Jennifer Prokop (2:42)

The rage is back.

Sarah McLean (2:43)

And so here's what I'm saying. If you will promise us that you will never ban a book, we promise you we will help you build your war chest of $1,000.

Jennifer Prokop (2:55)

You're about to hear Amanda Lippman, and I'm really excited about it. I could not make for this part of the conversation.

Sarah McLean (3:01)

It's not a very long interview, but it's an important one. And as you're listening, think, am I gonna run for something or who do I know? Who do I know exactly would run for something? Because remember, women need to hear times. Men like, they don't need to hear it at all, and they want to run.

Jennifer Prokop (3:20)

So I want you to listen. We want you to hear this. It's about 15 minutes, and then we will be back with our regularly scheduled programming.

Sarah McLean (3:29)

Welcome, Amanda Littman from Run for Something. Thank you so much. I know how busy the world is for you.

Amanda Littman (3:37)

For Faded Mates anytime.

Sarah McLean (3:39)

Well, it's such a. A great time. It's great to see you. I know we saw each other. The last time we saw each other, it was a fated mates live, but it was two years ago, I want to say so a lifetime ago, a long time ago, a brighter time. Amanda, Run for Something is amazing. We talk about it all the time. We talk about it on Faded states. When we do. When we do phone banks, we. We talk about you on the podcast a lot. But would you explain to everybody not only what it is, but how it came to be?

Amanda Littman (4:13)

Yes. So Run For Something was born of the ashes of the 2016 election. I worked for Secretary Clinton's presidential campaign for two years. We lost, you may remember. And a week after Election Day, I started hearing from friends from high school and college who were like, hey, Amanda, you're the only person I know that works in politics if I want to run for office, because if Trump can be president, seems like anybody can do this. What do I do? And at the time, if you were new to politics and you wanted to do more than vote and more than volunteer, there was nowhere you could go that would help you. That, to me, felt like really big problems, both with our democracy and with the Democratic Party. So, along with my co founder, Ross Morales Ricado, we wrote a plan, we built a website, and we launched Run for Something on Trump's first Inauguration Day, thinking what a fun side project this will be. We'll get a couple people who want to run a local office pool. Bobby.

Sarah McLean (5:03)

Never intending for it to be a.

Amanda Littman (5:05)

Huge job, we have had since then, about 190,000 young people, mostly young people, who have raised their hands to say they want to run for local office. All across the country, we've endorsed more than 3000 candidates. We've helped elect just about 1500, nearly every state, mostly women, mostly people of color, to offices like state house, state senate, city council, school board, library board, who have gone on to do amazing things, some of whom have gone on to run for Congress and running for higher offices. And they are, I think, not single handedly, collectively changing what it means to be a leader right now. And we so badly need them.

Sarah McLean (5:45)

It's true. It feels like we need a back bench, or at least I remember in 2016 it felt that way. Like how is it possible that we don't have such a strong back bench? And now you are building it. We've had a few people on over the years from other organizations. We love the States Project here at Baited Mates. But could you, for those people who don't, who aren't maybe haven't been as plugged into politics and especially to local politics, explain why it's so important that you run for something on a local level?

Amanda Littman (6:21)

So there are more than half a million local elected positions across the country. Obviously most of them are not Congress, they're not governor, they're not statewide elected. They are the kinds of small offices that make a really big difference in your quality of life. When you think about things like voting rights and reproductive health, climate change, criminal justice reform, student loans, housing, so much of that comes from either your state legislature, your city or county council, or whatever your county government might be and your school board. These offices are winnable. They are manageable. Most of them are part time. The way that you win them for most of these races is by just knocking doors and talking to voters. Sometimes there's a little bit more. I mean, we might run ads for a big state ledge race. You know, maybe New York City Council is a little bit different, but 75% of school board races cost $1,000 or less, 85% cost $5,000 or less. You can do this even and especially if you have no experience in Latino office before.

Sarah McLean (7:20)

So one of the things that I'm most proud of is that we have at least one Fademates listener who heard the call a few years ago and ran for school board in her local election. And she won by a handful of votes in her local election and she now sits on the school board. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about if there is somebody out there and hopefully there are lots of listeners out there who are like, wait, I think I could do this. This. First of all, you've said over and over again that women especially need to be told they can do it. So, one, will you tell everybody they can do it?

Jennifer Prokop (8:04)

You can do this.

Sarah McLean (8:05)

You can do this.

Amanda Littman (8:06)

You can absolutely do this. One look at some of these, like, chuckleheads we have in office right now.

Sarah McLean (8:12)

You're already winners.

Amanda Littman (8:14)

You're like, you are a reader.

Jennifer Prokop (8:16)

You care.

Amanda Littman (8:17)

You have community. You know that you are better than most of these folks who are serving in elected office right now. But more importantly than that, we have seen over the years thousands of totally ordinary people do this extraordinary thing of getting on the ballot. We are right now working with 41 endorsed candidates up in 2025, because 2025 is not an off year. There's actually nearly 100,000 elections this year alone, more than there will be in 2026, if you can believe that. And they include, like, just amazing leaders now working with this. Manchester, New Hampshire, who is running for school board in Manchester. Board of school committee, Ward 8. She serves on the student conduct committee. She's been pushing to expand support systems for kids with behavioral mental health needs. She's got a career in the county. She's married. She's got three kids. She wants to fight to make sure that the school is better for her family. And she's been doing things now like introducing a dual language immersion program and establishing a stricter cell phone policy in the school. That's incredible. We need leaders like her in these offices. And she ran for the first time, having never done this before.

Sarah McLean (9:29)

Amazing. What's her name?

Amanda Littman (9:31)

Jessica Spillers in Manchester, New Hampshire.

Sarah McLean (9:34)

Cool. Well, our New Hampshire listeners, I'm sure, are going to get out there and pay attention. So let's say there is somebody in the world out there listening who's like, maybe I will do this.

Jennifer Prokop (9:47)

How?

Sarah McLean (9:48)

What do they do? What's the first step?

Amanda Littman (9:50)

Okay, first thing you do is go to run for something's website. You can go to runforwhat.net and you can look up your exact address and see what offices are available for you to run for. We will tell you what's on the ballot this year and next and give you some initial information on how to file. Then you're going to start getting information from our team. We do monthly candidate introduction calls. We talk through all the basics of how to run for office. Talk through our program if you're eligible for endorsement, how that works. You'll get all the details there. But if you want to start thinking about it right now, there's really three questions that you need to, like, start to marinate on. One, what is the problem you care about solving? What's the thing that gets you out of bed in the morning or keeps you, like agitated in the shower or something that really inspires you when you want to do more.

Sarah McLean (10:34)

Just one, only one thing, you know, dealer's choice.

Amanda Littman (10:38)

Two, what is the office that would give you power to do something about it? You know, if the thing you care about is book bands, think about school or library board or maybe state ledge, depending on where you are. If the thing you care about is abortion access, think about state ledge. If the thing you care about is housing, think about municipal government. And then three, start to think about why voters should want you to win. You want to win because winning is great and losing sucks. Voters will want you to win because you can do something really specific and tangible to improve their lives. If you can answer those three questions, everything else about a campaign is logistics and how to communicate those answers to as many people as possible before the.

Sarah McLean (11:19)

Deadline of election Day. And then once you're on the ballot, you're going to reach out to us at Beta Mates and we're going to do phone bank for you. That's how it's going to work. You've already got us. You already have a big support team. You've got run for something. You've got faded mates. Together we can rule the world. So Amanda is there. Tell us. Let's talk a little bit about the elephant in the room. Let's talk about how scary everything is. What can we do aside from run for something? You know, I think there's a couple things at play right now.

Amanda Littman (11:52)

One is call your member of Congress. Call them every day. If you are represented by a Democrat, tell them to like nut up and fight or whatever. Hurry up and fight. If you're a Democrat represented by a Republican, they need to hear from you, too. Make sure that they know you're paying attention. Second thing you can do is, again, as I said, there's close to 100,000 elections this year. Every single election is a chance to show Trump and the Republican Party that their actions have electoral consequences. We've seen this already. This year. In Iowa, Democrats flipped a state Senate seat that Trump had won by 21 points. In Oklahoma, we've already beaten two conservative incumbent mayors and flipped control of those cities. That's really meaningful. And we're going to see more of this in each of these elections over the next couple months, both the special elections for the U.S. house, but also these local races, even in a special election in red communities. So take a look at what's going on around you can you volunteer for a local race? Can you knock on doors for them? Make sure you vote if you have the opportunity to, because winning begets winning begets winning. And it shows the GOP that they should be acting as if they will be held accountable because they will be held accountable.

Sarah McLean (13:04)

And important to note everybody, that a lot of these school board elections are in the spring, which is not expected. People don't think about elections until much later in the year. But make sure you pay attention and you check on when your local local elections are all But I think a.

Amanda Littman (13:24)

Few thousand of the 98, 99,000 elections that are in 2025 happen between February and July 4th.

Sarah McLean (13:33)

So is it too late to run this year largely, would you say everywhere?

Amanda Littman (13:38)

There's still a few places where there are filing deadlines, but at this point you should really be thinking about 20. Now that being said, Republicans get indicted all the time. There are always special elections coming up. I know that there's about to be some redistricting that might open up some other state ledge races in the end of this year, but right now we're definitely looking to build as big of a funnel as we can or big as a pool we can for people thinking about running in 2026. Because actually this is the third thing you can do. Start to like mentally and practically prepare to win big next year. Think about 2018, the work that we did in 2017 in the Virginia state ledge races, in the Georgia special election where Jon Ossoff came this close in the countless other special elections and local elections that year that built the muscle for winning that allowed us to go big in 2018. The House mitigate loss in the Senate, I think we won the popular vote by 7 or 8 points. We flipped governor's mansions. We won 350 some odd state ledge seats. We did that because we did the work over the course of 18 months. We got to do the work now to win next year. And that means, you know, the town halls, the calling your members of Congress, the building relationships in your community, voting in local elections and beyond all of that, just like mentally wrap your head because I know psychologically it feels so doom and gloom right now. We're going to win next year and what are we going to do to make sure that's true? We're going to win next year and we're going to be able to do even more with that power that we hold?

Sarah McLean (15:11)

Well, I mean I'm manifesting that. Let's win next year. Let's do it. I'm in. And also just remember that these get involved in your local community organizations, your local Democrats organizations. You're on the ground. All of these candidates need boots on the ground around to knock on doors. You win a, you win a school board election for a thousand dollars if you knock on doors in those communities. And so volunteers matter.

Amanda Littman (15:43)

They are so important. And especially right now when people are justifiably so. I am too big mad at the Democratic Party. Big mad. Like if you're running locally, whether you're running as a Democrat or running in a nonpartisan race, you get to put a new face to the party in your community. Like the way we fix the party. I get yelled at on the Internet about this, but like the way we fix the party is by having better people run in it. Not it's hard, but it's like not complicated.

