RERUN: S04.35: Butterfly Swords by Jeannie Lin: Some Real Hero Sh*t

Summary

Podcast Summary: Fated Mates - Rerun S04.35: "Butterfly Swords" by Jeannie Lin

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Introduction

In this rerun of episode 35 from season 4 of Fated Mates, co-hosts bestselling author Sarah MacLean and romance critic Jennifer Prokop delve deep into Jeannie Lin's historical romance novel, Butterfly Swords. Released on March 30, 2025, this episode offers a comprehensive analysis of the book, exploring its intricate plot, complex characters, and the underlying themes that make it a standout in the romance genre.

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Book Overview

Butterfly Swords, published in 2010 by Harlequin UK (Mills and Boon), marks Jeannie Lin's debut in the historical romance arena. The novel is set during the Tang Dynasty in the 700s and introduces readers to Eilee, the daughter of the Emperor, who is navigating the treacherous waters of arranged marriage and familial honor.

Jennifer Prokop summarizes:

"Jeannie Lin was the first Asian American writer crafting Asian characters in historical romances set in Asia. This book is set during the Tang Dynasty in the 700s, focusing on Eilee, the Emperor's daughter in disguise." [05:17]

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Character Analysis

Butterfly Swords centers around two protagonists: Eilee and Riam.

• Eilee: A princess in disguise, Eilee is portrayed as a skilled warrior trained by her grandmother. Her journey is one of self-discovery and defiance against the patriarchal structures imposed upon her.

  Sarah observes:

  "Eilee is the daughter of the emperor, skilled in swordsmanship, and carries butterfly swords uniquely fitted for her." [07:24]

• Riam: Originating from the Middle East, Riam is a wanted man surviving as a mercenary in the Chinese hinterlands. His encounter with Eilee sets off a chain of events that intertwines their destinies.

  Sarah notes:

  "Riam is a textbook hero—strong, honorable, and deeply protective of Eilee." [47:34]

A notable interaction between the characters showcases their immediate connection:

"He says, 'I don't want to say anything to you that I've ever said to another woman.'" [43:24]

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Themes and Discussion

Sarah and Jen explore several key themes within the novel:

1. Honor and Duty: Both Eilee and Riam are bound by their personal codes of honor, which often conflict with societal expectations. This creates a rich ground for character development and tension.

   Jen states:

   "Eilee is committed to her family's honor and navigating the political intricacies of her arranged marriage." [50:07]

2. Forbidden Romance: The relationship between Eilee and Riam is fraught with obstacles—cultural differences, political alliances, and personal sacrifices—that make their love both intense and precarious.

   Sarah shares:

   "The conflict here is 800 miles deep. With love, anything is possible, but the stakes are incredibly high." [61:06]

3. Female Empowerment: Eilee's journey challenges traditional gender roles, portraying her as a strong, independent woman who defies expectations to forge her own path.

   Jen adds:

   "Women in this book understand their world and navigate it with intelligence and strength." [58:52]

4. Cultural Intersection: The novel's setting in the Tang Dynasty provides a vivid backdrop, highlighting the confluence of different cultures and traditions that shape the characters' lives.

   Sarah explains:

   "Jeannie Lin beautifully paints the Tang Dynasty, making the world itself a character that influences the protagonists' journey." [34:14]

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Narrative Structure

One of the standout features discussed is Jeannie Lin's innovative narrative technique. Instead of adhering to traditional alternating POVs, Lin interweaves Eilee's and Riam's perspectives seamlessly within the same scene.

Sarah remarks:

"The narrative flows fluidly, switching perspectives seamlessly from paragraph to paragraph, which enhances the pacing and depth of the story." [35:02]

Jen concurs:

"This approach avoids the pitfalls of traditional head-hopping, maintaining a fast-paced and engaging read." [36:22]

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Plot Discussion

The hosts provide a detailed walkthrough of the plot, highlighting pivotal moments that define the characters and their relationship.

• Eilee's Resistance: On discovering Li Tao's betrayal and his role in her brother's death, Eilee refuses the arranged marriage, setting her on a path to confront her father and break free from the imposed alliance.

  Sarah describes:

  "Eilee discovers that Li Tao betrayed her father and is responsible for her brother's death, compelling her to reject the arranged marriage." [08:14]

• The Road Trip: The first half of the book focuses on Eilee and Riam's journey back to the imperial city, serving as both a literal and metaphorical road trip that facilitates their emotional and personal growth.

  Jen explains:

  "The road trip is a character-building journey that also richly details the setting of Tang Dynasty China." [28:00]

• Climactic Confrontation: The final act involves high-stakes confrontations, including Riam's physical challenges to secure Eilee's safety and honor, culminating in a deeply romantic resolution.

  Sarah enthuses:

  "The climax delivers a powerful blend of action and romance, showcasing true heroism and sacrifice." [56:32]

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Conclusion

Sarah and Jen conclude their analysis by lauding Butterfly Swords for its masterful blend of action, romance, and rich historical detail. They emphasize the book's ability to weave complex characters and high-stakes conflict into a compelling romantic narrative.

Jen summarizes:

"This book is perfect for readers seeking a romance that's as much about the journey and character development as it is about love." [64:38]

Sarah adds:

"Jeannie Lin delivers a romance that feels like an adventure movie with heart and soul, making it a must-read." [49:30]

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Key Quotes

1. On the Narration Technique:

   "The narrative flows fluidly, switching perspectives seamlessly from paragraph to paragraph." – Sarah MacLean [35:02]

2. On Character Dynamics:

   "Riam is a textbook hero—strong, honorable, and deeply protective of Eilee." – Sarah MacLean [47:34]

3. On Themes of Honor:

   "Eilee is committed to her family's honor and navigating the political intricacies of her arranged marriage." – Jennifer Prokop [50:07]

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Final Thoughts

Fated Mates episode S04.35 offers listeners an in-depth and passionate exploration of Butterfly Swords by Jeannie Lin. Sarah MacLean and Jennifer Prokop's engaging discussion highlights the novel's strengths in storytelling, characterization, and thematic depth, making a compelling case for its place in the romance genre's pantheon.

For those who haven't listened to the episode, this summary encapsulates the essence of the conversation, providing valuable insights into why Butterfly Swords is celebrated as a powerful and evocative romance novel.

Transcript

[Sarah MacLean]

Hello, Sarah, are you coming in hot? Jen, are you fixing your levels?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Listen, I try to fix my levels.

[Sarah MacLean]

Listen, you guys, you don't know how much Eric comes at us with, turn down your mics. Get up on top of it. Get hot, get cold. Make out with the microphone. Don't make out with the microphone.

[Jennifer Prokop]

What I am confused about is it's like, get up on the microphone, but then turn it down.

[Sarah MacLean]

But don't be too hot. And I mean, to be honest, like, what kind of question, what kind of request is that of us? Obviously, we're gonna be hot. We're doing a hot girl ship all the time.

[Jennifer Prokop]

All the time. Listen, I often just have to yell inside of a classroom. That's what I have to do. And that's. I can't turn that down.

[Sarah MacLean]

Listen. Sometimes do you listen to Episodes and you're like, do I sound like this? I still get that. I know that you listen to them like, you're very good. You listen to them multiple times. But I'm always like, I don't know why anybody would listen to us, but. Hi, everyone. Welcome to Fated Mates. I'm Sarah maclean. I read romance novels and I write them.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And I'm Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader and editor.

[Sarah MacLean]

And we have a very exciting show for you today. But first of all, we have to do some housekeeping, which is.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Okay, I'm ready.

[Sarah MacLean]

Some of you out there may have noticed that we are running advertising here on Dated Mates Now. And so we just want to let you know that we are running, as you can tell when you listen to these episodes, what's called 60 second mid roll ads. Although, spoiler alert, they're never 60 seconds.

[Jennifer Prokop]

We have a lot to say. It's fine.

[Sarah MacLean]

We're just blabbermounts coming in hot. And so. But we want to let you know if you're an author or you, you know, work with products that you think Thetamates listeners would like. You can always reach out to [e-mail] and talk to us about ads. You'll get Eric at that email address and will help you find your way with us. We are currently booking ads in the summer and beyond, so we love you. And the best way.

