07.45: Reading Down Under: Australian Romance Novelists

Summary

Podcast Summary: Fated Mates - Episode 07.45: Reading Down Under: Australian Romance Novelists

Episode Information

• Title: Fated Mates - Romance Books for Novel People
• Host/Author: Fated Mates (Sarah MacLean & Jen Prokop)
• Episode: 07.45: Reading Down Under: Australian Romance Novelists
• Release Date: July 29, 2025

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Fated Mates, co-hosts Sarah MacLean and Jen Prokop dive into the vibrant world of Australian romance novelists. The hosts balance light-hearted banter with in-depth discussions about the unique contributions of Australian authors to the romance genre.

Opening Banter and Setting the Stage

The episode begins with Sarah expressing her frustration over the unavailability of the beloved movie French Kiss on streaming platforms. This anecdote serves as a relatable entry point, illustrating their shared love for romance classics and the challenges of accessing them in the digital age.

Notable Quote:

• Sarah MacLean [00:17]: "The world is terrible to women."

Transition to Australian Romance Authors

The conversation smoothly transitions to the main topic: Australian romance novelists. Sarah reveals her excitement about traveling to Australia and New Zealand in August to speak at the Romance Writers of Australia conference in Tasmania and the New Zealand Romance Writers Conference in Auckland.

Notable Quote:

• Sarah MacLean [12:46]: "Australia holds a very particular space in romance. Historical romance specifically."

Spotlight on Australian Authors

Sarah and Jen highlight several prominent Australian romance authors, discussing their contributions and the distinctive flavors they bring to the genre.

1. Kylie Scott

   • Sarah MacLean [21:32]: "Kylie Scott is a really good example of how Australian authors seem to be able to ride the line of making a book feel like it's set sort of everywhere and nowhere all at once."

2. Amy Andrews

   • Jen Prokop [24:26]: "Amy Andrews wrote the Sydney Smoke series, which features a terrific curvy heroine and engaging storylines centered around a rugby team."

3. Sally Thorne

   • The hosts discuss The Hating Game by Sally Thorne, noting its global appeal and how it transcends specific settings, yet subtly reflects Australian sensibilities.

4. Anna Campbell

   • Sarah MacLean [25:16]: "Anna Campbell is famous for intense 'two people in a phone book' romances set in Regency and Victorian England, offering richly emotional and atmospheric narratives."

5. Eve Dangerfield

   • Jen Prokop [29:09]: "Eve Dangerfield writes some of the most erotic and nuanced romances, especially her 'Playing for Love' series, which blends sports with passionate romance."

6. Nicola Davidson

   • Sarah MacLean [70:07]: "Nicola Davidson writes very sexy erotic historicals, including novellas like Slave to Sensation and The Devil's Submission, which explore complex power dynamics."

Conference Experiences and Author Interactions

Jen recounts her experience attending a Chicago event where she introduced colleagues to the world of romance novels. She shares heartwarming stories of new readers discovering their passion for the genre, emphasizing the inclusive and community-driven nature of romance literature.

Notable Quote:

• Jen Prokop [04:40]: "It's totally fine to just sit around and read before staying. You don't have to talk to anybody."

Recommendations and Deep Dives

The hosts provide recommendations for both new and seasoned readers, encouraging them to explore various subgenres within Australian romance. They mention specific series and stand-alone novels that exemplify the diversity and depth of Australian authors.

Notable Recommendations:

• Freya Marska's "The Last Binding" Series: A historical fantasy romance set in Edwardian England, blending magic with intricate relationships.
• Louisa Darling's "Dukes in Disguise" Series: Featuring Lady Lucy Lively and the mysterious Duke of Thorncliff, showcasing witty banter and romantic twists.
• Miranda Lee's "Fugitive Bride" by Miranda Lee: A tale of mistaken identity and twin brothers, illustrating classic romance tropes with a modern twist.

Engagement with the Fated Mates Community

Sarah and Jen encourage listeners to engage with their community through Discord and Patreon, where fans can suggest new episode ideas and participate in lively discussions. They highlight the interactive nature of their podcast, fostering a sense of belonging among romance enthusiasts.

Sponsor Highlights and Book Promotions

Throughout the episode, the hosts seamlessly integrate discussions about sponsor books, providing summaries and personal endorsements.

1. Sophie H. Morgan's Season of the Witch

   • Sarah MacLean [15:32]: "Tia Hightower must navigate a business merger while dealing with forgotten memories and past curses. It's a blend of Christmas magic and romantic tension."

2. Jess Die's Home

   • Jen Prokop [84:15]: "Evelyn Watson, a trauma nurse, grapples with grief and unexpected love with Jamie Turner, a special forces guy. It's a profoundly emotional and angsty romance."

Conclusion and Upcoming Reads

As the episode wraps up, Sarah and Jen tease their next read-along, Susan Elizabeth Phillips's Natural Born Charmer, promising more delightful discussions. They also touch upon their political activism, encouraging listeners to support their efforts in local elections.

Notable Quote:

• Sarah MacLean [72:00]: "We're going to talk a little bit more about that as we get closer to the election day in November. But we want you to know that that's what we're doing."

Final Thoughts

This episode of Fated Mates serves as a comprehensive guide to Australian romance novelists, blending expert insights with personal anecdotes. Sarah MacLean and Jen Prokop successfully highlight the richness of Australian contributions to the romance genre, making it an invaluable resource for both new and longtime fans.

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Listen to the Episode: For those interested in exploring the vibrant landscape of Australian romance novels, tune into Episode 07.45 of Fated Mates available on all major podcast platforms.

Transcript

[Sarah McLean]

Jen, I have a bone to pick with the universe.

[Jennifer Prokop]

That's not what you say with me. And I was like, usually you text me and say, jennifer, I don't.

[Sarah McLean]

I do sometimes text you with all caps, Jennifer. And you always reply, what did I do?

[Jennifer Prokop]

What I do. And often it's nothing about me.

[Sarah McLean]

No, sometimes it's just like, holy, I gotta, I gotta tell Jen. No, this is like a really general sort of like a thing that's bothering me about the world right now. Might be better to list the things that are not bothering me about the world. But here we are and this is everybody. Don't worry about it. You don't have to forward if you're like, hate it when we're big mad. I'm very upset though that you can't find the movie French Kiss in streaming.

[Jennifer Prokop]

That's been the case for a long time.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah, I know.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, but you're. I'm really mad about it.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah, I mean, like I'm mad about it again. How about that? There you go. Because there are some great moments in that movie. For those of you who don't know, French Kiss is a movie where Kevin Klein and Meg Ryan fall in love.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah McLean]

And it's a frickin delight.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I wonder why. I wonder if it was like a weird production company or, you know, people in Hollywood.

[Sarah McLean]

Would you please find out?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sure.

[Sarah McLean]

Why this is not. Listen, I don't want it remade. Don't like put that in the universe, everybody. I just want, you know, for there are just many quotes that I quote from that movie and fewer and fewer people understand the reference. So I sound crazier and crazier is what I'm saying.

[Jennifer Prokop]

You're like, everybody needs to see this movie so you can catch up with my references.

[Sarah McLean]

Because it's delightful.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I remember really loving Kevin Klein is delightful. I haven't seen it in however long.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah, it's Meg Ryan before she got weird and like it's great. Meg Ryan, I love you. I love you. The world is terrible to women.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sure.

[Sarah McLean]

And I love you.

[Jennifer Prokop]

There you go.

[Sarah McLean]

And I wish that it was on streaming, but actually now I'm sort of like, as I'm thinking about this, I'm like, maybe I can just get it on Blu Ray. We could dust off the old.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Now it's the time for physical. Physical media, everybody. Exactly.

[Sarah McLean]

So here's the thing. I have a PlayStation because I think we've talked about this on the podcast before, but I am a secret video game player.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah McLean]

And so I have one video. I have Multiple video game Systems, but the PlayStation is actually plugged in and you can watch videos, watch Blu Ray.

[Jennifer Prokop]

The reason I know this is because I think at one point Mr. E's romance told me to watch a Blu Ray. And I was like, how?

[Sarah McLean]

You were like, what do I do? I can't. You can't put it into your laptop anymore.

[Jennifer Prokop]

How am I supposed to do that? And he was like, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, God.

[Sarah McLean]

I'm not put. I'm not using a video game controller to watch a movie. What are you.

[Jennifer Prokop]

What? I.

[Sarah McLean]

Is that what you said?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Pretty much. I was like, what? That sounds crazy.

[Sarah McLean]

I mean, it really. Listen, this is not us being old. This is just. There is no young person in the world who's like, yeah, I'm gonna watch that on Blu Ray. Blu Ray. So in this we are with the youths.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. I mean, I don't even know if these things are hooked up to this television. Right. Like, how would I get there?

[Sarah McLean]

Oh, no, this is my thing now. Now we're down a rabbit hole of, like, husbands who hook shit up in your house. I don't know how to change from we Apple TV exclusively. Because I'm like, I don't.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I don't know how to change it. Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

I don't know how to look at anything else that's plugged into this computer or this television.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I mean.

[Sarah McLean]

Anyway, so there we are. And that's just that. I'm sure Eric has taken some of that out. Welcome, everyone, to Faded mates. I'm Sarah McLean. I read romance novels and I write them.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And I'm Jennifer Pokop, a romance reader and editor. And Sarah, you have something exciting about to happen to you.

[Sarah McLean]

Well, yes, but I'm going to say that this actually is not because of that. We're not doing this because of that. We're doing this because somebody asked for it on the Discord, maybe.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, yeah, I think somebody did. Well, it seemed more like we're not doing it because of that, but because of that we are doing it. Like, it felt more like going down under. Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

And that. Listen, we're going down under. And also these characters are all going down for sure. Because we're gonna recommend them.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Romance writers in Australia right now are like, uh huh, uh huh. Down under. Good one, Sara.

[Sarah McLean]

This is my problem with a lot of books these days. No one's going down. That's a separate episode. It's a separate episode, but it is a thing that I bitch at Jen.

[Jennifer Prokop]

About at the Chicago event. Have we talked about this at the Chicago event. I went ahead and invited some of my co workers. I was like, okay, fine, listen.

[Sarah McLean]

You knew what who I was when you invited those people.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I did. I did. Well, and I knew who this guy was. So anyway, it was actually really cool because some of my colleagues came and one woman had. Is a huge reader and she's never been to a book event before.

[Sarah McLean]

What a great time.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And I saw her. Oh my God, I saw her last week. We went out to dinner with some other work friends and then we went out to see challengers, which I'd never seen before. And this is like the dance teacher. She's amazing. She tap dances and teaches the kids to tap and it's fucking awesome. But anyway, she was like, I've never been to a book before event before. And she's like. And I just was like, why have I never done this? These are my people. It's totally fine to like just sit around and read before starts. And you don't have to talk to anybody.

