07.46: Natural Born Charmer by Susan Elizabeth Phillips

Summary

Podcast Summary: Fated Mates - Romance Books for Novel People

Episode: 07.46: Natural Born Charmer by Susan Elizabeth Phillips
Release Date: August 6, 2025
Hosts: Sarah MacLean & Jen Prokop

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Introduction

In this episode of Fated Mates, co-hosts Sarah MacLean and Jen Prokop delve deep into Susan Elizabeth Phillips' enchanting romance novel, Natural Born Charmer. With their keen insights and engaging banter, they explore the intricacies of the book, its characters, and the broader themes it presents within the romance genre.

Initial Impressions and Context

Sarah begins by sharing a nostalgic yet humorous recount of her initial encounter with Natural Born Charmer, highlighting a moment of false memory regarding its publication date. This sets the stage for a discussion about the book's enduring impact and its place within Phillips' extensive bibliography.

• Sarah McLean [04:21]: "We're reading Susan Elizabeth Phillips's Natural Born Charmer, which is a delight from the title all the way on down."

Jen echoes Sarah's enthusiasm, noting the resurgence of Susan Elizabeth Phillips' backlist and her own recent re-engagement with Phillips' works after a hiatus.

• Jennifer Prokop [06:15]: "I picked up a bunch of books that I either didn't own in e or used to have in Paper, but didn't anymore."

Plot Overview

The hosts provide a comprehensive overview of the novel's plot, detailing the journey of Blue Bailey and Dean Robillard. Blue, dressed in a beaver costume, finds herself stranded and in financial distress after her mother's misguided attempts to free prisoners siphon her savings. Dean, a disgruntled NFL quarterback, reluctantly picks her up, leading to an unexpected road trip filled with personal revelations and budding romance.

• Jen Prokop [27:02]: "Blue Bailey is out on the side of the road, Beaver costume when Dean Robillard, a vagabond NFL quarterback from the Chicago Stars, drives by in his Aston Martin Vanquish and for shits and giggles, like, basically stops to help her."

Character Analysis

Blue Bailey:
Blue is portrayed as a resilient and edgy heroine with a tough exterior masking her vulnerable past. Sarah and Jen commend Phillips for crafting a character whose trauma is intricately woven into her personality without defining her entirely.

• Sarah McLean [31:07]: "The way Susan delivers Blue's Trauma is over the course of two pages... by the end of it, you feel like you have been through war with this character."

Dean Robillard:
Dean is depicted as a successful yet emotionally stunted quarterback grappling with his parents' neglect. His journey towards emotional openness and vulnerability is a central theme in the novel.

• Jennifer Prokop [42:17]: "Dean is wildly successful and hugely independent... He has to break down his strategies through falling in love."

April and Jack Patriot:
Dean's estranged mother, April, and his half-sister, Jack Patriot, add layers of familial tension and complexity. Their interactions bring out themes of redemption and the struggles of reconciling past mistakes.

Themes and Insights

Trauma and Healing:
The discussion highlights how Phillips masterfully portrays characters dealing with past traumas. Blue's and Dean's journeys emphasize the importance of confronting and healing from one's past to embrace love fully.

• Sarah McLean [15:22]: "We are losing plot... the books largely do not have a plot. The book is all characters stuck in trope."
  (Note: This quote reflects a broader genre critique, contextualizing Natural Born Charmer as a plot-driven narrative with strong character development.)

Fearlessness in Writing:
Sarah and Jen delve into the concept of fearlessness in romance novels, praising Phillips for her ability to address sensitive topics like racism, homophobia, and gender stereotypes without shaming or flattening her characters.

• Jen Prokop [40:26]: "Fearlessness and romance is like the most fearless books are the ones that are like, really okay with showing people as being emotionally vulnerable and people being flawed."

Comedic Romance vs. Rom-Com:
The hosts differentiate between comedic romance and the often superficial label of "rom-com," advocating for a more nuanced understanding of humor within romantic narratives.

• Sarah McLean [82:40]: "The way they deploy the slapstick humor is so careful... It is a misfire when a writer aims for a rom com because I don't think Susan is really writing a rom com."

Susan Elizabeth Phillips' Writing Style

Sarah and Jen commend Phillips for her sharp banter, well-crafted humor, and the seamless integration of serious themes within a comedic framework. They discuss how Phillips balances humor with deep emotional moments, making her characters relatable and their journeys compelling.

• Jennifer Prokop [83:57]: "The banter is really unparalleled. I laugh so hard."

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Natural Born Charmer stands out as a testament to Susan Elizabeth Phillips' ability to blend humor, romance, and profound character development. Sarah and Jen emphasize the book's enduring relevance and its exemplary handling of complex themes, recommending it to both long-time fans and new readers seeking a richly woven romantic tale.

• Sarah McLean [84:40]: "I think it's the best version of a romance. Of a comedic romance that you can find. I think Susan's just funny."

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Key Takeaways:

• Natural Born Charmer offers a deep exploration of trauma, healing, and the complexities of love.
• Susan Elizabeth Phillips excels in creating multidimensional characters with authentic flaws and strengths.
• The novel distinguishes itself through its careful balance of humor and emotional depth, setting a high standard for comedic romances.
• Themes of fearlessness, authenticity, and the importance of plot over mere tropes are central to the discussion.

Whether you're revisiting Phillips' works or discovering them anew, this episode provides valuable insights into why Natural Born Charmer remains a beloved staple in the romance genre.

Transcript

[Sarah McLean]

John, I think I'm giving myself brain damage.

[Jennifer Prokop]

What an opening. Sarah, Tell me more.

[Sarah McLean]

Okay, so there's so many mosquitoes in my backyard.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, that seems terrible.

[Sarah McLean]

And I, like, refuse to, like. I like to sit at my back. I have, like, a picnic table back there, and I like to sit there, and I've been reading a book. Seems nice for today. And I have been working on a book, and I like. You know, in New York City, you get, like, 10 days a year where the weather is, like, sunny and perfect, and you can sit at your picnic table and work on your book.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sure.

[Sarah McLean]

And so I've been, like, really working. I've been doing this. Except there are so many mosquitoes back there. And I think it's because my neighbors.

[Jennifer Prokop]

They have, like, standing water back there. What do they do?

[Sarah McLean]

They have, like, a kiddie pool back there.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Breeding ground.

[Sarah McLean]

You're just like. You're just breeding West Nile virus back here. Like, I don't know what's going on here, but. And so there are so many mosquitoes. So I have these, like, green coil things. Do you know the things I mean? Like, you.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, sure. Mosquito. A baby in Ohio.

[Sarah McLean]

They had them when you were small, and you, like, light them on fire and they smoke, and they actually, according to wirecutter, are, like, the thing that works. So I have one of them, and it's been sitting, like, three feet from my head for a couple days, and now I have, like, a headache, and I'm pretty sure I'm, like, fumigating my brain, which, you know, maybe that's a good thing. Who can say?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Who can say, you know, wire cutter. I. We had to get a new. Or. Washer died last week, and, you know, the tariffs are coming, so I was kind of like, all right, well, get it now. Get it now and just do, like, washer and dryer. Right. And so I. It. We. I was home, my husband. It was a very stressful long. You know, my husband had a lot going on at work last week. Mr. Weeds romance. And so I was kind of like, all right, I'm just gonna. You know, I told you. We texted, and I was kind of like, I think we should just get new ones. Because, you know, by the time you get someone out to look at it, you're paying. You know what I mean? Like, you're paying a couple hundred bucks for that. And then they're like, okay, it's. You know, you're just like, whatever. I'm already. Let's just go with the new ones. And then he's like, well, do you just order the same ones? And I was like, no, I just.

[Sarah McLean]

Ordered whatever wire cutter ones on wire cutter.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I don't. I don't make decisions about. I don't either. Appliances.

[Sarah McLean]

Somebody recently on the podcast. But, like, Wirecutter is like, that's just where I go for things.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sure. They know.

[Sarah McLean]

They say to buy this one.

[Jennifer Prokop]

That's the one I got. And so now, everybody, I have a very nice LG washer dryer in my house. It's very quiet.

[Sarah McLean]

Chronic researcher, though. Oh, no, not one of those in your house. We have a. I have a chronic researcher in my house. And so it can take days. No, it took hours for him to decide that. It's the wire cutter.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well, you know, here's the thing, though. I will say, eric, I can. I can fall down that rabbit hole, but we are leaving to go on vacation, and you need to have a washer dryer before you go. And also when you get back and.

[Sarah McLean]

Immediately when you return.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And so I just was like, you know what? It's Wednesday when this thing. And we gotta get it done. And they delivered them on Saturday and terrific work, everybody. Well done. To Best Buy and the Wirecutter and the LG Corporation.

[Sarah McLean]

This episode sponsored by.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, amazing. So anyway, I did.

[Sarah McLean]

So there it is.

[Jennifer Prokop]

This real nice. Very quiet. Very quiet.

[Sarah McLean]

Whisper soft. I bet it's called that or something.