[Jennifer Prokop]

If you're not interested in advertising on.

[Sarah MacLean]

Kdb, the best way for you to support us is to support our advertisers, Right?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Buy those books, take those edibles.

[Sarah MacLean]

How are those edibles working for you still?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Okay. Listen, it's amazing. Are you every. I take one every night. Sleep like a baby.

[Sarah MacLean]

Mr. Reid's romance is like, awesome.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Good for you, basically. Like I told you, Debbie, I don't even have to really get into it. But yeah, I told you so there. Fine.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's fine. Listen, that is so this is. They are not a sponsor this week, but last. But they were sponsored last week. And those are microdose gummies. Jen likes them a lot. I'm pretty sure that you can still use the code betameats for 30 off with them.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, I would imagine for a while. Sure. Okay, here's another point of order. If you are listening to this podcast on the day it comes out, May 18th and you live near Connecticut.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, yeah. Come see me. I am gonna be at RJ Julia Bookstores in Madison, Connecticut, tonight, May 18, with Christina Lauren. Both Christina and Lauren will be there.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And the next night, Thursday the 19th, if you are in the Chicago suburbs, I will be in Naperville at Anderson's Bookshop. Although it's off site and it's ticketed and I think they're close to selling out, so. Oh, don't just show up.

[Sarah MacLean]

Mine too. But they did move us to a larger venue, which I know they did in Chicago too.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes, Christina and Lauren are Christina and Lauren. And we will be joined by Sonali Dev. And they don't know, but I have a very fun game planned and I'm not gonna tell you about it. No, they listen.

[Sarah MacLean]

They're on tour. Definitely listening to Faded Mates the second it drops.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It's fine. It's. It's. I'll. They'll. They'll see it afterwards, then the week after. I'll tell you. It's really fun. I'm excited about it. So you could see us.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And Christina, Lauren, I will have pins.

[Sarah MacLean]

And stickers for Faded Mates. Come say hi. We love you. Magnificent Firebirds.

[Jennifer Prokop]

We gotta get.

[Sarah MacLean]

Also, I think we maybe said this here. We're just. Now we're down the rabbit hole here. Fine. I think we maybe said. I know we said it on Twitter, but we really want an artist out there to design us a magnificent firebird. And we will pay you to do this. But I accidentally said on Twitter that I wanted this to happen. And then the bots came and it was terrifying. So I deleted the tweet immediately and regretted my life decisions. But if you are out there and you are an artist or, you know, an artist and you would like to design us a magnificent firebird to put on, like, stickers and possibly T shirts, we want that, please.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And I would say stay tuned. Within the next few weeks, we are going to have some other fun opportunities where we're just trying to, like, nail down dates and locations where you can see us together.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, I'm just excited about seeing Jen. Really.

[Jennifer Prokop]

God, me too. Summer helps everybody.

[Sarah MacLean]

I have a book out in August, and I am really, really trying to get them to send me to Chicago so that I can just hang with Jen and we can all hang out together.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It's gonna be amazing. It's all gonna work out. I feel it. I feel it in my bones.

[Sarah MacLean]

Okay.

[Jennifer Prokop]

This week we are reading Butterfly Swords by Jeannie Lynn. And if you remember listening to our Jeannie Lynn trailblazer, which was in March, this was her first book. It is a terrific.

[Sarah MacLean]

Doesn't read like a first book, does it?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, no, it's. I listen, this is one of those books that I is. I read it again this week, obviously, to prepare, and was. Was completely like, oh, my gosh. It was better than I remembered. Right. The best. Which is the best feeling. So just a brief overview. This was published in 2010. Jeannie tells the story on our episode of kind of like the story of how she came to write it and then how it got published. She won the Golden Heart Award, and that kind of opened some doors. It was originally published by Harlequin.

[Sarah MacLean]

Harlequin uk.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes. Right. Mills and Boon, essentially.

[Sarah MacLean]

And it's interesting because as I was reading it this time, and I hadn't read it since we had spoken to her on the Trailblazer episode, but she had said that her editor was from Mills and Boone there. And I thought it was really fascinating because there's a lot of English spelling in this book. Did you notice that?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Interesting. No, not really, but okay. I believe it. Huh?

[Sarah MacLean]

Cool. Like, these characters definitely say aluminium. They don't. You guys. They don't say that.

[Jennifer Prokop]

They don't. Okay, so here's the thing. The other thing. The reason that we had Jeannie on as a trailblazer is she was the first Asian American writer writing Asian characters in historical romances set in Asia. And this is the first book. So it's set during the Tang dynasty in the 700s. Our main characters are Eilee, who is the daughter of the emperor.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And surprise.

[Sarah MacLean]

Princess.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Princess in disguise.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It is a princess in disguise. And her, like, barbarians, the word that you use all the time, kind of consort lover.

[Sarah MacLean]

Liam.

[Jennifer Prokop]

No, let me see. Rya. Let me think. Hold on. I listened to the audiobook, so I wanted to get this pronunciation right. It's like.

[Sarah MacLean]

That'S how I read it in My head.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. And she's Eilee. And the plot of this, he's just a big brutish.

[Sarah MacLean]

They call him a lion.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, essentially. Okay, we're gonna talk about him in a minute. There's so many things that are amazing about this book, but Eilee. The plot essentially opens where she is supposed to be getting married to a warlord named Li Tao.

[Sarah MacLean]

A bad dude.

[Jennifer Prokop]

This is an arranged marriage.

[Sarah MacLean]

Classic warlord.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Classic warlord. Bad guy. Unless the warlord wants forever, then it's fine.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's different.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I'm pretty sure Li Tao gets his. Gets a book later. Later in this series. Yeah, perhaps it's Farewell, My Concubine. I'll have to look. Which is such a great title too.

[Sarah MacLean]

Keep talking. I'll figure it out.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Okay, you look it up. She discovers, though, essentially on the eve of her wedding, that Li Tao is responsible for. Is essentially betraying her father, the Emperor, and is responsible for one of her brother's deaths. She had five brothers. Brother number four has died and Li Tao is responsible. And so she is. She knows that she cannot marry him. She has to return home to Shangon and tell her father that this man is actually not an ally, but instead an enemy. And on the way, like, kind of out, she meets this foreigner. And Riam is. It's from the Middle east, essentially, like they call him sometimes. The Turk is really the closest we get to maybe knowing exactly where he's from. And he has, you know, traveled across essentially Europe and Asia and now is in China. And he. He's a fascinating character. He knows he will never go back home. Like, there's. He barely survived the year long journey there. This is just. What he's going to do now is like fight in the hinterlands on the border of China and essentially be, you know, in one of these, like, kind of mercenary troops.

[Sarah MacLean]

He. And also, it's important to note, like, he's wanted. He's a wanted criminal. Or at least he's not wanted. But he. He's in danger as long as he stays in China. Wait, I'm gonna pause. Li Tao does get his book. It's the next book in the series, the Dragon and the Pearl. And of course, it's with Ling, the Emperor's consort.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, I wasn't sure which the title was, but I knew it. Anyway, they meet the. Meet Cute is really a meat poison. Because what happens is he is starving.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well, he has no money. Yeah, yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

He's gotten the shit beat out of him. He has no money. He's been separated from his he thinks that they're all dead and he's the only one who survived. So he's essentially begging and she gives him this bowl of rice that was intended for her and it knocks him out practically. He gets roofied.

[Sarah MacLean]

I know that you're doing the plot over you, but whatever. We're stopping now because I want to pause and discuss this moment. Okay. Because there are a couple things that are going on in this moment that I think are really interesting. One, she chooses. This whole scene is in his pov, which is really interesting because he's so like, deeply ashamed of the idea that like, he has to beg. But he's like gearing himself up to this point where he feels where he's going to beg because he's so hungry, right? He sees them arrive, this like, group of people, because she's surrounded, of course, by guards because she's being brought to her marital bed.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well. And she's dressed as a man.

[Sarah MacLean]

And she's dressed as a man. That is where I am going because, you know, I fucking love this shit. She's dressed as a man and he is like, what is this nonsense?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right? Like immediately I can tell her this.