[Sarah McLean]

That's amazing, right? That is a thing that people don't realize about, like you. It's just a bunch of readers who like came with a book so you could talk or not talk.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It was awesome. And then. But then I invited my colleague Tom, who is a. Who reads a lot of romance, just reads a lot of everything. He's retired now and he has this really big booming voice. And he sat down next to the dance teacher and her name is more distinctive, so I'm not going to say it. Anyway, so Tom sits down next to her and. Because, you know, they know each other. And then they're right behind me because I'm next to Sun Hee and there.

[Sarah McLean]

Were like a hundred and some odd people there.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, yeah, yeah, there were like 150 people there. And up on stage, Sarah says about Jack Dean. Well, I mean, of course, he's a McClan hero. So he eats and I hear behind me, tom, go like a jump scare. But it was like a laugh.

[Sarah McLean]

I mean, the audience laughed, but it was. I mean, like, it is sort of. I. Afterward, I did text Jen and I said, oh my God, you were with your colleagues. And I talked about how my heroes always eat, but they do. And that is because we deserve nice things. And also, there is a rule in romance, everybody. And I am concerned about how many people seem to think it is just fine to break it these days. And that is that she comes twice for every time he comes insist romance. And I don't like it that a lot of the times. Now, these men are not going down.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. And so listen, I just think.

[Sarah McLean]

Not McLean approved.

[Jennifer Prokop]

You know what? Maybe we should make a. Maybe we should make it. There you go.

[Sarah McLean]

A sticker. That's what the faded mate sticker should be.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Faded. Approved.

[Sarah McLean]

With a little down arrow, everyone will be like, I don't know. What does this mean? It says, is it a negative review? No, it's a. It's a very positive review.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Anyway, this reminds me of something very funny happening in our discord, which I'm talking about. And then we're talking about collections.

[Sarah McLean]

Well, then we're gonna have to explain what we're doing, because we still haven't said what we're doing.

[Jennifer Prokop]

But we'll get there. It's fine. These people are used to us.

[Sarah McLean]

They figured it out.

[Jennifer Prokop]

They're like, down under. I wonder what it could be.

[Sarah McLean]

It's a deep dive of Crocodile Dundee.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So our discord is huge and massive and, like, moves at the speed of light. And I made this. Like, sometimes people say really funny things and someone will. And so I made this thing where I said this thing where I was like, you know what? From now on, anytime someone says something really funny, I'm gonna reply to it and say, tote bag. Because that way if I. Because you kind of can't remember exactly what someone said, you're searching for it. But now if you can search tote bag, you'll just find all the funny things people say.

[Sarah McLean]

Right, Perfect. And someday we'll get our ass act.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Together and we'll make a bunch of tote bags. But the one that was the. The joke was like, the one you said, I think on a recent episode or banter. It was like amnesia or whatever.

[Sarah McLean]

Somebody made a shirt and sent it to us on Instagram. Thank you very much, person. Hang on. Oh, actually, that person did not have a name. It was like the name of a business. So. But it was great. And we'll get maybe permission to drop that as the image for banter. But, yes, it says, boom, boom. Amnesia, Romance, science. And I did show that to Louisa and she thought it was amazing because that was because of an Louisa Darling.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes, I did have a new. I had. I had, like, an idea maybe for a new, like, romance. Whatever, right? Romance science. Romance law.

[Sarah McLean]

I thought you were going to say con, and I was going to be like, jen, get the fuck out of here. We're divorcing.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Romance logic.

[Sarah McLean]

No, you. That was. That's every episode.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, I mean, I guess it's like romance.

[Sarah McLean]

That's Romance reasons.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, yeah. But, like, I was definitely. I was, like, reading this book today for this episode, and, like, there was definitely, like, a thing where I was like, well, that's just romance logic. You know what I mean?

[Sarah McLean]

Exactly.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Which is like an offshoot, I guess, of romance reasons. But I was like, oh, maybe it's the same. But it really made me laugh to think about it. Okay, so can we just talk really quick also about collections? Because Eric has been putting up a few new ones. And in case you have not checked it out now, that is, like, a really fun page with, I don't know, almost like, probably at least 20 different collections. And they are made for us by readers, people who listen to the podcast. It's just, like, essentially so hard now, right, with all the slop on the Internet, with the way that, like, Google search basically doesn't work anymore to find sometimes, like, a book that you might be looking for, especially if it's got, like, a micro trope or something really specific. And so there are some really fun new collections up there. A Happy Ending, Question Mark, Historical Edition, Hot Priest, for all of you people out there who like that Queer as in F Me, which I think was made for us by the wonderful people at Pocketbooks. At Pocketbooks. So it's just a really. And I think the thing that's fun is some of them are kind of straight down the middle, like, it's just a microtrope. And then some of them are, you know, just gathering, like, great books that have something in common that you might not have ever thought to put together. So it's a really, really fun page. And if you're just like, discoverability is always an issue. This might be a fun new way to discover some books that you want to read.

[Sarah McLean]

Thanks to everybody who's submitting them. And there's, like, a backlog. Apparently, Eric's putting like, one or two a week, so keep checking back because they're fun. All right, so let's talk about Australia, because when. So we have on the pot, everybody. A lot of, you know, we have a Patreon and the. If you join the Patreon, which is fadedmates.net Patreon, you get access to a reader discord where there are many, many, many Fademates listeners who hang out and talk about romance all the time, which is great, and we love it there. And there is a thread on the Discord or a place on the reader Discord where you can drop kind of ideas for new episodes. And one of the things that was dropped in I don't know, a while back. Because it's been on our list for a while is what about books by Australian authors? Like, what about Australian romance? Romance novelists. Australian romance novels. And I think that's a really interesting. It's interesting. It's always been interesting to us, I think, because Australia's one of those places, like, when there's an English romance novelist, you sort of know that they're English. Like, it sort of comes out like, oh, they're from. They're English. But when they're Australian, often, like, people don't recognize, don't, like, sort of acknowledge that they're Australian. And so I think that's really interesting. And I think the books themselves, when you start thinking of them as like a product of Australia, are really interesting. And then also the other thing that I think is interesting about it is we have talked about a lot of these. Like, I think percentage wise, are we. There are certainly more deep dives from Australian authors than there are from anybody anywhere besides the United States, maybe.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Interesting. Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

I think there are these, like, sort of interesting things about what's going on in Australia. And also we decided to do it this. This summer because I am headed to Australia and New Zealand in August.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So fun.

[Sarah McLean]

I will be speaking at the Romance Writers of Australia conference in Tasmania. So how exciting. And I will be speaking at the New Zealand Romance Writers Conference in Auckland in August as well. So I'm traveling around. I'm going to be in Sydney. I might be signing some books. There might be some meetups. We'll put things in show notes. We'll put things on the Instagram account, too, if. And all the other social media places. But if we can find a time for us all to hang out, that would be really fun.

[Jennifer Prokop]

These books, what I ended up doing. And I don't know if you kind of ran into this, too. I really was prioritizing authors, not setting same. Okay.

[Sarah McLean]

But I do have one that I want to talk about. Maybe we should begin here.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Okay.

[Sarah McLean]

Because I think Australia holds a very particular space in romance. Historical romance specifically, I'm sure, as I'm sorry to say everyone, a nation of criminals. And the reason why we feel this way is because in historical romance, every baddie gets put on a boat and shipped to Australia. So I'm very sorry about that because I feel like I've maybe done that once or twice, too. Just like, what do I do with this baddie? Slow boat to Hobart in Tasmania, which is actually. Now I'm discovering, you guys. I'm so excited. One of the largest, like, penitentiaries for, like, set up during this time when, like, if you survived the global shipment of criminals to Australia, you ended up in this, like, particular location in Hobart, if you were a really sort of a significant offender. And so, but now it's, now it's a museum, so I'm looking forward to going there.

[Jennifer Prokop]

That's really cool.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah, I'm into it. So anyway, anyway, so all I'm saying is that it. What doesn't make sense is that when you meet actual Australians, you don't get the vibe of a whole nation of criminals.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So I think that's a couple generations, I guess.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah, I think, I think historical romance has done you a little dirty. Australia.

[Jennifer Prokop]

This week's episode of Fated Mates is brought to you by Sophie H. Morgan, author of Season of the Witch.

[Sarah McLean]

So Tia Hightower has a problem. For eight years, she has refused to speak Henry Perlmutter's name unless it has been to curse it. And Tia is a very powerful witch. So when I say curse it, I mean actually curse it. Now, the problem is that their family businesses are merged and they need a wealthy warlock to commit to investing in this newly formed business. So what else is is there to do but to pretend that they are together, share a room and a bed in order to secure this investment? Unfortunately, there is a larger issue, which is Tia can't stand Henry and their past is definitely very present in her mind. It is not the case for Henry though, because during one of those cursings, she had a small potion mishap and accidentally erased all of his memories of her. So he has no idea who she is or why she's so weird about him. But it's definitely clear that something's happened. And whatever went wrong in the past, Henry intends to figure it out. He is not having any trouble with faking feelings for her because she's pretty hot and he's pretty into her, but he definitely knows, like, something is holding her back. So with the threat of Henry's memories hovering over all their stolen moments, their time together is running out. But Tia just might be warmed by a little bit of Christmas magic and some snow melting heat between them. And maybe she's willing to give the whole thing a second chance.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So if you are interested in Season of the Witch, it is going to be available in print, ebook or audio on September 2nd. And if you pre order now through Bookish Signs, which is ookishsigns on Instagram, you'll get an exclusive sprayed edges edition. So click on the chapter title right now, if your podcast app supports it, and you'll be taken to pre order the book. Thanks to Sophie H. Morgan for sponsoring this week's episode.

[Sarah McLean]

So, a while back, the. The romance novel artist. Or, I mean, this is one of the kings of the Step back.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah McLean]

Victor Gadino posted online that he had been going through all of his stuff and he'd come up with a bunch of what we refer to as cover flats. So I'll put this. I'll take a picture of this and maybe it'll pop up. It'll be on your thing. If not, we'll. We'll drop it in show notes, too, but. And he posted onto his Instagram page, which I follow. Hey, I found all of these cover flats. I'm selling them for, like, I don't know, $15, $20 each. And so I. He posted a bunch of them, and I sent him a message, a dm, and I was like, I want that Dream Fever cover. Because I remember having that book. Do I remember anything about Dream Fever? I do not. But here is the Step back.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, look at that. Sure.

