Caroline Hirons is Back, Baby!

Summary

Fat Mascara: “Caroline Hirons is Back, Baby!”

Date: April 29, 2026
Host: Jessica Matlin
Guest: Caroline Hirons (Founder, Skin Rocks; Beauty Industry Expert)

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Episode Overview

This lively, candid episode features the return of Caroline Hirons, renowned UK skincare authority, for her most in-depth conversation yet with Jessica Matlin. The discussion dives into her journey from retail and media to building her brand Skin Rocks, her principles on leadership, hiring, and authenticity, and some unfiltered opinions on beauty industry trends, influencer culture, and the resilience required to survive—and grow—in a crowded market. With signature wit and warmth, Caroline reflects on midlife, menopause, her working style, and the state of skincare, offering invaluable wisdom (and a few rants) for both industry insiders and fans.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Caroline’s Return & Career Growth

• Caroline’s previous appearance was the most-listened-to episode in Fat Mascara’s 10-year history ([00:47]).
• Since last on, she founded Skin Rocks—described as an “intense” and quickly-growing adventure ([02:11]).
• Daily life is unpredictable: “No two days are the same…spinning plates, putting out fires.” ([02:23])
• Prefers entrepreneurial chaos over traditional corporate life.

2. On Being a Founder vs. Corporate Life

• She and Jess discuss why neither could go back to corporate media.
• Caroline: “I’m not a ‘yes’ person. And if something isn’t right or I don’t think it’s a good idea, I’ll say. And I don’t think there’s a lot of big corporations that are good at hearing that.” ([03:54])
• The beauty of hiring “no people” (people who can challenge her ideas): “They love nothing more than saying, ‘Boss, that’s a shit idea.’” ([04:12])
• On corporate vs. independent work: Some people just want a job; some want meaning and to “forge their own path.” ([05:31])

3. Building Skin Rocks: Challenges & Strategy

• “No surprises” in her journey—hiring and cash flow are the chief challenges for any founder ([05:50]).
• Building Skin Rocks was self-funded: “I fed the business through the kits…I was able to do it that way, so we were entirely self-funded until we took investment last year.” ([07:22]–[09:01])
• Innovated with “Caroline’s Kits”—collaborative boxes with brands, later reverse-engineered for her own business ([07:36]–[08:22]).

4. On Influence, Authenticity, and Launching Brands

• Differentiates herself from social media influencers: “I’m a qualified expert. And I never called myself an influencer. That was the difference. I never let myself be called an influencer.” ([09:49])
• Advice for aspiring brand founders: “If your personal brand is strong enough, do it. But ultimately, the product has to come first.” ([10:17])
• Criticizes celebrity brands that lack authenticity (e.g., Brad Pitt’s skincare brand: “You’ve just canned your own brand before you’ve even left the starting gate.”) ([10:35])
• Points to Hailey Bieber as someone who correctly leveraged a strong personal brand for product launch ([11:08]).

5. Trends, Industry Gimmicks, and Outspokenness

• Jess notes that many people have “taken a page from your playbook”—more direct, outspoken beauty creators now, but Caroline isn’t bothered: “The highest form of compliment. I don’t care. I’m just busy doing my own thing.” ([13:10])
• Focus remains on “science, not trends”: “I’m not looking at trends, I’m looking at science always.” ([13:15])
• Rants against clean beauty and “medical grade” claims: “Clean. Oh, I wonder why [it’s quiet now]. Good. Not quiet enough. I’ll tell you what else is meaningless...Medical grade. Science-backed. Fuck off. Dermatologist tested. Why do you want a dermatologist to test it? Get a scientist to test it in a lab...” ([13:54–14:50])
• On influencer clickbait and marketing: “I love the industry. What pisses me off is marketing departments within my industry.” ([14:59])

6. The Devaluation of Facials & Beauty Services

• Critiques messaging that undermines professional facialists:
  • “Brands whose entire marketing model is ‘break up with your facialist.’ Piss off. You would not say that to hair…because hairdressing is run by gay men and they will come for you. Facials and beauty therapy is run by women and women are an easy target.” ([15:12])
• Recalls her advocacy for the beauty industry during UK lockdowns: “...the men could place a bet, go to the pub, and get home, but women couldn’t have any beauty treatments. I was raging, and that’s what kickstarted me being at the forefront.” ([18:08])
• Beauty is the #2 employer of women in the UK; undermining it has real consequence for women ([17:10]).

7. On Outspokenness, Menopause, and Life Wisdom

• Caroline’s confidence and clarity as a communicator is hard-won:
  • Her mother, grandmother, and a Liverpool/Irish/American background instilled strength ([21:51]).
  • Perimenopause and menopause, lived online before the world, forced radical self-acceptance.
• “I am a post-menopausal grandmother who is tired of everyone’s bullshit.” ([21:09])
• HRT changed her life: “I went private...[they] sorted me out. And within 24, 48 hours...I really felt like I was back.” ([24:04])
• On post-menopausal joy: “Post-menopause is the best fucking time of my life.” ([24:22])
• “I’ve never slagged off a brand for clickbait. I’ve never done clickbait titles...When I’ve had a major problem with a brand...I just call the owner because I usually know them.” ([24:57])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On authenticity and independence:
  • “I’m surrounded by ‘no’ people. They love nothing more than saying, ‘Boss, that’s a shit idea.’” (Caroline, [04:12])
• On influencer culture:
  • “I never let myself be called an influencer. I see that bubble bursting.” (Caroline, [09:49])
• On clean, “medical grade” marketing:
  • “‘Science-backed.’ Fuck off. ‘Dermatologist tested.’ Why do you want a dermatologist to test it? Get a scientist to test it in a lab...” (Caroline, [14:40])
• On gendered devaluation in beauty:
  • “Facials and beauty therapy is run by women and women are an easy target.” (Caroline, [15:29])
  • “The beauty industry is the number two employer of women after the NHS. We employ more women than any other industry.” (Caroline, [17:10])
• On menopause and midlife:
  • “Post-menopause is the best fucking time of my life.” (Caroline, [24:22])
  • “I feel like I’ve never been stronger, known who I am more, stood in my truth more, stand up to bullshit more.” (Caroline, [24:37])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:00 – Catching up on Skin Rocks’ launch and daily founder challenges
• 04:49 – Corporate culture vs. entrepreneurship
• 07:22 – How Caroline self-funded her business (the story of “the kits”)
• 09:49 – The influencer bubble and brand-building tips
• 13:32 – Industry trends, imitators, and Caroline’s directness
• 14:24 – Rant on “clean,” “medical grade,” and misleading skincare marketing
• 15:12 – On marketing messaging that devalues facials and women’s work
• 18:08 – Advocacy during the UK lockdown; gender and beauty economics
• 21:50 – Origins of her forthrightness; impact of menopause
• 24:22 – The liberating power of post-menopause
• 27:26–35:57 – Lightning round (Fat Mascara Five): personal favorites, style, gig stories, her last iPhone note, Saturday routines (“pottering,” listening to music, ironing)