[Sarah MacLean]

Person, this is clearly not a man. And. And she's not because she's a princess, butterfly swords and all. But she's still like. Later we discover when, when she meets Lady Ling, when the moment happens with Lady Ling, that she's like, her everything about her is like pure distilled, like well trained Chinese princess.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right, right, right. Dutiful daughter, rule follower.

[Sarah MacLean]

And she like, right. She moves like she's been trained in this particular way. But so it's this great moment where she offers him her food.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

She like, she has it in a bowl and she gives it to him and he's like a goner.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

From that. I mean, like, that's it done. Like, he just can't. He can't quit her.

[Jennifer Prokop]

No.

[Sarah MacLean]

And so then. I'm sorry, go on. There's poison involved.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well, so he kind of eats it and she goes off, right? I don't know. They're separate. Yeah. And he realizes, like, he's getting groggy and he realizes that he. That the food must have been drugged and it was intended for her, so she's in danger. But because he's, you know, this huge hulking guy. Whatever.

[Sarah MacLean]

It doesn't.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It's not.

[Sarah MacLean]

I just, I just finished watching the Princess Bride with, with my daughter and it's not his fault. He's the biggest and the strongest, right? He doesn't even exercise.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Amazing. So he basically goes back to save. He knows that she's in danger, and they end up on, like, essentially on the road together. She convinces him that he should take her back to Shanghon, and he's kind of like me.

[Sarah MacLean]

Point of order. They have a bet.

[Jennifer Prokop]

They do. That's true. Okay, you do it.

[Sarah MacLean]

Okay. Oh, my God. It's so good.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So good.

[Sarah MacLean]

Okay, so she has. So she's. So we don't know if she's a princess or do we know Princess, right?

[Jennifer Prokop]

We don't know she's a princess. She says that her father's a tea merchant.

[Sarah MacLean]

We don't find out until the old man, the fisherman.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Much later. Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

I think that's such an interesting reveal, too. Like, what a cool thing that Jeannie's done, putting the information in the mouth of some. Literally, a character who's barely there.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

We don't know she's a princess, but we know that. So her father's a tea merchant, we've been told. And we know she is, like, a skilled warrior. Like, she has. She's a sword. She's a bladesmith. Right. Or blade. Or like, she's. She's a. A blade woman. And she's able to. She has these butterfly swords. And we learn later that, like, she has smuggled them with her on this.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Journey because they were perfectly fitted to her. No one else could use them if they were not her exact size.

[Sarah MacLean]

Exactly. And she was taught by her grandmother how to fight, which is pretty badass and great. And so. And he sees this, like, he has, like, this book, talk about adventure romance. Right? Like, yes, I want to. I want to set that aside and come back to it. But, like, we're talking about an adventure romance here, which is really very fun. And so they have seen each other in combat, and now he sort of is, like, looking at her with her swords and, you know, they're talking about her swords, and she. They make a. He makes her bet. It's basically like, you can come at me 10 times, you can, like, attack me 10 times, and I will do nothing but defend myself. But if I win, you have to kiss me. And she's like, okay, but if I win, you have to take me to the imperial city. And he's like, remember? P.S. see, earlier note about him being a total goner at this point. Right? So he's going to take her to the imperial city anyway because, like, no way is he just going to let her, like, you know, roam about the countryside. Right. He's going to keep her safe. But he's like, fine. And they fight and he wins. And this first kiss.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I would like to spend a lot of time talking about kissing in this book.

[Sarah MacLean]

This first kiss is. I mean, it is one of the best kisses in romance, I think.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It's so lush. It's so full of promise and longing, right? It's so tactile. It's so sexy. And the thing is, is this is why I honestly get really mad at people, okay? And I'm sorry, I'm just going to go off on my little rant. I get really mad at people who are like, it's a slow burn. Like, this book is a slow burn. They don't have sex until like 70%. But the kissing, the longing, it's so present in the way that they interact with each other. And this first kiss is honestly, like, I. I felt the same way the first time. I. I'm. I'm sure I can find a Twitter thread where I wrote about this kiss years ago when I first read this book, because I was like, this is how you do it.

[Sarah MacLean]

It is shreds them both, right? Emotionally and physically. They like, they are both, like, destroyed by this kiss. But even in the mo. Like, so in the moment, right? This is her first kiss, too. She's never kissed anybody before because she's a fucking princess. This is what. I want to put a pin in that for just one second because I do want to also say, related to the slow burn issue, like, this is a good example of how slow burn can work really well. Because one, as. As Jen just said, like, the longing and all of that stuff is still in here. The kissing still happens, right? Like, it's just not consummated until late in the. In the story. But also, there is a really good reason why they can't bang. And that is she is a fucking princess, like, and she has headed to her marriage bed. Like, there is. She is untouchable in about 17 different ways, right?

[Jennifer Prokop]

The plot of this book, this book is so smart. Everything about it is just so brilliant. The way it's conceived and the way it is, is laid out, which is you are really used to a lot of, you know, Regency romances, like, really lay the blueprint for, like, oh, we can't be together. And it's, like, forbidden. But listen, this shit is forbidden. And here's the thing. He's an outsider, right? He's this barbarian. He's the white devil.

[Sarah MacLean]

The ghost. Ghost.

[Jennifer Prokop]

The ghost, right? This book wouldn't work if he was Han if he was Chinese. Because any other person that was raised in this culture would know, I cannot be with this woman. I cannot be alone with her. Even if she isn't a princess, this, like, just literally cannot happen. I would have to turn her into the magistrate. Only an outsider would be kind of willing to break those rules because they don't realize the gravity of those rules. So his whole relationship with her is of course completely forbidden, but he. And he knows he shouldn't really be fucking around with her, but taking her somewhere.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, no. But this is what's really fascinating, right, Is like going back to this kiss. He has such swagger, right? Like when it's over and she's like, okay, well, I guess that was a fine. And that was fine. I feel that was nice. Thank you very much. This is a good match. And she. And he's like, yeah, it was.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes, he wants her. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And he so entertained the whole time by how much she wants him, right? Like, he knows how much she wants him. And so at the beginning, I mean, this is. Jeannie threads this needle so beautifully because at the beginning he knows how much she wants him. And he's like, I'm gonna kiss her. Like, we're gonna make out. Like there's a pretty heavy, like, make out scene that comes a little later. And then the moment he realizes, like, oh, shit, she's going to her husband. Like, she's like, she's basically married, right? Like, she's promised to this man whether or not they've actually like, had the.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It doesn't matter, right?

[Sarah MacLean]

He then realizes the gravitas of her situation and pulls back. And then his knowledge of how much she wants him starts to destroy him, right?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

And it's so beautifully done. The characterization is so beautiful because nothing has changed about his understanding of her feelings for him. It's only external pieces that have suddenly made this internal relationship impossible. This is a very important lesson in conflict that you can learn from this book and how to layer it beautifully. This week's episode of Fated Maids is sponsored by Charlotte Howard, author of Secret Verses.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sarah. This has a great opening. Lady Anne Towson discovers a poem that has been written about her slipped under her front door. And she can't help but hope that it is Matthew Everly, the young man she's had her eye on for quite a while.

[Sarah MacLean]

But here's the thing. I don't think it is this Matthew Everly character. Because every time she and Matthew are out together, they are shadowed by one mysterious Sir James Bryan, who Sounds like.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Trouble, but in a good way.

[Sarah MacLean]

In a great way.

[Jennifer Prokop]

He is a agent for the crown and whatever it is that is going on might be some sort of shenanigans and business that could shake the very foundations of England itself.

[Sarah MacLean]

What is going to happen? You'll have to read it to find out. This one is for Beauty and the Beast lovers, for marriage of convenience lovers, for long time longing in romance novel lovers, and also for anyone who likes a hidden identity. And we all know I really like a hidden identity.

[Jennifer Prokop]

You can find out more about Secret Verses at the website of Charlotte Howard, which is CharlotteHowardRomance.com and this book is available in print, ebook and on ku, so you should definitely check it out. Thanks to Charlotte Howard for sponsoring this week's show for a good part of the book. He doesn't actually realize that he, he can tell that she. From money.