[Sarah McLean]

A real classic. Gravity defying hair. She's, like, doing the splits. His shirt is falling off. It's exactly what you want it to be anyway. And then I got it, and then it sat on my desk, and I've been sort of using it as a fan in the summer, but earlier this week, I was using it as a fan, and I read the back cover, and I was like, oh, my God, it's perfect for this week. Jen, settle in. Ready?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, boy. Probably not.

[Sarah McLean]

This is the back cover of Dream Fever by Katherine Sutcliffe, which I have already ordered a copy of so that I can read it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

The COVID alone is not enough.

[Sarah McLean]

Dig in. Okay. Nicholas. A proud and gallant aristocrat, he was exiled to New Zealand. Now, I know we're talking about Australia, but New Zealand is adjacent to New Zealand for a crime committed in defense of a woman's honor. See you.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Probably just like Chris Hemsworth were shipped there.

[Sarah McLean]

He does for sure. All the people who were shipped there were criminals. In defense of women's honor is what I'm learning now. Disgraced and disowned, he lives as a simple sheep farmer, nursing his bitterness in silence and solitude. Summer. The lovely and spirited daughter of an English courtesan. She flees the dire consequences of a tragic, impetuous act, only to seek sanctuary in Nicholas's lonely world, only to be surprised by the handsome, secretive stranger who spurns the healing powers of her Giving heart. She's gonna. She. He's broken. She wants to fix him. He won't have it. Dream Fever. A ruined nobleman and a beautiful child of the streets. Their dreams would unite them in an untamed paradise, inflaming their souls with passion's fire, awakening within them both a raging fever of sensuous desire and rapturous love.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Man, they used to write the hell out of those.

[Sarah McLean]

They sure did. There were people whose job it was to write about this. They don't do that anymore. They make us do it ourselves now. It's a bummer. So that is Katherine Sutcliffe's Dream Fever, which is set in New Zealand. And I know we're talking about Australia, but we're probably going to talk about Nalini Singh. So settle in, everyone. Nicholas and Summer.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I mean, he's just a sheep farmer, Sarah.

[Sarah McLean]

He is. He was just trying to protect women, and now he's got sheep to worry about.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Some of our favorite authors are from Australia.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah. Should we just, like, start there?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, maybe Kylie. Some of.

[Sarah McLean]

For the record, some of romance's favorite authors.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, right.

[Sarah McLean]

Kylie Scott.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sarah Mayberry, Eve Dangerfield.

[Sarah McLean]

Hang on. I'm having. I'm having, like, a mental break. Stephanie Lawrence.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, I don't think I knew that. Okay.

[Sarah McLean]

Sally Thorne.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sally Thorne was a big one. Yeah. I actually read a lot of categories for this episode because they're a lot. A lot of like. Like, kind of people. I was like, oh, like Valerie Parve and Emma Darcy.

[Sarah McLean]

Emma Darcy.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And, like, Right. Like, these are names I've seen on catego stories for a thousand years. Right. So.

[Sarah McLean]

Well, and it feels like the. This is somehow connected through Mills and Boon.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes, I'm sure.

[Sarah McLean]

I'm sure the colonizing of the world brought many things, including Australian writers for Mills and Boone.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Oh, I mean, absolutely. Absolutely. So that, I think, was really interesting. And I ended up actually reading a lot of categories because I was like, these are fun.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think also there's. So there was. I think this is an important piece. Back in the day, there were whole. Whole harlequin lines that were set. That were written for Australian readers. So. So this began. So what I learned about this was that there is. There were 15 initial. No, 12. I'm sorry, 12 initial books in a series called the Australians.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Okay.

[Sarah McLean]

Which were specifically designed, like, they were set in either, like, urban Sydney or the Australian Outback. And they, like, they had these, like, kind of Wild Westy feelings. And then there were.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And they were contemporary, so.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah. But When I say this was like Mills and Boone. So it was like the 60s. And then that led to the Australians, which is a subcategory of Harlequin Presents. But then. So now Harlequin Presents had a series in, like, 2010, 2011, where they essentially resurrected the Australians. And then they had people like Emma Darcy and Miranda Lee write Australian set romances for, I think, the Australian market. I'm sure they were available here, but it's like presents, comma, presents, colon. The Australians.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah McLean]

Which makes sense because that's a lot of. It's a huge landmass with a lot of people on it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So along with Kylie Scott, I would say Amy Andrews is probably one of my other, like, another Australian author I like quite a. Quite a bit. She wrote in particular a series that maybe we've talked about one at least one of before. The Sydney Smoke series.

[Sarah McLean]

That's the. I mean, the rugby series about the rugby team.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah McLean]

That book has a terrific curvy heroine playing it cool.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I like the whole series. The Sydney Smoke series. There's a lot of. Sarah mentioned a terrific curvy heroine and playing it cool. But it goes through, like, sort of all the different ones. But the one I sort of. I mean, it's probably been 10 years. Amy, if you're listening, what about that coach? Like, there was a good coach and I always felt like it was teeing up, that the coach was going to be one of the. One of them. And I don't think it ever happened. And in fact, I think, like, at some point these would have been, God, they were like, category, but maybe entangled potentially.

[Sarah McLean]

Yes, that sounds right. Yes, for sure. Because the rugby books were entangled.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Right. And so I think potentially she has her. Maybe got the rights back or they got rejacketed. I'm not really sure. But either way, listen, I'm a fan of this whole series. There's now eight of them. The last one came out in 2022 and I just think, don't forget about the coach. Anyway, so, yeah, those were really, really fun. I love them. And Sydney, like, so Sydney Smoke, the series. The Smoke is the name of, like, the rugby team she invented.

[Sarah McLean]

And we've talked about those on sports romance. We've talked about it on curvy romance. We have loved her for a long time. I really feel like we should talk. I've talked a little bit about Anna Campbell because I often bring up Anna Campbell when we talk about dark romance, because I feel like if you are a dark romance person claiming the Courtesan, which, like, the COVID of this book shows you how dark it's gonna be, is I think, like, like primordial dark romance. Like if you love dark and you want to try historical, this is the book to try. And I've talked about it in the past, but basically it's about like Courtesan who has, has had this, this partner, this relationship, this business partnership with a duke, or he's a titled guy. And like we join the book at the moment where she's like, I have enough money to get the fuck out of, like, I don't want this relationship anymore. And she, or it's not a relationship, right? It's a business deal. And she's like, finally, finally I can like grab my brother and get the hell out of London and like go live a life somewhere else. And the moment she takes off, he, the, the duke here realizes that like she's left him and he goes fully like feral and chases her down and kidnaps her and like, basically forces her to fall in love with him. And like, it caused a big kerfuffle back in the day.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Back in the day, yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

But I mean, like now it's, it remains a just banger of a book. It's so good. But you know, Anna's sort of very famous for these really, really like intense, like two people in a phone book romances, historicals, where like a. She loves a sort of gruff, stern rake and a heroine who just won't be pushed over, like, who really does. And these are not, these heroines are not like bright, sunshiny heroines. These are heroines who have like, who understand the score. And there's something really richly emotional and atmospheric about her books. And they're all set obviously in Regency England or in Victorian England, but there are terrific. So if you have, if you are a historical reader just looking for somebody who's doing something kind of different than what everybody else is doing, really living in her own space. In historicals, Anna Campbell is. Is it? And she's terrific. If you are looking for a recommendation, My Reckless Surrender or Midnight's Wild Passion are both terrific.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Stephanie Lawrence, we mentioned, you mentioned. I didn't realize she was Australian. But like we talked about Devil's Bride in season two because that's like one of my all time faves.

[Sarah McLean]

The entire sinster family. Just read them one after another after another. Start with those early ones though. Like really, really dig in and enjoy those early books.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Okay. Should we talk about Kylie Scott?

[Sarah McLean]

Should we. You know what we'll do Also everybody is check show notes after this episode because we have done deep div on a number of the books that we'll probably talk about today. So we'll link to all of those deep dives so that you can read them and then come back and listen to more.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I. I just love Kylie. I think she's probably one of my all time favorite. Like a really like when she hits, she hits kind of romance author for me.

[Sarah McLean]

Right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

She's really good, she knows the job. And I think, you know, she sort of at this point probably has a pretty big backlist. You know, it's not like she's prolific in the way that she's coming out with a new book every month. But what I think that what I like about what it means is I think she is really wants to like kind of tell a good story and I think she also does a lot of different types of books. Right. So I mean I obviously my favorite is the Stage Dive series, which is her series. That's one we did some deep dives on of about a band actually in the States. And the first one starts with like a drunk wedding in Vegas. Those are terrific. But like her most recent book is about like a post apocalyptic book. You know, she's written a about like spies in that book, Lies. She's done, you know, kind of more like celebrity normie. She does small town, she does big cities. So, you know, the thing about Kylie is anything goes. Like you'll find something in her backlist that you might be interested in.

[Sarah McLean]

Yep. And she is a really good example of how Australian authors seem to be able to ride the line of making a book feel like it's set sort of everywhere and nowhere all at once. Like I remember reading, you know, obviously we talked a little bit about Sally Thorne and so I'll get to Sally.

[Jennifer Prokop]

In a little bit.

[Sarah McLean]

But the Hating Game has this really interesting feel to it, which is like halfway through you sort of think to yourself, like, what city is this setting set in? Like it just feels like where are we in the world? Because, you know, Sally is Australian and writing from a kind of. There is a real sense of like this city is just like a global city and this story could happen anytime, anywhere. And I think Kylie does a similar thing where you're not ever really. They're very rarely. She rarely writes a book where it's like overtly set in Australia. Like, but it seemed like a good idea at the time, which is age gap and you know, a kind of second chance, unrequited love. Story. I actually recently talked about this book on the podcast. I can't remember for what episode, but this age, this. That book is overtly set in Australia. And it's the first time I read a book by her that really was. And I had a great time reading it because I think, like, she was finally able to, like, she was kind of willing to say, like, this book is set here in this place. And I think that that's interesting. And I think this must be a real, like, needle that has to be thread threaded. For a lot of Australian authors, especially, you know, those of them who are writing category, do you pick a city and go, or do you just sort of write, like, any city, Earth. But the other book, another book that sort of felt that way to me or feels that way to me is Eve Danger Feels Captivated, which is the one that she wrote with Tessa Bailey, which is, again, very sexy. Like, it's sort of a fantasy that the heroine draws comics featuring her, like, Gruff Landlord. And then he, like, comes to fix the scene, discovers that, like, she's been writing these. Like, she's been like, doing these, like, fantasy comics.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

And. And they're in the comics. She's. He's, like, tying her up. He's, like, doing bondage to her. And. And then he's like, well, would you like me to do this? And she's like, yes, please. And then the two of them sort of, like, are very sexy together. And that book feels like any city globe. But then Eve's other books, like the one with the himbo, the one, like, then those feel, like, very atmospherically Australian.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, well, and I think, like, if. So Eve kind of, for me, like, really, it's like one of those things where, like. Okay, so there's one of her. Her kind of first book that I became aware of was called act yout Age. This was back in 2021. It felt like everybody was kind of reading it at the same time because it was a really, like, kind of. The first book I read that took sort of like, that really featured, like, Daddy, but, like, not in, like, the way, like, kind of you get.

