Ep. 567: Listeners on Sephora Tweens, Animal Testing & The Week’s Beauty News

Summary

Fat Mascara Episode Summary: Ep. 567 – Listeners on Sephora Tweens, Animal Testing & The Week’s Beauty News

Release Date: February 26, 2025

In Episode 567 of Fat Mascara, hosts Jennifer Sullivan and Jessica Matlin delve into pressing beauty industry topics, including the impact of Sephora's tween birthday parties, legislative efforts to regulate anti-aging skincare products for minors, and the controversial FDA mandate on animal testing for sunscreens. The episode is enriched with listener insights, expert opinions, and candid discussions that provide a comprehensive view of current beauty culture trends and challenges.

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1. Personal Experiences with Fraxel Treatments

The episode opens with a heartfelt discussion about Fraxel, a popular laser treatment aimed at improving skin clarity and reducing discoloration.

• Kara Berry (Guest): Shares her positive experience with Fraxel, emphasizing its effectiveness in enhancing skin texture and collagen production.

  • "I had a Fraxel last night... It's a very powerful laser." [02:55]
  • "Once your collagen kicks in, you're just like, I almost forgot I was wearing makeup." [04:46]

• Jess: Reflects on the longevity and cost-effectiveness of Fraxel compared to other laser treatments.

  • "I got mine before my wedding and I haven't gotten it since... it's usually starting at $2000." [05:24]

• Kara: Highlights the importance of receiving Fraxel from trained professionals to ensure safety and effectiveness.

  • "It's in the hands of an untrained person or somebody who's really loosey-goosey." [04:11]

The hosts underscore the significance of informed decisions when opting for advanced skincare treatments, balancing efficacy with potential risks.

2. Listener Insights on Sephora Tween Birthday Parties

A substantial portion of the episode is dedicated to listener feedback regarding Sephora's trend of hosting birthday parties for tweens, a subject that has sparked varied reactions.

• Monica (Listener from Florida): Reminisces about attending Sephora birthday parties in her youth, describing them as fun and memorable experiences.

  • "It was a really fun memory that the recent conversation shocked me for." [24:44]

• Orianna (Listener from California): Contrasts past and present perceptions of makeup use among younger generations, expressing concerns over the sexualization and consumerism associated with modern Sephora parties.

  • "This isn't good. That isn't good. That is children sexualizing themselves and people sexualizing children." [24:45] [27:38]

• Flo (Listener from Portland): Offers an alternative approach by suggesting home-based facial parties focusing on self-care and human connection rather than consumerism.

  • "Do like, little facial birthday party at home... making it about human touch, self-care, human connection." [28:54]

The hosts engage in a nuanced conversation about the evolution of beauty interactions among tweens, touching upon themes of consumerism, wealth inequality, and the democratizing nature of beauty products. They reflect on how beauty once served as a form of self-expression and experimentation, contrasting it with the current luxury-oriented approach influenced by social media and influencer culture.

3. Legislative Efforts to Ban Anti-Aging Skincare for Children in California

A significant discussion centers around a proposed bill in California aimed at restricting the sale of anti-aging skincare products to children, specifically targeting ingredients like vitamin A derivatives and alpha hydroxy acids.

• Jen Sullivan: Introduces the bill, highlighting Representative Alex Lee's concerns about the beauty industry's marketing strategies towards minors.

  • "She wants to stop that." [15:32]
  • "The beauty industry is cashing in on the Sephora kids phenomenon." [15:44]

• Kara Berry: Expresses skepticism about the necessity and effectiveness of such legislation, questioning whether it addresses the root causes.

  • "This feels like a band-aid just showing her constituents I care about the issue." [16:03]
  • "There's so much nuance." [19:07]

• Jess: Agrees that while the intention behind the bill is commendable, legislation might not be the most effective solution. She advocates for industry-led guidelines and parental responsibility.

  • "For me, this isn't the place to have a conversation and come up with guidelines that work." [16:03]
  • "Parents are so busy." [18:19]

• Flo (Listener from Portland): Highlights additional concerns related to consumerism and wealth inequity, suggesting that such beauty events can exacerbate social disparities among young girls.

  • "I've noticed when kids start comparing themselves to their peers and really noticing what their family can afford versus other families." [28:54]

The dialogue underscores the complexity of regulating beauty products for minors, balancing protection with the recognition of legitimate skincare needs, such as treating acne.

4. FDA's Mandate on Animal Testing for Sunscreens

A contentious segment of the episode addresses the FDA's recent announcement requiring animal testing for sunscreen products, a move that has sparked significant backlash from industry experts and animal rights advocates.

• Jen Sullivan: Details the FDA's position, citing a statement focused on the necessity of animal studies for ensuring product safety.

  • "The FDA routinely evaluates drugs that are absorbed into the body... Replacement of all animal studies with non-animal methods is not currently feasible." [42:40]

• Jess: Criticizes the FDA's stance, arguing that non-animal testing methods are both sufficient and more ethical. She references conversations with experts who support alternative testing techniques.

  • "The FDA knows that it's messy, knows that they need lots of testing, but they are insisting on these animal tests." [44:03]
  • "They are incorrect to say that you cannot tell the safety of a product without animal testing." [43:48]

• Kara Berry: Echoes the frustration, emphasizing that animal testing methods are outdated and unreliable. She advocates for the prioritization of non-animal testing approaches.

  • "If the FDA determines that additional information is needed... the agency should prioritize non-animal testing methods." [48:18]

• Jeff Brown (Senior Scientist at PETA): Although not directly quoted, his perspectives inform the hosts' arguments against the FDA's mandate.

  • "The weight of evidence approach does not need to have animal testing." [49:07]

The discussion highlights a significant rift between regulatory practices and modern ethical standards in product testing. The hosts and their consulted experts argue for the adoption of more humane and scientifically advanced methods, criticizing the FDA for stagnating and the prolonged timeline associated with animal testing.

5. Product Recommendations and Community Engagement

Towards the end of the episode, Sullivan and Matlin pivot to lighter topics, sharing favorite products and engaging with listener recommendations.

• Dark Chocolate Brown Eyeliner: The hosts discuss their preference for dark brown eyeliners that offer a softer contrast compared to traditional black options.

  • "I want that black mixed with brown... Nyx expanded their waterproof liquid eyeliner line to have both two shades, Milk chocolate and dark chocolate." [52:47]

• Stella Fragrance: Listener Flo from London shares her nostalgia for the Stella fragrance, prompting the hosts to acknowledge its enduring legacy and the emotional connections consumers have with scents.

  • "Stella fragrance was so powerful." [59:10]

• Lip Products: They exchange notes on favorite lip balms and glosses, highlighting products like Winky Lux Pink Lemonade Lip Balm and L'Oreal Paris True Match concealer.

  • "Pink Lemonade Lip Balm... Neen lip gloss created by Janine Lobel." [62:17] [65:43]

The hosts conclude by encouraging listeners to participate in ongoing conversations and share their beauty experiences, fostering a sense of community and shared passion within the podcast's audience.

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Notable Quotes:

• Kara Berry: "Some people feel like Fraxel is like the holy grail." [03:00]
• Jess: "Kim Phan era when it was like, I'll teach you how to do this. But not everything." [36:26]
• Orianna (Listener): "Tweens going into Sephora and playing with all the samples has been around since at least 2006." [27:38]
• Flo (Listener): "What if instead of these Sephora birthday parties, you did like a little facial birthday party at home?" [28:54]
• Jess: "The FDA knows that it's messy, knows that they need lots of testing, but they are insisting on these animal tests." [44:03]
• Kara Berry: "Animal studies are inherently limited in their ability to accurately reflect human responses to sunscreen exposure." [48:48]
• Jess: "Call your legislators... make noise, they're gonna pull back on this." [50:10]

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Conclusions and Takeaways

Fat Mascara Episode 567 offers an insightful exploration of current issues within the beauty industry, particularly focusing on the ethical and societal implications of beauty practices aimed at younger demographics and the environmental concerns related to product testing. The hosts advocate for a balanced approach that prioritizes consumer education, ethical testing methods, and mindful consumption. By incorporating listener experiences and expert opinions, the episode underscores the evolving landscape of beauty culture, urging both industry practitioners and consumers to engage thoughtfully with the products and practices that shape their daily lives.

Listeners are left with a call to action to participate in legislative dialogues, support ethical beauty brands, and foster inclusive beauty standards that honor both individual expression and collective responsibility.