[Jennifer Prokop]

That's what.

[Sarah McLean]

That's what they call all those things now, like, whisper soft. Welcome, everyone. Faded Maids. We are not Whisper Soft. I am Sarah McLean. I read romance novels and I write them.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I'm Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader and editor.

[Sarah McLean]

I don't think we've ever been whisper soft in either of us in our lives.

[Jennifer Prokop]

No, never.

[Sarah McLean]

Anyway, we are here today. We're gonna do a deep dive of a book that we both really like, as per usual. And I'm excited about it because I had a memory of reading this book that is false. A false memory. No, I have read it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I don't think I had.

[Sarah McLean]

I thought. I thought I had read it long before it came out. So there is that.

[Jennifer Prokop]

You're like, I read this back in 1997.

[Sarah McLean]

I did. Because there's. Okay, so we're reading Susan Elizabeth Phillips's Natural Born Charmer, which is a delight from the title all the way on down. Yeah, listen, Susan is great. We have established that we are on the record for being very big Susan fans here at Faded Mates. But here's the deal. I was like, you know, happily reading this book about A beaver down the highway.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, perfect.

[Sarah McLean]

Perfect opening. We'll get to it. And then they're listening to the radio and they listen to, like, you two. And then.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And then, like, there's a Coldplay reference.

[Sarah McLean]

I think Nickelback and Coldplay. And you're like, what's going on? Like, and then I was like, surely this is not like, how, how. Because I'm pretty sure this book, in my mind, I read Nobody's Baby But Mine, which came out in the 90s.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah McLean]

And then immediately read Natural Born Charmer. This is not accurate because that's just.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Not how this book came out in 2007.

[Sarah McLean]

Yes, exactly. And so it's funny because I feel like. I mean, like, obviously we're gonna get into lots of different things, but I feel like the references, the modern day of contemporary references in this book really, like, made me. Gave me a sort of shock. A shock to my. My space time continuum.

[Jennifer Prokop]

You know, I love talking about pop culture references in. In books. So that could be. We'll put it on the list.

[Sarah McLean]

There are a lot of them in this book too.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. So here's, here's what's interesting. Okay, so this Natural Born Charm came out in February of 2007. And I. I, Ted, I did not read it until very recently when. Okay, maybe in June almost. It all of Susan's backlist went on sale for like two bucks a book. And I picked up a bunch of books that I either didn't own in E or used to have in Paper, but didn't anymore. You know, things like that. And so, um. And you know, it's really interesting because I in, like you in the 90s, definitely was like a hardcore Susan Elizabeth Phillips reader. And then I was kind of like, when was my. Like, what was my last one? And I think it was Match Me if youf Can. That's like purely based on the title.

[Sarah McLean]

Like the COVID You mean that's very recent.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, it was 2005. And it would have been like, wait, really? Yeah. Sarah, once again.

[Sarah McLean]

So it's not that recent.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well, it was two years before this book.

[Sarah McLean]

And you haven't read a Susan book since then. Like, you haven't read these, like, Mr. Call me irresistible or.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I hadn't read any of those. I had. And you know what? I recently kind of picked back up with the Chicago Stars. Like kind of in the past year or two. Like, there's some new ones that have come out. Like there was one called When Stars Collide and Simply the Best. I like Simply the Best, actually. A lot. So the thing that was really interesting is for me, and I don't know if you had this everybody, if you have ever had children, there's what in our family, our household, we call like, the dark years. And the dark years are like, really popular things that songs, movies, music, TV shows that everyone knows.

[Sarah McLean]

And you had an infant at home.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And I had an infant at home. Like, my best dark years is, I swear to God, I had never heard the song hey ya by outkast until maybe he was like 13.

[Sarah McLean]

And until you were in an elevator.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Somewhere much older, I've never heard this song. And literally someone's like, how is that possible? And I was like, what do you mean? It the summer he was born, essentially was like number one for 35 weeks in a row, right? Something crazy. So I was like, yeah, I don't know. I've never heard that song in my life now. And it's funny because Match Me if youf can also should have been in the Dark Years. But sometimes a book would squeak through. But like Natural Born Charmer, we had literally, like, just moved to Chicago. It was, you know, those were like hard times, the baby and a new place to live and all that stuff. So, yeah, I never read it. And then there was, like I said, a 12 or 15 year period where I wasn't reading Susan. So when I read Natural Morton Charmer, so when I, as I've been rereading some of these books, I downloaded some of them, I was like, oh, I've read this, like, Dream A Little Dream with Gabe. I was like, I haven't read this. And then I was like, oh, I've read this. But Natural Born Charmer, I was like, I've never read this before. This is wild. And it's kind of very heaven. Texas Y.

[Sarah McLean]

We've talked about Susan before. Many, many, many, many times. Like, we. We have talked to Susan. Susan is really, for what it's worth, everybody. The conversation that we had with Susan Elizabeth Phillips was the conversation that began our interest in the trailblazer conversations. Because Susan sort of popped up into our audio and was like, I invented the sports romance.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And we were like, whoa.

[Sarah McLean]

And then it was sort of like, oh, my God, you did. And then we had a moment where we were like, wait a second. Like, this is. This is the conversation that we should be having with everybody. So one of the things that we've often had, one of the conversations that Jen, that we. Jen and I have often had, is that we did a trailblazer conversation with Susan. But it wasn't really a trailblazer conversation. We didn't ask some of the questions that we probably should have asked. Like, and I often think, like, we need to go back and like, do an episode with Susan. So everybody, we will link here to the conversation that we had with Susan.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Maybe Eric can drop it into the feed the following weekend. Like this comes out. Oh, yeah, maybe Wednesday, but maybe Saturday.

[Sarah McLean]

Can be a drop.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

And then everybody can listen to that. But also, like, know that it is on our list. Like, essentially redo that episode now that we know what a trailblazer episode should look like. Because there is no question that we are, we are dealing with a trailblazer here. Like Susan. And she says, you know, she says she invented the sports romance, which she did, but she also really is the inventor along with Jenny Cruzy. I think of the, the like the rom com kind of in some ways contemporary. I don't know. I hate the term rom com. I'm on the record for saying that I hate the term rom com. I don't actually think that it's suits books the way it suits film. And I think that this is a good example of why this particular book, you know, I texted you yesterday while I was reading and I was like, reading this really, like, distills for me why rom com doesn't work for me as a. As a descriptor of a. Of a text. And I think that it's like a misfire when a writer sits there down and says, I'm going to aim for a rom com. Because I actually don't think, I don't even think Susan is really writing a rom com. But I think like, Susan and Jenny Cruzy are both writing comedic romances or like they have a particular comedic voice that is, I mean, one might argue, kind of unmatched. Like.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. I feel like the third person I kind of think of when you say that is maybe Rachel Gibson.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah, I mean, Rachel's a really interesting thing because also Rachel sort of.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I mean, I haven't read one of.

[Sarah McLean]

Her books ever really Hockey.

[Jennifer Prokop]

But yeah. Don't you feel like they had a similar vibe? Maybe it was like following Elizabeth, Susan's lead. Right.

[Sarah McLean]

I think there's no. So Rachel came after. Yeah, right. And I think what Susan did for football, Rachel. I mean, listen, everybody out there who's like, I love a hockey romance, like Rachel Gibson, you can thank Rachel Gibson for hockey romance. Like she was doing that long before everybody else. She basically invented the hockey romance. So I think. And I think they were Fun.

[Jennifer Prokop]

They.

[Sarah McLean]

Those were also funny. Like, C. Jane Score, I think, was her first book. Or if it wasn't her first book, it was her first hockey book. And, like, it's great. It's very funny.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. So in the late 90s, I think there were, like, several people, and I'm sure there may be others who really sort of, like, created this space in the genre for this, like, comedic romance.

[Sarah McLean]

But I do think that what's interesting about the structure of this. Right. Of Natural Born Charmer and of all the others. Right. Like, every Susan book begins with a, like, tremendously funny, like, tee up. And I'm not just talking about, like, you know, there was a. You know, a beaver, a headless beaver walking down the side of the road. Right. Which is a great. I mean, like, the first line of this book is terrific. And it, like, dumps you into it. And it's naturally funny. It's funny that it's a beaver costume. It's funny, like, the whole situation with, like, her trying to get into his Aston Martin while, like, her tail is, like. It's classically slapsticky funny, which is very.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Hard to do in writing.

[Sarah McLean]

But, Jen, I think that if that scene had been deeper into the book, it wouldn't have hit.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I actually think that this is exactly what I wanted to say, which is the thing about this opening. It almost functions like a cold open.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Where Susan starts any book is not where that book is gonna end up.

[Sarah McLean]

No way.

[Jennifer Prokop]

You are never gonna see where it ends up.

