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Fated Mates - Romance Books for Novel People
08.45: Judith McNaught's Perfect: Content Warning, the 90's
01:51:58
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- [00:01]
A
Content warning, 1990s.
- [00:06]
B
So there.
- [00:07]
A
We could do a whole content warning. Peach dresses.
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B
Oh, my God, so many clothing disasters. But also, like, Bless, bless the 90s.
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A
And the way at one point in this book it says cellular telephone. There's honestly so much to talk about. I am.
- [00:32]
B
Oh, I cannot wait. Anyway. But first of all, it's everybody.
- [00:37]
A
Hello.
- [00:38]
B
Welcome to Faded Mates. I guess we're jumping right in.
- [00:40]
A
Just go, let's write it.
- [00:41]
B
No banter. We're just like, we have. We have a McNaught to discuss. Like, it's very serious business here today. And by serious, we mean this is gonna be bananas.
- [00:53]
A
Oh, yeah. You know what's funny is Eric was like, turn down your levels. And what is the first thing I did? Like, shouted into my microphone? Clipped all over with that. But whatever, it's fine. Everybody.
- [01:04]
B
I'm Sarah McLean. I read romance novels and I write them.
- [01:07]
A
And I'm Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader and editor. And this week, we're talking about Sarah's all time fave. Wait.
- [01:14]
B
I mean, I'm. Yes, we're gonna put a pin in that, Jen. We're coming back around because Eric did ask me to tell everybody something, which is. And this is actually a nice. There. There's a nice segue in here that, you know, maybe he'll cut everything up and it'll sound like, I made the segue, and maybe he'll just leave all this nonse cents in because he likes to do that, too. For you dummies on the Patreon. I kid. I kid. They're not dummies.
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A
We're the dummies.
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B
We're the dummies. And he actually wants me to talk about the Patreon because one thing that he wanted us to sort of mention and maybe sort of tell you all is if you are not members, we talk about the Patreon at the end of the episode always. But we also know that, like, not everybody listens to the end of the episode. You sort of. We sort of get into our goofy goodbye, and. And then you're all like, we don't need you idiots anymore. And that's fair. I support you however you want to listen.
- [02:09]
A
Why are they still talking?
- [02:11]
B
Exactly. But what Eric did say to me today, which is kind of wild, is There are about 40 special episodes on the Patreon now. And so Patreon only episodes. And so maybe you don't know that if you join our Patreon, which is there. There are levels to join the Patreon, but that means nothing. Because they're all the same. They're all the. Everybody gets everything the same on the Patreon.
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A
Just your budget.
- [02:38]
B
Exactly. Exactly. If you join the Patreon, you get access to a banter episode every month where Jen and I basically just, like, yammer and that. If that sounds fun to you, it's often about craft.
- [02:55]
A
I feel like it's like Jen and Sarah. There's, like, a layer of, like, honesty.
- [02:59]
B
It's like Jen and Sarah After Dark.
- [03:01]
A
Really?
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B
Because it is also a sense of, like, there are things that I'll say on the Patreon that, like, I probably would not say on Main, or if I said them on Main, I'd be a little more careful about how I phrase them.
- [03:12]
A
Yes.
- [03:13]
B
So, but also, if you just really. If you're new to Fade of mates and you enjoy listening and you think, like, oh, I like those little, like, back and forth that they do about other stuff, the Patreon could be really joyful for you. You get access to the monthly special episode, which we call Banter plus in honor of Ted Lasso, which is coming again August 4th. And if you join, you also get access, obviously, to the Discord, which is where you can hang out with a bunch of other romance readers who are very excited about talking about books all the time. So you don't just get the hour and a half on Wednesday. You get, you know, some more time to talk about romance. And who doesn't want that?
- [03:57]
A
Yes.
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B
Especially when you can go over there and talk about Judith McNaught books, which is honestly my whole personality this. These last few weeks.
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A
Sure.
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B
I don't have much personality these last few weeks because I had knee surgery. And so I'm very boring. I'm just, like, sitting in my house reading old McNaughts.
- [04:16]
A
I mean, that sounds like a nice time, doesn't it? Now we've talked about a couple of McNaughts.
- [04:22]
B
No, we deep. We did a deep dive on A
- [04:25]
A
Kingdom of Dreams and Double standards, didn't we?
- [04:28]
B
No, I talked about. No, we've talked about a couple times.
- [04:33]
A
Sarah.
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B
I will tell you, though, I would never recommend Double standards as, like, a entry point.
- [04:40]
A
Sure.
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B
Because it's insane for McNaught. That hero is terrible. Like, I mean, amazing. I love him.
- [04:49]
A
But Daddy, I love him.
- [04:53]
B
But. Yeah, so we have talked about. We talked about Kingdom of Dreams, which is older than this. Perfect was published in the early 90s. Kingdom of Dreams, I think, was a late 80s book. McNaught actually hasn't written as many books as I wish that she had written. Correct.
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A
There are only like 16 of them or something.
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B
I think that maybe because every one of her books is really like seven or eight books, like, smush together.
- [05:23]
A
Correct.
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B
Now, listen, there's nobody who loves plot more than Judith McNaught. Oh, God bless her.
- [05:29]
A
I have a great time reading this.
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B
Wait, if you've been sitting around reading romance novels for the last two or three years going, nothing happens in these books, let me tell you something that is not a worry.
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A
No, not at all. It's insane. It really is. It's crazy. So. Yeah. Okay. So, Sarah.
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B
Yeah.
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A
I have so many questions and thoughts
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B
and I know, and I'm a little nervous because I feel like I sort of prodded you via text a couple times and you were sort of like, terse with me. No, I don't know if you were saving him for the pod, but I'm, like, a little nervous because this book, listen, I finished it this morning, and everybody. Okay, Jen said it's my fave, and it is not my favorite. Judith McNaught. My favorite Judith McNaught, bar none, is a kingdom of dreams. And that's just, like, fact. Like, sure, nobody should have a different one. Like, that's the best one. But this book, I mean, I think. I think it's a lot of reasons. There are a lot of reasons why is my favorite. I think it is, like, the. It could really, honestly be one of the first contemporaries I ever read. Like, it. I don't know that for sure, but it could be. And it could be because I found her, like, she could be the writer I found at, like, 13 or 14, and then went to the library and got all of them, her books and read them like, one after another after another after another. And so, like, she was the first author who, like, truly just, like, opened my head and, like, poured in, like, direct, directly into my brain. And I think so. I think, like, there's that. And I think also, you know, Eric was asking me this morning, like, what is it about, like, this. This writer? Because two weeks ago I read Tender Triumph, which is her debut, which I had never read before, and I bought it off of ebay, and I was laid up and I was reading it. And I will tell you, like, it is not great, but it is, like, a really fantastic first book. Like, it's very. Look again. This trigger warning, the 80s. Like, there's a lot in this book that I. Where I was like, oh, no. But also, like, McNaught is always trying to do something. I think in her books, even if, like, now, through the lens of 40 years. Yikes. Or, you know, 30. What is it? 30 years.
- [08:09]
A
Yeah.
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B
Right. It's through the lens of 30 years. It feels like, what are we doing it really, when you sort of, like, subtract the years and try to put yourself into the 90s. Like, a lot of what's going on in these books is really interesting to me. Like, she doesn't shy away from politics. Small p. She doesn't. She doesn't shy away from, like, identity. Like, there's a lot of really interesting stuff going on in here in these books. But then also, there's so much plot. There's so much happening.
- [08:41]
A
Yes.
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B
And the feelings are all dialed up to 11. And these characters are, like, all just like. They're, like, in a. They're like, you know, like. I don't even know. They're like atoms just, like, bouncing off of each other and around the room. Like, it's so fun to read. And. And, like, I just. Now reading. Perfect for the. I mean, I read it at least once a year, usually more than once a year.
- [09:07]
A
In its entirety or just most of it.
- [09:08]
B
We'll talk about how I read it, because I don't read it in its entirety. In fact, I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've read it in its entirety in 20 years. I mean, like, a long time.
- [09:20]
A
That's the part that's really interesting. Right?
- [09:24]
B
And then. And I read it at least once a year, probably more frequently than that. And then. And. But I was just. This morning. I still get that, like, heavy.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Like, my chest is heavy through. It's funny, because I was paying attention to, like, the percentage. I was reading it on my Kindle, and I was paying attention to my. The percentages. And I was like, God, I started getting that tight chest at, like, 40% correct. And I just stayed tight.
- [09:53]
A
And then it stays there. Sarah. I had to look ahead. I was like, what's going to fucking happen? No. Yes. I literally was like, oh, no, what's going to happen now? I'm going to tell you. Before we could talk about perfect. I want to say, like, I also was a McNaught reader. Now, everybody, if you are, like, kind of new to the romance game, one of the things you will, like, learn about yourselves is, like, you start to have your favorite books, your favorite authors, then you have, like, your favorite book by your favorite author, and. And then you have the books that, like. I mean, so the book for me was, remember when. I remember reading that over and over, and over again.
- [10:29]
B
Right.
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A
The White Orchid Ball or whatever in Dallas or something. And, you know, I definitely read perfect. I mean, when I was rereading this, there were times that I was like, oh, yeah, I remember this, especially, frankly, the ending. You know, the whole part. The whole entire front end about the kidnapping did not have as much as much of a. But it's hard for me to know if you overwrote those memories. Cause you've talked about that so much.
- [10:54]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [10:55]
A
You know, but, like, the ending. Which part? Wait, the part, like, you have talked so often about, like, the kidnapping part
- [11:02]
B
of the book, which is, like, the first, like, 12. Well, it's not, but it's like. It's like a small amount of the book.
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A
Yeah, right. And so I was like, wait, what's gonna happen? And then. But, like, the end I'll talk about later. I was like, oh, this is where I come online.
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B
I remember all this stuff, man.
- [11:20]
A
So I read it. I mean, I read it, too. But it's funny because, you know, you have the authors that you, like, read and never reread. I mean, listen, I love Jude Devereaux, but I've never reread a Judvariaux book in my kind of modern. Modern iteration of me as a romance reader.
- [11:39]
B
And this is where, like, when people say to me, like, who's the best? Right? Like, you think about the 4Js, right?
- [11:47]
A
Yeah.
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B
And people say to me all the time, like, well, which one is the best? And Obviously, personally, like, McNaught is the best. Like, there's, like.
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A
Yeah, for you.
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B
For me, in my opinion, McNaught is the best. However, what I would say is McNaught also. And we did that. We talked about this when Kingdom of Dreams. When we did Kingdom of Dreams, and there was all that sort of, like, negotiation of toxic masculinity. Right? And she. She was trying. She was doing something in that text. And it still hits, like.
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A
Right.
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B
Obviously it hits in a different way. And, like, you kind of have to, like you. It has to be refracted through a lens of, like, you know, whatever second wave feminism and, like, you know, all of that stuff. But, like, it hits still. Yes, in this book. This book hits still. Tender triumph. Like, what she's trying to do in that text hits still.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And it's really interesting to me because you say, I don't read. I've not reread Judvariau. I have read some, reread some G. Devereaux. It does not work through the lens of 2020. 6. It just doesn't. There's too much to sort of wave away.
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A
Yeah. Yeah.
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B
And so I think, like, for me, when I talk. And I think the other piece of this is when we talk about the family tree, right? Like, obviously, the family tree of romance is very big, and it. There are. And there are, like, main branches, some pretty solid main branches. And if you were to say, like. And I think McNaught Hole, like, is a main branch of the tree. And the reason why is. But what's interesting is, and this is another thing I was talking about this morning is, like, I think you don't have Claypas without McNaught. I think you don't have Lorraine Heath without McNaught. I think you don't have Kressley Cole without McNaught. And I don't know that necessarily all of them are, like, I was a McNaught fan, right? But the DNA.
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A
Right, exactly.
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B
I mean. And I can tell you, you don't have Sarah MacLaine without McNaught. Like, the through line is. So reading this now, I was like, oh, this is why my books have so much plot in them. Like, this is. This is where I learned. You know, I learned by watching you. So there's so. I mean, like, obviously, you're. Now, I know there are a lot of people who have a lot of big feelings about, you know, Whitney, my love, and, like, a lot of the. Like, the stuff that was baked in there, though I will always be the first person to say, like, she changed Whitney. Like, she came back to it and changed the text, and she was one. She was the first to do it. And, like. And I think we have to say, like, if you want to point to the adage of, like, when you know better, you do better. Like, Judith McNaught actually really did try to do better with Whitney later in her career. But that said, like, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna. I don't feel like I need to defend her because I actually think, like, the books stand.
- [14:55]
A
I mean, that's. Listen, so everybody. I mean, all joking about, like, content warning, the 90s aside, which that is true at, like. Like, levels. There are other ways I found myself thinking, like, really hard about, like, okay, what are the things that, like, made me think that way outside of, like, fashion choices?
- [15:11]
B
So many references to Kevin Costner.
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A
So many.
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B
Like, like, I'm so sorry, everyone, but, like, at one point she says Steven Seagal, and I'm like, what?
