book, which I highly recommend. But it is a bible. Like it is literally this thick. They even started doing that going back in the 40s and 50s. They started doing silver and gold trinkets because they needed an entry point during depression, like economic depressive eras. And luxury houses made that a part of its. It's kind of a feature where we need to like the love bracelet was created in the 70s as an entry point strategy because the average consumer is not buying a custom emerald jewel necklace. Right. Like, yeah, that is. So how do you get people into the universe? And then Bulgari did it 25 years ago with their hotels and resorts. Right. So you saw luxury houses trying to figure out. And then also. Let me take a step back before I answer that. The thing that's also crazy about luxury is that the 90s, so luxury was dying before women entered into the workforce. And during the 90s there was a huge swell for ready to wear. That's why, why the preda porter became a thing because women entered the workforce and they weren't wearing suits. And that's why they needed to create this like upscale premium clothing line that allowed working women with successful jobs, with high paying jobs to have things to wear that match their, their status. And so you saw in the 90s a really a huge boom in fashion where you saw the shop and shops of the department stores. And as all of this is happening, these luxury houses that start to become conglomeratized are like, how do we make more money? How do we bring more people into our universe? How do we world build? Before that word world build came into motion and beauty is now the largest generator of money for these brands. Because girls who are 12, 13, 14, younger, my niece who is literally kid you not 8 years old, was at my bridal shower and somebody brought in her mess bag and she goes, is Camille getting a Birkin? I'm like, how the hell do you know this? You are 8 years old. Where are you learning this?
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A
Well, how do you think she learned it? How do you think she learned YouTube?
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B
YouTube.
- [11:55]
A
So it's, it's, so it's social. Like you're pointing to, you mentioned like Gigi Gorgeous, Jeffree Star. They're the ones who populated, you know, all of their videos and everything.
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B
They started with me.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Back when I got into what we got into it, it was more vlogging. It was like basic makeup, like Ulta Target makeup. But it's changed. Like YouTube for kids. Like the thing is like When I was 8 or 9, I didn't know what her mess was. That's why when like what the brands were, they were G unit sprinters, they were fat farm. Like it was like more regular price brands. Now YouTube is consumed in more homes than any other digital format. And it's gone to the kids.
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A
I think, like a lot of people, their first introduction to Hermes was Sex and the City with the Lucy Liu episode in the Birkin.
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B
Oh, my God. Totally.
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A
But that was.
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B
You were older. You were not eight?
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A
Yeah, no, I was. No, I was like a teenager.
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B
Yes.
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A
Yeah, totally. So people were calling it Ermes, I heard. There was a guy I went to school with, he called it Hermes, but he was like boasting. He's like, yeah, I'm gonna have like an. I'm gonna get an Hermes watch. And you know, people call it like, channel, like. But people were totally oblivious to it and they were, yeah, that's fine. You know, like. And now people are so much more sophisticated and well versed and they have aspirations and it's just. Even if people can't afford it, it's incredible to see how comfortable people are using the language of luxury, even if that's not in their price bracket. And it's fascinating because even on the beauty level, it's just trickled down so much. But on the flip side of that, I've heard you talk about how, yes, you know, luxury is a huge part of beauty culture, but at the same time, smaller items, you've called it Labubu culture, you know, lip gloss culture, face. You've not said face wash culture. But these smaller items.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Are equally as important. Can you expand on that?
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B
Yeah. So the thing that's really fascinating for a lot of industries, beauty, specifically with this being a beauty podcast, is it's. It's very complicated to break someone's buying habits, especially when it costs mental calories.
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A
What is a mental. Whoa. What's a mental calorie?