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The “Fat Mascara Five” – Lightning Round Highlights

• First beauty product loved: Lancôme cleanser (inherited from her mother) ([27:31])
• Favorite Duran Duran song: "Friends of Mine" (first album), “New Religion” (second album) ([29:14])
• Recent gigs: Still goes to concerts/theater, but “Glastonbury is not for me.” ([29:44])
• Last note on her iPhone: Hilariously blunt complaint about a stylist’s fashion choices for a shoot: “The clothes. Fuck me.” ([31:30])
• Typical Saturday at noon: “Probably in my kitchen, pottering—cooking, ironing...I have to have my pieces ironed.” ([34:24])

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Final Thoughts

Caroline Hirons delivers trademark honesty, humor, and actionable wisdom, blending war stories as a founder with deeply empathetic takes on women’s work and aging in the beauty world. Jess credits her as a “cut above”—someone who always “says the thing that sits right [in your gut]” ([20:31]) and continues to have industry influence as a straight-talking, science-forward voice.

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“I’ve never been stronger, known who I am more, stood in my truth more, stand up to bullshit more. But it also comes with a great deal of empathy. I’m not mean for the sake of it.”
— Caroline Hirons ([24:37])

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This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the real talk behind beauty branding, authentic leadership, and unapologetic selfhood at every stage of life.

Transcript

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[Jess]

This episode of Fat Mascara is presented by Milani Cosmetics, a brand who believes that what's inside matters. Hey, everyone. How are you? It's Jess of Fat Mascara. Okay, so she's in the building. Caroline's in the building. This is her second time on Fat Mascara. We also did the live with her during the pandemic, which was kind of a bright spot, but Caroline's back. And why is she back? Because her episode was the most listened to Fat Mascara episode in our 10 years of doing the show, which is wild. And I think that is something to really brag about. She's always frank, she's always funny, and she is very much unfiltered. So we're going to talk to her and we're also going to talk about her brand, Skin Rocks, which she didn't even have it the last time we're on the show, so we got a lot to catch up on. All right, take it away. Caroline. The first time we had you, I was on my belly balancing a microphone in my home studio during the pandemic.

[Caroline Hirons]

Nice.

[Jess]

Yeah.

[Caroline Hirons]

That pandemic we thought would all be over in two months.

[Jess]

I know, I know.

[Caroline Hirons]

Craziness.

[Jess]

Like rotting fruit on my desk. Tell me what. When we spoke to you, it was like Skin Rocks was just launching.

[Caroline Hirons]

Okay. We launched in November 22, so that's four, three and a half years ago.

[Jess]

Yeah, it was a long time ago. So tell me. It's been like a rocket ship for you.

[Caroline Hirons]

It's been intense. It's a lot.

[Jess]

What are you liking better? What is your day like? Are you.

[Caroline Hirons]

No. Two days are the same.

[Jess]

But that's kind of fun.

[Caroline Hirons]

Spinning plates, putting out fires. A lot of it is putting out fires, which I just think I've learned has come part and parcel with being a brand founder. Because every brand founder I know says the same thing.

[Jess]

It's not like you have a job description. You're just putting out fires.

[Caroline Hirons]

No, my job description is, oh, while I've got you, oh, five minutes from the team, but no complaints. The brand's doing really well.

[Jess]

Is it mostly managing people? Did you expect that?

[Caroline Hirons]

Yeah, but we have a lot of people, so it's a handful. But I'd rather do this than work corporate any day of the week.

[Jess]

I was literally at a dinner last night talking to two people. One of them is in media, but she owns her own media company, like small media. And the other one is also called a media jack of all trades kind of thing. And they were talking about she's nightmarish stories. And it was just like, never be a founder. Don't go here, like medieval, like thou, whatever the expression is, like, don't dare cross, you know? Cause they were talking about running your own thing. And I was like, this is really scary, guys. And I'd known them both through the media world. And I was like, yeah, but are you gonna go back to corporate? This sounds miserable. And they were like, oh, my God, never. Never. I was like, so you would choose this? Hell, I agree too. Versus. Yeah. And why? Cause you've worked corporate jobs. Right. You've worked in corporate environments.

[Caroline Hirons]

Yeah. Big square peg in a round hole.

[Jess]

And what about you? I mean, I know this is not your answer. It's probably not gonna shock me, but what about you doesn't fit in corporate?

[Caroline Hirons]

I'm not a yes person. And if something isn't right or it doesn't fit right or I don't think it's a good idea, I'll say. And I don't think there's a lot of big corporations that are good at hearing that. And that's the kind of exact opposite atmosphere we try to create here. You know, I'm surrounded by no people. Surrounded. They love nothing more than saying, boss, that's a shit idea. I'm like, thanks. They're literally like, whose idea is this? I'm like, mine. And they're like, ugh.

[Jess]

Were you always like that when you were in corporate or were you keeping it inside?