Transcript

[Jess]

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[Jen]

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[Kara Berry]

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

Hi, I'm Kara Berry, host of Everyone's Business But Mine. Think of me as your new friend and fellow busybody as I talk about everything under the pop culture sun, from the best way to detect a celebrity breakup or pregnancy to recapping your favorite reality TV shows from the housewives cinematic universe. Welcome to Plathville, Kardashians and so much more. So check out Everyone's Business But Mine, airing multiple times a week everywhere you listen to podcasts.

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com hey, hey, hey. Welcome to Fat Mascara. I'm Jess. I'm Jen.

[Jess]

Hi, everyone.

[Kara Berry]

Hi. All right, listen, there's an audio. Most of you are probably listening to this on audio. We're not. We're not doing YouTube right now, are we?

[Jess]

We're on YouTube, but audio only.

[Kara Berry]

Okay.

[Jess]

Like and subscribe.

[Kara Berry]

Yeah, it sounds like a really compelling content right now. Wow. It is.

[Jess]

A lot of people like to listen on YouTube because they can have it going on their computer and just like over in the corner. So we're everywhere.

[Kara Berry]

Sounds great.

[Jess]

We're Omnichannel.

[Kara Berry]

All right. Well, anyway, my face is quite red right now. It's a little, it's like, it's like blushing. It's like rosy. It's like a.

[Jess]

You're having a strawberry girl. Winter is what it looks like to me.

[Kara Berry]

It's more like radish girl. Like, I like it.

[Jess]

A winter vegetable. Keep going.

[Kara Berry]

Yeah. Anyway, I had a fraxel last night.

[Jess]

Is that like Tar Jay of Target?

[Kara Berry]

Yes, I had a fraxel. I'm a big fan of Fraxel.

[Jess]

Some people.

[Kara Berry]

Some people. It's funny, when I talk to different derms and estheticians, I feel like it's very polarizing. Some people are like, it's too harsh. It's too harsh. And then some people feel like fraxel is like the holy grail. I've had it a number of times. I really like it. I feel like in a few weeks, your skin really. You see a difference. I want to be full disclosure here. Did I say the r. Full disclosure. Full disclosure here. The. This was a comped treatment because it is a treat treatment. It is a treat treatment, but it really does gets the discoloration off. It's kind of like it's a non.

[Jess]

Ablative resurfacing just for people who want to know.

[Kara Berry]

Yeah, it's. It's not gonna, like, you're not gonna look like Samantha Jones in Sex and the City when she's going through per winter. And you're just gonna be really rosy and a little roughed up skin for a while. But it also helps plump collagen. So I've only gone to Dr. Paul Jarrad Frank for my fraxel. I trust him. But a fraxel in the hands of an untrained person or somebody who's really loosey goosey.

[Jess]

Please see our episode Med Spa Mayhem. Thank you.

[Kara Berry]

Go to somebody who's good, who you trust, who you know somebody else has done it because it is a very powerful laser. So I can understand why people have some trepidation. But he's good. I'm excited to see the results.

[Jess]

Yeah, you get immediate results once the redness goes down. But then like two months, or I would say like two and a half months later, I got it. Once your collagen kind of kicks in, you're just like, I almost forgot. I was like, wait, why am I looking really nice? And I was like, oh, right. Three months ago, I got fraxel. So it's like a double whammy.

[Kara Berry]

Something I said to him once though, was like a year later, I was like, this. It came back. My spots came back. And he was like, it's not forever. He's like, nothing's.

[Jess]

Oh, right, because of your freckle. Like, you have a freckled skin. So you have a really good way of telling how long it lasts. Right.

[Kara Berry]

But everyone, like, if you're the kind of person who gets fraxel, let's be real, you're not like never going back to the derm. You're that kind of person who's taking care of their skin. This is like a high investment treatment. This is not like a one and done thing. This is like people get these fraxel fraxels like yearly. It's not like a fractal.

[Jess]

Like I got mine before my wedding and I haven't gotten it since. So it was. Yeah. I've seen prices like, it's usually around starting at 2000, I would say for just if people are curious, like how it goes. And it's so much more effective than those laser facials that are like $400 and they just kind of hit you with a little IPL and I don't know what's happening there.

[Kara Berry]

And then they ask you to come back again. Yeah.

[Jess]

One fraxel is like. I know they say three, but like one fraxel. Do ya?

[Kara Berry]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, yeah. You don't need to come back.

[Jess]

Especially for skin, I think like yours with. Right. Like your. Some of your freckles go away and.

[Kara Berry]

And then they come back again.

[Jess]

Yeah. Oh, do they come back in the same spots? I've always wondered this about freckled skin.

[Kara Berry]

Yeah. But then they come back with them.

[Jess]

Like there's Bob and he's back and he's below my left eyelid corner, you know?

[Kara Berry]

Yeah. And then I get new ones. But the thing is, I'm not trying to have freckle free skin. Like, that's not my skin type.

[Jess]

I'm just curious because I don't have freckles. What. How that works.

[Kara Berry]

The aim is not to have freckle free skin. And by the way, this conversation is getting a little too boring about freckles. My. My point is not to have freckle free. My point is just to have a little bit more clarity. And then fraxel also helps with. I left out fine lines. And it also helps with collagen. Yeah, it's just an overall skin glow up, but super helps with clarity and darkness and luminosity and all that good stuff. But again, a treatment. Heavy on the treat, heavy on the treatment.

[Jess]

We. Before we get into the news quickly, we had someone write in and I.

[Kara Berry]

Want to see if you have an.

[Jess]

Answer for this person.

[Kara Berry]

Let's talk about. Yeah, we had. I love our, like Eagle eye makeup freaks. Okay, so Isa Maya, some of you may know that Isa Maya, we talked about her a billion times on the show. You know that I'm like a huge fan of her makeup line. She is expanding her reach and she is going to be in Sephora. That's kind of massive because her line was super niche. You know, I've been like, banging the drum that she's at Moda since launch. That was like a huge, exciting thing. At least. At least for me. Well, actually, and our clients, because she was like one of our top, top brands and I'm sure will continue to be, but she is now going to be at Sephora. So that's big because Sephora is massive. And one of our eagle eyed listeners wrote with the new core collection. Well, she kind of implied core, which is like, Isa Maya's new line arriving at Sephora. Will the existing Izamaya color collection be phased out? Well, Isa Maya's color collection, like, her whole ethos was she dropped these collections like they were fashion collections. Like, I remember when she came out, she was like, why do we have to do a makeup line that always looks the same? Why can't we do it like fashion, like a designer reinvents themselves every collection. Like, they could be a little prairie girl one season, Next season, you're like goth princess. And it's totally new packaging, totally new imagery. And like, to be honest, I have no idea how Isa Maya did it because it was like completely new molds every time. And like a mold, you could just picture what a mold is. Like, the packaging had absolutely no consistency with the previous season's. Like, the previous season's packaging. That's a ton of money to, like, create a mold. Like gobs of money. And then to do all new product, like, it just looked like a different company. And that was sort of the brilliance of it. If she's gonna be in Sephora, which has like hundreds and hundreds of doors, this is me saying this, not Sephora. I cannot imagine how you would keep up that business model. It just doesn't make sense and also appeal to a huge audience. If you're doing something like the first collection, which was all about bdsm, how is that gonna work? Yes, right. The second collection, which was like this Vegas show, you know, rodeo showgirl. That was brilliant. I could see that appealing to a Sephora customer. She has no shortage of ideas. She's an incredibly creative person. She can appeal to everyone, I think, from a grandma to like a tween. So I think she could do Anything. But I'm excited to see what happens. Now to answer our listeners question.

[Jess]

Yeah, go on.

[Kara Berry]

No, I'm getting to that. I asked the Isamayya team and she said the Coraline is going to incorporate many of the staple Ismayya products such as the lip lac and the bombs. They're going to be rehoused in new packaging. And P.S. this is me talking now. I saw them, they're in new packaging. They look like very similar. You won't be disappointed. Please watch this space for color. So my suspicion is there's going to be like, it's going to be a little bit of a half and half. I also would seriously watch ebay for if you want those first, some golden oldies.

[Jess]

Yeah, yeah, so good point.

[Kara Berry]

And Moda. And Moda.

[Jess]

Because we still have some toot that Moda horn.

[Kara Berry]

Yeah, thank you.