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B
How much brain power it takes to make something make simple sense. Okay, so the way. The reason why that's a relevant statement, it should be something that lingers with you, especially if you're in marketing or if you own a business, if you're a founder. What messes up a lot of founders strategy is that they're asking too much of the consumer to figure it out. Everyone is the hero in their. They're the main character in their own story. They're living their life through their own lens. When you create a. When you create an ad or a website page or a social feed where, where you're talking about yourself, you know, like, how did I start this? How did I come into this? Why you should choose my product? You're asking the consumer too much mental calories to care. And when you read a lot of ads that aren't effective. They're trying to be too clever. Like, it takes it. That. That's why it's a. It's actually. It's a whole own conversation. But a book I. If this interests you, that I recommend is called Microscripts by Bill Schley. And the core premise is that the best messaging or positioning that works is, like, it's simple, to the point. So like Buckley's. It's a Canadian cough syrup. The tagline is, it tastes awful, but it works if, you know, like, bounty. The quicker. Picker upper.
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A
Picker upper.
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B
The reason why our content does so well. I try to speak at a grade three level because I'm. You're in an attention economy. You have to speak fast. You have to speak simply.
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A
I better start speaking more simply.
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B
Camille, It's a huge problem because, like, we speak even if we speak at a high school level, we don't think, like, we're so inundated. Think about how many things are going on in your day. Like, you have to pick up your kids, you gotta pay your taxes. You've got three deadlines. Your husband's calling you. Like, you gotta make dinner. Like, shit, Lisa wants to meet on Thursday. And then you open your phone while you're processing all this shit, and then you're like, the vitality serum that. It's like, it doesn't click. It doesn't click.
- [16:08]
A
All right, I gotta rephrase my next question. We got. My next question's way too complicated. All right, let's move along. Let's move along.
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B
Okay. No, ask it. I can simplify it.
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A
Okay, don't worry. I'm gonna put everything to the Camille Moore filter.
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B
Okay, well, sorry.
- [16:24]
A
Okay, so now I'm reading my next question. Like, this is crazy. This doesn't make sense. It's way too complicated.
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B
Okay?
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A
So I said. Okay. My next question is that you said that branding isn't about checking boxes. I thought that was really smart. Okay, it's about world building. Well, world building does not sound like it's at the third grade level. That sounds hocus pocus. Okay. What on earth is world building? I feel like I'm in Legoland.
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B
What is world building? It's actually interesting. It's actually more simple than you think. World building is just. No, no, don't stop. We're having a good time. World building is actually.
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A
Let's world build. Okay. Let's world build fat mascara. Okay. In three. Let's world build it.
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B
So world building fat mascara is the podcast is an entry point. You would do some kind of a conference or like an in person, in real life activation. You would do something that like, builds onto this, maybe like a reading list, like, recommended. Like, you would do something that builds into your community. So the question is why? And I'll take a step back to lean more into that. So the reason why world building is such an interesting topic that's not going anywhere is because we've now become complacent with a digital world. We now live digitally first, even though we're carbon 4D bodies living in a 40 world. The thing that is complicated is that the barrier to entry, to create a product, to buy, you know, to hire a graphic designer online is now easy and cheap. So the real indicator if you have a legit brand, if other people are buying into the tribe, is to build a world. Because the real indicator of if your brand is legit is if people will show up for it in real life. Like, fitness and activewear is such a great example. You can drop ship, right? Like, it's not legit unless, like, you've got cute chicks lining down the street that want to get into your popup. Like, that's when you know and right.
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A
It's like if you build it, will they come? Question, will they come? Yeah.
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B
And that's the kind of the big thing. And it's why you actually have to spend money on branding. Branding is very different than marketing. Branding is building a world that someone can buy a passport in. Like, how are we in a world that. Summer Fridays partners with Gap and people are wearing a face wash brand across their chest. It's because they built a world. It's because people want to show that they're a part of Summer Fridays. Yeah.
