The Benefits of Bathing Culture with Robert Hammond

Summary

Fat Mascara Episode Summary: "The Benefits of Bathing Culture with Robert Hammond"

In this insightful episode of Fat Mascara, hosts Jennifer Sullivan and Jessica Matlin delve into the intriguing world of bathhouse culture with their guest, Robbie Hammond—president and Chief Strategy Officer of Therma Group US and co-founder of the renowned High Line in New York City. Released on February 28, 2025, this episode explores the multifaceted benefits of bathhouses, their historical significance, and their potential resurgence in American culture.

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1. Introduction to Bathhouse Culture

Jennifer Sullivan kicks off the discussion by highlighting a growing interest among listeners about why communal bathhouses aren't more prevalent in post-colonial American society. This curiosity stems from conversations on previous episodes and a variety show hosted by Robbie Hammond. Sullivan introduces Robbie as someone deeply invested in making bathhouse culture a cornerstone of modern well-being.

Jen Sullivan [02:03]: "When I told her about it, we briefly discussed it. Then Garrett, our other contributor, weighed in a week or so later. He loves a bathhouse. And that whole topic brought up some questions..."

2. Robbie Hammond’s Background

Robbie Hammond shares his extensive background, including co-founding the High Line—a transformative public park in NYC that repurposed an elevated rail line into a vibrant urban space. His transition from urban planning to bathhouse culture was inspired by a long-held fascination with ancient Roman baths and a desire to create accessible well-being infrastructure.

Robbie Hammond [11:53]: "The High Line guy. I co-founded the High Line with a partner back in 1999..."

3. Defining Bathhouse Culture

Robbie defines a bathhouse as a "social place", distinct from bathrooms or spas. Unlike spas, which are often solitary and service-oriented, bathhouses emphasize communal experiences involving heat and water, such as saunas, cold plunges, and communal pools.

Robbie Hammond [04:39]: "A bathhouse is about being with other people. It’s a social experience, and it usually involves some kind of heat and water."

4. Historical Context and Evolution

The conversation delves into the historical role of bathhouses in America, particularly their association with the gay community in New York City during the mid-90s. Robbie recounts how bathhouses became pivotal social venues before the AIDS epidemic led to significant stigmatization and closures under policies like those implemented by Giuliani.

Robbie Hammond [06:45]: "When I came out in New York, a bathhouse generally meant... literally part of our culture..."

5. Bathhouses Around the World

Robbie contrasts American bathhouse culture with practices in other countries. He points out that in places like South Korea and Romania, bathhouses remain integral to daily life without the same stigmas. These international counterparts often promote inclusivity, multi-generational use, and seamless integration into urban living.

Robbie Hammond [10:55]: "In South Korea through the 90s and early aughts, they didn’t shut down... They have textile-free bathing for all ages and sexes."

6. Bathhouses in Current American Culture

Robbie discusses the nascent yet booming bathhouse scene in cities like New York, highlighting establishments such as Othership, Wall Street Baz, World Spa, Sojo, QC Therma, and Governor's Highland. These venues cater to diverse needs—from quiet relaxation and family outings to vibrant social gatherings.

Robbie Hammond [29:04]: "It’s like the ice cream museum of bathing... people come for that but stay for something deeper."

7. The Three Pillars of Bathhouse Experience

Central to the episode is Robbie's explanation of the "three stools" of bathing culture: physical, social, and spiritual.

• Physical: Engaging with heat and cold offers scientifically backed health benefits, such as improved cardiovascular health and reduced inflammation.

  Robbie Hammond [31:54]: "One is the physical. You get the benefits... reducing rates of dementia."

• Social: Bathhouses serve as communal hubs where individuals can connect, fostering a sense of community and reducing social anxiety.

  Robbie Hammond [33:16]: "A place where you come into contact with people you don't know without most of the social signifiers."

• Spiritual: Beyond the tangible benefits, bathhouses provide a space for personal reflection and connection with oneself and others.

  Robbie Hammond [33:16]: "The spiritual part connects you with yourself at a deep level, others, and nature."

8. Challenges and Misconceptions in the US

Robbie addresses several hurdles in integrating bathhouse culture into America:

• Cultural Stigma: Historical associations with gay culture and sexuality create misconceptions about the nature of bathhouses.

  Robbie Hammond [07:18]: "They were pretty much gay bathhouses that were basically sex clubs..."

• Nakedness vs. Bathing Suits: Unlike cultures where nudity in communal settings is normalized, Americans often feel uncomfortable, impacting the adoption of bathhouses.

  Robbie Hammond [45:37]: "You have to overcome the idea that they are all about hot 20-year-olds in bathing suits."

• Lack of Multi-Generational Spaces: Current bathhouses often cater to specific demographics, lacking inclusivity for families and different age groups.

  Robbie Hammond [43:49]: "Most bathhouses are single-sex and don’t cater to children."

9. Future Vision for Bathing Culture in America

Robbie envisions bathhouses as essential "well-being infrastructure" within urban environments. By situating these facilities in cities rather than suburbs, they become accessible to a broader population. His work with Therma Group US aims to build expansive, high-quality bathhouses that offer diverse amenities, from saunas and mineral pools to botanical gardens and social lounges.

Robbie Hammond [16:57]: "We want these to be part of cities... accessible with public transportation."

10. Personal Experiences and Insights

Robbie shares personal anecdotes about his journey through various international bathhouses, highlighting what he values most:

• Social Connection: Despite experiencing stunning, individual-focused baths in places like Germany, he finds communal interactions more fulfilling.

  Robbie Hammond [52:35]: "The best bathhouses are the multi-generational where you see the older guy, you see..."

• Inclusivity Issues: He emphasizes the need for greater diversity among bathhouse operators, noting the underrepresentation of Black women despite their significant patronage.

  Robbie Hammond [36:15]: "Black women are one of the biggest users of bathhouses, but a lot of businesses aren't run by them."

• Balancing Modernity and Tradition: Robbie strives to preserve the spiritual essence of bathhouses while adapting them to contemporary American lifestyles.

  Robbie Hammond [31:54]: "Physical, social, and spiritual... to keep the spiritual part inherent."