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A
Oh, yeah, I definitely clocked that one, Judith. Right? But I think, like, I so we'll get to that. But I mean, for sure, there were things that I was like, wow, I think these are, like, authors wouldn't do it this way today. But I think that potentially they're still, like, worth unpacking, like, kind of what was being done.
- [15:45]
B
So do you want to. So let's get into it. This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Kylie Scott, author of Runaway Rock Star A Fated Mates favorite. Jen.
- [15:57]
A
Okay, the fact that Kylie Scott is back with a rock star romance. I am ready. So in this one, we have Nash Porter. He is a rock star who wants out. He's had enough of the nonstop grinding tours, the pressure to be, you know, perfect and successful and fame. He is ready for a taste of normalcy, and his retired housekeeper's home in a charming small town is the last place anyone would look for him. Now, meanwhile, June Calloway has been dumped and evicted by her idiot ex. And she's also ready for a change of scenery. So when her grandmother suggests June visit, she jumps at the chance. What could be better than some quiet time in a quaint town to kind of restart her life and take her mind off everything? What she doesn't anticipate is that a rock star in hiding will be her new roommate and that she'll have to keep him away from the media and his adoring fans.
- [16:48]
B
Amazing.
- [16:49]
A
How do you conceal a platinum seller award winning musician's true identity? Well, it's not gonna be easy, but June has some ideas. It starts with a shave and a haircut and ends with everyone believing that this is her very ordinary, not the slightest bit famous ex who has come to woo her back. Surely nothing could go wrong.
- [17:09]
B
Man, I love Celebrity Normie romance. It's my favorite favorite and I cannot wait for this. If it is also your favorite favorite, then you can get Runaway Rockstar right now in print or ebook. And if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title to be taken to learn more. Thanks to Kylie Scott for sponsoring this week's episode. If it's also your favorite favorite, then you can pre order Runaway Rockstar right now in print or in ebook. And if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks so much to Kylie Scott for sponsoring this week's episode. I think we have to talk about the fact that, like, I don't read the first 112 pages of the of this book.
- [17:53]
A
Yeah, so on the reread everybody here
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B
and not for you guys? Not because it's problematic, like.
- [17:58]
A
No, it's just. I mean, here's the thing.
- [18:00]
B
If you. It's really fascinating.
- [18:03]
A
It was really fascinating to me. And we did this when we talked about Gentle Rogue, too.
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B
Oh, Gentle Rogue.
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A
Right. Romance, pacing and plotting is very different. Right.
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B
And we.
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A
It's like, if you only think, like, oh, yeah, they're going to have, like a ha. Like a boring sex scene at 78% the way they do now. You. You know what I mean? Like, that is pacing for 2026. That was not pacing for 1996. And I think, like, there's all these ways in which, like, the pacing of the book in general is really, to a modern reader is gonna feel completely wild. And by that, I mean these two main characters are literally not on page
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B
together for the first 17% of the book.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And not even. Not on. It's not like. It's not like they're both machinating to get to each other.
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A
No.
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B
These two idiots have no idea the other one exists.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Right.
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A
And.
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B
And, like, so much so, because we begin in childhood. It's Dickens shit. I am born. Right.
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A
Like, also, like, it's like 1976. And I was like, I just feel. I mean. But, you know, if you read a book that started now, I mean, it was, you know, in 2006, you'd be like, yeah, sure, okay, 20 years ago, I got you.
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B
But, you know, when you start, no, it's brutal. It hurts. One of the. I mean, I was born in one of the years in this book. And I was like, oh, no,
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A
let's not talk about it.
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B
I was like. I was like, zach and Julie are collecting Social Security right now.
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A
I mean, I will say that was one of the things about really, like, dating them to, like, a certain kind of movie star is. I'm like, yeah, I can picture Kevin Costner and Michelle Pfeiffer right now. And Patrick Swayze. I'm sorry, has not been with us for a long time.
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B
Like, I know Julie was upset about that, I think.
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A
I mean, Julie's devastated. She lives.
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B
And so was I. Everyone. But. Okay, sorry. All right. So we begin in childhood. Like, true. When I say Dickens shit, I mean, like, truly Dickens shit. Because we begin with two traumas, right? But what's interesting is the prologue, which doesn't. Listen. Doesn't make any sense. Why this is a prologue. But the prologue.
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A
Let's call it 1976, you guys, who
- [20:25]
B
cares for romance reasons?
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A
This is a prologue.
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B
So the prologue of this book is Zach Being kicked. Who is born with a platinum spoon in his mouth. Right, right. Like, into a very, very wealthy family on the Main Line in. In Pennsylvania who own, like.
- [20:45]
A
Like a.
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B
Like, factories.
- [20:47]
A
Yeah. I don't think it's the Main Line, I think, probably, but they do have
- [20:50]
B
a lot of money.
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A
And they have a lot of money, but, like, they own the town. Right. Like, they own the factory.
- [20:54]
B
Okay. This is not the Main Line, but, like, they have that kind of money.
- [20:58]
A
I will say it is really fun.
- [21:00]
B
And grandma sort of feels mainliney.
- [21:02]
A
Oh, yeah. It is really funny to read these old books and be like, they're all out of business now. Oh, yeah. This is like a dead town steel factory. Winterbourne. Nobody like there. Right. Winterbourne's just owned Sears.
- [21:14]
B
No, they got a bunch of that opioid money. And, like, that's. That's where the money comes from now. So. Yeah, no, I had the same thought. Jen was like, there's, like. Interestingly, like, this is. It's such a snapshot of America, too.
- [21:28]
A
Yes.
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B
I think America across the board also, because did you notice Ann Richards is the governor of Texas?
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A
I did.
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B
Like, there are some really fascinating. It really does feel like a. It's. It's like a snapshot.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Anyway, so, okay, so Zach comes from, like, big, big money. He has two siblings and a dead brother. And that's what we know. And we're told. It's told through the point of view of the. I guess this is why it's the prologue. It's told through the point of view of the grandmother.
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A
Yes.
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B
Right. And so the grandmother, like, he walks in the house. She is dis. Essentially, like, taking away the money. Their parents died, and now their grandfather died. And this, like, bitter old lady has removed their trust funds and basically told all these kids, like, they have to live by her rules or get the out.
- [22:18]
A
Except in your college now, kids.
- [22:20]
B
Yeah. Going to junior college anyway. And then she takes one look at Zach and she's like. And you. I hate you the most. You're my. Like, you. I hate you for everything you've done. You get nothing. You get the clothes on your back because I can't take them from you. Get the out. And he gets out and he hitchhikes. I mean, there's a lot of hitchhiking in this book, too. A lot of reference to hitching, which, again, doesn't happen anymore. No, he hitchhikes on a.
- [22:51]
A
Like.
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B
On a. Like, whatever.
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A
Yeah. Like, he, like, is on the road, right? Yeah.
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B
On a big truck to California, to Los Angeles. And that's what we know. We just know, like, he's gone that way. Cut to the beginning of the book, which is Julie, our heroine, at the age of 11.
- [23:12]
A
Yes.
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B
In a bad seed of terror. Like, like, learn. Knows how to hot wire cars, has been stealing. Like, is in foster care, is seeing a psychologist, a psychiatrist. Child psychiatrist. Cannot read. And we need to talk about this, like, literacy piece of the whole book. Cannot read and is in a psychiatrist's office being observed through, like, a window. And in. So McNaught, she's like a bad seed. Like, she, you know, has done all this terrible stuff, but it turns out she's actually like, the Robin Hood of her orphanage or wherever she lives. Like, she, like, steals from people and then, like, helps the other kids in the orphanage. And she's brilliant and very smart, but she can't read. And then she. And she's in Chicago because that's where crime happens. And then she.
- [24:13]
A
And then don't tell mom the babysitter's dead.
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B
Exactly.
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A
Foster Care edition. Yeah.
- [24:18]
B
And then she is shipped to Texas, where a family in a small, small town in Texas is going to adopt her. And they adopt her. And then we see, like, chapters upon chapters of, like, Julie being a kid.
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A
Yeah, right, sure.
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B
Like, just sort of. And, like, we see her build up. This is where McNaught is, like, building up her. Her obsession with being perfect. Because she gets there to this town, and basically, the.
- [24:56]
A
The.
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B
The minister, the Reverend. Who is it.
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A
The father.
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B
Who is her father, like, ultimately becomes her father, adopts her with. And his wife are basically, like, we will always trust you as long as you don't give us reason not to trust you. Like, and we will love you and you are welcome here. And here are your older brothers, and, like, this is your perfect nuclear family. And, like, everything's gonna be. Everything's gonna be perfect from here on out.
- [25:19]
A
Right.
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B
As long as you are good. And they mean it as, like, listen, don't steal, like, from your friends.
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A
Don't hotwire any more cars.
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B
Yeah. And she takes it as, like, I have to be perfect.
- [25:33]
A
Right.
- [25:34]
B
And so. And this is, like, obviously it's the title of the book. And it, like, comes back again and again and again, this sort of, like, obsession. Julie's obsession with being perfect, like, with doing the right capital R thing. And so then we see Julie grow up. And then we see Julie, like, she's got this. She's very, like, invested in adult literacy, thanks to the Korus Corporation. And I mean that literally everyone at the Jen's book does not have this.
- [26:05]
A
I did not.
- [26:06]
B
Yeah, I didn't.
- [26:07]
A
But is this like in the paperback? Is this like your original copy?
- [26:11]
B
No, it's in the. But I have a couple things to say about this one, and I will try to find it for show notes, everybody, or for chapter images. I will try and look for it, although it might be tricky for me to find it. But Kelly Faircloth, who is a friend of the pod, once found me in People magazine. There was an ad for this book, and the ad for the book included information about a percentage of book sales going to the National Organization for Adult Literacy. The book that I have has a beginning with a letter from Judith McNaught. And she says, there's something I think you'll enjoy knowing as you begin reading. Perfect. And it's this. The first draft of the manuscript did not contain a single reference to illiteracy. I was editing the first draft when Coors Brewing Company contacted me in an effort to persuade me to write a book for them that would highlight the problem of women's literacy, a book they could publish in a few months time. There were so many reasons I couldn't possibly do that. I wasn't finished with Perfect, and even if I had been, I couldn't write fast enough to produce a good book in their timeframe. We know this, right? McNaught just didn't write fast.
- [27:26]
A
Yeah.
- [27:27]
B
Coors had made women's literacy their social project for the year, however, and I agreed to read the material that they sent me. The packet of material was large and the content horrifying because it documented that 20% of American women were functionally illiterate. 20% of our sisters could not read according to the material. The best way to teach an illiterate woman to read is one on one with another woman who is willing to commit suicide six months of her life to accomplish the goal. I felt that I was supposed to help, that I was meant to help, and that I owed it to God and to my sisters to help. So I asked Simon and Schuster to let me delay Turning Imperfect for two months. And when they understood why, they agreed.
- [28:08]
A
Wow. So that's really interesting.
- [28:11]
B
It's an interesting like. And then I think Coors, the book was. I'm sure it's in the letter. I put it down because it's a letter.
- [28:20]
A
But
- [28:24]
B
she wrote the book in Colorado, in a house on the mountaintop. We'll get to that. Actually, it doesn't say that. It says what it says, oh, this letter came after the fact. And so she says as a result of Reading perfect, more than 5,000 women contacted their local literacy agencies and signed up to spend six months to teaching another woman to read. Now, I don't have my first edition Perfect in my office, and I can't go search it out in my boxes because of my leg, but I'm gonna see if Eric will do it. But in the original copy that I have, I think there was a card.
- [29:00]
A
Oh, wow.
- [29:01]
B
Like that, like, had information or an ad at the back that had information. And then there was also information, if I remember correctly, that Coors was donating some amount of money and that Simon and Schuster was also donating some amount of money. And so, like, this was a book. It's interesting because I think I remember this from when I read it. But I also think of this. I think of this as something that's, like, very known. Like, this is a book that this is. It's a book where romance kind of was very actively doing a thing.
- [29:35]
A
Yeah. Right.
- [29:36]
B
And I think that's interesting, too. And I don't think it's a surprise. It's not a surprise to me that it's McNaught. But I do think it's also interesting because she took two months and she filled this book with a full story.
- [29:54]
A
Yeah. Because Julie, essentially, as a child, skipped so much school and was sickly and was kind of passed around from foster family to foster family that she cannot read at the beginning. And there's this really painful scene where she's, like, in a doctor's office and goes to the bathroom and she knows some letters, but she can't get back to this office because she just can't read. And it's like a really sort of fascinating, like, sort of. I don't. Like, It's a real, like, part of, like, the backbone of her character is this, like, knowing what it was like. And so although she is driven to be perfect in some ways, to sort of, like, please the family and, like, prove that she was worthy of sort of being saved, it's also, like, a really deeply felt part of her character that she wants to help people.
- [30:42]
B
Correct. Right.
- [30:43]
A
And I think that's why then when she is kidnapped by, you know, Zach, who's escaping from prison. Right.
- [30:52]
B
You skipped over a lot.
- [30:53]
A
I did. I skipped over a hundred pages.
