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Fated Mates - Romance Books for Novel People
07.22: Adriana Herrera on the Power of Historical Romance: When We’re Up Against a Corner, Baby, Let’s Fight.
02:05:50
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- [00:00]
Sarah McLean
The three of us back again, back together again. Las Leonas.
- [00:07]
Jennifer Prokop
I was going to say the three amigos. And then that's the problem.
- [00:11]
Sarah McLean
No, but we have Las Leonas.
- [00:13]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, that's true.
- [00:14]
Adriana Herrera
On day 3048 of January.
- [00:17]
Sarah McLean
Oh, God, it's. It is over officially soon. We have like five hours to go, so if it isn't over, at least we were all together for it.
- [00:29]
Adriana Herrera
Let's not count hours, because the last time I counted hours was when my in laws were over and I told my daughter, it's only eight hours. What could possibly go wrong?
- [00:40]
Sarah McLean
Uh huh. Everyone, you know that voice. You. You know that voice by now. That is the dulcet voice of Adriana Herrera, one of our very, very favorites at this point. Basically just like the third.
- [00:55]
Jennifer Prokop
Our third. Yeah, right, the third. It's Edna and Mr. Impossible and you. Or it's you and me and Sarah. And I think those are the same.
- [01:07]
Adriana Herrera
Faded mace or an adrenal harass sandwich, whatever you want to call it.
- [01:12]
Sarah McLean
And Adriana's with us because we are debunking the myths of historical romance today on Faded Mates. And welcome, everyone, to Faded mates. I'm Sarah McLean. I read romance novels and I write them.
- [01:25]
Jennifer Prokop
I'm Jennifer Prokup, romance reader and editor.
- [01:28]
Sarah McLean
And we are here with Adriana Herrera, whose new book is out. Yeah.
- [01:33]
Jennifer Prokop
And we are gonna. Before we debunk, we are going to bunk in with. With this amazing book that I love so much and is on sale now. It is so good. So, Adrianna, talk to me about why you're still alive, how you wrote this book 700 times, why you're still alive.
- [01:56]
Adriana Herrera
How am I still alive?
- [01:58]
Jennifer Prokop
I think I have at least 23 texts that are like, this book's gonna kill me, but it hasn't, so tell us about it.
- [02:07]
Adriana Herrera
So, yeah, so this book was quite a challenge, as you both know, since you had to pull me off the ledge more than once. As I wrote it and edited it, it was really kind of like the hardest revision I've ever done. I think it's because I was taking on a lot of topics that I didn't get wrong or, you know, mishandle. But I am pretty happy with it. And I hope people, a lot of the readers of this series have been waiting for Apollo's book. And I hope people are happy with the Apollo that I wrote. I am happy with him. Like, even though this book, as Jen said, almost took my life in the end, I am pretty happy with it. Feel like it's. I told my agent yesterday when I was having a nervous breakdown with her on the phone, that at least I finished it how I. How I started it. I wanted to finish it strong. And I feel like I did that. So I am pretty happy with it. I mean, it's, I think, the sexiest book in the series. One of the sexiest books I've written. Apollo is intense. I love. I don't know, I am pretty. I love this book. I think it's. I think it's the best one I've written so far. And I am very glad that I am done with the Laila Ness. I am glad to be done with this summer in Paris because, baby, it's been four years.
- [03:48]
Sarah McLean
You know, it's so funny, I was talking to somebody the other day about the fact that you start a series and you're so excited. And romance series often come in three, and you're like, I know exactly what it's going to look like. Here are the three characters. This is how it's going to go. Everything's going to be great. And then by the time you get to book three, you're like, thank God I never have to come back to these people. And the big problem is that if you ever write a four book series, you are writing the fourth book. And you're like, why? Why have I done this to myself? And then you promise yourself you'll never do it again. And then a decade later you do it again and you're like, wait a second. Mistakes are made.
- [04:30]
Jennifer Prokop
Okay, we're here to talk about Adriana.
- [04:32]
Sarah McLean
No, no, no, but I'm just saying, like, three. Three books are tricky. Like, it is you. By the time you get to the end, you are often, like, ready to say goodbye. But you've also, like, leveled up, leveled up, leveled up. And now you've told this, like, big story that you've been leading up to.
- [04:47]
Adriana Herrera
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think part of me, I wanted to challenge myself to see if I could write something that was, like, almost on the edge of historical fiction, where I could really do, like, really include a lot of history, but also still manage to deliver on, like, the conventions and the expectations of a historical romance reader in terms of, like, the tension and the trappings of, like, the balls and the carriages and, like, all the stuff that you expect as a. And, you know, it was challenging.
- [05:23]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, well, and obviously we are not the only ones who think it's great because Amazon picked it as one of its best romances of February. So that is like, I think we are not alone. Right, everyone. We all know that it's brilliant, right? It got a Kirkus star. Correct.
- [05:41]
Adriana Herrera
And sure did. I. I'm happy with. I mean, I'm happy with it. I. I'm just and happy Earth even that to be ready to do other things.
- [05:50]
Jennifer Prokop
Okay. Yes.
- [05:51]
Adriana Herrera
I wish it was the kind of author who could write the same thing, but different. It is so much. I think it's like a great thing to be if you are that author. Don't. Don't ever change.
- [06:03]
Sarah McLean
Don't try. Don't seek out another path. That is the path.
- [06:07]
Adriana Herrera
I am not that kind of person. I need to reinvent the wheel every time. Which feels tiring. But.
- [06:13]
Jennifer Prokop
Well, and I mean, you really wrote. I mean, I remember when you were writing the first book and it was. You were like, I've never written historical before. So this is. Right. So to have it, this third book be such a triumph because I really do think it is all the things that you mentioned. And so I want you to talk about writing like a sort of how you got to Apollo and Aurora. And then also, like, because this is a book that is not just finishing up a series. Like, it is really out there hunting big game in terms of which is like, not a phrase we've used for a minute on this podcast, which is really what we have. You know, we only say that about books that are really like, I have a big story that I'm gonna tell through these characters. And it is, you know, you mentioned the history and like, one of the things we'll talk about later is like, a lot of people are like, I don't wanna learn what I'm reading. But like, the history in this book is really the history of conception, like, of contraception, the history of like, women's health care, specifically in. Not just in Latin America, but in Europe. And it was. I. And I am not exaggerating a fascinating. I was fascinated by the reading of this book and I know how much research you did for it. But like. And of course, what a. What a time to have written such a book. Right?
- [07:40]
Adriana Herrera
Yes. I mean, it's funny because just before we started this to record this, I was like, online. And that's very. A fraught thing to be doing in January of 2020. And I just saw someone that I follow who is a physician, say that the page on the CDC that had that shared knowledge about contraception methods is down, it's gone dark. And that they, they knew like doctors had gotten like, word that this was going to happen and that, you know, it's now gone. And so within that context, I feel like this is kind of like where I hoped we wouldn't be when this book came out. Like, I hope that when this book came out and as I was writing it, and I always intended for Aurora's book to have some kind of content around the fight for reproductive rights. And when I conceptualized it, we still.
- [08:49]
Sarah McLean
Have Roe v. Wade, but the world.
- [08:52]
Adriana Herrera
Like the Dominican Republic, where I'm from, it's. It's still not legal to receive an abortion. And so, like, there was a. There's still a lot of story to tell in terms of the fight for reproductive justice for women globally. And I'm trying. I tried to write a series that was not so, you know, centered around America, that it felt a little bit more like it was like, kind of like more world history. So. So in that sense, um, you know, as I wrote it, I was hoping, like, knowing, like, once Roe v. Wade fell, then I really was like, I need to go hard. And I thought. And Sarah, we all talk about this. Like, we thought by the time this book comes out, there's going to be a lot more.
- [09:38]
Sarah McLean
Yeah, we'll have all gone hard.
- [09:41]
Adriana Herrera
We will have all, like, there'll be more books like this where there's, like, a real conversation about, like, what women are experiencing and, like, how we fight for our rights to be returned to us. Right. So that didn't happen. Like, I thought so many things in romance don't happen. Like, I think. But I really wanted to honor that. That fight. But, like, really try to, like, remind myself as I was writing that, like, we've been here before and, like, it's a time to be brave. Right. And, like, if romance is where women go to for comfort, we can't hide from the truth of what's happening to us. Like, we can't hide in romance. We have to find strength in it. And that is what I try to do with this book. Like, I. I could have just written a book about carriages and ballrooms, which, you know, is lovely to read, but it's not the time for that. That's not what I came to do in romance. Like, I came to. To write about the women that, like, raised me and write about the type of woman that I want to be in the world. Like, when. Like, when we're up against the corner, baby. Like, let's fight.
- [10:58]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [10:59]
Sarah McLean
And it's interesting that you say that, because I don't think that. I think before this series, right, you wrote the Dreamers series, which was. Mm. And then You've written a lot of other things, right? You were, you're writing a. You wrote a contemporary series, you know, in concert with this at the beginning you've written category. You've written all sorts, all over the place, all sorts of things. But you chose historical for this story. Yes, and I think that's part of why it is. So I think one of the things that, that I am so grateful for with this book and with your coming to Historical is that you have always struck me as a person who understands the work of historical within the context of the work of romance writ large. Because I do think there are things that historical can do that contemporary can't do in the same way. So can you talk about why historical was the space for these women?
- [12:03]
Adriana Herrera
I mean, one, I think it's important, like, I think it's important to just like, honor the, like, what happened before, right. Like the women who did have to have that fight. It feels a little bit more organic even though, like, it almost feels a little counterintuitive these days. Like, I like, it was a little more nuanced even two years ago to use historical as like a vessel for talking about current issues. Now it feels almost like historical is like. And like I need a softer landing because talking about like the world right now is like really hard, right? So, but, but it felt like it feels organic because it's something that is not like, to the reader, it would feel natural and make sense that you would have a book where a woman is like, up against, right? Like a woman is thriving, fighting. And it's always been that place in romance where like a lot of the conversations about women's autonomy, women's agency, power dynamics have been like. It's almost like the obvious thing to take on is in Historical are these like, topics and these themes. And so a, like, for that reason, it just feels like the natural place to explore these things. And for me, specifically, because I'm writing about women of color, specifically Latina women who are black, who are like on the move. And there's just not like, there's no place in the genre really where we're written in that way. Not like now Liana has her series, but like Spanish speaking women from, you know, the colonized Americas were not present in Historical. So I had to kind of like really create a space for them. And it's like almost like a callback to me of like, there's so much in the genre that talks about the suffragists and like the women who were like, I mean, there's like a rich, a rich like library of that kind of book in historical, even though, you know, people kind of dismiss it as being outdated. But the reality is that there's a lot of people that have been working for a long time to make historical a place where you can find that kind of book. And I just wanted to like, make sure that like, the women from Latin America who were doing all of that were also present.
- [14:52]
Jennifer Prokop
This week's episode of Faded Mates is brought to you by 1001 Dark Knights, publishers of from Friends to Forever, a Love Grows collection.
- [15:03]
Sarah McLean
You know, I love a bind up of novellas from multiple authors and I love it when they're connected with a theme. 1001 Dark Nights has been doing this for a little while and they've got one out right now. That is for everyone who wishes that we talked more about Friends to Lovers books here at Fated Mates. As we know, Friends to Lovers is like usually just like a warm hug of a romance. Right? Like it's people who already care about each other are just falling deeply, deeply in love. And truly, what 1001 Dark Knights has done here is collected four stories from four Just Cracker Jack romance novelists. You're gonna get the Gravedigger's Son by Dorinda Jones, Memories of youf by Jay Kenner, More than Possess yous by Shayla Black and Securing Jane by Susan Stoker. And this is gonna give you every one of those like happy Friends to Lovers, romance feels, but also a taste of four authors, some of whom you might never have read before. So the best thing about these books is that find somebody new to immediately go and glom a backlist from.