[Sarah McLean]

I know what you're talking about. Where he's her boss.

[Jennifer Prokop]

He's her boss. They work together.

[Sarah McLean]

That's so good.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It's really good because basically these two people, like, figure out together that they have, like, a common interest in, like, a very specific, like, kind of kink in the bedroom. And both of them have felt a little like, I shouldn't want what I want. It takes it very seriously. And so it was really interesting because. So, you know, for me, that book, like, it was kind of like one of those books that everybody was reading. Right. Kind of at the same time. But Eve is really prolific and she writes a really, really sexy book. And I think, you know, it's. I. I think she has changed some cover. So, like, some of the books, I'm like, wait, where's the one that was blah, blah, blah? And I can't find it right now. But if you're looking for someone who really writes, like, what I would really, truly consider, like, erotic romance in all kinds of different ways are not all like, daddy. Right? Like, you know what I mean? You should really check out Eve's backlist. She has. She's pretty prolific, I think maybe the series that potentially I liked was called Playing for Love maybe, which has some, I think, like, kind of sports angles or, you know, there's one that was like, kind of a. Like a second chance. And these were great. So Eve Dangerfield, I'm like, you know, she's one of those people who, for me, if I'm like, I just wanna read something really sexy, she always delivers. And so. And she's a great writer. And so I would really think about it if you're interested in that, like, sort of just a really high heat kind of erotic romance. Check out. Check out Eve. Yes.

[Sarah McLean]

We talked about open hearts on the Himbo episode, and that's a great. And I also think what Eve does that's really interesting and how she. How she really nails it. Is she. I mean, listen, if there. If you're writing Himbo and you can win me over, you have clearly have a skill that many people do not. Because I want nothing to do with himbos, but this book is really great because he does have, like. She's really good at, like, taking an archetype of a romance hero and really adding powerful nuance to it. Like, her daddies are not daddies. They are daddies. Like, who they are men who figure out that they have a sort of.

[Jennifer Prokop]

That they have a kink.

[Sarah McLean]

Her himbos are not himbos. They're like himbos with. With like, some kind of sort of depth that you often don't see when the book itself is like, sexy kink. This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Audacious Machine Jean Creative, the producers of the World Gone Wrong podcast, a fictional chat show about friendship at the end of the world.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So I just love stories in all their forms, and having a really fun fictional podcast is a great Way to get just more stories in your ear holes. In this one we have Malik and Jamie. So they're the characters in our story. They were roommates when the world ended and now they are separated by half the country. Literal acid rain, werewolves, aliens and more. And so they do what anybody would do when separated by a friend by half a continent, Sarah. Which is they start a podcast to talk to each other. Exactly. And instead of talking about romance novels though, what? These two are talking about their new apocalyptic reality. So each week on the show, our characters Malik and Jamie tackle topics like should I change my office hours to accommodate vampire students? What if the body snatcher that took.

[Sarah McLean]

Over my ex is nice?

[Jennifer Prokop]

When did the kudzu start humming like that? So no matter how weird, Malik and Jamie are going to try and help. This is a great podcast about friendship, queer best friends, and living when the world is on fire all the time.

[Sarah McLean]

Well, if you are looking for a new podcast to add to your collection and this one sounds good, you can find World Gone Wrong wherever you listen to your podcasts, including the app that you are listening to us right now on, we are very excited to share this with you. And you can also listen to an entire app episode of the World Gone Wrong podcast after this week's episode. If your podcasting app supports it. You can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to Audacious Machine creative.com to learn more about the team behind World Gone Wrong. Thanks so much to Audacious Machine Creative and World Gone Wrong for sponsoring this week's episode. While we're in the erotic sphere, I want to talk briefly about Jess Die who wrote a book, Remember that name, huh?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Gosh. Whoa. Yeah, Those are hot. They really are.

[Sarah McLean]

She loved a threesome. She loved a threesome.

[Jennifer Prokop]

This is probably ten years ago, everybody.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah, Gosh.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I read Office Affair was the one.

[Sarah McLean]

I really liked time ago. And she wrote also entangled books. Like when they were all like there was that very particular kind of entangled book with like the sepia toned cover, you know what I'm talking about, where the everything was. Everything looked a very particular way on the COVID Anyway, she wrote this book. This is not, I don't think an entangled book called Raising the Stakes. And this is like a full on one handed threesome reading, but really truly like has a little bit of unrequited love. Like the heroine is really into one of like a guy and they've been friends forever and he is just like not showing up as a potential mate. And so she Ends up dating his. A guy who like his friend. And the moment he starts dating, she starts dating the friend. The original guy gets like super duper jealous. This is, Listen, this just pushes a lot, lot of like ingrained jealousy buttons. If that's. If those are buttons that you have in terms of kink. And then he's basically like, wait, I don't want her to be with him. Like, I want her for myself. But she's like, well, wait a second because the sex with him is pretty great. So what if you also joined us? Anyway, so this is justy the book. Like she wrote a bunch of threesome books. But then she also wrote, wrote. I mean, listen, these book. The judge these books by their covers, everyone and headphones in.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

So enjoy yourselves. You're welcome. You remember Jess Dusty deep cut from Sarah's Kindle there and sure was.

[Jennifer Prokop]

My goodness.

[Sarah McLean]

Enjoy yourselves, my friends. But they. I don't know if Jess is writing something else now, but. Or under a different name. But she hasn't written in a long time.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, well, I mean, that's the thing. Sometimes that happens and then you like kind of recover them out of your Kindle and you think, oh, man, I.

[Sarah McLean]

Know, what a bummer.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I would like to also recommend if you love an MM romance, NR Walker, I think her real name's Nicole. Based on like kind of some investigation. So N.R. walker writes, has written a ton of. Of queer romance and the ones I remember really liking, and it's almost like a duology, was a series called. The first one's called the Kite. Oh, the Milvus Files. Because in this. And then there's a third book which I think features like different characters that are kind of related. It's two men who are both assassins who have to essentially go on the run together, you know, so it's Harry and Asher. And it's got like a bit of an enemies to lovers vibe because they like, you know, they were like on opposite sides or they hated each other or whatever. You know, kind of one of those things where it started and then what happens is they essentially have to like go on the run because, you know, you know, like then they are being targeted by like the same bad guys or whatever. So. So it's really. So, you know, like, it's funny because Harry is essentially like, so he's a contract killer and he's the one who's like, you know, because you have two men who have the same job, right? Harry's kind of the like, you know, I'm so serious. I'M you know, I'm serious assassin. And Asher, right, is the one grown man with a job. Yes. My job is to kill people. And Asher is the one who is, you know, just like, more chill and, you know, kind of warm, whereas, you know, Harry is kind of more, you know, kind of cold and, you know, kind of stiff upper lip. And so basically they end up, of course, like, kind of while they're on the run, there's, you know, trail of dead bodies and all that stuff. But they fall in love. And then in the second book of the series, they are, like, living together in a small town. And then, like, you know, people infiltrate the town down or, you know, and so the second. So the first book is called the Kite and the second book is called, I think, the Bait. So these are great. So if you're, you know, if you're looking for a great male. Male romance by an Australian author, N.R. walker has tons of them. But that's like a series. I liked the Milvis Files.

[Sarah McLean]

Well, I mean, I think that speaking. I think we should. I'd like to talk a little bit about Freya Marska, who is a newer romance novelist and writes romantic fantasy. And her series I spoke about, I put them on the best of the year list two years ago, maybe. The series is. Is called the Last Binding. And it is three books, A Marvelous Light, which is mm. A Restless Truth, which is FF and then A Power Unbound, which is mm. And the books are. There's a kind of overarching mystery over the course of the whole series that really gives you a. I would not. This is one of those series that I would not recommend. While my favorite of the three is the last book in the series. They are three separate couples, so the romances themselves stand alone, but the books themselves, like, if you read the whole series altogether, it's just a much more powerful punch. And I think that. So this is a series that's set in Edwardian England. There is a kind of magical government, like a secret magical government society. And there's like a magical system and, like, witches and warlocks who live alongside humans. But we don't know that. Humans don't know, except for a very small group of humans who work for, like, the UN essentially. And, like, their job is to be, like, government, like, human liaisons to the, like, magical world. And this brings. It begins with a character who is human who is given, like, takes a post in the government and is basically told, like, oh, this post that you. That you have is actually like, you're going to be liaison to the like, magical people. And then, like, what ends up happening is he. He like meets a magic, essentially like a magical man, and they like, have to work together because there's a baddie who's stolen a thing and like, the magic is being. Being sick, is getting sick. And that baddie exists over the course of three books. Like the sort of theft of the magic and the perversion of the magic exists over three books. And so in each one. And what's interesting about this series is the books get progressively sexier. So you can see, like, Freya coming to understand how sexy she wants to write over the course of these books. And it's great. It's delicious. I'm very happy that they get sexier as they go. But also what you end up seeing is this sort of real build. And I think this is something that we've seen in a lot of romance over the last, like, say five years. But in the series, a community really builds. So by the end, it's the two. The two characters at the end in the third book in the series, like, are characters who have really come to become a part of a huge community of these. You get to see these characters again and again. So it harkens back to those, like, old school, the Stephanie Laurens, you know, where all the sinsters end up. In every book, it feels that way. It feels like Freya is really doing something. She's like, paying homage to historical. She's building out a kind of fantasy world that I think rivals any fantasy series and is also sort of playing with figuring out how to. How to write historical fantasy romance or fantasy romance in a different way. This is not Romantasy. This is fantasy romance.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Okay. I might be ready to talk about some of these categories I read. Okay. All right. So everybody, I. Knowing that Sarah was going to the. The Australian RWA thing, I went to their website because I was like, where some of these authors. Right.

[Sarah McLean]

I did too.

[Jennifer Prokop]

There's gotta be people I have, you know, didn't know or haven't heard of.

[Sarah McLean]

So many.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So many. Right. And so I ended up reading and quite a few of them were in like, kind of Harlequin. And I basically was like, all right, I'm just going to read. Like, I'm just gonna go down. Like, if something sounds like catches my interest, I'm going to read it. And I found a Harlequin romance by Michelle Douglas called a baby in his entran.

[Sarah McLean]

His what?

[Jennifer Prokop]

His in tray.