[Jess]

For the listeners. I mean we've been getting voicemails, we've been getting DMs, we've been getting texts. In fact, if we go do the news, we're going to do something a little different and we have a very interactive listener moment. So. All right, let's get into it. Have you noticed when there are low temperatures and low humidity, your skin can have a tough time retaining moisture even if you're keeping up your skincare routine. I think I've said this before, but I have finally figured out the way to keep my skin hydrated and looking good in this kind of weather. I mean it is 19 degrees in New York right now. I'm taking Rituals Hiacera skin supplement, a clinically proven way to support skin hydration with science backed benefits like reducing wrinkles and improving skin smoothness. Listen, I'm not going to take any supplement unless I can see the receipts and Ritual has them. In a clinical study, Ritual Hiacera led to a 2.9 times increase in skin smoothness within 90 days as compared to placebo. And subjects reported an improvement in skin elasticity, glow and radiance in 90 days. The best part is you don't have to figure out when to put another product on your face. This is a supplement you swallow. It's just one capsule a day and you can take it whenever you want. So much easier than some of these other beauty supplements out there which have like six horse sized pills a day. No. I also like that Ritual works with world class certification bodies to validate their products. The company is a certified B core with supplements that are vegan, gluten free and made traceable. On top of that, Ritual uses Scientific tools to select lower carbon packaging and product. Prioritize sustainably sourced ingredients. Start hair to support your glow without compromising on clean science. Haasera from Ritual is a clinically proven skin supplement you can actually trust. Get 25% off your first month for a limited time at ritual.com mascara. That's ritual.com mascara for 25% off your first month. Okay, so it's February. It's the month of love. You know what's sexy? A bra that fits. I am telling you right now, Honey Love is going to make you feel like your best self. And everybody talks about lingerie when it comes to Valentine's Day and things like that. But Honey Love bras, they're sexy because you just you feel like you. You look like you, but better. And they're shapewear and they're comfortable and everything fits where it's supposed to. But no underwire and they don't look like gross shapewear. You're not going to look like you have a tofu bra on. You know what I'm talking about?

[Kara Berry]

Oh my God. We talked about that. The tofu bra. No, these are cute.

[Jess]

It's not that. Honey Love is great.

[Kara Berry]

And listen, if you're tired of those bras that cause the bulging in the back, you know what I mean? Just kind of like pops everything up. Bras are designed with back smoothing fabric to prevent the dreaded bra bulge. Check out their V neck bra for a totally smooth fit under clothing. It offers the support of a traditional bra, but without that uncomfortable underwire. It has molded cups that are designed to lift and separate. So you're not going to get that dreaded uniboob shelf effect. And Honey Love isn't just about bras. They've got shapewear tanks and leggings that are just as comfortable and supportive. Jen. I've been wearing the little power shorts when I have to wear a satin skirt and they're fantastic. That super power short is like the must have. So good.

[Jess]

Treat yourself to the most comfortable bra on Earth and save 20 off site wide at honeylove.com mascara. Use our exclusive link to get 20 off. That's honeylove.com mascara. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Treat yourself to Honey Love because you deserve it. It. I know I'm not alone when I say adulting can be overwhelming. And what we all could use is a drink. That's where apple and Eve juice comes in. As the rulers of the Juice box. They've been making juice joyful for 50 years with refreshing juice blends bursting with bold flavor. One sip sends you right back to childhood. So when the grind dulls your shine, remember to kid yourself. Apple and Eve has delicious juices for at home and on the go shop today. Okay, so our conversation about the Sephora tweens. I'm just calling that the conversation, but we know it's about the birthday parties at Sephora Gen Alpha, getting into makeup and anti aging skincare. It's continuing. In fact, there's a new legislation that was just introduced in California, a representative there, Alex Lee, Democrat representing District 24. Okay. Hi, it's future Jen. Future Jen who is editing the episode. Just jumping in here to say we're about to have this conversation about Alex Lee, the assembly person and this bill in California. I misgendered. Alex. Alex is a he. So as we continue the conversation, I just keep saying she and then you'll just gonna know from now on that that is incorrect. Sorry, Alex Lee. Okay, let's get back into it. Don't know if you're in District 24 in California. She brought a bill to the floor. She would like to propose banning the sale of anti aging skin care to children. And what she wants to ban specifically just before we talk about this so we can all understand is the sale of products containing vitamin A and its derivatives. So that would be retinols, retinoids and the like.

[Kara Berry]

All the retins.

[Jess]

All the retins, Alpha hydroxy acid, including glycolic, ascorbic, citric, which I was like, okay, ascorbic is vitamin. But anyway, so the acids and the retinol, basically.

[Kara Berry]

Okay.

[Jess]

And she, in her release, she said the beauty industry is cashing in on the quote, Sephora kids phenomenon where children are buying and using anti aging products. And she wants to stop that.

[Kara Berry]

Okay, thank you.

[Jess]

Alex Lee. I have thoughts.

[Kara Berry]

Okay, go ahead.

[Jess]

I understand the concern, but I think she's missing the point. First of all, we can't get legislation to get like health care for children in many places in the United States and we can't get legislation for things like that are like really important. This feels like it's a band aid just showing her constituents I care about the issue, but I don't think it needs to be legislated. For me, this isn't the place to have a conversation and come up with guidelines that work and whatever. It's not. The courts and the legislators also think about a preteen that has acne and might Very well. Need a retin A derivative to deal with pimples. So the fact that she's calling it anti Aging skincare says to me. Does she? There's just so much nuance. Like, that doesn't. I don't think all the kids are going in there because they want to look younger. They're going in there because it's fun.

[Kara Berry]

You feel like her heart's in the right place. Yes.

[Jess]

But I just a don't think it needs legislation. And I'm like, we already have like a lot of legislation. That's just like, what?

[Kara Berry]

No, Anyway, I think it's complicated. I think she's trying to stop the madness. I think that, like the fact that most adults don't even know how to use a retin A. Yeah. Literally, like really intelligent adults, really intelligent women do not know how to use. And this is not like. And they don't even know how to use a retinol. Like, it's complicated. I've burnt my face off with retinol.

[Jess]

Yeah.

[Kara Berry]

So selling it in a store where, you know, when I was 11, I got dropped off the mall by myself. You know what I mean? Like, and you know, here's 20 bucks and if I'm like, cool this hot pink and, you know, lime green, I'm gonna buy this. I don't think that there's anything wrong with saying, maybe we should not sell this to kids under 15 or 11.

[Jess]

Couldn't a retailer though put in place a guideline?

[Kara Berry]

They could, but it's not in their interest.

[Jess]

Of course they wanna sell products.

[Kara Berry]

Yeah, it's not in their interest, but.

[Jess]

To me it's like the parents should be the one to decide whether they buy it or not.

[Kara Berry]

Parents are so busy. Busy.

[Jess]

I know.

[Kara Berry]

Parents don't know what's in their kids backpacks. They don't know what's in their kids.

[Jess]

But it's not simple like a tanning bed or a cigarette or something that like, is very clearly bad for a child. Because these ingredients.

[Kara Berry]

Because of the acne and stuff, right?

[Jess]

Well, the acne was one point of it, but it was also like, it's so far reaching in the way it's worded, I feel like it oversteps.

[Kara Berry]

No, I understand the nuance of if your kid has acne, it's like, what are we gonna start regulating? Like, I'm dating myself. Like Stridex pads. You know what I mean? It's so vague and it's like, there's so much wiggle room. Like, what is anti aging? Like is who is to decide. There's so much gray.

[Jess]

Yeah. Because you might just put on. Maybe there's like, I don't know, a sunscreen that happens to have vitamin C in it, which a lot do. Vitamin C and the acid, citric acid and ascorbic acid are on this bill. Of course. I would like a child to be using sunscreen. So now you can't buy that sunscreen because it has those ingredients. It's just rather, I wish that like the retailers and there was a conversation and people were just teaching about these things or perhaps the makers of the products could say intended for, you know, age X and up, which happens in other categories.

[Kara Berry]

I think we are so far from that.

[Jess]

No, we're not. We're starting the conversation.

[Kara Berry]

Well, we're starting.

[Jess]

Right. Cause the Personal Care Products Council can get involved and say, sure. Like we talk to our members about particular products having a. Not a warning on them, but maybe a warning.

[Kara Berry]

I think brands need to. I think any brand who wants to be seen as a thought leader right now, and that is such a kind of corny term, like we're a thought leader in this space. But like any brand who wants to be taken seriously as being responsible for young people's beauty journey from the day they pick up their first cream to seeing them through, you know, the rest of their lives, it would behoove them to put some sort of label or get in their face on TikTok or whatever social platform they're using and really educate them and not just try to keep selling them stuff.

[Jess]

Right, but you're agreeing with me then? Because then it's on the people making the products, the retailers, people like us talking about the products, not the government. Like what?

[Kara Berry]

Yes. But right now we are both living in a very optimistic space. But I'm hoping, I'm hoping, hoping, hoping, hoping, hoping. Are you listening? I'm hoping that the retailers will step up. And a lot of them are.

[Jess]

Yeah, yeah. They're part of this conversation. Yeah.