[Sarah McLean]

You're never gonna predict it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

No. And one of the things that's very different about books now is they are very like, plug and play. Like, what you see is what you get. So if a book says, you know, if a book starts off with this scenario, the whole rest of the book is, like, in that town. And everyone making fun of Blue for being in the beaver costume. Right. And I feel like that is something that really struck me on the reading is how there is a real lost art. It feels like to. To the. To the complexity of the storytelling and the journey. The literal journey that these characters are on, and not just because it's a road trip. It is tonally, situationally, in every way different.

[Sarah McLean]

Agreed. And I'm going to say something that I think is really. I think I'm starting. I'm really noticing. I've been noticing for several years, and I know you have, too, and that is that we are losing plot.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

And I think we're losing plot in a lot of different ways. I've Talked about this on Banter Plus a lot. And I think I've probably said it on, like, the main pod as well. On the main. On main. But, like, once we started as a genre to think about trope as plot, we lost the plot both metaphorically and literally. Like, we are. The books largely do not have a plot. And what I mean by that is, as you're reading it, because I know most of the people listening to this podcast are readers. Is as you're reading some of these books, when you think to yourself, like, nothing is happening in this book. That's because literally there is no plot to this book. The book is all characters stuck in trope, right? So it's like two characters, you know, a grumpy and a sunshine in an only one bed situation. And you're like, okay, but why, but how?

[Jennifer Prokop]

But why?

[Sarah McLean]

What is the consequence of this? But. And so I think. But all of that is to say, and I know some of you out there are like, what the. Sarah. Like, I write plot. And I'm not talking. If you write plot, like, I'm not talking about you. One and two. I think that for me, as a reader who cut my teeth on Susan Elizabeth Phillips and others, right, I expect my romances to have plot. That said, we've talked a million times about how gener, like, romance moves in generations. Like, we. We're 10, 15 generations away from where I started as a romance reader, right? And so I think, listen, this is not to say that the books currently now that are successful, that don't have plots, aren't speaking to wide swaths of.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Readers or even that they're bad or wrong. They're just different.

[Sarah McLean]

It is like a new. Like, this is a new branch of the romance tree. This like your vibes. Yeah, that are vibes. And that is not what Susan is doing. Susan is telling a, like, big, expansive, contemporary story. And I think what we're both trying to say here is while Susan does it tremendously well and is like, no doubt one of the best in the business at this, she is not you. This expanse of storytelling and contemporary is not unique to her. Like many, many, many authors at this time were writing these big, expansive stories that had plots that, like, you start at A and you go through multiple places and you end up at Z.

[Jennifer Prokop]

This week's episode of Fated Mates is brought to you by Avon Books, publishers of the Boyfriend Project by Mason Deaver.

[Sarah McLean]

So Eli Francis is stuck. He has an assistant position at an online magazine, and all he really wants is to become a writer. He's definitely qualified for it, but he has a boss who, like, dangles promotions in front of him and is definitely never going to give them over. And to make it all worse, he is working alongside an ex who just makes work messy. Everything is messy. So Eli's roommates push him to date so that he can get over his ex and, like, really just, like, get himself organized. And they set him up with Peter park, who is tall and handsome and unbelievably awkward. And they have a terrible first date. This date is a complete disaster and further proof to Eli that, like, love is not for him. But when his boss overhears Eli recounting the awfulness that is this date, his boss suggests teaching Peter to be a better boyfriend through a series of, like, simulated dates. And then Eli can write an article about it and maybe get a leg up on his promotion. But Eli has, like, a completely new idea, which is, what if he goes on these simulated dates and pretends to write this article for his boss, but he is secretly interviewing Peter about growing up queer in the south and the sort of coming of age dating wise of a person who has lived that experience thinking, like, this will be a piece that really transcends, like, the work that I've been doing. Of course, the more time Eli spends with Peter, the closer they become. And the lines between these simulated dates and what's real begin to blur. And before long, Eli is going to have to face his greatest fears to become the writer he wants to be and secure the love he's always needed.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So if you are looking for a sweet angel and steamy queer romance with trans representation, then the Build a Boyfriend project is for you. It is available in print, ebook and audio. And if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Avon Books and Mason Deaver for sponsoring this week's episode. These are imperfect characters who are. I don't know. There's a lot in this book that, like, I was taken aback by. Right. Because you just wouldn't see them in books today. Some of it is like, they're like. Some of it's the way characters talk to each other or. Right. Some of it just seems maybe dated. Some of it is right about a kind of worldview that is very, like, kind of binary about gender or sexuality or whatever. Right. You know, there is. I can't even say it, like, this traveling caravan kind of bus thing on the property that is, I guess I will say it is referred to over and over again as a gypsy caravan. And so it's like one of the things I think I would say is like reading this we say all the time now, like, there's sort of a flattening of character. And there are ways in which this book allow, like, part of it is, like I said, dated, but allows the characters to actually be imperfect and talk to each other in ways that are harmful or stereotypical. Right? Like sort of assuming the worst about each other. And it was very interesting to sort of like be swimming around in a book where people were actually bad, bad to each other. There is a. There are things I literally read in this book where I was like, this couldn't happen in a book right now. And specifically about Riley, who is an 11 year old girl. And I think that that was also just like sort of interesting to me because when we like watch old episodes of Friends, which is kind of often like a touchstone, right? Like, it's. Here is a thing people still are very familiar with. There is fatphobia, there is homophobia, that all these things and people can kind of be like, okay, that's just of its time. And still maybe some people enjoy it or not. And I think for me, I just am like, you're gonna have to bring that same feeling with you kind of into this book. And some of it, listen, I was able to look past and forgive. And some of it I really was like, I don't like this at all. So I. But I did find myself kind of able to like, look past it or to like, feel my feelings about it. Because it was also very clear that, like, these were the characters. This had nothing to do with, like, me as a person, you know.

[Sarah McLean]

Okay, well, first of all, I want to, I. I just want to, like, I want to just note that the caravan that you're talking about is described in that way. But it is not. Like, this is not a slur. In fact, this caravan is like, yeah, one of the most magnificent set pieces in the, in the, the book. But I will say that I think that Susan, for her whole career, has been willing to write bad characters, right? Characters who are at their core in many ways irredeemable. And I think that is a rare find these days. Like, we struggle. And I say that as me, like, I struggle with that, right? Like, with it, with writing, like a truly bad character. Because I often think, like, well, I mean, well, whatever, it doesn't matter why I struggle with it. But I think like, a lot of writers do struggle with it. A lot of romance Writers struggle with it because of this kind of Jane and Krentzian feel of, like, if we're driving characters to be their best selves, like, is there a redemption possible for everyone in some way? So I think. But I agree with you. Like, I think a hallmark of Susan's books is she'll put racism on the page and it is unabashed, or she'll put, you know, homophobia on the page and it is unabashed.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And I mean, honestly, it. So I'm just gonna say that, like, there's part of it. Maybe we'll talk about. With Riley, I actually had sort of a harder time with, like, the fat phobia around a small girl, like an 11 year old, than probably almost anything else, because it was just. But then again, I was like, you know, we live in a time now where people are putting their kids on Ozempic, so the idea that adults have, like, very strong opinions and will shame kids about being right sort of fat is something I was like, this makes me feel real gross. But also, it's not like that's gone from society. At least here's a book where I get to, like, engage with that in whatever way. Right. Whether to think that it is well done or not. At least it is, like, on the page as being something our society really does, in fact, do to kids. Right. So, like, not only is there plot, but there is, like, a deeply, like, really interesting character work that's being done for everyone. And I think the other thing is this is a book with a lot of really strongly developed secondary characters.

[Sarah McLean]

Oh, so many.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It's like, it's.

[Sarah McLean]

It almost. It, like, edges up on, like, too much. I don't think it is, but it's interesting because I do think that if this book was published in 2025, somebody would have said, should we put it in hardcover?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well, I think it probably was originally in hardcover based on my memory of buying. Match me if you can, but okay.

[Sarah McLean]

Oh, really?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. I think there was a point at which Susan went to hardcover. I don't know. We could put that in show notes.

[Sarah McLean]

What I mean by that is, I mean, somebody at HarperCollins or wherever would be like, oh, this is a book that, like, transcends. Right. It's a. It's an Abby Jimenez book. It's a, you know, Emily Henry book where, like, the pill is almost in the peanut butter here on the romance. Except it is a really strong romance.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Okay, so now that we've sort of kind of done those disclaimers, let's Talk about it also.