- [30:58]
B
This week's episode of Fade of Mates is sponsored by E.W. anderson, author of the Midnight Book Club, book one in the midnights on the Square series.
- [31:08]
A
So this is a really fun series and is great if you are a lover of both romance and the classic. So writer Aurelia Lindham inherits a London bookshop from her beloved aunt. And this includes that there is like a flat above the bookstore.
- [31:24]
B
Why Don't I Ever Inherit London Bookshops?
- [31:28]
A
Truly a mystery to both of us. So she moves into the bookstore and then starts hearing like weird noises and voices is coming from inside the bookshop at night. And she discovers that this is a magic bookshop and that the characters in some of the books essentially appear in the shop and she can talk to them. What? Yeah, it's amazing. And so what happens is, is she spends sort of like every night talking to the characters from Sense and Sensibility and Little Women and Anna Karenina. And this unlocks her longstanding writer's block, allowing her to meet a very handsome editor who's gonna help her with even though he doesn't know that a lot of the inspiration for her book is coming from the characters themselves. This is a really heartwarming essentially like kisses Only romance. If you are really someone who has like been looking to find like sort of the best book to introduce someone to like sort of like kind of cozy romance, this is the book for you. And it is the first book, the Midnight Book Club and the whole series is available now.
- [32:37]
B
Well, if you love a He Falls First Mutual Pining inherited a magical bookshop from your aunt story. I mean, I have an aunt in England. She could get it together to do that for me. Then you are going to love the whole Midnights on the Square series. Like Jen said, all three books are now available wherever books are sold and you can get them in print or ebook or if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title to be taken to learn more. Thanks to E.W. anderson for sponsoring this week's episode. I also think there's something here about Julie. I and I will talk about it as we get through to the end because we are obviously going to spoil this 30 year old book, everybody. So, you know, I don't know stop now if that's going to be a concern. But when we get to the end there, I think there's something very interesting that she does character wise with Julie because Julie is sort of insufferable in like not she's not insufferable but the sort of perception of this woman who is, is just so perfect. Yeah, she works, she's a school teacher. She is a special ed teacher. She is, she, you know, volunteers with the like church pageant. She is, you know, and she volunteers. She does all this work with adult. With, like, women who have. Who are struggling with literacy. And then. And she's like, the reason why she meets Zach is because she's driven, like, four hours to meet the grandparent of one of her students. Like, she's just constantly going above and beyond because she is perfect. Like, she is perfect. So all this is to say, so meanwhile, back at the ranch, Zach, or back, not perfect, that Zach is not perfect. I mean, he's a perfect actor. He's got a perfect face, perfect abs, sure. But he's not perfect as a person. Zach has become a very successful movie star. We have seen her. Julie's brothers, like, in the past. Like, they had posters of him on the wall. They were really into him. And she always thought he looked very cold, right? Not. He wasn't warm. He was very cold. So Zach is in la. He becomes like a true movie star. Like a movie star. And this is another reason why it feels like a snapshot. Like a movie star. Like, I feel like we don't have movie stars like Zach really anymore.
- [35:02]
A
Right, Exactly.
- [35:03]
B
And so he's become a movie star. He's also now had this opportunity to direct. There's a reference to Dances With Wolves in this book. I'm pretty sure he's like. He's Kevin Costner. Except Kevin Costner is also in this book.
- [35:16]
A
Right, Right. Exactly. Right.
- [35:17]
B
Bananas, everybody.
- [35:19]
A
So.
- [35:21]
B
And he. So he's had this chance to direct. He is directing a film that stars his wife, who is that he has a very sort of contentious relationship with, who is also a giant movie star and another guy. And they're shooting, like, the second to last scene in the film where the wife is supposed to kill this other guy. And Zach decides that he is going to have the.
- [35:49]
A
The.
- [35:49]
B
He's going to change the scene. He decides it's sort of like at the last moment, and he's like, I'm gonna change the scene. I'm gonna have him kill her instead. And then he goes back to his hotel that night, opens the door and discovers that his wife and this man have been.
- [36:07]
A
Yeah, I've been fucking.
- [36:10]
B
And he's in Ra. Every. Everybody. People.
- [36:12]
A
And there are people with him. And he's like, right. And she's like, I'm gonna divorce you. And he's like, I'd kill you before I give you a minute of my, like, a penny of my money. Right? Everyone here's.
- [36:23]
B
Make it McNaught.
- [36:24]
A
Sure.
- [36:25]
B
And so, in fact, I think. Is it called. No, it's called Destiny, the movie. Same Thing is called destiny.
- [36:30]
A
Same energy.
- [36:31]
B
So. And then the next day, they go to the. They go to set. No one's talking. Everybody's cranky, and here comes time for the shooting. And the guy picks up the gun, and he shoots. Shoots her. And wouldn't you believe everybody? There are no blanks in the gun. It's real bullets and dead.
- [36:47]
A
Right. Right.
- [36:48]
B
Zach is, of course, immediately believed to be the, like, prime suspect. Nobody. He's hired. He hires, like, lawyers and investigators and whatever. Nobody can find any proof that it's anybody but him. He gets convicted, he gets put away.
- [37:03]
A
Yeah.
- [37:03]
B
To a horrific jail in Texas.
- [37:09]
A
And the reason it's horrific is because the superintendent. Superintendent. The warden, is essentially using Zach. It's his, like. I mean, like, he has, like, a room next door to his office where he tortures inmates, and.
- [37:24]
B
You know what I mean? Like.
- [37:25]
A
Yeah.
- [37:25]
B
Horrible person.
- [37:26]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [37:26]
B
He has a dog named Hitler, everybody. Which I have forgotten about until this read. I don't read these book pages.
- [37:32]
A
McNaught was like, in case you. You weren't sure this was a bad guy.
- [37:35]
B
What is it? Animals mean something, Jen.
- [37:39]
A
Animals are always symbols, everybody. And so he also, though, loves making Zack his chauffeur, just because he's like, yeah, the power of that. Right. I have the most, you know, kind of famous man in prison, and this, you know, movie star is like, my. I get to order him around. And because of this, though, Zach has essentially been like, plotting and planning his own escape with the help of his cellmate, who is sort of, like, hooked
- [38:09]
B
into, like, the local mafia, Dominic Santino.
- [38:13]
A
Dominic Love him. And, you know, Dominic loves Zach, and
- [38:17]
B
Dom has juries who are obsessed with Zach.
- [38:21]
A
Yeah, of course.
- [38:22]
B
You know, and Dom's mom makes some great red sauce.
- [38:28]
A
And so the, like, the whole. And this is it. You all. The first hundred pages of this book.
- [38:33]
B
We're only 100 pages into this book.
- [38:35]
A
Yes. Is, like, all of this backstory and all. And I. And it's funny because I. You know, sometimes people ask me, Sarah, if, like, I read. When I'm reading, am I reading, like, kind of with an editorial eye? And I'm also like, no, you know what? You got to pay me for that if you want me to turn that on.
- [38:50]
B
You'd turn it on and off, right?
- [38:52]
A
Yeah. And. But, like, in this book, I really was like, if this came across my
- [38:57]
B
desk, you'd be like, you have to cut this.
- [38:59]
A
I'd be like, you gotta cut all this. You gotta press. You have to cut this.
- [39:03]
B
Yeah. You'd Put the trauma later in the book. Like, you'd make it revel.
- [39:08]
A
They'd reveal each other.
- [39:10]
B
It is also revealed. Like, they reveal it to each other in text too. So, like, we're sort of seeing it almost now in 2026. Feels like throat clearing.
- [39:21]
A
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Like, just get to it.
- [39:25]
B
Except it's like truly what it is is like the most show don't tell there is, like, because we are seeing the trauma sort of be embedded in the characters. So. So page 115, Zack escapes from prison. And this is where I begin. Like, this is. Every time I go back to this
- [39:44]
A
book, that's where you start.
- [39:45]
B
I start with Zach. Like, I usually start with him, like, telling Dom, like, here's. Because he's planned it all out, because Dom is with them on the escape, and Dom only has four more weeks in prison. And so he's like, Dom is like, I want to go to my sister's wedding. And Zach is like, no, you can't go to your sister's. Like, don't be dumb. You have four more weeks and then you're out.
- [40:07]
A
Meanwhile, why didn't the sister wait four weeks to get married? This is a question I had. But he would.
- [40:11]
B
Exactly.
- [40:14]
A
That was only available that one day.
- [40:16]
B
Yeah, whatever. So romance reasons, Jen. So. So there. So there we are. So they're both sort of like, lacking there. He's his chauffeur. He's the warden. Chauffeur. He takes the warden somewhere and then he says to Tom, now listen, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna escape. And Dom's family has sort of, like, helped. Like, there's been money exchanged. Like, there's like a package. Like, he's got a change of clothes, like, other things, and he's like, I'm going. And these are the steps you are going to take. He's like, gamed it all through to make sure that you come out looking like a hero. Because you, Dom, will be the person who call, who basically, like, raises the red flag. So, so, and then Zack is like in the wind, and he gets himself to a rest stop where, wouldn't you know it, Julie has been coming back from visiting the grandparent of one of her students. Like Little Red Riding Hood. And it's snowing in North Texas, which I guess happens. And so it's.
- [41:30]
A
I was like, okay, sure, the snow is coming down.
- [41:32]
B
I mean, McNaught lived in Texas, so fine. Because it goes Texas, Oklahoma, Colorado, which is an interesting little.
- [41:40]
A
I just work here. Fact.
- [41:42]
B
Right. So it's snowing in North Texas. There's, like, more snow than anybody's ever seen. Like, there they are. They're in Amarillo. Or they've come from Amarillo. And he is at a rest stop, and he sees her kind of. He sees this car, and he's like, I have to get this woman to, like, take me out of here.
- [42:02]
A
Yeah.
- [42:03]
B
And so he slashes a tire in the dark, and then he sort of, like, charms her into letting him, like, change the tire. And then she. Because she is perfect.
- [42:16]
A
Yeah.
- [42:17]
B
And like. And I also think, like, you kind of need. You don't need 112 pages, but you need some part of Julie's backstory in order to understand that, like, this is not the craziest thing anybody's ever done. Like, a weirdo at a restaurant slash, gas station offers to change her tire, and you're like, I'll drive you.
- [42:40]
A
Well, the story he sort of weaves is, I. I have a job interview. And she looks down and she sees his, like, brand new pants and realizes, like. And, like, kind of weaves a story of her own. Like, he is probably desperate to get this job, and his ride fell through, and he, look, he changed my tire. He can't possibly be a bad guy. And so I have take him on his way. I have to agree to drive him. Right.
- [43:08]
B
So Julie's kidnapped because she's an idiot. So they get in the car, they go. And then, like, there's sort of. He's sort of stressed because they're going the wrong direction. Like, he needs to get himself to Colorado to this, like, beautiful house owned by Matt and Meredith from paradise, which is the book before this. So if you're a parrot, a lot of people think paradise is the better of the two. A lot of people feel that way. I mean, there's no accounting for taste. So. And actually, I really do think those. Those guys are super charming. So.
- [43:42]
A
Yeah, it's great. They're great.
- [43:43]
B
Go read that book too. It's great.
- [43:44]
A
But the.
- [43:45]
B
So they're, you know. And they're going the wrong direction. She's going east. He needs to go west. And he's trying to sort of sort out how to do it. He's got a phone number. Who knows? And then she turns on the news. Like, he gets out of the car at one point to, like, make a phone call, and she turns on the radio and, oh, yeah, the phone call he's making.
- [44:04]
A
Everybody is essentially. He has like a. Like a. Basically a guy on standby at the Canadian border who is going to, like, cross the border. And he looks like Zach. He's like a lookalike. And the whole point is, like, this is going to throw everybody off the trail, that he is still on the road in Texas. He will appear to essentially have crossed the border from Detroit into Canada. So he has, like, I have to call and, like, essentially let this guy who's on ice in a hotel room, like, now is the time to go, right? So there's all of these, like, sort of, like, really finely tuned parts of it. And, you know, at this point, and, you know, it's a long enough drive and it's a blizzard, right? That, like, what's happening with Julie is she is constantly like, okay, I. Right. She figures out that he's on the run and who he is and, like, then recognizes him. And then it's like the rest of the drive is her kind of being like. Like, I have to get free, right? Like, he's gonna kill me, essentially, if I. If I don't, you know. And he's sort of saying, like, you won't be in danger. And she's like, yeah, but then why
- [45:07]
B
won't you let me go?
- [45:07]
A
And he's like, well, you'll tell them. Yeah, where I'll not, right? So, you know, the whole thing is he understands, like, I have to get her to this house with me. And then once I make my escape from the house, then she will. She won't be able to tell them anything more about me. But of course, she's like, no, he's taking me to my death, right? So, you know, there's one other kind of important part in the drive, which is she kind of like, he falls asleep in the car.
- [45:34]
B
This is imprinted on me.
- [45:37]
A
Oh, interesting. I bet, right? She's like, okay, he's falling asleep. If I can get into, like, a rest stop with, like, all these truck drivers and sort of slow down enough that I can like, basically, like, commando roll out of the car and scream for help. What he will do is jump into the driver's seat and drive away. And I will be safe. Like, he'll have the car and he'll be gone, but I won't have to worry about it. And so tell us why you imprinted on this scene, Sarah.