[Kara Berry]

I mean this was not an education play but like what Kiehl's did was beautiful. Like years. A couple years ago it was like the only anti aging cream kids should buy. And it was like kids like eating ice cream or the only 10 step routine kids should learn and it was kids doing ballet. I think they were acknowledging where kids and beauty, what that relationship should be. I could see them as their customer. Who knows what their plans are to address that market. But how would they educate that customer? Who knows what drunk elephants. I have no insight into what drunk elephant is planning. But what is their plan as we're having this conversation or I'm sure they're very well aware of the news item you brought. What is their plan to educate customers who are 12, 13 about retinol? Maybe they have one and I'm just not aware of it. So I welcome them to inform me. But it's all really interesting and it's we got a lot of feedback from the listeners about this whole conversation which.

[Jess]

Yeah, we'll get to. I will say this legislator brought similar legislation last year to the floor and it did not pass. So I don't think this is gonna pass. And sometimes a legislator does this to make noise to show their constituents who they got some calls from. Parents like listen, we're caring and here we are talking about it, which is what I want to happen. Everybody have a conversation about it. But like if this passes, what this isn't the way forward. But let's see what our listeners think about this whole thing most what if we were legislators?

[Kara Berry]

Like what kind of crazy things?

[Jess]

I don't wish that I what a thankless job. Like thank you to our representatives.

[Kara Berry]

Truly, truly I wish I was a legislator. I would bring the most wild things to the world.

[Jess]

But they're expected to be. Cause I can see also like a personal care products counsel coming in, but then an angry mom coming in. And they have to become experts on these things that you and I have been researching and involved in for 20 years and we still know there's nuances to it. Like to get whoever has the last person that talks to legislature, they're like, oh, maybe that's the truth. And then they bring a bill and it doesn't get to all the details. When we talk about sunscreen a bit later in the news, you'll see exactly what I mean. But first let's get our listeners in on the conversation. We haven't done this in a minute, but we have a couple listeners to speak with. They are mostly responding to the Sephora birthday parties conversation, but it's all part of the same thing. So the first one up, let's hear from a listener from South Florida.

[Monica]

Hi, this is Monica calling from Florida and I had forgotten about this experience and your recent podcast on Tween Sephora Parties Etc reminded me that I did this. I am going to be 35 years old this year. I was born in 1990 and at some point, probably between 2000 and 2003, I went to a Sephora birthday party in Miami where I grew up and it was a friend from childhood. And the party was taking a limo, like a black stretch limousine from her house to the mall. Date Land Mall, shout out for folks from the area and getting a little makeover at Sephora and eating at Cheesecake Factory, maybe. And it was so fun. And I think everybody participated, and it just wasn't really a thing. It was just a fun, let's sit at the beauty counter, you know, somebody touching your face. We probably had, like, hair glitter in. And that was it. And we just had lunch and went home. And the limo was part of the experience.

[Listener from California]

And it was kind of a fancy.

[Monica]

Birthday party, I guess. And I don't know how much it would have cost or anything for the beauty counter experience, but it was a really fun memory that the recent conversation shocked for me. So all of this to say Sephora birthday party is apparently not that new, or my friend was really ahead of the trends 25ish years ago. Anyway, thanks for the pod.

[Jess]

First of all, I have to mention, by the way, thank you to our listener from Florida. You can always say your name if you feel like saying your name. I don't think a lot of people do. And if you get cut off, I just realized our voicemails are only three minutes. Call back and I'll edit it together. But here's another listener with a similar experience telling us this is not a new phenomenon. So this is a listener from California.

[Orianna]

Hi, Jeff and Jen. I'm calling about the Sephora tween birthday party phenomenon. And I just. I'm 31, so, you know, I'm not Gen Z, not Gen Alpha. I'm on the younger end of millennial. And when I was in middle school, my friends and I would go in Santa Monica to the 3rd Street Promenade Sephora. We just go to 3rd Street Promenade. That was a place to hang out Friday night. And we'd all go to the Sephora and use all the samples, put on all the makeup, and just was really fun. You know, we all wore makeup in middle school, but it was different than it is now because we were bad at it. Contouring didn't exist. It was very much like urban decay. Bright five different colored eyeliners. You draw a little heart on your temple with a eyeliner like crazy. Urban decay was very big. Just like those eyeshadows, all the different colors, they're just all kind of different. Because now, you know, I walk around and I see these little middle schoolers, and they look like 20. They're, like, hotter than I am. And I'm like, this isn't good. That isn't good. That is children sexualizing themselves and people sexualizing children. I don't think that's good. And I don't think the birthday parties at the for to buy things are necessarily good either. I feel like things are a little different now because of the style of makeup, is trying to look older. Back in I was in middle school in 2005, 6, 7, 8, those sort of years and seen was really in like not emo, but scene with a big teased hair at the leg. That sort of makeup was very popular. And it's not, it's not attractive. It's very, very fun and artistic and definitely not sexual or making you look better. I think so. I think there's kind of a big difference is the style of makeup. You know, the makeover, birthday party, we didn't buy products at the end. I do think the consumerism aspect isn't great. But then what? Who am I to talk? We go to Build a bear. What's that? You know, buying a teddy bear. That was really fun. I loved Build a Bear. Anyway, I think tweens going into Sephora and playing with all the samples has been around since at least 2006 when I would go do it.

[Jess]

Okay, she does have a point. But I'm not sure if it's like a generational thing that like the looks have changed.

[Kara Berry]

Listen, I think, I don't think she's wrong, but I also know that 30.

[Jess]

Years ago they probably thought that was sexualized.

[Kara Berry]

Right, that's what I'm saying.

[Jess]

Like every generation's idea of what is too much shifts, whether it's one way or the other way. I don't know. But like it's in context of the current generation and it's like, sure, if you put that girl back in the 1950s, I'm sure everybody would be appalled. The girl with like a full face of makeup at 12 or whatever. Right.

[Kara Berry]

But like, you can't deny that things do change from generation to generation.

[Jess]

Like that meme we always talk about like me at 12, teenagers now at 12.

[Kara Berry]

Right, right. And me, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jess]

I don't know. And they have like, they're doing a full on dance choreographed with like a hot outfit. And we were like singing into our shoe in front of a mirror, you.

[Kara Berry]

Know, with braces and like. Yeah, buck teeth and a sweatshirt with puffy paint. Yeah.

[Jess]

But again, the point being like, okay, she's 31. So this has been going on for a minute. This is not a new thing. And we here at the media are like it's a new thing and it's not a new thing.

[Kara Berry]

Oh my God.

[Jess]

Okay, I love this. Let's keep it going. We have a listener from Portland.

[Flo]

Hi, Jess and Jen, this is Orianna in Portland, Oregon. Oregon. I'm really out of my comfort zone here, leaving a voicemail, but I do enjoy hearing the listeners talk on your show, so I thought I would try. I am calling to add to the conversation about the Sephora birthday parties. I am a mom of a 10 year old girl and I also am an esthetician here in Portland. I have a facial practice and my issue really with the Sephora parties is less about kids experimenting with skincare and makeup, which I think can be fine, but it's more the issues with consumerism and wealth inequity and you know, like that tween age is really. I've noticed when kids start comparing themselves to their peers and really noticing what their family can afford versus other families. So that's the part that makes me more uncomfortable. I know this is a little ironic coming from someone who gives facials for a living. I thought a lot about this. I haven't really come up with a clear answer, but in the meantime, girls got to make a living. But anyway, I did want to offer sort of an alternative because I know a lot of people can't afford to give their kid a Sephora birthday party or even to buy skin care products for themselves, much less their child. So a few months back, my 10 year old asked me to give her a facial. And we've tried this in the past, but she was just too, too little and she was just kind of wriggle off the table. It didn't really work, but this time she really wanted one. So I took her to my work and we did like a little acting where I pretended like she was a real client and brought her in for the facial. And it was just the sweetest, sweetest experience. She just loved it. I just did a really gentle facial massage, a little arm massage, a little hydrating mask. She fell asleep on the table and it was just like a very, very, very special moment. I kind of teared up. I was like, oh, there's how many more times am I going to be able to do this with my kiddo? You know? And so it kind of gave me an idea that what if instead of these Sephora birthday parties, you did like a little facial birthday party at home? Dim the lights, turn on some calming music, maybe make some spa water with the kids or whatever, whatever that means and put some pillows on the floor. Do, like, just, like, little massages on each other's faces. You can just get a jar of a bottle of, like, jojoba oil or grapeseed oil. Sort of making it about human touch, self care, human connection, and less about consumerism of the whole trend. I also just wanted to quickly say that I really appreciate you guys learned so much from your podcast, and I love your new host, Garrett, and Julie as well. And if any of you are ever in Portland, please hit me up for a complimentary facial just to thank you for everything that you've done. And you have my info now so you can reach out. Okay, Sorry. So long winded. Take care.