[Sarah McLean]

It's long P. S. Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So Blue Bailey is out on the side of the road, Beaver costume when Dean Robillard, I don't know, a vagabond NFL quarterback from the Chicago Stars, drives by in his Aston Martin Vanquish and for shits and giggles, like, basically stops to help her. And the thing that we understand very quickly is that Dean is tremendously bored and devastated. Dean is just. Because he has everything he wants and nothing he wants. Right. And it's also really interesting because unlike kind of previous Chicago Stars books where the Chicago Stars of it all is very present, this is. Dean is almost entirely, I don't know, like, removed in some ways from, like, this, right? It's the season. He's just. There's very little football. And what happens is, is he picks her up in the car, takes her, you know, she has to return the Beaver costume, kind of finds out, like, what it's all about. And it turns out that Blue is in real financial dire straits because she has recently sort of moved from Seattle to Colorado to maybe be with this guy who has, like, done her dirty and new girlfriend. So she doesn't have a place to live anymore. But even worse is that her life savings and all of the money from her checking account has been emptied out of her bank accounts by her mother, who is a sort of like, I don't know, like a renegade. Not a nun, but definitely likes hanging out with them. Has been all over the world, essentially, like, white, savioring it up with people in order to save them. And she's taken the money out of Blue's bank account because there's some girls in a prison and she's gonna use this money to free them. And we learn. And so Blue and Dean essentially end up on this road trip. He is heading towards eastern Tennessee where he has a home that is being renovated. And the woman in charge of the renovation kind of won't answer his emails. And he's, as I said, very bored. So they're gonna drive out there and she, like, kind of for reasons. He takes her along with him mainly.

[Sarah McLean]

Because she's like, I gotta go to Nashville.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

And he's like, no. And she's like, just drive and look pretty.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. He's like, okay, I guess.

[Sarah McLean]

Romance reasons.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And when they get to the farm, they re. He realizes that the woman who has been renovating his house is actually his long, like, essentially his. His estranged mother, April. And she is there basically, like, I fucked up my entire relationship with my kid. She was A groupie. His father is a rock star. She was Jack Patriot. Jack Patriot. I can't even. He thought it was Bruce Springsteen for a long time, which is such a great little detail. And he and she, like, he spent his. Essentially grew up in boarding schools, and she's finally clean, but, you know, she was addicted to drugs and alcohol throughout his entire childhood until he was 20. And she essentially has snuck into this town and given everybody a false identity because what she wants to do is, like, make a home for him, and then she's gonna just leave, and he'll never have known it was her until he and Blue show up at the door. Bam.

[Sarah McLean]

Mm.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And eventually Jack Patriot shows up. And the reason he shows up is because Dean's half sister Jack has a daughter who's 11, Riley, from another marriage. He and April were never married. And Riley, Riley's mother, has just died. Jack is in the wind. Pause.

[Sarah McLean]

Like, while you're doing this, I just want to say, like, also, like, not us. Talk about taking the finger again and again and again. Like, Susan's, like, their trauma. There go. This is terrible. Everybody's going to experience some kind of, like, terrible past. I mean, like, the description of blues past and, like, the way she was passed around by her, like, like, mother's friends. Which happens, by the way. Everybody. I mean, this is a master class in. In building a character's trauma without making their trauma their entire identity. Because Blues Trauma, which is same with Dean. I mean, Dean, too, but, like, the. The. I mean, the actual writing.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, yes.

[Sarah McLean]

The way Susan delivers Blues Trauma is over the course of two pages. And, like, literally, you guys. And it's like she's passed from one person to another person to another person to another person.

[Jennifer Prokop]

The.

[Sarah McLean]

The writing of that. The, like, literal sentence structure of the description is technically perfect. Like, it is an. It is designed to deliver the most powerful punch to the reader. And by the end of it, you feel like you have been through war with this character who, like, basically you haven't really gotten to know at all and who is, in classic Susan Elizabeth Phillips fashion, somewhat unlikable at the beginning of this book. Like, there is an edge to Blue where you're like, am I gonna like this person? And, of course, like, because that's Susan's core story is, am I gonna like this heroine? I mean, and. And so. But what's really interesting is, like, every.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It.

[Sarah McLean]

It puts. I mean, 95% of romance novelists to shame, how quickly and efficiently and powerfully she. She delivers you sympathy and understanding of where blue has come from. This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Scarlet Xavier, author of Irish Fire and Forbidden Love.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So in this one we have Rory. He is a businessman who is in Galway and he is there to buy, buy, like, sort of do some business on the corporate side. And he runs into and meets Maeve Quinn. She is the owner of a small, like, local bar. And they have some business between them because he has, like, contracts, numbers, exit strategies, and his job is to essentially, like, put her bar on the market. And so the thing is, though, is once he sees her, this feels this insane connection to her, to the place. And, you know, every time she, like, leans over the bar, everything about her just draw. He is just drawn to everything about her. So with every passing day, he's really torn between the man he has always been and the one Maeve inspires him to be. What is going to happen? He's supposed to walk away, but maybe he will not be able to.

[Sarah McLean]

Well, if you love a book with forced proximity, enemies to lovers, and a small town, local business versus big corporations, this book just might be for you. This is part of Scarlet's Celtics Celtic Men series where she's intending to write Scottish, English and Welsh stories, all with different characters and all with Great Britain as the backdrop. So if you're interested in getting this book, you can do that right now in print, ebook, or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited, or if your podcasting app supports it, just click on the chapter title and we'll take you to buy the book. Thanks so much to Scarlet Xavier for sponsoring this week's episode.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Okay, so I know we haven't talked about like, Dean and Blue much at all, but. But as a foil to that, we get Riley, who is the child of literal rock and roll royalty and her mother is a country star. And so this is a child who literally is growing up. So, you know, wealthy. Wealthy.

[Sarah McLean]

Right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Wealthy, privileged on paper.

[Sarah McLean]

Right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

She has everything. And the way that she gets herself to the farm is probably one of the most harrowing things I have read in romance, which is this 11 year old girl essentially blackmails the 16 year old who comes and does like, gardening work at the estate she lives on to like drive her out to the farm in the middle of the night from MapQuest directions she has printed out. And at some point he like, essentially dumps her out of the car and she has to like, walk in the dark through the fields right for the last mile. And the thing I found myself really thinking is you could not imperil a child in a romance novel like this, in a book today. I just don't think it could be done. Literally, I do not think it could be done. And I think it's very interesting because we see the fact that, like, the. The reason you put Riley's trauma on Paige, but not Blue's is Blue has already dealt with it and managed it and has created her strategies. Right. That are gonna have to.

[Sarah McLean]

Such as it is.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right. That have to be broken down through falling in love. Yeah. But Riley's trauma, which we see on Paige, is going to instead get fixed right away by all of a sudden being with people who are going to figure out a way to love her and take care of her, who won't.

[Sarah McLean]

Leave her with the next person.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Exactly. And so you can make Riley's trauma more visceral, more. Right. It's not that Blues isn't. Blues is heartbreaking. Riley's is, like, actually actively terrifying. You're like, what the. Is about to happen to this kid?

[Sarah McLean]

You can't fix Blue's past, but you can fix Riley's present. It's fearless. It's fearlessness in the writing. And, like, what I will say is that this is deep into Susan Elizabeth Phillips's career. Right. This is, I don't know, 20 years into her career, Right. So Susan Elizabeth Phillips at this point does not have doubt that her career will sustain itself. Right? So she is taking.

[Jennifer Prokop]

She's in her imperial position, in her imperial period.

[Sarah McLean]

She's in her imperial period, which we haven't really talked about in a long time with authors. But, like, she is in the sense that, like, here is a time when, like, she has an editor who is. Who has given her, like, a blank check and said, you are able to write whatever. Whatever you want. That said, the bones of this book are exactly the same as the bones of her early books. Like, Susan is a writer who has been writing Fearless for 20 years at this point. And so I think. And I think there is always a sense with her that, like, I mean, whenever I read one of her books, and especially now when I look back, when I read them through the lens of, like, time, I'm always impressed by, like, just the sense of, like, I can see Susan at the fork in the road. And always, like, as we talk about, as, you know, I talk about when I talk about conflict, like, as I talk about when I like, plot books with friends, it's like, every time you see the fork in the road, like, she chooses a Sophie Jordan path. The like, do the Thing that's the scariest, because that's the right answer. And I think this is me, like, speaking from 2025 authoring. I think fearlessness is the thing that we lack the most of in 2025 as a genre. I, I, I rarely see it. And I think it is because we are afraid of the criticism being like, immediately in our face.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, yeah, like, there's no maybe. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Sarah McLean]

You know, there's a lot of talk right now on, in general about like, reviewing and whatever. And I think reviewing is such an essential. Reviews are such an essential piece to like, the, the good book ecosystem. Right. A healthy publishing ecosystem requires us as writers to like, be authentically, truthfully reviewed. Right. And I think we are in this position, we are in this, this place where like, that, that pathway is challenging for a lot of writers. And I think we are in a place where like, a lot of, where there is a difference between like, Goodreads and like Instagram reviews and like true authentic reviewing. Like, that is skilled and trained. Right. And I think we're, we have much less of the latter and much more of the former. And, and I think it's just getting very difficult. It's getting very murky, the waters for writers. And I think there is a fear of like, having to come face to face with like, the consequences of you be writing fearlessly, which is often everybody taking the fearless route is going to alienate some number of readers.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like, so to me, fearlessness and romance is like, like the most fearless books are the ones that are like, really okay with showing people as being emotionally vulnerable and people being flawed. And I think that we have moved away from that and are moving more to like, sort of fearlessness as being like, I'm going to put something shocking on the page, right? I mean, like the, like. And that's not fearlessness, that's just shock value. Right? Yeah, Right.