[Caroline Hirons]

Both. The fact I couldn't be me day to day was enough. When people just sort of say, you've got a lot of opinions. I'm like, well, what you're paying me for, it's like Jon Hamm in that scene from Mad Men, you know, that's what the money's for.

[Jess]

It is for. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caroline Hirons]

You're not paying me to say yes. If you want to pay someone to say yes, I'm not your person.

[Jess]

Well, I think a lot of companies, they, they hire people who they think are thought leaders. They hire a lot of creative types. They hire. I see this all the time.

[Caroline Hirons]

But the brand founders aren't. Don't want to hear it, or the CEOs or the MDs or whatever, they don't want to hear it.

[Jess]

They hire these starry people. But then as soon as there's like,

[Caroline Hirons]

well, as soon as someone gives us your feedback and you give it to them and they're like, almost offended. It's like if I was offended, everyone, every time someone said no to me or gave me feedback, I'd be in hospital. So, yeah, I. And I like structure, but I don't like to feel like my life has to be a certain way in that structure. And that's corporate. And it suits some people down to the ground. I've got great friends who've worked in corporate for decades and they love it. Suits them perfectly.

[Jess]

They just are able to like depersonalize or they.

[Caroline Hirons]

I think just some people just want a job. Some people want a career and a job and some people want to forge their own path, I suppose. And that's what I wanted to do.

[Jess]

A little bit more meaning. No, I understand that.

[Caroline Hirons]

Be a control and master of my own destiny, I suppose.

[Jess]

So how's it going with skinrocks? What has been a surprise for you?

[Caroline Hirons]

No surprises, because I think we were pretty well informed before we came into it. Yeah, no surprises. I mean, the biggest challenge, as with any startup, is cash flow in people. That's. Anyone will tell you that's the biggest challenge. The NPD isn't a problem. The product isn't a problem. And I wouldn't even say that the other things are problems. It's just that they're the biggest challenges. What you spend a lot of of time doing, managing and looking at cash flow.

[Jess]

How did you find really good people? That's the other thing I hear about a lot.

[Caroline Hirons]

You have to take your ego out of it, I would say. I think it's easier in the UK than in the usa, because in the usa, my feedback that I've had and the feedback I've experienced when I've worked for American brands is that you have a certain culture where people want the title and the pay, but they don't want to take responsibility, they don't want to be held accountable. That's been some experience I've had. I'm not doing a general, sweeping generalization. So it's. I think, I don't know. I mean, we're really good at hiring people because we hire people that are better than us. We don't bring ego into it. Al is my MD and I'm CEO and we've. We've done it together and we're really good sounding boards for each other. And I don't do a lot of the interviewing processes now unless they're going to sit in senior leadership or report to me. So obviously I have a look at things and they'll say, oh, we found someone for so and so and here's their resume. But I don't have to actually sit and do interviews like I did years ago. I get to see people when they've been through all the interviews. It's excellent.

[Jess]

That's great.

[Caroline Hirons]

So by the time they make it to me, they're pretty much halfway through the door.

[Jess]

You talked about cash flow. I mean, we see so many brands, like right now, the headlines are like, this brand's going bankrupt. This brand is folding. This brand. Ba ba ba ba ba. How did you get a handle on coming to the business in a healthy spot?

[Caroline Hirons]

Well, I fed the business. I fed the business through the kits. So CH kits, CH is my business over here. And SkinRocks was always separate and I fed skin rocks through the money I made from the kits.

[Jess]

So can you just say what the kits are for people who are listening that might not know what the kits are?

[Caroline Hirons]

So, I mean, long story short, I was in the industry then. I started the blog in 2010 and in that period since then, brands like Cult Beauty and Space, nk, sort of two of our biggest retailers here had asked me to do kits with them, like my Caroline's Picks, that kind of thing.

[Jess]

Like. Yeah, like an editor's.

[Caroline Hirons]

Like an editor, yeah, you know, in a nice bag or in some cases just with Cult. Just in a box, wasn't even with a bag. And then when Cult gave me the first breakdown of my commission, they basically gave me the template for how they put the kit together and I was like, ah, thanks very much, I can do that. So I contacted the brands I wanted in the first kit and said, I'm going to do kits. I'd love for you to be in it. Would you mind giving me the product up front and I'll pay you for it a week after the kit launches because I don't have any money to start it up with. And they all said yes.

[Jess]

Wow. Wow.

[Caroline Hirons]

And that just set us on. It was like a rocket ship.

[Jess]

Did you have any challenges with the brands you were working with once you decided to break free into your own kits?

[Caroline Hirons]

No, because I had broken free from consulting before I did the kits. I went freestanding, if you like, as the blogger and sort of. I'd do paid social work and stuff to survive. It was a very good living. But the kits were a different beast and I knew they would be. So where I would make 10%, say, commission on this, I could do the full margin and use that to sort of siphon money into skin rocks. So I was able to do it that way. So we were entirely self funded until we took investment last year.

[Jess]

Wow. Okay.

[Caroline Hirons]

Yeah, so it was a big undertaking, but I'm glad I did it. I could have just done kits and retired. To be honest, the kits were a really good money maker. I have to start a brand. I want to be part of the industry. There just comes a point where you're like, I've made so many brands, so much money over the years. My recommendations, as you guys would, said very nicely on one of my first episodes, I think can make or break a product. And I've made brands lots of money. And I was just like, well, hang on a minute. What about your own kids?

[Jess]

Yeah, I mean, how do you feel? I think a lot of people feel that way. I think a lot of editors and social media influencers, you see that, you see them coming out with their own brands because they're like, what about me? I mean, at some point there is. I'm taking you out of the equation because you are. I'm not kissing your ass, but you are above.

[Caroline Hirons]

I'm a qualified expert. And I never called myself an influencer. That was the difference. I never let myself be called an influencer.

[Jess]

No, we talked about that.

[Caroline Hirons]

I see that bubble bursting.

[Jess]

Well, that's what I'm getting at. There isn't room for everyone, but I think a lot of people are like, wait a second, I'm. I'm shouting out this brand, I'm shouting at this brand. I'm making money for all of these different brands. But what do all of these people kind of get in return besides maybe like a couple of pennies on the dollar? What is your recommendation to all of these folks?

