RERUN: Lord of Scoundrels: Reel or be Reeled

Summary

Podcast Summary: Fated Mates - "RERUN: Lord of Scoundrels: Reel or be Reeled"

Release Date: January 18, 2025

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Introduction: Excitement for "Lord of Scoundrels" Rerun

Sarah MacLean [00:00]
Sarah opens the episode with palpable enthusiasm, declaring, “Oh, it's Lord of Scoundrels week. I'm so excited.”

Jen Prokop [00:05]
Jen echoes Sarah’s excitement, setting the tone for an engaging discussion.

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Celebrating Loretta Chase and Her Mastery

Sarah MacLean [00:07]
Sarah expresses her admiration for Loretta Chase, lamenting, “Fuck you, Loretta Chase. Why are you so good at your job?”

Jen Prokop [02:41]
Jen concurs, highlighting Loretta's generosity and kindness, “she's so generous and she never rolls her eyes and is like, please, just stop. Get over it. She's just magnificent.”

The hosts delve into Loretta Chase’s exceptional ability to evoke deep emotions without judgment, emphasizing her role in challenging patriarchal norms within the romance genre.

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Season Two Focus: Books That "Blooded" Us

Sarah MacLean [03:27]
Sarah introduces Season Two of Fated Mates, themed around books that have profoundly influenced them: “this season, we're doing the books that blooded us, and that means the books that taught us what romance could be.”

Jen Prokop [04:17]
Jen adds, “Lord of Scoundrels was on both of our lists. This is our first double.”

They discuss how "Lord of Scoundrels" stands out as a seminal work in their personal romance DNA, alongside authors like Susan Elizabeth Phillips and Julie Garwood.

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Deep Dive into the Prologue: Crafting a Compelling Backstory

Sarah MacLean [14:17]
Sarah emphasizes the importance of the prologue in "Lord of Scoundrels," countering the common advice to exclude prologues: “To every person who has ever said that out loud as a legitimate piece of advice, I say read Lord of Scoundrels. You are wrong.”

Jen Prokop [22:11]
Jen praises the prologue’s ability to provide a comprehensive backstory: “it's like watching a fast forward movie of his life from childhood to adulthood.”

The hosts analyze how the prologue expertly sets up the protagonist, Dane, as a complex character shaped by a traumatic past, establishing the groundwork for his transformation throughout the novel.

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Character Analysis: Dane and Jessica

Sarah MacLean [25:35]
Sarah describes Jessica (Jess) as a "primordial heroine romance" akin to a Valkyrie, highlighting her strength and determination.

Jen Prokop [32:19]
Jen discusses Jess’s unwavering resolve and how her character contrasts with Dane’s guarded nature, “she is never going to give in.”

Notable Quote [35:35]
Jen remarks, “fellow readers, I could have been, like, at home comfortably pumping my wife. It's like the most ridiculous line.”

The discussion underscores Jess’s role as both a catalyst and a balancing force to Dane’s complexity, showcasing her as the embodiment of resilience and intelligence.

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Iconic Scenes: Antique Shop and the Glove Encounter

Antique Shop Scene

Sarah MacLean [26:09]
Sarah recounts Jess’s first encounter with Dane in an antique shop, where Jess is determined to retrieve a valuable relic despite Dane’s intimidating presence.

Jen Prokop [27:15]
Jen highlights the immediate chemistry and tension: “there's a dozen sparklers go off. There's no ramping up. It's straight into this conflict and chemistry all over.”

Glove Scene

Sarah MacLean [35:35]
Sarah details the pivotal glove-unbuttoning scene, emphasizing Dane’s internal struggle and Jess’s assertiveness: “He starts to unbutton her glove and kisses her palm like it’s a relic.”

Jen Prokop [41:37]
Jen praises the scene’s intensity and emotional depth: “we are convinced Jess is in it. Oh, my God.”

These scenes are dissected for their masterful portrayal of immediate attraction, power dynamics, and the subtle unraveling of Dane’s hardened exterior.

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Themes: Challenging Patriarchy and Toxic Masculinity

Sarah MacLean [76:46]
Sarah connects the narrative to broader societal issues, stating, “this book hits toxic masculinity every time he is standing in his own way.”

Jen Prokop [76:54]
Jen agrees, highlighting Dane’s inability to overcome his ingrained beliefs: “he cannot get out from underneath the toxicity.”

The hosts explore how "Lord of Scoundrels" serves as a critique of patriarchal structures and toxic masculinity, illustrating how Dane’s personal growth is intertwined with these themes.

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Narrative Structure: Internal vs. External Conflict

Sarah MacLean [68:01]
Sarah discusses the novel’s intricate balance of internal and external conflicts, noting how the external pressures eventually bring the characters to a pivotal turning point.

Jen Prokop [75:25]
Jen elaborates on the seamless integration of these conflicts, emphasizing the skillful pacing Loretta Chase employs to maintain tension and engagement.

They analyze how the book transitions from mutual antagonism to a deeper, more complex relationship dynamic, ensuring that both internal emotions and external circumstances drive the narrative forward.

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Literary References and Historical Context

Sarah MacLean [85:02]
Sarah provides a historical context, drawing parallels between Dane’s character and the infamous poet Lord Byron: “Dane really is a Byronic hero... but Byron was terrible.”

Jen Prokop [83:30]
Jen adds insights into Byron’s real-life flaws, contrasting them with the romanticized version often depicted in literature: “Byron was awful. He had a terrible childhood... he was a monster.”

The discussion highlights how Loretta Chase subverts traditional literary archetypes by embedding deeper moral complexities into her characters, moving beyond mere romantic conventions.

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Conclusion: The Enduring Legacy of "Lord of Scoundrels"

Sarah MacLean [78:41]
Sarah concludes by asserting the novel’s timeless relevance and craftsmanship: “it transcends the genre in every way. It really does.”

Jen Prokop [85:27]
Jen echoes the sentiment, acknowledging the book’s multifaceted strength despite certain dated elements: “this book has so... it is so perfect on so many levels.”

The hosts reaffirm "Lord of Scoundrels" as a masterpiece within the romance genre, lauding its intricate character development, thematic depth, and exceptional storytelling.

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Listener Feedback and Final Thoughts

Listener Call-In [94:06]
Lindsay from Baltimore shares her journey into romance through "Saving the CEO" by Jenny Holiday and her discovery of Fated Mates, emphasizing the podcast’s impact on her reading habits.

Sarah MacLean [95:31]
Sarah thanks listeners for their support and encourages continued engagement through social media and merchandise.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Sarah MacLean [00:07]: “Fuck you, Loretta Chase. Why are you so good at your job?”

• Jen Prokop [22:11]: “It’s like watching a fast forward movie of his life from childhood to adulthood.”

• Sarah MacLean [25:35]: “Jess is perfect. She's perfect.”

• Jen Prokop [35:35]: “We are convinced Jess is in it. Oh, my God.”

• Sarah MacLean [76:46]: “This book hits toxic masculinity every time he is standing in his own way.”

• Sarah MacLean [85:02]: “Dane really is a Byronic hero... but Byron was terrible.”

• Sarah MacLean [78:41]: “It transcends the genre in every way. It really does.”

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Final Thoughts:

Sarah MacLean and Jen Prokop deliver an in-depth and passionate analysis of "Lord of Scoundrels," celebrating its literary excellence and profound impact on the romance genre. Through meticulous examination of characters, themes, and narrative structure, they underscore the novel’s enduring legacy and its role in challenging societal norms. Listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of why "Lord of Scoundrels" remains a beloved classic, making this rerun a must-listen for both longtime fans and newcomers alike.

Transcript

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, it's Lord of Scoundrels week. I'm so excited.

[Jen Prokop]

I know. Me too.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, my God. I just can't. Like, every time I open this book, I think to myself, like, it's. It can't possibly be as good as I remember it.

[Jen Prokop]

And then I'm like, it's better.

[Sarah MacLean]

And fuck you, Loretta Chase. Why are you so good at your job? Oh, my God. I shouldn't say that. She's also the. For the record, she's the most remarkable human.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

You know, when you're a writer. I'm probably gonna regret saying all this, but whatever. When you're a writer and you're writing in the genre that, like, you have read your whole life and that you are this obsessed with. You're so obsessed with it that not only do you write it all day, then you record podcasts about it and read it all night. When you are me, like, you go off into the world when you're a baby writer. When you're like, in 2009, when I sold my first romance novel and I ended up at the RWA national conference, starry eyed. Right.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, I'm sure.

[Sarah MacLean]

And you start to meet people who have written books that have transformed you. Like the books that blooded you.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And you start to be really disappointed. Often, like, you meet somebody whose books you love and you're like, ugh, I wish. Like, never meet your idols.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah, right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like, people and like, look, it's just like that. It's a business just like everything else. And some people are great and some people are not great. And, like, it just sucks though, when you come at it as a reader and you're like, some people just are not great.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Loretta Chase is great. She is so wonderful and, like, so willing to, like, have you cry at her.

[Jen Prokop]

That's awesome.

[Sarah MacLean]

And talk to her. And I will tell you, I've met Loretta, you know, probably five or six times now. And literally every time I meet her, I ask her a question about Lord of Scoundrels. And every time she answers it, like, she's so generous and she never rolls her eyes and is like, please, just stop. Get over it. She's just magnificent. And I will say that is true of her and that is true of Lisa Klepas, and it is true of other people. But for me, the fact that Loretta and Lisa are as kind and generous and good as they are.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Just makes me, like, gives me great joy as a reader. Like, because I do come at this first as a reader, but also, oh, my God, Loretta, I'm working on a book right now, and this has just set me back weeks because it's so good.

[Jen Prokop]

It's so good. Sarah, when did you first read Lord of Scoundrels? Do you remember?

[Sarah MacLean]

I do remember. I came to it really late.

[Jen Prokop]

Wait, we should say. Welcome to Fated Mates, everyone.

[Sarah MacLean]

I'm Sarah Maclean. I write romances. I read romances.

[Jen Prokop]

I'm Jen Prokop. I read and critique romance. I guess. I don't know. I just read it all the time. I love it so much.