[Sarah McLean]

That's not what I mean.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, no, of course not. Of course not. Right. But it's so, it's like, I also think like, in, and listen in other genres or in other mediums, what fearlessness might look like is different. Does that make sense?

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah, I think it really does. And I think that what you're getting at here is again, it goes back to Susan's like, immense skill, right? Because when Susan delivers, say, Riley's trauma, right, viscerally on the page, like, like, you have to stare it down. She does it knowing, or at least having faith in her skill enough that she can thread the needle and solve it and like, and, like, abate it as quickly or through the course of the book. Right, right. And I think, like, you have to be willing to do the work to abate that trauma through the course of the book in order for the book to hit.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, right, right. I think that's right. So Dean and, and Blue, when we, we understand very quickly that they're both of their, like, wounds, Right. To use sort of the, like, romancing the beat language have to do with like, being failed by their parents, but in different ways. Okay. So you have people that have a wound caused by the same, like, people, but the wound itself is very different.

[Sarah McLean]

So.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right. Dean is wildly successful and hugely independent. And the reason he. That is because. Right. He essentially, you know, was Harm. Was touched by the gods. And so he's starting quarterback and he's got, right, all this money. And he also was able to like, really, like, sort of, you know, he had boarding schools and ways in which, like, the. Even though his parents neglected him, his dad was like a rock superstar and could like, financially give him the kind of cushion that Blue never got. So Blue was neglected. Sort of emotionally neglected, but also sort of internalized it as like, well, I love to wander. I love. You know what I mean? I've got these, like, wandering feet and I'm gonna be all around and everywhere. And that's what I like. As opposed to realizing that, like, she was uprooted so often, she has no idea how to root herself as a romance then.

[Sarah McLean]

And they are an inferno.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. She understands really quickly that, like, he's just used to everyone kissing his ass all the time. And the way that she is going to be different is by just like needling him.

[Sarah McLean]

I mean, that begins from the jump.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. And he's like, no one ever treats me like this.

[Sarah McLean]

I'm interested when she draws his portrait.

[Jennifer Prokop]

One of the best. God, what a moment.

[Sarah McLean]

Okay, so this is early, early in the book, everybody. And so Blue has no money. And it's confusing for a little while.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like, why?

[Sarah McLean]

Like, it's like she's like wearing this beaver costume because she had to, like, take a day job, like a 24 hour gig, like trying to drive people to a lumber yard. That's called like, Bob's Beavers.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Susan, you're mine.

[Sarah McLean]

It's really perfect. Right?

[Jennifer Prokop]

So funny.

[Sarah McLean]

So anyway, so when they meet, like, she has no money and then it's like she and it and he immediately clocks it. And he, you know, Dean's whole. Dean's generosity. You could write an essay, you could write a Paper on Dean's generosity and, like, Dean's relationship with generosity, like, as currency in a lot of, like, Dean. Dean thinks of his. Himself. Himself as being, like, immensely generous, but, like, it's currency, right? Like, it's not. Everything is. Is a transaction with him. And so he. So whatever. Blue needs money. She needs a ride to Nashville. Like, she kind of clocks, like, this guy, has the cash, and so she knows exactly who he is, by the way, but, like, pretends like she doesn't, which is terrific. And she gets in the car and then they go, you know, wherever. And he offers and she, like, you know, he pays for dinner or pays. He. I forget what he pays for, but he pays for something. And she's like, well, you know, let me pay. Let me give you money.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right?

[Sarah McLean]

But she doesn't really have any money. And he's like. He's like, no, you. You could pay me with a portrait. Like, you're an artist. You can pay with a bright.

[Jennifer Prokop]

That's how she makes money a lot of the time. She, like, does portraits. She's like, an artist. People's kids and dogs and stuff. Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

And so she goes away. So, like, they have their, like, first night. He comes on to her in, like, a pretty sleazy way. Like, he's basically like, I want to fuck this lady. And so he's like, hey, what about, you know, you gotta. You get to take a look.

[Jennifer Prokop]

He's in, like, a robe or a towel or whatever.

[Sarah McLean]

I envision it like that. That Playgirl centerfold with, like, Burt Reynolds, like, that vibe. And then she's like, no. And so she goes away and she's. She draws overnight a portrait of him. Well, she actually draws two portraits of him, but she draws a portrait of him. And in the morning they meet for breakfast and she gives it to him. She's like, payment. You know, this is your payment. And she has drawn a portrait of him if he was just slightly, like, instead of being born with, like, perfect bone structure. And, like, you know, his eyes are.

[Jennifer Prokop]

A little too close.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah. His nose is a little too wide. Like, he's got a receding. A little bit of a receding hair line. Like, he looks like a normal person and he's horrified by it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well, first he thinks she's just a bad artist, Right. First she's kind of like. I guess she's not very good at this.

[Sarah McLean]

She gives him the second one, which is a perfect rendition of him being, like, sleazy Burt Reynolds guy, like, laying across a Shay's long.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right. And what she says to him is like, fascinating how. How close you came.

[Sarah McLean]

Hang on. I. I highlighted the line because, of course I did.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Because I was like, this is because it's brilliant.

[Sarah McLean]

Says Dean was seldom at a loss for words, but the image she'd drawn left him speechless. And she takes a bite of her donut and says, fascinating, isn't it? How easily it all could have gone wrong for you. Because this man gets everything he wants. Like, at one point, very quickly after this, sep. Like a page or two after this, he thinks to himself, because you're in his pov, he thinks to himself, like, he. He wasn't good at seducing women because women just threw themselves at him. Like, he didn't need to work it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

He had to get better at that. You know what's also, though, fascinating about this moment? So it's this amazing moment where she, like, then gives him right, where instead of being insulted, he really does think to himself.

[Sarah McLean]

He internalizes it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

He does. I really learned something from this. I. I Right?

[Sarah McLean]

He's like, I'm not gonna hang it over the mantle, but it is food for thought.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So I have a. I have a friend who pointed out once, and maybe I've talked about this is like, okay, when you talk about being a predator or being prey, the difference is whether or not you have a lot of eyes or you have good hearing, right? So, like, if you're a predator, what you have is, like, eyesight, right? Like, you can see everything. You can, like, real, right? Because you are always on the hunt. And this is how you. This is, like, the work you do. And if you were prey, that what you really develop is, like, good hearing. And the thing about Dean is Dean's like, I'm a quarterback. I have great sight. You know what I mean? And this moment, you really see that someone has shown him something in a way that he has never been able to see before. No one's even ever tried to show it to him before.

[Sarah McLean]

Because Dean is prey.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Because to blue, right. In some ways.

[Sarah McLean]

And so a lot of people, right?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, Right? Yeah. He's rich, he's handsome. He's like, if I hook myself up to him, he will. And he is so good at, like, sort of, like, sloughing those people off.

[Sarah McLean]

It's interesting, right? He's very good at sloughing them off. But also, there is a but they don't even know. Yeah. There's a sense with Dean also that, like, the difference between adoration and love, right? Like, he is so aware of, like, what he did not have from his youth, though he wouldn't, you know, he would never admit that it bothered him and then. But the adoration that he has surrounded himself with is, you know, him filling the void in a lot of ways, which is. Listen, if you've read other books by Susan, you know that this isn't. This is a thing she comes back to a lot with heroes. Call Me Irresistible, I think is the one where, like, he's like the greatest lover ever in the history of lovers.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, yeah, Ted Bodie.

[Sarah McLean]

She's like, this was not very good mid.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And he just, like, unravels himself.

[Sarah McLean]

This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Claire Trella Hill, author of Black and Deep Desires.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Okay, so this is a really fun idea. It's essentially a YA Gothic paranormal. And our heroine is Ophelia Sarah. What she wants to know is, is the vampire in the cellar a man she can save or a monster out for her blood? And.

[Sarah McLean]

But what if he's both? Jen, what if he's both?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well, either way, Ophelia's father has been up to his regular shenanigans. He's always been unfeeling. She learned to keep her pets away from him or they'd disappear into the laboratory. And when he unexpectedly returns to their isolated Yorkshire estate with a mysterious box, Ophelia's suspicions are aroused. But nothing could prepare her for what she actually finds, which is a vampire named Salem, caged in silver and hungry in the cellar. And someone has betrayed knowledge of vampire existence to humans. And he. Before he can figure out who has done this, he has to essentially escape the diabolical experiments that are essentially trying to figure out what makes him immortal. Can he afford to trust this frustratingly intriguing girl who says she wants to help and smells like orange blossoms? Or. And meanwhile she is like, how can I, you know, I have to save him. He says he has no soul, but he's being tortured. So this is a real problem for both of them. Daddy, I love him. For anyone who's ever longed to run across a dark, windswept moor in a nightgown, this is the book for you.