- [16:16]
Jennifer Prokop
So if you love Friends to Lovers, then you should check out From Friends to Forever. It is available in print or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited. And if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to 1001 Dark Nights for sponsoring this week's episode. And like you said, like, when you were writing the book, you didn't know where we would be right now. No. But I do think that there is a way in which a lot of women in particular we know are very much frozen by how to make the world better. Right. Like white. White women, especially, like I'll speak for my people were just like, you know, so helpless. I don't know. Right. This seems bad. I guess I'll just get on my keyboard and type things and I think like one of the things that I find really powerful about historical romance is like a. As a literal blueprint for how to fight. Right. Like you. I'm like, okay, we are backed into a corner now. I'm not gonna lay down here. How are we gonna fight or what are we gonna fight for? And one of the things, for me, that's really powerful about Auroras background is how much of her commitment to medicine is really driven by her own experiences like, that she went through as a teenager. And this is something I have, like, talked to my husband about. My husband does medical school admissions. And I remember at one point, like, this is like, kind of way back when he first started, he was like, you know, it's really interesting. Like, when I interview kids, like, they all have, like, you know, kind of like, I hear a lot, like, sort of a similar story kind of like, all the time. And I was like, well, isn't that. Because, like, maybe there's a certain set of experiences that if people have them, it opens up the door to like, I want to be a doctor. Right. And I think that given her experiences, but also, like, just becoming a doctor was a fight for her. And yet this is something that she is, you know, extremely extreme. I mean, like, I love her. I would want a doctor to care for me and care about me the way she cares about her patients.
- [18:43]
Adriana Herrera
Well, thank you. Me too. Like, wouldn't that be nice? I mean, I think for me, like, one of the things for, like, with Apollo specifically, because I really was trying to write a. I mean, that's the kind of hero I write. Like, I need to write a man who can really see the woman that he's with and see the value and what she wants or what she's doing and just, like, go all in for her. And I think even for Apollo, when the beginning was just like, well, now I'm Duke and I just kind of want to stick it to them. And that's what I'll do. I'll just. Your black and breathing and just driving them crazy and. And doing good stuff on the side, but really just being here, black and breathing and making them crazy. And so, like, because his mom died, like, again, to me, it's like the piece of. In this world that we're in right now. And I really thought about that a lot. Like, the kind of man that is in your life, like, if you have a man in your life who doesn't, like, see the value in women being okay, then you're sleeping with the enemy. You have to, like, really have men who are willing to be brave too. Because the patriarchy is so comfortable. Being a man is easy as fuck out here. Even the ones that are upset about stuff, like, they have to be brave. They have to be willing to say, like, I'm going to. I might lose the things that I have and my comfort and my safety in some ways to make life safe. And I think.
- [20:31]
Jennifer Prokop
Like.
- [20:32]
Adriana Herrera
I don't know, Like, I think those are all the things that I feel very much in my life right now. And I think just unfortunately.
- [20:41]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [20:42]
Adriana Herrera
They were also the things, like, the themes that were coming up in that book. Yeah. I mean, I honestly, like, I hoped more than anything that when this book came out, the conversations that I was having were like, phew, look what we almost avoided. Like, okay, like, we've had a couple of losses in the last few years, but, like, we can get it back.
- [21:03]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. No, right now.
- [21:05]
Adriana Herrera
And. And now it feels like it's. It's very, like.
- [21:11]
Jennifer Prokop
No, it's terrifying.
- [21:12]
Adriana Herrera
Yeah. Like, we're. You know, this is. This is like, we're very close to, like, Comstock laws are not far off.
- [21:21]
Sarah McLean
Well, the Comstock laws are still in the books.
- [21:24]
Adriana Herrera
Yeah. And, like, just today, like, people are trying to, like. I mean, again, like, not to, like, doom and gloom it, but, like, I just. To me, this whole series has. Has been really important. A. For to write women who have found partners who really love them and who, like, see the value of their dreams and want to help them pursue them, but also, like, things that are important to me as a feminist and a woman. And I have always thought that was, like, the job of romance.
- [21:59]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, me too. Silly me. I have a question for you, actually. What you said just made me think of something. Before we actually say that, can I tell you, I heard some. I saw on social media today that somebody was calling this. They were talking about, like, reconstruction, and they're calling, like, what we're going through now deconstruction. And I was like, that's a little too on the nose. So, anyway, here's my. Okay, I have a question for you. Okay. So I think of myself as a feminist, but I also think that my feminist, like, knowledge. My knowledge of feminism is. Is. Is not very. It's. I think it's just patchy. I don't think I'm, like, an idiot. But your knowledge of feminism is. Is so. Is so impressive to me. Like, I really am always like, well, Adriana would know. So can I. Can we have maybe a minute where we talk about, like, I think a really common thing. It used to be really Easy to say is that, like, romance is all. All romance is feminist. And I think some of us, I. I know I found solace in the idea that just like, back when we would say, like, it's by women and for women, like some. A genre that. That, like, oh, as a whole. Right. Talks about the interests of women and marginalized people is like, feminist in some. Like. Right. And it's in some way. But I don't think I'm comfortable saying that anymore. Right. So when you think of, like, feminism and romance or feminism in general, what do you think romance has to do to earn the label of feminism? And. And, like, have that be an accurate one. And Sarah, you can answer this too, because you also know a lot about feminism, obviously.
- [23:45]
Adriana Herrera
I mean, I think you have to think about equity. Like, you have to think about power dynamics. You have to think about, like, is this about her, the soft life, or is it about, like, proximity to power? And, you know, I think. I don't think all romance is feminist. I think in this day and age, you have to work at it to make it be feminist, actually, because I think there is a lot of, like. I mean, you can see it now, like, we thought we had won all the big fights. And the reality is, is that there's like 53% of the white women in this country are willing to take a chance on a crazy man. Can I say that on this podcast?
- [24:40]
Jennifer Prokop
You can, absolutely.
- [24:44]
Sarah McLean
Have you listened to this podcast?
- [24:47]
Adriana Herrera
Well, a felon. A felon, like a person who has been, you know, brought charges on him for assaulting women, take chance on him. And so to me, it's. And like, a lot of those women probably read romance, you know, and so I think part of it is, like, the reality is that. No, like, because. Because just. Because if the romance that you're reading is a romance where the only person that gains freedom and comfort is the heroine, and that's the only thing that matters in that book, that it's actually not feminist. Because feminism is about freedom and justice for everyone. And if that's not what says she at the end of the book, if the world. The world is not better, not just her life, the world that she be that began in her book isn't better, her community isn't better, her worldview isn't bigger, then it's not a feminist. I'm sorry. Like, it's just not. I mean, she can be happy, right? Sure.
- [25:52]
Jennifer Prokop
But that's.
- [25:53]
Sarah McLean
Sure.
- [25:53]
Adriana Herrera
So.
- [25:54]
Sarah McLean
But it's really interesting to me because I think. I mean, I obviously came from the school of, like, romance felt feminist in its DNA. And I think part of why a lot of white women especially felt this way in the second wave was because it was the first time they had ever seen a product that was designed with them as the main consumer, right? So, like, there's capitalism. Like, there's all sorts of stuff wrapped up in this, right? Like, this is a complex conversation. But I think that for. At its, like, basic level, for a lot of white women, like, they picked up Gentle Rogue and they saw a. A woman going forth for, like, what she wanted in a way that they'd never seen anything like that before. And so I think the aspirational idea that, like, we are romance is feminist is in the hope that, like, the women who read about Georgina Anderson turned into women like us who, like, thought of themselves as being able to go forth and make the world better, like, and be bigger and be bolder and change things. Right? And stand up. But I think that was 50 years ago, and now we are. That's not enough. And I fear that for a lot of us in the industry, we are resting on the laurels of those, ironically, like, because I think we're also going to get into. A lot of young readers are like, what the fuck? These are not laurels. Right? And I. And I acknowledge that. But, like, we're resting on that idea that, like, the female gaze made the product feminist, and therefore we are all feminist. But it really is starting to. I don't know if it's that I am becoming more progressive or that the genre is becoming more regressive.
- [27:59]
Jennifer Prokop
I think it's that one, if I.
- [28:00]
Sarah McLean
Could be honest, but I don't know, like.
- [28:02]
Adriana Herrera
Or both, I think maybe a little more conservative. And, like, we don't. Because I think part of it, too. And I. And I remember having this number when I. Back when I remember when I was working in Ithaca, a lot of my. The people under my supervision were women who had just finished college. They were, like, in their early 20s. And I was like, you know, their feminism.
- [28:24]
Jennifer Prokop
Auntie, you're my feminism. Auntie.
- [28:27]
Sarah McLean
Introduce you to bell hooks.
- [28:31]
Adriana Herrera
And the idea that, like, I think I was thinking about this today. I think we're equating feminism with, like, sexual freedom, which is an important component. And I think that is. I love that the books are sexier and they're hotter, but even, like, how are they hotter is an important question. And. And, like, okay, the sex is really hot and really explosive in this book, but what are the conversations happening around power and what are the dynamics in that book and is it like, are the books more conservative but the sex hotter? Because you could still have a lot of sex and still have pretty patriarchal ideas that you're taking on. So again, I think the world's complicated.
- [29:24]
Sarah McLean
This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Jen Bouchard, author of Considering.
- [29:30]
Jennifer Prokop
Us so Private Chef Devin Page is a little bit messy. Sarah, she has had an affair that has caused her to. Caused a scandal. And she essentially only has one client left in Boston. And she cannot really make a living off of a professional basketball player who just likes cookies. And so she has no other choice but take to take a job at a boarding school in New Hampshire. And what, what she's going to be doing is leading their dining services. But she is shocked to discover that also on staff is Kyle Holling. And she and Kyle had a one night stand essentially the night before they all each went off to their respective colleges 15 years ago. And she's interested in him, but she also is like, hyper aware of like, she's messed up. And they're in the fishbowl of this like, boarding school with like a underground newspaper and you know, all. Everybody, it just seems like, is watching them. So she decides, like, she cannot take this. She is going to head out to Los Angeles. There's like another guy she's maybe interested in out there, only Kyle is going to end up road tripping with her. And so maybe it is on this trip when it's just the two of them that Devin and Kyle can figure out if 15 years is too late to rekindle a one night stand.
- [30:51]
Sarah McLean
Wow. Well, if you love a forced proximity, Friends to lovers, one that got away story, this one sounds like it's perfect for you. You can find Considering Us right now in print, ebook, audiobook, or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited, if your podcasting app supports it. You can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. And thanks to Jen Bouchard for sponsoring this week's episode. A lot of the times when feminism comes up as a word in these conversations, there's this sort of defensiveness that comes from segments of us, right, that sort of feels like, well, we solved feminism. Like, feminism is here. So like, now we can do whatever we want. Because we all know, right, we all, we all understand that, like, what this is is just like fantasy or it's just this idea that. And I, and I, I know everybody out there is like, Sarah's talking about dark romance and maybe I Am a little bit. But I'm also talking about, like, these heroes who, like, have never done a bad thing. They've never thought a bad thought. They've never. They've never misstepped. They've never had to learn about how to be about equity, about. About any of this stuff. They are just, like, perfect creatures set up.
- [32:18]
Adriana Herrera
Or, like, the implication is. I mean, to me, part of it is this. Like, I love a therapized hero.
- [32:23]
Sarah McLean
Yeah, but they're not perfect, Adriana.
- [32:26]
Adriana Herrera
But they're not perfect. And part of what I think is we deserve is to see a man grow on the page and come against and see the realities of our lives. Right? And, like, that, I think, is something like. I mean, just thinking about, like, Apollo and Aurora, right? Like, Apollo is who he is, and, like, someone that in the beginning thinks, you know, like, I'm just, like, irreverent and I can do whatever I want. And then he. More and more, he begins to see how little. Like, there's a line in the book where he's like, well, you know, my dad hurt me, so I basically destroyed him in his life. And her dad hurt her, and she's saving people.
- [33:12]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, right. Correct.
- [33:14]
Adriana Herrera
And so, like, the difference is that, like, if you don't have a man that, like, that man needs to have that real. Like, I feel like part of what we do as romance novelists is have a man start there and come to that realization on the page. Like, I think part of the arc.