11. Closing Thoughts

In wrapping up, Robbie underscores the timeless human need for communal spaces that promote health, connection, and personal well-being. He expresses optimism for the growth of bathhouse culture in the U.S., emphasizing its potential to become a beloved and essential part of everyday life.

Robbie Hammond [52:35]: "There’s a whole bunch of recent people coming, but the reasons they stay are deeply rooted in human needs."

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Key Takeaways:

• Bathhouses are multifaceted spaces that offer physical health benefits, social connections, and spiritual fulfillment.

• Historical and cultural contexts significantly shape the perception and functionality of bathhouses in different regions.

• American bathhouse culture is in a nascent stage but shows promising growth as cities seek to incorporate well-being infrastructure.

• Challenges such as cultural stigma and lack of inclusivity need to be addressed to democratize bathing culture in the U.S.

• The future of bathhouses in America lies in creating accessible, multi-generational, and socially enriching environments that resonate with contemporary lifestyles.

Robbie Hammond's expertise and vision position him as a pivotal figure in transforming bathhouse culture, advocating for spaces that nurture both individual and community well-being.

Transcript

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[Jen Sullivan]

Hello. Hello. Hi everyone. Welcome to Fat Mascara, a podcast about beauty culture. I'm one of your hosts, Jen Sullivan. I would love to ask you a quick favor. If you have two seconds, maybe it takes like five seconds, please throw us a review on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen if they let you do reviews. Or you can comment directly on episodes on Spotify. In fact, this episode is exactly why you should comment. It's the comment section on Spotify where I got the idea for this episode. So if you remember our contributor Julie, Julie Wilson and I, we spoke a few weeks ago about a variety show that I went to. It was called the Bathing Culture Variety show here in New York City. When I told her about it, we briefly discussed it. It set off a discussion in the comments. Then Garrett, our other contributor Weighed in a week or so later. He loves a bathhouse. And that whole topic brought up some questions, but the main one being why aren't bath houses a bigger part of post colonial American culture? Like, you just do not see communal bathhouses or social bathing scenes in most of the United States right now like you do in other areas of the. Well, someone who is working to change that is today's guest, Robbie Hammond. So he was actually the emcee of that variety show I told you about. And he's also the president and chief strategy officer of Therma Group US which is part of Therma Group, a global group of companies that believes well being should be accessible. And they're probably best known for developing wellbeing resorts, many of which include a bathhouse element. So before this job, Robbie was the co founder of the High Line here in New York City. And if that sounds familiar, it's because it's the public park that runs along elevated former rail line and brings together art, people, nature and more. So Robbie is going to answer some questions that were raised by listeners about preconceived notions many Americans have about what goes on in bathhouses. But he's also going to talk about why he loves bath houses, the culture they facilitate and offer us a vision of what bath houses or bathing culture can be in the future here in the United States and everywhere around the world. Okay, let's just get into it and welcome Robbie to the virtual studio. Okay, Robbie, welcome to Fat Mascara. Hi.

[Mason Moore]

Hi.

[Jen Sullivan]

Okay, I've talked about you on the show already. I hope you know that I went to your bathing culture variety show of which you were the mc. Truly a role made for you, I have to say. And I really enjoyed it. And I realized a lot of people and a lot of our listeners don't know a lot about what even a bathhouse is. So before we get into you, before we get into the cultural of it all, like, hi, welcome to Fat Mascara. First of all, hi, what's a bathhouse? How would you define it?

[Mason Moore]

Yeah, you know, that's part of it is that it has a real. What we tried to do in the variety show is to show there is no one bathhouse, but it's basically a place. It's a social place. It's not your bathroom and it's not a spa. To me, a spa is somewhere, it's underground. You're usually by yourself, or if you see other people, you pretend you don't see them and you get treatments. Whereas a bathhouse is about being with other People. And it's a social experience, and it usually involves some kind of heat and water. It can be a sauna. It can be cold plunge. It can be just sitting in warm water. But to me, the most important part is really the. And I'll get to some of the things that I think make it important, but really, to me, it's about. It's a social experience.

[Jen Sullivan]

Okay, yeah, we're gonna get into that. But first, I mean, how did you, like. What was your first bathhouse? Do you remember the first bathhouse you ever went to?

[Mason Moore]

I guess I grew up in Texas, so we didn't really have any. I guess my first one was the Russian baths on 11th street here in New York City. On 10th Street. On 10th street, yeah. Probably in the mid-90s. I graduated from college.

[Jen Sullivan]

Now, is this the bathhouse where there's the two owners that had the fight and you. And if you had a subscription, you had to go on Tuesday, Thursday, or Monday, Wednesday. Okay, I know the value.

[Mason Moore]

So now it's there. It's to a niece and a nephew that own it.

[Jen Sullivan]

Yeah, you. Growing up in Texas is like, most people in America don't have bathhouses in their. In their towns.

[Mason Moore]

And the Russian bathhouse is a very specific experience. It's more of a. It's called Russian and Turkish baths, but it's really more of a traditional Russian banya. The hot room. They have a room like you would have in a hammam. But it's really, to me, a Russian bunyan. It was very traditional. It's been there for a hundred years. When I went, it was a lot of Russian and Hasidic men, and then a lot of gays. I think every other day was all male clothing optional. And so there was a really heavy gay cruisy aspect to it.

[Jen Sullivan]

Okay, you're getting right into this. So then I have to ask you about this. This came up on my podcast too. How does gay culture play into bathhouse culture? This is not where I wanted to start. But you did bring it. But a lot of people think that that is still the culture.

[Mason Moore]

It was actually the first when I went to go work for this company that does these huge, large scale questions. Before I had the job, the first question I asked the CEO, I was like, well, what about the gays? Do the gays have sex in your facilities? He was like, he got. I realized I jumped in too quick.

[Jen Sullivan]

You did that on my podcast too. It's like, I'm giving you a job interview here. Here we go.

[Mason Moore]

Yeah. So when you When I came out in New York, a bathhouse generally meant. You said the Russian bathhouse. You meant that one. But if you said a bathhouse, you generally. Most of the bath houses were gay bath houses that were basically sex clubs. I mean, people went for other things, but that's really why you went. Now, interestingly, they were not built as gay sex clubs. They were built mostly as Russian bathhouses with these little rooms. Cause I realized when I went to an old bathhouse in Munich, I went. And they had. When you got in, they gave you a sheet and a towel and a key, and you got a little cabana with this crappy, thin mattress. And the idea was you would go and bathe and then come back and take a nap.