[Sarah McLean]

Well, if you also want to do that, then you should read Black and Deep Desires, which is available right now in print or in ebook if your podcasting app supports it. You can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks so much, Claire Trell Hill, for sponsoring this week's episode.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Again. Now they're on a farm in East Nashville, and for again, like, sort of romance reasons. April is essentially like, you think you can toss me out of here, but nothing is going to get done in this town, on this farm, right? Like, I have been managing all the construction and you think you can just like, walk in and take over and you can't. So at least give me a week to kind of wrap it all up. And of course he's like, furious because man's and feelings and how dare my mother show up here and do this? And she's no good. And meanwhile, Blue is like. She seems kind of nice. What's going on? And Blue is just like, okay, if I can just like, sort of regroup here long enough to essentially, like. I mean, she's like, I'll cook for Dean. I'll be his housekeeper essentially long enough to get me to some nearby town where I can like, set up shop and like, start over again with my portrait painting. Enough to like, get me going, like. And so here they now all are in the farm. And, you know, there's no doors and there's no lights in any of the rooms. And there is, right. All of a sudden it's just like, the intensity of this is really terrific. And it's essentially now like, they're in this little pocket universe, the pocket of East Tennessee. And the nearby town is called Garrison. It's owned by this local old mean woman, Nita. Nita Garrison. And Riley shows up, right? And you know, and the thing that's really interesting is Blue and April both understand immediately that Riley does not have any expectations that her father will come and save her. And she is hanging everything on the idea that if she can can only make Dean accept her, that her brother will be able to be the one to take care of her.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah, she's looking for a home.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, she's. They all are, but she is really looking for home. And Dean is like, whoa. And they are kind of doing everything they can to protect. Right? To protect. Kind of like run interference almost between Riley's. His desperate need to find a home and a family and like, their realization that it's not. It can't be Dean. It's not his responsibility. He's never met this child. He doesn't know his own father. You know what I mean? There's just like, no way for that to happen. And so Riley and Blue go into town for lunch. They run into Nita Garrison, who is really mean. Blue tells her off and then gets arrested and thrown in jail. Right? Perfect. And Nita essentially makes it so that no one else is going to Work on the farm. And so, again, it just is like, entrenching them even further into the world of this town. Now no one can really get out because where are they going to go? The farm's not ready. Right. Dean and April have to stay and get the farm ready, and Blue hasn't anywhere to go. And then there's Riley. And then who shows? Shows up. Jack Patriot. And now. And you know what it feels like if you've ever seen that old movie Clue, where, like, the characters trickle in one at a time, and you don't really realize everyone's missing.

[Sarah McLean]

It's all coming together and how it's all.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And then all of a sudden, Jack Patriot arrives. And then you realize, oh, of course. And now the five players who are going to play out this story are on the stage. Right. And it's brilliant. Blue. One of my favorite things about Blue. I'm sorry, is she had had a lifelong crush on Jack Patriot.

[Sarah McLean]

I know.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And she can't talk to him. She can't look at him. Every time he walks into the room, she, like, trips on something. And at one point, she's like, literally at this point, like, falling in love with Dean is like, I imagined that I would, like, lose my virginity to this man, and it's his father.

[Sarah McLean]

It's. You know, it's perfect because I think, you know, talk about a heroine who. And again, she's. So. If you are a Susan Elizabeth Phillips reader, she is such a familiar heroine. Like, Blue is. Susan Wright's a woman. Right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

A real broad. Yeah. That's great.

[Sarah McLean]

And I think, like. Like, there is. She's, like. She's touchy. She's, like, edgy. She has teeth. Like, she is so aware of, like, her space, like, herself and the need to take up space. And then. And so when you first meet these heroines, they are so, like, abrasive almost.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

Like harsh.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah McLean]

And then, like, as five. This book is 500 pages long, and.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like, I don't even think I realized.

[Sarah McLean]

It as it unpeels itself, like, you start to really understand, like, what makes a woman this way, what makes a person this way. And I. I mean, I just love that. I love the way she gives you a Runway on this book to, like, really explore all of these characters. There is, like, it is just such a big, expansive story. I want to talk about a hallmark of Susan Elizabeth Phillips's books, which is the secondary love story, because I think that often we say, like, for a long time before we could get to. And I think we talked about this in our seasoned romance episode.

[Jennifer Prokop]

But.

[Sarah McLean]

I think for a long time, you didn't see characters falling in love who were older. And the only place that I can remember seeing them sort of regularly falling in love is in Susan's books. And so here she has, as always, almost always they are a secondary. It is a secondary romance that is a second chance romance. And in this one, April and Jack, like, get back together. And it's interesting because Jack is not a likable person. Like, he's a. He's like. Like, I mean, charismatic, sure. But, like, this is a man who has up two families and countless other things, you know, by virtue of just being like a rock star.

[Jennifer Prokop]

When Dean was born, Jack was 20. Jack and April were in their early 20s. He. Jack was 23, and April was.

[Sarah McLean]

April was Jack's muse.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, very. Like, it kind of made me want to watch Almost Famous, which is a movie, actually. It's really funny. I was thinking, like, that movie came out before this and I. Maybe 2,000 and anyway, and it's, like, really interesting because, like, right. She was like, I was a groupie for 20 years, and he was like, I was just getting hitting it big. And he was also using, Right. Alcohol and drugs. And both of them have, like, cleaned themselves up and. But it's really interesting that they are like, both of them have kind of made their peace with who they were then, but not with each other, you know?

[Sarah McLean]

Yes.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah McLean]

I also think, again, strategically, she's just good at the job because. So, again, right. Like, this is a man in other. In the hands of other authors. Somebody speaking as somebody who's written a lot of terrible fathers. Right. Like, you write a terrible father on the page and they are a character trait for a hero.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah McLean]

Like, they're like, here. Here is the truth about his relationship with his father.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

And if you meet them, they're terrible. And if you like, whatever. It's all the things. Right. In this case, you have a terrible father who's been terrible to two children. Right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

In different ways.

[Sarah McLean]

In different ways. But still, like. Like, not a loving. Like, not that. Like, he is not a portrait of a good dad. Right. And it's interesting because we talk so much about pov, but Susan deploys POV really strategically here because there is a scene where Riley sings and we are in Jack's point of view. And this is before we see him fall. Right. It's before.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It's kind of all happening at the same time. I mean, is this what he sees her the first time or when he sees her at Nita's birthday party.

[Sarah McLean]

Party. It's when she sings his. His song. The song. It's the. It's the birthday party. You know, I think there is. I think we. She deploys Jack's POV. She deploys April's POV also. And I think using. Structurally, using these additional POVs in this. In this book is so important because, you know, for lots of reasons, like. Right. Everybody thinks that, you know, the villain of the play has always. Always thinks that he's a hero or she's a hero. And I also think that it gives us an opportunity. She shortcuts by putting their characters. Their characters on the page and giving them their pov. What Susan is doing here is she's establishing for the reader right away, like, these are not bad people. These are people who like.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like, you should be interested in just like everybody else.

[Sarah McLean]

And I think this is another reason why I think, like, this book, it becomes more exp. This book is expansive in. And it might be one of her most expansive books, I would say that's the.

[Jennifer Prokop]

In this case, like, the. The secondary romance isn't just there to sort of, like, show us. Like, it's. It's.

[Sarah McLean]

So to push the. It.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It.

[Sarah McLean]

It's not there for the primary romance, which is.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. It's there for its own piece of it. Yeah. It is also. I mean, it is so a big part of the, like, happily ever after, which is like, these people becoming whole, not just in their family. Yes, in their family. I think that's the world this book is about.

[Sarah McLean]

Happily ever after for their world.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Yeah. I think the thing. The. The thing about Jack that's really interesting is so. Yeah, like, his approach to parenting has essentially been like, my job is the money. When Dean was born, it was all through the lawyers. Like, he and April essentially never saw each other after she said I was pregnant. Right. He. The lawyers. And. And he even says that for many years, the lawyer was the parent for both of them. Right.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Dean, you know, April was drunk or high or Jack was. Or on tour or whatever, and it was the lawyer who made the things happen. And. But because Marley, which is Riley's mom, is. Has died, and because Riley has run away, like. Right. April calls Jack's people. She knows how to get to them. And he. And Jack himself shows up, and it's kind of like. It's clear. He's, like, gonna pick her up, put her in boarding school somewhere, and just go back to doing what he's doing. And Because Riley has someone there to support her. Like, right. He ends up staying, essentially agreeing that they can stay for Tom two weeks or like a week or something.

[Sarah McLean]

Romance reasons, of course.

[Jennifer Prokop]

The thing that's amazing is like, Jack is like. Starts doing stuff around the house. His dad was a carpenter, so he's like, well, this wall needs to be painted. This porch needs to be built. I might as well do stuff. And the thing that then is really interesting is Riley. He sort of still up with, like. He leaves her alone in the house one night and he, you know, and she's terrified and like. Like sitting on the. You know, the stairs with the butcher's knife and. Right. There's all these ways that he still has, like, no idea. And when he come. And it is through music that he, like, connects with her because he hears her say that she wants to take guitar lessons. And he is like, you do what? Wait, like you don't have your own guitar? And it's one of another. Really. One of my favorite scenes in this book is he essentially is like, well, I'll give you my old, old guitar name. I don't know what kind of is. Whatever.