[Sarah MacLean]

And it's Lord of Scoundrels week. You're joining us for. If you're joining us for the first time, which maybe some of you are, because this is one of your favorite books this season. Last season, Fated Mates focused on Kressley Cole and Immortals After Dark, a series that Jen and I believe is one of the very best romance series of all time.

[Jen Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

And we had intended to do 22 episodes, and here we are on episode two, season two. 55 or something. And we are thrilled to have you this season. Season two, we're doing the books that blooded us, and that means the books that taught us what romance could be. And before the season started, we both made a list, and Lord of Scoundrels was on both of our lists.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

This is our first double.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah, I think so. Because I think for other authors, like, I had one, you had another sometimes, I mean, things like that. But this one. Yeah, Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Author over. That was. But yeah. So Lord of Scoundrels, Loretta Chase's master work.

[Jen Prokop]

And this is 1995. 1995.

[Sarah MacLean]

1995. Something was in the water over Dream.

[Jen Prokop]

Of Dreaming of youf was 1995, right?

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah, four or five. 1994. 1995. Dreaming of youf, which is Derek Craven, Loretta Chase, Susan Elizabeth Phillips. Yeah. The first Julia Quinn was acquired. Right. Now, there are not the first Bridgerton, but the first Julia, like Julia was acquired.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

So something was going on in romance and over at avon in the 90s right around now. So. But we should talk. Well, let's talk. Let's just overview the fact that if you look at any overarching list of the best romance novels of all time, most of them are going to include Lord of Scoundrels. And certainly both Jen's and my lists include Lord of Scoundrels. And there are lots and lots of reasons why, which we're going to get into as we talk about this. But I'm going to turn your question on You. Because I've been talking a lot. When did you first read Lord of Scoundrels?

[Jen Prokop]

So, you know what's interesting is I was looking back through like I was trying to figure out if it was in like the Amazon years, right? Because I often use my Amazon account as my book memory. I don't know if other people do this, but I created my first Amazon account back in like 98 maybe so. But I didn't of course, buy everything from Amazon. You know, I look back and I'm like, I like three orders that year or something. So I have ordered Lord of Scoundrels four or five times. Like, I was like, how is this possible? Right? I must have given them of gifts or replaced copies I had. So it's really hard to tell. But I do not think. My guess is I read this in the late 90s. I mean, I definitely feel like this book has been a part of like my like, romance DNA from like kind of in that, like the Garwood years. Like for. For me it was like Susan Elizabeth Phillips and Julie Garwood and you know, like sort of the prize and those historicals and then like Lord of Scoundrels slots in there. But I. I don't have a really vivid memory of, of reading it because it feels like it was always there.

[Sarah MacLean]

Ah, that's interesting. So on the Sierra Simone, the Priest episode, I told you that there are a handful of books that I can remember reading for the first time. Like, I know I can see myself like having an out of body. Like I remember reading Devil in Winter while I was lying in my bed in like my first Brooklyn apartment. I remember reading Priest on the couch here in my current Brooklyn apartment. I remember reading Sweet Ruin here. Same couch.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And in between, I lived in this apartment in Brooklyn, the middle apartment. It was the first apartment that I lived in with Eric. And I remember it was like a Saturday afternoon and I was reading Lord of Scoundrels because everybody had said, you love Lisa Klepas, you love Julia Quinn, you love like all these, like all these romance novels. Like you're reading Lorraine Heath. Like, how have you not read Lord of Scoundrels? And I had read Mr. Impossible and I had read other Chases, I mean other Lorettas of Lord of Scoundrels books and loved them. And somehow I had skipped this. This was a. Interesting, interesting. It was a weird empty spot. And I remember I was lying on the couch and my dog was at the far end of the couch and it was just the two of us. And I Got to the moment. We're gonna spoil things in this episode. P.S. so if you have not read and you don't wanna be spoiled, leave now. But I got to the moment where Jessica shoots Dane.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh.

[Sarah MacLean]

And I sat straight up. I shot up on the couch, scared the dog off the couch, and went. Oh, my God. Aloud to the room.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And I was like, what did I.

[Jen Prokop]

Just read is happening?

[Sarah MacLean]

Because I had sort of. I was delighted by this book until that moment when I realized, like, she was doing something really remarkable.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And, like, I think when we talk about the books that made us think about the genre in different ways. Like, it is very possible that. That Loretta Chase is the reason why I ultimately, like, wrote a book. Because I felt like she showed me, like, what the. What the. The bar was.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah. That's amazing.

[Sarah MacLean]

I.

[Jen Prokop]

This is like a funny story. I don't think I've told this story. So I. After I graduated from college, which was in 1995, I moved to Houston to do Teach for America, which is where I met Daryl, who is, like, now my husband. And I moved. I had an under the bed box, like a plastic box. I still have it. And I had. And there was a collection, it's like, two rows wide, of romance novels that I had kept from my high school kind of college years and traveled with. And then in 1997, we moved to California. And Daryl would always laugh about the books under the bed because they did, you know, I don't know. This was pre. I didn't put them out on the shelf. Like, I just didn't want to have those conversations with people. Now if you come to my house, you're likely to leave with romance novels, because I'll be like, here, take this. You want it? But I feel like Lord of Scoundrels just was, like, always in the box. Yeah, it was just always in the box.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yep. And I don't remember. Did you have. Did you have this coverage?

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah. With the lady on it. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

I'm sorry. I'm gonna show you this cover.

[Jen Prokop]

Yes, that's the one.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. Which is. Now you have a second copy now.

[Jen Prokop]

I do. I do. So. Yeah. But I have bought and rebought this several times. I was looking at my Amazon account.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, I realized I have it on Kindle and Apple Books.

[Jen Prokop]

There you go.

[Sarah MacLean]

So, I mean, I think I've bought. I've done the same thing. I think I've spent a lot of money on this book.

[Jen Prokop]

Worth it.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, I don't care.

[Jen Prokop]

I don't care either.

[Sarah MacLean]

So, okay, let's. Let's get into it. So we gave you a little bit of information about where you know. So I think we need to talk about what the story is a little bit. Although it's a massive story, and I always forget that. Like, I always come back. When I come back at it, there are these beats of it that I think of all the time. Like, every time I write a glove into a book, I think about her. Every time I write a fan into a book, I think about her.

[Jen Prokop]

Like, oh, yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

There are these moments. Like, these very clear, like, crystallized moments, I think, not just for me as a writer, but, like, for romance. And romance readers across the board, like, remember a lot of very specific moments in this book. But I'm always really. So I always forget, like, major plot points. Like, oh, yeah. Like, this time around, I was like, oh, shit, he has a bastard son. Of course he does. Like, which, of course I knew, but, like, never enters my mind.

[Jen Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

So let's talk about this. This is. It's Beauty and the Beast.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, for sure. For sure. I. You know, it's funny because I think the thing I almost want to do is I want to talk about the prologue, and then. Because it is.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well, the beauty. Let's talk. So, okay, the trope across the board is Beauty and the Beast.

[Jen Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

But it's Beauty and the Beast, like, you've never seen.

[Jen Prokop]

Sure. Because Jess is, I think, an unparalleled romance heroine. Right. I mean, she is just amazing, but not in a way that ever. She doesn't ever seem like a Mary sue to me. I don't know if other people will feel differently. She just feels like, wait, what?

[Sarah MacLean]

She's not a Mary Sue.

[Jen Prokop]

She's not a Mary Sue.

[Sarah MacLean]

She's not a Mary sue for the first second, she's on the page.

[Jen Prokop]

Right. Well, I just feel like. I don't know. Like, I just wanted debunk that immediately in case someone's, like, she had. Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

I didn't think that way about it. She's on the page. She's there to, like. She's arrived in Paris to, like, get her. Oh, yeah, reprobate, like, brother's shit together.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, yeah. Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

And I mean, she is having none of this from the start, but let's talk about that prologue, because I think the setup for this as Beauty and the Beast requires that the prologue exists. So first things first. If I have said this on Twitter, I've said this on this podcast. If you are a person who does not read prologues and you have Aaron from Heathen Bosoms.

[Jen Prokop]

What the hell?

[Sarah MacLean]

We write them for a reason.

[Jen Prokop]

This one is though. Woo.

[Sarah MacLean]

There is, and there is this real problematic like, adage in writing that like you shouldn't actually write prologues. Like prologues are unnecessary. You just cut them out and start in chapter one. And to every person who has ever said that out loud as like a legitimate piece of advice, I say read Lord of Scoundrels. Like, you are wrong. Lord of Scoundrels, you've been lawyered.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sarah MacLean]

So this prologue is essential. And what's really interesting about it is it does so, so much work and it's remarkable.

[Jen Prokop]

I mean, it is, I don't know how long, 20 pages maybe.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's long.

[Jen Prokop]

It's a long prologue.

[Sarah MacLean]

Because usually, I mean, I've written a lot of prologues and they're usually like couple pages. Like I just wrote a prologue for this book that I'm working on right.

[Jen Prokop]

Now and it's two pages long, so it's 20 pages. And basically it is like watching a, like fast, A fast forward movie, right. Of this band's like kind of life from childhood to adulthood, but in a way that shows him being like both laid low and then completely ascendant.

[Sarah MacLean]

I had forgotten. It starts with his father, which is actually a nod. There are a couple of moments in the book. So as I, as you know, Jen, I wrote the introduction to a Georgette Heyer book called the Transformation of Philip Jatan. And I wrote it, which has just been re released by the Modern Library this season. And they asked to write the introduction and I was very flattered and I wrote it. And what's interesting is that the Transformation of Philip Jatan also begins with the hero's father, like the story is. And it's really interesting because I think there are a couple of moments in this book that are actually nods to Heyer. And we can talk more about that later. But there's. But what's interesting is the story. Yeah, it begins with the father losing the father losing his favored family, like losing his first four children. The first line is in the spring of 1792, the 3rd Marquess of Dane, Earl of Blackmoor, Viscount Launcels, Baron Ballister and Launcels lost his wife and four children to typhus. And like this is before our current hero even exists.

[Jen Prokop]

Even exists. I would also like to point out it's the reason why it seems like shocking that we ever forget that Jane is a father at the end. Of course, the book that begins with a father is going to end with him being a father. It's inevitable. Yeah. Always. Always. You're planting the seeds, like start as you mean to go on.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yep.