- [19:03]
A
This episode is brought to you by Milani Fat Mascara created a totally new conversation in beauty, one that goes beyond the surface to get to know our guests on a deeper level. That's why, for our 10th anniversary, I'm so proud to partner with Milani, a brand who believes that what's inside matters. Case in point, Milani just reformulated their iconic bake collection to make it even more luxurious for their customers. Try it and you will feel the upgrade I did. The texture is so smooth, the powder so fine, you can sweep on layers and layers for weightless, luminous color. They've upgraded their best selling bake blush formula, added four new shades, and launched new bronzer and highlighter formulas. Four new shades each. Always inclusive, Milani has a wide range of shades for every skin tone and Undertone. I'm wearing the new cool tone pink panna cotta blush, perfect for spring. The quality is exceptional. No surprise as the collection is crafted in Italy. Slow baked on terracotta tiles. The new formula lasts for up to 12 hours, feels great on the skin, and is now infused with skin nourishing grape leaf extract and olive fruit oil. Try the collection for yourself. Get 25% off of your purchase at Milanicosmetics.com using the code FATMASCARA25. How is what they did different than Glossier? And that's not rhetorical, it's a genuine question. With the sweatshirt and all that, Glossier
- [20:22]
B
started the world building. It's really what is what, it's what created the groundswell of these founder brands getting into this, this, this direct to consumer market that wasn't Estee Lauder or l' Oreal owned. It was a brand new concept. And that's what made Glossier break out, is that people wanted to go into these stores, they wanted to take selfies with those iconic mirrors, they wanted their pencils in the, you know, in the bubble wrap makeup bag. Glossier started it. It's just that Glossier lost it along the way. And I think that like, the difference outside of, you know, what's public knowledge for what happened is that people like Mariana Hewitt that built a platform, had better data and understood a consumer better because that space could maturate. And that was the difference between when Emily Weiss started it versus when Mariana Hewitt and Lauren Ireland, formerly Lauren Gores, started that brand. So Glossier kind of built the playbook and summer Fridays flew the plane. And now it's 2021 was purchased by Unilever. And that's why your last question was interesting. The whole point of when you have this world is like, how do you get more people into it? And initially it was face wash. One of the biggest companies in the world had hired me years ago and they would always price that as a lost leader because no one's loyal to face wash. And if you're washing your face two, three times a day, you go through it pretty quickly. It's easier to get someone to come in and try your face wash than it is to try your skin cream. And now that's changed to lip balm.
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A
Lip balm. Yeah.
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B
Yeah.
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A
It's also something that you take out all the time and people are looking at. Yeah, it's like a cutie patootie kind of thing.
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B
It's a social first content post and that's really what catapulted road to get that billion dollar acquisition is that she created something that was the ultimate selfie. Right. Like how few. Like how often are you posting your bathroom shelf? Or like the toner you're putting on your face, like lip gloss has just such a higher multiple. Yeah.
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A
Yeah. Okay. So a lot of, you know, beauty brands, like, they're, you know, beauty is a creative industry. It's an emotional product. It's an artistic product. But as we know, a lot of these brands are owned by big corporations which don't like to take big bets. And, you know, the bets are getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And corporations don't like a lot of risk. Right, yeah. Have you seen any brands that have really, you know, companies that have really thread the needle on taking a risk with a personality but still having success?
- [23:08]
B
The problem is like public company and risk is just not a happy marriage. So, you know, so it. I think I understand the question. I think as a slight deviation, the thing that's like interesting and relevant is like there is a trade off when you sell. And that's kind of the problem is that that's often when I'm brought in is how can they maximize more when they kind of also killed that art that made it what it is? And that's kind of this where, you know, art and quarterly sales figures don't quite, you know.
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A
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. Can you give me an example of a success though, where, like, it worked. We kept the magic, but we still.
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B
Well, I mean, Summer Fridays is owned by Unilever. They had the number one beauty product, you know, all of last year. They're doing great. I mean, I disagree with Sephora's strategy, but it's LVMH backed. You know, it's growing every year. Like it's a. It's a. It's a behemoth. The answer is yes. Like, the problem is, is that the what gets you here is not what gets you there. And that's like the, the core differentiation, you know, like what took, what allowed Haley to build what she could build to get that exit is different from. Than what you will see from this point forward. It's an interesting question, but it's also relevant of, like, what are we analyzing? Like, are we analyzing the ability to monetize off of a platform and to do it organically, or are we monetizing based on when something has hit the tipping point? Because, like, that's. There's two ways of slicing it. Like, there's still a whole bunch of 8 to 25 year olds that can get into the road universe. But it's also very different than what built that kind of cult following that got her to where she was.