[Sarah McLean]

Gibson.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Whatever.

[Sarah McLean]

It's not a Gibson, but whatever.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And then he's kind of like. And it's really interesting. You're in his point of view where he's like, wait, he recorded one of his biggest songs on that. What was he thinking? He, like, kind of regrets it. Like, he, at this point, you're like, this thinks a guitar is more important than his daughter. And then he. She's so excited about it. Like, all of a sudden he just.

[Sarah McLean]

He feels that joy again.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It is the scene where he goes from being. And it's through music where he goes from being rock star to being her father. And part of it is he realizes, like, he's like, I cannot fucking believe that, like, this child of two musicians doesn't have her own guitar. And it is really hammered home. She doesn't even realize what she's doing to him. Which is my favorite, where she says, like, you know. And he's kind of like, oh, that's going pretty well. And she's like, well, I've been practicing. And he's like, wait, I thought you said you didn't have a guitar. And she's like, oh, I made myself one out of cardboard. He has to, like, walk out of the room. And it's like the failure of parenting is so heavy upon him in this moment that then the scenes later when he hears her sing and it's his Song. And he realizes, like, I could. Could fuck everything up again, right, by not handling this right. She has this amazing singing voice, and she didn't want any of her parents to hear it because she knew that they would just turn her, like, turn her into a trophy for them. Yeah, Right? It's perfect. It is a perfect arc. And the other way that I think Jack being there is really perfect is like a spoiler. There's a pregnancy alert, a pregnancy scare for Blue. It's the end of the book. And we're in her point of view when they're, like, waiting for the three minutes to pass.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah, well, the person who has the most to lose.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right? Perfect. And you think, like, that's just gonna be it. Okay. It didn't happen. Fine. And it kind of is played for that way. Like, whew. They're both relieved. And it's not until the next scene that you realize actually it was Dean who learned something in that moment again. Right? Because he goes to his father instantly, and you're kind of like, wow, that's weird. And he says, in those three moments, you know what I found myself thinking about? What lawyer? How the lawyer could handle getting blue health insurance and how I would set up trusts. And Dean realizes, like, maybe he's a lot more like his father than he thought. Or maybe parenting when you are a. A celebrity is a lot more difficult than he was willing to admit. This week's episode of Fated Mates is brought to you by Avon Books, publishers of. Last night was fun by Holly Michelle.

[Sarah McLean]

So Emmy Jamison lives by three rules. No dating, no sharing personal news at work, and baseball. Above everything, she is the only female data analyst for a professional baseball team. And. And she has spent her entire career having to prove herself, especially when she has put up for a senior analyst position against her arrogant, infuriating coworker, Gabe Olsen. Yes, he's handsome. Yes, he's smart. Yes, he played baseball in college. But. So. But Emmy is gorgeous. Emmy is smart. Emmy knows about baseball, and she refuses to lose to him at work. There will be no distractions this summer. And then she receives a text from an unknown number with a simple message. Last night was fun. And when she strikes up a conversation with this mystery texter, they realize that he was given a fake phone number after a bad date that just so happened to be Emmys. Jen, who do you think this mystery texter turns out to be?

[Jennifer Prokop]

I betcha it's Gabe.

[Sarah McLean]

Listen, they have an instant connection. Oh, my God. This is like my pure king. I smashed order on this, they have an instant connection. And then she finds herself falling for him. And then she invites him to her sister's destination wedding. And when the mystery man shows up and turns out to be Gabe.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, boy.

[Sarah McLean]

Oh, boy. Let's just say things are going to hit the fan.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I think things other than baseballs will be smashed in this book, and that's what I like about it. So if you would like to check out Last Night Was Fun, it is available in print, ebook, and audio. And if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Avon Books and Holly Michelle for sponsoring this week's episode.

[Sarah McLean]

It's a really complex book, and it is. I mean, you've just reread a ton of her books.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

And so. And I have not. Like, I, I, I have read all of Susan's books, but I have not done the reread that you and Adriana and Kate have been doing over the last few months. Is it, Is it the, like, the imperial period?

[Jennifer Prokop]

I think so. Well, it's interesting maybe to think about it in concert with Heaven Texas, which is another book I really loved, which was 15 years earlier, probably. I don't know what year Heaven Texas was out. Let me see if I have this open.

[Sarah McLean]

Is that the first one?

[Jennifer Prokop]

No, Heaven Texas was the second one in that series, and it was 1995, so this is 12 years later. And in a weird way, there's, like, a lot of similarities, right? Like, he's the Chicago Stars football player, but he's, like, not really on page. They're in a little, small town.

[Sarah McLean]

What I will say is Susan often pulls her, like, for all they are sports romances, like, she takes them out of sport. You know, the first one. No, that. The first one is what? Lady? Be good. Good.

[Jennifer Prokop]

No, no, the first one is. Right.

[Sarah McLean]

It had to be you. Is like, about, like a sports team. So they have to be in the sport.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right?

[Sarah McLean]

Right. But I think many. I mean, like, look at nobody's baby. But mine is, like, off in the hills of Tennessee too.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right, Right.

[Sarah McLean]

So, yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I mean, but like, okay, so, yeah, then they go.

[Sarah McLean]

You were talking about.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, yeah. So, you know, like. Right. He picks her up on the side of the road, like, almost like, literally. Right. Like they go to some small town. He is a little bit separated from the team, who appears again at the end to make her realize, like, his positionality to her is different once the team is around, then at the end. Right. Like, she's Gonna make her escape from the. And instead like jail plays a part. Like there's a lot of those set pieces are really the same. But the way that it is all structured is. And listen, I love Heaven Texas. But the complexity with which the ending in particular plays out is really interesting because in Heaven Texas it's like Bobby Tom is just kind of a fuck up and he has to spend the night in jail and he figures it all out and fixes everything the next day. Blue at the end of this one is the one who they have like a really. Where he begs her to stay. He begs her to stay and she's kind of like, no, I gotta go. And she is like literally on the way to turning back when the cops come to arrest her. Nita has set her up again.

[Sarah McLean]

This is the second time. Right, right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And. And she gets put in jail again. And this time Dean leaves her though there and he doesn't. And she. And it's not like punishment cuz she's like painting murals and like answering phones and stuff because it's, you know, white lady in a small town jail, White lady in jail. But she. Dean is like, I told you I wasn't going to come after you and you left anyway. And then they have one more big conversation where what he says to her is. And it's actually really fascinating. He says to her, all you want to do is run. So you're going to prove to me that you really are committed to me by staying. I mean she basically says it like, I'll stay, I'll stay. That's how you will know. And he's like, fine, I'm not going to call you. It's a fascinating ending. Right.

[Sarah McLean]

Okay, so here's my thing about this is, is Susan really likes to torture her heroines. Yeah, I'm not sure I can think of a, of a book by Susan Elizabeth Phillips where the heroine doesn't have to do penance. Yeah, like I think she likes it. I think she, that's. This is part of her core story. Like sometimes, sometimes the girls have to do it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, I would agree. I would agree. So, so.

[Sarah McLean]

And I think that that's, that's also really interesting. And risk. I mean, you and I, how many times have we said like men need to suffer? And here's the, here's the thing though. Susan threads this needle very well because the men are always suffering.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, Always.

[Sarah McLean]

They're suffering from the jump. But ultimately it's like she wants both of them to have to suffer in order to be worthy of each other. And I think there's something really, like, remarkable about that hallmark in her writing. I think there's an innate respect for her heroines. And that's not to say that the rest of us don't respect our heroines, but, like, I think. I think by putting them through the ringer, Susan is really like. She is. She is showing them, like, an immense level of respect.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, I think so. And I think the idea that, like, like, given their wounds. Right. Like we talked about at the beginning, that, like, both of them have something to prove and it's not just, like, kind of one or the other that, like. And something about, like, the idea of, like, what home is is really, like, what plays into that. I think the thing that is also really interesting is, like, at some point, Lou is able to say, like, I am more invested in the town than you are. You're just, like, a landowner. You know what I mean?

[Sarah McLean]

Like, you're rich. This is like one of 12 million houses. Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I am more connected to this. Yeah. And it's just, like, really interesting, I think, the way that. That. That. That works. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it's the other thing that I really liked about the ending is so Blue has been essentially, like, making money doing art by doing, like, portraits and stuff.

[Sarah McLean]

Sure.

[Jennifer Prokop]

But at the end, she paints a mural in his dining room, which sounds like, basically, like, a Lisa Frank sticker on steroids.

[Sarah McLean]

It actually does. But it all relates back to the caravan. No.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes. But also that, like, everybody is like, oh, boy, this seems terrible. But Dean, when he sees it, immediately realizes that, like, Blue's hardness is all just a facade and it's really hiding her deep. Her, like, her deeply felt. You know what I mean? Like, saw, like, how. I don't know, like, how, like, her, like, soft in our. In her heart. You know what I mean?