[Jen Sullivan]

So the bath was the communal part. The little cabin was your little nap pod.

[Mason Moore]

Yeah, was your nap pod.

[Jen Sullivan]

But turned into.

[Mason Moore]

But it turned into, you know, as the Russians moved out of the city and the gays moved in, it was a pretty convenient switchover to those being little cabins that people could retire back to. But. But it's not as all fun and laughter. When I moved to New York, because it was also in the middle of the AIDS epidemic, so they became very politicized around gay panic and health, because there's also a health crisis. And this is where the gay community was divided. A lot of gays said, look, this is one of the few places we can meet up. This is where, you know, we meet people. This is literally part of our culture. And then there were other gays that say, look, this is a vector of disease. This is where people. And another argument in favor was like, look, this is where we can encourage safe sex. You know, it's Actually, there's an opportunity here because you have people here, and ultimately, like, Giuliani just shut them all down. And it's interesting, if you look at bathhouses, there's always. This is not the first instance of, like, sex panic and health issues. And we can get into the health issue of our own time, you know, with COVID So for those of us of a certain age in New York, when you say bathhouse often. And a lot of bathhouses in other cities, if you look them up, if you. Because now when I go. I will Google bathhouse. Often you get gay bathhouses that are clothing.

[Jen Sullivan]

Now, is this in America or other cultures?

[Mason Moore]

Because I feel like, No, I mean.

[Jen Sullivan]

All over the world.

[Mason Moore]

I have a friend that would go to Rio, and when he went to Rio, you know, he would always go to a local bathhouse. That's not me. That's a friend that did that. And those were basically, you know, you could as a way to meet friendly locals. But so yes. So that is not a us thing. Now most of them closed after the AIDS epidemic and what happened, it also took down a lot of non just regular bath houses. The whole industry became sort of stigmatized around homophobia and that you were gonna catch aids. And people honestly didn't know at the time how it was transmitted. So there was a lot of false narratives. But what I find interesting is they talk to a 20 year old now and you say bathhouse. Either they think of the thing in Williamsburg or they don't even know what I'm talking about.

[Jen Sullivan]

Well, I think you're right. And by the way, if you were in South Korea through the 90s and early aughts, they didn't shut down there. The Jim Jabangs like that in different cultures. This never had the issue we have had here in America. Is that right?

[Mason Moore]

Correct. And that's why my CEO didn't know what I was talking about. In Romania, the large therma that's not.

[Jen Sullivan]

It's still the thermal.

[Mason Moore]

These are huge public facilities. And that's why they don't tend to have either gay or straight sex is because they're huge. They're naturally lit. There's thousands of people, you know, they're not tucked away in a dark basement.

[Jen Sullivan]

I want to talk about some of the different types of bathhouses around the world. But first, what we're doing here in America and what's happening. But first, like we have to go back up a little bit. And to you specifically, people in New York know you as like the High Line guy. Tell us who you are and how you actually, what you do now. What is your job now? Why am I talking to you about bathhouses, Robbie?

[Mason Moore]

Yeah, so yeah, the High Line guy. I co founded the High Line with a partner of mine, Joshua David, back in 1999. So 20 over 25 years ago. And then I ran it for almost over 20 years. And so that's most of my life is Highline. It was sort of my first baby and then I'd been wanting to leave. I didn't want to die at the High Line. And I left once before and ended up going back and was sort of ready to leave, but I couldn't find a job that was that interesting. The High Line's a pretty good job running the High Line. No matter whatever I got interested in artist or creative person or graphic designer or program, I could always figure out a Way to incorporate it into the gardening, urban planning. Yeah. Whatever it was, I could find a way to loop it back in. And so it was a pretty fun job. But then I heard this mentor of mine sold his company to his employees, and I thought he was going to retire. But he said it was during COVID and it was the first time I'd seen him in two years. And he said, I'm going to go work for this company that has this huge bathing operation in Europe, and we want to. And he was trying to explain it to me, and I was like, stop. I get it. I get it. This is what I've dreamed of. The Roman baths were an obsession of mine. I got to live in. I got a Rome prize, and I got to live in Rome for a year in 2000 and 2012 and became obsessed with the Roman baths. Why couldn't 2000 years. Why couldn't we have something like that? These giant facilities with the best art, libraries, food. Everyone from the wealthiest to the poorest citizen would go there. Why can't we have that? We have stadiums. We have all these other jobs.

[Jen Sullivan]

We have the High Line. I see a connection. There's a through line.

[Mason Moore]

I sort of did think, oh, if I could do the High Line, could I do that? Probably not. And so I let it go. But then when I heard. When I found out about this company, it's called Therma, the concept. There's a few of them in Germany, the one that the company I work for has as the main facility in Bucharest. And these things are huge. We just bought another Therma that's 750,000 square feet. That's like Yankee Stadium.

[Jen Sullivan]

And where Scales. And where is that?

[Mason Moore]

That's outside of Munich, called Erding. Therma. Erding. And then the smallest one In Bucharest is 350,000 square feet, which is also huge.

[Jen Sullivan]

Okay, this means nothing to me. How many people could fit in that? That would help.

[Mason Moore]

So, yeah, the larger one gets about 2 million visitors a year. You can have 4 or 5,000 people at any one time.

[Jen Sullivan]

Okay, so these are bigger even than the biggest ones in New York City, that, like World Spa and those kind of places.

[Mason Moore]

I mean, by a factor of 15.

[Jen Sullivan]

They're stadiums.

[Mason Moore]

Yeah, except they're like botanical gardens because they're all under glass. And you have multiple pools, 2,000 palm trees, thousands of plants. And there's different sections. There's a park for kids and families that's basically a really nice indoor water park. But most of it, two thirds of it, is just for adults. So you can have 25 saunas. You can have mineral. All different kinds of mineral pools.

[Jen Sullivan]

So you took a job with them. What do they pay you to do every day? What's your job?