- [33:33]
Sarah McLean
I guess, to your point, though, and I think this is. This is something I want to say out loud, because I feel like the thing that I have learned. I've learned so much from you, Adriana. But the thing that I think about all the time that I've learned from you about the genre is we gave a talk at Yale. What was that? Last year? And it was like a kind of intro to the romance genre, right? Like, what is romance? And we were talking about the bones of it and all the pieces and the character and the conflict and the voice and the world building and all the pieces. And you were like, but we also have to talk about theme, right? Like, sitting down and starting from a place of, I'm going to tell a story that does something, right? And I think for many of us as writers, like, the theme comes later. Like, you get to the end of the story and you say, oh, I'm telling a story about whatever I'm telling a story about. Or maybe we don't get there at all, right? Like, we've Just told this story and it makes us feel good, and that's that. But like, your work, capital W in romance, both on the page and like with me, with other people who are writers in the genre, is to say, like, but what if we are doing something from the jump? What if we are telling a story about reproductive justice from the jump? And I think that's what you have done for a generation of romance writers.
- [35:09]
Adriana Herrera
Oh, that feels like a lot.
- [35:11]
Sarah McLean
But I mean, I think it's true because Jen and I talked to a million trillion women who. And men who have written in this genre from the beginning. And I don't think anybody has said that.
- [35:22]
Jennifer Prokop
Kate. Kate does. Kate starts from.
- [35:25]
Sarah McLean
I'm not talking about Kate. I'm talking about trailblazers. Like, I'm talking about.
- [35:29]
Jennifer Prokop
Right, that's what I'm saying. Like, right. Like the people who write and that's. I mean, I was saying, like, starting from Kennedy Ryan, right, Starting from trope versus starting from theme is going to get you to an incredibly different place because you're. You're really thinking about what I mean every. I live a small life, and I don't mean that I. But my life. But. And I guess what I'm trying to say is, like, you can have a small life bait, a purposeful one. And I think that when you start from theme, that's what you are. Are doing.
- [36:02]
Sarah McLean
I also would say to everybody listening, like, some. Some people get to theme in a different way. They don't start with theme, but they get there in the end. Yes, you don't have to start there, but I do think that choosing to start there is a modern construct, I think, for historical.
- [36:22]
Adriana Herrera
It's almost at this point, I think, because why are you going into historical these days, right? Like, what. What. What are we. What are we going into. Into the past for if not to say something? And so, I mean. And not everybody has to say something again. But I think if you are, if you want that feminism badge, you don't need to have it. But if you do want it, if you do, if you do think that you are someone that's writing under that, like, with that heritage of feminism as like a value. Like, I've always said, like, if I don't have a religion, but if I had one, it would be feminism them. Like, I think you then do have to say, like, what am I saying here? Like, what am I saying? What am I after?
- [37:14]
Sarah McLean
And it's getting harder. Like, it's getting harder because in the early days of the genre, you could Just write a suffragette.
- [37:22]
Adriana Herrera
Correct. Or an abolitionist.
- [37:24]
Sarah McLean
Right, or an abolitionist. Or you could write, like, a duke who, like, got all of his money but, like, treated his servants very well. Right. Like, and you could sort of wave away.
- [37:37]
Adriana Herrera
The.
- [37:38]
Sarah McLean
The rest of it.
- [37:39]
Jennifer Prokop
But.
- [37:39]
Sarah McLean
And that worked because it was shorthand for a different kind of work. Now we're in a place, though, where the work has. Is more difficult.
- [37:49]
Adriana Herrera
Yeah, I mean, I think it's more difficult. I think, you know, having heroine who is also an aristocrat and who is white and benefits from the privilege of wealth and power, and it's complicit and oppression is happening. Like, it's not enough that she has, like. Like, like she goes out and gives baskets to the poor. Like, it's just not enough. It's. It's not enough that she's, like, sharing information with her friends about, you know, how not to get pregnant. Like, I think it's, like, more. More than that. Like, I think, again, if you're trying to make it feminist, like, you don't have to do it like that.
- [38:33]
Sarah McLean
No, that's the thing is, like, this isn't a directive to go out and be right. Feminist text. But be careful about claiming the mantle in 2025 because it's. It's a. It's a more serious weight now by virtue of what we are living in.
- [38:51]
Adriana Herrera
You have to meet as artists, as authors who are writing from feminist valleys. We have to meet the moment. That's how I feel. You have to meet the moment that you are in. And the moment that we are in is not a moment to hide from the realities of our life. And still, again and hopeful. It's not like Apollo and Aurora are not having sex every time.
- [39:20]
Jennifer Prokop
Every other chapter.
- [39:23]
Adriana Herrera
Sexy book. They have a happy ending. A happy ending in community. They, you know, like, it's. It's like I felt like, you know, I try to make it as triumphant as possible. Like, an ending with hope, with, like, the women getting what they wanted and still, like, I had to have those place the realities and, like, just how badass are. Like, to me, like, that's part of it. Like, you know, there were, like, anarchist women in Argentina 100 years ago that were being like, styles because they were like, what husbands? And, like, we're starting a union and we're like, bombing this factory that's exploiting workers. Not that I'm advising anybody to bomb a factory, but, like, what I'm saying is 100 years ago, women were being brave and amazing.
- [40:12]
Jennifer Prokop
So you can be brave and amazing. Now, like, to me, right, like, that's that, that is why, like, when a historical romance is really firing, it makes me feel like if I, with all the tools I have with the right, like, if they can do it, then with like, you can print shit in your house, right? Then what am I then? You know what I mean? Like, and I need, Listen, you guys. I need to practice being brave, right? This is not innate in me, in my character. And so I think that that is part of the reason why, like, historical romance, like, really calls to me. Like, these are women who arguably had a lot of. Everything was worse, right? There are freedoms I have that they do not have there. And that has led. Even if they take those freedoms from me, they cannot change the way I think, right? And that is, I think, part of why I'm so fascinated by again, like, you know, I mean, Apollo is great in this book, but like, I really also, like, I just love Aurora so much, right? Because here is a woman who is like, I've had a lot of shit happen to me. I've had a lot of people tell me I can't do what I'm gonna do. I've had my family try to fence me in. And she is just, just not going to put up with any of that shit. And I, I, I love her. I love her so much.
- [41:45]
Adriana Herrera
Sorry. I love her too. Yeah. I mean, I just feel like we all need to be braver right now. And like, I think this genre has the power to do so much and, and I feel like it's like. And we've been having this conversation, but I know we're going to have later about how like, historical perhaps is like, just like, you know, like, kind of like on its like Twilight, let's say, in terms of like, reader interest. And I wonder if part of it is because, like, because of so many conversations like this, like in the last 10, even earlier, like, I feel like mid-2015, like, you were doing that, Sarah, you know, Joanna was doing it. Even Sherry Thomas was doing, like, really? K.J. charles were like, writing romances in historical that were like, grappling with class difference. We're grappling with like, the inconsistencies of the aristocracy. We're trying to have more diversity in there. And like, I think that does challenge the reader in ways that they're not used to. Like, that muscle is not developed in the reader to tolerate, like, reading things that make them feel a certain way. And I, and I wonder if that is part of what in the end, like, maybe making historical A little bit more historically accurate or self aware is where the reader kind of felt like, I lost the fantasy, but at the same time, like, can't the fantasy be we deal with these difficult things and still have a happy ending.
- [43:28]
Jennifer Prokop
This week's episode of Fated Mates is brought to you by Soph Lark, author of Kingmakers Year One.
- [43:35]
Sarah McLean
Okay, so this is the first in Sophie's Kingmaker series, which is hugely popular, and it follows the students of Kingmakers, a ruthless mafia university where.
- [43:48]
Jennifer Prokop
I love it.
- [43:49]
Sarah McLean
Offspring of the world's most feared families come to, like, master influence and intimidation and, I don't know, like, learn to make a great red sauce. This particular book, it follows Leo and Anna, who are both. They arrive, they are childhood best friends, and they arrive at Kingmakers for a really, like, tough time. Leo maybe didn't have to come, but Anna definitely did. Her family was like, you gotta go. And Leo has come to, like, make sure she's safe. In this world where, like, everything is a weapon and you can't trust anybody and there's this big question of, like, will everybody be strong enough to survive? Of course. So what begins as this sort of like, you and me against the world romance morphs into something very different and very dark when Dean Yennen, a bratfoot heir and cousin to Leo, turns up with like, a mega vendetta against him, instantly discovers that Anna is the way to punish him, and then aims directly for Anna. Of course, like, Dean falls in love with her, accepts. Is it really love? It's probably more like obsession. And Anna's trapped between the two of them for a little while. But the truth is, like, only one of these guys is her true soulmate. And what you're gonna get here is all the, like, delicious, dark juiciness that Sophie Lark delivers.
- [45:18]
Jennifer Prokop
Okay, so if you are interested in reading Kingmakers Year one, it is available in print or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited. And if you're still podcasting, app supports it. You can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Sophie Lark for sponsoring this week's episode.
- [45:39]
Sarah McLean
A few like a month ago or six weeks ago. Alexandria Bellefleur, who we've talked about on the podcast, writes queer contemporary romances, but is a historical reader asked in response to the Kind of Kerfuffle online about historical dying. And we should probably talk a little bit about is historical dying and, like, why people are saying that too. I think, I think it's worth us sort of bringing everybody up to speed because I do Think like there are a lot of whispers around and nobody. Everybody's sort of sub tweeting or whatever that is called on threads. But in response to that, Alexandria built a Google Doc, a survey, and put it out to her readers. And. And recognizing, like Alexandria writes queer romance, she writes romance for that tends to be sort of read by a younger, newer kind of romance reader. And she said, do you read historicals? If no, why essentially, were the questions in this survey? And then she was very generous because she gave us the results and said. Because I said, well, could we do an episode on it? And she was like, sure, enjoy yourself. So I guess before we even start, I just want to say we'll put links to Alexandria's books in show notes. I've talked about Alexandria's books on the podcast before, but go support her because this is a very cool thing that she did for us anyway. Is historical dying? I feel like there is something definitely going on with historical, and it's impossible for us not to acknowledge that as a genre. Certainly in traditional romance, something is up.
- [47:24]
Jennifer Prokop
Traditionally published.
- [47:25]
Sarah McLean
I'm sorry, traditionally published romance, something is up. At the publishing houses, there are very, very few and growing fewer historical careers and historical books. And we're going to talk about a few of them, I'm sure, as we, as we talk, as we talk today. But a lot of people are pivoting and a lot of people are not having their contracts renewed. And a lot of publishing houses are just throwing up their hands and saying, we don't know how to make it work. I don't think it's dying, but I think whatever is about to happen is going to happen probably on the indie side.
- [48:10]
Adriana Herrera
Is she dying or are they killing her?
- [48:13]
Sarah McLean
Exactly. I mean, there are a lot of things at play here, right? Like mass market, the small trim size, you can't find that on bookshelves anymore. Like in. In stores, the covers never. While all the other genres, subgenres, the covers were evolving, they did not evolve in historicals at all. We knew kind of right away that that illustrated covers weren't going to necessarily change the game in historical the way that they did in contemporary. But the houses didn't put energy behind figuring out what a new historical cover would look like. Now it feels like this month we're starting to see a few. Hey, maybe this will works. And then there is the kind of believing the myth that is happening too. I think a lot of young people at publishing houses are believing the loud voices online saying historical is old, historical is boring, historical is, you Know, racist, historical is all of these things that in. In some cases it is, but that's not special to historical one.
- [49:29]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. I was like that. Yeah.
- [49:31]
Sarah McLean
And. And I think that they're, you know, I think there's so much. I don't know, I can't even think of what the other things are that are. That are killing it, but it feels like a lot of things are killing it.
- [49:41]
Adriana Herrera
Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, I was thinking this today, like, in terms of, like, well, I don't want to read about rich people, but it's a billionaire romance is more popular than ever. You know, like, can you write an ethical billionaire romance in the age of.