[Sarah McLean]

Terrified of showing you.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

She really.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right from the. I mean, like, from the jump. And he just thought that's how she was. And seeing these murals makes him understand, like, she's been fronting. Right. The whole time. And it's really interesting because. Yeah, it's like rain. Like, literally at one point, it's like. Like, I was like, I think I would hate this. But Dean is like, no, I love it, because this. I now really see who you are.

[Sarah McLean]

That's true.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things she does at this, in their time apart is she paints. She paints and paints and paints and paints.

[Sarah McLean]

And.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And she does tell a story about how an art school. Right. Her professors Were kind of like, you know, this is schlock and you can't paint like this. And you know, she let herself, you know, use like motor oil and stuff to, you know, I mean, like, like it's very clear the lessons that she learned. And she's literally like unlearning it. And it's Dean who actually has like the crisis of faith and like, panics when, like, there's a picture of him in a tabloid with another woman. He like, goes screaming down to Tennessee to be like, don't leave me. She's like, what the are you talking about? Right? Panic.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And so I did like that. He panicked at the end.

[Sarah McLean]

He's got. Somebody's got to panic. I mean, and obviously, yeah, men have to panic and Susan knows the job.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

Well, I can't believe this is only the second Susan Elizabeth book Phillips book we've ever talked about. At length. I do just want to. I want to highlight that Jen went on learning the tropes and talked about Kiss an Angel.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

Which is another book that we both really, really love. And so if you are interested, you should go over. We'll put links in, show notes. You should go over and listen to that episode because it's. That book is terrific. What else? You've just reread a bunch of them. Where else should we go? Should readers go?

[Jennifer Prokop]

You know what, it's funny. I loved Dream a Little Dream, which is Gabe's book. It's Cal's brother from Nobody's Baby But Mine. And the thing about this book that is really fascinating is like, flat out, she has like a five year old.

[Sarah McLean]

He.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It turns out his wife and son had died in a car accident, I think. I can't remember. And he like flat out basically hates her kid the entire book. He just cannot. It's too painful for him. And I really spent a lot of that book thinking. A bold choice, Susan, just to allow. Right. Like really be like, again, really human.

[Sarah McLean]

Negative emotions.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes. Right. Like, it is too painful for me. And I think there's a lot of that. Like. Right. Like some of the books I found myself really almost like admiring the most were the ones where people do things that are flagrantly, flagrantly really pretty unforgivable in some ways. Right. I am dipping in and out of the YNET Texas series. I read Lady Be Good, which was always like a real favorite of mine. In fact, one, a really funny scene in that book is where Kenny takes his baby brother Petey to like a diaper derby where they like, race babies. And I didn't realize this. This was, like, in the news yesterday in the Las Vegas Aces, which is the WNBA team, has apparently, something. They do something like that Pacers.

[Sarah McLean]

The Indiana Pacers do it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Like, has, like, one of these during halftime. And this weekend, one of the babies walked for the first time during it. What, like, got. It's an amazing video. So the baby's crawling and, like, moms and, like, there's no other babies. All the other babies are just like. And this baby was like, well, there's mom. And, like, gets up and starts walking and the mom is, like, crying. It's honestly very moving. So, you know, know, there was another.

[Sarah McLean]

One recently where, like, a baby kept going, like, kept turning around. Oh, yeah. Real tortoise in the hair situation.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So. Yeah. And I read. God, I read Call Me or the Small for the first time ever. That was one with Ted where he's like, yeah. So, yeah, it's been fun. I still have some that I haven't read yet. They're still on the Kindle.

[Sarah McLean]

There are many, many, many of them. Yeah. So generally, you're going to have a great time.

[Jennifer Prokop]

You.

[Sarah McLean]

You should start at the early ones and just, like, quietly move your way forward and you'll have a terrific time.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. And she also does the thing I like, where, like, a character will, like, show up and you know what I mean?

[Sarah McLean]

So in the Susan Elizabeth Phillips universe.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, exactly. In. In one of the books, like, Jack and April show up at somebody's wedding. And I was. At that point, I was like, jack Patriot. What a goofy name. And now I'm like, jack Patriot. I trip over a ladder when he walks into our room.

[Sarah McLean]

This.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I think the other thing, like, yeah, like, the banter is, like, really unparalleled. I laugh so hard.

[Sarah McLean]

The thing coming sort of back around full circle to the rom com piece of it, Right. Like, is. I think. I think the reason why I resist the description is that Susan dispenses the slapstick. Like, there is, obviously, like, that cold Open with the Beaver is very funny. And then, like. But then it's just banter until, you know, Jack Patriot walks in the room and Blue trips over a ladder.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like, but the.

[Sarah McLean]

The way they deploy. She deploys the, like, slapstick humor is so careful. Right. Like, by the time we start seeing Blue trip over ladders, we know about her. We, like, love her for who she is. And then I think there is also this piece of, like, the balance between the trauma, like, Riley, their past, like, all of the stuff with the family and the banter. Right. And so I think. And then I had this. I. I texted you at one point, and I texted you right after Blue met April for the first time. And she introduces herself, and she says, I'm Blue. And April says, like, I hope it's only temporary. Right, Right. And the response is how Blue discovers immediately. Like, instantly, she's like, this is Jack's mom. Like, she didn't. Not Jack. I'm sorry. This is Dean's mom. And it. The humor in this book is deployed in such a. Like, strategically is. I guess what I'm saying.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

I think calling this a rom com is not accurate, but I think it is the best version of a romance. Of a comedic romance.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

That you can find. I think Susan's just funny. Right. Like, there. It's funny writing. And I think about. You know, we all. We always talk about that. Like, the line in Nobody's Baby But Mine where, like, he pulls all the marshmallows out of the lucky charm.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, yeah, right.

[Sarah McLean]

She calls him a serial killer. Like, and it's just like a bar. It's like a laugh. A laugh.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

It's such a surprise in the moment. Right. But, like, I just think we need to be careful about what we're asking for when we talk about comedy and romance.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, I think that's right.

[Sarah McLean]

And I think if we're gonna ask for comedy, the reason why comedy works in real life, like, comedians will tell you, like, comedy works because it is the foil for tragedy. So, like, you have to be serious about the text that you're draft that you're writing for comedy to really work as a structural choice. And I think Susan knows how. I think Susan does that really well. I think Jenny does that really well. I think Misosa does. I mean, like, we've talked about who we think does it well. But, like, there's. But. But it's. I just wish we were more careful as an industry about deploying that word.

[Jennifer Prokop]

We haven't really talked about, like, Nita Garrison. Right. Like, the older woman who is. I know, right. Like, and I think one of the things that's really. It made me think is in a comedy, in a movie, often women are the targets of the comedy. And in a book, they. I don't think they can be in romance. And Nita is a character who is funny on page, but she's never really the object of it. Right. Does that make sense? So. Right. Think that that's part of the reason why it ends up working. Right. Like it's funny without being mean in some sort of way. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

We're not a space where you can like punch down.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sarah McLean]

And I do think like in rom coms often that happens. Yeah, not rom com books. Rom com film.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah McLean]

Anyway, I think you should all go read this book. I think you have a great time.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I think so too.

[Sarah McLean]

Also, you'll really enjoy all of the music references. Just know it was written in 2007 for sure. Because I like lifted my head and I turned to Eric and I was like, wait, when is Coldplay? And he was like, not the 90s, the early 90s. And I was like, well, I'm wrong about something here.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Someone's wrong on the Internet.

[Sarah McLean]

Sarah I am Sarah McLean. I'm here with my friend Jen Proco Hop. We are Faded Mates. You can listen to us every Wednesday wherever you get your podcasts. Although in a couple of weeks we're taking two weeks off. We'll let you know when that is. We are almost at the end of season seven, so this is our final read along for season season seven. We'll come up with a new one for season eight and let you know when that begins. We are very excited to be with you on on Instagram at Faded Mates Pod, on Threads at Faded Maids Pod and on Blue sky at Fated Mates. You can also, if you just love talking about romance novels and wish you could do it more with more people who are very cool, you can join our Patreon which gives you access to one extra episode a month and our Discord where magnificent firebirds are hanging out.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Talking about romance all the time.

[Sarah McLean]

You can do [e-mail] Patreon it is election season coming up in local elections and legislative elections, state legislative elections around the country. We are working with the States Project to help turn state legislatures blue. You can learn more about [e-mail] and we'll get more into that in September when we back with season eight. Other than that, Jen, you're gonna be anywhere, do anything.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Going back to school, everybody.

[Sarah McLean]

New Zealand and Australia, I'm coming your way. Come see me at the New Zealand Romance Writers Conference and the Australian Romance Writers Conference. I'll be at both of them and I hope you all have a great week.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Bye everybody.

[Sarah McLean]

Sa.