[Monica]

Bye.

[Flo]

Bye.

[Kara Berry]

Okay, caller, you call her caller. Caller. First of all, I'm coming to Portland just to get a facial. Okay. But. But also, I've never been to Portland, and I really wanna go. Love Portlandia. Such a great show. Okay, sorry. It is. That was such a great show. We used to watch it all the time. Okay. You really struck a nerve, and I feel like you crystallized something that I could not put into words. I think we definitely talked about, and if we didn't, shame on us. Like, the consumerism and stuff. And I mentioned, like, forget about the kids. Some parents might not be comfortable. And I mentioned different values and things, but I think what was missing was something that's actually quite glaring, and that is this issue of the consumerism, but the wealth inequality. And one of the things that really appealed to me about beauty when I was growing up was that it was democratic. And something I always like to say is, like, beauty always fits. And it's not only in, like, a size way. Like, I loved fashion growing up, and I actually thought for a minute, it's gonna be in fashion. But. But there was something that fashion, as much as I love it, it can feel very exclusionary. One, it's just like, the size thing. Fashion also has a little bit of a. Like, an air that can make some people feel like they don't totally fit. But also it's very. It can get very expensive beauty. For me, you know, when I was younger, I was like, okay, I may not be able to buy the fashion I want. When I was growing up, everyone, you know, not everyone, but it was like, a lot of people had, like, the Kate Spade bag. I'm putting myself in a very specific space and time and even some little Prada bag. But for me, that wasn't something that was ever in my future. But I could go to cvs, call Back to a couple episodes ago, talking about the magic of the drugstore. And I could use my spending money or the money that I earned from $5. $5, Bam. I am right on trend.

[Jess]

I have a cool dark brown lipstick.

[Kara Berry]

Yep, I'm in the moment. Or I was, you know, working a lot. I went to Nordstrom and I cleaned up at the mat counter, you know what I mean? And I have the best you can buy.

[Jess]

Yeah.

[Kara Berry]

And there's something about beauty that like the ceiling, at least in my mind. Now I know it can get real damn high like C Fraxel, but like in my mind at 15 years old, the ceiling only goes so high. Beauty is like 100 bucks is as big as it gets in my small 15 year old mind. And it wasn't about acquisition. It was about just experimentation and like self expression and pampering yourself. And you know, she mentioned.

[Jess]

And the touching.

[Kara Berry]

Yeah, the touch. Connecting, having a conversation at the counter. Little pots of little curious things. It wasn't this collect them all. Do you have what I have? It was different and I know I sound like a little fuddy duddy, but it was different. And now it feels like, I don't know, I think it's because the industry blew up, which is a good thing for beauty, but it feels like it exploded into this very luxury moment.

[Jess]

I have to think that.

[Kara Berry]

Does that make sense?

[Jess]

Yes, I think that part of what that is is the influencer economy. Because yes. Now what we share is where you learned about trends. Like you'd see it in a magazine, you'd cut it out and you'd put it up. Or even on social media when it was like the friend next door on Facebook talking about just vitamin C in general, not a particular product, or let's do face masks. And now almost every piece of information that a person of that age gets on social media is branded content. Whether or not it is noted. The way these people make money and are able to make videos and make the things that your kids want to watch on YouTube and TikTok is because brands pay for them. And whether they realized it or not, once they let those brands in to be the money behind the content that they're producing because they're not journalists and there's no ethics in that. Not that there's no ethics, but like that's how the economy works. Yeah, it infiltrated and it became consumeristic because every video that was cute and talks about how to apply black eyeliner now ends with a try this one code below that part of it wasn't there before.

[Kara Berry]

Yes. It was more like magical.

[Jess]

Even early YouTube, I would say, was still that magical place. Like Michelle Phan era, when it was like, I'll teach you how to do this. But, like, not everything. She just loved it. It wasn't that she was getting paid to promote.

[Kara Berry]

You know, people also sometimes use this term, Jenna, and I'm curious, do you agree with this or not? Okay. Cause I'm actually not sure if I'm buying into what I'm saying right now, but, like, let's test this out. Yeah, let's test this.

[Jess]

Like my friend Clayton, let's throw it at the wall. We'll see if it sticks.

[Kara Berry]

Let's throw this at the wall, see if it sticks. People say, you know, top. And it's been like this for a while. Top down is over. It used to be top down. Like the journalist, the director saying, this is how it is. This is the mascara of the moment. No one wants to hear that anymore. But I really liked or even pretend Michelle Phan. I know she had a conversation with her listeners, and that was very special. Or her. Whatever, her audience. But it was like, she's the expert. The beauty director was the expert. Or the person on QVC was the expert. And now that's so outmoded. Right?

[Jess]

You're the expert.

[Kara Berry]

Yeah. Or like, there's billions of experts on TikTok. Okay?

[Jess]

Everyone's expert.

[Kara Berry]

Everyone is an expert. There's no more authority. But I really liked. Just tell me what to do. Tell me what the color is. Tell me how to.

[Jess]

Oh, you did like that.

[Kara Berry]

I did. Like, as a young person and before I got my.

[Jess]

So how's that different than what's going on now?

[Kara Berry]

Because now it's like, I feel like there's 80 billion.

[Jess]

Oh, there's too many. Tell me what's to do.

[Kara Berry]

Yeah, like, there's. It's. It's.

[Jess]

I think I learned something. And then I go to the swipe up, and then the next person is saying something completely opposite with a whole different product.

[Kara Berry]

Right. It's like. And it's not like I'm a moron or I'm like, oh, I don't know what to do. But it's like there's no sort of. It's almost like there's no one in charge. It's kind of like the world today. It's like there's, like no kind of calming sense.

[Jess]

There's no guardrails or like.

[Kara Berry]

Yeah, yeah, There's.

[Jess]

It's just a lot of noise.

[Kara Berry]

Chaos and noise.

[Jess]

It Needs a tight edit, as Jess likes to say.

[Kara Berry]

I would like a tight edit. I would like Linda Wells at the beginning of Allure being like, you know, here I was with Kevin.

[Jess]

But that's not how young people think about information. Also how truth. It's like my version of truth and your version of truth. There's no one truth anymore. It's just not how information's disseminated.

[Kara Berry]

I didn't want to put out as truth. I just wanted, like, tell me in a form.

[Jess]

Right. But I'm just equating it to the way we think and the way how we think about communication has changed because of social media. She brings up a lot of great points. There's one more caller I do want to play. I want to keep talking about this, but obviously it's a conversation that'll be ongoing, so you can continue to call in. By the way, do you mean there's.

[Kara Berry]

No one truth at the end of this conversation?

[Jess]

Sorry, guys.

[Kara Berry]

Hate this place. Okay, go on.

[Jess]

646481, 8182. Okay, one more caller. She's from an Illinois area code, but I don't know her name. But she was talking about something, Jess, that you brought up about how we approach girls who are wearing makeup. Okay, let's listen.

[Listener from California]

Hi, Jess and Jen. I am listening to episode 565 and y'all are talking about first or early encounters with beauty and being shamed by adults in your life. And I had a similar story. My godmother was an Avon seller growing up, so we had all of this fabulous product that she would occasionally give to me. And I was about 11 when I remember having these beautiful pastel light blue and light pink, sparkly, creamy, glittery eyeshadows. And I layered that stuff on. And looking back, it was definitely way too thick and kind of disgusting because I didn't know what I was doing as a 11 year old and my mom was trying to convince me not to wear it and brought in other moms of other children in the school who she knew I liked in the hallway to try to get me to change my mind, which of course just made me double down because I was embarrassed and ashamed and also definitely not going to do what I knew that they wanted. But it was an interesting topic and I just wanted to reach out and say, gosh, I think that that is maybe a more common experience than I would like for it to be. And I have a daughter now, so it's making me think about how I want to treat those situations in the future. So thank you so much. Have a great day.

[Jess]

Wow. I love that also, She's a mother now. It's so funny when you remember a thing your mom did and then you now are the mother, and you're like, am I gonna do it the same way or am I gonna do it different? I don't love that that happened to you. I'm sorry.

[Kara Berry]

To me or the late. Or the girl who called?

[Jess]

To the woman who called. Oh, you too, Jessie? Little Jesse. No, it's the same thing. Cause she related to what happened to you with this shaming of. I don't think that's the way to go about it at all. But look at you. You have a daughter now, and you'll do it the way you want. Oh, it's so loaded, this whole conversation.