[Caroline Hirons]

I think if your personal brand is strong enough to launch A brand, then do it. But if it isn't, then don't. And ultimately the product has to come first. The product always came first with us. So you could have it's Skin Rocks by Caroline Hirons and you can cut off the Carolina Hirons and the brand would stand on its own. So that's number one product has to be first. When Brad Pitt released his product and he said, well, actually I don't even use a shower gel, I was like, oh, you've just canned your own brand before you've even left the starting gate. So if you've got a strong personal brand like Hailey Bieber, people bought into wanting to be aligned with Hailey Bieber. They didn't care what the product was. It just turns out that the product's okay. Whichever person in her marketing team, or if it was her, take my hat to it, develop that phone case needs a bonus and shares because that was the tipping point for that brand. The phone case.

[Jess]

Well, it was like guerrilla marketing. It was like outside advertising. Yeah.

[Caroline Hirons]

Literally, it was like Taylor Swift and friendship bracelets. People want to be part of that gang. And I'm lucky in that I have a very small comparable bit of essence of that, that kind of was able to kickstart our brand. I already had a following. I had people who'd been buying the kits. Thousands, tens of thousands of people who'd been buying the kits. And so we were able to launch with an audience rather than having to build one. Now, of course, we're on the same playing field as everyone else and we have to keep competing with our peers. And so now we're sort of a grown up, proper brand and we have to compete in the same way because I don't have the same attraction as Hailey Bieber or Selena Gomez. Shockingly, Shockingly. It's shocking.

[Jess]

That's debatable to me. Now, talking about, like the crowded space, though, and your peers, when you came out, you were really cutting through a lot of the social noise because you are, like I said, you're a cut above. You're a couple years older than Hailey Bieber.

[Caroline Hirons]

Oh, I could be her mother. I mean, easily her mother. And then.

[Jess]

So you had to have her very young.

[Caroline Hirons]

No, no, no, she's. What? What is she, late 20s maybe?

[Jess]

Yeah, late 20s.

[Caroline Hirons]

I've got two kids older than that.

[Jess]

Okay, all right. But you're outspoken. I don't want to say you're loud, but you're like direct. Right? You're direct. You speak to the camera. You're like, this is shit. This is. Do you curse a lot?

[Caroline Hirons]

Yes, yes. But not for effect. It's just I'm from London. We all do.

[Jess]

Right. It's like when it counts for impact.

[Caroline Hirons]

Right, to make the point.

[Jess]

But yeah, you make a point and you're direct. And now. So let's say that was late 2010s is when I caught onto you. Now I feel like I'm scrolling, I'm scrolling. And people have taken a page from your playbook. Okay. There's a lot of that. Have you noticed that or. No?

[Caroline Hirons]

Yeah, I do see a lot of things and even now I see brands doing what we're doing as a brand or doing what we're doing in terms of chats with C and tea with C and all that sort of stuff. And I think that's fine.

[Jess]

Yeah. What's your reaction to that?

[Caroline Hirons]

The highest form of compliment. I don't care. I'm just busy doing my own thing. I mean, I've never, you know me, Jess, I've never looked at trends. So when people say, you know, what trend should we look out for? I'm like, don't ask me. I'm not looking at trends, I'm looking at science. Always. I'm not interested in giving you glass skin unless it's the side effect of a product that actually is going to do something for your skin underneath. You can get that anywhere. It's not what I do.

[Jess]

Are people still asking you for transfer?

[Caroline Hirons]

Oh, all the time. All the time.

[Jess]

They must not watch your content then. Okay, so are there any. Well, are there any. I won't ask you for trends, but are there any moments in skincare where you're just rolling your eyes or like social moments that you are like, I cannot believe we're still talking about this.

[Caroline Hirons]

Clean.

[Jess]

Okay, okay. When we had you, okay, when we had you on the show, there was this amazing moment where we were talking about how, like, everything is a toxin. Everything, everything is dose dependent.

[Caroline Hirons]

Right.

[Jess]

And at that point it was. Every brand was leading with clean, every brand was leading with non toxic. And it had reached this fever pitch. Now it's gone curiously quiet. The clean conversation.

[Caroline Hirons]

Oh, I wonder why. Good. Not quiet enough. I'll tell you what else is meaningless that comes from the States and pisses me off. Are we ready?

[Jess]

Where do you want to start?

[Caroline Hirons]

Medical grade.

[Jess]

Okay, okay. Medical grade. Science backed.

[Caroline Hirons]

Fuck off. Dermatologist tested. Why do you want a dermatologist to test it? Get a scientist to test it in a lab and pay them a lot of money to test it on 60 to 100 of your customers.

[Jess]

Wait, not the eight girls that work in the office.

[Caroline Hirons]

Fucking Jesus Christ. I can't. Honestly, I was doing quite well. I was quite calm and you've got me wound up. Which I think is what you wanted.

[Jess]

She's touching.

[Caroline Hirons]

Little clickbait queen. I'm just going to calm down. I love the industry. What pisses me off is marketing departments within my industry.

[Jess]

Okay, keep going. Bring a ch.

[Caroline Hirons]

Come on. Brands whose whole entire modeling, you know, marketing model is break up with your facialist. Piss off. You would not say that to hair. Do you know why they wouldn't say it to the hair? They would not say, don't go to your hairdresser, just use your home color. You don't need a hairdresser because hairdressing is run by gay men and they will come for you.

[Jess]

That's terrible.

[Caroline Hirons]

Facials and beauty therapy is run by women and women are an easy target.

[Jess]

Wait, I have to tell you something. The other day I was having conversation with a friend of mine. So she works with a lot of facialists. I'm like, I don't want to make it too narrow.