[Sarah MacLean]

She's special.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right. He can tell that, you know, that there's more to her than meets the eye or there's some sort of secret. He has no idea it's the emperor's daughter. But what he does know about her is that she has essentially like honor and a set of beliefs that she lives by. And that the other thing that he realizes is like, I'm this like nobody. I don't live by a code the same way she does. And so I have to really live up to the standard because if I let her ruin her honor or not live according to this code or break these right. Then I will have led her down this path. And it's not about her being a princess and it's really not even about her being a virgin. It's about him respecting her values.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. Her code. Which is so fascinating because while he is doing this work, right. Like while he, he is performing this for the reader.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

This sort of like not understanding of her like bedroc nobility. Right. Small end nobility. Right. What's happening on the other side is they ultimately, at about half the halfway mark of this book, like Almost exactly at 50%, they get to her parents again. And this character who has been so deeply committed to her bedrock understanding of right and wrong, right to the point where like, we don't fully understand what his deal is at this point, but like we understand that he, he sort of says to her, like, I've done bad things.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

And they have this conversation where she's like, well, what kind of bad things? And she said, he sort of explains that they're like bad, but not really bad.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And he. And she's like, okay, I'm actually really grateful for that. Because if they had been bad, I would have asked for your life. Like, I would have fought you.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

You know, because you, you know, you would have deserved it. Like, again, that sort of small end. Nobility. And he says to her, like, well, you wouldn't have won. You're not strong enough.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And she's like, you're just a girl.

[Sarah MacLean]

Fight is not about winning.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like, it's like, about the nobility. It's about my code and my honor. And, like, if I die, I die. Right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well, you know, she so put a pin in that for the end. Right? Like, this is this.

[Sarah MacLean]

Of course. Right. So then. But then she gets to her parents, and she is so certain that she will get to her parents and she will say to her father, li Tao killed my brother, your son. Right, Right. And he is a bad man who is doing bad things. And, like, there are all these political machinations and like, this is a bad match. You sent me to this man, and you did not know what he was.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right?

[Sarah MacLean]

Right. Because she cannot conceive of the idea that her father would not have known that would. Would have known this. And also sent her essentially to the wolves.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right, Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

And it becomes clear that, like, oh, no, he did know. And he did it because, like, this is just politics, right? Like this. It's okay. Like, men do things in war, Men do things in politics. And he is my enemy. But you're gonna make it right. And so, yeah, I'm sending you to a bad man to be married.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

She is like, what is like, it is earth shattering for her.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Okay. So, you know, this is a long term marriage between her family. She's the youngest at 19, is the youngest of six. She has five older brothers. Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

And the only girl.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And the only girl. And the other thing she gets told, like, once she reaches them, is that his. In order to sort of kind of consolidate and make sure that the emperor's power, you know, it's shaky, is he is going to essentially make her mother, second wife and sort of bring in this, like, fan favorite. Right. Mia. And therefore, we know at this point.

[Sarah MacLean]

We know the hero knows her, but we don't know how.

[Jennifer Prokop]

We don't know how. And so, and this is another thing that, you know, I would destroy Eilee is like, what are you talking about?

[Sarah MacLean]

Like, you were six children. You've been married for 20 years. What are you talking about?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. And so she goes to her grandmother, and her grandmother is kind of like, it does seem kind of like, let's get, you know, like, why don't you go and I'll just sort of, like, pretend that I have you for a while. Grandmas, by the way, romance grandmas are the best. I. I live to be a romance grandma in real life one day. But. So the thing about the political machinations is that. And I really respect this about Jeannie, too, about the book is Eilee we suspect. Right. Kind of. From the beginning, honestly, is. I mean, from the beginning, I was kind of like, she's. Her father knew, right? Like, she's so young and naive, but she is never shown to be foolish. It's never like, you're naive and silly. It's. You're naive and principled. And it's these other people around you who are not living up to the family's very honorable reputation. And the way that she was raised. Right. And I really like that, too. There was never any time when I felt like, okay, even though she didn't quite get it, that she was, like, dumb or young or silly, it was always that she was doing the right thing for the right purpose and therefore, really admirable.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's really magnificent the way this book is put together, especially because. So at this point. So the first half of this book is a road trip, right?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right. Now, before we talk about the road trip, I just want to point out back in season one, we had a road trip interstitial, and we did talk about this book briefly, but, you know, not everybody listened to season one, and even I don't remember anything that we said. So we're just going to talk about the road trip again, right?

[Sarah MacLean]

The lion's share of you, we did.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Not listen to that episode.

[Sarah MacLean]

But also, I think I'm smarter about road trips. At least I don't know if you are, but I mean, meaning, I think you were probably pretty smart before. But, like, I'm thinking I actually just wrote a road trip book. So, like, I have been thinking a lot about what road trips mean in romance. And one of the things that I think goes on in a road trip, the sort of purpose of a road trip, is to take two characters out of their existing experiences, like their existing world, and give them freedom in the journey to discover more about themselves and to sort of change their path. Right? Like, literally change their path. Right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Literally.

[Sarah MacLean]

Literally and figuratively. So I think what's really interesting here is that there is. This first half is a very. They are both pushing against an identity that they have been. They have always had. And so we're Sort of given this idea that Ailee. We don't know very much about her, but there are several moments where we start to. Where Jeannie starts to reveal pieces of her. We start to see. We see they're put in a position of having to kind of, like, depend upon the kindness of a group of fishermen. And it's at that point in the book when we discover, like, oh, she's actually not just like, some rich girl, She's a princess.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

And then later, we meet the head of the imperial, the palace's courtesans, who is now retired.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

And these sort of ancillary characters, these side characters in the road trip, along the road trip piece do the work of showing us, like, who these characters were before and who they versus, like, and how they have changed. And I think a lot about that in romance, about how side characters are often, like, the best side characters are used in this manner, in this, like, way to sort of point to the evolution of the character and tell the reader, like, this character is changing. And you didn't know it necessarily. But I'm telling you because I knew them before or I knew. And so I love a moment where, like, a woman who has potentially been with the hero notices, like, oh, you're into her more than you were ever into me.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right, Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

And so I think there are some really magnificent little road trip moments along. This is why, you know, we talked about in the road trip interstitial, because it is such a. Like, it's such a great example of a good one.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Well, so, okay, so you talked a lot about what is important about character in road trips. I want to talk a lot about. Road trips are important for setting. So one of the things that I don't know if you remember when we talked about Mill Vane, when we talked about A Heart of Blood and Ashes, is I was like, one of the things I. I get a little frustrated. I'm a bad reader of fantasy, is I'm always like, why are they walking around everywhere? Like, what is going on? Why are all these books, like them just slogging through Middle Earth or whatever? And my friend Brittany said something very smart, and she said basically, well, or no, this was. Okay, wait, sorry, I'm gonna say this again. A friend of mine from my, like, romance book club here in town said something really smart, which was basically like, well, that's how you get to know the world. Like, the world is a character too. And so one of the things I was really tuned into this time is how much the road trip like, tells us about the setting. Right. Of China in 758, but also, like, sort of their knowledge and interaction with. With that. So, for example, the first town that they kind of go to, you know, they're like, kind of, you know, he's able to find, like, the brothel or whatever, and she's kind of like, have you been here before? Right. She's like, have you ever been here before? And he's like, no, but, like, all these towns are the same or. But it has a wall, right? And then later on, there's like, an unwalled city. And, you know, like, you know, the whole part about the Jade Gate at the end, essentially at the end of China, you know, her feelings about being in Shanghai at the Imperial. Like, at the Imperial versus her feelings about going back home to the place she grew up in. And so, you know, I thought it was really smart to make the. Like, to make the world a character, because for, I assume. I mean, this Jeannie Lin was the first person and as far as I know, is still the only person writing historical romances set in the Tang Dynasty. So she has to introduce us to that world. She's, I think, smart to assume, like. Like, these dummies probably don't know anything about this, Right? So let me. Let me tell them this is what life would be like. And you can see that from the ground in a different way. And so I found myself really thinking, like, this is super smart about, like, the, you know, some of the good stuff about, like, you know, the horses and bribing people and getting on the laundry carts and the adventure part, but also just sort of the, like, how do they. How do they get around? I mean, in the part where, like, she finally leaves her grandmother's house and she's gonna kind of, like, maybe go after him, and then they end up in the. At the stable, she's, like, stabling her horse, and the guy's like, oh, yeah, we had another horse like that. And she's like, is he still here?