[Kara Berry]

I wonder if the woman. If it was. I'm giving this woman, like, the shamer, like, the benefit of the doubt, and I don't even know why.

[Jess]

Well, it's. The mom had the friends of the other moms in the school. You know when you, like, recruit and you're like, mom, you don't know what you're talking about. And she was like, well, Sue's mom and Mary's mom say the same thing. And not only that, then it was like, Sue's mom and Mary's mom trying to make the case to this girl.

[Kara Berry]

And she's gonna remember that for the rest of her life. And it's like, I feel like they do that sometimes to protect. Like, they do it to, like, protect. Like, they don't want the child to be, like, embarrassed, and they also want.

[Jess]

To be like, it's not just me. This is how other moms are doing it. Like, you're not alone in this, you know?

[Kara Berry]

But it's like, it just makes the girl feel bad. It's so bad.

[Jess]

Yeah. I think it's so important for the children in this whole conversation to have their own say. In fact, I should point out Lexi's working on a project where she is talking to Gen Alpha about how they use makeup and skincare. So we're gonna get some voices from younger people into this conversation, too, and we'll keep going for now. Moving on, we have two other things to talk about. Speaking of legislation. So, Jess, I know this is near.

[Kara Berry]

And dear to your heart. Sucks. Yeah. Okay, so here's.

[Jess]

Here's the thing.

[Kara Berry]

I cannot be, like, impartial. I'm sorry.

[Jess]

Here we are in the United States. The FDA has confirmed in a story that was just published that they will be requiring animal Testing for sunscreens. This was. So this happened in a piece that was published in beauty matter on February 18th. US FDA spokesperson unnamed, was quoted as saying the following. The FDA unnamed. You know what, I've had FDA spokespeople before and I know their names and I have their emails, but they have to be quoted as just like, like generic, of course.

[Kara Berry]

So they don't have like a. Yeah.

[Jess]

So here's what they said. The FDA routinely evaluates drugs that are absorbed into the body to ensure that the benefits of these products outweigh any potential risks that result from absorption. In short, the current science does not allow for the replacement of all animal studies with non animal methods. This is because current non animal methods cannot reliably predict effects that may occur through complex interactions between the drug and the human body. As a reminder here in the United States, the drug in question is sunscreens. They are an over the counter drug. So. Wow. I reached out to the fda, of course, to confirm this is still their, their stance. And I also spoke to some scientists about this. This was published in February. One of the people actually quoted in the article told me they were interviewed in December. So my guess is that is also when the FDA spokesperson was interviewed. And we now have a new FDA commissioner coming in, so things might change. However, what I hear from people on the street is that, no, this is currently, for at least the next four years, the stance of the fda, however, it's wrong. It's straight up wrong.

[Kara Berry]

Wait, wait, are you saying it's incorrect or you're saying it's absolutely incorrect?

[Jess]

They are incorrect to say that you cannot tell the safety of a product.

[Kara Berry]

Yes. Okay.

[Jess]

In any other way except for.

[Kara Berry]

And are you saying it's wrong? According to Jen Sulliv. Are you saying it's wrong?

[Jess]

But also some scientists. I'm about to quote for you.

[Kara Berry]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Jess]

Roll the tape, Roll the tape. Well, first of all, I had talked to cosmetic chemist Krupa Kostaline about this a while back, and she gave me a plethora of different tests that can test for carcinogenicity. I can never say that word, but whether or not a product will cause cancer and also hormone disruption that do not use animals, which involves testing on tissue cultures, 3D printed organelles, AI assisted computer modeling. And then I called up Jeff Brown. He's a senior scientist at PETA. So he works with people in the FDA all the time to help advance the science that does not use animals. And here's what he had to say. There's not A single regulator in the rest of the world that says that what the FDA said. There are no companies that say that. It's just the fda. I imagine every sunscreen maker is probably lining up to speak with the incoming FDA commissioner so that they're aware that this position that you just heard about in that quote is a problem. Because I don't think it costs the FDA anything to just collaborate on a solution. What it feels like they're doing is insisting that this is the way forward and then not allowing commentary, just trusting that people won't push back. He went on to tell me sort of the consensus around the world the best way to test for safety is called woe weight of evidence. Because not any test could have a negative result. What you want is many, many tests and lots of historical data to show you whether or not an ingredient is safe. Because if you just cherry pick one thing, whether it's an animal test or not animal test, you're getting a snapshot and you can see a confusing moment. This is why also we don't cherry pick studies. We look at the whole weight of evidence together and all of the weight of evidence does not need to have animal testing. It. There's so many other ways he said that we look at. And in fact, if you just look at an animal test, he mentioned this one test for cancer used mice for over the course of many years, there were a lot of problems with the data. And he worked with people who saw that data and said you can't just take that one study. So he went on to explain that people inside the fda, for example, those working at the center for Drug Evaluation and Research, that's called cder, they've published reports that say especially for the tests, evaluating sunscreen ingredients that are thought are being tested for carcinogenic properties, that the multi year rodent tests they've seen are not helpful and they would prefer a woe approach. My last quote from Jeff, just so you know, because you're like, why would they do this? Well, here's what he thinks. So I think that what you're seeing now is that you're looking at an instance where the scientists within this division of the FDA are saying one thing, but then the public face of the fda, the senior leadership is saying another. He says there's no way everyone at FDA is really thrilled about this. It seems like the issue is being kicked down the road and people who are saying let's get comfortable and in five to ten year process, and then you know what, my successors clean up the Mess when the data comes back or whatever, let them figure it out. So basically saying the FDA knows that it's messy, knows that they need lots of testing, but instead is going to insist on these animal tests. Because by the way, they take about three to four years to complete one animal test. So we won't even get the data back for another three to four years, which means the whole thing is just on hold. And while that all happening, by the way, there's Mocra and a lot of trying to be a lot of like reform within the FDA and how they test sunscreen ingredients, but this basic. Basically puts everything on hold.

[Kara Berry]

Wait, so is he saying that they will do animal testing right now?

[Jess]

That seems to be what the FDA wants. And whether they want it because they think that's really the most helpful for consumers, or whether they want it because, you know what, if we ask for animal testing, that means a couple more years where we don't have to actually figure this out and issue guidance on ingredients.

[Kara Berry]

I get it, I get it.

[Jess]

But like in other countries, this is not how it happens.

[Kara Berry]

Yeah. I also reached out to Vicky Katrinac. She's from what was formerly known as the Humane Society of the United States. For all of our knowledge, they are now known as. She's the director of animal research and testing at the Humane World for Animals. So, yeah, they changed their name recently. She also took a similar stance. She said there's already extensive safety and efficacy data on sunscreen ingredients derived from decades of human use and historical animals.

[Jess]

Yes, yes, preach.

[Kara Berry]

Yeah, decades. Decades of human use and historical animal testing. She said if the FDA determines that additional information is needed to confirm safe use parameters for UV filters, the agency should prioritize non animal testing methods to generate human relevant data. And she said, echoing what you're saying, animal studies are inherently limited in their ability to accurately reflect human responses to sunscreen exposure and as such cannot reliably assure human safety.

[Jess]

They're not even good tests.

[Kara Berry]

Yeah, so like I can just see people nodding their head being like, well, you know what? It's gotta be tested on animals because they test medicine on animals. Like, I've heard the most cockamamie things over the past few years whenever I stick up for like no animal testing. And they're like, well, just. I mean, I won't even get into it because I don't wanna like derail this conversation. They're not accurate tests. Yeah, they're not accurate tests.

[Jess]

Well, they're part of, if they were done in the past, that data should be Part of the way we look at them now.

[Kara Berry]

But now they're not necessary.

[Jess]

Well, they're not necessary, exactly. The other thing.

[Kara Berry]

And they're not helpful.

[Jess]

Well, the other thing is I asked Jeff, so what can you do? Because a lot of people want a animal safe, cruelty free sunscreen. And what are they going to buy? Obviously titanium dioxide and zinc oxide, which already have the generally recognized as safe stamp on them, if you will. You could pick those because they'll still be able to get something like a PETA certification. But if this goes through, PETA's gonna have to pull up certification on any of these other sunscreen ingredients, which are usually the chemical filters, and that's gonna be problematic. And Jeff was basically telling me, like, call your legislators. Because the reason this is hap. Like this is sort of skating by is because most people don't pay attention. You can very much call your legislators and say, I don't think the FDA needs to be doing animal testing. And if we make enough noise, I guarantee you they're gonna pull back on this.

[Kara Berry]

I'm gonna ask Vicki what we can do. Sorry.