- [46:06]
B
Okay, I. Literally, anytime I am outside in the dark in the snow, I think, julie, you're waking everyone up. Why. Why am I like this? Okay, listen, because she amazing. She jumps out of the car, she's rolling, and then she jumps up and she's running toward A batch of, like, if you've ever been at a rest stop, you know, anywhere, I assume. But like in the United States, especially at night. Well, often what happens is these long haul trucks, the guys, they go to sleep and so they like park in the back of these rest stops. And there are usually, you know, at some of the. I envision this as being like one of those big rest stops where it's like, you know, 20 long haul trucks, like 16 wheelers.
- [46:57]
A
Well, and I think it's more like on the side of the road without, like a gas station, without, like, this is just the place where the trucks park.
- [47:04]
B
It's just the rest stop.
- [47:05]
A
Right, exactly.
- [47:06]
B
And so they're all like parked one after another after another. And she gets out and she gets up and she starts to run toward the trucks, screaming like, help, help, help. And he. Because he's so clever. Cause McNaught would never write a not clever hero. Immediately stops the car, gets out after her and starts throwing snowballs at her.
- [47:30]
A
Yeah, right.
- [47:30]
B
Like to make it seem like they're just playing.
- [47:33]
A
Yeah.
- [47:34]
B
And then he, you know, she's like, you know, she's screaming bloody murder. The lights are coming on in all the truck cabs because she's waking everybod up. He catches her basically like.
- [47:47]
A
Yeah.
- [47:48]
B
Topples her, tackles her to the ground while screaming, julie, you're waking everyone up. And all caps everyone and then makes out with her.
- [47:58]
A
Yeah, well, and it's like, basically like out with her. I mean, he has a gun.
- [48:02]
B
Yes. And a guy is coming toward them
- [48:05]
A
and he's like, don't make me hurt him. And she, of course, Julie, hears the pain in his voice.
- [48:13]
B
Oh, my God. And of course. And he's like, you better make this good, because if he comes any closer, I'm not gonna have a choice. And so you better make it look like you want this. And she's like, you're contemptible. I mean, she doesn't say it, but she's like, whatever, I'll never. And he just lays one on her and she's like, oh, no, wait, I do.
- [48:37]
A
Wait, Kissing is amazing. Why didn't I know?
- [48:39]
B
Listen, is it consensual? No. Does she end up loving it? Yes. Am I fine with it? I'm a simple person.
- [48:48]
A
Sure.
- [48:49]
B
It's the 90s.
- [48:53]
A
This week's episode of Fated Mace is brought to you by Megan Quinn, author of Just for the Plot.
- [49:00]
B
Okay, here's another Bay Area Players book from Meghan Quinn. This is is a baseball romance for those of you who are keeping track. And these two are just friends. At least that's what Bauer is sure of. And unfortunately, Bennett Brinkman, San Francisco's baseball golden boy, has other plans. He is focused, he is disciplined, and he is very, very bad at ignoring the one woman he should not want. Because falling for Bauer means falling for his sister's best friend. And the reality is, Bennett's known that this was coming since they were children. He it was absolutely inevitable. They survived childhood gangly elbows, bad haircuts, teenage awkwardness, and he has been sure that this is the woman for him from the beginning. Unfortunately, Bauer knows that that's simply not possible because Bennett is her best friend's brother. And she knows that crossing this line, if it fails, means she she could blow everything up. She could lose her best friend, she could lose this man that she's very into and trying very hard to not be into. Problem is that she's just moved into Bennett's apartment building and suddenly on late nights, just Friends is very, very difficult to keep keep. As a rule, the banter is coming fast, the sparks are coming faster, and we also know what else is coming. Hopefully not so fast.
- [50:29]
A
Well, if you would like to read this friends to lovers, baseball romance that has an age gap and sister's best friend trope, then just for the plot is for you. It's available right now in print, ebook and audio and if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Megan Quinn for sponsoring this week's episode. Julie up until this point has really been like, I'm so concerned with like obviously getting away, I'm in danger. But also like, we really understand that like Julie has like a boyfriend who she just like can't commit to, who's like, you know, she's a 26 year old virgin, whatever. Right? And it's just like she's so concerned with being good and this is the first time in a long time she's ever been with someone who's bad.
- [51:21]
B
She also is like, I have never, like at one point she's like, I've never been that interested in any of this. Like, I understand that this is how it goes.
- [51:32]
A
Yeah.
- [51:32]
B
But like, yeah, I like she like, basically it's like it's Zach is the first time she's ever like felt a feeling and pants feeling and me too. So. So okay, so all this is fine. They finally get in the thing. They get themselves like through the Oklahoma panhandle into Colorado. They're driving up into the mountains. It's snowing. It's snowing. It's snowing. And then they get to the house. And I don't want to, like, overdo, like, a lot of the house stuff, but the, like, preamble to the house. But there is a moment where, like, there's a bridge that's pretty rickety.
- [52:11]
A
Yeah.
- [52:12]
B
And he does a thing that I think every romance hero should do. Like, this is, like, truly the moment. This is the first moment in the book where you see, like, Zack, the romance hero.
- [52:21]
A
Yeah.
- [52:22]
B
Come online. And this is because they're driving in, like, Chevy Blazer. Like, it's huge, right? Like a big, heavy tank of a thing. And they. It's a rickety bridge, and there's basically a question mark. Like, are they going to be able. And it's over. Like, it's like snowing, it's icy. It's the mountains of Colorado. Like, if something goes wrong with this bridge, they're fucked. Like, they're dead. And he's like, get out of the car. And she's like, what do you mean? Like, if I get out of the car, I'm gonna die. You're of hypothermia. She's like. He's like, get out of the car. And then I will drive the car across this car, across the bridge, and then you can walk over. If the bridge collapses, find a narrow space, cross it, and there's a house at the top of this hill filled with food and a phone, and you can call for safety. And she's like, wait, what? And I mean, but it's like the most romance hero.
- [53:25]
A
What a gentleman.
- [53:26]
B
Listen, McNaught fucking knows the job because, like, here we are. This man has been dastardly. Like, we obviously know he didn't kill his wife, but, like, he's not a nice man. And he's like, a man. And then here we are, like, at this moment, and he's like, I'm. I still. I keep you safe.
- [53:48]
A
Yeah.
- [53:48]
B
Right, Right. Amazing. So they get to the house and then you go. The house.
- [53:54]
A
I mean, okay, so first of all, it's like, of course, it's Matt and Meredith's house. And they're like, you know, and Meredith
- [53:58]
B
is the richest woman in the world.
- [54:00]
A
Yes. So she owns.
- [54:01]
B
I mean, Matt's no slouch.
- [54:03]
A
She also owns a company that is now out of business. But.
- [54:07]
B
Yeah. Department store.
- [54:08]
A
A department store. Bancrofts. And she, you know, so they go into this.
- [54:14]
B
She's Reese. She's Reese Winterbourne.
- [54:17]
A
She's Reese Winterbourne.
- [54:18]
B
But, you know, it is Winterbourne who owns. Yeah, yeah. No, it's Harry. Doesn't he. Is he the one?
- [54:22]
A
Winterbourne?
- [54:23]
B
Yes.
- [54:23]
A
Winterbourne's. I don't know. I'm Red Harry. All right, so they get into this house, and of course, it's like this beautiful Colorado mountain house. And, you know, they're like, I'm gonna have to break this window. And, you know, because there's no key. He, like, is literally, like, looking under the doormats and stuff.
- [54:41]
B
And then she finds, like, a house like this does not have a key under the doormat.
- [54:45]
A
You can. And then he finds, like, a flower pot, and he's, like, shaking out all of the dirt, and out comes the key. Right? So they go into this house and now, listen, every romance reader, like, now knows exactly what's going to happen, right? There's going to be this idyllic stretch of time where they are going to be falling in love because it is only one bed, 1990s style, right? Which means it's like this beautiful home. There's, like, you know, only one mansion
- [55:10]
B
in the Colorado mountains, in the Rockies, right?
- [55:13]
A
And she is still. She is still kind of fixated on. And now he goes in and takes all the phones, like, for those. I did think I was like, we'll have to explain this to our younger listeners.
- [55:24]
B
Explain how?
- [55:25]
A
Landlines. These are landlines. And so he, like, goes around and essentially, like, unplugs all the phones and, like, locks them away so she can't call anybody. But there is, like, you know, radio or cable TV or whatever, right? There's wood burning, fireplaces. There's a mansion full of. Or a closet full of beautiful clothes that Julie can wear that magically just fit her perfectly. And the other thing that's really interesting about this is that she is still really fixated on the idea of escaping, but, like, kind of realizes, like, that that is foolish. Like, there's nowhere to go. And she does. She looks for the car key. She looks for whatever until she finds. I don't know if I'm skipping ahead too much. Finds essentially, like, a garage type shed.
- [56:12]
B
Yeah.
- [56:13]
A
That has.
- [56:13]
B
Where I would have gone to, too.
- [56:14]
A
Yeah, yeah. Some snowmobiles in it. And so she is like. And she has also found in a closet, like, again, like, a snowsuit. Right. And so she's like, wait, could I ski out of here? Right. She's, like, sort of trying to think it. And then she finds the snowmobiles, and she's like, oh, I get it. And, you know, there's so it's still, like, tense between them at this point. Right. So. Because.
- [56:36]
B
Well, she's also had a bad morning.
- [56:38]
A
Yes.
- [56:38]
B
Because the news has reported that his buddy.
- [56:41]
A
Yeah.
- [56:42]
B
That Dom. Was not viewed as a hero. Instead, he was beaten so badly at the prison.
- [56:50]
A
Yeah.
- [56:50]
B
That he is in intensive care at the local hospital. And there's been a prison riot. Like, now shit's gone down in the prison, and rightfully so, because that warden is a fucking asshole and all cops are bastards. So.
- [57:03]
A
So, yeah. And I think the part that's, like, really interesting is, like, his really intense response to this, like, is, like, these are the things that lead Julie to think, like, wait, he. He didn't want me to die on the bridge. And here he is so upset about his friend. And, you know, like, maybe there are ways or things that I am essentially, like, there's more to this man than appears, but I still have to get away from him.
- [57:26]
B
He's so handsome. Well, I mean, obviously, this is like a dream in this movie.
- [57:31]
A
And he does his half of the chore, so really, what else can he
- [57:33]
B
want from a man? So she's out there building a snowman. Like a dingling.
- [57:39]
A
I mean, truly, the whole part, literally. And he's like, what? And he, like, watches her, and she's like, I'm gonna build a snowman. And it's. Honestly, that whole scene was a lot.
- [57:49]
B
It's a little questionable, but McNaught had to get her out there, and so. And then she gets on us on a snowmobile, and Julie's like, I'm getting the. Down the mountain.
- [57:57]
A
Yes. In the Rockies. Zach goes after her on his own snowmobile.
- [58:03]
B
Yeah. He figures it out pretty fast. He's like, oh, where'd she go?
- [58:07]
A
And then. And this is the part. Listen, I mean, you love this. Shut up.
- [58:11]
B
You loved it.
- [58:12]
A
Garbage. Loved it.
- [58:14]
B
It was so good because it was contemporary romance. Needs to do this again.
- [58:20]
A
She, like, essentially, like, manages to trick him into thinking that she. Well, she kind of accidentally tricks him into thinking that she's, like, in the river.
- [58:28]
B
Nimrod is what?
- [58:29]
A
Right. Like, it goes flying off of the, like, cliff into, like, the river down below. And she's just like.
- [58:35]
B
But she's caught in the warm embrace of, like, a everglade.
- [58:39]
A
Right. And Jack literally, like, jumps in the fucking river and is shouting for her.
- [58:47]
B
He's going. He, like. He, like, gets in the water.
- [58:50]
A
Yes.
- [58:52]
B
He's gonna die screaming her name.
- [58:55]
A
Yes.
- [58:55]
B
And then she.
- [58:57]
A
He gets out and he's like. He crawls out. He can't find her, you guys. I'm so wrong for this.
- [59:04]
B
No.
- [59:04]
A
He opens up his, like, shirt.
- [59:06]
B
So take me now.
- [59:08]
A
Freeze to death faster.
- [59:09]
B
I'd rather freeze to death than suffer
- [59:13]
A
that Julie died on my watch. And Julie is like, oh, damn, I gotta save this motherfucker now. I do admit I'm really glad McNaught, like, skipped over. I was like, how did this woman get him?
- [59:25]
B
No, shut up. Romance strength.
- [59:26]
A
Shut up.
- [59:27]
B
So I don't care. I don't care how she gets him onto the thing. It's fine. Because the whole time she's, like, making promises to him. Oh, a real favorite one of those moments where I was like, ah, fuck, this is. This is hardwired into me too. And probably ends up in more of my books than I would admit, where, like, one of them is unconscious and the other one is just like, here
- [59:47]
A
are all promising things I'll do.
- [59:49]
B
I'll do everything for you. Right? And she's like, I know you want to fuck me. I know you wanted to fuck me last night when we get home. She would never say fuck everybody. She would never.