Sarah McLean (16:14)

And I reached out to you because I saw you responding to the op ed from James Carville that I also viscerally responded to, which said, let's just all sit tight. There's nothing we can do right now. Except there is a lot we can do right now. The way that, you know, I think all the time about that Mississippi law that ended up in the Supreme Court and overturned Roe. You know, if we were not sitting on our laurels waiting for a national election, what could we have done there? And so don't sit tight, everyone. Now's the time to build community.

Amanda Littman (16:49)

And I've always said the best way to win a fight is, you know, not engage.

Sarah McLean (16:55)

That's literally only true with my toddler.

Amanda Littman (16:56)

That is not true in any other circumstance in life. What is James Carville talking about?

Sarah McLean (17:02)

Well, I've been asking that question for a while. So anyway, Amanda, thank you so much. Is there, tell us. Well, first of all, are you having, do you have any time to read these days? Is there anything that you've read that's great that you want to share?

Amanda Littman (17:17)

Two things. Well, I just, I got a chance to read your summer book.

Jennifer Prokop (17:21)

You did?

Sarah McLean (17:22)

Yes, Your team sent me a copy.

Amanda Littman (17:23)

It's so good. I'm sure that all of your listeners.

Sarah McLean (17:26)

Have already pre ordered it.

Amanda Littman (17:27)

But it is so fun and so like some are soapy rich people behaving chaotically. I also, I just finished Linda Holmes new book Back after this, which is about a podcast producer becomes a host and finds love. And it's like a very sweet story.

Sarah McLean (17:46)

I love her. I think she's so great. I love her books.

Amanda Littman (17:49)

Such a beautiful. It was like such a relaxing read, which I'm so glad to get into it.

Sarah McLean (17:53)

Awesome. Well, two strong. Two strong books, two strong recs, and not just because one of them was mine. Tell us again where we can find more information about Run for something and donate. Right, Everybody, you can go donate a little bit of money to run for, or a lot of money to run for something and help these candidates get one.

Amanda Littman (18:14)

So to look up where you can run, the best place to go is runforwhat.net because that's our special hub. It's run by a couple different parts of our organization. You can enter your address to learn more about the organization. You can go to runforsomething.net, you can volunteer. You can get details on running. You can absolutely give money. And of course, I would be remiss and probably yelled at if I didn't also mention I have a nonfiction book coming out in May, which I'm really excited about, called when we're in the Next Generation's Guide to Leadership. That's all about, like, what does it mean for millennials and Gen Z to own our power, both in politics, but especially outside of it, and how it'll look different.

Jennifer Prokop (18:51)

So you can pre order that too, if you want.

Sarah McLean (18:52)

Amazing. A perfect graduation gift.

Amanda Littman (18:55)

A perfect graduation gift to the young.

Sarah McLean (18:57)

Person in your life who has got save us all. So thank you, Amanda, so much. Thanks for making time. I know how busy you are, and I'm so grateful to you. And we are so grateful to run for something and we're going to win next year. So I'm getting ready.

Amanda Littman (19:13)

Thanks, Sarah.

Sarah McLean (19:14)

Take care.

Jennifer Prokop (19:16)

Ever since you suggested this topic, I've had that. I've had, like, a lot of Madonna songs in my head.

Sarah McLean (19:24)

Really?

Jennifer Prokop (19:25)

Yeah. She's only got four minutes to save the world, sir. Her and Justin.

Sarah McLean (19:32)

Wow. Okay.

Jennifer Prokop (19:34)

Sorry.

Sarah McLean (19:35)

A real deep cut.

Jennifer Prokop (19:38)

I mean, is it, though?

Sarah McLean (19:40)

I mean, I guess Madonna and Justin.

Jennifer Prokop (19:42)

Timberlake is basically his mainstream.

Sarah McLean (19:44)

It's not very good. It's a very shallow cut, but the.

Jennifer Prokop (19:48)

There you go. But now I'm with you.

Sarah McLean (19:50)

It is not where I went at all, so.

Jennifer Prokop (19:52)

Oh, okay. Well, fair.

Sarah McLean (19:54)

There you go. But that is because I don't feel like I'm as, like, musical as you are. You know, Eric does that, too, where he's like, instantly, there's a.

Jennifer Prokop (20:02)

There's like a song, y'all, if you're.

Sarah McLean (20:04)

Following us on Instagram, like, every once in a while, there's a song posted to an image there. And like, almost always, that's an Eric song. You and Mr. Reid's romance. You're concert Goers, you're very like, music is your thing. And that's.

Jennifer Prokop (20:17)

Music is the thing we like. Yeah.

Sarah McLean (20:19)

I feel like I was not raised by. And I often think, like, is this because of, like, my parents not being American? Often I think about this, like, oh, interesting. The musical experience. Not that. I mean, listen, like, not that music doesn't transcend culture and boundaries. Like, but I often feel like, for my parents, like, music just wasn't a thing.

Jennifer Prokop (20:41)

I think, you know, it's funny. Cause I think of it being, like, really about me and my brothers and also Casey Case.

Sarah McLean (20:48)

Now I do. I was a top 40 girl when I was a child.

Jennifer Prokop (20:51)

And I remember, like, at the end of the year, in particular, everybody I'm really dating myself. I don't care. At the end of the year, they would do, like, the top 100 countdown or whatever. And, like, my brothers and I would, like, sit around and, like, list them and, like, you know, sort of be like, did you catch what number 29 was? Or whatever.

Sarah McLean (21:09)

So that's good. Did you have cable? Did you have, like, mtv?

Jennifer Prokop (21:13)

Yes. Not all the time. We were. I remember when they wired our neighborhood for cable. Whoa. You couldn't get it because there wasn't literal cables under the ground.

Sarah McLean (21:27)

Yeah.

Jennifer Prokop (21:27)

And they came in one summer and, like, dug all these fucking trenches and laid it. And then people could get cable.

Sarah McLean (21:34)

It's interesting because I remember and, like, Eric is always like, how is this possible? But, like, I'm a. I'm a little younger than you, and. But my family did not have a color television until, like, I remember my dad won a color television in a raffle.

Jennifer Prokop (21:54)

Wow.

Sarah McLean (21:54)

I was maybe, like, eight. Listen, you guys. So that would make it the mid-80s. Like, color TVs. You all had color TVs before I did. Like, and the only reason why we had one was because he wanted in a raffle. And then, like, we didn't have cable until years later. It feels like, like, I was 10 or 12 by the time when we got cable. And so I also feel like I missed the MTV of it all also. And, like. And I do think MTV and you.

Jennifer Prokop (22:25)

Were too young for Friday Night Videos.

Sarah McLean (22:27)

Yeah. I don't know what that is.

Jennifer Prokop (22:29)

So today it's just right there in the title. It's okay.

Sarah McLean (22:34)

But I do feel like MTV really delivered music to my, like, to the, like, Gen Xers in a way that it did not deliver it to me. And my siblings were both, like, full decade older than me, so they were, like, at college listening to music without me.

Jennifer Prokop (22:52)

Some of my students have been coming to school with disc mans. And, like, it's really cute. And then they, like, carry around their little stacks of CDs. So it's like, very. You know what I mean? Like, it's a very specifically adorable thing. And I don't know why, but I was, like, looking through one of my drawers at work. I mean, I've worked there for a long time, so there's a lot of weird shit in my drawers. And I found my YouTube, my Octong Baby CD at my. I don't know why it was at work. Anyway, I brought it to this group of kids, and I was like, hey, listen, I found this. And they were like, oh. And I was like, so. I don't know. You're gonna have to share it, I guess. So anyway, it was, like, really cute. But, yeah, you know. Okay.

Sarah McLean (23:32)

Sorry.

Jennifer Prokop (23:32)

But I teach house. I guess I'm Talk about school week. I teach House of the Scorpion. And this book, it's like, in the future and the bad guys, El Patron and the kids are like, how old is he? And we have to, like, kind of work backwards from the information we know about the technology in.

Sarah McLean (23:48)

Sure.

Jennifer Prokop (23:48)

The home. And the reason why is, like, the. His, like, house, the main house in this book is, like, essentially like Williamsburg, Virginia, but for him, it's like his own personal memories of what it was like to grow up in Durango. And so, like, we're kind of working backwards. And the key piece of information we have is that he was watching black and white tv. And I tell the kids the story about how, like, I still watch a black and white TV in the 80s, but it was like the back bedroom TV.

Sarah McLean (24:14)

Did you have one that was inside a piece of furniture?

Jennifer Prokop (24:17)

Oh, I didn't, but my grandparents did.

Sarah McLean (24:20)

Okay. We had one that was inside a piece of furniture.

Jennifer Prokop (24:22)

Like, I was like, you guys, like, just, like, now. I'm sure it's true for a lot of you. Like, your mom and dad gets a new phone, and then you get, like, the hand me down phone. Like, that's been the case. But it was like, with TVs, like, right. Like, so you got a new TV, and then, like, the old black and white TV got demoted to, like, the back bedroom. And that's where I was watch tv.

Sarah McLean (24:40)

Yeah.

Jennifer Prokop (24:40)

Right.

Sarah McLean (24:41)

Yeah. I mean, listen, so that is too old. That is too old. Discussing technology, you know?

Jennifer Prokop (24:48)

You know who's on a ticking clock, Sarah? Us in our lives.

Sarah McLean (24:51)

I know, right? I was talking to somebody last night, actually, about the fact that, like. And I feel like, maybe I've stopped me if you've heard this one, Jen, but right now, in the world, a movie that I keep coming back to and thinking, like, we should really watch this movie is the Sound of Music. Have we talked about this on the podcast?

Jennifer Prokop (25:08)

No, but I do love the Sound of Music.

Sarah McLean (25:09)

Me, too. But here's the thing. I feel like if I showed my child the Sound of Music, she'd be like, what the fuck is this? And why are we watching it? And part of it is because these kids today don't understand that it's Christmas and that's what's on tv.

Jennifer Prokop (25:27)

Right? Exactly. You're like, this is what we're watching.

Sarah McLean (25:29)

There are. It takes 18 hours to watch it because there are 72 commercial breaks in my head. The Sound of Music is the longest movie ever made.

Jennifer Prokop (25:40)

It actually also is longest movie ever. It's very long. It is very long, for sure.

Sarah McLean (25:46)

And so, like. And I just feel like these kids, they don't understand.

Jennifer Prokop (25:50)

Yeah. They don't get it.

Sarah McLean (25:51)

You watched everybody, like, the Sound of Music is in all of our brains when we think about Nazis. Because all were forced to watch it because that's what was on television.

Jennifer Prokop (26:02)

You know, when Little Romance was home over winter break, the sound music was on, and I was, like, watching it, and he sat down, watched with me for a while, and he's like, this is actually better than I thought it would be. And I was like, thank you. He did get bored and, like, wandered off.

Sarah McLean (26:15)

But, I mean, there are some pretty boring parts of that movie.

Jennifer Prokop (26:18)

Sure. But the. The other day, somebody. We were talking at work about A Christmas Story, and I made this joke about how, like, you know, we have, like, I have some, you know, colleagues who are in their 20s, and I made this joke that was like, yeah, you guys don't remember, but, like, there was this old movie, A Christmas Story, where, like. And I can't remember what I was referencing. Blah, blah. Oh, I know. You know, it was like a snow suit and he couldn't put his hands down. Right. She, like, comes up, and one of my other colleagues, who's closer to my age was like, way too. People not know what A Christmas Story is. And I was like, no, why the fuck would they?