[Jen Prokop]

And so that shouldn't surprise us. And yet it doesn't feel inevitable. Even though it should.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well, what's really interesting is. So the original Earl Dane's father loses his family, his wife, his proper wife and his four children to typhus. He cares only for his mistress, whom he will not marry because of, you know, whatever reasons. Because of class. Yeah. He won't marry his mistress. So he marries a 17 year old Italian girl.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Who is like written into this book as like the, like as a firebrand Italian who refuses to compromise, who refuses to cow to this horrible man.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Who has married her. He gets her with child. And then he peaces out.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh. In every way.

[Sarah MacLean]

And even loathes her.

[Jen Prokop]

Loathes her. She's so earthy. She like wants. She's so wants things from him in the bedroom, you know? Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

The.

[Jen Prokop]

I would. And we're talking the dark and light stuff. This is like probably the real thing that. But you know, he. She's too. She's just not prim and proper.

[Sarah MacLean]

No. She's a scandal.

[Jen Prokop]

She is a scandal. Exactly.

[Sarah MacLean]

And. And yet he thought she was going to be. Ah. But also he believes. The dad believes that he's been duped. Right. Like, she wasn't a scandal when he married her.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

She wasn't this like kind of mouthy, sure, Difficult, difficult girl when he married her. And he believes that he has been duped.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

He gets her with child. She has the child who is ugly and wailing, pleasant and he can't even stand to look at it. And it is described as an It.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Because he looks Italian.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah. We get the appearance of like one of my favorite historical tropes though, which is you can't deny that the baby's yours because he has the magical birthmark that all the babies in our family have. Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

I know, I love that. It's so terrible and dumb, but I love it. I love that. I love eye color. Like no one's ever had an eye color that color except your father. I mean, I'm currently writing that they all have these amber eyes that their father also had.

[Jen Prokop]

Of course.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like to prove it. It's proof.

[Jen Prokop]

It's proof. It's proof there was no. Whatever these modern day DNA kits are where people instead find out their fathers aren't their fathers.

[Sarah MacLean]

No. Ancestry.com. no. And this is his child. And he's miserable about it, but he sure isn't going to get her with a second one.

[Jen Prokop]

No.

[Sarah MacLean]

So they live this horrible life.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And this poor child grows up unloved.

[Jen Prokop]

He's miserable.

[Sarah MacLean]

He's taught Italian by his mother.

[Jen Prokop]

Not enough. And his dad fights it.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well. But he certainly speaks plenty of Italian. Oh, no, he does learn it.

[Jen Prokop]

He learns it later. He, like, makes a point of learning.

[Sarah MacLean]

It, but he learns the words trono, which was my father's. One of my father's favorite words, my dad. So I have a. I. There's probably a little bit of a soft spot in my heart for this book now as I've lost my dad, who was Italian and spoke Italian in a very colorful way. And so there are definitely, like, all the Italian in here. Just gave me a lot of joy.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure it did.

[Sarah MacLean]

But in. As part of this, he gets shipped off to school. His mom gets shipped off to.

[Jen Prokop]

Well, she takes off.

[Sarah MacLean]

She leaves. Yeah, she leaves. He stays. He gets shipped off to school where he is brutally bullied and tortured for the way he looks, for his weird nose, for his scandalous mom, for everything. For his darkness, his dark hair and his dark skin, his olive. His olive complexion. And, like, it's just awful and monstrous. And he won't. Oh, he too won't cow. Right. Like, is the sins of the mother in him. And he will never, like, look. Look England in the eye. Like, he will. He will never, ever allow them to own him. And so he. And I love the. He looks at the boys and he calls them strong. So. Which is a great word. And I was actually prepping for this. I was like, how. What is the exact. It's asshole, but it's asshole with, like, pure disgust and disdain. Like, it's a. It's a word you use when, like, you just, like, you can't even bear to think about how, like, how much. How stupid this person is. It's a really. It's like a. It's a non. There's no direct translation.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah. One of the things I really love about the prologue, though, is that the, like, from being laid this low and him being refusing Dachau, the way that things turn for him is that people start to admire this in him. And the thing that I really love is that when his father finally dies, the father has essentially purposefully. As a way to, like, one last way to fuck with him. Like, bankrupted himself as much as possible. And Dane is like, yeah, no big deal. And, like, him sort of Ruthlessly kind of fixing these problems like it's child's play.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yep. And then, like, selling it all off.

[Jen Prokop]

Selling it all off and keeping what he had to and ruthlessly reorganizing and then, like, flouncing off to Paris, like, essentially never to darken the doorstep of England again. It's Is awesome. It's awesome. Right. Because you sense in him this. His need for control, but his ability to actually bend everything he sees to his will.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yep.

[Jen Prokop]

I mean, it absolutely sets up him as a character who. But instead of thinking he's a jerk, we admire him.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well, of course you do. Which is why the prologue is essential. Because the second you get to Dane in current time in Paris, this guy is a proper fucker.

[Jen Prokop]

And, like.

[Sarah MacLean]

Right, Exactly. I mean, like, he is awful.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah. Awful.

[Sarah MacLean]

And the only reason why we are with him at the beginning of this book and frankly, with him through almost all of it. I would say the reason why we are with him until Jess shoots him. Yeah. When we become with him again.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Is because the prologue is so perfectly done.

[Jen Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like, we are given a look into how a monster is made.

[Jen Prokop]

Absolutely. And it is. It's urgently necessary. I think one of the things that's really interesting. We were talking about. I had my book club at Love Sweet Arrow last week, and we were talking about. And it was similar to how we talked about Gentle Rogue. Right. Like, a book that we felt started too late. Right. Like, it had too much in the beginning. It needed to start 10 chapters in. And then we were talking about another book and we were like, it started. We needed more. Right. Like, it needed to back up this book. The timing of these scenes, like, even the way that we are thrown into them in chapter one. Meaning essentially, in this shop, there is just. Just appears all of the backstory has been for him. Absolutely none of it is for her. And it's fascinating the way that we are then really, like, heavily weighted in his favor at this point. We have to be. So it's a really fascinating too, like, the way that the structure of that opening scene, like the literal first chapter, serves to, like, put her into, like, immediate conflict with him in a way where, like, we know nothing about her. It's so well done. Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's magnificent. So let's talk about her, because we're 25 minutes in and we've only talked about the prologue, so. So let's talk about Jess, because I think Jess is one of these primordial. Like, she's basically a Valkyrie. Right. Like, she's. She's Like a primordial heroine romance. Like, there is part of the reason. There are a lot of reasons to love this book, the prologue aside, the prologue included. But the. The. Jess is perfect. She's perfect. So we meet her in an antique shop. Well, we don't. We meet her coming to get. Set her dumb brother straight, but she'll.

[Jen Prokop]

Do a little shopping for grandma's birthday while she's at it.

[Sarah MacLean]

Exactly. So. But I want to talk about that antique shop scene because I really feel like that's. That's when we see her. That's when she shines. So she comes into the antique shop and Dane likes to collect beautiful things. Old beautiful things. And he's looking at stuff. And she is looking at. She's bought. Has she already bought the watch and she.

[Jen Prokop]

No, she's, like, looking at it, right?

[Sarah MacLean]

She's looking at the watch and she's looking at this very sort of grimy thing.

[Jen Prokop]

No, he's looking at the grimy thing, right? And he's so distracted by her that then she's looking at the watch. She's looking at the watch with the, like, you know, you pull the cord or whatever, and all of a sudden.

[Sarah MacLean]

It'S a dirty business.

[Jen Prokop]

A lover's service. Right?

[Sarah MacLean]

Love it.

[Jen Prokop]

And he's so distracted by her that he. Who had been looking at the grimy.

[Sarah MacLean]

Thing because she's beautiful. Like.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah, she's beautiful. And it's great. I mean, he's just like. His heart's beating faster. He doesn't know how he feels. Right. It's unreal.

[Sarah MacLean]

Dane checks in on his heart a whole lot in this book. Did you notice that, like, the heartbeats, the level, the racing of his. The racing of his heart is con. Like he's keenly aware of it all the time. And he doesn't understand it because he's a silly, silly boy. He's like, why is my heart going so fast?

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah, right? And then, you know, her dumb brother is there distracting him, and he's just like, all put out by everything, you know, He's a very sensitive soul. And this scene, though, where they, like, tangle, right? Like where she stands up to him, she makes a joke that shows she knows what algebra is, right? Or knows, you know, knows how equations work. And it's fascinating that to see these two just, like, immediately, it's like a dozen sparklers go off. There is no ramping up. It's just straight into this conflict and chemistry all over.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like a religious icon.

[Jen Prokop]

Yes. As one does, right?

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, only Loretta Chase can make this happen the way that it does. Like if I, if you'd said, all right, you need to start a book in an antique shop, I'd be like, I don't know, is somebody robbing it? Like, what's happening?

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah, it's real, so it's something, something else. So I think that that's the part though where we get her also in the role of, like, it's her. The thing with her brother was really interesting to me this time around. Right. Because she's a 27 year old spinster. Right. And she's got this dream. The reason she's shopping in this store is she's gonna buy this stuff and open her own like, store and sell this stuff to the gentry, right?

[Sarah MacLean]

Yep.

[Jen Prokop]

And her dumb brother does not approve. And she's like, who's gonna make this money for us, buddy? Like, we gotta do it. And I useless, I'm not watching anybody's kids anymore. Yeah. Because she's been babysitting the cousins for 10 years or whatever. Sure.