[Mason Moore]

I know it's a pretty. I thought I had a good job before. I mean, for the first few. In the first year, I spent a lot of time just going around the world looking at bath houses and spas and trying to understand what were the competitors, what's out there? And that was. It was at a time where my husband and I had just had our second kid. And so it was a source of incredible discomfort in our relationship in that he was at home with a several month old. And I was like complaining that I had to go to three hammams and my skin really had been overly scrubbed.

[Jen Sullivan]

We all hate you.

[Mason Moore]

I was like, I shouldn't have done the treatment again. Or I went. When I was in Helsinki, I think I went to maybe nine saunas in one day. Which is tiring. It is tiring.

[Jen Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Mason Moore]

But he didn't care.

[Jen Sullivan]

But to what end?

[Mason Moore]

You're doing this to us.

[Jen Sullivan]

To what end?

[Mason Moore]

To figure out how do we bring this to the US So Germany and Europe has this product. They're called Thermal Bass. They're all different size. They're not as big. We have the biggest. But these are all over Germany. Some of them are resorts, but most of them are mass market products. It's just like people go all the time. It's like going to the local wine.

[Jen Sullivan]

Can I paint a picture for people like, you know, Great Wolf Lodge out in pa? I don't know if our listeners all know that, but I'm from Philadelphia. Like, yeah, it's like an indoor water park with a hotel, with a restaurant, whatever. Some of them.

[Mason Moore]

But yeah, some of them. And some of them are nicer and don't. I mean, I love. I go to Great Wolf with my kids and some of them are sort of.

[Jen Sullivan]

That's not what I'm trying to do.

[Mason Moore]

Yeah, but they're more for adults than kids right now. When we think of. People often just think, oh, so you're building water parks. But it's really. And it's not. And people say, oh, it's a spa. But again, spa conjures up basement alone. Someone whispering to you, Can I put the towel over? It's expensive and very expensive. So the average entry price for a family in Romania is $25 a person. So. And people stay between four to six hours. So it's really four to six hours. Yeah, it's a staycation. People don't go. 60% of the people in Bucharest have visited. I like to think it's like democratizing well being. That's why it's sort of the opposite of the spot and the opposite of most of what well being is today. Like I go to the Global Wellness Summit and you know, a lot of it is hotels now it's sort of filtering down. It used to be the six senses of the St. Regis had wellness facilities. Now the Hyatts and Marriotts are trying to get in. But they're really luxury products, they're expensive and they're really for most people, if they're even available or accessible at all. It's sort of a vacation thing. It's not something people can afford to do every day. And so that's what, that's to me what bath houses do. Is this more accessible well being and it's not part of it? Yes, is a new trend. I'm sure every one of your listeners has heard of contrast bathing the hot and cold, getting into the cold. I mean literally people have been doing that since as long as we were getting in water. But that's sort of a newer trend. But people have been doing that in bath houses for thousands and thousands of years. Again, 2,000 years ago, the Romans had these facilities that could fit a thousand people in each one. So this is not new. People have just been rediscovering it over and over and in different reasons. I mean, now I think a lot of it is. One of the things I think is people go for the health, but they stay for the social. They stay for the friendship, they stay for the other reasons. It's what often gets people there now is the. They listen to a Peter Attia podcast or a variety of different things, but it's something about health, longevity. But then they realize all the other benefits.

[Jen Sullivan]

What is it about this that drew you? Was it the making a community aspect? Was it the urban planning? Was it I just really like bath houses? And then, yeah, what's your job?

[Mason Moore]

It was that I, I found the High Line. The reason, I think, and it wasn't like we necessarily like planned it like this. I think the reason the High Line is successful is the way people used to use their leisure time was they would go to boxes, you would go to a museum. If you wanted art, if you wanted to play, you'd go to a theater. If you wanted to work out, you go to a gym. If you wanted nature, you go to a park. If you wanted plants, you go to A botanical garden. Some ways what the High Line did is it combined all those into one. And now people want to experience things together. In sort of the old days you went, you know, you'd go by yourself or just friends. Now people go in groups and they also want to capture it. And so in some ways that's what the High Line was. A combination of all these things put together in a completely unique way. And that's what I recognized right away that Therma had done is they had taken water parks, some parts of spas, pools, health areas, sort of beaches, bath houses, and put them all together into sort of one kind of product. That again is not new. In Germany the same scale was new, but we didn't have that. We have all those verticals, we don't have it in one. And so one of the reasons they hired me was I had sort of an experience of creating a product people really didn't. A new category that didn't exist. Now if you say, oh, we want to build a High Line in our city, it doesn't necessarily mean an elevated railroad. It means some kind of creative use of old abandoned space. And that's what we, I think with Thermo we want to create this new category of these bigger facilities that keeps the size allows us to have higher quality. So like we use an ozone filter with the water so it doesn't smell like chlorine or mold. An ozone filter costs thousands of dollars. Even an Amman can't afford an ozone filter because it doesn't make sense to get a multi million dollar filter for a small pool. Whereas our size, we're able to do things like that. The other thing the size does is it keeps the price down and makes it more accessible. So it also connected like urban planning. Because we want to put these in cities. That's right now most of them are in the suburbs. Like where you would normally go to some kind of attraction. Yeah, greenfield development places where they're just picking a field and having 20 acres. The CEO guy Robert Hanayo, when he hired me and who is my mentor now, my colleague and boss, John Alschuler, we were all committed in the US to doing and all the future ones, we want to be in cities, we don't want them to be in the suburbs, we want them to be part. And that's the other thing that I recognize. This is like well being infrastructure. If the High Line was a kind of social infrastructure, sort of like libraries and parks, this is a kind of well being infrastructure that cities need and they shouldn't be you shouldn't have to have to drive to them. You should be able to access them with public transportation or in the middle of cities rather than outside. And it's corresponding to a time where cities need people to come back into their core and there's a lot of extra, extra space because the commercial and retail uses aren't that strong as they were in downtown foreign.

[Jen Sullivan]

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[Mason Moore]

Oh my God.

[Garrett]

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[Jen Sullivan]

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[Garrett]

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[Mr. Moore]

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[Mason Moore]

Let's go.

[Mr. Moore]

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[Jen Sullivan]

Brad, you're on mute.

[Mr. Moore]

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[Jen Sullivan]

Now you have your work cut out for you in America, which we'll talk about, obviously misconceptions. How are you going to do this? Is there a history of this in the United States? I'm thinking like pre Robert Moses era.