[Sarah MacLean]

I was like, yeah, right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I loved it. So I just. I. So I think that's the thing about a road trip is it's a character building thing, but it's also like, where are they? Right? Where are they? Where are they in the world?

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So good.

[Sarah MacLean]

And, yeah, I think that's really. I think it's a really smart. It's a smart way to start a series.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

Particularly a series set in a location that is, you know, not as common.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right, Right. So. All right. I would like to talk About. Well, I don't want to talk about the ending yet.

[Sarah MacLean]

I want to talk about. I have something I want to talk about. I want to talk about what some readers might refer to as head hopping.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes. The narration of this is very interesting. Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's really fascinating. Right. So this book, as you're reading through, it's again, so published in 2010. So it's not like super old, but it is like last generation romance.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

And I think what's really fascinating is it throws out the convention of a scene from the heroine's perspective and then a scene from the hero's perspective. There is a mashing of it and it's not. It's not. And again, I think it's so fascinating because there is nothing messy about this. It is extremely easy to follow. We are not head hopping because it is chunks of text, but there is no break. You are reading along and you're in, you know, Eilee's pov and then like, something happens and the next paragraph, you're just in Riam's pov. Right. And I think it is so fascinating. And I was thinking a lot about the fact that it actually, it helps with the pacing of this book. It is so fast.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

The read on this is so fast. And also it's not very long. Right. It's a category. I mean, I want to talk about that too. Like, how she packs in this, like, massive story into.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It's so good book. Right? I. This book is so good, everybody. I love it so much.

[Sarah MacLean]

Okay.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sorry.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's really great. No, so I just think it's really interesting from a writing perspective. There are some choices narratively that really keep the pace of this book as fast as possible. And that's one of them, like, every time. And this is something that when you do, you know, follow the convention of one scene and one character's perspective, one scene and the others, you struggle often where, like to know, like, well, how much information do I have to get onto the page before I can switch POVs and tell you what the other person is thinking?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right, right.

[Sarah MacLean]

And that is a really difficult thing to do when you're writing and to think about, like, well, when does it switch? And she doesn't. She sort of avoids that as a.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Convention whenever it needs to switch. Yeah, yeah, I. I noticed it too. And one of the things I've been thinking a lot about is, is when I edit it, I think there's a lot of pressure. So. Okay. There's a couple things that you and I have talked about that. I think about a lot when I'm editing. Like, so one is, you tell the. The. If. If you're struggling with whose point of view it should be, it's like the character that has the most to lose. Right. Should be. You've said that before, and I really think about that a lot. But I think the problem with the, like, kind of this person. This person, like. Like a really even sort of like 1, then 2 1, then 2 or 1, 2, 3 or whatever is that then you really feel like, okay, I have to tell this. I have to tell this scene from this character's point of view. It's their turn.

[Sarah MacLean]

Which is a huge problem.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Because often it's not their turn yet.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Often it's not their turn yet. And yet I think there's something really punishing in some ways about that belief that it has to be kind of even or equal. And so by cutting loose from all of that. Right. Like, the book can just take the turn it needs to take. Sometimes a new chapter starts, sometimes it's interwoven. But it really is, like, paragraph to paragraph at times. And I found myself thinking. It also, I think, really felt. It just felt really fluid because these are people who are. Yeah. But also, like, it really reflected for me how they were. They were off. They were both in new territory. Right. Like, they were both out doing things that they weren't supposed to be doing. Weren't sure how they should be doing. Whatever. Right. One of my favorite lines of this book is there's a part where I did a. I did a lot. I did a lot of highlighting, but there was one part, and I think it's when they're with Lady Ling and, you know, they kind of go in and Eilee thinks social etiquette had no provision for dining with a man who wasn't your husband and a former concubine. Like, she's like. I don't even actually know. Because in a life that has been so regimented, where everything for her. Right. Has been so determined by, like, a certain set of how she's supposed to act, I thought it was just really cool, in a way. And so, in a way, that idea that, like, the fluidity of, like, what's happening, her making meaning out of it and trying to, like, grapple with it, made sense because everything was up in the air. Nothing made sense anymore. Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

You know, I think, yes, I think that's 100% true. I also think, like, there's something really magnificent about the way that Jeannie untethers Eileen especially and then re ties her to rm. This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Mila Finelli, author of the Kings of Italy Duet, beginning with Mafia Mistress. And we've talked about these books before on Fated Mates, but it's a very exciting time because they're both available for reading in audiobook.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Mafia Mistress is a dark romance, obviously by the name, right? Fausto is our Mafia don. He actually lives in Italy and goes to Canada to find a bride for.

[Sarah MacLean]

His find to find to kidnap.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I think they bargain bride for his 19 year old son. But then Francesca turns out to be the exact right woman for him. Whew.

[Sarah MacLean]

This book is besides being hot as blazes as they say, it's also perfect for anybody who loves an age gap romance. A little bit of daddy kink in their romance. A romance that, you know, swoons about.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Italy, kidnapping, all that stuff. It's all the good stuff.

[Sarah MacLean]

We're super excited this week because Mila Fenelli, for Fated Mates listeners only, has offered the first chapter of the audiobook for Mafia Mistress at the end of the episode. So stay tuned then to get all of that. Otherwise you can get the book in Kindle Unlimited and in print.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yep. You can find out more about Mila at her website, mila finnelli.com or on Facebook or Instagram at. Mila Finelli, Author thanks to Mila for sponsoring this week's show.

[Sarah MacLean]

One of my favorite moments in the book is right after she discovers she talks to her mother and she discovers her mother is about to become a second wife and she's so she's McCreeve brain, right? Like she's like spinning out about like what.

[Jennifer Prokop]

How could this be?

[Sarah MacLean]

What she believed to be true about her family is suddenly like in chaos and none of it is true. And she's starting to see the world for what it is. And she thinks to herself, I just wish he was here, right? Like I wish I had him. And of course we know this is because like they're falling in love and it's a romance novel and all of those things, but also it's that she has been untethered over this journey and he has helped her navigate it. And not because he's smarter or stronger or better, but because he is hers. Like he is for her and he cares most about her. And like she can't articulate that in that moment, but she knows it to be true. And it is so deeply romantic. Like there is a true sense of these characters being made for each other.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. And that the way that they try to explain that to each other. I mean, like, so I Typically, when I read, I don't do a ton of highlighting, but I feel like I really did. But there are, like, really great. And I appreciate the care with which. Right. Like, they're trying to talk to each other. And so at one point, he says, I don't want to say anything to you that I've ever said to another woman. And I was like.

[Sarah MacLean]

It'S so romantic.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It's so romantic, right? It's so beautiful.

[Sarah MacLean]

And, I mean, part of it is the, like, sweeping landscape and the, like, magnificent setting and, like, this sense of this very, like, beautiful historical. Like, it really nails the high fantasy of historical.

[Jennifer Prokop]

That's what I want to talk about next. I really wanted to talk about this as a historical. And one of the things that I have really come to feel. And maybe I'm going to bobble this as I try to explain it. I've been really finding myself being drawn to historical because I feel like the stakes are just higher. Right? You can just make the stakes higher because ruination, your father's the emperor. He's the white devil. You know what I mean? Like, you literally should not be with this man. There is no way for you to be with this man. That, to me, was. And, you know, I've read this book before, and every time when I get to the end, I'm like, oh, my God, what's gonna happen? Right? Like, just ev. And especially when the other thing that I thought was amazing and I. Is when they are together, it feels perfectly right. And the minute they are not together anymore, you're like, it's never gonna work out.

[Sarah MacLean]

Right?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right? And I was like, how did that happen? It's like magic. But the second that he essentially sends her off to.

[Sarah MacLean]

Stakes are.

[Jennifer Prokop]

The stakes are stuck.

[Sarah MacLean]

And that is a historical thing.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like, it just doesn't work as well in contemporary ever. And. And there. Oh, God, it's so good. It's so good because there are these magnificent moments within it where you really. You can't see how it's gonna work out. Right. Like I say all the time, like, why can't they be together like, 17 ways? Like, there are tons of reasons why they can't. Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And to the point where I was like, how can this. This ever work out?

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, it's gonna happen because this is crazy.