[Sarah MacLean]

But I also think that what's remarkable about that first scene in this shop is that we see, it's all foreshadowing. We see Jess when she talks. So she finally gets this grimy thing in her hands and she decides she's gonna buy it. And Dane doesn't know what she's got. Like, he's been holding it. She has. He has no idea what he's holding. And she's like. And then she, she like negotiates with the shop owner. Down, down, down. And then she's like, well, fine, if you won't give me 30, if you want, let me have it for 25, then I just want the watch. I don't want the whole. I don't want it all. And then he's. The shopkeeper's like, fine, you're killing me. Right, fine. And then she walks out of there with something that ultimately is going to be worth £20,000. And it's a perfect moment of like, of. We don't know at the time that it's worth £20,000. It takes like what, a chapter or two, like, I mean, for it to become clear. I mean, she knows exactly what she has.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And. But the. What's remarkable about this is that we see instantly this kind of like, here's a woman who is never going to give in. Like, she is. For every bit of stubbornness and pride and shame that he has, that he is hiding behind this like impenetrable fortress of personality. She does not. She has stubbornness and pride and no shame in spades.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And she won't have it. She's gonna fight for everything. And ultimately, she's gonna fight for him. And that is the joy of this book.

[Jen Prokop]

Absolutely. Because no one has ever fought for him. He's always been able to scare everybody off. And so this, like, small face off in this store where she, like, wins.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Jen Prokop]

And he is just, like, befuddled by both her beauty and her presence and her smarts. I mean, it's like, the things that he notices about her is all set up for, like, what's gonna happen, but also that he, in this moment, like, the icon itself, like, lets her go. Like, he's just like, I can't. I don't really deal with ladies, and this is a lady, so I just have to let her go. And it's really fascinating because at this. I mean, he's besotted with her from the very, very beginning.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yes. And she's. This is what's magnificent about this book. She's besotted with him.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, absolutely.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's page 42 in the book, right? No, it's page 43 in the book. He's basically like, I'm gonna whore my way through Paris. Cause I can't deal with feelings.

[Jen Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

With, like, the feelings I have for this woman. I don't deal with ladies. And then she's with her amazing grandma, who's, like, an amazing character.

[Jen Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

And she says on page 43, this is not only mortifying, but inconvenient. I am in lust with Dane of all times now. Of all men, him. Like.

[Jen Prokop]

And it is like, what?

[Sarah MacLean]

Like every other. I mean, like, I've never written a book where they're, like, on page 42. Because how. Where do you want here these two people?

[Jen Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

But of course, they're like, it's perfect. It's perfect. And she's so mad, and he's so confused.

[Jen Prokop]

I know. The only one who truly understands is the grandmother. Grandma, who's like, look it. Set your hooks and reel him in. And it is this amazing advice from her where she's just like, look, he. This is not gonna end well. He's. He's coming after you, and it's not gonna be good. So you need to go hunting for big game. Like, this is it. Right? This is it.

[Sarah MacLean]

Shoot. Your shot, Jess.

[Jen Prokop]

Yep. And it's fascinating that her instinct, instead, is to. To, like, avoid him. And it's fascinating, too, because she understands perfectly well the kind of man he is. Right. And it hurts her Dumb brother who gives it away. I mean, there's all this really fascinating stuff. About as idiotic as Dane is about understanding himself and his own feelings is as perfect as Jess is about understanding herself, her feelings, him, his feelings and everything. And that's the part that I love about her, is her. Oh, it's just so good, Sarah. I'm like, I don't even know. Like, I know that. I just. It's perfect. It's perfect.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's so good in large part because she has his number from the start, but she is also blindsided. Like, she's like, I want him. I'm attracted to him.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

I have his number. And then she thinks she knows how she's gonna get him, but she thinks she'll be able to do it while keeping herself safe.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And she can't. She can't. He is too much. Like, they are too much for each other. They are perfect for each other, obviously, but, like, they've. Neither of them have ever met a match.

[Jen Prokop]

That's exactly right.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's, you know, perfect. It's cat versus cat. There is no. And I mean, if anything, it's cat versus mouse with Dane as mouse.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sarah MacLean]

Because every time he lays a trap for her, she's one step ahead of him. And that's why I want to talk about the glove scene.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, absolutely. I was like, that's where we're heading because it's happening, Right? I mean, I want to point out, like, I want to go back to the whole, like, reel him in, right. And what the grandmother says is that is a man who gets what he wants, Jessica. And if I were you, I should not want him to be the one reeling in the line, right? Like, this shit's happening, and if you're. It's real or be real. And she, I think, does take this advice to heart. So when we get to the glove scene, and I want to say. I would like to say I didn't do a lot of research for this, but I am convinced that Loretta Chase watched the age of innocence movie. I mean, it is also a scene in the book. And I mean, it's in the book, basically. And I remember talking about this in college. Like, I read the age of innocence in college. I'll never actually forget it. The line is that he unbuttons her glove and kisses her palm like it's a relic. I mean, relic is a really interesting word. And then in the movie, right, it's like Daniel Day Lewis. Like, it's like slowly unbuttoning the glove, right?

[Sarah MacLean]

Daniel Day Lewis can get it, man.

[Jen Prokop]

No kidding, right?

[Sarah MacLean]

He's so intense.

[Jen Prokop]

And there's Daniel Lewis, and he's sitting in a chair. Now, I had heard that he was.

[Sarah MacLean]

A little bit intense, right?

[Jen Prokop]

But he's not really. He's really the most intense person that.

[Sarah MacLean]

Has ever lived on earth.

[Jen Prokop]

All he is doing is sitting in a chair, and I am terrified of him. It is like a jungle cat has wandered onto the ceiling.

[Sarah MacLean]

What do you do?

[Jen Prokop]

Are you supposed to move around a lot or stay perfectly still?

[Sarah MacLean]

What are the rules of Daniel Day Lewis?

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, God. All he does is, like, pine and long and smolder. It's so intense. And so.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Jen Prokop]

I mean, there's no part of me. That movie came out in 1993. Obviously, the Age of Innocence has been around for 100 years at this point. But so writing this in 1995, it definitely feels. Felt. I felt that. So talk about the glove scene. And I want you to talk about it with, like, the writer's eye, because it's an amazing moment.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. So, I mean, there's a battle, right? Back and forth. So basically, Jess is trying to get. I mean, Jess is trying to get Dane by this point, but she's really. But, like, ostensibly externally, like, the external conflict is this brother.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

So essentially, Jess is convinced that her idiotic brother is that way because he is under the nefarious influence of Dane and his, like, libertine friends. Which is partially true, but also Birdie's, you know.

[Jen Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like. Like, Birdie comes to the table, too. Like, it's. Everybody meets everyone halfway here. But. But Jess is basically like, look, my brother's a simpleton. Like, he's a proper nitwit. You and I both know that you're ruining his finances and his life, and I need you to stay away from his. From him forever. And Dane is like, I mean, I guess I will, but now I know what that relic is, and I want it. And she's like, pardon?

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

No, no, it's my relic. Like, I found it. It's mine.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And he offers her. He's so this. So they go to this dinner. They're at this dinner party in front of her.

[Jen Prokop]

Like, it's like a restaurant, a tea party. Something like a tea show.

[Sarah MacLean]

Lots and lots of people around.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And they're all. But there are people they know there, too, who are watching them. And so anyways, so they're sitting together, and he's like. And she's like. He's like, here's the Deal. It's fifteen hundred dollars. Fifteen hundred pounds to you for the relic. Yeah. And I'll leave Birdie alone or I'm ruining your.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah, your reputation.

[Sarah MacLean]

Your reputation. Like, now he's playing dirty, right?

[Jen Prokop]

Right?

[Sarah MacLean]

And she's like, fuck off. Like, no, I said no. Right? Don't threaten me.

[Jen Prokop]

Right?

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah, I said no, you don't get the relic. And he's like. And she's like, and what are you gonna do? Like, how are you gonna ruin my reputation? I'm not gonna ever be alone with you. I'm not an idiot. And he takes her hand and he starts to unbutton her glove. Which, of course is.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, yeah, sure.

[Sarah MacLean]

Very. Not done. Wrists are not allowed. And he's touching her. I mean, like, we're talking about the Regency. Like, you don't touch women. Like, men do not touch women. And so he takes her glove and she, of course, is so badass. She's like, I'm not gonna let it happen. Like, fine. And we're in his pov, which is a genius choice. And he starts to speak to her in Italian. He starts to whisper nothings into her. Like, nothings into her ear. But, like, loud enough that everyone can hear that he's whispering nothings. And he's, like, talking about his horse and the wet drains and, like, whatever. And he's slowly unbuttoning her glove. And he's watching her. And at first she seems, like, completely unmoved. And then she starts to get a little doe eyed. And then he's like, he starts to notice his pulse. Like, his heart beginning to race. And he's, like, measuring his heartbeat against the buttons of her glove. And then he realizes that he's no longer talking about his horse and the weather. He's actually telling her in Italian all the nasty, dirty things he wants to do to her.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And he is losing his mind.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, my God. I mean, he's like. It's like this.

[Sarah MacLean]

And read, like, in you as the reader. Like, you're getting breathless.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, absolutely.

[Sarah MacLean]

And you're convinced Jess is in it.

[Jen Prokop]

Mm.

[Sarah MacLean]

And then it all smacks him over the head.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, God. It's this amazing moment where she's like, I'm sorry. And he was like, sorry for what? And she's like, I'm sorry for what this will do to your reputation. Right. Like.

[Sarah MacLean]

And he's like, I'm the one unbuttoning your glove. It's your reputation.

[Jen Prokop]

He's like, you're in a salon with a lady making love to her In Italian, unbuttoning her glove like, you're never gonna recover. I. Awkward.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. She's like. And she raises her voice just a touch, and she says. And the Marquis of Dayne is in love.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

He's like, what have you done?

[Jen Prokop]

Right?

[Sarah MacLean]

And she basically is the only thing. Like, he cannot allow anybody to believe that he has care for anything feelings. Because Matt. Because that poor little boy who, like, built up this wall around him himself, like, cannot feel. If he does, he'll feel pain.

[Jen Prokop]

Right?

[Sarah MacLean]

Because nobody has ever been kind to him. Not that Dane knows all of this. Dain is right.

[Jen Prokop]

Of course.

[Sarah MacLean]

Not Absolutely dumb about all of his feelings.

[Jen Prokop]

Sure.

[Sarah MacLean]

Which is what makes him, like, a perfect alpha. We'll get to it.

[Jen Prokop]

But, yeah, what she says to him is, like, if you don't let go of my hand, I'm gonna kiss you. Right? And she. And the thing that's amazing about it is, like, we understand from that. She really means, like, I am super into this. And we are like, we blew way past something we shouldn't have blown through. And he. He cannot believe that she would feel this way about him.