[Caroline Hirons]

People can know she of course, but

[Jess]

she works with a lot of facialists and she is struggling, Caroline, struggling because a lot of her facialists, her clients, they're suffering because the, the media and like the kind of culture at large is like being like, you don't need a beautiful European facial, you don't need a low tech facial. I was like a high touch, low tech facial. That is my, that is my bread and butter. That's my jam. I love nothing more because it's relaxing. I do see a difference. I grew up aspiring to that. But the, the way the beauty conversation is moving in 2026 is like, don't spend your $200 on that. Take your $200 and put it towards

[Caroline Hirons]

something that is like a cream or a tool you're not going to use and you're going to forget you own it.

[Jess]

Right, so. And it's, it's heartbreaking to, to think that this industry is now seen as like horse and buggy, you know, going the way the horse and buggy. So anyway, I think you get where I'm going with this.

[Caroline Hirons]

Well, I did a keynote speak at the Forest Summit on, on Sunday just gone in Dublin. So Forest is an. It sounds really boring, but it was like 650 salon and clinic owners from all around the world, half of them from the US and they provide the IT booking services and all that sort of thing and obviously they can move into AI and they can tell you everything about your customer behavior. And they asked me to do the keynote and I was like, are you sure? I'm going to swear a lot. And it's only 9:30 in the morning. And then I remembered where I was and I was in Dublin, where if you don't swear, you're unusual.

[Jess]

So I was fine, so you're sad.

[Caroline Hirons]

But I just said, we have to stop letting the tail wag the dog. Why in 2026am I a 56 year old grandmother, still considered outspoken? Where are you all? Don't hide behind me. Like stand with me, but don't hide behind me. You all feel the same way I do. We all have the same conversations offline. Why when it comes to online, is it me left going, don't do that, don't break up with your facialist. The beauty industry is the number two employer of women after the nhs, after the health service. We employ more women than any other industry. And a lot of these women do the job that they do, like beauty therapy, whether it's at home or mobile therap, as in facialists, estheticians, because they can work around their families and a lot of them have got kids. And you are telling people that they do not need facials. Don't do that.

[Jess]

Yeah, it's flexible work for women. It's such a big part of the economy, we have to be mindful about how we message. I can't imagine saying that about anyone's line of work, but they have no

[Caroline Hirons]

problem doing it because it's mainly women. I mean, over here, during lockdown. The reason I got such a big following during lockdown is I was going live at five every night and Boris Johnson was our stupid Prime Minister. Fucking asshole. Who was laughing at us in Parliament. Laughing at the beauty industry in Parliament. I lost my shit because I had friends messaging me going, I don't know what I'm gonna do, I'm borrowing money off my sister to pay my mortgage and you're laughing at us. How dare you. And in the uk they opened bookies, cabs and the pubs. Bookies, cabs and the pubs. So the men could place a bet, go to the pub and get home. But women couldn't have any beauty treatments. I was raging and that's what kickstarted me being kind of at the forefront. And then British Beauty Council got in touch and I became an ambassador for the aesthetics arm of them. I'm on various boards because as much as people will say, oh, she's outspoken and she's this and that. I take it as a compliment no matter how clumsily it lands, because I know for a fact if you're stuck, I am the kind of friend that you want on your side and so I sleep easy at night.

[Podcast Advertiser]

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[Jess]

While every other channel is fighting for your customers attention, podcasts are where they've already given it. No one accidentally listens to a podcast for 45 minutes. They choose to be here. They trust the voice in their ears. And when that voice talks about your brand, it doesn't sound like advertising. It sounds like a recommendation from a friend. ACAST gives you that trust at scale, digital precision, host read authenticity and performance data that proves it worked. Don't fight for attention. Buy it with Acast. Learn more by visiting acast.com SL advertise. Were you I I really admire and I think a lot of people feel this way. I've never had a facial with you. I've not tried every Skin Rocks product that'll change what Send it over. What I admire about you and I think why you are number one episode is I think people admire your ability.

[Caroline Hirons]

I'm the number one episode?

[Jess]

Yeah, I thought I led with that when I wrote you. What I admire about you, Caroline, is your ability to say the thing that sits right here and you can't see me. But I often have a lot of thoughts and feelings in my personal life, my professional life that sit right in my tummy or like right, like right beneath my boobs above my belly button. And these thoughts and these feelings, whether it's about politics or a personal issue, whatever, they sit right here. And as I get older they come out more easily. I'm over 40. Surprise surprise. When we met I wasn't and they come out more easily.

[Caroline Hirons]

Wait until you're postmenopausal. I am a post menopausal grandmother who is tired of everyone's bullshit.

[Jess]

Well, this is what I was going to ask you. They're coming out more easily and I don't know if the audience can tell or not. Maybe you probably have your own thoughts. I don't know. Send me a note. But they don't come out quite with the clarity and the that yours do. And I think most people's don't. And that's why a lot of us really adore you. And I'm curious. Well, I'll get there, Caroline. But I'm curious if there was a turning point or if they always were like that. And I think I was kind of hinting at that. When we're talking about the corporate. When you and corporate thing, I want to know when you became you.

[Caroline Hirons]

I've always been me.

[Jess]

Clearly. I don't think that there was like a car crash moment.

[Caroline Hirons]

No. And my mum and grandmother were both incredibly strong women.

[Jess]

Where are you from in England? That might help.

[Caroline Hirons]

I was born in Liverpool.

[Jess]

Okay, well, that helps.

[Caroline Hirons]

To an Irish Catholic family. And my grandfather was a GI from the States, so. Mississippi, Ireland.

[Jess]

Yeah, I know you're part American. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're American and Irish and you're from Liverpool.

[Caroline Hirons]

So you're all fucked.

[Jess]

You had an advantage.

[Caroline Hirons]

This is genetic advantage. It's genetic. So I have really funny old stories of, like, my aunties, my nanas, sisters and stuff, and the things they would come out with and everyone would be outraged, but they all loved her for it. But I think the turning point for me was when I first, Because I wasn't like this when I was in corporate. I used to bite my tongue and go home and be like, God, I want to kill. I can't bear it.

[Jess]

And did you, like, did you, like, vent to your husband or like. Yeah.