Sarah McLean (26:52)

No. But they see that leg lamp all over the place, and they have no idea that it's a reference. They don't. They just don't know. But we've talked about this with romance, too, right? Like, there are so many things that get referenced, and, like, they don't know the Original text that it's coming from, which is, I mean, I guess, cool in its own way, Right? By the way, everybody, the Sound of music is 2 hours and 52 minutes long. And that does seem long, but also, you know, it takes time to defeat Nazis, so that is my message of hope to you. I mean, let's talk about Christopher Plummer being fucking hot and ripping that Nazi flag to pieces. Shredding. Ripping it down. Tearing it.

Jennifer Prokop (27:34)

I will admit, I do think that little romance who's a young gay man, was like, that guy seems hot. I was like, welcome to my world. You want to come online?

Sarah McLean (27:42)

You come online at that image. Did he recognize it from, like, Internet?

Jennifer Prokop (27:49)

Yeah, I think some of it, for sure. I mean, he was very. We were watching the beginning part, though, because he was like, why do their clothes look like that? And I was like, well, she sewed them out of curtains. And he was like, beep, beep, beep. Back it up.

Sarah McLean (28:01)

This is the opposite of the Sound of Music. But Gone with the Wind, she also sews clothes out of curtains. Was that just a thing that we did when we didn't have a lot of.

Jennifer Prokop (28:09)

I was not a Gone with the Wind girly.

Sarah McLean (28:11)

I mean, I'm not surprised. But the point is that there is. I mean, you. You do know she puts on a dress that's made of the curtains, right?

Jennifer Prokop (28:18)

No, literally. I know my sound.

Sarah McLean (28:20)

My.

Jennifer Prokop (28:20)

I'm proud to tell everybody out there that I have never interacted in any way with any part of it.

Sarah McLean (28:25)

Pred. Did other things. But.

Jennifer Prokop (28:27)

Yeah, for sure.

Sarah McLean (28:28)

But.

Jennifer Prokop (28:28)

But yeah.

Sarah McLean (28:28)

Just, like, I don't want to get into the weeds on Gone with the Wind, but I do have a question about making clothes from curtain.

Jennifer Prokop (28:34)

Making clothes out of curtains. Well, I think, sure, it feels like.

Sarah McLean (28:37)

There'S just a. Yards and yards of fabric. The kids are growing. Might as well.

Jennifer Prokop (28:40)

Exactly. It's a list.

Sarah McLean (28:42)

I'm actually kind of surprised that we've now. I can't think of right now a romance novel where we make clothes out of curtains, but it feels like that should have existed in historicals. And so if you're out there and you're like, oh, I got one. Please let me know.

Jennifer Prokop (28:53)

Yeah, for sure. There has to be.

Sarah McLean (28:57)

I can think of, like, a dozen romance novels where, like, the nanny gets punked by the children as she falls. The governor skips punked by the children as she falls in love with the owner of the house.

Jennifer Prokop (29:08)

The romanticizing of the past in romance is usually about men doing work, not women. And that's why I think it doesn't exist. Like he's up on a roof thatching even though he's a duke. But like, I don't want to see any of these sewing in a historical romance. I don't like you. Don't you? You're better than that.

Sarah McLean (29:31)

Listen, sewing is actually fun. If anybody out there meets a duke for real, like if you're just walking down the street in California and me, Prince Harry, please ask him if he's a master thatcher.

Jennifer Prokop (29:41)

Oh my God, please report it.

Sarah McLean (29:44)

Why he's a duke. He's now a homeowner.

Jennifer Prokop (29:48)

This week's episode of F Mates is brought to you by 1001 Dark Knights, publishers of Office Sparks, a workplace romance collection.

Sarah McLean (29:58)

I love an anthology. And the reason why I love an anthology is twofold. 1. I love just like quick little bites of things that I love so like quick novellas. All of which you and I are both on the record for loving an office romance.

Jennifer Prokop (30:15)

It's true.

Sarah McLean (30:16)

Call HR everybody. I'll tell them why it's hot right to their face. And I also love it because often in an anthology there's an author who you haven't read or there's something who maybe like you've heard about but haven't quite gotten to. And in this case in when 1001 Dark Knights is doing these anthologies, they are collecting authors who know the job. These are long standing romance novelists who have these delicious novellas that are now packaged up in these great ebook collections. This one is all workplace Romances by C. D. Reese K. Bromberg, Laurel and Page and Heather Graham. And this is going to deliver all of that like sexy, conflict laden tension in forbidden crushes and rivals and secret affairs that they have to hide from everyone in the office. These are going to deliver high heat and really fantastic romance and I don't hate it. I'm definitely going to read the hell out of this one.

Jennifer Prokop (31:18)

Yeah, I mean, these are four authors who know the job. So if you are interested in checking out the Office Sparks collection and your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to buy the book. It is available in paperback or with your monthly subscription to Kindle unlimited. Thanks to 1001 Dark Nights for sponsoring this week's episode.

Sarah McLean (31:42)

All right, welcome everyone. Fated mates. I'm Sarah McLean. I read romance novels and I write them.

Jennifer Prokop (31:50)

I'm Jennifer Proko, romance reader and editor.

Sarah McLean (31:53)

And this is what we do sometimes.

Jennifer Prokop (31:57)

You know what? I think it's fine.

Sarah McLean (31:58)

Listen, Jen had a rough week. I had kind of a Rough week. So we're taking a little break, and we're gonna talk about something that is about, you know, a lot of people, when they. When they listen, they send us messages and they say, like, you're always sort of referencing craft stuff in romance novels, like, what it. You know, why something works. And one of the reasons why we started doing these trope episodes, I mean, like, back in the day, was that we wanted to talk about, like, okay, road trip romances. Like, what do they do? What's the purpose that they're serving? How are they crafted? What makes a good one? And I think we continue to do that work. One of the things that we talk about a lot or that I talk about a lot when I do my conflict workshops is the value of a ticking clock. And so that. That's why this week, we're going to talk about ticking clocks in romance.

Jennifer Prokop (32:47)

Sarah, would you please explain what a ticking clock is?

Sarah McLean (32:50)

Yeah, but to do that, I have to talk about conflict.

Jennifer Prokop (32:53)

Okay.

Sarah McLean (32:53)

It's going to be really rough for me, but okay. As you all know, I believe that conflict is, like, the most important thing in all storytelling. And, you know, genuinely in life, conflict is valuable. It's where tension exists, and that's where interesting storytelling happens. And it also is the gap, gas and engine for a whole book. So if you don't have enough conflict, the book is gonna get. It's gonna get tough to get through. It's gonna get a little boring, it's gonna sag a little. It's probably gonna be a little sad in the middle. And that is because there just isn't enough going on to keep you engaged. So for me, my. When I come to a book, When I come to a book as a writer or as a reader, I think a lot about, like, how much conflict can we pack into this thing to make sure that, like, the pages keep turning? If, like, I'm sure I've said on the podcast before, if it takes you longer than 6 hours to read my books, then, like, I've done something wrong, and that's because of conflict.

Jennifer Prokop (33:47)

Can we. Can I, like, do a little bit of talk about conflict before we move on?

Sarah McLean (33:51)

Yeah.

Jennifer Prokop (33:51)

Okay, So I think one of the big, like, a misunderstanding, right, is that, like, in real life, people, like, talk about conflict as something to be avoided. Right. Like, we think of it as negative. Right. Like, we have a hard time with it. Right. So I think there is sort of sometimes, like, a. Like a. Like a way in which, like, if, like, misrepresented. Yeah. It, like, exists Differently out in the world than it does when we're talking about it in a book. Like, as a structure. Right.

Sarah McLean (34:24)

But also, Jen, in, like, real world conversation. Right?

Jennifer Prokop (34:28)

Yeah.

Sarah McLean (34:28)

Like, the best conversations often are like, you love a movie and I didn't love it so much. Tell me why.

Jennifer Prokop (34:34)

Correct. Exactly. And that's what we're saying when we're talking about conflict. So, like, you are at work and everybody agrees that, like, something X needs to happen, but, like, people have different ideas about how it should happen. That's conflict.

Sarah McLean (34:48)

Conflict's also, like, how we learn how we engage with the world.

Jennifer Prokop (34:53)

So it's not a bad thing. Like, conflict is just like a normal thing because different people have different ideas about how to achieve the same goal. Or like, there's only one of something and both people want it or.

Sarah McLean (35:05)

Right.

Jennifer Prokop (35:05)

Like, so there's lots of ways in which conflict is just like a normal part of our everyday life. It's actually impossible to avoid.

Sarah McLean (35:12)

Right.

Jennifer Prokop (35:12)

So when we talk about conflict in books, what we're just talking about is, like, how do these two people view the world through a different lens? And then when are they going to decide that they actually, like, care about doing something the same way or agree to, you know, whatever, however they're going to, like, manage that conflict? But I do feel like this thinking conflict is bad or can be eliminated or always should be avoided is not actually great for storytelling.

Sarah McLean (35:41)

And you don't have to write the way I do where it's like, how many times can people punch each other in the face? Like, sometimes it's, like you said, as simple as a conversation. Like every romance here who has ever said, I am not for love. Love is not for me. Like, that's conflict. Right. Like, these kinds of, like, internal conflicts exist so that. And they. They push the story forward just as much. But, like, anytime you see a character, like, bump up against something, that's conflict. That said, it can be very difficult for a certain type of writer. Like, some writers, like me, gravitate toward it. Other writers are naturally averse to the idea of, like, extreme conflict or any conflict at all. And so, like, they find themselves having to, like, find ways, like tips, tricks, it, and ways for you to amp up conflict in a book.

Jennifer Prokop (36:34)

Right?

Sarah McLean (36:34)

And there are a million different ways to do it, and there are many that are my favorites. But one of the classic ways to amp up conflict in a romance novel is to establish a ticking clock. Right? And what that means is the story begins, and then at the end of the story, a thing will be Completed. So it's like. Like a house party romance. And, like, the book is only, like, these characters are only together for the duration of this house party, right? It's like a vacation run. Like a, you know, romance in paradise. Like, these people are on a vacation. The book only exists. Like, at the end of the vacation, they are going to separate and, like, go their separate ways. So, like, can they fall in love before the end of the vacation? You know, a road trip romance is always a ticking clock. Like, they're on their way to a place and whatever. Like, the time that they are together on the journey to that place. And it can be. I have, like, a million examples of how this all works. But, like, it can be the threat of discovery. Like, a person is in disguise. We know that they're going to get found out. That's a ticking clock. So it can be overt in the text. Like, we have two weeks until X. Or it can be just sort of like a sense of building nervousness, like a kind of building tension of, like, what happens when this is over.