[Jess]

Call your legislators. Call your legislators. If you're in the United States. Sorry. If you're not in the United States. We have a lot of British listeners and Australian listeners, and your governments clearly do things the better way. But I'm. I'm working on a story about this and I am doing some more reporting. So we'll keep filling you in. But if you saw that and you were very confused, rightfully so, you should be confused, because what's going on, the.

[Kara Berry]

Whole thing just like my. My last two cents. I think the whole thing is gross. The whole thing is backwards. No, it is. It's gross. I know it's backwards. And the past, like, year, and especially the past few months, but especially the past year, I just feel like there's been such a deprioritization, but just like a flippant, honestly, fu. To anything that has to do with animals. And it's so interconnected and I'm so sick of it. I'm so sick of it.

[Jess]

We'll keep reporting on this. I agree. It's just. And when you get down to the facts, it's just plain wrong. So, yeah, I can't stand that. Let's end on a high note here.

[Kara Berry]

Yeah, fine. Okay.

[Jess]

Another conversation that's like a fat mascara. Favorite chocolate brown years.

[Kara Berry]

Oh, yeah, Cool. All right.

[Jess]

Oh, yeah, Cool. I just saw this story come out and I was like, I have to tell the listeners about this. The Masses are finally in agreement with us. Something we've been saying for years. This was a new article that was just published on Friday in Vogue by Ana Morales. She was talking about 2025's trending eyeliner flatters, those in their twenties and those in their seventies. Matlin. Guess what color it is.

[Kara Berry]

Could it be chocolate brown?

[Jess]

That's right. So makeup artist Raquel Alvarez is quoted as saying, black creates an aggressive visual contrast when you put it next to your eye. And you want something softer, if you will. The article suggests Chanel's Stilo Waterproof and Brun Agape.

[Kara Berry]

I don't know.

[Jess]

Sorry, French listeners, What's your dark brown? Jess, do you have one that you like to go for?

[Kara Berry]

I was using for so long. Clinique. Oh, my God. What? Like the cream eyeliner? I don't know if they make it anymore, because I used the same one for, like, 10 years, but it's. Clinique had, like, the best cream eyeliner in a stick. Yeah, just like a. Yeah, like a cream. Yeah. And it was, like, a dark chocolate one. I think it may have been called something chocolate.

[Jess]

That's so funny. I was gonna mention the Bobbi Brown gel eyeliner, and it's actually called Dark Chocolate Ink. Except what I really want. And, listeners, you can help me out with this is a liquid eyeliner and a pen that's dark brown. Because I've tried all the browns so far of the liquid eyeliners, and they're always too reddish brown or medium brown. Like, I want that black mixed with brown.

[Kara Berry]

So that sounds good.

[Jess]

I know. I've tried Charlotte tilbury, urban decay, L'Oreal. But the one I just noticed, Nyx, they just expanded their waterproof liquid eyeliner line to have both two shades, Milk chocolate and dark chocolate. So milk chocolate, I think, is what I don't want. I'm gonna try it anyway. Of course. But dark chocolate. So I think we have to update. It's not just your chocolate brown years. It's your dark chocolate.

[Kara Berry]

Dark chocolate brown. Wait, I've got it. Okay, ready? It's the Clinique Cream Shaper for eyes.

[Jess]

Yes.

[Kara Berry]

I found this in my 20s. Okay. So I used it, like, when I was, like, 26 is when I started using. Cause I remember where I got it. Yeah, it's $25, Clinique. Can you send me one?

[Jess]

Like, you're not gonna find it. What's the shade. What's the shade of the cream cob?

[Kara Berry]

I also used to use Egyptian, but I don't want Egyptian Anymore. It's chocolate luster.

[Jess]

Chocolate luster.

[Kara Berry]

Yeah. Cream shaper for eyes. It's got 469 reviews on their site and it's got four and a half stars out of five shapes and defines with intense, stay put color. And it has a little bit of shimmer. It's a creamy smooth pencil. It's very creamy, guys. That's also good if you are truly in your chocolate brown.

[Jess]

Yeah. Your lash line is not as smooth as it's loose. The dark chocolate needs to flow smoothly.

[Kara Berry]

Like a liquid, like a fountain.

[Jess]

Like a fountain of dark chocolate at a very fancy hotel.

[Kara Berry]

Just lushly falling over at a Swiss hotel.

[Jess]

In my head it was Hershey in Pennsylvania, but sure, we could go to Switzerland. I've only experienced a chocolate fountain once and it was Geneva. Hershey. Oh, you had one in Geneva.

[Kara Berry]

We were in Geneva.

[Jess]

That's some dark. That's good chocolate right there. Not that there's anything wrong with a Hershey's special dark or milk chocolate. Anyway, we've up. I'm updating our, our, I'm updating our statement. It's entering your dark chocolate brown years everywhere.

[Kara Berry]

Dark chocolate. Let that flow, baby.

[Jess]

But also, by the way, if you have a dark chocolate brown, liquid eyeliner, call me.

[Kara Berry]

Okay, Liquid, let's go.

[Jess]

Raise the wands. That's.

[Kara Berry]

Yeah, that is definitely like, I don't know if I've seen one.

[Jess]

That's the darker. Yep, exactly.

[Kara Berry]

Yeah.

[Jess]

All right, well, the listeners are on it. Call us 646-481-8182. You know how you look at some people and they just look rich? Their clothes are the good materials. Their sweater doesn't have any poles. They're wearing the cashmere, the wool, the real leather bag. Quince lets me be one of those people. It's become my go to for luxury essentials at affordable prices. Quince offers a range of high quality items at prices within reach. Their famous 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters start at only $50. They have washable silk tops, cotton sweaters, 14 karat gold jewelry, and a really great selection of purses and clutches in rich looking colors. The best part, all Quint's Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quint only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I love that. Also, remember how I wanted a Tweety blazer? I ended up getting the Italian wool oversized blazer from Quince and it was under $100. The color is called textured brown if you're shopping on the site, but it's like this taupe brown gray tweedy mix that looks good with everything. Give yourself yourself the luxury you deserve with quince. Go to quince.com fatmascara for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince.com Q-U-I-N-C-E.com fatmascara to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com fatmascara we all have that one friend whose opinion we trust on everything.

[Kara Berry]

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[Jess]

So if you want a recommendation that.

[Kara Berry]

Really sticks, put your brand in their hands.

[Jess]

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[Kara Berry]

Visiting go.acast.com ads.

[Jess]

Okay, it is time to raise a wand. Our listener inbox. I need maybe if I delete old voicemails they've been cutting off after three months minutes.

[Kara Berry]

So I just read the old ones.

[Jess]

I know, but I love all our listeners and I want them in my memories forever. But a listener who is a pharmacist called in and wanted to say so I just want everybody to know I hear you pharmacist. I heard you rant. She called it a rant, but basically she was talking about how her job has gotten so much harder because of EBM Medical, which is a clearinghouse, and the lack of transparency in pricing. So she has to watch her pharmacy losing money over certain prescriptions that she's filling and there's just not time to deal with the rest of the experience. She also wanted to point out when we think that a CVS is like a non personal interaction when we buy stuff, she's like at my pharmacy, every interaction, even when you're buying something that's not a drug, is very personal, which I get.

[Kara Berry]

I think a non c she was her mom. Yeah.

[Jess]

And I think we were talking about those self checkout which is like at every store now, not just pharmacies. But I want to let that listener know I hear you. I heard you couldn't play your voicemail because it got cut off. But I do have Flo from London instead. Here's Flo.

[Monica]

Hi Fat mascara.

[I]

Long time listener, first time caller here, Flo in London. I really love hearing you speak about the Stella fragrance. I used to wear it in sixth form or high school and I really, really miss it. I remember my best friend went off to university, really missed her and I was envious of her newfound friendship with another girl. I visited and found out she also wore Stella and it all made sense to me. I don't have any left to smell, but I just sprayed myself with a quarterly rose de vin in a pharmacy and I'm not sure if it's totally accurate, but it did really take me back and give me that feeling and remind me of it. So if people are looking for a relatively affordable option to try bring that that nostalgia, that might be a good shout. It definitely has that sparkle to it, especially on first spritz, and has the same rose and the combo. So worth a shout. Other shout outs to products I've recently been enjoying are the L'Oreal Palette Paris True Match, the one concealer which I got ages ago and is a bit of a rediscovery and I don't think it's spoken about very much. It wears really, really well. It looks great at the end of the day. For contact, I have light skin with pink undertones and this is a good option that doesn't pull too yellow. And if anyone's listening is from the UK or is visiting, I really want.

[Jess]

To shout out Super Flo.

[Kara Berry]

I'm going to check that out. It's so funny. The Stella thing really hit a chord with people because I've got a number of DMs about Stella. I think we're all mourning original Stella. That fragrance was so powerful.