[Jennifer Prokop]

There's no way. There's no way.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right. Well, Anne, listen. Okay, I'm gonna say something now. I'm just like, if you stop and think about, like, how a person comes into your life. It's kind of amazing. It always feels a little like magic. Right? How did these two come in? Like, right, like the. The millions of decisions that got made, like, literally in 758. If your person is on the other side. And look, I know that not everybody believes in your person, but I'm a romance reader and I do. If your person grows up in Turkey and you are growing up in China, game over. And yet they found each other. And I'm gonna tell you this. It fucking moved me. I did.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's a great book. Of course it did.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I know, but I just. Right. I think that that's something that this book really effectively plays around with. Like I said, when they're together, you're like, of course they're together. They're perfect for each other. And then the minute they're separated, you're like, she's this emperor's daughter. She's got to go marry this Li Tao guy.

[Sarah MacLean]

And she says that he comes from nowhere. He has no family, no past, no.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Name, no money, no nothing. Right. All he has is his father's sword.

[Sarah MacLean]

And his love for this woman. It's great. It is. So, I mean, like, I just have on my notes, like, this is some real hero shit, right? Like, it's just. He is a textbook hero. And like, I say that he is heroic on so many levels, and then on top of it, he just is. He is a perfect. He is central casting romance hero. Like, everything he does is romance hero shit. And I love it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I love it too. And she. I felt the same. Okay, so there's like. Okay, there's this part where they're together, right? In. At her family's home and she. And. And in the tree is, like, carved all the names of the family members and like a game they play. And he. She carves his name in her language into the tree. And I was just like, I cannot fucking stand this book. Like how? Like just every little moment like that, it just was like. I mean, I. I just really feel like if somebody was like, give me a romance that, like, make is like the way you feel, right? This is the way you want to feel when you read a romance. This book to me really does it. And I think. Okay, you go ahead.

[Sarah MacLean]

No, I was going to say, because I think also there is something to this adventure piece.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes, Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

And I think we should talk about that because I think this book scratched an itch for me. I mean, like, I love, you know, you know, I love this book, but I think it scratched an itch for me. That is a particular itch that I'm feeling right now.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And, like, we've talked about this on the. On the podcast before. Those of you who listen regularly know that, like, I am really looking for, like, romances where shit happens, right? And this is a book where so much is happening on age, and still it is about the romance more than anything else, which is all I really want.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like, right.

[Sarah MacLean]

I want beautiful people blowing things up and fighting.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Fighting with swords as Joanna riding on.

[Sarah MacLean]

Horses, justifiably getting punched in the face, but also lots of making out. And, like, delivers. This book delivers to me. It is. It is a sh. It is a, like, adventure movie with kissing.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I actually am like, how has this never been made into a movie? I don't even understand what people are doing. Okay. I want to talk about gender, because I think it's really interesting, the role that Eilee plays in her family as the youngest daughter. But I also think, right. And how this is not really, like, none of her fight is really about, like, fighting that. Right? Like, she's just like, this is the way my fa. We were raised as a family to, like, no honor. And, you know, fourth brother was killed by Li Tao, and so I cannot marry him. It would be completely wrong.

[Sarah MacLean]

Right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

But I also think, you know, there's ways that she gets teased by being a girl, right? For not knowing the things that she should know. Right? For just being, you know, essentially. And yet at the same time, like, when she meets Lady Ling, who is this beautiful woman, you know, the most beautiful woman in China, essentially because she was the concubine of the previous emperor, she feels that sense of, like, I'm, like, this, like, urchin. I'm all dirty, and my hair is all matted and gross. I mean, it's like she really feels, you know, at times, this being torn, I think, between kind of, like, youngest daughter. Daughter, right? Like, kind of, what do I want? Do I get to make decisions for myself? But I think there's also plenty of things about this book. Like, one of my favorite scenes in this book is they eventually meet fifth brother, who's her favorite, right? So she's six. He's the one right above her, and Riam has to essentially fight him for her honor. But brother number five is a terrible swordsman, right? He's awful at it. And Rheum is kind of like, I'm really not sure what I'm supposed to be doing here, but I think it's really important that I look like I take this as a serious, like, sword fight, right?

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And, you know, and then he's kind of like, you know, oh, you beat me. So I guess it's okay. Like, you can, you know, hang off my sister or whatever. But even then at the end, when, you know, when they fight, when he fights Li Tao, and it's essentially a fight for honor. It's that it's a. It's now it's like, it's for real. Right. It's the same thing that happened with her brother, but now it's for real. And we want to think that Li Tao is sort of a scumbag. And, I mean, I guess he is, but it becomes even clearer to Riam at some point, like, oh, he's really thinks he's protecting her. He really thinks that I have, you know, taken her virginity and her good name, and he is doing something right here. And so I just thought, like, everybody has a lot of dignity in this book. Right? I don't know. I don't know if that is. I love this book. I love this book so much.

[Sarah MacLean]

No, it's great. And there are no. What's fascinating is there really, like, are no bad dudes in this book.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Everyone.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well, of course, Li Tao has to be. If he's going to be a future hero, he has to end up being a little more sympathetic himself out. Right. Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. I mean, it's very. It's interesting because when Jeannie was on the podcast and we talked about, you know, her career and that time period, right. Like 2010, we talked about how there was something going on right then in historicals.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like, it was the tail end of, you know, big historical. Like, the big historical. The last big historical movement. And, like, the truth is, is that historicals have ebbed and flowed over the years. And. But I think what was really fascinating about all of the writers who came up right around then, and I'm thinking about, you know, me, Tess, Dare, Courtney, Milan, Jeannie. There are bad people in the books, but nobody is like cookie cutter. And so there's something. I don't know, something started to happen in historicals right around that, and we're like, even the characters who might have been flat Stanleys earlier were now starting to be complex.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Yeah. I just think the way this, like, push, pull between. I mean, like, the longing in this book is so good. We get mine in this book, and it's probably about. Right. It's like they probably either maybe they just had sex. I can't remember. And he thinks, mine, right? And I was like, yeah. But then he thinks, right, for as long as she would have him to the ends of the earth if she needed him there. Right?

[Sarah MacLean]

Because here's the thing, it also has like, Sarah MacLaine, like, the most important thing that ever. Like, the only thing I ever want from a hero, which is I'm never gonna be good enough for her.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, completely.

[Sarah MacLean]

I.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

I am just lucky enough to like, to like, sit in her presence sometimes when she will.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes, yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

But like, basically she should not allow me to sit with her because I am nothing.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I'm nothing. Right? And he knows this. I. Yeah, I completely love it. But you know what? The reason that this, this also though, plays out in this amazing way is so, you know, at the end, Le Ta has them both, right? And he's torturing R over in the dungeon or whatever, and he says to her, you know, I'm a man of my word, so if you agree willingly to marry me. Cuz she has basically said, like, you can force me to marry you, but at one night I will knife you and you won't know when, but it's going to happen. I love her. And he's like, well, you are pretty good at swords, so I'm going to take that seriously. But he says, Li Tao says I'm a man of my word. So I will tell you, if you. I will. If you willingly agree to marry me, then I will let him go. And so she agrees to it because of course she loves him, right? She just wants him to live. And he cannot believe that. Just listen. That cannot be. Because she is so much better than him. And for her to sacrifice her everything she wanted in her entire life and her honor when he's just this nobody. I mean, he like, talk about McGreeve brain. And I'm not gonna lie to you, like that whole last 15% where like, you know, you think, you know, she's getting dressed in the beautiful wedding garments and stuff. You're like, how is this gonna work out? How is it gonna work out?

[Sarah MacLean]

But it does, because, sure, Jeannie Lynn pulls it out.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, my God.

[Sarah MacLean]

You know, it's so good. It's. It really is like, it's such a good lesson. It's such a good textbook.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, man.

[Sarah MacLean]

And it's a first book.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I don't even know how you all people, like, live with that. Yeah, it's terrible. Yeah. Sorry, everybody. This book's perfect.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah, it's great. Oh, I want to talk about Grandma. Although we kind of did talk about Grandma.

[Jennifer Prokop]

We talked about Grandma.