Jennifer Prokop (38:03)

So that's like one continuum. It's just like, kind of. Does it work? Does it, like, serve the story you want to tell? Because the problem with, like, a ticking clock can also be that it is like, a false way, like. Or, like, you know, like an author thing. And let me give you an example. One kind of ticking clock that I think almost always is a disservice to the story is to map out the event, map out the romance, I mean, onto like an external calendar, like a sports season or a school year. This happens a lot in F1 romances that I've read. Right? So it's like the beginning of the book is the beginning of the F1 season. And I know that the end of the book is gonna be the end of the season. And yet there's a way in which, like, sometimes I'm like, you're so caught up in trying to, like, stick to this calendar and what it means for readers. And, like, maybe the F1 example I've seen it happen. A school year is actually a really good example. Right? Like, what you have taught the reader is like, nothing's gonna happen till May. And so I think the thing about a ticking clock is it has to really be driven by the story itself. Now, I guess a ticking clock, if it's like, okay, I'm a researcher, but.

Sarah McLean (39:18)

That'S not a ticking clock, right? Like, that's so much time.

Jennifer Prokop (39:23)

Yeah, exactly. That's my point.

Sarah McLean (39:25)

A ticking clock has to feel like, the bomb's gonna go off. Like, if we don't get out of this house, there's a bomb going off.

Jennifer Prokop (39:32)

Right. And so I think that that's a really key thing about a ticking clock for me is immediacy. It can't just be like. But I think. I guess I'm. I was really interested in time in general as I started thinking about this, because I was kind of like, when does it work? When does it not? And yet the obedience it has to feel in their face, it has to feel oppressive almost. Yeah.

Sarah McLean (39:54)

I mean, I love a ticking clock. And anybody who has read my books knows I love a ticking clock. Like, almost all of my books have it in some form or another. Like, the structure of it, of my books lends themselves to. But I like a short romance. Like, I don't know. I don't want this to sound like I'm. I'm saying this is the only way. Say I'm saying, of course not. For me as a writer and also as a reader, I gravitate toward romance that feels so breathless because it happens so fast. So, like, yeah, if you look at my books, I think you. I've written 20 of them, and I would think probably 15 of them are two weeks and they're in love.

Jennifer Prokop (40:36)

Yeah.

Sarah McLean (40:37)

Some of them are even shorter than that. Like, really, really tight, tight time frames. And I think it's because I like external conflicts so much that the pacing of the book has to go fast.

Jennifer Prokop (40:54)

Do you think it's also in historical romance because of the constraint of, like, the season?

Sarah McLean (41:01)

I think there's that. I think it's also, like, there. Once two people leave each other in historicals, like, there is a real possibility they will never stumble into each other again. Right. Like, okay.

Jennifer Prokop (41:12)

Yeah. Right.

Sarah McLean (41:13)

If. If it's like, well, now I'm going away to my parents home for the rest of the year, like, well, anything could happen there. Right. And then we can't, like, really pull the tension tight again because we have to start over when they come back together.

Jennifer Prokop (41:30)

Yeah. And that's, I think my point about, like, calendar is not ticking clock. I think that's what I was trying to say. Right. Like, and sometimes I think people treat it like it is, and I'm like, don't do that. Nine months from now, he's going to go back. He's been a researcher and we've been students together. Like, that's not a ticking. Well, that's just a job. Yeah.

Sarah McLean (41:49)

Right. Like, if you think about F1 or like the NFL season, like, yes, that's his job season. Right.

Jennifer Prokop (41:57)

And in fact, it almost is like the opposite.

Sarah McLean (41:59)

Like.

Jennifer Prokop (41:59)

Right. Like you're, like, you're like. What you've taught me is they're not going to get together until the Super Bowl. And. And if I know anything about the sports season and it's October, then I know that whatever is happening right now is actually not that big of a deal. Right. And so sometimes I feel like calendar works against you in a way that ticking clock does not. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. Does that make sense?

Sarah McLean (42:19)

No, but it's interesting, right? Because now I'm thinking about Ted Lasso, which everybody, if you've listened to the podcast for a long time, right. Like we. We did two episodes on Roy Kent on season one and season two of Ted Lasso. We didn't touch season three because it didn't go the way that we thought it should.

Jennifer Prokop (42:33)

I didn't finish watching it, Sarah.

Sarah McLean (42:35)

I mean, I bless you on that, but the. And that's as much as we have to say about season three of Ted Lasso. No, listen, the promise of the premise.

Jennifer Prokop (42:44)

TV show is going down. I'm done.

Sarah McLean (42:46)

No, you can't set. Okay? You cannot. It's not enough. I have to say it. You cannot set up an entire three seasons of television with this concept of like, the rom com is the greatest thing that has ever been. And then. And shit the bed on every romance. That is what I have to say about that.

Jennifer Prokop (43:05)

But.

Sarah McLean (43:06)

All right, Roy Kent is great in season one and season two, and we did two episodes on it. But Ted Lasso is really interesting because in both of those. And again, it's not a romance, right? Like, I mean, it's a show. But the ticking clock in Ted Lasso is in a little bit. I mean, the structure. Not a ticking clock. The structure of the show is. This is the season of soccer, right?

Jennifer Prokop (43:26)

Yeah, football.

Sarah McLean (43:28)

And there is this sort of threat, like the team might get relegated.

Jennifer Prokop (43:33)

Right?

Sarah McLean (43:34)

Right. And then that's. And so, like, there is this sort of sense of dread, like if we don't sort out what we're doing, the team could lose.

Jennifer Prokop (43:45)

It's big stakes, right?

Sarah McLean (43:46)

It's big stakes. And it's big stakes because for everyone on the whole, like the whole cast, every character is a big stake. It. Stakes for everyone. I think it can work. I just think. I think Susan makes it work in Chicago Stars now. And then that first book, it had to Be youe, Right, is about. She inherits the team and then it's like, well, can she succeed?

Jennifer Prokop (44:20)

Well, but Susan is very smart about how much sport she puts in there. I think, like, actually, the ticking clock that I was for Susan, I think is really interesting is Heaven Texas. Because the ticking clock is the filming of the movie. Right. And so once the movie is over, then Gracie has to either get hired by the company or go back to Ohio. And so that the ticking clock is very explicitly about, like, the movie being filmed and how, you know, it's like a summer. And so that is, like, an example to me that's, like, really interesting because it's the one where we're very. She's very clear on what the stakes are for her. And Bobby Tom does not understand. He is not on the same ticking clock that she's on.

Sarah McLean (45:08)

Yep.

Jennifer Prokop (45:08)

And I think that's partly why it's, like, so incredibly effective.

Sarah McLean (45:12)

Yes. A thousand percent. I mean, I would also say that in our old school category, romance, we talked about. Shit. What was the name of that book? Wait, just give me a second to think. Deborah Smith's Hot Touch. Where. And this is also a movie set where the heroine speaks, can communicate with animals. She's an animal telepath. And there's like, there's a dog or something in this book that's not behaving properly. And, like, she gets hired into this, like, house in Louisiana where, you know, she has to basically communicate with a dog who's. Who's, like, sad because his girlfriend is chained up in the house next door. Listen, it's all. It's all great. And then she falls for this, like, grumpy. The grumpy owner of this home, because. And again, like, when these two separate, there is no way this animal empath and this, like, grumpy New Orleans guy are ever gonna see each other. This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Lume Gummies. Consistent, mellow, and super delicious, Lume Gummies are specifically designed to make you feel good, not stoned. Whether you're looking for an end of day de stressor, a midday mood boost, or help getting the best sleep ever, Lume Gummies has a strain that's right for you.

Jennifer Prokop (46:38)

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Sarah McLean (47:24)

Nice. Well, if you would like to try Lumi Gummies, you can do that. They are available nationwide. You can go to lumigummies.com, that's L U M I gummies.com and use the code faded mates for 30 off your order. Again, that's L U M I Gummies.com and the code is Faded Mates. Thanks to Lumi Gummies for sponsoring this week's episode category. Does ticking clocks really great? Because the tight. You have to do it in 55, 000 words. So, you know, we're only together for five days is, you know, oops, I got pregnant.

Jennifer Prokop (48:04)

That's a big ticking clock in romance. I don't want to talk about it.

Sarah McLean (48:07)

Yeah, it's really. It's tricky. When we decided this a couple days ago.

Jennifer Prokop (48:10)

Yeah.

Sarah McLean (48:10)

And I thought, oh, like, there must be some that I think are, like, the best, most masterful. And I'm sure there are. But, like, I don't know that I'm.

Jennifer Prokop (48:17)

I would say White out by Adrian.

Sarah McLean (48:19)

I actually didn't put that on my list because we talk about it so much, but obviously. But yeah, but I mean, if you're trying to understand the concept that is to read.

Jennifer Prokop (48:27)

Yeah. Because it literally, once they go on, I mean, there's bad guys after them and they have to make it essentially 300 miles and they have 21 days worth of food in Antarctica on a sled. And they're doing it on foot.

Sarah McLean (48:41)

Yep.

Jennifer Prokop (48:41)

And once they start and it's like, it's like, pretty far into the book. I was actually really interested. It's like about a quarter of the way into the book. It's chapter 15. Then she starts marking off this at the top of the chapter. Right. Like, think about, like a movie where it's like, you know, base station, blah, blah, blah. Right. Yeah. It's like day one, 302 miles to Volkov station, 21 days of food remaining. And so once you get to that, you are on the. Literally on the clock, and all you can think about is how are they going to make it. Because every single time they don't get as far as they need to, or, you know, there's some sort of setback. It's. You think about how much food they have, and it is. To me, when you said ticking clack, this was the first book I thought of.

Sarah McLean (49:32)

Like, it's interesting you bring that up because I have a book in my head and it's one of the situations where. I'm sorry, everybody. I know that we're still trying to find the book where the lady's pregnant in the, like, thatched cottage. And, like, I, like, listen, that's a. That's an old faded mates deep cut. But there is a book in my head where they are basically certain they are going to die.

Jennifer Prokop (49:54)

Yeah.

Sarah McLean (49:54)

And I can't. It's not white out. And I cannot, Like, I've literally for three days been trying to summon it from my Inside, my brain. But this is the most emotion. Like, if you can think of, it's that moment in Toy Story 3 where they're all. No, they're, like, headed into the incinerator and, like, it's burning down there and you're like. And they all end up just, like, holding each other's hands because, like. And it's really, like, It's Toy Story 3 and I'm, like, weeping.

Jennifer Prokop (50:31)

Right.

Sarah McLean (50:32)

Because it is that sort of the intensity of, like, well, this is it. Right? There's. Yeah. We're at the end. And I think, you know books like Waking up with the Duke.

Jennifer Prokop (50:44)

Right.

Sarah McLean (50:45)

Like, the emotional agony of now it's the end of our 30 days together and we have to separate despite the fact that now we love each other more than we ever did. These kinds of. Just, like, anything that amps up the emotion here ends up being like, the clock just ends up being such a powerful tool.

Jennifer Prokop (51:13)

Yeah.