[Sarah MacLean]

No. He takes it as a threat. And he starts to question her. Like, he starts to question everything about her. Like, he has read her as being very honest and forthright, right? Which is part of why he's so, like, drawn to her. And truthfully, she is right. He is correct. He is correct and should be. But in that moment, he so can't believe that she would want him.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

That anyone would want him. Like, he's paid for sex and he has this. Like, we ultimately discover that he has a son with somebody who was manipulating him for money, right? There's a story about him being manipulated. Like, him being, like, tricked into kissing a woman. And then, like, out from the head, she pops her mom, right?

[Jen Prokop]

And all of a sudden, he's gonna get married. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, so, like, he is used to being manipulated by women into believing that they want him for himself and then lied to.

[Jen Prokop]

Right? So this moment where she really is. I mean. And then. I mean, is this when he kisses her? It's like, right after this scene, right?

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Jen Prokop]

He. Oh, no, no, it's not right. It's. It's a couple weeks.

[Sarah MacLean]

He doesn't kiss her in this scene.

[Jen Prokop]

No, no. Right. It's later, right? She goes to his house. She thinks she knows Birdie is there, and he. There's this amazing bet that gets placed. It's like, one of my favorite fucking bet. Jesus Christ. Anyway, one of the, like, shitty friends. Right? Yeah. Says he'll follow her somewhere. That's the first thing. Right. And then they're like, he's gonna follow her, and it's just like, such a, like, really specific way of, like, noting that he'll be besotted. Right. So, you know, she shows up at Birdie's house, he's drunk. Or Birdie is at his house, he's drunk. And she basically walks in on Dan.

[Sarah MacLean]

With, like, a room cover full of prostitutes.

[Jen Prokop]

Yes. And she's basically like, sorry, I didn't mean. Awkward. I'm gonna leave now. Right. And just turns around and he chases after her. And, you know, he's like, half.

[Sarah MacLean]

And Vautri has to pay.

[Jen Prokop]

Yes. He's half clothed. And they, like, end up in a street beneath a lamp. Like a lamppost. Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. Oh, it's so sexy.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, God.

[Sarah MacLean]

Right, So I want to talk about two things here. I want to talk about the fact that I want to talk about two writing things. If you don't mind. Let me craft for two points. One point, that's all I want to talk about on an earlier episode. And I apologize for maybe. Because I feel like we've had this conversation, so. But hang on. That's my second point. My first point is the only reason why all this works is because on page, and I hadn't realized this until this moment is because on page 42, we hear Jess say, shit, I'm in love. Like, I want him.

[Jen Prokop]

I want him.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like, we know from before anything. Like, she meets him in the store. She hasn't decided to. How she's like, how she's gonna play this Birdie thing. And she comes back to her grandmother, and in a moment of pure authenticity, she says, I want him. I want him. And so we, as the reader are like, okay, she wants him, and we maybe want him too. Like, she's seeing something in him that. Like, she's seeing something in him that, like, we already know from the prologue. It's just so perfectly knit together structurally from a writing perspective. Because at no point, we believe Dane. We believe two things. And what Loretta Chase does for us is she lays two things out from the start. One is Dane does not believe he is lovable. And two is Jess believes Dane is lovable from the start.

[Jen Prokop]

From the jump. That's right. That's right.

[Sarah MacLean]

So there is no moment where we. We both understand the misunderstanding. Right?

[Jen Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

We go for the ride with Dane thinking that she can't love him and she must be lying. And we go for and the. And we believe that. All while knowing that he is wrong. Right. And so, like, what's amazing here, craft wise, is she's. Loretta Chase is able to basically build an entire romance novel on a misunderstanding. Like, on a. On the idea that one person would think the other person is lying without them actually lying. Yeah.

[Jen Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

It shouldn't. It should be. It should get boring.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well, perfect.

[Jen Prokop]

I would also point out that for me, the other layer is Genevieve. Like, Right. The grandmother is essentially, like, I've been around the block a few times, and he wants you. It's gonna happen, so you might as well be the one in the driver's seat, or else you're gonna get pulled under the wheels.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Jen Prokop]

And I think the layer that adds then is we know that Jess is, like, kind of playing to win only because she thinks and understands that there's no way this clash of the titans isn't gonna end up.

[Sarah MacLean]

Do we think that Jess. Do you think Jess thinks they're gonna end up together?

[Jen Prokop]

I think.

[Sarah MacLean]

I think she thinks they're gonna end.

[Jen Prokop]

Up, like, in bed.

[Sarah MacLean]

Boring.

[Jen Prokop]

Yes. Right. For sure. I don't think she thinks it's clear.

[Sarah MacLean]

To her that marriage is on the table.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, no, I agree. But I think at that.

[Sarah MacLean]

In the early moment.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah. But I. Even the part that's fascinating and I. We can get back to the kissing in a minute. Is she understands that they are being like, they're on display. All of Paris is watching them, and she has to play her part. She can' embarrass him.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yep.

[Jen Prokop]

Like the part where they're both invited to the same ball, and she knows that he might not show up, but if he does show up and she's not perfectly quaffed and perfectly dressed and amazingly turned out. She does. And it's a really fascinating.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Jen Prokop]

Right. Like, she's like, look, I don't like the parts we're playing. I wish it wasn't public. But since it is, I. We have to follow through.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Jen Prokop]

And there's a sense for. Of her understanding that there are rules and boundaries. And he, of course, doesn't play by those rules. We've seen this already. But she still thinks that there are rules.

[Sarah MacLean]

Right. Well. But also part of the reason why she has to be perfect for him is because she's aware, like, she has his number. She understands what he thinks about himself. Like, there's something. It's really romantic, and it's a beautiful gift she gives him every time she turns up and she plays that part. And she's Perfect. She's giving him a gift, which is the most beautiful woman in Paris is.

[Jen Prokop]

Yours is lust with you.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah, yeah. And, like, he can and with you deal, right? He cannot deal. So also, I want to briefly talk about this wager. The way that. Oh, yeah, Loretta uses vautry. So Vautri, who is in debt and needs money, the POV shifts to him every time there's a wager. And it shifts like it's sort of like it pulls out to a third party who's looking, like, who's looking in on it. And Vautri's constantly, like, there's no way.

[Jen Prokop]

Dane will ever do this. Right?

[Sarah MacLean]

Like, it's just so completely. It's unfathomable that he would do this. So, yes, I'll take the wager. In fact, I won't take it for 150. I'll take it for 200. Right? And then, so, like, we, as the reader are given this second look at him. Like, he's. He's unshakable, right? Like, and then. So when he's shaken, we are. We're. It's. It's activated as a reminder that, like, this is huge. The things that are happening are. Are exponentially bigger.

[Jen Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

Again, it's just such thoughtful, skilled writing.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, yeah. It's amazing, right? It's so perfect.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. So let's talk about Shoot me. So, like, we talked about this. The.

[Jen Prokop]

Can we talk about the sticks? The fan and the sticks?

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, yeah. Let's talk about that first.

[Jen Prokop]

Just because I hate.

[Sarah MacLean]

I want to read that part because I love it. All right.

[Jen Prokop]

You find it. I just want to say, everyone I know it's wrong to love this.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, my God.

[Jen Prokop]

I have reread this scene a thousand times. Except it's not wrong a thousand times, right?

[Sarah MacLean]

Except it is not wrong to love it.

[Jen Prokop]

Well, so this is the ball, right? Like, they've had this wild kiss out in the. You know, under the lamppost. And, you know, Dane, of course, feels like, oh, my God, I took advantage of her. She goes back and tells her grandmother I had to, like, beat him into kissing me for real, right? Like, she knows what she's doing, and he is just, like, misunderstanding everything, and yet he cannot keep himself from showing up at this ball, right? And so she's had this fan of sticks, right? And, like, the gentleman writes his name on it, and that's who the dance is with. And she's left a couple blank in case he shows up. But now it's like, midnight, and he.

[Sarah MacLean]

You know, because he.

[Jen Prokop]

A whiff of brimstone and the dick.

[Sarah MacLean]

And he didn't show up.

[Jen Prokop]

I think it actually literally says that. Yeah. You know, and it's midnight and he like sweeps in. Yeah, right. And he goes right to her and.

[Sarah MacLean]

He says, we'll dance. And she's like, no, we won't. I saved you dances and you didn't turn up. And I'm giving. I gave him away. So I already have a partner. And he's like, yeah, you have me. Like I'm here, it's me. And she's like. And she holds her fan up and she says, look carefully. Do you see Beelzebub written there? And he says, I'm not short sighted. And he takes the fan from her. You needn't hold it so close. Ah, yes. Is this the one? He pointed to a stick. Ruvier. Yes, she said, looking past him. Here he comes. Dane turned. A Frenchman was warily approaching, his countenance pale. Dane fanned himself with the fan. The man paused, smiling. Dane pressed thumb and forefinger to the stick with Ruvier written on it. It snapped. Ruvier went away.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[Sarah MacLean]

I love it.

[Jen Prokop]

So then he break all the sticks.

[Sarah MacLean]

Stick everyone. He gives. He shoves a fan into a fern. And then. This is why. It is not wrong that you love it, Jen. This is why I will go to my grave defending everyone who loves this scene. It was a primitive display, Jessica told herself, on the scale of social development. It was about one notch above hitting her over the head with a club and dragging her away by her hair. Only Dane could get away with it. Just as only he could clear the field of rival simply by telling them, without the smallest self consciousness or subtlety or subtlety to go away. And only she, besotted lunatic that she was right, would find it all dizzyingly romantic.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, it's so good. It is the ultimate. Mine. It is mine, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine.

[Jen Prokop]

It's breaking sticks. Mine.

[Sarah MacLean]

Right? It's demon seal just fucking broken.

[Jen Prokop]

It is. Of course we love it. Right? Of course we love it.

[Sarah MacLean]

It is.

[Jen Prokop]

And you know what? She loves it. And she loves it.

[Sarah MacLean]

He's been blooded, he's been blood. And he just can't. He cannot deal. He is a Roth brother.