- [25:00]
A
That's a really fair answer. That's a really fair answer. Okay, let's talk about established beauty brands. There's a lot of them right now that are kind of their executives are head in hands thinking, like, we need a refresh. How do you decide? Or, you know, we need a rebrand. How do you evaluate if a brand needs a complete overhaul or if it just needs a little.
- [25:23]
B
That is a very great question and that often I get asked binary questions. And I think as a starting point to answer that, I would, I would want everyone listening this to take one thing away from this conversation. What makes branding so fascinating is that no two brands are the same. They have there's this ethereal, intangible, tangible in one way. If we all closed our eyes and pictured the Nike hotel, we would probably picture the same hotel. Like, that's a brand. Like, when you can really. If we all close our eyes, we pictured the fat mascara hotel, like, what would that look like? And if we all kind of come to a somewhat of a same visual image, you have a brand. The thing that's unique about that exercise is if we think about the Nike Hotel and then we think about the Chanel Hotel, and then we think about the Sweet Greens Hotel, they're very different hotels. And that creates a very different framework. Because the way that I like to explain a brand is like, A brand is like a symphony. There's all these musicians, they're working together and the customer just hears one song and the song either like rocks it or there was something off. Like the. The consumer is often not attuned enough to be like, you know, the flutes, they weren't the best today. You know, like, they're not thinking in terms of like, ah, you know, the cello must be hungover because, you know, he didn't hit that like that, that D sharp, like it. When you hear it, you're like, like, yeah, that wasn't the best. And the. I'll get to the, the further answer, but that's why brand isn't your socials, it's not your logo, it's not the music you're playing in your store, it's not your customer service, it's that it's all of those things. So if somebody comes to me and they're like, let me look at your brand, like, I have to look at everything from like, what is the food that was served on my table. What was the service? How is the manager running this place? How does the bathrooms look like? What are the designs that you're putting out? So the core indicator, though, of when you need a revamp is when you feel like your brand has gone off course. A core framework I use is called the brand pillars. And I created this because most brands don't die a proverbial Bud Light death, meaning there's not like a controversial moment that, like, tanks the stock. Often what kills brands is a thousand wrong decisions that over time, your brand slowly starts to go in, like, a wrong direction. That's why brands like Lululemon, when we talk about them, there's such a visceral response because when it's gone public, it's made so many tiny wrong decisions that I don't feel insulted as a consumer. I just don't think about them. When I need to go buy activewear, like, I just. That I no longer associate because the association is no longer clear. When you've lost a lot of your core consumers, when you've realized that people aren't coming back, when you feel like there's something can notice it on your line cereal, you have a brand problem. And we need to figure out what is the diagnostic to get you back on track. But the problem is by the time your balance sheet can really notice, often you've. That you've made those thousand mistakes and it's going to cost more money.
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A
How do you check in if you're a brand manager?
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B
Yeah.
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A
How do you check in before you notice it on your balance sheet or establishing those brand pillars up front?
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B
So most people come to me thinking, I'll make them go viral. Like, they come from, like, an output solution, like, we want to go viral.
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A
That feels unrealistic.