Sarah McLean (51:13)

You know. Yes. We're together for 30 days. Or, like, you know, I think about, you know, Judith McNaught's perfect, does this. He's, like, escaped from prison and they know, like, yeah, there he's gonna get caught. Like, that's gonna be the end of their time together. Right. That adds forced proximity into the M, too, because they're trapped in a snowstorm. But like, these. These. These kinds of books where there is just a very. The reader is absolutely convinced these two cannot be together in the end.

Jennifer Prokop (51:48)

I think you've already realized we're gonna, like, talk about books that, like, we've mentioned before or whatever. And it's funny because I of. So, of course, I was like, you Know what have I been reading recently? And a bunch of them, I think, use a ticking clock really effectively to essentially, it's like, okay, remember those Fast and the Furious movies where they're just, like, driving really fast and then they, like, press the button and it goes faster? Because here's the thing, okay, Whiteout is brilliant, but I think it is very difficult to come up with a premise where the ticking clock is literally three quarters of the book.

Sarah McLean (52:28)

Well, that's because you believe that they're going to die at the end.

Jennifer Prokop (52:31)

I mean, like, there's ticking clocks where it's not quite that, like, hot, right? Like the house party or whatever. Whatever. But I think a lot of times you can just use ticking clock. So instead it's like, that's road trips. Road trips, right? Like, it's not the only lever, right? So in, like, last week, I was talking about that book fiasco, right? Where like, they have to find, like, one guy who's, like, kidnapped a child, and there's like a time stamp on that. But then along comes. You have to turn in this guy you've been working with to me, because he's wanted. So that's like. So. So it's like two ticking clocks, but they are different. One is about her emotional connection to this man, and then one is the external plot, which also has an emotional connection. Right. But they're like. And that, I think, too, is also really interesting, like, being pulled between these two things that are happening that are, like, kind of racing along, that you. And you don't want either of them to happen. So, I mean, in that case, though, like, I was kind of like, wow, it was already tension filled. But. But, like, the tension wasn't between the two main characters that gets installed by. You're gonna have to turn in your lover. And I think that's back to, like, Heaven, Texas. Like, if they're on different ticking clocks, we have to understand how and why that makes sense.

Sarah McLean (53:49)

I think it does. I also think that another way that that one can work, that sort of external ticking clock works often in historicals, although it can happen. It can be in contemporaries, too, is one of them is getting married to another person.

Jennifer Prokop (54:06)

Yeah. Right.

Sarah McLean (54:07)

And, like, so there is sort of this sense of. And, like, don't mistake the possibility that one of them is getting married to another person. And it's not necessarily at the beginning of the book, right? So, like, in my book, one good Earl deserves a lover. Right? The clock starts to tick halfway through when he is forced to engage to be engaged to like the bad guy's daughter, Right?

Jennifer Prokop (54:36)

Yeah.

Sarah McLean (54:36)

So like you can. They're deployed in different ways. Not. I mean, but then you think of something like Diana Quincy's her night with a Duke. Another book we did a deep dive on where like, he's engaged to her stepdaughter and like, she didn't know when they met. Met, but like the step, that relationship, that wedding is looming.

Jennifer Prokop (54:58)

Okay, I want to talk about Along Came Amor by Alexis Daria, which doesn't come up out until May, but I just read it. I. We loved the first two books. I. It's, you know, I'm sure people are really excited. I know. That's why I like, I was like, I have to read this, right? So the main character is Ava. She falls in love. She like meets Roman and essentially it's like a one night stand, right? And so she's just like, I can't do anything more. She's just gotten divorced. Like, the day she meets him, her divorce is finalized and she's like, I'm gonna like, embrace new Ava. She goes down to this bar, she's at like a hotel for a. A teaching conference. And she meets him and is kind of like, why not? Like, why not? I deserve this. Right? And then he gives her her number. He gives her his number, but she's like, I. One night only, buddy. I can't. You know what I mean? Like, this was great, but. It was great, but. And then they like kind of drift into like an affair. She kind of gives in and like, kind of texts him when she's feeling like, I think another thing comes up in her life and she's like, maybe I can call Roman. Anyway, what happens is eventually is they realize that they are. He's the best man and she's the maid of honor at this upcoming wedding. She didn't even know that he knew Jasmine. It's Jasmine's wedding from book one. It's Ashton's, like, best friend who he had been out of touch with for a long time. That's why, like, Ava never even heard this guy's name mentioned. And she. The part that was, I thought was really interesting is like the ticking clock is about her feelings. Because Ava does not want to tell anyone in her family or her cousins that she is with Roman. But, like, they're in a wedding together. Everyone's gonna fucking figure it out. And Roman is like. And then Ashton figures it out and Ashton's like, you cannot ask me to keep this from my soon to be wife. Like, we're getting Married. I can't start it by, like, keeping these secrets. And so basically, what Roman and Ava talk about is you have to tell Jasmine by the wedding. And that then becomes the ticking clock, Right?

Sarah McLean (57:13)

Yep.

Jennifer Prokop (57:14)

Is we. You have to tell her. I. It cannot be that, like, we go to this. You know what I mean? And it's. It was. What was really interesting, Sarah, is I. Even though I deeply understood Ava's reluctance to let her family know. Right. Like, they were pretty awful to her when the divorce happened, and they weren't really supportive. And, you know, there's a lot of. Of, like, teasing framed as, you know, it's love, but it, like, is teasing. And she really struggles with that and, like, kind of her place in the family. And she at one point is like, okay, I'm gonna go tell her. And she cannot do it. Cannot bring herself to do it. And it's really. Was sort of fascinating to me because it felt like it was clearly a ticking clock, but it just felt deeply emotional.

Sarah McLean (58:08)

Yeah.

Jennifer Prokop (58:08)

Because here is a character who is like, I know that it's wrong to ask people to keep these secrets from me on one hand, but I cannot tell people. Cause I'm so afraid of how they'll treat me once they know. And it just was, like, I thought, incredibly well done. But an example of, like, a tick and clock where, like, this person feels like there is an anvil over their head. And we, as the reader are like, like, you're not in danger. That's a paper tiger. It's okay. This is your family. They're gonna love you. This is Jasmine no matter what.

Sarah McLean (58:46)

Yeah.

Jennifer Prokop (58:47)

And it's. It was. It. So anyway, it just was like, a. And then to see Roman be, like, honestly kind of hurt by it. Like, I am in love with you. Why won't you tell your family about me? I am not. Like, I'm a good guy.

Sarah McLean (59:02)

Yeah.

Jennifer Prokop (59:02)

And so it really was an example. I thought of how it was like a ticking clock. Yes. An external clock. The wedding. But all of the feelings about it were internal.

Sarah McLean (59:16)

Yeah.

Jennifer Prokop (59:16)

And I thought it was super effective.

Sarah McLean (59:19)

Yeah. I like that a lot. This is a very good way to deploy Friends to Lovers. It's probably one of the only ways I'm willing to accept Friends to Lovers. Is this, like, kind of idea that, like, these two people who really like each other, like, feel like they have to hide from an external force and. Because, again, like, one of the things that I complain about with Friends to Lovers is that often there is no conflict at all. Like, why you already like Each other. Everybody knows your friends. Like, what is the thing that is preventing you from just making a go of it? But in that kind of structure, in this kind of structure, it can really work. This week's episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by Lucy Score, author of Story of My Life.

Jennifer Prokop (60:12)

Well, Sarah, if Name is destiny, then the place you would go. If you were a struggling romance novelist who could not, like, write the next book, you had a bad breakup, and you have writer's block like nobody's ever seen before. You also would go to Story Lake. And in this town, Hazel Hart is. She's like, I'm gonna leave Manhatt behind and buy this historic home online for Story Lake, Pennsylvania. Only once she gets there, she finds out that this town and the house she bought are kind of a wreck, right? The biggest employer has shut down. People are out of work, and, you know, her house is full of, like, raccoons, and it's just a mess. So she's gonna find herself a contractor and fix up her house and fix up her life. And her contractor is Campbell Bishop, gorgeous. He is going to fix up this new spider museum she's calling house and also agrees, for research purposes, to do a little bit of fake dating. And so now, all of a sudden, Hazel isn't just writing a romance novel, she is living in one. So she's gotta, like, get this book finished, lock it up with this man, and also earn her happily ever after.

Sarah McLean (61:28)

Listen, Lucy. Scorn knows how to write a book, everybody. You're gonna have a great time. If you are looking for a deluxe special, there is a print version of this book available wherever you get your print books. It has beautiful designed edges and glossy covers and chapter art and a map of the town. You can get that anywhere you get print books, but you can also get it in ebook or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited. Thanks to Lucy Score for sponsoring this week's episode. There are a couple of books that I thought about. I know that you talked about Curvy Girl Summer, but I. By Danielle Allen. Right? You. You've talked about that book, right?

Jennifer Prokop (62:11)

Yeah, Last. Last summer, I think. Yeah.

Sarah McLean (62:14)

So the structure of this book is the main character, aaliyah, is turning 30. So here's another way. Like, okay, obviously, when I made. I made, like, a list immediately. Like, I just sat down. And sometimes this is. And I'm sure you do this, too. Like, we come up with our idea, and then I just, like, verbally vomited just every book I could. Right? And they were the first, say, 15 were historicals. Because I was. Because it. There are so many ways that historicals, like, deploy this in so many different directions. And then I was like, okay, what about contemporaries? And one of the things that I love about this is so essentially, Aaliyah is saying she's turning 30, and she's like, I am going to, like, find myself and a man by the time I'm going to have a date to my 30th birthday party. Right. So there it is. Like, there's our end game. There's our end goal. We know the 30th birthday party is going to be. It is not a year. It's not like a whole season. It's like, I'm going to get there. And we know that third, the. The book is gonna come to a. A climax at the 30th birthday. I. I see your face. I see your face. I heard it. Fine. I heard it.

Jennifer Prokop (63:31)

I'm fine.

Sarah McLean (63:32)

I'm fine. You said climax. So what's really interesting about this, though, is that. So we see her sort of. This is another kind of friends to lovers. Friends to loversy books.

Jennifer Prokop (63:47)

Right?

Sarah McLean (63:47)

There's a. They're sort of.

Jennifer Prokop (63:50)

She.

Sarah McLean (63:50)

We see her, like, misstep. She has, like, a bunch of failings. Like, she tries, like, it's largely online dating. Right. But there's, like, a local bartender where she, like, often meets these people. And Ahmad, the bartender is like, you know, around and in. In. In the world with her. Right. He's, like, seeing her, you know, come up empty every time. And so. And it's just this, like, very great way of deploying a ticking clock without deploying it as, like, an intense. At the end of it, we're gonna die.

Jennifer Prokop (64:33)

Right?

Sarah McLean (64:34)

Right. Even though, like. And what's interesting is it. I think it just speaks to, like, Danielle Allen being very talented because I actually don't think it's very easy to structure a book this way. And let's, like, continually remind us that there is an important ending that we are working toward without some kind of, like, almost over the top conflict.

Jennifer Prokop (64:58)

Right? Right.

Sarah McLean (64:59)

So that's Curvy Girl Summer.