- [49:57]
Sarah McLean
Right.
- [49:58]
Adriana Herrera
The role of.
- [49:59]
Sarah McLean
I was gonna say. And then there's the Adrianna's point. And I mean, we've all said it in different ways, but like, the rise of fantasy should deliver us a more a larger interest in historicals. But it doesn't seem to be doing that. Bridgerton should have delivered readers to historicals, but didn't seem to do that. And so I think, yeah. Is she dying or are they killing us?
- [50:25]
Adriana Herrera
Are they killing. I mean, part of it to me, I think is also like the huge influx of new readers that have come into romance. Bigger than. And I've been around as a reader for a very long time. All of us have. And Sarah, you've been around as a writer for.
- [50:41]
Sarah McLean
I'm a crone. I'm a crone.
- [50:43]
Adriana Herrera
I'm in it. And within that time, like, I think the last big influx that I saw was 2012, 50 Shades of Gray, with the advent of the ebook and Amazon Kindle, like, truly brought in a massive influx of people and essentially created the billionaires subgenre, which is still thriving. And so like. And that. And again, I feel like that. But at that time, I think historical was still like in a strong place. And I feel like in this new wave of like the book talk wave, the pandemic wave, contemporary was what was on the rise. And then, you know, Sarah James, I mean, I do believe that romantasy is like the sub genre that Sarah J. Maas built.
- [51:38]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [51:38]
Sarah McLean
I think a huge historical reader, by the way.
- [51:41]
Adriana Herrera
Yes.
- [51:42]
Sarah McLean
I mean, who screams about them all the time.
- [51:45]
Adriana Herrera
It's in the bones of how she.
- [51:48]
Sarah McLean
I mean, Leigh Bardugo, a huge historical reader. Like so many of these big series.
- [51:54]
Adriana Herrera
Her historical heroes are historical romance heroes. Like, yeah, it's in like the water that. But. But again, like 50 shades of gray created billionaires. Billionaire romance. I think Acotar has brought in this new subgenre, that's romance, that's super strong. And I think that reader could eventually make its way to.
- [52:18]
Sarah McLean
But they have to exist for them to get there.
- [52:20]
Adriana Herrera
But they have to exist to get there because they can get a place where they're going to release, you know, the raven elves or the wallflowers. But they need stuff that's been written the last five years first.
- [52:31]
Sarah McLean
And that's fundamentally the issue. Right. Like, I think. And I'm not gonna. I'll. I'll just. I'll name it. The lions of the historical genre largely are not writing, you know, and I think, and I include in that, like the most recent kind of crop of bestseller historical romance writers are not writing. Tessa Dare hasn't written in five years. Lisa Klepus is notoriously slow. Julia Quinn hasn't written a new Bridgerton book in X number of years in many years. And so I think, you know, I took a break. Like, there are a number of people who have not been sort of building the genre the way. But you also can't rely on five names, right, to keep a genre.
- [53:22]
Adriana Herrera
And part of, I think what's happened because of the way the industry's moving is that like that mid list, which was really what shored up the genre because you had Loretta, right? You know, Lorraine Heath, you had Loretta Chase, who was like, you know, Laura Scandal. So I don't even know if I could say. I mean, I don't know, she's.
- [53:47]
Sarah McLean
She's also a slow writer. So.
- [53:48]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, right.
- [53:49]
Adriana Herrera
But you have like these, like, you have Sophie Jordan, you have like all these authors. Eva Lee, you had Megan France, I mean, you had Harper St. George, Avon.
- [54:01]
Sarah McLean
List, Joanna Shoes, Joanna Shoop.
- [54:05]
Adriana Herrera
So many women. I mean, my goodness, like, Beverly Jenkins is still writing romance, you know, And I think, like, you had this very robust historical catalog that if you read, if you happen to be blessed and finding Devil Winter while you're out, you know, with your granny at the library sale. And then, you know, you, like, come in.
- [54:35]
Sarah McLean
The water is fine.
- [54:37]
Adriana Herrera
300 books in six months. Like a lot of us do, like, you. You'll make yourself. You'll make your way through that entire backlist and then you'll. The backlist of another. And I think part of what is happening is that there's like, where do they go? There's Evie Dunmore, who's, you know, who came in in the last few years.
- [54:56]
Jennifer Prokop
Well, or you have to be in the Amazon ecosystem and reading Kindle Unlimited and be able to like, find. Be able to like sort of wade your way through the discoverability problem. Right. That really faces that. And if you are not a person who has historical romance reading friends, then your discoverability problems are even more intense. Right?
- [55:22]
Adriana Herrera
Yeah.
- [55:23]
Sarah McLean
I mean especially because the. I will say like what I said from the beginning, it's going to live in indie. And the reason why I say that is because I mean it's. There are so many names I have never heard before in Indy. Like when I. We're, you know, next week everybody spoiler. But next week is. Is another historical episode and. And we've been prepping for it and I mean I downloaded 30 something books to my Kindle of and I. My only goal was people I'd never heard of.
- [55:54]
Jennifer Prokop
We've never mentioned it. Right. We've never meant. Yeah. Next week will be historical romances where we've never like new. New to us historical authors. Right.
- [56:03]
Sarah McLean
So like there are so many and like listen, I'm not going to talk about all 30 of them and for reasons but like I will like there are. There's so much going on there that I think like we're in this like nascent kind of stage of like we are going the. The genre is shifting massively. But that is not to say that there are not historicals that I think a new reader who is coming through Alexandra Bella Flor's recommendations wouldn't absolutely love already.
- [56:36]
Adriana Herrera
Oh, 100%. Yeah. I mean, I mean and there are like, you know, TJ Alexander has a book coming out in a couple of months. Like KJ Charles is writing amazing historical romance. I think part of it is just like the entire like I think the. And also because so many people are younger readers and they were reading YA fantasy and so what fantasy just feels familiar.
- [57:05]
Sarah McLean
No. And the irony is everybody, if you are listening to this, if you are new to Faded mates and you're just here for. For this Alexandria, you know, Alexandria's data debunking. I would say you would be shocked by the similarities because what I can tell you is that in 2010 all of those YA fantasies were being written. I was friends with all those people and they all to a person were reading historicals. So like I think you can see the bones of historicals like like we said in all those fantasy novels. But let's get into some of the myths because I think they are myths and they are very believable because in many cases they just feel correct. And one of the things I want to start with or the reason why I sort of we moved into this work is because, Adriana, you said that there is a sense of not being of the books, not being connected to the diversity of now. Right? And there were so many comments on this spreadsheet that were like, I only read sapphic, right? So, like, why would I read historical? It's all mf. I only read, like, it's all white people. It's all rich people. It's all, you know, a dominant, like, over class. And so I wonder if we can just talk a little bit. And I think that is largely true about books from your granny's time.
- [58:42]
Jennifer Prokop
I mean, here. I mean, here. So here's the thing. Like, we're kind of doing, like, Mythbusters, but, like, some of these myths are true for a reason of truth. I think one of the things I'm gonna just, like, say at the jump, though, is, like, one of my real struggles here is that, like, statements like that are true of. If they're true of historical romance, they're true of every subgenre. Right. It is really interesting, though, to kind of try and approach this with, like, an open heart. I mean, I don't know who wrote, you know, who these people are, and I want to, like, sort of argue with them, but, you know, it's like, I want to be like, no, you're wrong. But I really do want to, like, instead try and, like, kind of like, okay, if this is how it feels, then how can we, like, sort of debunk it? Right?
- [59:26]
Sarah McLean
Well, I also think to that point, Jen, like, these are. This is a good lesson for the industry as. As a whole. Like, Alexandria is a very popular writer. Her readers are, in many cases, very clearly eager to try a historical. They just don't want it to be what they think it is. And so, like, I guess what I'd like to do here and what we. We've talked about is let's do some, like, hardcore recommending. This week's episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by Chloe C. Penaronda, author of the Night is Defying the Second in her Nightfall trilogy, available right now in audiobook.
- [60:06]
Jennifer Prokop
Okay, so this is a Romantasy, and it is about a vampire named Night, a villain, of course. And at the end of book one, his love interest, Estrella has become something called a star maiden. And you're gonna have to read the books to find out more about this because it's, like, complex and interesting world building, but basically what we have is these two are on a journey together. She is trying to recover her kind of hidden or lost memories And Night is trying to keep it together without other vampires trying to take him down for what they see as like a betrayal of like their kind. Right. And of course, that is led by his brother. So this is like a really, like yummy, delicious romantasy where we really get like sort of a, like a, you know, a vampire and a star maiden.
- [60:57]
Sarah McLean
Hello.
- [60:58]
Jennifer Prokop
Now, the other really fun thing about this audio is that it is duet narration. And what that means is instead of it's just like he's, you know, one chapter by Jackie and then the other chapter by Corvin. Those Corvin King and Jackie Pryor are our narrators. Instead of one chapter from each of them, they also speak all their own dialogue.
- [61:17]
Sarah McLean
So even in a chapter play.
- [61:20]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, exactly. And so you really get that sense of like their sexy voices talking to each other and it feels like a real conversation rather than just someone reading it to you. So if you love duet narration, you are definitely going to want to check out the Night Is Defying.
- [61:37]
Sarah McLean
The Night Is Defying is available right now in print, ebook and audiobook and you can listen to it wherever you get your audiobooks. It is the second book in Chloe C. Penaronda's Nightfall trilogy. You can also read the first book, the Stars Are Dying in Audio as a special treat for Fade of Mates listeners. You can hang around at the end of the episode and you'll hear a special sneak peek of the Night Is Defying and get a taste of that narration Jen likes so much. Also, if you click on the chapter title right now, you can be taken to a sweepstakes where five lucky listeners will receive free copies in Audio of the Night Is Defying. Thanks to Chloe C. Penaronda, Corvin King and Jackie Pryor for sponsoring this week's episode. If you're looking for Sapphic historicals, first of all, Adriana has one. It's called An Island Princess Starts a Scandal and it's delish.
- [62:36]
Jennifer Prokop
I know that Erica Ridley has written at least one.
- [62:42]
Adriana Herrera
A Couple being a wallflower, right?
- [62:47]
Jennifer Prokop
And I know that K.J. charles also has one.
- [62:50]
Sarah McLean
Oh, does she have a Sapphic one? I didn't know that. K.J.
- [62:55]
Jennifer Prokop
K.J. Charles.
- [62:56]
Adriana Herrera
Proper English. I just read it. I just reread it this week.
- [63:00]
Jennifer Prokop
And the thing about me for KJ Charles, I just want to say, like, first of all, I've never read a bad K.J. charles book books. But I also think K.J. charles tends to write a shorter book. She is not writing 700 page. She's writing a tight 250 pages, maybe. And so another thing I just want to say is, like, if you're like, hey, maybe I would like to read historical, but I don't know, KJ Charles might be a great place to start just because you are not locked into something that is overwhelmingly long. Right. And I, I mean, listen, I teach middle school. Like, there is. I want to say this to people. There is no shame at all in saying. I'm a little worried about the length of that. Right. I mean, you.
- [63:44]
Adriana Herrera
That's what she said.
- [63:47]
Jennifer Prokop
Not in a female. Not in an FF romance. Adriana, that is not what she said.
- [63:52]
Sarah McLean
For later in the podcast.
- [63:54]
Jennifer Prokop
So I would also say, you know, writing K.J. charles is a great place to start for any. Like, just pick up any book. Right. Because of. I think it makes it a really easy entry point.
- [64:09]
Adriana Herrera
She doesn't write a butt book.