[Mason Moore]

Yeah, I mean, Robert. I mean, yes, there were Bath houses that, that's what these bath houses that became, you know, they were before the Russian bath, Stephen.

[Jen Sullivan]

Just like a public pool, I don't know, is.

[Mason Moore]

I mean, it was actually during the Robert Moses that they built these large scale public pools, which is a kind of public bathing.

[Jen Sullivan]

And you want to sort of reinvigorate that in a new way.

[Mason Moore]

Yes. And I think what we're interested in also is, I mean those were just seasonal because those were all outdoors is how can you do this year round?

[Jen Sullivan]

Okay.

[Mason Moore]

And when we're talking about. I'm interested in what I'm paid to do in my job, which is for Therma Group. And we want to build these big facilities in several cities in the us but it's going to take us. It's like a high line timeline. It's going to take us multiple years. We have to get the space, then we have to get the zoning. We have to be able to raise the money, we have to build it. It's going to take four or five years at the earliest till we can open one of these. And so in the meantime, I just became obsessed with this bathing culture that is already happening, this renaissance of bathing that's already happening. And to me, the best example is just a few blocks north of me in Flatiron. There are four bath houses within five blocks of each other. And three of them all opened last year and they're all doing gangbusters. I tried to go to one at 9 o'clock on a Wednesday and it was already sold out. You can't even go unless you buy tickets weeks in advance on the weekend. And then there's still the Russian Baz and there's the Wall Street Baz and then there's World Spa and there's Sojo and there's QC Therma and Governor's Highland. And they're all very different products. Like I go to them for different reasons and that's one of the things I really want to encourage people to do. One of my favorites is Othership and it's probably one of the most popular and others is Bathhouse. And you see a lot of them on Instagram. They photograph beautiful. It is amazing when you. It's one of those things. Normally when you see it on photo on Instagram and then you go to it and it looks kind of crappy. Like whenever I walk in to other ship, I'm like, this looks like an Instagram reel, you know, it's so flattering. Do you think that's flattering?

[Jen Sullivan]

Popularity that definitely are These like the ice cream museum of like bathing. I don't know.

[Mason Moore]

Yeah. And. But I think again people come for that.

[Jen Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Mason Moore]

But they stay because they're getting something else and I want to come back to the. There's three to me like pieces of the stool of bathing. But for some people, other ship's not going to be the right thing. They don't want to sit there that close with a bunch of 20 year olds and thongs. I mean some people, that's what they really want. Some people, you know, they want something else quieter and so they can go to other. You know. If I go on a double date with my husband, I like to go to bathhouse because it's quieter and you can do. You don't even have to go in the sauna. You can just sit in the warm pools and get food. If I want to go on a sort of a work meeting, I go to Ilani because it's quieter. It's easier if I'm by myself and I just want to get like a quick sort of fixin'I. Go to other ship if I wanna go on like a staycation, you know, if I wanna take like a weekend and go for several hours, I go to World Spa which you know takes 45 minutes or sojo in New Jersey. So there are all these. I just want people to try other things.

[Jen Sullivan]

Yes.

[Mason Moore]

Cause they're not.

[Jen Sullivan]

And Thermo would maybe be. The family's gonna go, we're all gonna connect together. The cousins are gonna come. We'll meet you at Therma Group for a day's outing.

[Mason Moore]

It doesn't replace. That's why it's so great and why I love these people that own these things because they're not really competitive. We just. When we did this, the thing you went to, it was the end of a two day conference that I organized with 100 bathhouse owners. Yes. So we got 100 people from all.

[Jen Sullivan]

Over North America are some of the best looking people I have ever seen. I know I sat down in that audience and I was just like what? Everybody in here looks like a model Jesus.

[Mason Moore]

But not. You don't have. That was one of the issues that came up. Some people complained about the photos that people use on Instagram. Cause they tend to use the really fit people and that's not how everybody looks like. And so there's other operators that actually purposely use regular looking people.

[Jen Sullivan]

But this is the thing about wellness. And I wanna get into your three stools of bathing. Cause that is really interesting. But with Wellness. It feels like we're at this inflection point of. It could be it wants to be mass, it wants to be democratized. We want people to be healthier, all of us. But it still has this connot of like the elites and like modeling and beauty.

[Mason Moore]

Yeah. Either wealth or body.

[Jen Sullivan]

Yes.

[Mason Moore]

Or age. I'm often the older one.

[Jen Sullivan]

But if you go to a bathhouse in another culture, you have made me realize like, oh wait, this is like actually the perfect marriage. Because it's none of that. The aunties are there, you know, this person's eating french fries. I'm talking about certain kinds of bathhouses, but I love that. Okay, back to this. Three prongs. We've got one of them. I'm guessing community.

[Mason Moore]

No, social. So I didn't make this up. There's a guy, Mikkel Aland, who in the 70s wrote this book called Sweat and I think he was in like his early 20s. He went all over the world and researched and there was a renaissance in bathing in the 70s and he went all over the world and wrote about. Almost every culture had a bathing tradition and he wrote about them. That's why it's not called sauna, because it's not. Sauna is one particular tradition from one country. But. But all these countries had different traditions. And he wrote this book and he just came out with a documentary called Perfect Sweat that's on Amazon, you can download it. Where he went back and just revisited all these places 30, 40 years later. But he says there's the three stools and that what he found is for them to be really fully successful, you needed all three. One is the physical. So the heat, the cold, that's where you get the benefits. Like when Peter Attia is talking about cold, you know, that's the physical side, the living longer physical, the social. To me that's also where you get the health benefits. To me that's what's more, especially these 20 year olds that you see othership. I'm not worried about them living to be a hundred. These people are so fit and they're so young. But you do worry about their social life.

[Jen Sullivan]

It's a huge cultural discussion right now. Young people and their social anxiety.