Jennifer Prokop (65:01)

Right? Well, and I think, like, the reason we thought it was, like, worthwhile to talk about, like, just. And it made me think of this as you were talking about Curvy Girl Summer is like. Because I don't want people listening to think, like, oh, well, this isn't a useful craft tool for me. If I'm not writing, they're gonna die in Antarctica. Right?

Sarah McLean (65:20)

No, but what's interesting, Jen, is I Would say, like, I mean, listen, 30%, I think is a reasonable percentage of recent contemporaries have deployed fake dating. Yeah, Fake dating does not. Listen to me. Does not work. Work without a ticking clock.

Jennifer Prokop (65:43)

Yeah, that's what I wanted to say too. I literally wrote fake dating on mine does not work.

Sarah McLean (65:48)

And sometimes it's as simple as like, you know, I have to go like, okay, Nana Malone, I'm just gonna keep talking about books. Yeah. Nana Malone's Sexy and Stilettos is structurally so you'll see all the things about Nana's books that are in here. There's like a mystery, there's a little bit of like, like what's, you know, some bad guy action happening in here. But in Sexy and Stilettos, it's like the heroine has come home, she's found her sister in bed with her fiance. They are about to get married. The, the sister and the fiance now are getting married. Her father has like, fired her from the like, family business because she's like, made it all difficult and she still has to attend this wedding. This is a classic fake dating setup, right? Like I need a date to my sister's wedding, of course dialed up to 11 by Nana because the sister's marrying the ex fiance, right? Like, and there are all these other external factors going on. They have. She runs into this man who classic Nana is like a billionaire. But like, she thinks he's a wall, he thinks he's a bartender. She like convinces him to be her fake date date to this wedding. And it's 10 days from now, right? And like, there it is, 10 days. That's the structure. We know it's going to end at the end of 10 days. And we know that at the end of 10 days there are all these other things that are going to like, well, if they even make it to 10 days, right? Because Nana's also deploying like there's a baddie who's after the, you know, like there are all these other things that are happening externally that are like threatening the successful 10 day fake relationship internally and externally, right? Because on top of it, this hero, like doesn't believe in love or whatever, right? Like has classic romance hero, you know, illness, so and so like this. But this is a good example of like fake dating is one piece of a much larger, you know, structure that does Deploy. We have 10D I.

Jennifer Prokop (67:52)

Another one that I thought was really effective at like a ticking clock was Fan Service by Rosie Dannon. So the beginning of this book is that Devin, it's great. He was the star of like an X Files type TV show. And he. The show is over and he is now kind of like, basically like a little bit of a pathetic loser. Like, this was like the high point of his career. He did it. It was like a long show. 10 years maybe or whatever. And what happens is, is that he, in the show was like an FBI agent who was also like a werewolf or something. And he is, like, desperate to bring this show back because he's like, no one will hire me, and if we revive the show, then maybe I will, you know, kind of find my career again. He's a bit of a himbo, but also, like, really starts the book in a low place. So what happens is one night at the full moon, he actually turns into a werewolf and he does not know why. And he ends up essentially, he's like, this is like the himbo part of him. He's like, googling like, I turned into a werewolf. And he kind of trips into a. This is like. It's so great. It's such a great premise. And he trips into a. Essentially emailing this woman who was like, the. Who, like, ran his. The fan club for this show. So he sends an email which is like. Gets forwarded, right? Like, essentially, like, it's one of those things where, like, it gets forwarded into Alex's actual inbox. She lives in Florida and she's like, wait, this dumbass is, like, contacting me? And she, like, for kind of personal reasons, kind of has never liked him or, like, has decided. Decided to not like him. But she loved her fandom, so he shows up in her town, essentially, like, you have to figure out why I'm not a werewolf anymore. And the ticking clock is the next full moon. Perfect, right? Perfect, right? We only have however many days left now to figure this out because I'm going to turn into a werewolf again.

Sarah McLean (70:15)

Paranormal does this really well, right? Like, you think about, um, I mean, like, basically every werewolf book, right? Like, or I mean, Kressley, for example, with the, like a, like, on the full moon, having to, like, mark their mates, right? And so it's like, well, we better figure out how this is gonna happen before. I mean, it's like, structurally it lends itself to that. Some sort of, like, transformation.

Jennifer Prokop (70:42)

Exactly, exactly. And so, like, this is the. The. This is the ticking clock for him. And the thing that is, like, great about the book again, is like, the stakes are different. He is like, I can't do this again. Someone caught him, like, transforming and, like, put it on, like, TikTok or Whatever. And they thought that he was doing it to, like, just gain attention. Like, they.

Sarah McLean (71:03)

You know what I mean?

Jennifer Prokop (71:04)

Like, look at how pathetic he is if he was trying to do this. And so she. Alex, for Alex, is essentially, like, so steeped in the lore of this show and also works at, like, a vet. And that's why she's like, okay, sure, I'll help you figure this out, or whatever. It's great. But, like, she really. It takes her a while to kind of believe that he is not fucking with her. Right. So the whole premise is, like, for him, there is nothing more terrifying than this thing coming at him.

Sarah McLean (71:36)

Yep.

Jennifer Prokop (71:37)

And it. She doesn't even really think it's real. So I think it's also a really good example of, like, the clock is ticking for one of them, but the other one is kind of like, meh, whatever. Come on.

Sarah McLean (71:50)

Yeah.

Jennifer Prokop (71:50)

And so them working to figure this out, and, like, all of the things that they have to do to figure it out is actually. And how, like, then the secret of, like, wait, how does he actually turn into a werewolf? I think that's one of the greatest things about this book for me, is you kind of forget, like, wait, why is this happening? And how is it mapping on exactly to the lore of the show? Like, what is going on?

Sarah McLean (72:12)

Yeah, she sorts that out.

Jennifer Prokop (72:15)

Yeah, they do. By the end, they sort out a lot. It's. It's really. I think, really, again, like a really clever twist on the ticking clock. Because it's. I mean, the ticking clock is. He's not thinking. He doesn't think he's gonna die, but he is like, I don't know what's happening to me, and I don't like it. Right. Yeah, yeah, it's great.

Sarah McLean (72:35)

So, structurally, I think there. I think ticking clocks occur in. In an. In a variety of different ways.

Jennifer Prokop (72:41)

Right.

Sarah McLean (72:41)

So we've talked about fake relationship. We've talked about. Well, we talked about house parties, vaguely, but I think, like, a good example of that would be. And again, I know I've talked about this a million times, but Lisa Clippis is, again, the magic is a really terrific version of this where, like, yeah, you know, there are a group of people who've come to visit, like, a country house in England. The one of them is the former, like, stable boy at this house who was in love with the, like, daughter of the Earl, I think. I think it's an Earl. Right. That's what Westcliffe is. And he was pushed out. There's sort of, like, this mystery of what happened in the past. And now he's like gone to America, made his fortune. He's returned for full on revenge. And he's just there for like the short. It's like a week. Like, it's such a tight time frame. And like, what is great about this is Claypus. There's so, I mean, like, this is all. This is the quietest, loudest book there is in romance. Like, it's great way to say it.

Jennifer Prokop (73:52)

I love it.

Sarah McLean (73:53)

It's so internal, like the conflict between them. Like they are so desperately in love with each other. And of course, like, there's a reason why he was pushed out. There's a reason why she tried to find him. Like, there are all these sort of like really rough things in their backstory that like, make it so emotional. But ultimately you are just driven to be obsessed with this book because she keeps thinking, like, if I can just survive one week with him under my roof, then he'll leave forever. Yeah, I can just go back to being normal. Normal and not loving him so desperately, but not being able to have him. And so like this idea is in your head. You're like this all. Like it's a ticking clock almost in reverse. Like she just has to survive it.

Jennifer Prokop (74:48)

Yes. Right, Right.

Sarah McLean (74:50)

And it's so well done. And then I think forced proximity does this. Right? Like any time there is like a snowstorm or a. Like, you know.

Jennifer Prokop (75:02)

Yeah. Can I talk about one that I thought was really great at this? Because it, it's more than like, it's. It was forced proximity and it was like really interesting to me. And so the book is called One Last Night by Lauren Ford. And what it is, is, okay, so her family has owned a. A, like a really popular kind of restaurant called, I think like the Shark Biscuit. It's like a. On like the. It's in Australia and it's like on the water on this like, warf or whatever. And it is the last night the restaurant will be open. So it's like.

Sarah McLean (75:44)

Oh, yeah, you've talked with this one before. It's.

Jennifer Prokop (75:46)

Yeah, Yeah, I think so. So it's like final night that the restaurant will be open. And so Agnes. Agnes's family owns the restaurant and the love interest is the cook and his name is Harrison. And they have hated each other forever. But it's like the last night at the restaurant. And so like. And the thing that happens, it's like so brilliant is a huge rainstorm sweeps in, like torrential fucking rain. And so all of the people who are in the restaurant, Restaurant And Agnes and Harrison are essentially, like, trapped in there overnight because they can't get out. And so the restaurant. So. And, you know, like, this is it. They're never going to see each other again after tomorrow because Harrison will no longer work there and her family will no longer own this restaurant. And instead. So it's like the whole book takes place in 24 hours.

Sarah McLean (76:42)

Oh, so good.

Jennifer Prokop (76:44)

Right? It's really.

Sarah McLean (76:45)

And look, this hard to do.

Jennifer Prokop (76:47)

It is hard to pull off. But I think one of the things that is really smart when you're doing this, and I think you just. And this is what made me think of it when you mentioned again, the magic is the shorter the time frame, if you are going to pull it off, is often when you were talking about friends, lovers. They have to know each other already.

Sarah McLean (77:06)

Yeah. I mean, this is also. We talk about this all the time when you write a novella.

Jennifer Prokop (77:09)

Like, novellas. Yeah.

Sarah McLean (77:10)

They gotta know each other.

Jennifer Prokop (77:11)

Yeah. So in this case, like. Right. It turns out that, like, Harrison, of course, has, like, sort of been in love with her and, you know, she had another boyfriend and all this stuff, but, like, the. They see each other in a different way because everything goes wrong. Like, her ex shows up, all this stuff. But it really is like one of those things where the storm is. Right. If it was just like the last night at this restaurant, that's one thing. But the fact that the storm is what kind of traps them all is the part that really makes it, I think, work too. Right. So you can add some extra layer to like, ramp up the. In this case, it literally kind of does feel like danger at one point. Like they're like, bailing water out of the restaurant. You know what I mean? This week's episode of Faded Mates is brought to you by T.J. alexander, author of A Gentleman's Gentleman.

Sarah McLean (78:13)

Jen, like all great historical heroes, Lord Christopher Eden has a problem. And that is that he lives like.

Jennifer Prokop (78:23)

It'S always like his father. Am I right?