[Jen Prokop]

It's not true. Yeah, well. And then they dance and he's got the sexy continental style wrecking thing. I'm like, I don't know what that means.

[Sarah MacLean]

You're like, I'm with you.

[Jen Prokop]

So I think the part about. And the thing that it was funny for me, like rereading. Rereading. Which I, of course, have read this book a million times, but I very rarely read it through. Right from beginning to end is I had sort of forgotten how long it really is until we get to this moment. And then it's right after the breaking of the Styx that he takes her out into the gardens and he, like there.

[Sarah MacLean]

He ruins her.

[Jen Prokop]

He ruins her, right? And they are both really into it and she is totally down with it all till they see that people are.

[Sarah MacLean]

Watching, Then they are found. And he thinks he has like a flashback, right? To. So he has a. This is why. Yes. You were ready to go here first. So he has a flashback to the woman who he also. To a different woman who he also believed loved him.

[Jen Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Who he also kissed in the gardens and whose mother leapt out of a hedge.

[Jen Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

And when he finally goes to do the right thing and marry this woman, he reads that they are like hosing him, like, for like every. Like every inch of money that they can get, right? And he is. And so he says, I'm leaving. And her father says, you've done a terrible thing, like, I should call you out. And he says, so shoot me.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And it's the first time we see those words on the page.

[Jen Prokop]

Mm.

[Sarah MacLean]

And then he disappears into. In current. In current Paris. He disappears to his, you know, passel of women. And then he says. And. And she turns up and he's. What? Drunk? Oh.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah. But she is like. I mean, this is not accidental. She goes home, she puts on like a red dress. She like, lays a mantello.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. I missed the part where she says, you ruined me. You have to marry me. Like there's.

[Jen Prokop]

You can protect me.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. You have to protect me. And he says, shoot me.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah. And it's this fascinating moment where she immediately does all the calculus about what this is gonna mean for her life and how.

[Sarah MacLean]

Because women have to.

[Jen Prokop]

Yes, yes. And she knows what it means. She also knows that this is reprehensible. Right. Like they were in it together. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Fuck this guy. Oh.

[Jen Prokop]

And so she is like. I mean, and it.

[Sarah MacLean]

This is real risky. Like, this is Lori really taking the finger because he is unforgivably mean at this point.

[Jen Prokop]

And he. It's really interesting. We get, you know, again, we know what he's thinking, but the fact that she is so clear headed and he is not, right. And we have seen this again and again, but the stakes right here are so high. And he cannot, like, put Together, like, wait, those are my friends. And the reason they're watching these are these assholes I don't even really like. And he is completely unable to do any of the, like, like, right mental calculations that she does in a split second. And he does. He just takes off and leaves her, like, leaves her to the mercies of these gossips. And, you know, she's ruined. And there's. It's going to get back to London in, you know, days. And it's all. It's all done, right? She's done. And she has been fighting and fighting, fighting to not be, like a spit.

[Sarah MacLean]

You know what I mean?

[Jen Prokop]

To, like, be in charge of her own life. And this one moment is gonna ruin it all for her. And I think that it's really important that we've seen her, how hard she's worked, to essentially be her own woman at this point. Right. It's not just some dumb young schoolgirl, like, getting ruined. Like, this is like, she's like, I am right now.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Jen Prokop]

I am well and truly.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like, yeah, she had a plan. She had a life mapped out. She's not young. She's not stupid. She's very calculated in everything. And she, as you said, like, she's hunting big game and she thought she could do it and then she let her go. They both let their guard.

[Jen Prokop]

Their guard down. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

But, like, he let his guard down and misjudged her as being worse than she was. She let her guard down and misjudged him as being better.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And that sucks. She's furious. But I think she's also sad. Like, I think she's also.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, yeah, disappointed.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, disappointed in herself, in him. Like, she. Like. It's just awful what he's done.

[Jen Prokop]

It's awful.

[Sarah MacLean]

He deserves cold storage forever or to be shot.

[Jen Prokop]

I. It's cold storage or shooting.

[Sarah MacLean]

Fine. And as we know, ice is tough in the Regency.

[Jen Prokop]

Right? So. Yeah. I mean, but it's fascinating too, because, like, right, so she. And it's Sarah. Do we get her, like, going home and getting dressed and planning. No, she. It's also really interesting, Right? You can't.

[Sarah MacLean]

You can't have it because you can't know what she's. I mean, like, the last line of chapter seven is, she pulled the trigger. Right?

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And like, the moment that that happens, it has to be, like, the only way.

[Jen Prokop]

We have to be as surprised as he is.

[Sarah MacLean]

You have to feel shot, too.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And the whole. Look, romance readers feel shot because the heroine doesn't shoot the hero. That's not a thing that happens. It happens later in a Beverly Jenkins. In Beverly Jenkins, right after this. And there is, I think, a heir. This is another moment that's a Heyer nod. There is a Haier novel where the heroine shoots the hero, but it does not read like this. It's a different kind of thing. But. So he shoots her and then my. Or she shoots him. And my favorite thing is everyone's going crazy. And the way that this is written is very much a distant pov. Right.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, for sure.

[Sarah MacLean]

He gets shot and then the POV moves to, like 30,000ft and tells. And, like, it's like watching a movie. Yes. So everyone's going cuckoo. They're all like. All.

[Jen Prokop]

The clock happens.

[Sarah MacLean]

Ringing around.

[Jen Prokop]

She's like, I'm gonna go turn myself in the police. Like, the doctor's gonna be called police. She's. I love that.

[Sarah MacLean]

Turns herself in and they're like, a passionate woman.

[Jen Prokop]

Will send you home. Have some tea.

[Sarah MacLean]

And literally, what she. And it turns out it becomes clear.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

That what she has done is set him up. Because there is literally nothing that he can do where it doesn't seem like he's been. He's been like, she's had one over on him.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, yeah. It's so fucking brilliant.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well, she goes. What's interesting is then she sends her.

[Jen Prokop]

Lawyer in, which is, again, grandmother's boyfriend is like, let me get you the best lawyer in town.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. And so, like. And she sends her lawyer in to basically say, you've ruined my reputation. And it's. I can't. I'm clearly not ever going to be able to be married. And so now you owe me a per annum. And also, like, everything. Yeah.

[Jen Prokop]

Like a small island, perhaps.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. Mental damage.

[Jen Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like all of that emotional. Emotional damages. And it's gonna cost you a fucking lot of money.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And then he says. And then this is another. It's cat. It's cat versus cat. Right. So here, Jess is, like, riding high.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

He says, well, I'm not in the practice of buying things, of paying for things that don't. That then don't belong to me.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah. Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

So we'll get married. Married.

[Jen Prokop]

And there's this brilliant moment, and this is, I think, the first of many. Yeah. But it's also the first of many moments where she really is able to then see through, like, for, like. Right. She's like, oh, right. He's. So there's this kernel of longing in what he wants. And he doesn't think I'm gonna do It. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

She hears uncertainty. Like, he laughs in this, like, supercilious, arrogant way.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And she hears it, and she hears the uncertainty, the little boy in him. Like, oh, it's so good.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah. And this is.

[Sarah MacLean]

She loves him. She loves him.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah. And this is when I think we really get the sense of her being, like, oh, I. It's not that he was, like, better than I thought he was. It was that, like, he's less mature than I thought he was. Like, there's something in him that's real broken, and I'm gonna have to treat him like a. It's. It's. It's. I don't think it's infantilizing. It doesn't bother me. But that, like, something about her insight about raising these, like, 10 boy cousins has given her to like him beyond a man, but, like, to something more vulnerable underneath. It worked for me. Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, and I. With.

[Jen Prokop]

And I. Yeah, we see it a lot, right? When he gets drunk on their wedding night, when he. All those things, she's able to kind of be like, wait, what the fuck is this dumbass doing? Right?

[Sarah MacLean]

And then. Well, what's really interesting is that the POV out. Like, she's really fucking with POV too.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like, in really interesting ways, like, throughout the whole book. But, like, these scenes are remarkable because, like, the POV goes, like, almost fully omniscient, right? Yes. In these scenes. So we hear Jess. We see Jess hear his uncertainty. We see Jess do all the calculus of, like, should I say yes? Like, is this a good risk? Like, am I right in what I've heard? And then she says, yes, right? Like, she basically says, like, I should give anything to be a fly on the wall. When you explained our betrothal to your friends Beelzebub. And then this line. He stared at her, afraid to trust his hearing. Trust is a really interesting word there, Right? Sure. Like, it could have been written in a number of different ways, but trust is like, look, there's no question. Loretta Chase wrote every word here intentionally. Trust is the word she uses because suddenly we're in Dane's head and he's going, oh, my God, I just won her. Yeah, right?

[Jen Prokop]

I fucked it up so bad. She shot me. But I. It's fine. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

I get to have the icon.

[Jen Prokop]

Yep. Yeah. And his unwillingness to. At this point, he goes, like, full. Like, what is the most respectable way to do this? We're going back to London. We're getting. We're gonna read the bands. We're gonna St. George's Hanover fucking square, which I had to look up. We're gonna do all this in the way that it is done.

[Sarah MacLean]

Because now here's the deal, Right? I'm sorry.

[Jen Prokop]

No, that's it.

[Sarah MacLean]

I cut you off because I got so excited, because this is another moment where, as a writer, it's important. Paris gives Loretta freedom to do these crazy things and take the finger. Right. England makes it. It tightens the reins again, Right?

[Jen Prokop]

Yep.

[Sarah MacLean]

So what begins as Beauty and the beast now 40% of the way through the book.

[Jen Prokop]

P.S.

[Sarah MacLean]

In the hands of literally anyone else, including myself, the book's over. Is now at 80%. Yeah. I mean it. But we are 40% of the way. Like, the fact that all of this has happened and we're not even halfway is bonkers to me. So we're gonna get on a boat, we're gonna go back to England, and suddenly we're marriage in trouble. And all the reins have all tightened. Have tightened. It's now like two married people falling in love. And it is a completely different book after this. Like, it is. And it's fascinating, magnificent, and cannot figure it out.

[Jen Prokop]

Well, pacing wise, how it works. It should not work.

[Sarah MacLean]

It should not work.