[Sarah McLean]

Oh, his in tray.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like not in tray, out tray. Right.

[Sarah McLean]

Okay, now I thought you said something totally differently.

[Jennifer Prokop]

No. Okay, now for those of you who are not aware, a Harlequin romance, ones that are pink are like closed door, no heat. But I was like, I am really won over by the charm of this title and the plot. So here's how it start. And let me tell you, I don't think I have cackled as much as I did in reading the first. Like, the whole setup of this book is fucking delightful. All right, so our main character is Liv Olivia Gilmore. Her sister is Eliza Liz. Okay. And Eliza works for this real stick in the mud Lord, Sebastian Tyrell.

[Sarah McLean]

Oh boy, a Sebastian.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right. And Liv, Okay. Liv has been essentially. Okay. Liz, the sister. The twin. They're twins. Of course. Is. Has her own adventure, clearly, probably from another book. She has to be out of the office for a week. But luckily Sebastian is also going to be out of the office. But she really. Well, so what she does is she convinces her sister, Liv Olivia. Right? Our hero. You've got to come in and just pretend to be me for a week. No one will know. My boss won't even be there. But that way I won't like, you know, use. Like I don't have any vacation time left. You wouldn't give it to me anyway. Whatever.

[Sarah McLean]

Uh huh.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So the book opens with her coming back from lunch and finding a baby in the office with a note that's basically like, to Sebastian.

[Sarah McLean]

My God.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right? So the note is your kid. Yeah. Well, no, now it's not. Right, It's. He's not, he's not sure. He. Okay, so anyway, here, so let me see this. Sarah.

[Sarah McLean]

Okay, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm jumping ahead.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So she's like, shit, I'm gonna have to call this guy. But her sister has been like, don't call him. Just like, whatever, right? The note says, sebastian, I can't do this anymore. It's not fair. You owe me. Don't let baby Jemima down. Down. The word not is underlined three times. And so she calls her sister and she's like, what the fuck am I supposed to do? There's a baby on his desk. And so she's like, should I call like Child Protective Services? Right? And she's like. So the sister's like, you're gonna have to call him. She calls this man and she's basically like, you know, he's like, Mr. Gilmore. And she's like, you know, I trust this is an emergency. And she's like. And then like, the baby starts crying and he's like, you know, is there a baby in my office? And she has to like, hang up on him because she has to change the baby. And then she calls him back and she's like, the baby is the emergency. And he was like, what? You know what I mean? And the whole thing's great. So he flies back and she's been taking care of the baby in her apartment because what else is she supposed to do? So he, like, shows up at her apartment, which is really her sister's apartment, and it's like 4 in the morning. And she's basically like yelling at him. She's like, do not look at the baby. If you look at the baby, the baby wakes up, right? And it's just. Honestly, I was really charmed by how cute this book was. And so when he gets back, he basically is like, you have to come to my place. Right. I have more. Sure.

[Sarah McLean]

We have to live together.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, of course. It's for the baby.

[Sarah McLean]

It's for the baby.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It's. It was really charming. And you know what? I kind of. I was really. I was. It was great. It was great. This is a great book. And it's really. I mean, I read it in no time at all because it's, you know, a Harlequin romance. It's, you know, probably 50,000 words. So anyway, that one is called A Baby in His In Tray.

[Sarah McLean]

Love it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. By Michelle Douglas. Michelle, you really did the job there. I had a great time reading that.

[Sarah McLean]

Michelle, you really did the job there.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I'm gonna find out. I'm gonna go read now what that sister was up to because the sister apparently had one night stand.

[Sarah McLean]

Oh, well, there you go. I mean, if there's a twin, then she's got something going on. It's just.

[Jennifer Prokop]

You'll find this man. She had a one night stand was to say she's pregnant. And I was like, super invested in all of this. This week's episode of Faded Mates is brought to you by Louisa Darling, author of Scoundrel Take Me Away.

[Sarah McLean]

This is the third book in Louisa's Dukes in Disguise series. And here we finally get Lady Lucy Lively, the youngest lively sister story. If you'll remember, for the last couple of books, Lucy has been a little bit obsessed with a mysterious highwayman named the Gentle Rogue. And this highwayman has sent her away to grow up and get her head on straight. She's gone to the continent. She's gotten her head on straight. She's back. She is loaded for bear. She is ready to get this man directly into her life. Problem is, he has no interest, or at least says he has no interest in Lucy being a part of his life. Instead, he sends her off, pats her on the head, and sends her off to, like, learn how to be an. How to be part of the aristocratic world she was born into. So to. To do that, she enlists the help of the Duke of Thorncliff, who she's always loathed. Arrogant, cruel. This is not a man she will ever fall for, or who will ever fall for her, of course, Jen, Guess who the Duke of Thorncliff really is.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I don't have to. Yes, Sarah, I know.

[Sarah McLean]

The gentle rogue himself. He is jealous of himself. You guys. It is the best. Oh, Chef's kiss. Problem is that Lucy doesn't know that the two of them are the same man. And through a little bit of, like, romance shenanigans, there is a boom amnesia situation. And he doesn't know that he is the Duke of Thorncliff. He doesn't know that he is the gentle rogue, and he definitely doesn't know that Lucy is, despite what she tells everybody, not his betrothed. What ensues is full romance shenanigans, an absolutely deliciously sexy and fun book, and you're all gonna love it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So this book just came out yesterday, so you can go off and buy it wherever books are sold. It's available in E and in print and will eventually be in audio. So if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the. Thanks to Louisa Darling for sponsoring this week's episode.

[Sarah McLean]

I want to talk about Anne Gracie, who, shockingly, we haven't spoken about in. On the podcast before. But Ann Gracie writes historicals, and her, I think probably her, like, most famous series is the Chance Sisters series, where basically, like, the premise is there are four sisters and they're all, like, super duper poor. And. No, I must have talked about this book because the Autumn Bride. It's called the Autumn Bride, the first one. And Abigail Chantry is the. Is the heroine. She is a governess and she has. She has a sister. And then she has, like, these two women who are like sisters. Like, like sisters. Not. Not her sisters, but the four of them live together and they're all very poor because they don't support anywhere. And it. And so she basically, it's like. Did you ever see that movie how.

[Jennifer Prokop]

To Marry a Millionaire? Oh, yeah, sure.

[Sarah McLean]

With. With Lauren Bacall and Marilyn Monroe. And it's just great. It's terrific old movie. And basically what she does is she finds an empty mansion and she just decides like she's gonna live in this empty mansion. Well, she gets there and there's like this, this like old lady who lives up in the rafters and like he. She's been neglected. And so the girls like all decide that they're going to move into this mansion and take care of this old lady. And so that's what they do. And then they live in this mansion and so they pass themselves off as sisters and then use this like kind of fake relationship with the old lady who lives in the house and they're fake connection to this house to then like get married. And the goal is let's get married as fast as possible. And so the first one is Autumn Bride. The Autumn Bride. And it's. It's Abigail who is the main character who's like the main. She's the one with the plan, the brains of the operation, such as it is. And she falls for like this old lady's nephew comes to town and she is fucking furious that like he has left this old lady to just be like manipulated by servants and like left in destitution in like the upper rafters of this house. And he is fucking furious she's living in his aunt's house like playing imposter. And it is really a very fun book. And then the rest of the that series is also incredibly fun. Each one of them gets their match and it's just like, you know what you want to know who can write like a solid romance that's just going to take you for a lovely, give you a lovely time.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And Gracie, I also read a. I think this was in the Harlequin Presents called the Return of Her Billionaire Husband by Melanie Milburn. And I'm going to tell you, Melanie Milbourne clearly grew up reading all the same Harlequin Presents we did. Like it felt so I felt like I. Right. Like this book is from earlier this year from February, but it could have fallen off the Harlequin presents Truck in 1987. And I say that as a compliment.

[Sarah McLean]

Perfect.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So in this one we get Julie, Juliet. Now everybody content warning or you know, on this for pregnancy loss. But basically Juliet, it starts off with her like she's showing up to be the maid of honor at her friend's wedding in like, I don't know, a place rich people go. I don't think it's in Australia. I think it's in like Italy somewhere. Whatever.

[Sarah McLean]

And.

[Jennifer Prokop]

She gets to the hotel and she really was like, I didn't really want to stay at this hotel, but because her ex husband is coming and he's not her ex yet, but she has the divorce papers in her suitcase. And so she gets there and they, they're like, you know, what's her last name? And she gives her married name Allegranza and it's, you know, first initial J. And right away I was like, oh yeah, her, her husband's name is Joe. So what do you think is going to happen? Everybody? So, so they, she gets there and she's like, gets, you know, goes to her room and she's like, you know, showering and comes out and like who has just walked in but Joe? He meanwhile has tried to check in at the front desk and found out that, you know, like, you know, there's. They're, they're sharing a suite. And he of course is like, I don't want to have to, I don't want to have to do anything. I don't, you know. And basically the story is, is that these two had a one night stand. She'd just broken up with her boyfriend friend. They had a one night stand that was like the best sex either of them had ever had in their lives. She, you know, the night's over, she then is pregnant. So she goes to find him and he insists that they marry. And then she actually, it's really like, listen, these people are devastated by the loss of this child while she was still pregnant, like at seven months. So it's like stillborn baby. And she, it just wrecked her. I mean, she talked like, right. Like Juliet sort of describes just like the feeling of just like the total loss and the devastation. And you know, their, their, their marriage had already been like really rocky. Like the sex was great, but he traveled all the time. Like typical present stuff, right? He's always off running his billionaire business and is too busy to like be with her in Italy. And so after, after they lose the baby, she just like decides she has to leave. There's nothing can be done. And this man is tortured and thinks he's a terrible person and has suffered and his mother was terrible and all sorts of terrible things happened to him. And so he doesn't believe he deserves Juliet, but nevertheless they have to share this room because he's a nice guy. And he realizes like, this is like, this is when I was like, here's romance logic for you. This man is a bill billionaire. He gets to the front desk, a billionaire with Capital B, Sarah. He gets to the front desk, and she's like, there's no more rooms. There's no rooms anywhere. And he goes out on his phone and starts calling around, and I was like, he doesn't have people. He doesn't have someone to, like, buy him a house, right, like, up the road.

[Sarah McLean]

Amazing.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So he has no choice but to go into that room and tell Juliet, like, they have to, like, put a brave face on it because. Because the groom. The. The wedding planner is the groom's cousin, Celeste. And Celeste, this is her first big job, and she's been sick with some kind of cancer, and now she's better. And I just was, like, reading this. Like, you know what? I'm not even mad. I'm not mad about any of it. I love all of it. So, of course, you know, Juliet pulls the divorce papers out, and Joe's like, I'm not gonna say.