- [64:10]
Sarah McLean
Can I recommend Nicola Davidson? Because everybody loves. Listen, everybody loves a sexy book. Nicola writes erotic historicals. She wrote a book called My Lady's Lover, which is part of her Surrey Sexual Freedom Society about, like a. Listen, anybody who's ever read a Sarah Kate novel about, you know, her sex club people, this is for you. This is historical sex club. And Beatrice is the lady's maid to the Countess of Garrick. And she has been in love with her employer. I mean, this is like boss secretary. Right. She's been in love with her employer from, like the jump. And they are so incredibly hot for each other. And they are. There's like a bad marriage that's gone wrong and then they're. But they're just like, they're just friends and they're super duper horny for each other, but, like, can't possibly. Can't possibly make good on it because of, you know, everything that has. That is going on in their lives. And then like one night it just all comes to a head and kaboom and it's incredibly sexy and you're gonna love it. Also, Nicola always writes short ones too.
- [65:31]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, right.
- [65:32]
Adriana Herrera
And loves writing a Minaj. Yeah.
- [65:36]
Jennifer Prokop
Yep.
- [65:36]
Adriana Herrera
So if you like a poly. If you like a poly relationship.
- [65:40]
Sarah McLean
Yep. And there's always class difference, like, really negotiated interestingly in these books. I mean, this is one of the other things that came up was class. Right. Like, I don't. I always feel like, you know, dukes and then, you know, everybody's a duke, but I don't think so. And I think in historical, often class and the trappings of it and like the bad, the, the, the ill that comes with wealth is on page A.
- [66:07]
Jennifer Prokop
Lot.
- [66:08]
Sarah McLean
And negotiated a lot.
- [66:11]
Adriana Herrera
Yeah. And I mean, I think part of it is, like. I mean, undeniably, there are many, many, many, many dukes in historicals.
- [66:22]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [66:22]
Adriana Herrera
There's also not, like. I think the. The historical genre is big enough. I mean, it about Westerns, like, I love me a Western. A lot of problematic Westerns out there.
- [66:34]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [66:35]
Adriana Herrera
Like, there are some that are still pretty awesome. And so, like, I think you can't. Like, just, like, this genre is big enough that you almost can always find something that is, like, particularly delicious to you specifically if, like, you are adventurous. And I think part of what I want, I would love to see readers who are just really kind of loving this genre to be more adventurous historical, because there's a lot of big feelings there.
- [67:05]
Jennifer Prokop
So let's talk about another really big topic that came up is I. I would say is, like, the writing of it. Right. So many people sort of said, I don't like the writing. It just feels. Feels clunky or is, like, kind of one side of it. And then there was a side that was that sort of just talking in general about maybe, I don't know, like, lots of vocabulary. I don't know it. You know, like, there's a kind of world that I'm expected to know about that I don't really know. What would we say to that myth?
- [67:42]
Adriana Herrera
I'd say if you're reading romantic either, I've read quite a few of them, and a lot of them have a lot of language that's a little confusing. And there's, like, a lot of different characters with a lot of names that have a lot of consonants. Is okay. So that's the first thing I would say.
- [67:57]
Jennifer Prokop
Great. Yes.
- [67:59]
Adriana Herrera
But the second thing I would say is that, I mean, there is, you know, I think language that is, like, a little bit more. I've always said the historical. To me, it's like the Broadway of romance where there's just, like, a little bit more embellishment because it's part of the vibe.
- [68:19]
Sarah McLean
We sh it up.
- [68:20]
Adriana Herrera
I want you to feel like you're being dropped into a different place in time. And so that's part of, like, the vibe. But also, I think there's a lot of historical romance that has language that is dynamic and extremely, like, straightforward. Like, to me, like, Lisa, like, Lisa Claybus writes a great dialogue. Like, nobody, Like, But I don't find her language, like, clunky or boring or too floored. Like, I feel like she's such a straightforward writer.
- [68:54]
Sarah McLean
You know who I would recommend for this too. Is Tessa Dare, like.
- [68:58]
Adriana Herrera
Yes.
- [68:59]
Sarah McLean
Tessa Dare writes a great, clean, like, fast paced, very lovely romance. Like, she's a good person to start with, especially actually if you're an Alexandria fan. Like, I think she's a. So she's a great. I mean, she doesn't write Sapphic, but she's a great read alike for Alexandria. You know, the books are fun. They're sparkling. They are. They're witty and they don't. Tessa doesn't get bogged down in like, what does the tea set look like?
- [69:34]
Adriana Herrera
Right, right.
- [69:36]
Jennifer Prokop
Can I ask you. I sort of assumed that some of this was code for I only read books written in first person.
- [69:48]
Adriana Herrera
Oh, well, that also could be the case.
- [69:52]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [69:52]
Sarah McLean
Okay. Can I, can I add to that? Can I like, put a second layer on that? One of the things that kept coming, that came up again and again in the answers was relatability. Like, I'm not able to relate to these characters. So I think that's probably like in some way connected. Gen. Yeah, so let's talk about that. Like, I think relatability is a tricky one for historical because I think, like, there is a sort of intentionality in writing characters who are choosing to live out loud and like in some sort of. Of experience that you would never have.
- [70:37]
Jennifer Prokop
It's interesting because I have such a knee jerk, negative reaction to relatability as sort of a, an excuse for not reading something. And that comes, I think, from two places. One, it comes from a long history of authors of color reporting, right? Like white editors saying I can't, you know, white publishing writ large. I can't relate to it and therefore I can't, I can't sell it. I also am a middle school teacher, right. And I have kids who are kind of like, I don't, you know, I, I don't like it. And that's kind of what they say. And I think for. So I think for me, I'm just kind of like, that's always like a real weird one for me. But again, I, I really want to think about, like, where could that be coming from in a way that's like more positive, where I'm not just like saying to a kid, like, just give it a shot, will you already?
- [71:29]
Sarah McLean
My God.
- [71:29]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. Is one is, I think that if people think that, like, the problems in historical romance are not the same as problems people have now. Right? So I, you know, like, the problem is that there were chimney sweeps and I don't have chimney sweeps. Right. But whatever, right?
- [71:53]
Sarah McLean
There are no. What is where the problem is that there are chimney sweeps.
- [71:58]
Jennifer Prokop
Tell that to.
- [71:59]
Adriana Herrera
To.
- [71:59]
Jennifer Prokop
I'm sorry. Tell that to Dane, who was very traumatized, but who was. No, I. Who.
- [72:06]
Sarah McLean
The chimney.
- [72:07]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, sure.
- [72:08]
Sarah McLean
Poked and fired up the chimney.
- [72:11]
Jennifer Prokop
So I think that's the thing. Like, you have to. I, at least I would say is like, an answer to that is to bust that myth is like when you're reading historical romance, like, the problems in historical romance are the same. Right. Like the struggle for love and acceptance. Right. The search for meaning in your life. Right. Like breaking the bounds of either of the expectations that are hemming you in, whether that be society or family or gender or, you know, rules defined that are defined by your gender, or you.
- [72:40]
Sarah McLean
Can'T inherit the family fortune without getting married, for example.
- [72:46]
Jennifer Prokop
Now, that. Right. Like, but, like. So I guess I would say, like, the key is to look at whatever the problem is and not think, like, I can't relate to that. But, like, instead of saying, I can't relate to it, saying, how can I relate to it?
- [73:00]
Adriana Herrera
Yeah. I feel like part of, like, one of the things, like, oh, I feel like it's slow. Like, it's hard for me to get into it or whatnot. And I think, again, I think perhaps it's just like, what books you're starting off with. Like, one book that I think is like. Like one that should be like a primer. Like, one of the primer books is the Duchess Hunt by Lauren Heath, because it's typical, like, competence, like, secretary that is like, super comp. She runs his life, and she is tasked with finding him a wife he's looking for. And. And. And, you know, she's in love. She's been in love with him for. So it's like unrequited love. But that is probably one of those historicals. Again, her language, to me, also is very accessible. Like, I don't think Lauren Heath is writing anything that's like, you know, like Elizabeth White, for example, is a little bit. The language there. You got to get used to it. Like, once you get into the first sex scene, then you're like, okay, we can. We can handle it. But, like, it's.
- [74:12]
Sarah McLean
It's.
- [74:12]
Adriana Herrera
It's Georgian. So it's, you know, it's different than, like, what people are used to, which is Regency and, you know, Victoria. Not that anybody's checking for accurate language or anything, but what I'm saying is, like, to me, Lorraine, he. And that is one of those books, like, immediately, you know what's going on. She's in love with him. He, like, doesn't see her that way, but he admires and respects her. He has such deep admiration for her that, like, it's like, dami, you are into her and it's one of those books that you're like just in it instantly. You're in it because the romance, the dynamics of that romance are so familiar and like the promise of it is so delicious because you know the tension is going to be out of 15 the entire time. And I mean, I challenge anyone to read that book and not be like, this was a great time and that episode is literally, it's the best. I don't even know how you can find a better one.
- [75:10]
Sarah McLean
This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Annabelle Slater, author of the Launch Date.
- [75:17]
Jennifer Prokop
So in this rom com we have heroine Grace Hastings. She has what she thought was a dream job at her for a popular dating app called Fate, but it somehow is like a nightmare. Her new boss is a, is just gross. Her career just seems to be stagnating and she is just been dumped by her fiance. And so she is just really determined to like refocus on work and get it together and go after the next big promotion. And so when the company CEO offers her that very chance, she is just determined to make it happen. And what he wants her working on is a brand new app that focuses on in like real life dating experiences. And so the problem is, is that she is going to have to develop and test drive a series of great first dates that the app users can use and her partner in crime for this is her biggest work rival, Eric Bancroft. And he wants the same promotion that she does. So they're out there test driving these dates, disastrous hikes, dangerous cooking classes, steamy hot yoga sessions, and starting to realize that maybe their differences have been hiding, that they are perfect for each other all along.
- [76:32]
Sarah McLean
Aw. Well, if you love a workplace romance that includes fake dating and, and forced proximity, then the launch date just might be for you. You can get it right now in print or in ebook. And if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Annabelle Slater for sponsoring this week's episode. So one of the things that came up again and again was like, I know the history of the world, right? And so I can't read historical because I know that these people who are having a happily ever after are having it during a time that has, you know, enslavement. You know, women's rights are under the boot of tyranny children are mistreated, whatever the. The many things that we know exist, right? Queer people have to hide in. In the shadows. So how can I believe in happily ever after during a time when so many people like, were just not. Did not have access to that?
- [77:48]
Adriana Herrera
Well, and that's where I would say it is true that for many years, historical didn't do a good enough job of making the world bigger. And it's in historical and having stories of people who were not straight CIS white rich people. But that is not the case today in 2025. There's been a lot of. There's a lot of people. First of all, Beverly Jenkins has been doing it since the 90s.
- [78:20]
Sarah McLean
And as Bev says, all the time, like, there were people were did love. Like people did have happiness.
- [78:30]
Adriana Herrera
I mean, I'm here like, again, like, black people still exist. Like, we're gonna go extinct. So like, you know, like, that means that somewhere along the line, and I mean, we know that it wasn't just out of like, sexual exploitation. Like, our ancestors actually met each other. Love habit. Like I always say, there's. There. Is there a stronger institution in the United States than the black family? I don't think so. Nothing has been tried by fire more than the black family. And yet, like, people are here, love and like, you know, still thriving and happy and you know, and so to me, again, it's like your own sense of history is then wrong. You know, we haven't been taught in school enough to know that people were out there finding love and figuring it out. And I think you can come to romance and. And read about it and experience that. Like, I mean. I mean, you know, Beverly Jenkins, Uber is. I don't know, how many books has she written? 150, 200 books? I don't know.
- [79:36]
Sarah McLean
But I mean, but your point is well taken. Like, there's so it feels like we need to be lifting up the voices of so many of the modern writers in the genre who are doing this work, right? Like Diana Quincy writing Arab heroes and heroines, and Jeannie Lin writing, you know, Chinese heroes and heroines.