[Sarah MacLean]

Can we talk about how the moment when the grandmother says to her, like, I fought for myself. Like, when the grandmother talks about marriage, she says, like, I basically said, like, I would. I would only marry a man who could beat me.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

At swordplay. And so. And she, like, fought and won, like, however many, you know, 20 fights or whatever. And then, like, in came your grandfather, and he was perfect looking, and I was super into him, and so I let him win. And until he died, I let him think that he beat me. And it was such. I like, I love that moment for a lot of reasons. I love it because it also kind of reflects their sparring. And I like a lot of the symmetry of that moment. But I also love the acknowledgement that often women lie and they let men think that whatever was done was done because they were men and they were strong and powerful. And I loved in the.

[C]

This.

[Sarah MacLean]

In this book, there were several moments where I felt like wives were taking on. I don't know, is it burden? I don't know. Or like, they. Wives were like, the. Shown as the stronger. Yeah. And. And that's. And at the end, when she makes her sacrifice, she sacrifices herself for him. Right. In this, like, really noble act. And I think that Jeannie is going back to what you were saying about gender. Right. Like, it feels like Jeannie is saying a thing here about the way that women. Women's roles establish, like, hold power and hold space.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well, and I really like that. I mean, you have Lady Ling, you have Eilee's mother, you have her grandmother and all of them. And I don't know if people remember when Jeannie was on talking, you know, we were kind of like, why the Tang? Why this dynasty? And she said, you know, this was actually a time when there was more forward progress for women. And, you know, there was, you know, there's some. Some loosening of some restrictions so that, like, some of these things could take place. But ultimately, like, these are women who understand the world they're in and then figure out how to navigate it. And I think that that's why this is so, like, deeply romantic, is because at the end. Right. At the end, you know, Riam essentially is like, I. He can tell his soldiers. He, like, sends them off, right? He, like, says honor. He knows, like, the right word to say. And they're kind of like, I can't believe that you're turning your. You're essentially taking on the, like, Chinese ways. And. But he knows, like, this is the only way I can be with her. Right. I have to show her, and I have to show her father, even if it kills me, that I had honor for her.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, it's so good. It's so romantic.

[Jennifer Prokop]

He says, bring me. Bring me the fastest horse because he's going to chase her after her.

[Sarah MacLean]

That's some real hero shit.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Some real hero shit, right? Oh, man, I love this book. I do.

[C]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

I'm really glad we read it now. It feels like. Yeah, it feels like it was a book that I. I wanted right now.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Yeah. Well. And that's it. It's kind of like this. They are. It's. You know, there's a lot of interesting conversations in romance about, you know, conflict and character and plotting and, you know, they are always for each other, but the. The conflict here is, like, 800 miles deep. Right. And then you just have to believe that, like. Okay, but with love, anything really is possible.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. I mean, and you can't. This is the struggle is like, this particular book holds. And again, it's that. It's that something that historical offers, right. In a way that, like, sometimes fantasy offers it, too. This kind of, like, sense of. All the emotions are dialed up to 11. All the conflict is dialed up to 11. There's a real sense of, like, life and death here. Also, when she, you know, paints this portrait of, like, Tang Dynasty, she says, like, there are a couple of moments where, like, people slip and use first names or, like, given names instead of, like, you know, honorifics. And it's basically like, oh, you could be killed for saying that name out loud. And, like, there are. It's. Everything feels like it. It's heavy, in a way. And so, like, love in this context, love in this world has to feel so big and so powerful that you can't resist it. You choose it over the threat of all these other things. And it is great.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It's so good. I hope everyone out there reads it. Although we gushed ridiculously about it, so of course they will.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's great.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It is great.

[Sarah MacLean]

I hope everybody buys it. I hope we sell a million copies.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Me, too. That will be justice in the world. Okay, Sarah, a little bit of housekeeping.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Do we know what we're reading next? It's like Virginia Henley.

[Sarah MacLean]

Virginia Henley, Right. It's the Dragon and the Jewel. Now, I want to caveat this with. I will tell the full story of my experience with the Dragon and the Jewel on the podcast when we do this episode.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Okay.

[Sarah MacLean]

But I want to Say content warnings. I'm sure, you know, if you're somebody, check your content warnings. I have not read this book in about 25 years. So. Right. I mean, I probably was in my early 20s, so 20 years. And so I have no idea what we're getting into. We're just flying by the seat of our pants here. And you know what, if we get deep in, if we get like, I don't know, 100 pages in and we decide maybe not, we'll cancel it and we'll announce it on the podcast that we're doing something else. But right now, right? Dragon and the Jewel. And I'm excited because Virginia Henley's a wild ride.

[Jennifer Prokop]

One of the things I'm hoping is with the context of the trailblazers, when we go back to like a really old school romance, that people are able to kind of like read it in the context of that time. Right. Like, what was romance like then? What was it doing? How was it different? And I just think it's just a different experience. Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

This is not the Virginia Henley book.

[Jennifer Prokop]

That we are reading.

[Sarah MacLean]

But there is another very famous Virginia Henley moment where the heroine, who is a virgin, sees the hero in all of his nude glory and looks at his balls and says, they were like two swans eggs in a dark nest.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sure.

[Sarah MacLean]

And I gotta tell you, like, that's the vibe we're working with. So just be prepared.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Amazing. I can't wait.

[Sarah MacLean]

I will figure out what book that is. The Two Swan's Eggs and the Darkness.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Someone's gonna know.

[Sarah MacLean]

But also like Swan's Eggs. That sounds like maybe there's a medical issue.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So specific.

[Sarah MacLean]

Also, as you know, I don't write about balls.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So it's true? It's true. So you don't have any? We don't.

[Sarah MacLean]

You know, I've never written a swan Dick.

[Jennifer Prokop]

As it should be. Honestly, it's fine. Thank you to Charlotte Howard and Mila Fenelli for sponsoring this week's show. You can stick around right now and listen to Mila Fenelli's Mafia mistress in audio. Give it a taste and then if you like it, head over to Amazon or audible and check it out.

[Sarah MacLean]

As always, thanks to all of our sponsors, you can find more information in show notes. Notes about all of them.

[C]

Chapter one. Francesca, Toronto, Ontario. I met the devil the morning after my 18th birthday. Hungover and tired, I rolled over in bed where my toes brushed against warm skin and crisp body hair. A friend of mine held a graduation party last night at her pool and my boyfriend David slept over after we usually hooked up at his apartment, but I was too drunk last night and insisted on coming here. It hadn't been easy sneaking him into the house under the watchful gaze of the cameras monitored by Papa's men. But I was a pro. I'd been outsmarting the guards and the cameras for years. Now the one thing the guards loved. Routine. Once you learned the routine, you could get around it and do whatever you wanted. Papa was the head of one of the Seven families of the Ndrangheta in Toronto. A criminal network that stretched from Canada to South America to Italy. My father's business was dangerous, so my two sisters and I weren't raised as typical teenagers. Wherever we went, we were trailed by guards with guns inside their jackets, including to school. Our extracurricular activities were severely limited, our lives kept under careful scrutiny, which was why I couldn't help but occasionally sneak out. I was the responsible one, the big sister who began caring for my two younger siblings when our mother died. I deserved a break. Every now and then, a knock sounded at my door.

[D]

Frankie, are you awake?

[C]

My father. Shit. Panic filled me the first night I dared to have my boyfriend sleepover and my father was outside my door. This could not be good. Hangover forgotten, I grabbed David's shoulders. You have to get out of here, I mouthed silently. Like now. David nodded and hurried to dress while I handed him his clothes. I looked at the door. Papa, don't come in. I'm not dressed.

[D]

You need to get up and look presentable.

[C]

He said from the hall.

[D]

We have guests.

[C]

Guests? It was barely 9:00. I'll need at least an hour, I said.

[D]

You have 10 minutes.

[C]

I could hear the command in his voice. All right, I called. David zipped up his jeans and threw on his T shirt. I opened the window and looked down. My bedroom was on the second floor, so it was high, but not a death defying jump. Hang down from the window ledge and you should be fine. A rough hand slid over my bare ass.

[D]

Maybe it's time for me to meet your family, babe.