[C]

I.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Okay. So anyway, what I'm telling you here is if you would like some real high drama, old school presents, but from 2025, the return of her billionaire husband is for you.

[Sarah McLean]

Amazing.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, it's great.

[Sarah McLean]

Well, I've got one, too that I read, and you are going to immediately download it. Okay, I read Miranda Lee's Fugitive Bride.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Because I've downloaded it right, right now, just to my brain. You said that title. Boom.

[Sarah McLean]

You should have pride. Okay, ready? So Gerard is our hero. And he is like, oh, God. Like, it begins, okay? It begins in the point of view of Gerard's secretary, who's, like, in her late 40s. So an old crone.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Gets a letter.

[Sarah McLean]

Like a Dear John letter, letter for him. And so she's opening his mail, and she opens one, and her. His wife Leah is like, hey, guess what? I overheard you talking to, like, some guy and saying that you don't love me. And you know what? You. I'm out. And she is in the wind, Jen. And on page four, I was like, this is a gen book. Because it said, like. She's like. She's like, I'm in the window wind. And it says, like, she left with nothing. She didn't take her white Porsche. She didn't take her credit cards. She didn't. Like, she was out.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Fugitive Bride. Yes.

[Sarah McLean]

Wait, so then. So, because. So we're in. In the first chapter, we're in Enid, the secretary's point of view, right? And she goes to him and she's like, hey, Gerard, you have a situation at home that you need to get in order. And he's like. He reads the letter, he like throws it on the desk. He's like, she misunderstood the conversation she heard from. She heard me saying, go to my house and tell her she misunderstood. And like, tell her that I expect her to be at this dinner tonight. Like, I'm not dealing with her woman shit. And Enid is Jen Prokop. And thinks to herself, I hope she's in the wind for fucking ever. Yes, Jen Prokop, who could double as late 40s crone Enid.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Correct.

[Sarah McLean]

So then we get. We're in Leah's. Leah's point of view. Six months later, that's chapter two, right? And she's come. She's like back in. In Sydney for some. She left with nothing. And now she's back and she's like this, like. Like I. I still want him, right? Like in her head she's like, I just want him so much. Like, why? When am I ever going to stop wanting this asshole, right? A real run, posy, run move. And then when you know it, a man turns up who looks ex. She's like a thousand percent certain that it's the husband, that it's Gerard. Twin brother. Gerard's twin brother.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Huge, huge impress. I am doing like a happy romance dance right now.

[Sarah McLean]

Sometimes I. I like, this is just romance logic.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Romance logic.

[Sarah McLean]

Anytime anybody's out there and they're like, I don't know. That doesn't seem plausible, I'm gonna be like, fuck you, fugitive bride.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like twin brother.

[Sarah McLean]

You know how you fix it? Twin brother.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Twin brother.

[Sarah McLean]

Of course, Jen. None of this goes the way you think it's gonna go. It's twisty turny. You're gonna have a great time. I'm not gonna spoil it for you or anyone else. But that is Miranda Lee's Fugitive Bride. And you can get it right now for 99 cents in E. I just.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Downloaded the hell out of that. Like, I did not. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200. Just terrific download.

[Sarah McLean]

Did you see the COVID She's wearing this, like, very cute orange dress. Her arms are above her head. Sure. Amazing.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It is. It's all great.

[Sarah McLean]

Big fan.

[Jennifer Prokop]

All right, I have one more.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah?

[Jennifer Prokop]

And you know what? It's interesting. This is from an author named Jez Da Silva. The book is called Home. This is like one of those things where there was a series, but the only the first one is still available in E. So I'll talk about this one. This is like if you love kind of like pining and guilt and you feel terrible about yourself, this book is for you. Because in a home, trauma nurse. Evelyn Watson is a trauma nurse and she has been, was like married her high school sweetheart. His name is Mark. They were, you know, kind of happily married for a long time. And but her, and her husband was a soldier and he is now he has died and so now everything, everything sucks, right? Like she's just like, I don't even know what exactly I'm going to, to do. And what happens is Mowry. Okay, so Jamie Turner is a special forces guy. He's Maori and he worked with Mark, right. So Mark was his, I don't know, like commanding officer or whatever. And you know, Jamie just really has nothing but respect for Mark and he apparently made some promises to Mark about what he was going to do to help care for Evelyn. So you know, he shows up and this is now her falling in love with the man her husband considered a brother. And this, this business, Listen, you like put it in, put it right in my veins, right? And so, you know, and I think the thing that I really remember about this book, it's been a long time since I've read it. It's just like any book like this, I am completely just in it for the heroine, right? Like to have to go through all of that and to just have to be, oh my God, the heartbreak. And now you are falling in love with this man who you should not want and you know, you just can't help. Oh, I love all that. So, you know, that's the kind of like deep seated, dramatic, like angsty goodness that like romance can really deliver. So as far as I can tell, this book is still for sale or potentially in Kindle Unlimited. There were a couple other books in the series. I think Jez, I think he wrote three books, but I think this is the only one you can now still get. So check it out. Home is the name of it.

[Sarah McLean]

Amazing. Because I'm going to be in New Zealand. I just want to name a couple of authors, authors who are from there as well. We did a deep dive on Caress by Ice, which is Jen's favorite book from that series. You should start with Slave to Sensation because it's great too. I just. Nicola Davidson, who is also a New Zealander, of course, who writes very sexy erotic historicals and they're all novellas. So even better because you can just like, like, yeah, you know, it's like an hour of your life and you've just had a great time. All sorts of kink in those. Like, they're great. My favorite is. And this one is not for Jen, but it is for Sarah. The devil's submission, which is aristocratic man and the lady who dominates him.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And I'm a bit big fan.

[Sarah McLean]

That's my whole thing. Yeah, you love that. So that's what I want for all of us. So that one. And then. So I just wanted to say those two names because I think those two people are pretty great.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well, I can't wait for you to meet all these people in person and then come back with a whole new list of, like, authors we should know about and read.

[Sarah McLean]

If you guys. If you are out there and you are listening to this episode and you are going to be be there at either of those conferences, please come and say hi because I want to read your books. My plan is just to come back with a suitcase full of books or at least a suitcase full of names.

[Jennifer Prokop]

There you go. Perfect. A Kindle full of books.

[Sarah McLean]

Maybe.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It just seems like you do that.

[Sarah McLean]

I don't know if you can do that internationally. I don't know if I could use my Kindle internationally. I gotta sort that.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well, I'm just saying. I think you can. Can probably.

[Sarah McLean]

I'm gonna make a list. I can definitely make a list of on my notes app is my I believe in you.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I believe in you, Sarah. I do.

[Sarah McLean]

I'm gonna do great. I'm gonna come back. I'm gonna have so many people. We should have done this after. And then I could have been like, I met all these people.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well, it's fine. We'll do it again.

[Sarah McLean]

We love you down under, part two. Anyway, Australia, we do love you. Thanks for being out there being cool. You know, we. You did it better than we did this independence. So, yeah, we are. I'm Sarah McLean. I'm here with my friend Jen Prokop. We are fated mates and you can find us every [e-mail] or wherever you get your podcasts. We have a new episode every Wednesday. Thanks to everybody new who is listening to us. After my tour. Thanks for coming out, meeting me on tour. We love having you. And you can also follow us online on Instagram bluesky threads. And if you really love talking about romance, you can always join the patreon, which is fatedmates.net Patreon and head over to the Discord to meet a bunch of new friends who love to hang out and talk about romance all the time. Our next read along is Susan Elizabeth Phillips's Natural Born Charmer. You're all going to have a deliciously wonderful time reading that. We can't wait to talk about it. And if you are interested in American politics or maybe you're not interested, but you just know that you got to get involved. Head over to fatedmates.net faded states where you can sign up up to hear from us when we are ready to get our phone banking up and running for the new election season and to learn more about our partnership with the States Project where we are helping to raise money to flip seats local senate and local house seats in the state of Virginia this year. So we're going to talk a little bit more about that as we get closer to bit a little election day in November. But we want you to know that that's what we're doing. Our partnership with the States Project is really important to us because we have, we are very clear now on the fact that it's states legislatures that are going to win the day for us. So that is all of that and thanks so much to our sponsors and to everybody who listens every week. We love you.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Ready?

[D]

Hit it.

[C]

What did the ghost eat for breakfast?

[D]

Cereal with blueberries?

[C]

Nope.

[D]

Dreaded wheat?

[C]

Nope.

[D]

Bagel and scream cheese.

[C]

Nice and nope.

[D]

Okay, what?

[C]

S' mores with extra marsh yellows?

[D]

No, absolutely not. S' mores for breakfast? Uh, I'm calling shenanigans.

[C]

He's kinda going through a lot right now.

[D]

Someone on the radio said something about the sun going out forever in a month or so, but we all knew the end was near.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Nothing to be done from here, so.

[D]

I shake my head and off to bed I go.

[C]

Hello once again to you, our beloved audience. Hello, and hello to you, Jamie, my favorite elected office holder in all the West.

[D]

I still cannot believe that happened. Hello to me, Malik, my favorite co host of all the pods.

[C]

Hi.

[D]

This is world Gone Wrong, where we discuss and analyze the slings and arrows.

[C]

Of our increasingly outrageous fortune.

[D]

Those we are roommates. Except when we aren't at this exact.

[C]

Second, we are roommates pinned apart by a moment in time.

[D]

Yes, today we're bringing back an old segment.

[C]

Were we ever so young? Because a listener and not Jamie's dad. For the record, we're staying anonymous. But that's the only clue I'll give you.

[D]

An anonymous listener.

[C]

We can only promise this person wasn't at Jamie's birth.

[D]

If you keep interjecting, this episode will.

[C]

Be like an hour long, an hour of audio gold. Sorry.

[D]

But yeah, we got a real live question in our inbox this week.

[C]

Of course we did. They needed a fresh take on their situation and they came to the experts because we're here to help. If opinions were doubloons, we would be rolling in wealth. So we will grant you this boon. Cause we are here to help. Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

Okay.

[D]

You absolutely did not come up with that on the spot.

[C]

I'll never, never tell.

[D]

Do you want to read it or should I?

[C]

You go ahead.

[D]

Okay. Hey, Malik and Jamie. Love the show.

[C]

Why, thank you.

[D]

I was wondering if you could give me some advice. My boyfriend and I moved in together over the winter. We were lucky enough to find a gorgeous old two bedroom, but since the owls.

[C]

Sorry, what?

[D]

O, W, s, parentheses. Onset of weird shit.

[C]

That's one way to say it.

[D]

Since the owls. We're sharing our place with a ghost from the 1920s now named Maude. Our question is, can we get away with breaking our lease over this additional info? She's definitely not a poltergeist, so Walker versus Cunningham doesn't apply. Hang on. I need to open up a window and do a little quick search.