- [79:59]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh, and I just thought of, you know, back to the first person thing. Let me join these together. Vanessa Riley does something super interesting, which is in the ones that are like. And like three the Duke, the Lady and the Baby, right? The heroine's point of view is in first person and the hero's point of view is in third. And so one of the things you could do is if you think that, like, maybe you're struggling with this is like, that would be a great book where she. And it's like, especially that first one was probably my favorite. A really fascinating story about a woman who is from the West Indies and she essentially, like, is married to this, you know, gives birth, is her own child's wet nurse because of, like, the racism in the. In, like the. Like, the kind of what happens, like, right through a series of, like, very believable reasons. And she is like, I am an. I will do anything to be with my child. Right. And that there is no more powerful story than that to me. And that might be a great way if you're like, I really want to start with first person, but how do I get there? Then you can have half the book in first and then, like, be practicing, right, like, with that third person point of view with the hero. And so I think, like, that is an example of a book that, like, maybe was ahead of the curve about thinking about maybe, like, what that readership wanted.
- [81:23]
Adriana Herrera
Yeah, yeah. And I think part of it too is like, this idea that, like, reading, like, I know his story was, like, messed up, so I don't want to read about anything that messed up. And it's like, okay, then maybe contemporary is not doing a good enough job of reflecting our world back to us. Because babes, come on, look around right now, right?
- [81:43]
Jennifer Prokop
Like, literally right now is so messed up.
- [81:45]
Sarah McLean
I mean, what I say all the time, and this is, is the women in my books, right, writing in 19, in 1840, have more rights, bodily autonomy rights than a large percentage of American women right now. So, like, which one of us is writing the real shit, the real problem? It's incredibly. I mean, when you actually think about that, it's like enough to break you and make you lay down and.
- [82:20]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, I mean, and that's it. Like, a lot of people who are like, you know, I need. I need modern. I need people to have access to birth control. And I was like, well, in half of the states in our country, that is not actually that easy to get to. And they are looking to take it away.
- [82:35]
Sarah McLean
And also, I might say a lot of historicals. I mean, not just. Not. Not just now, not just in the last five years, but like, historicals have done birth control for a long time. You know, tinctures, tonic. We have a whole episode about tinctures and tonics. You know, Adriana has written a book about abortion. You know, Joanna Shoup has written about the overtly. About the Comstock Laws. I've written abortion.
- [83:05]
Adriana Herrera
The book is hot. The Duke gets even that book is, like, rough and humble.
- [83:10]
Sarah McLean
Listen. That begins with a midnight swim. The Meet cute is two nude people in the Atlantic off the coast of Newport swimming at midnight. And they are.
- [83:23]
Adriana Herrera
And there's, like, biting.
- [83:25]
Jennifer Prokop
It's like.
- [83:25]
Adriana Herrera
There's biting. Amazing. Okay, so I don't know. Like, I mean, guys, like, you're gonna just have to, like. Like, put Google to work. Like. Because honestly, like, there's just a lot out there that is honestly, like, great. And even the old stuff, too.
- [83:45]
Sarah McLean
Like, I mean, you have to be careful when you wade in there.
- [83:50]
Adriana Herrera
Correct. Because not all holds up. I just had a traumatic experience over the weekend.
- [83:55]
Sarah McLean
No, you listen, we're not gonna name that whole business, but you should have known better.
- [84:00]
Adriana Herrera
I flew too close to the sun. I flew too close to the sun.
- [84:03]
Jennifer Prokop
And you know better. But I have a lot of really specific things I don't like about books. Right? And so I have. Really. Yeah. You know what? Listen, my reading time is short. I don't apologize for it. Like, I actually, the other day, finally thought of, like, an. Like, something I could say to this. Because I'm constantly like, how can I make people understand what. Like this in a way that they don't find offensive? Like, I should just read everything. Is. I was like, if you were talking about, like, music, and someone was like, like, oh, yeah, I just don't really like whatever. And someone's like, but it's music. Well, yes, it is. And some music I like, and some I do not like. What the are we talking about here? I'm not allowed to like some things. Right? So anyway, one of the things I was thinking about, though, is I completely lost my train of thought. Now I'm mad.
- [84:55]
Sarah McLean
Wait. I said be careful. When you weighed in there and you got mad, I saw you and I saw in your face, you were like. Like, shut the fuck up, Sarah.
- [85:02]
Jennifer Prokop
No, no, that's good. You know what? Yeah. Because I'm gonna lose my train of thought. You know what? It is, everybody. Because of that, I have become a diligent reader of samples. Right? Like, we live in a time where you can often read fully, usually the first two chapters of any book, and you are gonna know pretty quickly whether or not this book is for you. And so I just would say, and you know what? Like, if you're standing in the bookstore, that's a little harder to do. You're not, like, I'm gonna stay. I'm gonna sit here and read two chapters, right? So I would just say if you are. You know the other thing you can do is just, like, give reading samples a shot. Like, you're not sure this is gonna work for you. Well, you do not have to spend your dollars until you get to the point where you read to the end of that sample and you're like, oh, yeah, maybe I want to keep going.
- [85:51]
Adriana Herrera
So do we have. Have books that we think are, like, foolproof? I think one book that I think is foolproof for anyone that is okay with a little bit of. With paranormal and life historical is the Magpie Lord by K.J. charles.
- [86:08]
Jennifer Prokop
Okay.
- [86:08]
Adriana Herrera
It is, like, 200 pages. Is Victorian set? I. It's. It's set like, there's trains, so I can't remember exactly when, but they do write some trains. He's a duke, but he has inherited this. No, he's an Earl. He's inherited it from his father, who he hates because his father put him on a train when he was. Put him on a boat when he was 17 and exiled him to China. And he's been in China for 17 years, basically being like. Like, doing contraband. He's basically, like, been breaking the law. He's like, traitor. And he's cursed. He's got a curse on him.
- [86:49]
Sarah McLean
Yes, he is. Of course he is.
- [86:51]
Adriana Herrera
So he's trying to, like, do crazy stuff to himself. So they have to find.
- [86:56]
Sarah McLean
I don't know what that means, but great.
- [86:58]
Adriana Herrera
He's like. He, like, bang himself against the wall. Like, he. Because the curse is to, like. For him to, like, hate himself. Like, it's a curse that makes him loathe himself.
- [87:07]
Sarah McLean
He needs a curse for this. Most. Most historical heroes have no trouble hating themselves.
- [87:13]
Adriana Herrera
That's the genius of. He's like, I love myself, but let me put a curse on you that makes you love yourself. So they have to find a. A witch that can break the curse. And that's where Steven comes in. Stephen is a curse breaker. But it so happens that Steven's father was destroyed by the Earl's father. So basically, the Earl's father destroyed this witch's family's life. So clearly there's some tension.
- [87:46]
Sarah McLean
Yes, okay, perfect.
- [87:47]
Adriana Herrera
There's some tension.
- [87:48]
Jennifer Prokop
There's a little tension there.
- [87:49]
Adriana Herrera
And he still saves his life. So there's shenanigans with a lot of horror. So if you're a little into gore, like, there's some of it. There's. It's, I think, a perfect book. And it's like 200 pages, and it does not stop.
- [88:03]
Sarah McLean
And listen, I think this is also the point I also want to get to. There were A number of people who were like, history is very boring. Like, I don't like history. I know too much about history. I don't like anachronisms. I don't. I get trapped, but I get like, wrapped up in historical accuracy. Here's what I want to say about all of that. Historical romance is not historical fiction. And it is not nonfiction about history. It is romance that is set against the kind of trappings of history. And so you can have a dude who's been cursed to hate himself who has to find a witch. And that works great in historicals. Or you can find, you know, you can. Like, we've all seen Bridgerton. Right. Like, those books are literally about like rich people who are afraid of bees. And like, that's okay too. Sure. And so I think there is a real sense of like, well, I don't want it to be like school. And when I tell you these books.
- [89:11]
Jennifer Prokop
It is not like school.
- [89:13]
Sarah McLean
Well, here's what I'll say. Most of these books are not like school. Sometimes they're really fucking boring. And you know what? Life is too short for boring books. And put that shit down. Come back to fated mates. We did not recommend a boring book.
- [89:28]
Adriana Herrera
Go read Vernacle Bastards.
- [89:31]
Jennifer Prokop
Correct. Right.
- [89:34]
Sarah McLean
You like a man who will happily get naked on a rooftop. Bare knuckle bastards is for you.
- [89:40]
Adriana Herrera
Women break into rooms. They like to make commit crimes. Like, listen, they.
- [89:45]
Sarah McLean
They lock picks.
- [89:47]
Adriana Herrera
Lock picks. Boxing fights. Like, there's just some. Like, there's a lot of bathtubs. Yeah. There's a lot of law breaking. And I think part of. Again, I think it's that myth of. It's like what my grandma used to read a grandparents. Okay. Like, your grandma was into it. We wouldn't be here. You know, don't. Also don't like throw their own grandma because you don't know what she got up to when you didn't exist. And also, also, I think there is like. I think people, because they're kind of like in their kind of space, like their comfort zone in what they're reading, really kind of need to be forced to explore. Like, we didn't even talk about Sherry Thomas, guys. Like, we didn't even talk about the Luckiest lady in London, which is like a horny book with mathematics.
- [90:51]
Sarah McLean
That makes it sound exciting.
- [90:53]
Adriana Herrera
It is. Is so horny.
- [90:56]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. Sherry writes an amazing book, a perfect book.
- [91:01]
Adriana Herrera
Every time.
- [91:01]
Jennifer Prokop
Every time. Every time.
- [91:03]
Adriana Herrera
Every time.
- [91:05]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. I think the thing Sher's books are also, to me are so careful. Right. Like, everything is completely you know, if you're just. Oh, God, it's just like, so beautiful. It's like sitting in front of like a painting at a museum. To me, like, that's how. How it's so carefully constructed. If you. I want to talk about Joanna Shoup. I know we've mentioned her a couple times, but I think the Uptown Girl series is pretty much perfect. The Prince of Broadway is kind of my favorite in a. Like, I keep it under glass because it's so perfect. And if you are interested in reading about people who are not. Not going to go along with the rules that they have been taught, right, then Joanna Shoop is for you. Right. And so in the Prince of Broadway, Florence, who is from a very wealthy New York family. This is a Gilded Age set in Gilded Age New York, which Timely is learned to like, essentially, like, gamble, like. Like hanging out with her grandmother, right. Who, you know, would like, have like, ladies luncheons and then they would all like, play cards and all this stuff. And. And Florence wants to open a casino for women and she doesn't want to get married. She is not interested in the path that her older sister has taken, which is to sort of like, you know, find a husband and get married. And even though Mamie didn't really do marry the right man, she did in fact do that, like, follow that path. Lawrence does not want to. And so she goes to Clayton Madden, who is the owner of. Of a casino, and essentially says, I want you to teach me how to run a casino. And he of course, is like, absolutely not, but I am desperately interested in you and how beautiful you are. Right. And so they end up. She ends up essentially talking him into it because only Florence can do that. And they break so many rules. And it's like both the rules that society makes for them, but for Clayton, it's more like the rules he's made for himself. And I think the other thing about this is. I think what a lot of people are afraid of in a book like this is that they will still have a very. That the hea. The happily ever after for the. For a couple like that will still, though, feel somehow that they have. That they have broken the rules. Like, right. That, well, if it's 1899 or whatever, they have to get married, they have to do whatever. And the thing about Clayton and Florence is that they. Their happily ever after really respects who they have been the entire book. And I think that it is an example of a book that really, again, like, this is a very modern dilemma, right? How do I. I love my family, but how do I say I don't want to live the life you want for me? Right? So I would say the Prince of Broadway.
- [94:10]
Adriana Herrera
The whole series is amazing. I mean, I mean, I think also Joanna is one of those, like, she writes a very specific kind of hero. And for people that, like, a little darker shade of romance, like, Joanna is like. And I feel like, especially like that series, like, really, she was, like, finding her way to other things that she's exploring now in her pen name, I think, like, like that kind of hair, like, that's living, like, outside of the law and that kind of thing. Like, really, if. If you are morally gray is your jam, which I know is the jam of many a reader these days, Joanna shoot delivers every time. That meant morally dark gray, because these men, like, out here doing bad shit.