[Jen Prokop]

And so this is where I want to talk about internal and external conflict. Because up until this point, the conflict has completely been between the two of them.

[Sarah MacLean]

Mm.

[Jen Prokop]

And then we. And that still exists. I mean, there's these hilarious fucking scenes where Dane's like, I'm gonna break her in half with my solid, you know, my huge, massive penis or whatever. Right. Like, my penis is so big. You know, you're just so dainty. I'm gonna fuck you in half. Right. I mean, so we get all of this, like, all of this internal stuff from him. And certainly we get. You know, there's sort of some business around planning the wedding, and she's, like, sort of overwrought with it, and then he takes care of it or whatever. But it's really fascinating the way the pacing changes to then pretty quickly being the. The external conflict of the pressure with friends with Beaumont setting them up, and then the arrival of Dominic. And I feel like I'm gonna say something which is like, again, this is a personal me as a reader, I often feel like authors create a lot of really strong internal conflict and then solve it with some external crisis. And it almost never works for me. And rereading Lord of Scoundrels, I was like, that's because she makes it look so easy. And it's really hard to do. And I Think there's a lot of reasons. The external conflict that does sort of like, bring it all to a head at the end works is because she has been laying the groundwork for it all along. But I feel like this is like. To me, it's almost like, you know, everyone's like, oh, yeah. Like, that's how it works in Lord of Scoundrels. And I'm like, it's not.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Jen Prokop]

And so it's just really interesting because the whole second act is marriage in trouble.

[Sarah MacLean]

And then the third act is like, it's internal again. Yes, the third act. I mean, like, whatever. Charity Graves and whatever.

[Jen Prokop]

No, none of that matters.

[Sarah MacLean]

All of that. It doesn't matter. The third act is internal again. And it also shouldn't work for me because I hate children. But so, I mean, not my own. My own is fine. Yours is nice, too. But the, like, the point is that, like, children way of solving a problem, hard to do it. They're just a mess. And Dominic's whole structure is. I mean, like, Dominic is on the page for. Because here's the deal. Dane cannot ever believe he is lovable. He cannot ever believe it. So the second act of this book is Jess, like, kind of showing him that, like, she loves him, he's lovable. Like, they can make this work. But he's. And he's, like, writing it off over and over and over again. Like, I like, fine, we have great sex.

[Jen Prokop]

But I think that's why they have to fuck in the cemetery. Because I think that's when he finally, like, that finally dies. I gotta say that. Like, I don't know. Like, the part where, like, she realizes he's acting like a jerk.

[Sarah MacLean]

Where does that happen in the book?

[Jen Prokop]

Well, here's the thing, though. Here's the moment, though, that happens before. I mean, they're having this huge battle of wills, right?

[Sarah MacLean]

Fun fact. My high school. One of my, like, good friends from high school lost her virginity in a. In a cemetery. So.

[Jen Prokop]

Well, there you go.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, where else are you gonna go when you're a teenager? Why not? I mean, go on.

[Jen Prokop]

Sure. But they go to this, like, wrestling match, and she's really pissed. Why are we doing this?

[Sarah MacLean]

She's, like, gotten him all hot and bothered. And then he's mad there because he.

[Jen Prokop]

And then he says, you know, I could have been, like, at home comfortably pumping my wife.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's like the most ridiculous line.

[Jen Prokop]

And she's like, wait. Comfortable. Like, he's happy, right? And he has been just, like, grousing around, like, stomping. Around like the beast. And I think that then, like, he's like. He literally drags her off and they fuck in the cemetery. And it is really.

[Sarah MacLean]

And you think that that's because obviously, like, yes, he is happy, but he's constantly waiting. He doesn't believe she is. And then she does that. That thing where she just decides to agree with him all the time.

[Jen Prokop]

But that's after. No, I mean, like, look, this all happens all at once, right? Because it is literally after this thing in the cemetery, which, again, for any other author, the book would have been ended that then Charity Graves and Dominic appear.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well, because I think Loretta realizes that it's not enough.

[Jen Prokop]

It's not enough.

[Sarah MacLean]

Love from Jess is not gonna. So here's the thing. If you think about, like, if you think about Dane, like, as the center, right? Like, on a spectrum, there's like his past is him having spent 30 some odd years, like, believing that he was unlovable, believing that he will never be loved, believing he will never deserve it, even if he gets it. It's always ephemeral, right? It can always be lost. And then there's like this heartbeat of time, like, what, three months, six months, where they're like. Where he's happy, but it's not even that long.

[Jen Prokop]

I don't think.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah, I don't even think it is even, like, happiness is in grasp, but, like, happiness is bullshit. Happiness doesn't last. Like, happiness is none of those things. And the reality is that Jess could say it to him until they die and he would never believe it because he has never experienced any other kind of love.

[Jen Prokop]

Right, Right. Well, and I think this is why, like, to me, these, like, two scenes are really the scenes where we see, like, Dane level up, right? Like, he gets shot and then Dominic appears. And in both of these scenes, the key. The key thing is just being like, you should have done better. You should have protected me. And then in this part, it's like, I can't believe you let him get away, you fucking idiot. You had your son in your hands and you let him go. And Dane was like, that's not the way I thought this was gonna go at all. I thought you were gonna say, how dare you have this bastard son? And she's like, you idiot. Like, you idiot, you let him go. You needed to do better. You needed to protect him.

[Sarah MacLean]

Me.

[Jen Prokop]

And now you need to protect him.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, right? Isn't this, like. This is just one of those moments where you're like, God, it feels so real because it's like, I feel like that's all women do all the time, is be like, you need to do better. You need to treat me better. You need to treat the world better.

[Jen Prokop]

Like, do better.

[Sarah MacLean]

Men do better.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like, yeah. And this is. I mean, like, every time, you know, we had. We did our Alpha episode and we talked over and over again about how, like, what patriarchy means when it's on the page, what toxic messages masculinity means when it's on the page, how toxic masculinity is so dangerous for men, too. And, like, this book hits that every time he is standing in his own way, every page of this book. And it is because he cannot get out from underneath the toxicity.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah. Yes, absolutely.

[Sarah MacLean]

And it is so perfectly done because she is just banging her head against the wall, like, constantly.

[Jen Prokop]

And so this is when she basically goes into, like, fine, I'm gonna give you what you want. I'm gonna agree with everything you say.

[Sarah MacLean]

I defy any wife to tell me that she has not at one point or another said, fine.

[Jen Prokop]

Fuck it. Yeah, totally.

[Sarah MacLean]

This is fine for me.

[Jen Prokop]

Like, no.

[Sarah MacLean]

Cause sometimes you're just like, I can't fucking do this. I don't wanna fight patriarchy. I know. In this moment.

[Jen Prokop]

I know.

[Sarah MacLean]

Fine, do whatever you want. Yes, you can build that IKEA shelf. You're right.

[Jen Prokop]

I think it is. I mean, but this is it. And that's the part that, again, like, structurally, like, we've got these three acts.

[Sarah MacLean]

Magnificent.

[Jen Prokop]

And it is. And I just want to point this out, like, craft wise. I think that's why when we say Lord of Scoundrels is one of the best romances ever, it is. This is what I'm talking about.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's because. And I'm gonna probably get in trouble for saying this, but it's because it transcends the genre in every way. It really does. Like, it is a book that if somebody came to me and said, I think romance is useless, I think it's silly, I've never seen a romance have nuance or, like, obviously, we know that's not true. Jen and I talk every week about books that are great, but this is a book I feel I could hand to any fan, anybody who reads literary fiction and say, this book is perfectly constructed. It is not like it transcends the genre. And there are maybe five romances that I feel that way about. Like, that are perfect as, like, in any. Like, in any school of thought.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, there are many, many more that I think are perfect romances.

[Jen Prokop]

Right?

[Sarah MacLean]

And like I don't expect. I don't want my romance. The other thing is, is this book should absolutely not work for me on every level. Because I don't want my books to be more than romances. Like, or different than like, not more. More is the wrong word. But like I don't want my words, my book, books to be literary fiction.

[Jen Prokop]

Of course not. But I think it, it's. And that's like a really interesting comment because I, I am the same way. But as a romance. It is also so perfect, right, that I'm like okay, fine, it's doing other things. But also it's pretty fucking great.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean also like the level of research, the level of sentence. The sentence like write down the sentences like she is. This is a magnificent. Like are there problems with it? Are there things from 1995 that like do not fly, do not play in 2019. Yes. Do I care. Ish. But like does it matter really? Does it change the power of it? No. Not even a little for me.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean like really I could do without the fat shaming. I could do without.

[Jen Prokop]

I could really do without her virgin white flesh and him his dark like that. I'm all like.

[Sarah MacLean]

I could do without the like the like. There are moments of that subplot with the queer guy who like the guy like poly guy that don't write, they don't read right anymore. And I acknowledge all that. Like this was all. We've said this from the start. You can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. And like this book has so. It's so perfect on so many levels. I had a whole rant about Byron.

[Jen Prokop]

I am curious about it.

[Sarah MacLean]

We're like at an hour and 21 minutes. I mean I just like. So there's a whole. She reads him when they get back to London, when they get back to England. There's this moment where she sort of picks up Byron and he's got Byron's Don Juan which had been published several years earlier. And she says, oh, you're a like look. Don Juan is so interestingly, it's very meta. The Byronic hero. I mean like Dain really is a Byronic hero. This sort of like cold, impenetrable, romantic, like windswept, dark like dark haired, dark eyed like hero who then like through love is like, has no understanding of emotions whatsoever and then through love is redeemed.

[Jen Prokop]

Mm.

[Sarah MacLean]

But so we see this. So there's that sort of meta moment where Loretta's kind of winking at everyone and saying like, oh, look, he's reading Don Juan, the ultimate Byronic hero. And he is one. But no, Byron is terrible. Pause, record scratch. Byron is the fucking worst, you guys. He is name checked in every romance novel from a certain time as being, like, this remarkable, like, wonderful person. He wasn't. He was fucking awful. He had a terrible childhood and he had a terrible father who then, like, bred a terrible son who was also a terrible father. He slept with anything that moved. He had multiple affairs. He slept with. He had an affair with his half sister while she was married and got a s. She got pregnant. It is widely believed that her child is his child.