[Mason Moore]

Yeah, and all of that. So to me, the social aspect that it's a place where you come into contact with people you don't know and even if you don't talk to them, even if it's not like, oh, I have to meet someone every time I go, you're coming into contact with people you don't know without most of the social signifiers. Yes, you can tell how much someone paid for a bathing suit generally, but it's a lot less. And so you're having a different social connection and you're basically getting high with these people because you're going through hot and cold. And so you're opened up in a different way. And then the third is the most important to me. And this is the one people don't like to talk about because it's spiritual. So physical, social and spiritual. And I'm not talking about Jesus necessarily to me, and the way I heard Mickle described it is as spiritual as any connection that puts you in connection with yourself at a deep level, others and nature. And you really get all three of those. Even in a crowded bathhouse, generally there's part of it where you have a little bit of a quiet time or, you know, you close your eyes and you can feel, you feel your body, literally, you can feel it getting hot, you can feel it getting cold. You sort of come down, you have a experience with other people, whether they're the family you went with, your best friend, someone you just met, or when I go to other ship. One of the reasons I like it is I go by myself. I don't really talk to that many people, but I'm having a social experience that I don't have. You know, I'm dealing. I have two small kids and my life can feel sort of small because dealing with these kids and I go to the office, I think after the.

[Jen Sullivan]

Pandemic, it's something all of us.

[Mason Moore]

And so I get to go there and I don't have to chit chat with everybody, but I get to feel like a social experience and then the connection with something larger than yourself, to me, you know, that's whatever that is for you. And it might be very overt. Like sometimes in other troupe they lead you through sort of meditations. But I think for most of us it's that feeling we get why people come back to bathhouses is cause you feel better, you feel more connected. And so that's the part that to me, and when we did this gathering of people that people were most interested in, people think, oh, bathhouses have peaked because there's so many and it's just starting. And in a few years I think it is going to be a more mature industry. And what I think the thing we all shared is we don't want to lose the spiritual part inherently, it's social and physical, or else it doesn't work and it has to be safe. Both people have to feel safe physically and disease wise. But the spiritual is just, it's what can get edged out. And if you think about other trends that we think of as modern, but they're really not like coffee shops. We just sort of industrialize them. Thrifting is having sort of that moment yoga, you know, again, thousands of years old. But they got sort of commodified a little bit. And for some I think that the spiritual piece gets removed. And so it's really exciting to be at the beginning of sort of an industry, beginning of a social movement and thinking about how do we want to influence it, what do we want? And you know, some of the obvious things are when we had 100 bathhouse owners, there was only one black woman. And black women are one of the biggest. I mean, this surprises some people, but it shouldn't. Black women are one of the biggest users of bathhouses. It's one of the biggest demographics that you see there. So they are great customers, but like a lot of businesses, they are not necessarily running them and benefiting from it. So that was one of the things that came up is how do we support. And women have really struggled in this industry and it was just heartbreaking. There's one woman who was buying a mobile sauna to start a business and the community bank was going to approve it and they said, ann, we just need your husband or father to co sign the loan. This was a 35 year old woman who had been in finance.

[Jen Sullivan]

I'm sorry, what country in the United States?

[Mason Moore]

Minnesota. And I don't think it's just Minnesota. I mean, there was a lot of stories.

[Jen Sullivan]

I know we have the privilege of living in New York where we think things are a certain way and you have seven bath houses you can choose from every day.

[Mason Moore]

Yeah, there's this great woman, I mean this other woman was saying whenever she drives up in her mobile sauna, you know, someone rented it, they always say, oh, how did you. How did you and your husband get into this business? Or how did y'all, you know, wait.

[Jen Sullivan]

Was she on stage at the show? Was that what.

[Mason Moore]

Yeah, well, yes, the woman that talked about Sauna Bros. Yes, yes, she is amazing.

[Jen Sullivan]

The mobile idea is really cool because as you said, the infrastructure in a lot of places isn't there.

[Mason Moore]

Correct. And it's a low capital entry.

[Jen Sullivan]

Did you go in her. What's her mobile sauna like?

[Mason Moore]

Well, hers is in. I've actually been in it because I met her in Duluth at Sauna Days. I took my, my 7 year old to Duluth last spring for sauna days. And I met this woman, she was actually chopping wood for first off because she was fed all right and she showed my son how to chop wood. And then I heard her present and she talked about for the variety show. She made it really mostly funny, but when she actually presented it, it wasn't funny.

[Jen Sullivan]

There's an intimidation factor is what we're getting to.

[Mason Moore]

The intimidation, the difficulty of finding. I mean, none of it is probably going to be that surprising to women in general. And just because you're in a sort of touchy feely field, there's also a lot of macho. That's why we joke about the sauna, bro. It's like a variation of the tech, bro. And to me that's why I want with the culture of bathing, why we did the variety show is to take bathing back from just Peter Atiya. And again, nothing wrong with Peter. Well, some people do have a problem with Peter T. But nothing wrong with the health podcasters or Gwyneth Paltrow. That's talking about really fancy bathrooms. That's an entryway. But that's not really, to me, the important part of bathing and the bathing is is it truly should be and can be accessible for everyone. It's great for old people. It's fantastic.

[Jen Sullivan]

I have to say, I think you're deep into it and I think the majority of Americans don't yet have those connotations, don't know who Peter is. So you actually in a way are in a great place because you can, you said 20 year olds don't even know what a bathhouse is. You can represent the idea the way that you want it to be, which is social, spiritual.

[Mason Moore]

And it's not really me, it's just.

[Jen Sullivan]

I meant the bath culture.

[Mason Moore]

Yeah, exactly. I'm not like leading the bath culture. I'm not.

[Jen Sullivan]

So here's the thing though. But you kind of are a little bit.

[Mason Moore]

But it's basically I'm helping showcase the people that lead the culture are the people that go and the people that own these. Because that's ultimately what's going to drive it. And so to me it's encouraging more people to experience it and be a part of it themselves is to me, and that's what was so powerful about having all these people together that run bathhouses is we had a very shared viewpoint.