- [59:57]
A
She's like, to be in.
- [59:58]
B
There's a lot of making love in this book.
- [60:00]
A
But the content warning. The 90s. That's what it is.
- [60:04]
B
Content warning, making love.
- [60:08]
A
So met. I was literally like, God, people really used to say this. Everybody.
- [60:13]
B
No, come on now.
- [60:15]
A
At least in romance, making love, she's
- [60:18]
B
like, I know you wanted to me last night. By the way. Fire. We're going to get. I will. We're going to get up there.
- [60:24]
A
We're going to.
- [60:25]
B
By the fireplace. I know you're going to like it, but you got to stand up. You got to help me. And Zach's like, yes, okay.
- [60:31]
A
He shuffles into the life like. Like Frankenstein's monster just risen from the dead.
- [60:42]
B
So they get back to the house and then they have, like, real, like, idyllic time. And this is where we start to content war in the 90s. And so many movie star references.
- [60:54]
A
Also the content warning the 90s for, like. Listen, I said, I've been sending Sarah texts for, like, days. Like, content warning. Like a time for athleisure existed. So there's like these parts where she's like.
- [61:08]
B
She dresses. Yeah.
- [61:10]
A
She's like, wearing clothes out of this magical closet. Right? And listen, I want you right now. Everybody close your eyes. I want you to imagine that you are in a mountain house and it's cold outside and it's winter and there's a blizzard. What would you be wearing? I Want you to just, like, picture that in your brain. What would you be wearing? It's. It's definitely like, soft pants, right? It's definitely like fleece. Wait, fleece didn't even exist.
- [61:39]
B
Jen. She wears casual chic, which is. Let me. Let me paint a picture for you. This is the most casual outfit she wears. So casual that McNaught clocks it as casual. And Zach is a little disappointed that it's so casual.
- [61:55]
A
I read the description of this outfit. It was like I would go to a. Like a formal event in the clothes that have just been described if I could find them.
- [62:04]
B
She's wearing, like, a white silk, like, balloon sleeve blouse, a. A trouser that has a cummerbund.
- [62:14]
A
A cummerbund? Yeah, sure.
- [62:16]
B
And a gold chain link belt. And shoes also, like, there's no. And she's like, they're.
- [62:24]
A
I mean, like, these white people have never heard of the idea of not wearing shoes in the house. For sure.
- [62:29]
B
No, they're wearing shoes the whole time.
- [62:31]
A
The whole time. Two pairs of shoes. Shoes on top of. And shoes. I am that white.
- [62:37]
B
And then there's like a whole scene. I do love the scene where she's like, it's the night before. Okay, so we all know, right? So, like. Like, they can't live in this mountain house forever. Okay. So there's like.
- [62:47]
A
Can I also mention. There are often other reference. I'm still on the clothes.
- [62:51]
B
Okay.
- [62:52]
A
Lots of peach dresses, which I feel like I wear a peach dress. Peach was like a big deal. Bows in her hair. Lots of bows.
- [63:00]
B
A lot of, like a Sandy from Greece style hairstyle.
- [63:05]
A
Yes.
- [63:06]
B
In my head a lot.
- [63:08]
A
Yes. Anyway.
- [63:09]
B
With like a little scarf, like in a tie, you guys. I don't know.
- [63:15]
A
Yeah. Anyway. Okay.
- [63:16]
B
You do what you need to do. I personally, I'm, you know, I feel a little like an archaeologist when I'm reading these books. Like this.
- [63:21]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [63:22]
B
This is interesting to me as a historian. It's an artifact. I mean, there is sort of a very famous. There's a famous story about an author who I will not name publicly.
- [63:34]
A
Who, Like, Unless we already said this back in season two.
- [63:37]
B
Sorry, I don't think we did.
- [63:38]
A
Okay. I don't. I don't think.
- [63:41]
B
I certainly would never have said this out loud or their name. We don't. I won't. I won't name them publicly. But apparently when they turn in drafts, like, they're such a big deal that when they turn in drafts, like, they're just basically like, describe what she's wearing.
- [63:56]
A
Yeah.
- [63:56]
B
And Then, like, they have the 22 year old.
- [63:59]
A
Good job, good job.
- [64:00]
B
Describe what she's wearing. Because this author is so old that,
- [64:06]
A
like, she'd be like, whatever's on sale at Talbot's as opposed to an Eileen Fisher ensemble.
- [64:15]
B
So anyway, so all of this. So yes, there's a lot of weird clothing happening here. There is a very, very sweet night. Okay? But this is getting back to the. Let's brass tax this. Getting back to the.
- [64:25]
A
We're an hour in. Sarah. There's no.
- [64:27]
B
Sorry, everybody. We're an hour in. We're in 40% of the way through
- [64:30]
A
the book, but we're.
- [64:32]
B
So we're an hour in and he is, you know, like, he's. So he has kidnapped her. They are in the mountains. He is an escaped convict, a convicted murderer.
- [64:43]
A
Yeah.
- [64:44]
B
In the mountains in Colorado. And, like, everyone's fucking looking for him. And he's got like, one of the most famous faces in the world. So, like, we know this cannot, at some point, this is going to have to end. Now, Julie has fallen hard for him and like. Like, he's fallen for her too. Like, they are super into each other. They've talked about their lives. Like, they've, they've, like, they've like. He's told her about her. He's told her things like about his childhood that he's never told anybody. Like, it is. They. They have romanced here. Yes. And she's kind of like, you're gonna end this. Like, this is gonna be over. I can't come with you. Right?
- [65:27]
A
Yeah.
- [65:27]
B
And he's like, yeah, you can't come with me. Like, this is the end.
- [65:30]
A
You'd never see your family again.
- [65:32]
B
There's no way you can possibly work ever. And so he's like, I will tell you the night before it's time for you to go. And she clocks it the afternoon of that, and she's like, it's tomorrow, isn't it? And he's like, yes. And then. Oh, and more importantly, as part of this, like, she has become, like, very, very intensely interested in who might have actually committed this crime.
- [65:59]
A
Sure. Because here's the thing. He's like, you're the only person who believes that I didn't do it.
- [66:05]
B
He's desperate. He's desperate for someone to believe him. And she.
- [66:07]
A
And she's like, I do believe you, but what that actually means is the murderer is still out there. Right. Because somebody put real bullets in the gun. This isn't one of those situations where it was, you know, just like that. Alec Baldwin situation where it was really, like, an accident.
- [66:22]
B
It's true, right?
- [66:23]
A
It's a murder. Somebody did it.
- [66:25]
B
That Alec Baldwin situation was very tragic. Very, very tragic. But if you don't think. The first thing I thought about when I read that was this book, like, of course. I'm so sorry, everyone, but I knew everything that had to have happened.
- [66:37]
A
Sometimes there's real life thick happening about a book we loved. And that's what that was. So anyway, that story is, like, essentially. Right. Like, so I think the part that's really interesting about their goodbye. Right. Is she's gonna drive down the mountain and he.
- [66:51]
B
But the date.
- [66:52]
A
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [66:54]
B
So they decide they're gonna have a date.
- [66:56]
A
Yeah.
- [66:56]
B
And so they dress up and she wears this crazy cashmere dress. It's bizarre. But which. It has no back. I'm like, how does a sweater dress work this way? Like, what's the structural integrity? Doesn't matter. Not.
- [67:08]
A
Doesn't matter. Romance dress. Romance cashmere.
- [67:13]
B
And he's wearing a suit. And they're so. It's perfect. And they dance and it's just perfect and wonderful. But anyway. But yes, go on. So then she's like. And so he basically is like, you have to go. And then he, like, white fangs her. He's like, you gotta. Harry and the Hendersons. Her, like, he's like, you have to go. And she's like, I love you. I love you. And he's like, oh, my God, that's the greatest thing. Like, nobody's ever loved me before. I've never felt so loved. I've never loved this way. Like, whatever. And she's like, I love you. And she's like, please tell me you love me. And it's. Instead of telling her, he's like, you silly little girl.
- [67:50]
A
Yeah.
- [67:50]
B
You just can't tell the difference between great sex and love.
- [67:53]
A
Yeah. And he doesn't really say, like, you're.
- [67:56]
B
I mean, he.
- [67:57]
A
He's basically like, look, this was great for what it was, but it's not love. I mean, he's not. I will say he's not. Like, you're an idiot. Exactly. Right. Like, it's just like, this was great sex for me, and we had a great time, but, like, that's all it was. Like, you know, it was tender and it was emotional, but, like, there can't be anything more. And so when she is, like, going back.
- [68:18]
B
I don't know that I read that that way. I mean, I guess I thought he was a little meaner. Not mean, but not.
- [68:23]
A
But mean. I Think, like, comparing.
- [68:25]
B
You don't know the difference between good sex and love is a pretty, like, harsh thing to say.
- [68:30]
A
Yes. But I guess I would say, like,
- [68:32]
B
for sure he's kind. He's. He's kind.
- [68:34]
A
Yeah. It's like, patronizing.
- [68:36]
B
He's not like Rhett Butler. He's kind.
- [68:38]
A
Yes, I would say it's patronizing is how I read it. Like, right. Like, you know, like, kind of pats her on the head. And of course, like, that's gonna be again. Because he knows her well enough, you know, that's how he's gonna get to her. Right. So anyway, so, yeah, I mean, it is mean, but it wasn't like, I just wanted to. You.
- [68:57]
B
No, no.
- [68:58]
A
Right.
- [68:58]
B
Like, Harry and the Hendersons are like, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [69:02]
A
So he sends her off and, you know, he gets picked up. Picked up by a helicopter, and he's gonna go to South America and she's gonna.
- [69:08]
B
You know.
- [69:08]
A
And he's also like, we can never.
- [69:09]
B
Oh. And she doesn't know anything. He's basically like, tell you anything.
- [69:14]
A
Because that way. Because they're going to question you, and he's.
- [69:16]
B
Plausible deniability.
- [69:17]
A
Yeah. You should be as honest as you can. There's one thing I'm going to ask you to lie about, which I can't remember what it is, and. Oh, it's the house.
- [69:25]
B
You can tell them, right. You can't.
- [69:27]
A
You have to say, like, I found the key in the flower pot.
- [69:29]
B
The house was repaired.
- [69:31]
A
Like, they didn't know.
- [69:33]
B
So anyway, he.
- [69:35]
A
And now here's the thing, everybody. This is, I don't know, halfway through the book.
- [69:39]
B
Halfway. You're halfway through the fucking book. Now, listen, listen. This is where I. I mean, they just don't write books like this anymore. None of us do. This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Frayed Pages by Wattpad Books, publishers of Breakup for Two by EM Wilson.
- [69:57]
A
All right, so, Sarah, the setting is a magical New York evening at hot new restaurant that is the place to be seen. And we have two couples, like, poised to take the next step. Liam has moved across the country and is about to propose to Natalie, the love of his life. He's gonna surprise her at dinner. And on the other side of the restaurant, we have Bri, who thought she was about to have a romantic evening with her boyfriend, David. However, instead of two beautiful, perfect proposals, we have two very public breakups. Bri found out that David is cheating. On the other side of the restaurant, Natalie drops a bomb of her own that that she wants to break up. And suddenly Liam and Bri are signal are both single and decide to drown their sorrows together.
- [70:42]
B
Perfect.
- [70:42]
A
Only to find that sparks are flying between them. And maybe the worst day of their life could be the best thing that's ever happened to both of them.
- [70:51]
B
Ooh, I love this beginning. You can find Breakup for two right now in print or ebook, wherever you get your books. And if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title to learn. Learn more. Thanks to E.M. wilson and Freed Pages by Wattpad Books for sponsoring this week's episode.
- [71:13]
A
These two dumbasses are not going to be on page together for, like, a while.
- [71:18]
B
So funny that you say that, Jen, because I am, like, tight. I. My chest is tight at this point.
- [71:26]
A
Yeah.
- [71:27]
B
And doesn't let up. Like, somehow, you know, you just said they're not together on page, but, man, it feels like they are. Like, it feels like.
- [71:36]
A
It really doesn't everybody. You were like, how are these people not on page together for 30 more percent of the book? Really? Yes. I mean, that's not how I feel
- [71:44]
B
because I feel like they're both thinking about each other so much.
- [71:48]
A
Yeah. I think, you know, this is the part where I would say, like, for me, as, like, a person who does not have, like, this intense memory of the book.
- [71:57]
B
Yeah, of course.
- [71:58]
A
I really did find myself wondering, like, okay, how. And again, I think, okay, there are old books that you read and love that you sort of grandfather in. And then there are older. You go back and read a book that, you know, you read, but you don't have that intense, like, kind of relationship with. And I will tell you that, like, that percent for me.
- [72:19]
B
Interesting.
- [72:20]
A
Was not. I didn't. I, like, listen, I tore through it. But I also was like, when are these dumbasses gonna get back together? I have to be able to look forward to this because I'm a little annoyed.
- [72:31]
B
Fair.
- [72:32]
A
You know what I mean?
- [72:32]
B
Okay, so let me just briefly. So the introduction, the reason that a lot goes on in here, first of all.