[Jess]

The replacement she mentioned, if it was hard to hear, I believe it's Caudalie Rose de Vine. If you're in the United States, the Caudalie line of perfumes, there's like six. They almost look like body mists. Kind of.

[Kara Berry]

Yeah.

[Jess]

They're not easily available, but I found the one that I have is $40 at Walmart. Weirdly enough, Walmart.com, so I'm gonna link to that in the show notes. But if you're in Europe, like a lot of listeners are, those are pretty readily available in the drugstores. Actually, that's not an expensive perfume. It's like a Au Fresh, which I think is just like the fancy version of way to say a body mist. But thank you.

[Kara Berry]

Kadali does nice work. Their sense.

[Jess]

Yeah. I wonder why they're not bigger. Body mists are so hot in the United States right now too. Get on that codalie, expand, give it to us.

[Kara Berry]

Can we also Just talk about why. Well, I don't know. You know, we need to have somebody to come on and really talk about. About unpack. We need to do like a mini episode on Stella. No, we really do.

[Jess]

We need a whole new. Okay, we'll look into it. And who the perfumer is, I wonder.

[Kara Berry]

Yeah, it was under ysl when she was under ysl. I just. That whole brand, the whole beauty brand is so enigmatic, shall we say, to me. So if anyone's listening from Stella, who were. Was like a. Who was really like enmeshed in that brand, please reach out to us because it keeps coming up with our listeners and we need to talk about it. We need to talk about Stella. Okay, what's your raise of wand?

[Jess]

So I. Oh, also to Flo, thank you for the L'Oreal Paris True Match recommendation. Oh, yeah, that's just a reminder. Everything's always linked in the show notes, so you go ahead and click on that.

[Kara Berry]

This was a drugstore moment.

[Jess]

It was indeed. It was indeed.

[Kara Berry]

Okay.

[Jess]

I am raising a wand. I can't even find it because it's like traveled with me everywhere. So I might be in the latest coat to Winky Lux. It. Pink Lemonade Lip Balm. What a delight. Just what a joy this product is. It's in a little rose gold bullet. Do you know how the Winky Luxe ones, they're like, they look adorable, like a capsule. And then it's a flat top lip balm with three stripes of color. So it just feels like a candy. Like a pink, a yellow and a white. It goes on. I don't like menthol in my lip balms. Cause I think it's drying, but there's some sort of fresh sensation to it that is not drying. And it gives ever so, so slightly the like barely there pink. It might even be a ph. Kind of triggered pink tint. I'm just obsessed with it. It's adorable. Winky Lux.

[Kara Berry]

It's sparking joy.

[Jess]

It's sparking so much joy. And don't we need that? If you've listened to this episode, which got very deep, but to give it a little joy. You have the Pink Lemony lip balm. I love it. Raise the word.

[Kara Berry]

I don't. Okay. I don't think Jen and I were talking for a second offline. I don't think that she said, I don't think anger is a place to like, operate from or. What did you say?

[Jess]

Oh, about animal testing.

[Kara Berry]

Yeah. Because I was pissed.

[Jess]

Yeah. I said I don't remember what I said, But I was like, okay, I know you're angry, but like, what else? What can we do? Like action, not anger.

[Kara Berry]

I think anger is a great motivator.

[Jess]

She disagreed strongly with me.

[Kara Berry]

I think anger is as long as you're not like, punching walls or like harming somebody.

[Jess]

But I came around. Cause I was like, you know what? You're right. Here I am trying to be rational and factual and lay out the science and lay out facts, and yet I notice in the discourse around the world right now, what makes movements, what gets things changed? It's not rational discourse.

[Kara Berry]

As long as we're not. As long as you can't like infringe on anyone else's rights though. That's true.

[Jess]

Bring your anger. Keep your anger.

[Kara Berry]

Just keep your hands to yourself, guys.

[Jess]

And keep the anger. Just generalized anger is okay. Not towards one particular person or group.

[Kara Berry]

Or group.

[Jess]

Yes, that would be a good generalized anger. But you're right. I don't know why I keep thinking that rationality and facts will win the day when clearly they do not.

[Kara Berry]

Grab your winky Lux bomb and get to the streets, Jen. Okay?

[Jess]

This is how we affect change.

[Kara Berry]

Okay?

[Jess]

And she's right, though. If you're calling your legislator and you're like, here is, you know, the weight of evidence approach and here are the studies. No, you gotta be mad and be like, like, it's 2025. Stop testing on animals and start screaming at your legislator. Go for it.

[Kara Berry]

Oh, I don't know.

[Jess]

Mascara listeners.

[Kara Berry]

I don't know. I don't. In my experience, people don't love when you scream at them. I don't know.

[Jess]

Oh, so your anger has limits. Okay, I don't.

[Kara Berry]

Yeah, yeah, it's. You know what? I'm trying to figure it out. Like, we all are. Okay? So, yeah, I. I don't have any hard answers, but what I do have is a fabu razor wand that actually is very much in sync with yours. We are having a mind meld moment. We both have whimsical fabulous like Calgon, Take me away lip balms. Okay. Or lip products. So I have this Neen lip gloss. Neen, created by the Janine Lobel, who created Stila, who also got a shout out like this. Stila had a shout out. This moment, this episode. It's called Glisten up lip gloss. And the name is the funniest name I've heard in like a year. It's just called Bye girl. Bye bye. And it's funny because my colleague Candice, she is our senior buyer at Moda. She always has a giggle because she knows anytime we get something sparkly, she's like, you'll like this. Cause she was not a sparkly, like, makeup person at all. And she's like, oh, my God. I was like, candace, look at this. And she's like, oh, my God. Oh, she's not a sparkly makeup person. And when I put it on, she was like, oh, that's nice.

[Jess]

So see, Candace? A little sparkle.

[Kara Berry]

Yeah. So if I can. I don't know if I impressed her, but if I showed her that I didn't look whack in this lip gloss, which is like orange sparkles or in.

[Jess]

The packaging, it looks. It looks intense. Entente.

[Kara Berry]

It looks like a alien lip gloss. Like alien princess laser beam.

[Jess]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kara Berry]

Lip gloss. But when you put it, your lips just look pouty, beautiful, kind of pinky, iridescent. And it lasts for a little while, and it feels great on the lips. I love.

[Jess]

I was just thinking about Half Magic's eyeshadows, which, like, keep selling out. I don't know if you've seen them, but they look so glittery in the pan. But then when you put them on, it's like that duochrome that just is, like, you know, it's subtler. So I think the takeaway is like, try it. You might like it.

[Kara Berry]

Try it. And it's, like, fun. It's fun to put on makeup that doesn't look like you've given up, you know?

[Jess]

Yes. I feel like the whole theme of the episode has been like, the world is burning. But put on your lip gloss and don't give up.

[Kara Berry]

No. We must rejoice in these fun things that, you know, give us.

[Jess]

We contain multitudes. We can give you the information on the FDA and legislation about Sephora tweens, but we can also enjoy a sparkly lip balm.

[Kara Berry]

We need these. This is our armor. This is our sparkle. This is our joy.

[Jess]

Exactly. We encourage you to get Claire legislators. Get your beauty sleeves, and we'll see you on Friday.

[Kara Berry]

We hope you enjoyed the show.

[Jess]

It's your reviews and feedback that help us make the podcast even better. Head over to itunes to rate and review us, or email your thoughts to infoatmascara.com we also want to answer your.

[Kara Berry]

Beauty questions and hear what products you love. To share a Razoon product review or to ask a beauty question. Email us at infoatmascara.

[Jess]

If you send it as a voice memo file, we even share your voice on the podcast. You can also do that by leaving us a voice message. Our phone number in the United States is 646-481-8182.

[Kara Berry]

Thanks so much for listening.

[Jen]

Renew your health and wellness purpose this new year with the Reset on Alo Moves, a curated weekly program of Pilates, strength and step goals to kickstart your fitness journey. It's a 30 day week by week program. Three days of Pilates, two days of strength and 8,000 daily steps plus bonus nutrition tips from Sakara. Plus for only $99 you get a year's worth of access to Allomoves on demand. Full studio experience wherever you are. Get moving. [e-mail].

[Kara Berry]

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Jess]

Hi.

[Kara Berry]

I'm Cara Berry, host of Everyone's Business But Mine. Think of me as your new friend and fellow busybody as I talk about everything under the pop culture sun, from the best way to detect a celebrity breakup or pregnancy to recapping your favorite reality TV shows from the Housewives cinematic universe. Welcome to Platteville, Kardashians and so much more. So check out Everyone's Business But Mine. Airing multiple times a week everywhere you listen to podcasts.

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.