[Jen Sullivan]

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[Mason Moore]

A lot of people's first experience with bathhouse culture is from other cultures. So, you know, a lot of people's first experience. Also in New York is Korean spas Spa Castle in Texas, there's tons of these giant Korean spas and then there's the Russian baths. But I think what's happening now is People are opening bath houses that are sort of uniquely American. They might have a sauna, but they don't necessarily go back to any other cultural traditions. I mean that's like. I think othership and bathhouse are two examples of very modern interpretations of the bathhouse. You know, in some ways the interesting part is I think it's not necessarily the price. It's I think to something you addressed is, you know, when you look at it on Instagram, everyone has great bodies and you have to get in a bathing suit. And so I think that's actually one of the hard things for people to overcome. And one of the things that I think we need to do is to show people that there's other examples and not all the places are full with hot 20 year olds. That's not really what it's about. And I think the most, the great, the best bath houses are the multi generational where you see the older guy, you see. And unfortunately with code right now you can't have kids in bathhouse. But you go in other cultures and you see kids, you know, you see the whole family and there's not that many places. That's why I think, you know, the company I work for is so interesting. They're not that many places that the kids, the parents and the grandparents all want to go to. They don't want to go to a water park.

[Jen Sullivan]

So you're coming up against that. But something else is the nakedness versus bathing suit conversation. So some of the places you're describing when I've been to bath houses in. Was that Japan? It was like just a bunch of naked people is no big deal.

[Mason Moore]

But it was single sex. But it was. So a lot of cultures.

[Jen Sullivan]

Yes. Multi generational, but single sex. Yes.

[Mason Moore]

So there's several cultures that have that Russian finish. Germany is really the only one they have co ed they call it textile free, which I sort of like that word textile. Instead of new textile free, they have textile free bathing all ages, all sexes, all together. And trust me, is not sexual.

[Jen Sullivan]

It's.

[Mason Moore]

It's actually you feel a little awkward at first and then you get used to it. That's not what's going to happen in the US and if you go, I went to Las Vegas because everybody said, oh, they have the best sort of bathing, the best spas. I thought they were so blamed. It was just, they were, they were all this, they just spent a ton of money on interior decorations. That was the differential is how much real estate they devoted to the locker room and how expensive were the Furnishings. But at the end of the day, it was like a sauna that fit 10 people in a hot tub and a crappy cold plunge. There was no social and it was all single sex. And so, I mean, it works for me if I go with my husband. But for most people that go as a couple, you're completely separated. You don't know when you're finishing. You know, you want to go together. And so I think that's where again, is a huge opportunity. And I think where most spas are sort of missing out is on that social.

[Jen Sullivan]

So the, the American bathhouse, we're seeing it as the future of, if you could say what this country needs, people would be bathed or clothed. Excuse me, it would be textile on, textile on, multi generational. And the communal spaces would be larger. Are we going to have food? It's America. Like, come on.

[Mason Moore]

Yes, I think food is great. I think food is. I mean, that's one of the reasons I like bathhouses. You can go get food after and you can get a drink. You know, at one time I was.

[Jen Sullivan]

Talking, but you know, like, getting into your bathing suit and getting a Big Gulp is a weird concept for most Americans.

[Mason Moore]

I know, but you get used. I mean, we get used to a lot of things. And most people. And if it's a beer or margarita, it makes it a little easier. And to me, there's a broad definition of wellness. I mean, I was talking to this guy Arrow, who runs the Finnish Sauna Society, and I was talking about, well, being and wellness. And he was like, yeah, that's all great. But, you know, after my sauna, I have a beer and a cigar and there is room for that in wellness. A lot of people come into, you know, one of the other things the bathhouse is for people in sobriety. It's a great place to be able to meet people and hang out. That's not centered around drinking. But I also don't think there's anything wrong for the people that want to have a beer after their sauna. You know, that's a very traditional in Finland for them to have a drink after they're done relaxing. And so to me, the space to hang out after the bathhouse, after the bathing experience, the cold, it's all part of the bathhouse. And it's all part of bathing is the hanging out too. Whether it's to lie down and fall asleep on your own or to just talk, you're feeling great. You don't want to hang out after you've gone to Disney World because Your chemicals have been, like, thrown, manipulated, and you've just come off a sugar, caffeine, adrenaline crash. After you've gone in hot and cold or just warm water or hot rooms, your chemicals are balanced, you feel great. It's the perfect time to hang out with people. And again, that's why I think people come back and is then they also sleep better and then they feel better the next day.

[Jen Sullivan]

Yeah, talk to me about that. What is it about, like, I know you're not a scientist, but, like, what is it about being in warm water or alternating warm and cold that, like, what's going on? Why is it so good?

[Mason Moore]

The important thing, a lot of wellness is not necessarily backed up by science. And some things you hear about bathhouses are not packed up, but sauna going in a very hot room. They've done decades and decades of studies. And it has all of these benefits, from cardiovascular to reducing rates of dementia, I mean, cognitive skills, that science is great. I don't think the science is as good on infrared saunas, actually. The science is just starting on cold plunges. But there is also science on just sitting in what I call like a thermal bath, which is warm water. It reduces inflammation. It's sort of. It's the other side of the cold punch. It's great for you, it's great for older people and it's great for young people. And you don't even have to pay attention to the science. Just notice how you sleep and notice how you feel the next day. But there are. When I say the three stool, that's the physical and that's an important part that you're getting those physical benefits that are real and that are backed up by science.

[Jen Sullivan]

I was just thinking about how Americans have taken bathhouse culture and kind of what we've done to it. And I was picturing just like just a hot tub party.

[Mason Moore]

Yes. But that to me, that is important. To me, that is. It doesn't have to be. In Japan, they have onsens, which you go to, but they also have bathing rituals you do at home. There's, like, ways to experience. It's not. We have turned bathing in our homes into a utilitarian thing to see how fast you can get through it. You know, how fast can you do this? Not really about how enjoyable can you make bathing. We're just doing it for hygienic reasons. And so I think again, you know, growing up in Texas, lazy rivers were literally inner tubes in rivers. They weren't in hotels. We would go down rivers. Called it tubing to me, that's bathing. That's being in water, in a social setting and connecting with each other. It's again, I think it's wired into our bodies to want that and seek that out. And we have been doing it for whatever, 10,000 years, I think. I mean, who it's. And again, that's why, to me, it's more than a trend. There's a whole bunch of recent people come, but the reasons they stay are deeply rooted in human needs.

[Jen Sullivan]

Yeah. I'm excited to see how you bring this into American culture as we're winding up here, though, just you personally, because I feel like you are my guru of like. Cause you've been to way more bathhouses than I will ever be. And I've done some traveling and tried different. What have been some of your best and maybe some of your worst experiences in bathhouses?