Sarah McLean (78:26)

It's. It is. It is romance law. But we're gonna get there. Okay, here's the thing. Christopher lives in the middle of nowhere, like, in the backwoods of backwoods. No interest in society out there, far from the prying eyes of the tall. And if he had his way, he would just spend his whole life, like, hanging out with his cook and his butler, and that would be that. Problem is romance law. And his late. His late father's will has come to pass, and he has been told that he has to find a wife by the end of the season. If he intends to keep the family fortune. My absolute favorite plot problem is Jen. Christopher is not attracted to women. And so there's. He's keenly aware of the fact that, like, he can find a wife, but he's not gonna be able to keep her happy. So nevertheless, there is an inheritance on the line. And so off to London we go. Enter James Harding, Christopher's new distractingly handsome, rigidly traditional valet.

Jennifer Prokop (79:27)

Oh, I love it already.

Sarah McLean (79:28)

I'm dead of excitement. After a rocky start between them, these two strike up a fragile friendship. And what ends up happening is, despite the fact that Christopher's on the hunt for a wife, they are super duper attracted to each other. And this one is going to be dry and bantery and a slow burn. Delicious romance. If you've ever read a TJ Alexander book, you know that they deliver. This one has a gorgeous, nuanced portrait of trans identity and big secrets that both of these characters are keeping that are going to end in a delicious, delicious explosion of romance.

Jennifer Prokop (80:09)

I love it already.

Sarah McLean (80:10)

And if you're in New York or around New York for Trans Day of visibility, which is March 31, I will be moderating a conversation between TJ and Joanna Lowell, who wrote a sure thing last year about transness and romance and why it's great.

Jennifer Prokop (80:27)

And where is that happening, Sarah?

Sarah McLean (80:29)

That is at the Astoria Bookshop in Queens. And again, we'll put links in show notes, but you can join us if you're nearby. It's going to be a great conversation.

Jennifer Prokop (80:37)

Perfect. So this A Gentleman's Gentleman is available in print, ebook and audio. And if you click on the chapter title right now, you can be taken to buy the book. Thanks to TJ Alexander for sponsoring this week's episode.

Sarah McLean (80:51)

What when you start to actually think about how the, how these books, the best ones work, you know, you can't, you can't discount the. The fact that there are that mapping one of these tropes with others just like, amps up the ticking clock, right? So like forced proximity and road trips go so well together. Like I've. I'm on the record for believing that like Joanna Shoop's Tycoon is one of the greatest novellas ever written. And it's a road trip on a train and the heroine's a perfume girl who's like, witnessed a murder and she goes running from a New York City City department store to Penn Station and gets herself on a train that is owned in the private rail car of the president of the bank of Manhattan, right? And then they Are like headed to St. Louis together, stuck in this car together. And so you sort of know there's like the ticking clock of the bad guys coming after them. There's a ticking clock of the train ride for them falling in love. And then of course there's like the force proximity of it all. And so I think, um, I think once you are aware of ticking clock as a concept, you will start to see it everywhere because it is a really solid way of just like tightening all, like closing all the walls in.

Jennifer Prokop (82:14)

Right, Right. Well, and I think I've been thinking a lot about what you said. I as we've been talking about how effective it is in historicals. But you know, I think one of the things, the reason I was really found myself thinking of them in contemporaries is because people seem to have a really hard time building conflict in a contemporary. And this is a way that you can do it, right. So I just recently talked about and really loved into the woods by Jenny Holiday and the ticking clock that I thought was. So they're at this camp together. And the thing that's really smart that she does is like the camp, camp has like two sessions, right? Like it's like three weeks and then there's like a break and then there's another three week session. And in this book she is only going to be doing their teaching at session one while he has committed to both. And so the thing that's like really smart here is she's going to leave camp in a couple weeks and he will have to go back. And so you find yourself really thinking like well, how much, how much time, right? Like they have to make the most of the time in the first session and then there is going to have to be a break that happens. But because it's just a couple of weeks, right? Like not a whole year or whatever, I thought it was really effective for thinking like their dread about that happening, right? And she can't stay, she has to go. She has like big things happening at her business, right. And so she cannot just be like, okay, well we're having a great time banging all over this camp. Like I have to stay, right? And so she. There's a. And he is like, you know, really struggling with like finding himself or whatever. And he is like not, you know, not going to leave the camp. So I thought that that was. I really found myself thinking like that's a good example of, of it's a different clock for both of them, right. And that is creating some tension where we know that this has to Come to an end. Right?

Sarah McLean (84:25)

Yeah. I mean, I think to. I think your, your point about it's very difficult to make the clock 80% of the book. Right?

Jennifer Prokop (84:36)

Yeah.

Sarah McLean (84:36)

And, and, and I think that that is very true. And so, you know, my suggestion to write writers is don't worry about like making it 80% of the book. Sometimes deploy it in the mid, in the midway, like I said. But I did say category does this well. And I just want to name check another storm book that I think is a. Is like a very. Listen, weather is a great way to do this.

Jennifer Prokop (85:00)

Weather. Yes.

Sarah McLean (85:02)

Snowed in. There's a reason why we love a Snowden romance. Right. But I want to talk about Jules Bennett's One Stormy Night, which is a design buyer that I downloaded like yesterday and I just tore it through.

Jennifer Prokop (85:15)

Okay.

Sarah McLean (85:15)

The heroine is a plus size model and she has been hired. Listen, this is romance business. She has been hired to do a photo shoot for a magazine that's owned by like a billionaire.

Jennifer Prokop (85:26)

Sure.

Sarah McLean (85:26)

And where is this photo shoot, Jen? His house. The billionaire's house, of course. And there's a rainstorm and like, it's like the bridge to the house gets washed out in this brainstorm. I mean, this is like the gothic est, the most gothic contemporary you can come up with. Listen, Harlequin, no notes. And like, basically they're. They're like stuck in this house until somebody can fix the bridge and get them out of there. Listen, like, it's great. She is. And so it's just the two of them sort of rattling around in this big old mansion house. Uh, and the end it. And like, she's like so committed. Like, she needs to get this photo shoot. She needs to be like, she needs to, to land this deal so that she can have like the future that she has dreamed of.

Jennifer Prokop (86:27)

Right.

Sarah McLean (86:27)

Like, this is a woman who has a very clear future for herself. But it's like there. It's great because like, she's always wearing makeup. Like, she refuses to let it. Like, she's like, I am going to look like the most beautiful model there is, like, all the time. And he's like, you realize we're just like in my house just hanging around and it's great. And they fall for each other and they are just like. And he is like, I. He's basically like, I'm sort of your boss, so like, I don't think I can. And she's like, okay, well, I'm sort of your employee, so I don't think we should. And it's the Will they? Won't they? But it's this sort of stress of once the bridge gets fixed, she goes back to being just like a girl who's trying to be a plus size model and he goes back to being romance billionaire. So, like, how will they ever survive back in the world? And listen, everybody who listens to podcast knows that I love, like, billionaire normie, celebrity normie. Like, I just, I love that structure because I think there is a very real sense of like, your life is so drastically different than my life. I won't fit into it. So, you know, this kind of like, clock helps, you know, move everything forward along with the, like, now you're forced to be in this house together in the storm and by yourselves. The other thing is, we haven't talked about his threat of discovery story.

Jennifer Prokop (88:00)

Yes.

Sarah McLean (88:01)

Which I think is. I mean, well, this is like the.

Jennifer Prokop (88:04)

Fake dating, like you sort of said.

Sarah McLean (88:05)

Yeah, but I don't mean fake dating. I mean, like, literally there's some going down and like, so the, the immediate book that I thought of was Sophie Jordan's Sins of a Wicked Duke, which remains. Listen, I love Sophie's books really a whole lot, but this remains my favorite in a lot of ways. The heroine of this book is like, undercover as a footman in this duke's house, trying to like, find some shit.

Jennifer Prokop (88:33)

Sure.

Sarah McLean (88:33)

Like, I like, it's really shenanigans. But she has, like, gotten a job as a footman. So she is. This is, Listen, if you like, disguised in, you know, trousers. Heroin described disguised in trousers. Like, this book is for you. And there's this sense that, like, there is no way this girl is gonna not get found out and.

Jennifer Prokop (88:53)

Right.

Sarah McLean (88:54)

And that's a great, like, this is an old school trope. You don't see it very much anymore for all the reasons that you don't see it very much anymore. But it still hits if that's where you came through. And like, that sense of like, the ticking clock is actually in the reader's head.

Jennifer Prokop (89:09)

Yeah.

Sarah McLean (89:10)

Is a really interesting way that it works. Also, like, the characters themselves have no knowledge of the ticking clock. Clock.

Jennifer Prokop (89:19)

Yeah, that's. That is something I did want to talk about. Right. Like, do they have to know? Right. Yeah, I think we have to.

Sarah McLean (89:26)

And I think when we think to ourselves, oh, no, what happens when they find out? Right. So it's, you know, he took this. This, this sort of. Is a. It's an offshoot of ticking glock because it's. Yeah, you know what's going to happen when he finds out that, like, when she finds out that he is only dating her on a dare or, like, for money.

Jennifer Prokop (89:50)

Right, right.

Sarah McLean (89:51)

Like, what's going to happen when he finds out she's not actually a man, she's a woman in disguise as a footman. Right. What's going to happen when in Beverly Jenkins is to catch a raven. Like, you know, they're caught trying to steal the Declaration of Independence. Like, they're kind of. There are these sort of moments where in your head, you're like, oh, no, it's going to happen.

Jennifer Prokop (90:15)

Right. But it's not about time. It's about discovery. Right.

Sarah McLean (90:18)

Fear of. Threat of discovery.

Jennifer Prokop (90:21)

Okay, that's. Actually, maybe I'll just ask that as a question to you. What's the IAD book that has the biggest ticking clock to you?

Sarah McLean (90:28)

Well, there's the one where they're on the Amazon going to get Dorada's ring. Right.

Jennifer Prokop (90:33)

Well, I was going to say. Or Lothaire. Right. Because he just called me Dorada Ring. But I was like. Yeah. Because in Lothaire, once he finds the ring and makes the wish, Ellie will be gone. Right.

Sarah McLean (90:52)

Yeah.

Jennifer Prokop (90:53)

He will turn her.

Sarah McLean (90:55)

And that does have that scene that I talked about where it's like, they're gonna die.

Jennifer Prokop (90:58)

Right.

Sarah McLean (90:59)

Like, she's like, don't. Like, don't send me away.

Jennifer Prokop (91:05)

Yes. Right, right. And it is literally life and death for her. And the plot of the book is her convincing him that, like, he can't use the ring that way when he finds it. Right, Right.

Sarah McLean (91:20)

Because it's interesting. I mean, this goes back to what I said about paranormal, Right. Like Chrisley in the, like, Amazing Race movement of ied. Like, that's obviously ticking clock.

Jennifer Prokop (91:30)

Because, like, yes, right.

Sarah McLean (91:33)

One of you is going to win.

Jennifer Prokop (91:34)

Right, Right.

Sarah McLean (91:35)

But that's. And that works. But, no, she ultimately levels up and levels up and levels up.

Jennifer Prokop (91:40)

Yeah, yeah.

Sarah McLean (91:42)

To. And now. And arguably the entire series is on the ticking clock of the assession.

Jennifer Prokop (91:48)

Right.

Sarah McLean (91:48)

Like, what's going to happen? But who knows?