[Caroline Hirons]

And to be fair, he would be the one who'd go, leave. Tell him to fuck off. Leave. Well, we. We've been. We've had nothing before. We can go back to, like, we'll go and work in a supermarket. Who cares? Don't put up with it. And that was always great. And so it's a miracle I have a career, is what I say. Because in 2010, I was just. I started the blog and I was just starting perimenopause, but I didn't know what it was. We didn't talk about it.

[Jess]

So how old are you then?

[Caroline Hirons]

Just like ballpark?

[Jess]

42.

[Caroline Hirons]

42 that year. So 41. And I was just starting perimenopause, so I went through perimenopause and menopause online in front of the world. And there are some lovely pictures of me to show how horrendous it was. I had brain fog. I was eating two food groups, red wine and carbs. I piled on weight. I was miserable. I had no energy. Like, I was a cliche. And it was only as I neared 50 that some friends said, maybe you need hormones. Why don't you go and see my hormone doctor? And I went private. I tried the nhs, they basically gave me just estrogen, which made me feel like I was pregnant.

[Jess]

I took to bed oral or like

[Caroline Hirons]

topical tablets and I took them for two days and I had pregnancy systems. My boobs were sore and bloated and I took to bed. I was like, I can't do this. So I went private. And they do the blood test. When you go private here, you get a blood test. And I had so much estrogen, they couldn't believe it. Now, that's another reason why my skin stayed pretty good. My estrogen didn't drop until it jettisoned out the window like a rocket. But when I first went on to hrt, I actually needed progesterone and testosterone, not estrogen.

[Jess]

Got it.

[Caroline Hirons]

But I didn't know that because when I first went, I went to the nhs. It was only when I went private that she sorted me out. And within 24, 48 hours, I said something to my husband. I got out of bed and he went, oh, my God, there she is. And it kind of made me cry because I really felt like I was back.

[Jess]

I understand you're going to make me cry.

[Caroline Hirons]

Oh, honestly, I went through perimenopause and menopause and I've got to tell you, Jess, post menopause is the best fucking time of my life. When people tell you, look what we

[Jess]

have to look forward to, everyone.

[Caroline Hirons]

I remember years ago watching Oprah.

[Jess]

Yeah, I know. You love her, don't you?

[Caroline Hirons]

Oh, I was watching Oprah and she was interviewing Camille Cosby. God help that woman. But anyway, that's who she was interviewing and Oprah had just turned 50 and she said, I've got to say, I feel so much better and stronger. And I vividly remember Maya Angelou and Camille Cosby both said to her, honey, wait till you're 60, you've set the world on fire. And I'm 56 and I feel like I've never been stronger, known who I am more, stood in my truth more, stand up to bullshit more. But I also. It also comes with a great deal of empathy. And so I don't. I think the reason I still had a career is because I'm not mean for the sake of it. I've never slagged off a brand for clickbait. I've never done clickbait titles. It's always, I don't. I've never done the Truth about blah, blah, blah. When I've had a Major problem with a brand. And there's been a few the last few years, I just call the owner because I usually know them. I go, dude, what the fuck is this? And they go, oh. I go, please change it so I don't have to say anything publicly because all I'm doing is being inundated about your product. And then they go, thank you so much for the heads up. So I built relationships along the way that I care about my whole entire friendship group, with the exception of maybe two people. My girls I've known since I was 10, is beauty people. It's my whole world. And that's why I get so passionate about it. And that's why I get so pissed off when people come in who I call hobbyists. First thing is, if someone says, oh, I made money in the city and I've always wanted a brand, I think I fucking hate you.

[Jess]

Oh, God. Keep walking.

[Caroline Hirons]

Yeah, please go do a cookie factory or something.

[Jess]

All right, let's take a little break and we're gonna wrap up with the fat mascara 5.

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[Jess]

Here's a tip for you. There's a podcast out there with fans waiting to be your next customer. They tune in every week. They trust the host, and that host wants to talk about brands like yours in their own words to their audience. The problem is you just haven't been introduced yet. We're acast where that introduction happens. As the world's largest podcast marketplace, we let you browse shows, see who's listening, listening and book host red sponsorships, or

[Caroline Hirons]

run your own ads, all from one platform.

[Jess]

Transparent pricing, real time data, complete control. Start advertising on podcasts by visiting acast.com advertise. Okay, Caroline. Quick Fat Mascara five Lightning round. I always say lightning round, but then sometimes we end up talking. Okay, that's okay.

[Caroline Hirons]

I'll talk. I'm here for hours. It's fine.

[Jess]

Okay. Adore you. First beauty product you ever fell in love with.

[Caroline Hirons]

Probably Longcome cleanser, because my mother and grandmother both used it. And the first product I bought was a bourgeois blusher with my pocket money. And I turned up at home and my mum said, you can wear makeup, but only when you've learned how to wash your face properly. And she gave me her Lancome cleanser.

[Jess]

I like her thinking.

[Caroline Hirons]

And it smelled of my mum and still smell makes brings me to tears because mum passed away a couple of years ago since we recorded the pod actually. So I, I still like Chanel no. 5. You know when you walk past a beauty counter and I was like, please don't spray me ptsd unless you want me to cry all over your counter. Please don't spray Chanel number five near me. Thank you. I'll take some cocoa. So Lancome Galate, I think it was. I think it's Galate cleanser.

[Jess]

Was it like a creamy.

[Caroline Hirons]

I imagine creamy white. They still make it Creamy white cleanser. It does take all you make, but it's a fantastic product.

[Jess]

Well, I love the smell of everything.

[Caroline Hirons]

Lancome Lancome, like proper old fashioned but obviously now they have the science. But proper old fashioned beauty scented products. Lancome Clarins, Chanel, La Mer, Guerlain maybe

[Jess]

it's like it's a different everyone, different strokes, different folks. But people are like, oh, it's too scented. I'm like, that's what I want. I want, I want that kind of experience.