[Jen Prokop]

Wow.

[Sarah MacLean]

He slept with his cousin, also got her pregnant. They were both married at the time, his legitimate wife. So there was a scandal and he had to get married real quick. He married his actual wife, had a daughter. Oh, these were all girls, by the way. So, like, super great dad, great representation for the girls. He had an actual real daughter who he left when she was, like, 16 months old or 18 months old. He never returned to meet her again. Partially this was because his actual wife, Lady Byron, was like, I don't want you anywhere near my daughter. Like, you're gross and awful. And that daughter was Ada Lovelace, who was the first computer programmer. That's amazing and is magnificent in every way. And became a computer programmer because her mother was like, no, you will never be a poet. You will learn math and science. Like, I want you nowhere near your father. So that is the one bright spot I will like. He was terrible. He also slept with Mary Shelley's cousin. He was friends with the Shellys and is actually. I think this is probably false because I think it's men saying that men have more power than men do. But there is, like, this legend that the reason why Mary Shelley wrote Frankenstein is because Byron, Percy Shelley, and Mary Shelley were all hanging around one day and they were discussing who could come up with the scariest.

[Jen Prokop]

Sure, I've heard this version. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

So she wrote. She came up with Frankenstein. Whatever. I mean, like, he's just terrible. Apparently, he slept with her cousin and, like, never called, like, ghosted the cousin and left her pregnant. And then when that daughter was born, he was. So he clearly had a falling out with the Shellys. Surprise, surprise.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And he refused to let his daughter, that daughter, live with the Shellys. So he shipped. He sent, like. He basically told this woman that he was going to. He'd give her money, but only if she left England and the Shelleys and never went back. And he was just A monster. He's terrible. Like, I get it. He wrote some great poetry. But, like, bleh, Be better.

[Jen Prokop]

You know, one of my favorite. It's ironic. My favorite. Be better, man. One of my favorite, favorite English classes in college was about the Romantics. And I really remember we did Les Byron and a lot more like Wordsworth and Shelley.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, he hated Wordsworth. He called Wordsworth Turdsworth. So this is the kind of, like, Cracker Jack mind we're dealing with.

[Jen Prokop]

Well, I just want to say thank you, Dr. Radcliffe, all these years later, because clearly you did me a solid. We didn't do a whole lot of Byron.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, like, look, she walks in beauty. Like the night is beautiful. But I bet he didn't.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah, I bet it's one of his.

[Sarah MacLean]

Wives and one of his girlfriends wrote it and he stole it.

[Jen Prokop]

It's like you.

[Sarah MacLean]

That's my new theory. Let's pass that around. Internet.

[Jen Prokop]

What's it called when you have, like, the Shakespeare, like, the author. You know the author, you just, like, created your own Byron one. Like, I bet he didn't write it. It was like, the Duke of Somerville or some shit like that. Blah. That's terrible.

[Sarah MacLean]

Terrible, terrible person.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, but her reading Don Juan to him is.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh. Oh, but actually, all of this is to say, I've now ranted about this, but so that wonderful passage where she reads Don Juan to him, she acts so Loretta is brilliant. She's brilliant and she's so smart. And I know she does a shit ton of research. And so she name checks three stanzas. In the second canto of Don Juan, the first is stanza, and at each point, he, Dane, literally comes closer, comes closer to Jess. And the first one is a stanza that's basically about a very old man with a very young wife and the downfall of their marriage, which is an echo of his past. The second is about a journey, about Don Juan being sent. Being sent on a ship away to school, to Paris, like, making a choice. Like, he, Don Juan goes away wherever on a Spanish ship. But again, this is sort of Dane's second act, right? Being sent away. And then the Canto 14, or Stanza 14, which is all about being, like, leaving home, like, leaving his past, like, leaving Spain. And there's this wonderful line that says, again, I don't think Byron wrote it. And it goes. There is a sort of unexpressed concern, a kind of shock that sets one's heart ajar at leaving even the most unpleasant people and places. One keeps looking at the steeple, he keeps looking back he keeps. He can't. He can't pull himself away. No matter how far away he is from his youth, from his foibles, from his pain as a child, he'll always look back until love and love in multiple ways. And responsibility. Like, that's the thing about Don Juan, right? Like, he's a great lover, but, like, he never has responsibility, whereas Dane has.

[Jen Prokop]

Well, but I also think that the gift that Jessica gives him is not just like that. I love you, and I'm gonna show you that you can be a father to this son and that you have a responsibility to him. But one of the most poignant things about the book to me is that she gives him back his mother. And she's like, he tells her this, you know, she finds the portrait and she. And. And then she hears the story, and she's, like, outraged at what they did to this girl and points out that, like, he. She left him somewhere safe. And I will say I found this, like, reading it again, to be just like her. Just how. And one of my favorite things about this book is her. Her whole thing is like, you're so high strung and emotional, you know, you just need to calm down. And he, of course, never thinks of himself this way, but then he, like, understands that she's right and that she's so common sense about it, right? And when he. And she reframes, like, literally reframes his mother for him, not just like the actual picture, but, like, the story of who she was and what happened to her. And then this is like. Right? And then when he goes to get Dominic, and it's like she wants to go, and he's like, no, you can't come. It's too dangerous. But he needed to do it by himself. And then his arm starts working again, and it's like, oh, Sarah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well, it's very Jane Eyre that part. But also. No, I just want to. I want to underscore that, the way Jessica thinks of him, because at one point, like, 85% of the way through the book, she thinks Dane did not handle his emotional problems well. He had only three methods for dealing with bother. Knock it down, frighten it away, or buy it off. And when the methods didn't work, he was at a loss. And so he had a tantrum. Oh, do you have it, too?

[Jen Prokop]

Oh, hell yes, I do. I was like, this is like, the best.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's so good. But it's such. It goes back to that alpha thing, right? Like that we talked about.

[Jen Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

Alphas don't understand feelings.

[Jen Prokop]

So it's like, what do I hit?

[Sarah MacLean]

Like.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

How do I punt?

[Jen Prokop]

What stick do I break?

[Sarah MacLean]

How do I kill it? Right?

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And how do I. How do I end feeling? Like, how do I make myself not feel? And you can't. You can't, because feelings are real, and they're good, and they're pure, and they are how we get to love.

[Jen Prokop]

Oh. And then, you know what? Like, when Dominic comes and I mean, again, like, the way that Jessica handles, like, Charity Graves and is like, look, just take this money and run. And you know what? Like, I'm gonna make this. Make. I just want. You know? And it's really interesting because it never feels like Charity never really wanted Dominic anyway. So we're sympathetic to, like, this separation between the mother and the son. I think otherwise would be honestly real gross. But, you know, she'd never really been interested in mothering. But one of my favorite lines in this book, and it's so silly, is like, you know, Jessica and Dane are, like, asleep, and finally, it's, like, kind of everything settled. The next morning, Dominic's, like, running through the house, and he's like, I wonder what Mary, like, the nurse or whatever, fed him for breakfast. Gunpowder. Like, and it's really. I think the other thing, too, is, you know, going back to, like, the idea of Dane being a father, which is how this had to end, is now that he has a little boy, he can't be the little boy anymore.

[Sarah MacLean]

No, no. It's really interesting. I know that people hate, like, a lot of people hate the baby log. We've talked about this before, Right. And in this case, it's not exactly a baby log, but the. I think this book had to end this way. He had to end up with a child.

[Jen Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like, a family that loves him and that he can love.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's really. It's magnificent. I hope we did it justice. I. Please tell us all about it. Tell us all about everything we got wrong. Kate Claiborne has, like, a manifesto for us. I'm sure by now.

[Jen Prokop]

I mean, it's almost like there's so much to talk about.

[Sarah MacLean]

It really is. I feel like we could do a whole season on this book. We're not. We're not doing that.

[Jen Prokop]

Source material.

[Sarah MacLean]

Source material.

[Jen Prokop]

Hashtag source material.

[Sarah MacLean]

This is fated. Mates. Find us on Twitter and Instagram. Join the old school romance book club. Well, it's not called that anymore. Join OSRBC on Facebook to talk to us on Wednesday mornings. We post the episodes there, too. Please subscribe. That matters. A whole lot to us and like us and leave us a review if you have time. Tell your your friends if you love us.

[Jen Prokop]

You can buy some pretty awesome faded Mates buttons at my shop from my best friend Kelly. They're buttons and I think we're gonna have some stickers. And then, Sarah, you have really cool T shirts.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yep. You can get clothing for from now. For now, just two designs from my partnership with Jordan Danae, but more to come. And Jordan's gonna join us also in the new year for an episode of her podcast or she'll join us for a little bit of our episode. And I'm actually on her podcast this week talking about romance in general. We'll link to that in show notes and then, you know, at the end of every episode. Now this season we are hearing from you guys, so you can leave us a message at 646-450376. You can't find that number anywhere but here in your ear holes. And that's a US number for our international callers. Stay tuned to the end of every episode so you can hear all of your fellow reader listeners. I think that's it. Theta Mates is produced by Eric Mortensen. That's it.

[Jen Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Read great books, you guys. I am in luck with Dane.

[Jen Prokop]

Me too.

[Sarah MacLean]

Same, same. Jess, Same.

[Jen Prokop]

Although I wouldn't want to run a foul of Jess. She'd, you know.

[Sarah MacLean]

No, I would not. In the learning the tropes style. I would not. I would not bang him because I would be afraid of Jess. Fair. Yeah. Thanks, everyone. See you next week.

[Jen Prokop]

Hi, this is Lindsay from Baltimore. The book that got me started into romance is called Saving the CEO by Jenny Holiday. I read it because my book club selected it. The author is a cousin of one of my book club members and we were looking for something lighter to read after some heavy books and I just really loved it. This is part of my getting older and not giving a fuck about what people think about what I'm into. But I was really into how sexy it was and how the consent was explicit and I just really got sucked in after that. I found the website Smart Bitches, Trashy Books and I started making myself reading lists from other people's books that they were really enjoying on the what are you reading? Threads. And then I found Faded Mates on Twitter and now I'm obsessed.

[Sarah MacLean]

So thank you so much.