[C]

Oh, no, I know this one. The ruling came down last month. This family in Boise sued their realtor for not mentioning that the house was haunted by a spirit.

[D]

Is that a thing? Do we have legal precedent?

[C]

Well, it was a poultry. It liked to throw dishes so their attorney could argue it was a safety hazard. Like if the house had been used to make meth or something. Then they won the case. The realtor had to pay all kinds of damages and maybe got disbarred.

[D]

How'd the realtor know about the ghost?

[C]

She swore she didn't, but they were able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the ghost had tried to throw a sink at her.

[D]

How'd you know about this?

[C]

Oh, Riley's been following the case. Like you follow women's hockey or like you follow who's dating who in women's hockey. Hey, now, remember how Riley broke their lease because of mice that apparently only they could see? Which could mean ghost mice?

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

The thought is the Boise case could set a precedent. This has to be a wild time to be a lawyer, though. A lot of sentences that have never been said before in the history of human language. Sentences and sentences.

[D]

Hey, speaking of sentences, the matter at hand.

[C]

The email. Yes, continue.

[D]

I've never broken a lease before. I don't want to get saddled with a huge penalty, especially because the lease is in my name and I already pay most of the rent. But my boyfriend says if we don't move out by the end of the week, he's leaving on his own. Signed. Fantasmically frustrated in Finger Lakes.

[C]

Finger Lakes? Okay, I forgot the part where you're a 13 year old boy. It's a real place. I don't know why the questioner couldn't just say Western New York. I mean, I guess it would screw up the alliteration.

[Sarah McLean]

Anyway.

[C]

Anyway, this is a crunchy one. A lot of angles, a lot of textures. A real meal of a question.

[D]

Wait. Okay, there's a. P.S. exercising the apartment is not an option. Even if we discover there are genuine exorcists out there between now and when you read this, Maude doesn't want to go. And banishing her back to the nether realms or whatever seems like a real dick move. She's really cool, considerate, and surprisingly funny. And in a few months, we've become something like best friends. I think my boyfriend wants us to leave, partly because he's jealous. Ha ha. Please help. I can't be single again. Oh, no.

[C]

Wow. Okay, late breaking plot twist, are we?

[D]

I'm looking at your face and I'm thinking we might be on the same page with this one.

[C]

Ooh. On three, let's both say our knee jerk response.

[D]

Love it. Okay. One, two.

[Jennifer Prokop]

You need your break up with your boyfriend.

[C]

Will you look at that?

[D]

Oh, we did it.

[C]

Honestly, I've got chills.

[D]

We can address the substance of the question in a sec. Actually, hang on. I'm gonna shoot a quick text to Riley and get something like a legal perspective on the situation.

[C]

Oh, have you two been texting?

[D]

Sometimes. Why?

[C]

Nothing. Love it when my friends are friends. Text my friend. Who is your friend? Friends everywhere.

[D]

Yeah, I think it needs to be said first. We have enough clues to pass judgment on the boyfriend for sure. Malik, do you want to explain your. Our reason?

[C]

Reasoning jealousy over a platonic friend isn't cute.

[D]

Yeah, that's where I'm at too. Don't get me wrong. Most people who are dating feel jealousy at some point.

[C]

A little jealousy is normal. It's a common human emotion.

[D]

But there's. I feel weird because you laughed a little too long at that hot server's joke. And then there's. You're not allowed to have other close relationships, so regardless of whether or not that person's alive, it feels like a deal breaker.

[C]

Yeah. And also, relationships are a conversation, right? Ongoing. You tweak, you adjust, you put yourself on the line and admit when something's actually bothering you so that you can both move forward. If you feel like, hey, I want more alone time with you because the phantom is always hanging around. It's a two bedroom, right?

[D]

Yeah, that Much we know.

[C]

Then you communicate that to your partner in clear sentences. And that could be nice. You set up a date night a couple of times a week where the ghost can, like, watch TV in the other room to just say, no, we need to break our lease. That's not how adults deal with their feelings.

[D]

Frankly, that's not someone who's ready to live with the person he's dating.

[C]

Question. Are we being too harsh?

[D]

What I keep coming back to, question asker, is you didn't say you loved him or that you enjoyed his company or something. What you said was you don't want to be single.

[Sarah McLean]

Ooh.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And look, maybe. Maybe it was a flippant little remark we shouldn't take too serious, but being single can be hard. We're both.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Okay.

[D]

Malik's nodding. We're both single right now. This is a challenging time to be on the dating scene. It was even before this became a challenging time to be alive on the planet. The apps are a slog. You have to meet dozens of people before you find one you can even tolerate.

[C]

A bad date can leave you feeling like your soul is being sucked out through your eyeballs.

[D]

The cost of dinner and drinks with people you don't even even like can start to actually stack us.

[C]

Plus, nightlife has really taken a hit since the werewolves and vampires started working together.

[D]

Dating after sundown is basically a non starter.

[C]

Good for the coffee industry, bad for liquor and late night live music.

[D]

Plus, I could. I could be projecting. But when, Just for instance, when you start your love life somewhat late. Like, okay, when you spend middle school and high school as the weird kid that nobody ever seems to have a.

[C]

Crush on, or the queer kid, or.

[D]

The weird queer kid you. You know, just hypothetically, for the record.

[C]

We would have been friends in an instant.

[Sarah McLean]

Oh, God.

[D]

You would have learned way, way more about Sailor Moon than you ever wanted.

[C]

So a lot like our modern day friendship.

[D]

I thought it was seriously so cool that Sailor Neptune and Sailor Uranus were together in the original Japanese version. And I couldn't explain why. I just thought about it all the time.

[C]

For sure.

[D]

But back to the matter at hand.

[C]

Your catchphrase.

[D]

Yeah, that's my reoccurring segment. Back to the matter at hand.

[C]

Being unattached.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[D]

When you look around and everyone is partnering up before you and that goes on for years, I think you can hit this phenomenon where you mentally classify yourself as someone who will always be single. You sort yourself into the bucket of other people aren't interested in me. And then whenever you Are in a relationship. Instead of proving that wrong, it sparks this sense that this is your last chance.

[C]

A scarcity mentality.

[D]

Exactly. Even people who date a lot can fall prey to this if they never re evaluated after high school.

[C]

It seeps into the groundwater of your self perception. Like pesticides.

[D]

Exactly. And real quick, the other thing I have to say before we get into ghost law.

[C]

Ghost law? A dead lawyer trying to solve their own murder. That's. That already exists, right? It has to.

[D]

It's fun to complain about the people you meet on the Internet apps. Or maybe not fun, but it can get you through a lot.

[C]

Ooh, remember that girl on hinge who scheduled a work meeting during your first date?

[D]

She didn't understand why I was annoyed. She thought she was in the clear. Because she brought me along.

[C]

And because she gave you a free bagel from the meeting.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah.

[D]

And not anything to put on it at all. Which is just.

[C]

A dry bagel is more of an obligation than a food. An ironclad commitment to chewing.

[D]

It can be a huge relief to complain about being single to other single people.

[C]

Absolutely.

[D]

But I think we can lose sight of the benefits of not dating anyone. You have way more flexibility and freedom. And you have time to learn how to enjoy your own company.

[C]

I'd rather enjoy my own company with someone else. The right someone else. But.

[D]

Sure. But there are items in the pro column that aren't in the column for dating someone who's wrong for you. It's actually harder to figure out who you are, for one thing. And. Okay. And are tied down emotionally and schedule wise to some. Someone that you know you're gonna have to leave eventually.

[C]

True.

[D]

Whatever you do. Ghost. No. Ghost. Please don't stay with someone just because you're afraid of being single.

[C]

Please live your life.

[D]

You know, like, channel that energy into other things. Your career, your hobbies, a little introspection.

[C]

Your friendship with Maude.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sure.

[C]

Best friend, roommates. That is a dream.

[D]

Oh, truly.

[C]

Half the rent, twice the fun.

[D]

Granted. Okay, Maude's not paying rent.

[C]

And if she's bound to one place and incorporeal, she'll probably have trouble earning a paycheck.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Needing a job after you die.

[D]

Oh, yeah. Even hell doesn't traditionally make like you clock your hours.

[C]

I'm blaming Reagan for this. That's usually a safe bet. Like six degrees of Kevin Bacon. But for ways this country's fucked up. Are there. What could a ghost actually do to earn money? Are there ghost jobs?

[D]

Farming ghost peppers?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, God.

[D]

Working for a ghost kitchen. Ooh Reviewing the movie Ghost?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Come on. I don't know.

[D]

Data entry? No, you need to be able to, like, push buttons on a keyboard.

[C]

Freelance writers. The same problem. Oh, you know what we should do? We should have a program like the old WPA in the Depression. We should pay all the night workers who are out of a job to interview ghosts.

[Sarah McLean]

Huh.

[D]

That's fascinating, right?

[C]

I mean, talk about primary sources.

[D]

Well, the ghosts could lie.

[C]

Primary documents lie.

[D]

Sometimes it does seem like a waste. We're not doing more with this sudden. Like, with this influx of undead voices.

[C]

Plus, they could vanish tomorrow. It's good to have a record.

[D]

You make a valid point.

[C]

Especially like a lot of what we get in schools is the adventures of rich white guys. Now we can talk to actual people from the actual time. The ones who were left out of the story. The ones who couldn't read or never wrote anything down and were ignored when they tried. With the little work, we could decolonize an entire field of study.

[D]

I'm sold.

[C]

Well, you're in government now, so make it happen.

[D]

I'll bring it up in the next meeting. If they let the town council secretary do that.

[C]

But in the meantime, we would need a task force. Multilingual, obviously. As many languages as we can find. Train them on giving good interviews, asking the right questions, the right follow up questions. Also key. Although a bunch of bartenders and late night servers, that's kind of already what they do.

[D]

You know where this breaks down?

[C]

Where?

[D]

Money.

[C]

Money. Damn it, I forgot about money again.

[D]

I don't see any government shelling out funds for infants about the past, given what a disaster the present is.

[C]

Chicago won't even pay to keep the pink line clear of bat droppings from all the. Yeah, it's so gross. The cars reek. It's like an ammonia kind of smell. People have started bringing towels to sit on and sometimes air freshener. It's getting very cramped in there. Smell wise.

[D]

Why even take the L if you can fly? Or turn into blood mist. Isn't that like the whole thing?

[C]

Until the treaty, pigeon wolves were attacking them in the open. I think they figured the L was safer. Not so safe for us, though.

[D]

I've never been so glad to live far from public transit.

[C]

Yeah, hate to say it, but you might have a little culture shock when you get back.