[Caroline Hirons]

We make both for skin rocks. We do with the cleansers and the moisturizers. Treatment. All the treatment products are on fragrance. But the cleansers and the moisturizers we offer both. Which is not a clever financial decision to make, let me say.

[Jess]

I was about to say that's a

[Caroline Hirons]

lot of resource, but I know that sometimes I want a luxurious cleanse and sometimes when I'm trialing really strong peels, for example, for pro. I can't take fragrance.

[Jess]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caroline Hirons]

So I knew we'd. And we'd sell enough of both to keep them all going.

[Jess]

That's interesting and very. It's a cool detail. Okay, I know you are a big Duran Duran fan. Favorite Duran Duran song.

[Caroline Hirons]

Okay, so off the first album, it's Friends of Mine. I'm a proper Durani. So you're gonna get old school. It's nothing to do with ordinary world or come undone no, that's all new. Duran Duran Friends of mine from the first album.

[Jess]

It's new. It's only 30.

[Caroline Hirons]

It's 35 years old. Way too new. Friends of Mine from the first album. New Religion from the second album. And my kids know that New Religion is my funeral song. And all of my followers know what my favorite Dran Duran songs are. So when I'm testing them, the first one who says New Religion, they get the prize.

[Jess]

Have you gone into Any good gigs lately?

[Caroline Hirons]

Oh, yeah, I'm always. That's the only thing I still do. I go to the gigs. I go to the theater. So I went to Glastonbury last year. It's not for me, Jess. I went. I went.

[Jess]

Where'd you go? To the party?

[Caroline Hirons]

Well, I used the toilets. I had a VIP band thing that I. For the connection. I managed to pay for it, and they cost a fortune. No one in the VIP goes for free, which is the good thing about Glastonbury. They make a fortune for charity. So that's good. That's good. But walking around fields with a load of people drunk and stoned is not for me. So I went to see the 1975 because it's my family, sort of my son's favorite band. My favorite band by default, because I had no choice. And I'm also friends with Mattie Healy's mum, Denise, who's a good friend of mine. And so she was with them and backstage and everything. And I was at the front of the pit. There's a picture of me and my son sitting there. I've never looked happier. But I had just gotten over Covid.

[Jess]

Oh, God, this is horrendous.

[Caroline Hirons]

So I had the 1975 on Friday, and then on the Saturday, I went back for Brandi Carlisle, and we had Alanis on a set, and then I just collapsed and had. I was like, guys, I'm going home. You're on your own. I was. I'm just so tired. I can't move. I was just lying in the shade. It was just really boiling hot weather, and I was just getting over Covid. But I will go to a gig.

[Jess]

Okay. But maybe not in the hot sun. No.

[Caroline Hirons]

I saw Duran Duran's Halloween show in Manchester. That was great. Brandi Carlisle. Oh, God. Who am I going to see? Coming up, I'm going to see J. Buchanan from. Oh, my God. What are they called? What's the band called? Okay, I've got a brain fart, but I'm going to see J. Buchanan playing, like, a record shop in London. I always try and get into a smaller gig, except for Glastonbury, apparently less chaotic than Glastonbury. Okay. But it's not for me. My kids love it. And there's a reason. I was like, there's a reason grandmothers don't do this. Denise, I'll watch you from the comfort of my home where I can boil the kettle and go to the toilet that I've cleaned.

[Jess]

What is the last note on your

[Caroline Hirons]

iPhone this is going to make you die. You can't believe Only I'll show you that it's the right one. I did a shoot. I can't say where or when. And the worst words someone can say to me, and this is no disrespect because there are brilliant ones out there. It's just been my misfortune that up until I lost a of weight in the last few years, clothes didn't fit me, especially designer clothes. And so the word stylist would put fear of God into me because they'd go, we have a stylist. And I go, I'll just kind of just bring my own clothes. First of all, don't bother with shoes. I've got a size 10 foot or a size 11 in the US, right?

[Jess]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline Hirons]

So don't bring shoes. I'll bring my own shoes. Can I bring my own jeans? Because I like framed jeans and they make me look like I've got some kind of a butt, which I don't. And I'll just bring my own sweaters. I know what I like. I'm 56. So I went to this shoot where there was a stylist. I feel so bad. I'm not going to say anyone's names, okay? And I was trying to to say to the makeup artist, have you seen the fucking clothes in the cupboard? Thank God I bought my own clothes. And the last note is the clothes. Fuck me. That is literally the last note. Look, chats with C that I've just filmed in Dublin. The clothes. Fuck me. Fuck me.

[Jess]

All caps. The clothes is initial caps. The fuck me.

[Caroline Hirons]

Fuck me.

[Jess]

All caps.

[Caroline Hirons]

Somebody.

[Jess]

Oh my God.

[Caroline Hirons]

It was what people think. Here's my problem again with ageism. It's what people think a 56 year old grandmother should wear.

[Jess]

Was it like a blousy top and

[Caroline Hirons]

like a slim pant, elasticated waist, polyester trousers? What the fuck? Tell me you don't follow me. I wear frayne jeans, bitch. They're $300 a pop. What are you talking about? Like nice tops and jewelry and a Cezanne cardigan. Like, you know, babe, I think we

[Jess]

found our Pol Quote. I wear framed jeans for $300 a

[Caroline Hirons]

box and I don't get discount. I'm not a clothes influencer. When everyone's like, oh, shouldn't you put ad? I'm like, do you think people send me clothes for free? No one wants a 56 year old grandmother advertising their clothes. I can barely get a discount. I'm like, look, I can make it. I Can dress up quite well, but. Yes, you look good. The clothes. What's this little, like, top?

[Jess]

You have this little, like.

[Caroline Hirons]

It's a Cezanne cardigan. I don't really do cardis, but this one's, like, really baggy sleeves and warm. And my office is freezing.

[Jess]

No, I like it.

[Caroline Hirons]

Yeah, it's not a granny cardigan. And it's got pockets. Look. Pockets. Very helpful.

[Jess]

I like it. Are those gold or, like, faux tortoise shell? What is that?