- [72:37]
A
Yeah, a lot.
- [72:38]
B
There's like a second. There are two secondary romances.
- [72:41]
A
Good lord.
- [72:42]
B
There's the secondary romance between the brother. Like, Julie has a brother who was married and then divorced and now.
- [72:50]
A
Sure. Is just a silly little fool.
- [72:53]
B
Exactly. And so. And listen, I could do without. I will. I will say I do Skip Ted and Catherine, too. I don't give a shit about those two. Like, get your shit together. Was one of you in jail? Were you kidnapped at a rest stop? Then I don't want anything to do with this nonsense. Like, figure your shit out. They're having, like, a very real, like, second chance romance. And I just don't have time for it.
- [73:16]
A
I also think, like, okay, like, they got together when, you know, Catherine was, like, 19 or something crazy. And then got, like, married and divorced, and now they're getting back together again. And I'm supposed to believe that, like, Catherine is now, like, a mature young woman of, like, 24. And I think, like, part of me is just like, well, man, like, listen, I agree.
- [73:34]
B
I think Ted and Catherine could go and. Okay, that's too long. That's too much. I will seed. Ted and Katherine. There's also, like, the noisy neighbor and the taxi driver in town who are older and they don't. They're not really relevant to anything. And they don't actually have a ton of page count, but they are, like integers. And that's kind of charming. And then there's like. And then at some point, there's this
- [73:58]
A
fucking FBI agent that falls in love with Julie.
- [74:01]
B
This is the biggest piece is there is an FBI agent who's in love with Julie, and he's in love with Julie from, like, it's like, love at first sight.
- [74:08]
A
The minute he sees her, Paul.
- [74:10]
B
And Paul is like. Here's the other thing that I think is really interesting and I think is sort of transformational for a. For Judith Mc. For the time.
- [74:20]
A
Yeah.
- [74:21]
B
Is he's not an asshole.
- [74:24]
A
Right.
- [74:25]
B
That's true. At no point is this man. This man does not pressure Julie at all. He's basically like, I know you had a thing for this man.
- [74:33]
A
Right.
- [74:33]
B
I know you were obsessed with him, and I'm willing to wait.
- [74:37]
A
Yeah.
- [74:38]
B
And then when it comes time for the two of them to get back together after, like, another whole round of holy shit, black moment devastation, it's Paul who is like, I am going to.
- [74:53]
A
Yeah.
- [74:53]
B
Like, make this happen in such a way where he could have been an asshole and he just wasn't.
- [74:59]
A
Oh. But see, he thought that he was going to, like.
- [75:02]
B
I know what he thought.
- [75:03]
A
Okay, well, he wasn't, like, sure. That's true.
- [75:06]
B
He could have fabricated evidence. He could have, like. He could have done any number of things that. Like, in the hands of a different bastards.
- [75:13]
A
Exactly. Except Paul.
- [75:14]
B
I mean, I don't know that I would go that far because I do think Paul is pretty shitty.
- [75:19]
A
But the.
- [75:20]
B
I mean, like, at. In his career. But, like, in the hands of a different J. Yeah. Like, Jude Devereaux would have made Paul like.
- [75:27]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [75:28]
B
Sociopath.
- [75:29]
A
Sure. Absolutely.
- [75:30]
B
Anyway.
- [75:31]
A
Absolutely.
- [75:31]
B
So then there's this guy, and he's sort of into Julie. And then there's this other FBI agent, and he's like, you're an idiot. She's definitely still in love with that movie star, and she's definitely gonna run.
- [75:40]
A
Yeah.
- [75:42]
B
And then we discover that Zach. So Zach has basically said, I'll never write to you. We'll never be in touch.
- [75:46]
A
But then all, you know, the only thing Zach can think about is, oh, she's.
- [75:50]
B
Of course.
- [75:51]
A
Of course. What if she's pregnant?
- [75:52]
B
What if she's pregnant? And also, like, he's like, I never told her I loved her.
- [75:56]
A
Yeah.
- [75:57]
B
So he writes this truly unhinged letter to her.
- [76:01]
A
You guys, it is the greatest letter
- [76:04]
B
ever written in romance. Shut up, everybody. About persuasion.
- [76:08]
A
You don't understand.
- [76:09]
B
Okay.
- [76:10]
A
Fair. Until he says, if you are pregnant, take the baby to my grandmother, who is crazy, but a woman of responsibility, and she'll take it because, you know, he's really worried that. Oh, my God. Listen. Content a lot and a lot. Listen. If there's one thing I, like, really hate in this book, it's like the. This is the whole, like, only bad girls have abortions. Right. Like, if it would be devastating for you. Right. And there is, like, a real way. When I think about, like, the way that I'm, like, it's like, honestly, like, the. I don't. I love romance. Everybody knows that. I don't think I have to prove that to anybody, but there are ways that, like, romance really disappoints me. And I think it is these 80s and 90s authors who really, like, leaned so fucking hard into, yes, abortion was possible, but surely you would never do that. Right? And I found that part. It's, like, sort of persistent in the text. It would break Julie's heart. It'd be so devastating. Right. Like, she shouldn't have to live like this. Her reputation. But, like, I mean. And I'm just kind of like, oh, brother.
- [77:17]
B
But that's really interesting because I thought. I, of course, noticed, too, lots of reference to abortion. A couple things that I would just, like, say. I was impressed by the use of the word.
- [77:29]
A
Yeah. They were not dancing around what it was at all.
- [77:32]
B
This is rape and abortion. Like, without very matter of fact, without, like, no sugar coating.
- [77:39]
A
Yeah.
- [77:40]
B
I felt that. What was interesting about it, what I sort of noticed was anytime it was referenced, it was like, abortion or the shame of being a single mother.
- [77:52]
A
Yeah.
- [77:52]
B
Right. And I actually. So I guess while I totally understand and I like There was never. There's never a moment where Julie. Where Julie's like, maybe I'll terminate.
- [78:01]
A
Well, she's never. She's not pregnant, everybody, so she doesn't have to.
- [78:03]
B
Actually, it doesn't matter. There's no secret baby, but. Yeah, but there is. But, like, Julie never thinks it.
- [78:09]
A
No.
- [78:10]
B
But my perception of the text was actually not that McNaught thought it was shaming McNaught's. The thing that I kept rubbing up on was, like, the shame of single motherhood.
- [78:21]
A
Yeah. Right. Especially for. Here's a woman who's like, I just want women to learn how to read.
- [78:26]
B
Yeah.
- [78:27]
A
There's, like, a lot of complicated feelings about that. Yeah.
- [78:29]
B
Content warning, 1990s. Like, I. I don't really know. I just feel like, for me, I was like, oh, I don't.
- [78:36]
A
I think what it is. It's like, okay, so there's these two things, and I would also.
- [78:40]
B
I wish she sort of left the baby situation. Like, I wish she. I love that. Like, I love the way the baby situation works out.
- [78:46]
A
Yeah. It's what is driving Zach in some ways.
- [78:49]
B
But I hate that. It's like, yes, the grandmother thing is unhinged. Like, there are a bunch of things about it that are.
- [78:54]
A
I think I'm gonna, like, flag one more thing, like, big time. Content warning, 90s. Which is. So it turns out that one of the reasons the grandmother hated Zach is she thinks that Zach has, like, killed his brother. And what Zach essentially discloses is my brother, you know, he was 18 or 19, and he was gay, and he knew that he would never be accepted, and he. And he kills himself. And I found myself really, like, thinking about this because there was part of me that, like, was. I will admit to you, Sarah, I'm a little ashamed of this. Like, was really quick to, like, kind of write this off. Like, there's no way she should have put this in here. And then I remembered, like, to this day in 2026, the most queer children. Teenagers, are four times more likely to consider or commit suicide than any than, like, you know, sort of straight teenagers or CIS teenagers. And I found myself really thinking, like, okay, I'm not sure I love the way it was played.
- [79:54]
B
No, this is my thing about her.
- [79:56]
A
Right.
- [79:56]
B
Like, there's. It feels.
- [79:58]
A
Because it feels dated. That's the part that feels. It's like a plot device, that it's not really a heartfelt thing. The same way it would be now, but also, it's on page.
- [80:08]
B
Did you notice that there's another character who's Gay, too. And, like, and it's just like, he is in love. He was in love with a man. Like, Right. It's sort of described as, like, in Hollywood.
- [80:20]
A
He was in love with him. That's fine.
- [80:22]
B
Like, it's just the way that it is.
- [80:24]
A
Right. And it was really interesting to me to sort of, like, I don't know, like, I guess I would just say that, like, content warning.
- [80:32]
B
You should be aware of it.
- [80:33]
A
Right? You, you should know that it's in there. But I did find myself thinking, like, I was so. I'm so used to, like, romance writer romances now, essentially, like, sort of steering clear of, like, making any kind of statement about trauma and trauma and how
- [80:51]
B
hard it is for these people to grow up in these communities. Right.
- [80:54]
A
Like, so you're a rich boy in this community, and you know how judgmental your grandmother is, and you know that she would never accept you. And, you know, like, there's pressure to, like, be dating girls and taking them out and marry young. And this young man was like, I cannot. And then here's your brother trying to talk you out of it. And then instead, essentially, like, the, your death gets pinned on him. And I found myself. And Zach, like, takes responsibility because he is also, like, sort of more invested with his grandfather in, like, protecting the grandmother's feelings about why it happened than being honest about her being a big part of, like, why it happened.
- [81:34]
B
Yeah.
- [81:35]
A
You know, and I found myself really, really. And I know this is, like, a huge digression from the book itself, like, really thinking hard about, you know, like, what is this book telling us? Not only about, like, okay, how what was shameful or not at that time, but also, like, we like to think that it's different because it's 30 years later, but, like, we still have so many queer teenagers who feel that they have no choice but to end their lives because their families won't accept them. And you know what? Like, I was fucking pissed reading that. I was like, how dare, how dare you not accept your own children? I, I, I don't know. Like, I just really found myself spending a lot of time thinking about that, and I don't think I probably did at all when I read. Read this.
- [82:18]
B
No, I'm sure you didn't.
- [82:20]
A
I had no idea that, like, this was identifying a, like, persistent real issue of, like, what happens when you're a teenager and you know that your family is not going to accept you for who you are.
- [82:32]
B
Ugh.
- [82:33]
A
Anyway, sorry.
- [82:33]
B
And I also think I would say I'm not sure Judith McNaught was. Knew. She was talking about, like, a.
- [82:39]
A
Right. A problem. Right. Like a real societal issue.
- [82:43]
B
This is where I sort of, I think, feel like these books and her specifically, she is Herky jerky in the way that she. Like, in Tender Triumph, this is another sort of digression. But in Tender Triumph, which, again, I would not. It's a debut. It's not a very good book, but, like, she spends a lot. The hero is from Puerto Rico, born in Puerto Rico. And there's a whole, like, back and forth about how Puerto Rican. Puerto Rican people are American. Like, if you're born in Puerto Rico, you are American, you carry American, you're an American citizen. And she does this whole thing. And I was like, holy shit. Like, this is her. Like, she taught a lot of people in 1980, whatever. Probably about that. But, like, it feels in the text, like it's sort of like, oh, there's like, maybe it feels maybe a little racist. Like, it's.
- [83:44]
A
It's a.
- [83:45]
B
It's a very difficult. Herky jerky way that some of these books exist in time. Like on the. On, like, reading back.
- [83:53]
A
Yeah. Like, I'm not trying to give McNaught necessarily credit for putting it on paper. No. But also at the same time, like, it. As a reader now, you're like, these are still problems that are so real and are intensifying. Right. In some ways. Right. Like, here it is, like, we just.
- [84:09]
B
It is a Texas.
- [84:11]
A
And Julie could get an abortion. And guess what? In 2026, Julie could not. Yeah. Right.
- [84:17]
B
Yeah. So I think, like, I don't know. I. Yeah, I don't. I also am not, like, I'm not like, oh, let's give gold stars to Judith McNaught. But I do think, like, this is one of those examples. We talk so much about romance and, like, how it reflects, like, the domestic and, like, women in the world. And, like.
- [84:34]
A
Yeah.
- [84:35]
B
And I think all these are examples of, like, she could have easily left all this out.
- [84:40]
A
Yeah. Right.
- [84:41]
B
And doesn't. Right. Or she could have been, like. It could have been a throwaway thing about Zack's brother. And instead they, like, actually do kind of circle the drain on it.
- [84:50]
A
Yeah.
- [84:51]
B
It's not like, it's not precise. It's not elegant, but it's like she's.
- [84:55]
A
Yeah. It's there saying something, doing something.
- [84:57]
B
I don't know what.
- [84:58]
A
I don't know what, but it's. It's doing it anyway. I think, like I said, for me, I'm like, it's regardless of what it was trying to do. Now it's like, what are we doing now with it as readers? Right.
- [85:08]
B
And this is what we're doing with it, Jen.
- [85:10]
A
Yeah.
- [85:10]
B
Yeah, right.
- [85:11]
A
Like. Yeah.