[Mason Moore]

I went all over, mainly Europe and I went to. But the one I was most excited about was Othership. When I went to Othership in Toronto, because it was just three rooms. It was a room, a social space. It was an event sauna which had like 50 people. Then they had cold plunge you did as a group, and then you went back to the social space. And so again, it's, to me, not the best. It was just. It made me realize what I liked about it was the social aspect that I could do all. And I did in a lot of places that are beautiful. In those original baths in Germany and Baden Baden, it's gorgeous. You go in the hot, you go in the. You go in all these different. And you stay by yourself. You're pretty much by yourself. And it's quiet. It's more like a really fancy spa. And to me, that experience wasn't as powerful and meaningful as the social. And so that's why I think you don't have to go, you know, the most beautiful, probably waals in Germany by Peter Zumthor. It's just gorgeous. But it's not. It's like spiritual in an aesthetic sense. And that's so beautiful. But you're ruining it by being there.

[Jen Sullivan]

The space itself.

[Mason Moore]

The space itself.

[Jen Sullivan]

We could take this whole podcast and just sub in the word church. And I feel like a lot of it would make sense, this whole thing of, like, the place is so beautiful. I'm intimidated, but I'm getting spirituality and community. But there's these preconceived notions of what it should be. It's how a lot of people feel about their, like, religion in a way. I don't Mean to get like high minded about it.

[Mason Moore]

And it doesn't preclude religion. And I think that's what people. You know, that's when I. There was that article about Peter Thiel, I don't know, doing these sort of religious gatherings or something. And I think people are looking and for a lot of people, they don't want necessarily even if they have a religion, they're still looking for that other aspect of spirituality. I don't think it's definitely not a replacement for what religion offers. To me, it's really a compliment. And again, something. And that's why every culture has developed one of these. That's not a coincidence. It's a human need.

[Jen Sullivan]

That's the craziest part. When you look around the world like. Yeah, but I feel like Americans maybe because it's a newer culture in the history of cultures of the world. Like there wasn't like an American way of.

[Mason Moore]

We didn't. I mean there was an indigenous wet lodges, of course, you know, but we never had it.

[Jen Sullivan]

Yeah, not like North America, just like the. Yeah, the country that came about in the 1800s or something.

[Mason Moore]

You know, the Puritan roots. I think again, going back to that sex panic is why we didn't. And it was utilitarian. We were able. We developed bathrooms so we didn't have to have these things. You know, we had bathrooms far faster than other cultures. Other cultures were still using them to also as a source of getting clean.

[Jen Sullivan]

Yeah. And to that point clearly now we know how to sanitize places and we know about. So like that's less of an issue than it ever was.

[Mason Moore]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jen Sullivan]

Don't think you're not going to run up against that. I'm sure, especially after Covid.

[Mason Moore]

Definitely. But a lot of people thought Covid was going to kill this movement because it started before COVID and it's really taken off after Covid because one, relatively speaking, sauna is a really safe place to get away from viruses. But two people became more reprioritized. Their health and the social aspect.

[Jen Sullivan]

Yeah. Really quick. We have a speed round at the end. It's like our five quick questions. Do you have time for it? Five minutes.

[Mason Moore]

Do it.

[Jen Sullivan]

Okay, I know you have to go, but we do this with every guest. Fat mascara 5. Oh, you can't do this cause you're on your phone. I usually ask people, what's the last note they wrote themselves in their notes app.

[Mason Moore]

I can look. Okay, what's the next one?

[Jen Sullivan]

Well, while you're looking for your note, what's the first beauty or grooming product you remember ever using and loving? I don't know. Was it a hair product, a soap? Anything? Like we ask every guest this.

[Mason Moore]

It was a picture of a. Cause I haven't used it. It was a picture of a bridge in West Texas. Is in notes.

[Jen Sullivan]

Oh, in notes. Oh, interesting. Oh, you put pictures in there.

[Mason Moore]

Yeah, I did for a while. The first beauty product, it might have been like an acne cream in the 80s.

[Jen Sullivan]

Okay. Maybe an oxy pad or something.

[Mason Moore]

Yeah.

[Jen Sullivan]

What is a treatment? Beauty spa. Whatever. You would never do.

[Mason Moore]

I mean, I guess I just don't really care about pedicures.

[Jen Sullivan]

Oh, okay.

[Mason Moore]

Yeah.

[Jen Sullivan]

All right. No pedicures for Robbie. What's your favorite snack?

[Mason Moore]

Popcorn.

[Jen Sullivan]

All right. And last question. It's 11am on your day off. What are you doing?

[Mason Moore]

Probably playing with my kids. Taking my kids to soccer.

[Jen Sullivan]

Soccer practice. They have soccer in 11am A true American dad.

[Mason Moore]

I wish it was a bathhouse. I wish I could say it was a bathhouse.

[Jen Sullivan]

Well, this is a trick question because that's also your job. Right?

[Mason Moore]

And that's what I would love to do. Either that or pottery. But usually it's something with my kids.

[Jen Sullivan]

Okay, great. Thank you so much for coming on Fat Mascara giving us bathing culture. We hope you enjoyed the show. It's your reviews and feedback that help us make the podcast even better. Head over to itunes to rate and review us or email your thoughts to infoatmascara.com we also want to answer your.

[Garrett]

Beauty questions and hear what products you love.

[Jen Sullivan]

To share a Razuan product review or.

[Garrett]

To ask a beauty question. Email us at info at Fat Mascara.

[Jen Sullivan]

If you send it as a voice memo file, we can even share your voice on the podcast. You can also do that by leaving us a voice message. Our phone number in the United States is 646-481-8182.

[Garrett]

Thanks so much for listening.

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[Listener]

Will full coverage make me look cakey? Is my undertone neutral or is it cool?

[Jen Sullivan]

We get it.

[Listener]

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[Cara Berry]

Hi, I'm Kara Berry, host of Everyone's Business But Mine. Think of me as your new friend and fellow busybody as I talk about everything under the pop culture sun. From the best way to detect a celebrity breakup or pregnancy to realize recapping your favorite reality TV shows from the Housewives cinematic universe. Welcome to Platteville, Kardashians and so much more. So check out Everyone's Business But Mine. Airing multiple times a week everywhere you listen to podcasts.

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[Mason Moore]

Acast.com.