- [94:58]
Sarah McLean
Well, if you are. If you are a contemporary reader who is obsessed with billionaires or Mafia or the Mafia, Joanna Shoup is your historical. Read alike, for sure.
- [95:08]
Adriana Herrera
Yeah.
- [95:09]
Sarah McLean
I mean, you know, I love those earlier books, too. The tycoon magnate, like, the just, like, wildly wealthy, like, Gilded Age, you know, men who just are brought low by the women in their lives. Which brings me to another thing that came up in the Alexandria survey, because a lot of people were like, I can't think. I don't want to read a book where the hero and heroine are not equal. And that coming upon that in a number of different places, it kind of kept giving me a little bit of a mind fuck because I feel like that's the whole point of all, like, of all romance, like, that at the end, the. The partners are equal. And I feel like that parody is so essential. It's like bedrock to the DNA of historicals. And I understand that it's a question of, well, if it's a hero who's an aristocrat and a heroine who's not, or whatever, it's a man and a woman in Regency England. They are not on the same level politically or legally. But, I mean, the story of all of these books is he gets brought low.
- [96:33]
Jennifer Prokop
Right?
- [96:34]
Adriana Herrera
Right. I mean, it is just interesting to me because I feel like so much of, you know, what is very popular right now, there are those, like, you know, I think, okay, let's say legally and now even that these days is up for debate. But, like, like, if he's wealthy and she's not, like, that's unequal. Even if it's 2025, like, you know, like, power dynamics and, like, privilege and, like, wealth and all those things. Do, like, erode equity in terms of, like, the contract between them. Like, we talk about this all the time. Like, if, like, consent. All those things need to be negotiated because, yeah, there's a power differential. So it is interesting to me that that feels like, you know, kind of prohibitive for the reading experience and historical. But that, like, you know, in contemporary romance where she's, like, a bartender or his nanny and he's a billionaire, like, that feels okay.
- [97:41]
Jennifer Prokop
Right, Right.
- [97:42]
Sarah McLean
It's. And it's interesting to me because I feel like, for me, the prototype of this in historical, and I think for me, because of. Of how I came through romance and I think Jen might agree with me on this is Julie Garwood's the Bride, right? Where these two characters, right, like, he is the laird of his clan. It's medieval, it's set in Scotland. She is a woman who is, you know, literally, like, comes from nowhere. Like, is just, like, lifted up from her world and set down in his aspect. Like, essentially like a. She is brought to marry him. And so it feels the plot, like, the structure of the story is these two are not equal. And within, what, like, a day, he is fully wrapped around her finger. She has started, like, multiple wars, right?
- [98:40]
Adriana Herrera
Like, and.
- [98:42]
Sarah McLean
And she is, like, dominate. She becomes this, like, unbeatable force in the community. Which goes back to your point, Adrianna, about, like, the books have to be about evolving a world, right? But I think. I think that book holds up in a lot of ways. If you are looking for what is the bone, what are the bones of this genre and partnered equity, like, yeah, that's it. That it feels like we should all be just aspiring to write. Alec Kincaid and what's that lady's name? Mine. Her name is mine. I just pushed it out of Jen's head.
- [99:34]
Jennifer Prokop
I know. I was like, I don't know. Obviously, that's what the fuck. Now.
- [99:41]
Sarah McLean
You shall call her M. Also, I would say for Jamie.
- [99:48]
Jennifer Prokop
Her name is Jamie. Sarah.
- [99:50]
Sarah McLean
Thank you. Oh, my God. Also, I would say for any of you who are looking for, like, again, like, the language of a historical is the thing that intimidates you. So many people use the word intimidate. Please don't be intimidated by us.
- [100:01]
Jennifer Prokop
We're sorry, too.
- [100:05]
Sarah McLean
Yeah, but if you're. Look, if language is a worry for you, the bride will take care of you.
- [100:10]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, right.
- [100:14]
Adriana Herrera
I mean, yeah. And again, the queer romance in general, like, there's KJ Trousers, Alexis Hall. There's Olivia Wynn. There's Cat Sebastian. I have some tj.
- [100:28]
Sarah McLean
Alexander, you mentioned Joanna Joanna Lowell.
- [100:34]
Adriana Herrera
Yeah.
- [100:35]
Sarah McLean
Who just wrote. Who wrote a trans heroine in his. Her historical last year. A sure thing.
- [100:44]
Adriana Herrera
Emma. I can't remember her last name. She has. I love you, but like a best friend.
- [100:48]
Sarah McLean
Thoreau. Emma. Oh, no, you're talking about Emma Albin.
- [100:52]
Adriana Herrera
But there's Emma Albin. That's right.
- [100:54]
Jennifer Prokop
Those are all a Thoreau.
- [100:56]
Sarah McLean
No, there's an Emma Thoreau also, but those aren't queer.
- [100:59]
Jennifer Prokop
Okay, okay. I was like, wait, too many historical romances.
- [101:03]
Adriana Herrera
Alyssa Cole has some queer historical.
- [101:07]
Sarah McLean
And if you are looking for. If you're looking for just a taste, like, if you're like, I don't know if I can commit to 400 pages. Alyssa Cole's Harlem Renaissance novella.
- [101:17]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh, yes, it's so good.
- [101:18]
Sarah McLean
Oh, what's it called? Let it Shine is so good. Is that the one?
- [101:25]
Adriana Herrera
Yes, yes. And she also has like one that's like a sapphic from like, like the Revolution, like during the American Revolution, that is. Alyssa Cole writes a really, really great novella.
- [101:41]
Sarah McLean
I think she's one of the best of us when it comes to Linda Bellas. Yes.
- [101:44]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [101:44]
Adriana Herrera
And so I think if you wanna dip. And they're all diverse. Like, Alyssa Cole is a black author. She has. Has a fantastic series set during the.
- [101:54]
Sarah McLean
Civil War called Extraordinary Union.
- [101:58]
Adriana Herrera
Extraordinary Union. It's phenomenal. Like the first one, it's like Spies in the south. And it's great. Like, there's so much to read. I mean, Courtney Milan has like a bunch of like really feminist, really great historicals that all do all the things that we talked about before. So can I know there's like a.
- [102:23]
Sarah McLean
I just wanted to say it wasn't. Let, Let Us Shine is one of them and it's great. But the one that I love, the one that like I go back to is Let Us Dream.
- [102:32]
Adriana Herrera
Let Us Dream.
- [102:33]
Sarah McLean
She is. So it's set during the Harlem Renaissance. The heroine, Bertha, is a cabaret owner and she hires an Indian chef to work in her cabaret. And it's like the whole thing is about the. It's set against the election or the vote for women's. To give women the vote. And it's in New York City and it feels so like rich and beautiful and there's like vice raids and lots of questions about immigration. So it feels really, really important still. It's continues to do the important work of romance. It's great. Let us Dream.
- [103:22]
Jennifer Prokop
I want to shout out my. We have mentioned Beverly Jenkins, but I want to shout out. I'm always ready to talk about my. One of my favorites, which is Nighthawk. So if you're like, I. I think that like what I would say is like, if you're a person who is. Is interested in like a. Like I don't want to just read about white people in ball gowns or whatever. But you are a person who's like, I don't want to also feel like I've been like, I don't know, like. Like the, like the history is being shoved down my throat. I think Bev writes the history is there, but it is so seamlessly incorporated into the story itself that you are not going to feel like it's been like it's too heavy. Like she's never gonna stop and be like, now let me tell you about, you know, I don't know, like Westward Expansion or whatever. Like it's in the book. That's what the book is. The books are about. But this is not like the way that she writes. And so instead, if you're interested, often she will have like a afterword in the back where she'll like sort of mention like, hey, these are the real historical things I was talking about. And you could just like go read more on your own if you want it to be like dry nonfiction or whatever. So. So Nighthawk is one of my favorites because it is essentially a road trip romance. Only the road trip is the train. And so Nighthawk is the like our sort of bounty hunter, you know, and then Maggie Freeman is like the woman that he falls in love with. So it is terrific. It's like one of my favorites. And it is just like, like a ride, like a literal ride. Like it's so much fun.
- [105:06]
Sarah McLean
Fun.
- [105:06]
Adriana Herrera
I mean this can go wrong.
- [105:08]
Jennifer Prokop
You literally. And they're like you said earlier, 50 something books, probably more. More.
- [105:13]
Adriana Herrera
I was just gonna say. I mean, I always talk about forbidden because I really do love that book a lot. And I also think it's a great introduction to Beverly Jenkins because it is like there's like so perfect. She gets abducted. His backstory is so compelling. Like it's. I think there's two backstories that I feel like are like burned into my brain of romance, of historical romance, heroes and it's Danes and it's respontaine's. Those two prologues to me are like canon and historical romance. They are just perfectly executed and they just bring you into that story fully ready to root for this man who. Who you have a lot of reasons not to root for him. For.
- [106:08]
Sarah McLean
For me, the recommendation that I have give, I often give to people who've like, never read a historical and, like, want to understand how, like, crazy they can be. Like, how fun and not crazy. How fun they can be is to Catch a Raven, which is one of her most recent books, because the premise is that the heroine is undercover in a Confederate senator's house or a Confederate representative's house, or a general, a Confederate person's leader's house, and she steals a copy of the Declaration of Independence and has to fake a marriage with the hero, who is also there with the Union government. And they are, like, working together to, like, shenanigan the Declaration of Independence out of this man's house. And listen, it's a real ride and so fun. And I think that's the thing that I wish anybody who had never read a historical could take away from it is, like, these books are really fun. They are. You know, one of the things, and what I'd like to end with is one person just said, they seem really dry. So my question to you both is, is, what is the wettest historical romance that you would recommend?
- [107:32]
Adriana Herrera
The wettest.
- [107:36]
Jennifer Prokop
That's what she said. Okay.
- [107:38]
Adriana Herrera
That's what she said.
- [107:39]
Jennifer Prokop
I am going to go first, because then I can be the one to take Gorilla Twins, which I. And what I was going to say is. And like, listen, this is not. If you've listened to the podcast we've mentioned, this book, Eric's right now is like, oh, gorilla twins. Again, fuck you. Right? Um, but it is. I mean, and what I was thinking, though, is, like, in a contemporary, if something just defies all of common sense and logic and reason, you would be like, I can't. This is just too silly. Gorilla Twins, the real title of which is the Earl Takes all by Lorraine Heath, is like, the romance equivalent of that scene from, like, Fast and the Furious, whatever it was, where. Where they drive the car from one skyscraper into the other. And you're watching it and you're like, I don't think that's how gravity works. But sure, that is what this book is. And basically, it's twin brothers. One is married to the woman of their dreams because the other one is in love with her. They go off, on. On to Savannah. Like, they go off to Africa on, like, a trip, and they're twins, and one of them is killed, and the other one impersonates his brother and goes back home and basically is like, yeah, I'm your husband. I. It's too bad my bad brother died, you guys.
- [109:18]
Sarah McLean
I know.
- [109:18]
Jennifer Prokop
How could you? This is boring, right? That is. Like I said, you just dropped A. Or like in another Fast and the Furious movie where a car drops out of a plane with a parachute on it and then lands and drives. That's what that is.
- [109:32]
Sarah McLean
I mean, that might. For the record, that might be the wettest historical romance.
- [109:37]
Jennifer Prokop
That's why I was like, I better go first because I'm not someone else's.
- [109:39]
Sarah McLean
You might have actually just said it.
- [109:42]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, right, Adriana.
- [109:45]
Sarah McLean
Huh?
- [109:47]
Adriana Herrera
I don't know. I have. It's very hard to pick just one. It's very hard to pick just one. But I am going to go with Any old diamonds by K.J. tucker.
- [110:01]
Jennifer Prokop
I love that book so much.
- [110:02]
Sarah McLean
That's a good one.