- [85:12]
B
I don't think you or I went through this text and just like, let it wash over us. No. So in fact.
- [85:18]
A
Yeah, exactly. I think the thing for me at this point, like, listen, this 30%, is a lot of, like, pushing pull between them and kind of like that, like, what is it going to mean for them to be together? And in like, what way?
- [85:31]
B
Because she's going to have to leave.
- [85:33]
A
Yeah.
- [85:34]
B
So she basically is like, she goes to see Matt and Meredith and Matt has access to Zach. And because Matt's been like, making Zach a billionaire quietly from his office in Chicago. And so. Which is where money comes from.
- [85:48]
A
So of course, money and crime, that's all we're known for. It's a Chicago way.
- [85:54]
B
So Matt, she goes to see Matt and Meredith and. Or no, they come to see her because she does a press conference where it's clear that she's just like. I mean, head over heels. Right. And they come to see her and Matt is like, I have a letter for you from Zach and I'm supposed to find out if you're pregnant. And she's like, you tell Zach that if he wants to be involved in our baby's life, he has to let me come and be with him.
- [86:26]
A
Yeah. And what?
- [86:27]
B
She's. She's not pregnant. Everybody is like, she's being tricky. And Meredith blocks it right away, but doesn't say a word.
- [86:33]
A
Sure. Because she's like, I would do the same thing to be with my man.
- [86:36]
B
Because she. Who. She probably did do weirder stuff in her book. And so. So this letter is like. Like we said, just like, why? Crazy, but also like, I mean, just unhinged. Like, written like Judith McNaught drank a bunch of tequila and then wrote this
- [86:51]
A
letter, which she loves so much. It gets repeated several times.
- [86:55]
B
I know. Listen, I don't care. I love you so much. So. Okay. Every time I think I wanna.
- [87:00]
A
You know what I found? I will admit it's funny. I was kind of like speed reading through this. I had a really. The scene where then she's like, I'm gonna go to Mexico and be with him.
- [87:13]
B
Yeah. So then he calls her school and he's like. And they make a plan. She's gonna go to Mexico. And then go ahead.
- [87:19]
A
Well, and this is the part where then she makes the mistake of going to see his grandmother. Right. Because she's Like, I read the letter and it said, you should take it. And maybe he needs to reconcile with his grandmother.
- [87:30]
B
Now, listen, this is all the part where I. If I were writing it, I would cut all of this out.
- [87:38]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [87:39]
B
And then. Because then what happens is the grandmother says he killed his brother.
- [87:44]
A
Yes. And Julie apparently is just, like, really willing to go with whatever latest version of Zack she's heard of.
- [87:52]
B
And then she gets home. Yeah. Right. And then she gets home and somebody who looks like Zach has been terrorizing all the people who are on the movie set when the wife died. And the guy who shot the gun originally by accident in the. On the set is killed.
- [88:12]
A
Murdered. Yeah.
- [88:13]
B
And so. And everybody's like, it's Zach. Zach's back. Zach's killing everybody. Yeah.
- [88:18]
A
And Julie does not think, like, no, he's in Mexico. How is he in Los Angeles? Like, no, she just is like, I. You know, and the other thing is, like, her brother, who's a sheriff, and the. Paul, you know, essentially convince her that, like, her job is to, like, bring Zach in.
- [88:33]
B
Yeah. She's basically, like, being gaslit by a bunch of people. And also, like, suddenly is having her loyalty. Like, her loyalty is shaky, right?
- [88:42]
A
Yeah.
- [88:43]
B
And it's shaky for, like. I think. I think there are a few reasons. I think McNaught, I think this is a beat of the story that doesn't need to exist. But, like, we're in here now. And, like, now we just, like, she started 12,000 plots and, like, can't finish them all all at once.
- [88:56]
A
So we're here.
- [88:57]
B
We are.
- [88:58]
A
Right.
- [88:58]
B
I think she really wanted the scene. She wanted the grandmother to, like, be relevant in some way. I mean, there are a lot of things, like, writing wise, that I'm like. I don't know. Like, I don't know that I would do this, because fundamentally, this becomes a problem when. Now I do believe that this is one of the greatest, like, climactic scenes in romance. And I still. I stand by it.
- [89:22]
A
The one in the airport, you mean?
- [89:23]
B
Yeah, in the airport. And it's not climactic.
- [89:26]
A
I read it. It's probably like, at 65%, it's like.
- [89:29]
B
It's like 80%, but. Yeah. And. Well, because then there's a bunch of, like, nonsense at home.
- [89:36]
A
There's so much. I mean. Yeah.
- [89:37]
B
Like, it's what happens when you roll out too much carpet, and then you need to, like, figure out how to handle it.
- [89:43]
A
So.
- [89:43]
B
Okay, so they. So basically she tells the FBI. She's like, he's gonna meet me In Mexico. Don't hurt him.
- [89:52]
A
Don't hurt him.
- [89:53]
B
Don't hurt him. But, like, I guess he's crazy. Like, I guess I've fallen in love with a murderer and don't hurt him. And so they use her as a mole. Of course.
- [90:05]
A
Yeah. Like as a right or not a
- [90:06]
B
mole, like a bait. She's bait. And so they go down, they get in the airport in Mexico City. Zach is coming toward her.
- [90:14]
A
Yeah.
- [90:14]
B
And.
- [90:16]
A
And like, somehow the warden is there.
- [90:18]
B
Everybody's there. Everybody's on site.
- [90:20]
A
Jurisdiction.
- [90:21]
B
Fine. Everybody's there.
- [90:23]
A
The sheriff, her brother is there.
- [90:25]
B
And then the Mexican police. Right. Who are in charge.
- [90:28]
A
Yeah.
- [90:29]
B
And they take Zach down. And he initially thinks that it's just him. Like they. They followed her. And if they were now on the.
- [90:39]
A
On the.
- [90:39]
B
Like, listen, probably if you were editing this, you'd be like, why doesn't. Why don't they just follow her?
- [90:48]
A
Yeah, right, right. Exactly.
- [90:49]
B
And then he can still not believe, like, can still believe that she. Yeah, whatever. Right. And you could still have the warden say his terrible thing. Like, whatever. It doesn't matter. Point is, he. He thinks that they have just followed her. And then the warden searches him, finds a ring box.
- [91:09]
A
Yeah.
- [91:10]
B
Approaches her and says, thank you so much for your help.
- [91:13]
A
Yeah. Right. And Zach hears it and he's convinced she's betrayed him.
- [91:17]
B
Gives him. Gives her the ring box. Beautiful wedding ring in it. She loses her mind.
- [91:23]
A
Mind. Right. Cuz they're beating the. Out of him, beating him up.
- [91:27]
B
They're retreating. And she's like, they're hurting him. They're hurting him. She's screaming, she's fighting. She scratches the. Out of the warden, kicks him in the nets twice.
- [91:36]
A
Now, to give McNaugh credit, she really did anticipate everybody being nosy and recording this. So, you know, it's 1993, and some people have their camcorders out and you know, and so. And this is the part like, listen, it is. It is sort of. It's devastating. Right. Because then we get months of Julie kind of being like, I'm so sad. I betrayed him.
- [91:58]
B
She has sent him letters, they come back and he goes back to jail,
- [92:02]
A
and he goes back to jail. But then, you know, they discover that he didn't do it somehow, and he's freed from jail.
- [92:09]
B
Okay. Jen's tired at this point. I am.
- [92:12]
A
I wouldn't.
- [92:12]
B
I get it.
- [92:13]
A
I get it.
- [92:14]
B
Because there's too much.
- [92:15]
A
They get together at any point soon.
- [92:18]
B
I know.
- [92:19]
A
And I think, like, there's the months
- [92:20]
B
where he's like, she's got to resolve the mystery, too.
- [92:23]
A
Yeah. Like, living his best life in la. Kind of free. He's been. He's a free man.
- [92:28]
B
And he's back to being cold. Because the very first thing we ever learn about Zach in the prologue is that you get one chance with him and, like, once you're done, you're done. You never get a second chance. And so Meredith and Matt are like. Meredith's like, he loves her and she loves him. What the fuck? And Matt's like, this is Zach. Like, she doesn't get another choice.
- [92:52]
A
Right.
- [92:52]
B
And then Paul is like, how do I win Julie? And Julie's brother is like, well, the only way you can win Julie is if she, like, gets closure with this guy who she's obsessed with. And he's like, great, I'll get her closure. Like a ding dong. And he takes a videotape of the press conference. A videotape of the like, of.
- [93:11]
A
Because, of course, the other thing. There's no social media. There's no YouTube.
- [93:15]
B
No.
- [93:15]
A
It's all on. Right. Zach missed the first press conference. He never saw that. And there's no way for him to see that.
- [93:22]
B
And he has a videotape of, like, an alternate view of the arrest.
- [93:26]
A
Sure.
- [93:26]
B
In. In Mexico.
- [93:27]
A
Which, of course, both of them were so devastated by that neither of them knew what was really happened to the other one until they see this, you know, miraculous vh.
- [93:35]
B
Jen, I don't like your tone.
- [93:43]
A
I was literally like, if YouTube existed, this plot could have been over, like, a hundred pages ago.
- [93:50]
B
And then Julie has a letter.
- [93:52]
A
Wait, hold on. I will say this. Yeah. I did think a lot about. You can really do a lot more with people when there's no cell phone. Yeah.
- [94:00]
B
I mean, I think telephones. Zach has one. Zach has one. The only cellular telephone that exists in time.
- [94:10]
A
Yeah.
- [94:11]
B
And then Matt and Meredith, it's. I mean, like, whatever. Paul gives the video to them and they watch it and they're like, holy. We were wrong. We were wrong. She didn't. Because they, of course, thought that she had planned it the. The whole time. And then it turned out they did not. She did not. She was in love with him the whole time. She's still in love with him. She's obsessed with him. And then Zach sees it and he is broken by how broken she is.
- [94:39]
A
Yeah.
- [94:39]
B
And then he takes Matt's private jet and he flies to Texas and he goes to see her at the Christmas pageant or whatever it is, and then he tells her in front of everyone that he loves Her. And then they go home to her house. And that is the end of the book. Book. Except Jen is gonna say there's like
- [94:57]
A
a hundred more pages.
- [95:00]
B
I mean, then it really does. Like. I will admit.
- [95:03]
A
You were like.
- [95:04]
B
That's where I stop.
- [95:06]
A
They were like, I'm in the doldrums. Like, literally, like. Right. I will say there. The part that was really funny is. Even though that's true, it did make me laugh. There's like a whole thing where, like, Zach, who is 36 years old, a grown ass man, has to like, literally sit down with her father and hear him, like, give him the business and basically, like, completely paint him into a corner. Where Zach's like, I'm gonna take her to Vegas. We're gonna get married tonight. Her father is a minister. And her father was like, do you think it is great. Do you think that she would ever consider herself married if I did not. If I was not the one who married her?
- [95:38]
B
And he's like a.
- [95:40]
A
He's like, God damn it.
- [95:41]
B
And then they make the deal, right?
- [95:43]
A
Like, where the.
- [95:44]
B
The father has. Basically, it comes. This is very funny. It comes out that in this small Texas town. Yeah, right. There is somehow.
- [95:52]
A
There's only one minister, but fine. Yeah.
- [95:54]
B
And it's also like, at some point, like, he's staying in a hotel. And the town is something called like, Snake Venom Texas or something.
- [96:01]
A
Obviously perfect.
- [96:03]
B
The dad is like, has basically convinced every man in this town before. Before marriage to go celibate to, like, not. They. They can't touch for, like the month before the wedding. And. And so every single man in this town is like.
- [96:21]
A
And they're all like, no one can tell him.
- [96:22]
B
Buying him drinks, like, being nice to him. And he's like, losing his mind. And it's all very charming. I mean, at this point. What's interesting about it, though, to go back to pacing. Right. Because I do think in this case. So you can see McNaught here sort of really like, trying to figure out what she wants to be writing. Because after this, the next contemporary is. It's like a romantic suspense.
- [96:50]
A
Yeah.
- [96:50]
B
And so you can sort of see romantic suspense edging up into this text, right?
- [96:55]
A
With like, the murder and who did it and all that.
- [96:56]
B
Also, like, all the text beforehand, all the text afterhand afterward. Right. Like, it feels like the sort of first hundred pages are like, she's like, exploring potentially just like straight up commercial fiction. And then the last hundred pages, she's also kind of doing this thing where it's like. And now there's a resolution. And we see them experiencing each other and life in this town. Right?
- [97:25]
A
And you know what? This is what Zach needed because he's always a movie star. And everyone wants these innocent, good Texans only want to just, like, hang out with Julie, come make her happy. Right?
- [97:36]
B
Right. But if you're, like, writing a straight up romance novel, right? You lift page 100 to page, you know, 350 of this book or 400 of this book. This is a long book, everybody.
- [97:46]
A
It is a long book.
- [97:47]
B
And then. And you've got yourself, like, you really don't need anything after he goes and he professes his love in front of the kitchen. The, you know, Christmas party.