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B
Well, not only is it unrealistic, but the reality is, is that social problems are always brand problems. When you look at the brands that have, like, the best socials online, like the ones that are really killing it, that have community, you could guess with a very high degree of certainty what's in their brand core. That's why that exercise of, like, the Road Hotel versus, like the Jisoo Hotel versus, like the YSL Beauty hotel, you have a very clear image. Your ability to see that clarity extends into their brand guide because everything they do is strategic to the brand that they're trying to put out into the world. The way that I work with brands is like, I have them first go through the brand core exercise, which most agencies do, but they end up, up, taking up space on your desktop and they're not used. So at the end of the brand core, we do the brand pillars and it's four P's. It's the purpose, position, personality and perception. And your goal is to have a very clear and well written brand core that's not full of stupid platitudes like, we care about our customers because, like, everyone cares about their customers. Like, it has to be like actually tied to what makes you different, why you're the best person for the job, what is your customer's problems. But anyways, basically the four P's should be two to three sentences condensing what exists in that brand core. So your purpose is like a mix between your mission, vision should be two to three sentences each, your position. Second P is the real estate you want to own. What is that corner of the Internet that you want to be yours? Nexus personality. How do you outwardly show up and then perception is the fourth. Personality and perception are very close, but the way you're perceived is different than the personality you put out. I could be funny, bold, to the point, approachable, but if I'm always in like sweatpants with like a dirty hair, like, that gives you a different perception to my personality, right? That's why I'm always in my spring colors.
- [30:58]
A
But who, who's the one who's gonna audit that? Like, if you're doing this in a vacuum and you're like, my personality is like bubbly, cute and blah, blah. And perception is like, like super serious, dry blah, you know, like, who's the person who's, who's telling you who that is? Because if it's like self directed.
- [31:17]
B
Yeah, well, you know what I'm saying? Problem with this shit, it's like in a perfect world, in a perfect world, you have the money to like hire someone. And you're also like, here's the issue, here's the issue. Let me dial back. The problem is like, like, this shit can't be taken lightly. Like, if you're a founder, you need to be reading all the books, listening to the case studies, like being obsessed with your brand. Like, you have to have the discerning ability to be like, I am not delusional in saying that my brand self awareness. So you have to be self aware. I can't really teach that. The best brands, like I have so much data on this, are the brands the founders are involved and they're surrounded by people that share the same vision and are propelling it forward. And you just, you ask A really good question. So to pare it back just to first, the brand pillar exercise. If you're excited by this, I have a course and I actually have a planner coming out that like walks you through step by step faboo. So that you can do this yourself with my framework.
- [32:24]
A
Wait, is it, is it out now? Like can our listeners go on the course?
- [32:28]
B
Yes.
- [32:29]
A
Okay.
- [32:29]
B
The planner, the physical book is gonna be out. April, there's nothing. The reason I created the book is because I was looking online for like a social media plan because I'm very visual, like I like to like and it didn't exist and I'm like. So it took me the last year and a half. It's my entire process beginning to end. I believe in abundance. I believe giving it all away. So if this excites you, you can do the whole process in both of those. Those pieces. Okay, cool. And I'll give you guys like a code too for a discount for them.
- [33:01]
A
Amazing.
- [33:02]
B
So look in the comments on this episode and we'll be there. What you want to do is you want them both to be like all. Every pillar to be two to three sentences. And the goal is every single marketing decision. Every time you or your team goes to do a month of socials, you're looking at doing a collab, you're looking at working with an influencer. You should go through those four pillars and see if that opportunity is an emphatic yes to those four P's. And I've done this with the luxury famous French houses to like startups and the brands that are killing it do things that are on brand. It's really that simple. My whole course in the book is designed to change your mindset about branding. It's not about chasing trends, it's not about trying to find the next like hoping your next piece of content goes viral. Hope is not a strategy. You have to understand what is your plan, what is your goal, how are you problem matching? Where are you giving value and does this in line with your brand? And to your question of the like, it's literally as you have to be self aware enough to have a clear understanding of what makes your brand different. To go back to that idea of mental capital salaries road is different than Jisoo, it's different than merit, it's different than Hourglass, it's different than Westman Atelier. They have different usps, they feel different, they look different, they vibe different. That is how you win. And uni, if it does not come naturally to you, you must be obsessed with it until it's a skill to learn and until you can. Because that's the difference between continuing to struggle or making a ton of money for your brand. Because the brands that win are brands. They're not businesses. They get this idea of brand.
- [34:49]
A
Brands that win are brands, not businesses. Okay, we'll end on that and let's go to a quick lightning round. All right, Camille Moore, you've seen it all the brands you love, they're brands. They're not businesses. That's going to stick with me for a while. I want to know what you're loyal to. We're just going to go through a couple products. Okay.