[Sarah McLean]

True.

[D]

But you know what?

[C]

What?

[D]

Back to the matter at Hair.

[C]

Yes, our topic. So you can't leave the premises and you can't touch anything. What does that leave for a job?

[D]

You might still be able to make and answer calls. Like, if you have. Have one of those. Voice activated yes.

[C]

They could be telemarketers. Oh, God, I just made myself so, so sad.

[D]

Although, have you noticed ghosts tend to glitch out any technology from after they died?

[C]

Mod's from the 20s, though. Phones should still work for her an eternity. And phone sales.

[D]

Ugh.

[C]

Yeah, I think I'd rather be a squatter.

[D]

Ooh, is that where a garden variety ghost stands? Legally, if they're not paying anything to live there, are they just. Are they squatting?

[C]

Keep in mind, my two windows into property law are, one, I'm living with an ex law student.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And.

[C]

And two, I've seen rent, but that's the closest parallel I can think of if they were living there since they died. Maude's been kicking around on the property for, like, 100 years. If that doesn't get you squatters rights, what does?

[D]

Doesn't the unit need to be vacated for that to count?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Hmm.

[D]

Of course, you could argue it has been empty of other ghosts.

[C]

Oh, no.

[D]

What?

[C]

I'm just realizing where this is headed. Like, we got on the rollercoaster without realizing, and the bar just clunked down over our lapse. Where are ghosts? People? Like, legally, but ethically, too?

[D]

Oh, no.

[C]

And if they aren't, what are they?

[D]

Okay, let's say on three whether or not ghosts should count as people.

[C]

One, two.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Absolutely.

[D]

Of course they do. Oh, no. You know what we need?

[C]

A serious conversation about personhood.

[D]

Yeah, after a little commercial break.

[C]

Hmm. Back from the break with my co host, who I just learned doesn't believe in the basic humanity of ghosts.

[D]

What defines a person? What's universal? We eat, we breathe, we sleep. And get ready for the Kickstarter sticker. Someday we will die. If you get more specific than that, you're excluding someone. Do ghosts do any of those things?

[C]

Legally, a corporation is a person. Why not the dead?

[D]

Okay, but neither of us think corporations should count. And it's because. All right, it's for a lot of reasons, but one of them is you can't hold a corporation accountable in the same way. Right? You can find a corporation, but you can't put it in jail. And how can you even punish a ghost? House arrest. Waka waka. That's their whole. Like, that's their whole afterlife.

[C]

Can we not bring the prison industrial complex into this? Like, can we not.

[D]

I don't think we should be throwing anyone in jail. But think about it. Think about ownership, okay? When someone dies, they stop legally owning things. If we upset that A whole lot of inheritance law is about to get very messy. We've just established they can't hold most jobs.

[C]

Yeah, which would be a good argument if your worth was determined by your output under capital. All kinds of people can't work or can't work most jobs. They're definitely still people, Malik.

[D]

I'm not saying that, except to imply.

[C]

Humanity is tied to work status.

[D]

Isn't it tied to breathing and living and knowing you'll die someday? This is teetering towards unborn fetuses as people.

[C]

Ghosts were born. By definition, they're conscious. If dolphins and whales have legal protections.

[D]

The rules don't apply to them is what I'm trying to say. We're talking about them paying rent, but they don't take up space. They won't benefit from heat or ac. They'll never finish the last of the yogurt and forget to put it back on the shopping list.

[C]

Okay, that last one feels personal.

[D]

It is.

[C]

Ouch.

[D]

They don't have bodies. If ghosts are people, what else passes muster? Do ideas deserve rights? Do songs do memories?

[C]

It's not the same at all, though. They have minds, they have personalities. A lot of people would say they have souls.

[D]

The soul is a construct of the human imagination.

[C]

Like almost every world, religion disagrees with you.

[D]

Show me the soul. Find me an anatomy book and point to the soul.

[C]

Ghosts, Jamie. Ghosts are souls. You can't say they're the sum of electric waves running across brain meat. Their brain meat is gone, but they still exist. They have likes and dislikes and stories that need to be heard. They can make decisions. You can hurt their feelings. You can't hurt a corporation's feelings or even a dolphin's feelings.

[D]

So we're bringing this down to feelings that seems not nebulous.

[C]

Look around you. Real life is nebulous. I can't believe you would dismiss ghosts like that.

[D]

I'm not dismissing them. I'm saying they shouldn't have to pay rent. I don't think we can look at them with the same framework.

[C]

Do you think you should be able to break a lease because your apartment has a spirit in it?

[D]

I don't think so.

[C]

Really?

[D]

Like I said, what do they consume? Technically, they don't even take up space. So they're not taking anything away from you. 09.

[C]

So you, Jamie, would be 100% fine if a phantom showed up in your place.

[D]

Depends how and how recently they died. If they were electrocuted by faulty wiring or the heater gave them carbon monoxide poisoning or something. I Wouldn't be thrilled.

[C]

Hmm. A ghost in your kitchen, watching you caramelize onions. Just watching. With empty eye sockets that go all the way back.

[D]

If they were a good cook, while they were alive, they could have pointers.

[C]

A ghost in your lid, skittering around behind you, complaining about how you always watch TV from your computer.

[D]

If it bothers them, I'll shut my laptop and neither of us get to watch anything.

[C]

Okay, Jamie, you're getting back from a party. You were talking and listening to other people for hours. You are totally peopled out. You slip your key in the door, turn the knob, and a ghost is waiting by the coat rack. She wants to tell you all about her day.

[D]

Point.

[C]

What was that?

[D]

Yeah, okay, you've got a point. When you rent an apartment or a house, part of what you're paying for is privacy.

[C]

Exactly. And if a ghost is enough of a person to make you feel like.

[D]

You'Re not alone, a ghost is a person in some nebulous way.

[C]

Now, if someone breaks a lease because of a haunting, that unit still has to be filled. And the ghost's not going anywhere. So probably the landlord should go to the ghost and agree on some basic guidelines. Observe quiet hours. Don't phase into people's bedrooms without permission.

[D]

No slithering out of the bathtub with wet hair over your face when someone comes in to use the toilet at 2am Reasonable.

[C]

Actionable. A good boundary.

[D]

What's the ghost's incentive to follow the rules?

[C]

Hmm.

[D]

Threatening them with an exorcism seems like a non starter.

[C]

Yeah. Again, even if exorcisms were a thing, have you heard any reports of someone busting a ghost?

[D]

Not successfully. And like, in order for that to even be possible, we need to understand what's happening with them on a molecular level. Which we definitely don't at the moment. Fermilab's doing their best, but they don't even know what equipment they'd need yet. Not to mention transporting it to, like, somewhere haunted.

[C]

And if it's an art, not a.

[D]

Science, if they're genuinely spiritual beings, then we need to understand the afterlife. And given that we don't have documentation of a religious leader predicting any of this, and certainly nobody has predicted all of this.

[C]

True. We've got a lot to learn.

[D]

Sunning them back to, I don't know, oblivion is a little too close to killing. Causing something that was born and existed to not exist anymore. So why cooperate? Realistically, they can't be punished.

[C]

Maybe we're looking at this from the wrong angle. I feel like we need to think beyond the carceral mindset. When you're trying to get living people to do something. Punishment's not the only option.

[D]

Carrot nonstick.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[C]

See, this comes back to interviewing ghosts again. What do they want? What do they not want? Something we do have in common. We all have desires of some kind. The landlord and the roommates have the power to make a ghost's life afterlife. Sure, they can make it way better. So you get any phantoms in the building on board. And then you explain the whole situation to anyone thinking about moving in.

[D]

Like Walker versus Cunningham.

[C]

Like there's already someone living in the unit inhabiting it. You know what I mean?

[D]

What if the ghost wants something you can't stand? Like four hours of Jimmy Buffett every night?

[C]

That's your worst case scenario.

[D]

What if they always want to marathon a TV show you hate? Or what if they're really nosy? Or they're like, always humming off key?

[C]

Then it's like finding an apartment that's far from work. Or that doesn't allow cats. You keep looking.

[D]

You need to find the specific situation that's right for you and then do the work. It's like friendship or love.

[C]

Did Riley get back to you yet?

[D]

Oh, hey, they did.

[C]

What did they say?

[D]

Happy to help. Normally, I'd say they need to reread their lease agreement. The rules governing when and how you can break your lease can vary from building to building. But if I may nerd out for a sec, in this case, we're talking New York. And New York is the only state in the union that legally requires disclosure of any hauntings before a property. Property is sold. This is totally separate from Walker vs Cunningham.

[Sarah McLean]

BTW.

[D]

Doesn't matter in this case if it's a dangerous poltergeist or Casper's little brother. Fun fact. This ruling happened pre calamity in 1991. In fact, they texted all that. Well, they were almost a lawyer. They like words and. Ha ha, ha. Oh, P.S. can you ask Malik to put yogurt on the list?

[C]

They did not really.

[D]

Sending you a screenshot.

[C]

Screenshots can be edited.

[D]

Okay, they're home right now. You can ask them. Are you, in fact, out of yogurt?

[C]

Back to the matter at hand.

[D]

Okay, okay.

[C]

In summary.

[D]

In summary, the questioner should break up with their boyfriend.

[C]

In a world of hypotheticals, it's good to have something solid to fall back on.

[D]

Mod sounds like a lot of fun.

[C]

She really does.

[D]

We've landed on Ghosts are People. Kind of.

[C]

I'd say more than kind of.

[D]

That's fair.

[C]

It's been a joy getting esoteric with you and you.

[D]

And this is a note for future Malik when you're editing this episode. Yogurt.

[C]

Got it.

[D]

Oh, and a reminder for you future listener, if you want to support the show and get AD free episodes, you can become a member for $5 a month. If you use Apple Podcasts, you can do it right there in the app. Or you can go to audaciousmachinecreative.com and become a member there.

[C]

And you'd be helping to fund my coffee habit and apparently yogurt buying.

[D]

This is Jamie and Malik signing out.

[C]

We know things are getting weirder every day, but we hope you're baseline and we wish you all a better tomorrow.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And even when it's ashes, there'll be.

[D]

Part of me that wishes we could stay.

[C]

Jamie and Malik are played by Hilary Williams and Michael Turrentine.

[Sarah McLean]

This episode was written by Jessica Best.

[C]

Directed and edited by Jeffrey Mills Gardner.

[Sarah McLean]

Our show art is by Carly Fairbanks.

[C]

And our Bangin theme song is Falling in Love at the End of the World by Olivia and the Lovers.

[Sarah McLean]

World Gone Wrong is produced and created by Jeffrey Nils Gardner and Eleanor Hyde.

[C]

This is a production of Audacious Machine Creative.