- [97:56]
A
Yeah. That's it. That's the end. And instead we get. You know, I mean, it's funny. Like, there are some, like, really funny parts of it, right? Like, there's this really funny thing where, like, you know, like, his. Her dad's like, I'm gonna pay for the wedding. And Zach's like, okay, I'm gonna, like, pretend to let him pay because he has no idea how much things actually cost. Right? But I mean, it's just all very. And, you know, listen, like, I think there's a way, like, the grandmother comes back, and Julie's like, you have to reconcile with her. And I'm like, bitch, no, you do not. Right? And I think, like, that's the kind of stuff, like, the. The tying up every loose end part of it does feel.
- [98:31]
B
Yeah. He goes to meet the women who she like.
- [98:34]
A
Yes.
- [98:35]
B
You know, there's just.
- [98:37]
A
I will say, I will acknowledge movie stars come to their wedding.
- [98:40]
B
This is where obviously, like, my own personal, just, like, love of this book.
- [98:45]
A
Yeah.
- [98:47]
B
I mean, I am. I am unable to see its flaws in a lot of ways. Right. Also, I don't read.
- [98:55]
A
Sure.
- [98:55]
B
You're, like, the third of this book I don't read.
- [98:58]
A
Right.
- [98:58]
B
And. And it's because. But that's not to say that it's not like I had forgotten the whole, like, sex deal.
- [99:04]
A
Like, that's the part I really remembered, by the way, when I was reading that I was like, oh, I remember this. There was this part I remember that, like, all the guys in town are like. I mean, even, like, people who were, like, in their 50s were like, yeah, I fell for it, too.
- [99:17]
B
Yeah. The mayor, like, and then there's the scene where. The scene that I had forgotten and then immediately remembered is when he ejects Julie from the Little League game. Cause Julie is the. Like, is the coach of the Little League team. And they asked Zach to, like, for some reason, be the umpire. And she. He calls the. Calls a strike when she didn't thought it was ball. And she, like, kicks dirt on him and he ejects her from the game. And then everybody's like, oh, no, dude.
- [99:47]
A
Yeah. Someone's like. He's like a real Hollywood guy.
- [99:50]
B
You could beat him up.
- [99:51]
A
And then someone's like, yeah, he threw Julie out of the game. They're like, respect.
- [99:54]
B
And then, wait, the wedding, though, also, where everyone. Barbra Streisand singing.
- [100:05]
A
I mean, it was a lot. Everybody. She was sending him care packages, and he refused.
- [100:10]
B
Patrick Spleezy wrote him letters in jail, and he sent them back like, it was sad for him. So anyway, the point is. And then, like. And then he, like, decides he's gonna lawyer up and, like, basically destroy the warden.
- [100:25]
A
Yeah.
- [100:26]
B
Like, and fix Texas prisons. Like, I mean, there's a lot going on in this book.
- [100:31]
A
Yeah.
- [100:31]
B
At the end. And so I guess what I would say is I think that. I think it's interesting because I think we're looking at a time in romance where we still haven't quite figured out what a romance looks like.
- [100:43]
A
Yeah.
- [100:44]
B
And so I think that this text is really interesting to me for that. And I would argue, like, this predates Lord of Scoundrels, Dreaming of you, Nobody's Baby But Mine, like, the books that really codified the structure.
- [101:00]
A
Yeah.
- [101:00]
B
And so Judith McNaught, in all. In a lot of her books, like Kingdom of Dreams, also starts with, like, a good 60 pages of, like.
- [101:09]
A
Yeah.
- [101:09]
B
You know.
- [101:10]
A
Well, the other thing I was thinking about, and I. Okay. I was also thinking, like, what you also saw here was you saw authors like McNaught sort of going from, like, category to, like, single title. And you also saw essentially, like, the creation in real time of contemporary romance.
- [101:35]
B
Yes.
- [101:36]
A
Right. In this.
- [101:37]
B
At this length, as opposed to.
- [101:40]
A
At this length.
- [101:41]
B
So I think this is the question. Right. Like, so I didn't realize this until I recently found an. A first edition of Double Standards. Right. But Double Standards is category length.
- [101:51]
A
Yes. And was a category, wasn't it?
- [101:54]
B
It was a category. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Here it is. Number. It's harlequin temptation number 16. Mm. And now this book feels on the reread. Listen. And again, I don't recommend it as a. As a. If you've never read it, you're fine. But on the reread, this book feels long still. Like, it still has that sort of, like, heavy. There's a big plot. There's a, like, she sort of ties up a lot of. There's a lot of business that goes on in this book besides falling in love. But, like, I would argue. And I can't confirm it. Right. I mean, I guess this is a question that I wish we could have Sandra Brown back on to ask her. Right. And I think Sandra Brown, probably in those early, like, you know, chunky categories, like French Silk is not A.
- [102:44]
A
So for me, for her, it was
- [102:46]
B
Slow Heat in Heaven or Slow Heat in Heaven is a bigger book than a rock.
- [102:49]
A
And I remember that it was a bigger book. I remember being like, what's happening here?
- [102:54]
B
Right. And so I think what we're looking at here is a bunch of people who were stretching their legs and they didn't quite know what it looked like, how to build a. A, you know, standard length of a kind of standalone romance novel length, contemporary. A historical length, contemporary, without throwing in all of this extra stuff.
- [103:19]
A
Right. So Slow Heat in Heaven, I just looked it up, was 1988. This is 1993. And so that five years, right. When is when we get a lot of, like, those like this, and, like, they're moving back and forth kind of fluidly between historical and contemporary. It was just, like, a really interesting time.
- [103:39]
B
I. Yeah, I just think. I just think this is one of those situations where McNaught was a big enough name at this point. Like, she. She was a queen in historicals that probably they. They gave her carte blanche, too. They said you can write whatever you want.
- [103:52]
A
Sure. Because they didn't know either.
- [103:53]
B
Paradise had been a massive success.
- [103:56]
A
Yeah.
- [103:57]
B
And this makes me want to go back and read paradise too, and just see, like, structurally what it.
- [104:03]
A
I've read it recently, pretty recently, and
- [104:05]
B
does it have the same kind of.
- [104:07]
A
It's got. It's really interesting. It has a huge, like, gap. Like, they get married, and then, like, they have, like, a kind of a partner, and then they're married, and then, like, they don't realize they're still married. And then that's what, like, kind of gets them back together, essentially. I think she's getting. Gonna get married to somebody else and realizes. Right. So, I mean, I think. But it's that same thing. It's like, we were young, we betrayed each other. We didn't know what we wanted. We didn't know who we were. And then people took advantage of us because one of us had a lot of money or fame or whatever. Like, I think there was a lot of, like, that kind of thing in the ether. So.
- [104:42]
B
So, I mean, this is I don't know. All I'm. All I would say is, like, you're still looking at the, like, nascent.
- [104:48]
A
Yeah. Right.
- [104:50]
B
Like, it's, it's. We're not an old genre. Like, we're 50 years old and this book is 30, 33 years old.
- [104:58]
A
Right.
- [104:59]
B
So, like, we're still not there yet. We don't. We don't know what books look like yet.
- [105:03]
A
Yeah.
- [105:04]
B
And what's interesting too is we're still in a time where, I mean, like, the explosion of romance hasn't happened yet. Out of single title romance hasn't really happened yet. Like, there are historicals. Yes. And there is category length contemporary. But, like, this really is, like, there were, like, I don't know, maybe a couple dozen writers writing.
- [105:28]
A
Yeah, right. Like, I mean, Sandra Brown, Susan Elizabeth Phillips.
- [105:31]
B
Maybe not even a couple of dozen.
- [105:32]
A
Right.
- [105:33]
B
Like, and so then what happens is Susan Elizabeth Phillips, like, kind of. And like Rachel Gibson and others kind of come in and they start writing like a tight 375 page, you know, like, and it has a really clear structure and we meet, the characters meet in the first two chapters and, like, we start to really see romance, like, tighten up and. And then. So it's not really a surprise to me that people like Sandra Brown and Judith McNaught end up writing romantic suspense because they like plot so much.
- [106:08]
A
Yeah, right. Exactly.
- [106:09]
B
And they just can't find the gas in the engine if there's not all
- [106:14]
A
this other stuff happening. Yeah.
- [106:16]
B
I mean, like, truthfully, the gas in the engine here, interestingly, like, the whole murder piece really does feel like. I don't ever think about that part.
- [106:26]
A
No, absolutely not. I think I would say the one other thing I thought was really interesting, I was thinking a lot about it, is I think our love of the third act breakup comes from books like this where there is a continuing hundreds of pages where they're like, we're together. No, we're not. We're together. No, we're not. We're together. No, we're not. You betrayed me. No, I betrayed you. And this is not ongoing throughout the book. Right.
- [106:52]
B
And they both feel like. Yes. And I think this is also a book where the heroine hat she makes a huge mistake and, like, has to pay for it. And I think I will also add McNaught loves to punish a heroine for a mistake. And I think there's something, you know, like, this is a kingdom of dreams when, like, the brother comes and says they're killing him. Right. Like.
- [107:18]
A
Right.
- [107:18]
B
She has to stop.
- [107:21]
A
Yeah.
- [107:22]
B
She has to Make a choice that doesn't feel comfortable. She has to get out of her comfort zone.
- [107:27]
A
Right. In a very real way.
- [107:28]
B
Yeah, for sure.
- [107:29]
A
I have to stop listening to what everybody else says and listen to, like, what's inside. Right.
- [107:33]
B
Yeah. For love.
- [107:36]
A
For love. Anyway, what a time.
- [107:40]
B
I wonder if Kevin Costner knows that this book loves him as much as it does.
- [107:47]
A
I mean, Patrick Swayze, Stephen Seagal. I mean, I literally was like, wow, out of nowhere.
- [107:54]
B
Also, I mean, justice for poor Jack Nicholson, because at one point someone says, even Jack Nicholson looks good in a tuxedo. I was like, well, that's very sad for Jack Nicholson. Anyway. And interestingly, one other thing I did want to point out, and then I know we're way over, everybody. Sorry. I just have a lot to say about this book. But one thing is that's really interesting is prior to this, you. There was sort of a rule that you couldn't write movie stars. Interesting that nobody. No. And I think actually what I would say is probably that rule lasted a long time afterward, too. Like, you didn't see. This was the first time, you know, we saw movie stars in romance outside of, like, you know, the, like kind of washed up, like movie star in a contemporary. Right. In a category. But, like, there was a.
- [108:49]
A
There.
- [108:50]
B
There was a very real sense that, like, you couldn't sell musicians or movie stars during the 90s.
- [108:56]
A
Well, and athletes.
- [108:57]
B
Right.
- [108:57]
A
Like, it was just athletes until season.
- [108:59]
B
Yeah.
- [108:59]
A
Yeah.
- [109:00]
B
And so this was really interesting, but it did not. I don't think it birthed a bunch of movie stars. I think this just.
- [109:08]
A
Yeah. Sat on its own for a while.
- [109:09]
B
Sat on it. And now, of course, we have so many.
- [109:12]
A
That's interesting.
- [109:13]
B
It really is. None of them getting arrested. None of them murder. Accidentally being imprisoned for murder and then escaping prison and then kidnapping a lady in a blizzard. Taking her a place that's full of cashmere.
- [109:32]
A
Cashmere and snowmobiles. Content warning.
- [109:35]
B
Anyway, that's Judith McNaughts. Perfect, everybody. Now you've had a good look at my psyche.
- [109:43]
A
Amazing.
- [109:44]
B
But listen, I. I still think she's the queen. I'll tell you. When I first wrote the early days was maybe 11 scandals, a Revuke came out like RT was still in existence. And it was a. The month where, like, there were a bunch of RTs, a bunch of reviews, and 11 scandals had been reviewed. And it was reviewed very highly, Very, very complimentary in rt. And somebody else had a review the same month, and it also was reviewed very complimentary. Like, we both had the same number of stars. Except that person got like, it evokes, like old, old McNaughts this book. And I was so jealous.
- [110:23]
A
I was so jealous.
- [110:26]
B
And I don't know.
- [110:29]
A
That's fascinating.
- [110:30]
B
I know Judith McNaught. Anyway, if you're out there and you know Judith McNaught, tell her we love her.
- [110:38]
A
All right, everybody, have a good one.
- [110:41]
B
I'm Sarah McLean. I'm here with my friend Jen Prokop. We are Fated Mates. You can find us every Wednesday talking about romance novels@fatedmates.net or wherever you get your podcasts. If you go to fademates.net right now, you can click on episodes and you will see show notes for this episode which will have information on, you know, everything that we talked about and links to all of the books. And if you, you are interested, you could join our patreon@patreon.com faded mates. That's where you get access to every other banter episode of which there are more than 40. And the Discord where you can talk about romance novels with everybody else who loves romance novels over there. You can also find us online on Instagram and threads at Fatedmates Pod and on BlueStack. I updated mates.net and that is what we have to say about that. Goodbye, everyone.
- [111:43]
A
We hope go watch Dirty Dancing. Celebrate this auspicious occasion.
- [111:47]
B
Dirty Dancing.
- [111:49]
A
Yes.
- [111:51]
B
Good luck with your cashmere dresses. We hope they have structural integrity.