[Caroline Hirons]

Faux tortoise shell. Thank you for noticing.

[Jess]

I like it. No, I think it's really chic. Yeah.

[Caroline Hirons]

Thanks. And I'm wearing, like, a nice trouser look.

[Jess]

Let me see. Ooh, cute.

[Caroline Hirons]

Nice trousers.

[Jess]

Great.

[Caroline Hirons]

No elasticated waist in sight. Bitch. So that was my last note. I'm so glad I didn't delete it.

[Jess]

And then. No, that was my. Actually my favorite one I've ever got. Okay. And then last thing. It's 12 noon on a Saturday. What Caroline are you doing? We're crashing into your schedule. What are you really doing?

[Caroline Hirons]

Probably in my kitchen, pottering. Pottering? Cooking. Ironing. I spent four hours ironing after Christmas, and I watched four episodes of the Taylor Swift documentary on the trot. Just because the kids will come and save Christmas and then they'll leave and just leave their mess like they're teenagers again. I'll probably be listening to the Huey Morgan show on Virgin Radio. Cause he plays good club hip hop music. Like stuff you can get around to on a Saturday.

[Jess]

Do you like ironing?

[Caroline Hirons]

No.

[Jess]

Don't you have. I feel like you must have someone who can iron for you.

[Caroline Hirons]

No, I don't like. I'd rather do it than have crinkly sheets. I have to have my pieces.

[Jess]

Ironing your sheets.

[Caroline Hirons]

Of course. You don't iron sheets.

[Jess]

I do not iron sheets.

[Caroline Hirons]

No, I iron everything. Oh, my God. So I ironed all the table mats from the Christmas table. It was a lot of ironing. I'll send you the video. I took a video to send to the kids and said, on the first day of Christmas, my kids left for me 15 sheets, four pillowcases. Like, it was a lot.

[Jess]

Please send me the video. I just think you're a very busy person. You're running a whole company. The idea.

[Caroline Hirons]

Two whole companies.

[Jess]

Two whole companies and creating content. The idea that you. I don't have time to iron. But yet.

[Caroline Hirons]

But it's kind of a way to relax and switch off. I've got a big TV in the kitchen. I put the TV on. I'll Iron. I'll potter around. I might be in town, just shopping around, getting a few bits for dinner, seeing the grandkids.

[Jess]

Pottering too.

[Caroline Hirons]

Yeah, I like just pottering around, seeing the grandkids. Sometimes on a Saturday. It depends.

[Jess]

So, Caroline, I adore you. I adore you. Your pottering, your cute style and your way. Just your way.

[Caroline Hirons]

Thank you for having me back. I'm very honored.

[Jess]

Thank you for coming back. You're welcome. Anytime. Hope to see you in person soon.

[Caroline Hirons]

Well, I'm going to bombard you now. I need your address to send you all of my product and I'm going to send you videos of me ironing.

[Jess]

Awesome. Thanks, Caroline.

[Caroline Hirons]

Bye, darling.

[Jess]

Bye. All right, let's do a Raza wand. If you're new here, raise. A wand is when we shout out a product. We are just obsessed with that. We're telling our friends about that. We are going to replenish. Refill. Mine this week is Tammy Fender's Cleansing Milk. So Tammy Fender is an esthetician. She's based in Palm Beach. She's been around for a long time. I've always known of her as talking about naturals and botanicals and the power of plants and also the romance and the aromatherapy that goes with that, but also the effectiveness. She's talking about that for decades. And her line is, I think, criminally not underrated because people love it, but it should be shouted about a lot more. My favorite product is the cleansing milk. It's really creamy. It's like a mix between I don't like cleansing milks that are runny. I just don't like them. And I know they're very popular. But I also, sometimes you don't want a thick cream cleanser. You don't want the kind that you open the lid. You need a little muslin cloth. Love it. But that's also sometimes not for every day, especially if you're in a rush. This cleanser is just creamy delicious. It reminds me of this Almay one that I used to use when I was younger, which, surprise, surprise, is discontinued. The scent is great. It's about $60 pricey, but this feels every bit luxury. Send me your razor wands. Infooattmascara.com could be a voicemail. Could be just a little ditty that you write up and I'll read them on the on the show. All right, guys, see you next week. She is a force. I can understand why she is our top rated guest, our most listened to, because you always get information you can use, but you also get some perspective that you're not going to find anywhere else. And she spawned a lot of imitators, but there's only one Caroline Hirons. Let me know what you thought. Tell me, tell me. DM me. Email me infoatmascara. We'll discuss. Thank you for listening to Fat Mascara. If you like the show, consider giving us a rating and review on itunes, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. This helps other people find the show. Follow us on social at Mascot Mascara and email me at infoatmascara. I would love to hear from you and to shop the products heard on the episode, check out Fat Mascara on shopmyshell. This show is produced by Red Rock Music. I'll see you next time.

[Podcast Advertiser]

Out on the road. It's nice to have a partner who can help you make the most of your journey. A partner like the Loves Rewards Apple with Love's Rewards along for the ride. You earn points on food, fuel, drinks and more every time you scan. Then you can spend those points at Love's just like Cash. So every stop is even more rewarding. Download the app today and watch the points roll in mile after mile. Love's Rewards Save and earn at every turn. Terms apply. See website for details. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts.

[Caroline Hirons]

Here's a show that we recommend.

[Jess]

Do you want to know the best part about being married to a woman? That there's no man involved. I mean, true, but I was going to say that it's a sleepover every single night with your best friend. Oh yeah, that part's cute too. I'm Taryn, she's Cami. We're married and staying up is our weekly pillow talk out loud with you. We're giggling, we're gossiping, we're arguing. Classic marriage stuff. Just having fun being wives while we navigate growing up and building a family together. Then our sleepover grows. Our listeners call the PP hotline with their own gossip, burning questions, late night spirals, all the stuff they'd only tell their best friends. So it's a private sleepover, but you are invited. Staying up with Taryn and Cami. New episodes weekly follow wherever you listen.

[Podcast Advertiser]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.