Jennifer Prokop (91:52)

But does it ever really happen? Exactly. Right. Are they even in it yet? I don't even know.

Sarah McLean (91:57)

Right. So, I mean, I. Yeah, I think. Well, as you know, I think you and I feel we differ slightly. That Gareth and Lucia book, for me, is, like, one of my top tier. One of my top tier IOD books. And in part because I really love a romance, a road trip, you know, also for those of you who are, again, I always say, like, this is what happens to me in my conflict workshop, too, where I'm like, I'm going to talk about books that like, don't have heavy conflict too, so that you can see that. And, and then it's like really? But the, the, the, the easiest examples are the ones that are, but there are two that I think are really. I, they're okay. Two things, I think Christina Lauren does a great job deploying ticking clocks all in a lot of their books. But I would say something wilder, which is also a road trip Romance is a good example of a ticking clock that does not, is not life or death. Like you're. The book, to Jen's point, runs 90%. Is the actual clock ticking?

Jennifer Prokop (92:58)

Yes.

Sarah McLean (92:59)

And like things happen over the course of the book. But ultimately these, this, the romance itself is like a much quieter. There is no sort of threat that they won't by the end. There is no. Like, this is one of those. This is also a book I talk about like there's no third act breakup in this book. In this book, it's just like the two of them, they're tested. It's just sort of a sense of like, well, who will we be when this is all over? Over.

Jennifer Prokop (93:23)

Right.

Sarah McLean (93:23)

Together. Right. But I want to talk about Kate's best of no Luck of the draw.

Jennifer Prokop (93:32)

Yeah.

Sarah McLean (93:33)

Which is fake relationship. And like the fake relationship book I hold up as like one of the best.

Jennifer Prokop (93:39)

It's perfect. Yeah.

Sarah McLean (93:41)

But also that's a ticking clock because he's going, the, the reason why the fake relationship exists is because the hero is attempting, wanting to inherit. Like, basically he wants to be allowed to purchase this camp.

Jennifer Prokop (93:55)

Right.

Sarah McLean (93:55)

This like, and he has a plan for this summer camp. And so they have to fake it until the decision is made. And then of course, like once the decision is made, these are two people who fucking hate each other at the beginning. Well, he hates her at the beginning of the book.

Jennifer Prokop (94:11)

Right.

Sarah McLean (94:11)

And so that structure really works really well. That's a good example of your point. And again, again, like, what Kate Claiborne can do is not the same as what the rest of us can do. But in that book it is a longer period of time and like they, they end up like it's like over the course of eight weekends or ten. Like there's, you know, so it's a really interesting structure.

Jennifer Prokop (94:39)

The thing I, I, well, about that book, the thing that is amazing to me about that book is like you forget that somebody might figure it out and then when they do, it's like so fucking devastating. Right. Here's what I want to talk about. And I wanted to talk about it with Whiteout, which we started with. But I also think that Kate does this well with the other side of disappearing, which is when you have characters on a ticking clock. Yeah, right. When you have characters on a ticking clock, how do you give them a break? Break. If that's required for, like, story, like, romance reasons, literally. Right.

Sarah McLean (95:16)

And you do. You can't just be going at a 10 the whole time.

Jennifer Prokop (95:20)

Right.

Sarah McLean (95:20)

You have to break book.

Jennifer Prokop (95:22)

And in. In white out. I, like, joked about it as I was reading, and I'm sure every other time I've talked about it, which is, like, when are they gonna bang? Like, Right. Like, when are they gonna bang?

Sarah McLean (95:32)

Right. They're literally dying out here.

Jennifer Prokop (95:34)

Yeah, Right. Like, how is this a romance if there isn't, like, now, not because of sex, but just, like, them falling in love.

Sarah McLean (95:41)

And Adriana Anders knows the job, everybody.

Jennifer Prokop (95:43)

Oh, yeah, right. And so what happens is they've come across essentially. Like, he remembers that there's, like, a, you know, a shack that they can, like, have take a break at. Right. Only in Antarctica. How convenient. But in the other side of disappearing, they. They are on the road, and they are. They go to his family's home in, like, Missouri or something. His. The family's farm, and there they have a couple of nights where they are kind of off of the ticking clock of, like, we're gonna find my mother. We're, like, following these clues. We just need to take this break. And I remember thinking at the time, like, this is really smart because. And I think that's. I think this is, like, my point, or I. I don't know if I actually made it, but I was trying to make earlier, which is the clock needs to be ticking, but you still. The author still has to be in charge of the story. And so there are times that for, like, to show us the development of the relationship of these two people, or more, I guess. Right. Like, if it's a. Right. Like a poly romance, whatever. Right. Like, you have to show these people having an opportunity to really, like, connect with each other outside of whatever it is that is, like, pushing them along. And I think that, like, sometimes it's not. Like, sometimes they're just on the road trip and they can find that time. But, like, in the case of whiteout and the other side of disappearing, it felt like sort of a. Like, a pool opened up and they had to, like, kind of drift off into, like, a. On a lazy river. Right. Like, they're on the river, but, like, they have to, like, get stuck for a while together somewhere.

Sarah McLean (97:26)

Mm.

Jennifer Prokop (97:27)

And I think like, romantic suspense does this really well too. Right. Like, it cannot just you. It can't feel like the case or whatever, that urge to survive is like bigger than the romance, that then it's just a thriller. So if the clock is really ticking, you still have to find ways. If you can't. If they can't connect, then you have to build it in. And I think in both of those books there's sort of a way in which. Which you get them off and with each other and you're like, oh, okay, take a breath. Let them be right before they are back on it. Yeah.

Sarah McLean (98:07)

I mean that's. That is why the road gets washed out in historicals.

Jennifer Prokop (98:11)

Correct?

Sarah McLean (98:12)

Right. Like.

Jennifer Prokop (98:13)

Right.

Sarah McLean (98:13)

There's a.

Jennifer Prokop (98:14)

Yes.

Sarah McLean (98:15)

I mean, you have to, not to put too fine a point on it, everybody, but like, there are moments where you have to give them a break.

Jennifer Prokop (98:23)

Yeah.

Sarah McLean (98:24)

Especially when you're writing an. On an adventure.

Jennifer Prokop (98:29)

Yeah. Right.

Sarah McLean (98:30)

And I mean, Kate, obviously that's for everybody. But yeah, to your point, I'm thinking about my own books and like, often there is a moment where you're like, we have been moving for 10 chapters.

Jennifer Prokop (98:44)

And I think that that is like, to me, one of those things where it's. It's the only way I can think to describe it. And maybe it's not the greatest choice, but like, is like, you know, after seeing, when you're at the theater watching Shakespeare after some goes down, like people are going to come on stage and then make you laugh, right? Like, so the way that like tension stays tense is you like give people a break from it and then you put them right back on.

Sarah McLean (99:10)

Right. It's seen in sequel, Right. Which we've probably talked about, but Dwight Swain, a million trillion years ago in the 60s, wrote a book called Scene and Sequel. And No, I don't know if that's what it's called, but that's the concept that. That is introduced in it. And basically anybody who reads third person, who, who cut their teeth on third person romances, right. Dual POV romances, knows the structure intuitively, which means something happens, Right. An external thing happens and then the inter. Then the scene switches. So that's. That's what he refers to as scene. Right. Active work in the book and then the books, the scene switches to what he refers to as sequel, which is a character then responding to it internally. Right? So in romance we see this all the time because we see like something happen actively to the heroine and then the scene switches and we see the hero or the, you know, secondary. The second protagonist respond mentally to it, and then, you know, the structure then. So that sequel scene, for lack of a sequel, small ass scene, is the beat. It's the place where you take a breath.

Jennifer Prokop (100:28)

I. The last book I thought was thinking about, that I wanted to talk about on my list was Dionysus in Wisconsin, which everybody knows I love, right? And, like, Dionysus is going to come and take over Sam's body and Ulysses has to save him. And that's going to require, like, levels of magic and, you know, all sorts of things happening. And one of the things that I thought was really clever about this book, as I was thinking about it in like again, is one of the ways that Ulysses can, like, read that Dionysus is getting closer is by the way, people respond to Sam, right? So it's like literally a bacchanal, right? Like, he go. They go into a. And Sam goes out on the floor and, like, starts dancing. And then, like, all of a sudden, Ulysses looks out and it's like people, like, streaming around him in a circle, and he's like, what just happened? And it's this sense of like. And Sam not even really knowing or realizing that the way people responding to him is more intense as, like, Dionysus gets closer. I also think, like, thinking back about it a lot, I think it's hilarious. I think one of the things I really loved about this book, I really love that book, is the idea that, like, Dionysus is somebody I have to be scared of, right? Like, it's not Zeus, right, in Wisconsin. And I thought that that is like. The other thing is like, another hallmark, maybe, of a good ticking clock, is that the clock starts ticking and they don't feel the weight of it immediately, right? Or it doesn't seem as scary in some way or as intense, right? And then it's kind of that scrambling, like, oh, shit, we gotta. We gotta take care, right?

Sarah McLean (102:23)

We have plenty of time.

Jennifer Prokop (102:25)

Yes.

Sarah McLean (102:25)

And then suddenly, you don't have plenty of time.

Jennifer Prokop (102:27)

You don't have plenty of time.

Sarah McLean (102:29)

A procrastinator.

Jennifer Prokop (102:30)

There's a real dream for someone like me.

Sarah McLean (102:35)

So, yeah, that's it. Everybody, I think. Wait, did I talk about every book I wanted to talk about?

Jennifer Prokop (102:46)

I talked about every book on my list and more.

Sarah McLean (102:49)

Yeah, me too. I added some in as we were going. This was fun.

Jennifer Prokop (102:55)

I thought. So.

Sarah McLean (102:56)

A gift to those of you who have asked us to talk more about craft. Now, everybody else is like, okay, but can we get back to. Can we? In the immortal words of Hamilton, can we get back to politics?

Jennifer Prokop (103:08)

Nobody wants that. Sarah. I however, am very excited about upcoming episodes we have planned. So don't worry everybody.

Sarah McLean (103:18)

Yeah, we're excited. There are some great upcoming episodes. We also also have a Read along coming. Yes, which is Julianne Long's what I Did For a Duke. You're gonna have a great time. Reading is a banger of a historical I'm Sarah McLean. I'm here with my friend Jen Prokop. We are fated mates. If you really love listening to us talk about romance novels and wish that you had other people to talk about romance novels with, you should join our patreon@faded mates.net patreon when you join it, you get a special episode of Faded Mates every month just dedicated to our Patreon subscribers and you get access to the Faded Mates discord, which is full of romance lovers and other magnificent firebirds like you. If Patreon's not your thing, but you just want to spend some more time with us, you can head over to fadedmates.net and check on Show Notes where there is a full list of every book we spoke about in this episode, as well as links to anything else that we happen to chat about. You can find us also on bluesky, on threads, and on Instagram where you can send us messages and tell us about books that you really love with a ticking clock or other books you really love. Or just say hi and tell us that you're thinking about us. We are here every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts and we'll be here for as long as you'll have us. Take care everyone. Have a great week.