- [110:03]
Adriana Herrera
Because to me, it does all the things that I love about. About a historical romance and it executes it perfectly. Plus, the sex in that book is unmatched to me personally. Like you. Other people might have other opinions. It's so hot in that book and the way that the sex is done. To me, it. To me, you are perfect. You know that scene from Love, actually, it. I'm going to say so. It is very twisty. So I cannot give too much away because the twists and the reveals in that book are just so perfect. I have read that book a dozen times at least, and I don't know how she pulls that off. It is basically this, you know, young man who is an artist, but his father, his father is the son of a duke. It's like, like the second son of a duke. But this duke, the rumor is that he killed his wife to marry his mistress. It's like 10 years after his wife has died and he has basically disowned his children. So his children, who he is, one of them is basically living like almost destitute. They're like living in poverty. So he hires thieves to go and steal from his father, like this set of jewels that he's bought for his wife's like, for their like 20th anniversary or whatever. And it's like a complete romp. There's so many shenanigans. And so like the romance is between him and this thief or they're called the lily white boys, like the two thieves that he hired. And it is just, just non stop twists and turns. The tension between those two and the chemistry is phenomenal. And honestly. And it's like 250 pages.
- [112:05]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes. Again, so tight, so tight, so perfect.
- [112:09]
Adriana Herrera
The reveals are unbelievable. And honestly, the social come just like everything that she, Katie Charles does in that book, she executes it perfectly. And there's a second book in that series called Gilded Cage, which is only, I think, the only MF that I've ever read of hers. And it is just as good when it's with the other thief.
- [112:33]
Jennifer Prokop
All right, Sarah, what about you? The wettest?
- [112:35]
Sarah McLean
Well, if you remove Lorraine, I'm. I'm removing Lorraine Heath from the running. Because I actually think, like, they're, like.
- [112:43]
Jennifer Prokop
All, like, once you're in, like, sit real wet, it's fine.
- [112:47]
Sarah McLean
Right. So it feels to me like the person who is the person who. Who really, I think introduced me to, like, how wild they could get is Elizabeth Hoyt, who was mentioned earlier. And I think that for me.
- [113:06]
Jennifer Prokop
They'Re.
- [113:06]
Sarah McLean
All like Beauty and the Beast retellings in, like, the most intense way. Like, if you. If you've ever done anything like that, if you've ever been into Beauty and the Beast, Elizabeth Hoyt is your person. But I have to say the Raven Prince. And the Raven Prince is basically, the setup is the hero is, like, a loner and his secretary leaves and a widow from town takes the job to come and be his secretary. And he is very stern and, like, beasty, and he is not very kind to her. But they are, like, quietly falling, like, desperately into each other's. Like, they just can't. Can't stop being. Wanting each other. Of course, they will never make good on this. And she. But she had this, like, really decent marriage where she, like, had orgasms and, like, knew what pleasure could be. And so she finds in his papers that he pays annually for membership to, like, this gentleman's club where. And then she. Where he, like, disappears to now more frequently than ever because he is, like, so pent up with his frustration that he can't have her. And then she takes herself. One day he's planning to go to this gentleman's club, and she takes herself there and meets the lady proprietress of this. This gentleman's club and convinces her to let her be, like, masked in his room. And then they just have the wickedest, wildest sex imaginable, masked. And they're. And then they, like, return to their normal lives and everything is worse because they are just, like, hotter for each other. And this whole. It's this dance of, like, when are they going to figure it out? How long can this possibly go on? How is it possible that two people cannot not notice that the other is masked and, like, how is it possible that he cannot notice that this, like, masked woman is sitting in his office, like, hot for him all the time? It's wild and sexy and Elizabeth Hoyt is Like a real scene. But you won't be bored.
- [115:31]
Adriana Herrera
I just want to just. Just to close that. I can. You can cut me off after this. Elizabeth Hoyt did in fact write a series called the Maiden Lane series, which is very high heat is basically like. Like bordering erotic romance. And all the heroes are based on superheroes.
- [115:45]
Sarah McLean
Like, she's got a Batman, Victorian, Georgian Batman.
- [115:49]
Adriana Herrera
So. So just know that out there, there is a book series written by Elizabeth White that you can read today where there is a Georgian Batman.
- [116:01]
Sarah McLean
They literally caped Crusader.
- [116:04]
Adriana Herrera
Do yourself a favor, just Google charming, Mickey.
- [116:08]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh, yeah, the River Pirates.
- [116:09]
Adriana Herrera
And go with God.
- [116:13]
Sarah McLean
Listen, we haven't even talked about, like. Listen, I wouldn't necessarily. Again, be careful wading into these waters. But pirates. I mean, we own pirates, y'all.
- [116:27]
Adriana Herrera
That is a bit of a treacherous area, but Beverly Jenkins does have pirates. It. I, in fact, have the proof. The proof framed in my. Captured by Beverly Jenkins, the most famous privateer in the Caribbean Sea.
- [116:44]
Sarah McLean
And all the Think of, like, whole generations of like, aristocrats who masquerade as criminals.
- [116:51]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh, yeah, listen.
- [116:52]
Sarah McLean
Highwayman. Highwayman galore.
- [116:55]
Jennifer Prokop
Historical really has it all.
- [116:57]
Sarah McLean
If you like a crime in your book. Like, if you like a criminal who's. If you think criminals are hot.
- [117:03]
Adriana Herrera
Yeah.
- [117:04]
Sarah McLean
You know, like old school criminals. Not like these white collar billionaire criminals that we're dealing with now. I'm talking about, like, masked, like, you know, stand and deliver. Give me all your jewels. Historical has got you.
- [117:16]
Adriana Herrera
The Highwayman by Carrigan Burn. You want a tortured man? I mean, it's tortured.
- [117:22]
Sarah McLean
Tortured. That's basically if you liked the Saint with Val Kilmer.
- [117:26]
Jennifer Prokop
Like, you were about to like, launch into the. The thing from Moonstruck. This man is tortured. Sorry. I'm sorry. Fine.
- [117:35]
Adriana Herrera
Get me the big knife.
- [117:38]
Jennifer Prokop
Well, here's the good news. Next week we are going to be back and Sarah and I will be talking about all of the great historicals that we have never talked about before. Like, Right. We are really committed to trying to bring new historicals to you. And in the meantime, everybody, I hope has one clicked or gone went to bookshop.org and downloaded the Adriana's newest book.
- [118:02]
Sarah McLean
A Tropical Rebel gets the Duke.
- [118:04]
Jennifer Prokop
A tropical rebel gets the Duke. As like a Caribbean rebel gets the Duke. And that is not what it's called. A tropical rebel gets to Duke. It is fantastic. And it is gonna make you feel.
- [118:16]
Sarah McLean
It's gonna make you feel great. You're gonna be like, thank God for romance.
- [118:20]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes, it is gonna make you feel. That's what we're Here for Thank God.
- [118:25]
Adriana Herrera
For romance and then Google charming Mickey.
- [118:32]
Sarah McLean
I mean, don't send these new people deep into the Hoyt catalog yet.
- [118:38]
Adriana Herrera
I mean, can you get crazier than Newgate prison sex, which actually does happen there? Just know that many people have to be bribed.
- [118:46]
Sarah McLean
Amazing. Oh my God. God. Anyway, there's a lot for you over here in Roman in historical. Thanks to Alexandra Bella Flor for trusting us with this data. We hope we did it justice. She's great. Like I said, her books are in show notes. Please go support her too. She's doing what she can to save the genre with us. Thank you. Adriana Herrera. We love you so much at this point. Like you need. We. We owe you lots of things for all the times that you've been on the episodes with us. I'm Sarah McLean. I'm here with Adriana Herrera and Jen Prokop. We are Fated Mates. You can find us every Wednesday wherever you get your podcast. And you can find us online@fatedmates.net where you can read our show notes, get lists of all the books that we recommend and we talk about during the episodes and anything, anything else that we, you know, sort of throw out that we're going to leave down there. Jen does this every week and they're amazing. Go check them out. You can also still find us online so far at threads, Instagram and Bluesty. But who knows, it could all change in a. In an instant. So meet us@fatedmates.net and if you just want a place, a safe place to talk about romance novels these days. A place that's locked down where you can just talk to a bunch of other like minded people who also want to know like what the wettest romance novel is. Head over to our patreon that is at patreon.com faded mates. Every month you'll get a special episode from Jenny Me and you can access the discord where a few thousand Faded Mates listeners are talking about Roman romance all day, every day. And don't forget that if you stay tuned, you'll get a special sneak peek for Fated Mace listeners of Chloe C. Penaronda's the Night Is Defying, a new book out from macmillan Audio. Thanks to macmillan Audio and Chloe Penranda for sponsoring this week's episode.
- [120:59]
D
I held a dagger to my heart knowing he would come this bargain. Our bond would summon him from the risk to my life.
- [121:10]
E
There are more enticing ways to get my attention. Starlight.
- [121:14]
D
I wanted to deny the silk of his silvery voice caressing my skin in pleasure I wished the rage I harbored would translate it to disgust. If what you said is true, this shouldn't kill me, I challenged. Maybe I was losing my sanity, but being held captive between stone and iron, even for the single day he'd locked me here, had grown my resentment beyond caring.
- [121:42]
E
No, but it would hurt. A lot.
- [121:45]
D
His hand curled around the bar as his golden irises danced. The bastard was enjoying this.
- [121:52]
E
And there is only one place I wish to hear your screams. Where I can own them.
- [121:58]
D
My hand, poised with my stormstone blade, fell as I pinned him with a heated glare. You own nothing of me, I seethed. I made the dagger vanish through the starlight void. I paced, trying to focus, focus, focus. While I had become accustomed to retrieving that one item, I had yet to figure out how to move through it like night could. My fists flexed as I paced, as though imagining them around his neck would spur enough determination to succeed.
- [122:35]
E
Estrella.
- [122:37]
D
His voice dropped low and my eyes scrunched to it, hating the low tone of a plea.
- [122:43]
E
Just one more day.
- [122:46]
D
I gave a bitter laugh. I hope it was worth it, I said, my teeth clenched to the ache of my heart. Gaining their loyalty at my expense.
- [122:58]
E
That is not what this is.
- [123:01]
D
Then what the fuck is it? My eyes burned, but I wouldn't shed a single tear for him.
- [123:08]
E
Protection.
- [123:10]
D
Control, I corrected in a cold calm. That's what you told them. You forced me to retrieve the key to display your power over me. You should kill me with it. For the second you let me free, I will find a way to kill you. He'd taken the key and somehow blocked my ability to retrieve it. Maybe I was glad when this captivity made me volatile and I couldn't be sure what my untrained power could be capable of.
- [123:39]
E
Love, you are absolutely stunning.
- [123:44]
D
My resentment took an ugly turn. I called you here because I want you to tell me about my bonded. The one Drystand mentioned, I said, enjoying how it wiped the smile from his face.
- [123:59]
E
You had a lot to process as it was. Dryston had no right to throw that.
- [124:03]
D
At you when he did, Knight snarled. I'm glad he did, I taunted. Maybe I'll find this other person more tolerable than you. Shadow touched me before his skin did. A feather like caress of his fingers mimicked the darkness trailing up my arm.
- [124:23]
E
Why won't you wear the things I brought to you?
- [124:27]
D
I don't want things. I want to get the hell out of here. I didn't look to the change of clothing on the bed. It was tempting and beautiful. Something like a gown, but there was also leather pants and high boots. My pettiness made me not want to take anything from him.
- [124:48]
E
It wasn't safe.
- [124:50]
D
It'll never be safe. You have a court of vampires above us that all want me dead.
- [124:56]
E
Wrong. They want you alive. Now that they understand that so long as I live, too. You being alive keeps the Celestials weak.
- [125:05]
D
The reminder of our doomed existence crushed me every time. Controlled then.
- [125:13]
E
More like it. Yes. You would make their greatest ally.
- [125:18]
D
You would force me.
- [125:20]
E
I could.
- [125:22]
D
Night loved this game between us. I wanted it to burn. He tipped my chin slowly and I kept my eyes cold.
- [125:32]
E
Night murmured, I want you to belong with me.
- [125:38]
D
Thank you for listening to this clip provided to you by macmillan Audio. To hear more, look for this title wherever audiobooks are sold.