[C]

The idea almost made me laugh. My father would strangle David with his bare hands for daring to touch his precious daughter. You have to go. Keep to the side of the house and out of sight. There is a path on the left and it leads to a wall. The cameras won't see you there. Hurry. He pressed a hard kiss to my mouth, then crawled out the window. I watched as he slowly lowered himself down, his biceps bulging with the effort. Before we graduated last month, he'd been one of the most popular boys in our senior class and captain of the hockey team. I was going to miss him when I left for college in August. David dropped to his feet and then gave me a salute suit. I blew him a kiss and shut the window, my mind already racing to Papa and the guests. After a quick shower, I braided my wet hair and dabbed concealer under my eyes. A swipe of mascara later, I threw on a prim dress that covered most of my body, as my father preferred. Instead of flats, I put on a pair of heels. I was tall, but I liked the way I looked in heels, like nothing could stop me. Intimidating. Fierce. The house was quiet, my sisters still asleep. The 16 year old twins, Emma and Gia, usually stayed up well into the night watching movies and talking to their friends online. I would miss them when I went away to school, but they didn't need me as much these days. They would be fine after I left. My heels popped on the marble floors as I approached my father's office. I rarely went in here, seeing as how I'd rather not know what Papa was really doing most of the time. Ignorance was bliss when it came to having a family member in the Mafia, let alone running it. I knocked and waited until I heard my father's voice telling me to come in. He was seated behind his desk, and the room was full of men in suits. Some faces were familiar, like Uncle Reggie and my cousin Dante, but the others were strangers, and they all stared at me.

[D]

Francisco, Come in.

[C]

My father stood and buttoned his suit jacket. Swallowing my nerves, I approached his desk. You wanted to see me?

[D]

Yes. This is Fausto Ravazzani.

[C]

A man unfolded from the armchair, and my heart leapt into my throat. I'd never seen such a handsome man before, one with such thick, wavy dark hair and piercing blue eyes. He was trim, with a chiseled jaw and broad shoulders, and his suit fit him perfectly. He looked to be in his late 30s, and under any other circumstances I would have guessed him a former model or actor. No one looked and dressed like this unless they were dependent on their looks for a living, but this was no prima donna. Power rolled off his taut frame in waves, like he was in control of everyone and everything around him. The men accompanying him clearly weren't his friends. They were guards. He was someone important, someone worth protecting. And he seemed dangerous. I nodded once. Mr. Ravazzany. His eyes drifted over my face and down my body as if I were a horse he was considering purchasing. Tingles broke out along my skin wherever he looked, but I couldn't tell if it was from excitement or embarrassment. Even more confusing, my nipples hardened and my thin bra, which I hoped he wouldn't notice. The smirk on his face when he met my gaze told me he was aware of the state of my nipples.

[D]

You are 18.

[C]

The words rolled out of his mouth with an Italian accent, and my heart gave an ominous thump in my chest. Were these men from Toronto? I doubted it. No one in my father's employ had an accent this thick. Yes, sir. He nodded once to my father.

[D]

She'll do.

[C]

She'll do. Do for what? I asked. My father shot me a quick look before addressing Ravazani.

[D]

Excellent. We'll plan the wedding for next month.

[C]

Wedding? I screeched. No, no, no. I was supposed to go to college first. My mother made my father promise that all three of their daughters would be educated before marriage. I was counting on it. What wedding? Quiet, Francesca, my father hissed. I glanced at my cousin, hoping to find answers, but Dante wouldn't meet my eye, which meant this was bad. Really bad. Normally, he relished my unhappiness. One of Ravatsani's men entered and leaned down to speak in his ear. The edge of Ravatsani's mouth curled as he listened. Then he waved the man away. Returning his attention to my father, he said, no.

[D]

The wedding will take place at my home in Siderno, where Giulio resides. We leave tomorrow.

[C]

Giulio? And wait. Siderno? As in Italy? What the fuck was happening? Lines deepened on my father's forehead.

[D]

But what about me and my family? We have a right to stiffening.

[C]

Ravazzani glared at my father, and the mood in the room went arctic.

[D]

Be very, very careful, Roberto, he said softly. You lost your rights when you lost my shipment. Yikes.

[C]

No one moved and the moment stretched. I'd never seen anyone put my father in his place before. No one had ever dared. I held my breath until my father finally put up his hands. He apologized. This appeared to appease Ravatsani, but I still had no idea what they were talking about. Will someone please tell me what is going on? I blurted, unable to hold back any longer. Ravatsani moved quickly, stepping closer until he towered over me. His irises were so blue with hints of gray, but they didn't seem angry. Instead, he appeared amused.

[D]

You have spirit. That's good. You will need it.

[C]

Piccolina walking around me. He went to the door, trailed by five of his men.

[D]

I expect her ready, Mancini, he said over his shoulder.

[C]

Anger burned in my chest Expected me, ready like I was a piece of luggage. No one was carting me off to Italy. I was going to school in New York City, not getting married to some scary Italian man who was most definitely in the Mafia. When the door closed, I rounded on my father. Papa, what is this all about? He dragged a hand down his face and dropped into his chair. Uncle Reggie and Dante didn't move, but the rest of my father's men left the room.

[D]

Sit, Frankie.

[C]

I'd rather not. I'd rather stand until I know what's happening. Papa slapped a hand against the surface of his desk.

[D]

For fuck's sake, do as you're told.

[C]

I hated when he spoke to me so coldly, like I was one of his men. Dante shook his head, clearly indicating he thought I was an idiot, and Uncle Reggie wore his usual frown, pushing away the hurt and confusion. I slid into a chair. There. Now please explain what is happening.

[D]

You have been chosen to wed Ravazani's heir, Giulio. It's a good match, Frankie. An honor, really.

[C]

An honor. I stared at the man who'd promised I would receive a college degree before marriage. Who said I could have my choice in a husband. Empty lies, every single one. Absolutely not. I won't marry some stranger in Italy. I don't want a Mafia husband. I'm going to school in the fall. My father's face hardened into a scary.

[D]

Expression, one I'd never seen before.

[C]

I suspected this was his Nadrina face, the Mafia leader who did terrible things with no remorse.

[D]

You will do as you are told or people will die. People in this family. Is that what you want?

[C]

The thread hung in the air between us, and I thought of my twin sisters upstairs, asleep and trusting, with no idea I was being forced to choose a life. I didn't want to secure their safety. It's no choice at all. I would do anything for them. Though I was just two years older, I had been the one to care for them after my mother's death. I taught them about boys and periods, helped them buy bras, dried their tears and managed their screen time. The backs of my eyelids started to burn. Why is this happening?

[D]

Alliances through marriage are a part of our world. There is nothing anyone can do to prevent this. I expect you to do your duty and make Julio happy.

[C]

I pressed a hand to my stomach, trying to ease the sudden cramping of my insides. How had my future changed so drastically? But you promised, I said weakly, fighting tears. His expression didn't budge.

[D]

My promises to the Ndrangheta come first. Now do not dishonor me. This is an opportunity for us to gain more power through your husband's family. Ravazzani is one of the wealthiest men in Italy, the head of one of the largest clans, the Ndrina, which bears his name.

[C]

Power, wealth, was that all anyone cared about? I rubbed my eyes, uncaring if I smeared my mascara. This isn't fair. Grow up, Frankie, dante sneered.

[D]

Shavazani is one of the highest ranking men in all of the Ndrangheta.

[C]

You'll be married to his son, who will inherit everything one day. Any woman in our circle would kill for this chance. Screw you, Dante. I don't want to marry a boss, I snapped. I want to go to school and get a degree like I had been promised. College meant freedom from my father and his men. It meant living in New York City and going to clubs and bars, dating boys and drinking too much. I would study and have a career and live a normal life before I had to marry. It was all my mother had wanted for her girls. Be your own woman, Francesca. Don't make my mistakes. She was a top Italian model before she met and married my father. While their marriage had been a love match at first, she said, she always regretted giving up her career for him. Stop, my father said.

[D]

You're acting childish. It's been decided. Go up and pack your things. I expect you to be ready first thing tomorrow. But not another word, Francisco. You are leaving with Fausto Ravazzani, and that is final.

[C]

I pressed my lips together and rose. The man said nothing as I left, thinking I'd agreed that I'd willingly cross an ocean and marry a man I hadn't met just because my father screwed up with some mysterious shipment. They should have known better.