- [35:10]
B
Okay.
- [35:11]
A
Lip gloss. It's not a loyalty product, but I want to know which one's your favorite.
- [35:20]
B
Oh, my gosh, what a tough first question.
- [35:22]
A
Okay. I'm honestly a lip gloss ho.
- [35:25]
B
Like, I'm a lip gloss hoe. Like, this is the problem. I get to work with the best beauty brands, and I'm a very bold person. I will tell you what I'm loyal to in all in these questions. I don't give a fuck. Because I, you know, they need to know which ones I love the most. But I, I think the problem with lip gloss is that it's not that different. Like, it's not that different from formula to formula. Like, I like the wise lip gloss. You know, I like the anif style lip gloss. I like the Victoria Beckham lip gloss. But I don't find when I use lip gloss that it's a disproportionately, like, incredible experience. And I think that that's why in lip gloss, there's actually space for like, like, innovation. And why, like, this kind of moving into, like, nad stuff, like, I think that could change my perception. But lip gloss has just been such a tokenized, color based throw in your purse product that it'd be dishonest be. But I don't feel the same way about other products.
- [36:21]
A
All right. Mascara, I guess.
- [36:23]
B
Fake eyelashes.
- [36:25]
A
Oh, she's dodging everything. She's dodging everything. Okay, okay. What's a, what's a product that you feel like, you know, there's a superiority about? She's totally upending my FM5. Go on.
- [36:39]
B
I know. The problem is, like, I started getting these fake eyelashes about a year and a half ago because I look like a child when I show up on zoom in the morning. And I hate wearing makeup. So I just, I need to professionalize myself. Products I think are amazing that I can't live without. I really love the Makeup by Mario Skin Perfect. Like, kind of. It has like the gradient on it. I love. I love that kind of like glowy look. I love the Sisley foundation. It's got like a glow. Fantastic, a fantastic formula. Love that product. I love the Sisle, the purple black rose mask. It's like a five minute mask. I love that product.
- [37:19]
A
We're not worthy. I love that one. It's my favorite sizzle product.
- [37:22]
B
It's the back best. Yeah, yeah, it's the best. Actually. What's interesting is, like, I try a lot of beauty products, but I find, like, I really go back to my ride or dies.
- [37:30]
A
Yeah.
- [37:31]
B
Same Colombian brand. I love their blush. Bella Beauty, the number one Colombian beauty brand. Love that. I love Victoria Beckham stuff. You know, I actually want to do a piece of content on this. She really cracked this space of where, like, women that want chic makeup could not find a product before her. Like, everybody piece of product that I get from her, like, from her PR team. I'm like, shit, this is like tortoise Celine glasses in a lip gloss.
- [37:57]
A
So do you think if you're advising her, does she have to come out? She have to say anything or is it like, say nothing?
- [38:05]
B
She, to me, is a fascinating case study because she literally had no personality before someone told her, get a personal brand. And she is the perfect example that I give to founders of, like, suck it up and get online. If Victoria Beckham can do it, who was like the queen of I'm too good for you, and she's now showing behind the scenes of her life. It is clear that is what you need to be doing in 2026. Because she's like Kris Jenner. She makes no mistakes.
- [38:30]
A
Do we all need to get over ourselves?
- [38:33]
B
You know why you have to get over yourself? You had to get over yourself five years ago. And I wouldn't be here if not for. It was the shittiest thing for me to create content because I thought I was too good for it. I hated the idea of all these girls I know judging me, being like, you know what? Yesterday, Shani Darden posted a really nice story about me. And all of these little. These little rats came out of nowhere and were like, oh, my God, it's such a big deal. And I'm like, where the fuck have you been the last 10 years? Or I've been posting cringing, and you've been making fun of me behind my back. But. But this is why you need to do it now because AI is creating avatars. There's 48 million pieces of content that are being put out per day. That's before AI is infiltrating. With so much content, if you are a founder, it's going to be impossible to get ahead. Because. Because creating content takes time. That's why most people have given up, because they tried for three weeks and then it wasn't convenient. I've been doing this for five years, every single day, and it's cringey until it gets to a point where it's not cringy. And that's why you have to start now, because it takes time and AI has arrived.
- [39:37]
A
How long was the cringe hump? Like, how long did it take to break through the cringe? Two days or three years.
- [39:44]
B
It took me nine months to get a video to go viral. And I only posted back then on TikTok because it was so embarrassing. And you know what's crazy is that it stopped being cringy when business started coming in, which was about four months after that first viral video. But here's the thing, though. I had a feeling it was not cringy at that point. Literally, it sucked for the longest time. But what's interesting, though, is, is the people that I truly knew still didn't support me for years. It took. It's the loose tie phenomenon. People who know where you've come from hold you at a lower regard than people who meet you at face value. I'm way more impressive to someone who meets me today than someone who's known me on the journey that I've been on.
- [40:35]
A
No, that makes sense. Cause they see you a certain way and it's like, what's she doing, Camille?
- [40:41]
B
I mean, like, what does she know? You know, like, yeah, yeah, but. And that's the thing that is it's really hard for people is that how often as an adult, are you really making yourself that vulnerable? You create a piece of content, you put it out online, and it gets seven likes, and it's like your neighbor and your, like, kids, parents from soccer. And you're like, kill me now. But the problem is, like, you can't get to the opportunities you don't know you're losing until you start.
- [41:09]
A
That is a killer piece of advice. I'm gonna leave you with that. Everyone. Camille, thank you.
- [41:17]
B
Thank you.
- [41:17]
A
You just gave everyone a lot of great advice at a heavy discount.
- [41:23]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Get over yourself. The sooner that you. Immediately. Honestly, if I can give you all I. The reason why I talk about where I came from and who I am is I am on a ride of a lifetime. I've spoken. I've worked with the biggest beauty brands, and I come from legit the hood. And the only reason why I say that is because my content is my digital resume. Every single day, I show up and I post. I had no dad that did no intros. It's all because of social media, and the world is literally this big. But you have to put the content out there. Like, I'll put a piece of content out on the brand. The CEO is email me the next day to get on a call. There's never been a time in the history of the world where you can advocate for yourself in a free way. You don't need. You don't need a production.
- [42:16]
A
Yeah. You don't need family connections.
- [42:18]
B
You need an iPhone and you need a mic, and you need. And you need to get over yourself. And the problem. You have to do the reps. It's like golf or it's like skiing. It doesn't come easy to anybody. You just got to start.
- [42:29]
A
I. This, this. These are really powerful words, and I couldn't say them any better myself. So, Camille, thank you. Thank you for saying that. Thank you for putting that out there. I hope everyone is listening. That is so true.
- [42:43]
B
Till next time, tag me in your content along the way. Ladies,
- [42:54]
A
I got to tell you, I really like that conversation. And I wanted to talk to her longer. Sometimes I have. I don't know about you, but I have preconceived notions about how people are. She's so young, she's so together. And I was like, this is somebody who. She's probably been eating, breathing, brand since she was a little kid. And she probably came from this sort of place. And I was. So the more I learned about her and I obviously studied up before I interviewed her, I just thought it was so cool. She didn't come from the kind of background I expected she came from. She did eat and breathe bran, but she did it because she loved it. And she built this thing on her own. She does it because she loves it. And you can see that in her content. You can see that in her work. And I just. I think she's awesome. And she was super easy to talk to. She wrote back right away, camille, thank you. And I just. I just think she's great. So happy for her success. And I hope you really enjoy the interview as much as I did talking to her. Thank you for listening to Fat Mascara. If you like the show, consider giving us a rating and review on itunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. This helps other people find the show. Follow us on Social at FatMascara and email me at infoatmascara. I would to love love to hear from you and to shop the products heard on the episode. Check out Fat Mascara on Shop My Shelf. This show is produced by Red Rock Music. I'll see you next time.