RERUN: Trailblazer Beverly Jenkins

Summary

Fated Mates Podcast – RERUN: Trailblazer Beverly Jenkins (May 18, 2026)

Overview

In this special trailblazer episode of Fated Mates, hosts Sarah MacLean and Jen Prokop sit down with Beverly Jenkins—legendary romance author and icon of historical Black romance—to capture her journey, insights, and legacy in the genre. Jenkins shares vivid stories from the beginnings of her career, publishing history, the challenges she faced as a Black woman writer, her relationship with her editors, the seismic shifts in romance publishing, and the enduring warmth of her relationship with readers. The conversation is rich with history, laughter, and Jenkins’ signature candor and warmth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Early Reading & Representation

• Childhood Reading & Lack of Representation
  • Beverly discusses growing up reading widely, despite not seeing herself reflected in books except for classics insisted upon by her mother.
    • “There was nothing in the books that represented me… But it didn't stop me from reading. I love a good story.” (03:07 – 05:05)
  • Influences: Beanie Malone series, Mary Stewart, Victoria Holt, and more.

Origin Story: Becoming a Writer

• Why She Began Writing
  • Motivated by Toni Morrison’s philosophy: “If it’s not out there and you want to read it, then you need to write it.” (05:37 – 06:00)
  • Initial writing was personal, not for publication, given limited industry opportunities for Black authors at the time.
• The Manuscript That Started It All
  • Night Song began as a story for herself while working at Michigan State University’s graduate library. She details balancing her writing with her career and personal life. (07:42 – 10:11)
  • “I had no idea it was going to be published…because I already had my dream job.” (08:10)

Journey to Publication

• Laverne St. George’s Pivotal Role
  • A work colleague, Laverne, encouraged and pushed Beverly to seek publication. Jenkins humorously recounts being “harassed” into submitting her manuscript. (09:00 – 13:19)
• Pre-Digital Writing & Submission Challenges
  • Describes the physically grueling process of writing and revising a manuscript pre-computers—typewriters, whiteout, literal cut-and-paste editing, and mailing submissions. (10:08 – 12:39)
  • “You have to be a commit... you have to commit to being a writer at this point, because that was a lot of work.” – Sarah MacLean (12:44)
• Finding an Agent & Facing Rejections
  • Sent manuscript to Vivian Stephens (trailblazing Black romance editor/agent).
  • Rejection letters cited “great writing, BUT...” with uncertainty about how to sell a historical Black romance that wasn't about slavery. (16:02 – 16:36)
  • “If I had been set on getting published, all those rejections would have probably broken my heart… But I had my dream job.” (16:13 – 16:34)

Breaking Ground: Publication and Aftermath

• Night Song’s Acquisition
  • Jenkins describes the landmark decision by Avon to acquire Night Song, prompted by industry competition (notably the rise of the Arabesque line for Black romance). (19:22 – 20:29)
  • “June 3, 1993... the phone rang and it was Ellen. And she said she wanted to buy my book. So of course, I stopped the fight.” (19:23 – 20:17)
• Market Response & Community Impact
  • Emotional reader reactions to seeing Night Song in bookstores.
  • “One woman sat… right there on the floor and started reading.” (00:00, repeated at 23:50)
• First Contracts and Editorial Experience
  • Details working with editor Ellen Edwards, who “taught me how to write commercial fiction.” (22:55–23:55)
  • “She was absolutely amazing... she taught me the differences in writing a romp as opposed to a period piece.” (22:55)
• Covers and Recognition
  • Tom Egnor’s iconic covers often won awards, which Jenkins would send to him as a gesture of gratitude. (24:35–25:02)

Building Community & Legacy

• Direct Reader Connections
  • Formation of the Beverly Jenkins Fan Club and annual pajama parties for fans, starting around 1999. (28:42–29:56)
  • Intimate fan experiences: “We had formed this sisterhood... and nobody wanted to go home.” (29:56)
  • Jenkins’ mother, an early “marketing director,” would move books around stores and hand out book lists to shoppers. (37:51–38:40)
• Navigating Bookstore Segregation
  • Discussion on the “Black section” in bookstores and disparities in shelving, with Jenkins’ books sometimes appearing in multiple sections (even Men’s Health!). (34:47–37:43)
  • Advocates for discoverability for younger writers of color. (37:42–38:40)

Changes in the Genre & Industry

• Technological Shifts
  • From manual revisions and snail mail to computers, Scrivener, Google, and social media. (39:05–40:03)
• Diversity & The Modern Romance Landscape
  • “The model is no longer blonde and blue eyed in a size five. Everybody gets to have HEA now, no matter who you are... Love is love.” (39:25)
  • Explicit shift away from “rapey” romance; increasing focus on consent and diverse stories. (40:01)
• Indie Romance’s Impact
  • Salutes indie authors for opening industry doors, expanding what’s possible in romance. (40:46–42:20)
  • “The biggest seismic shift for me has been the rise of indie writers. Their refusal to be told no, their bravery... They changed the industry.” (41:26–42:19)

Interactions with Publishers and the Market

• Marketing and Publisher Support
  • Jenkins recounts mixed experiences with publisher investment, noting that after her husband’s death, Avon’s Adrienne DiPietro significantly upped her promotion and support. (32:48–34:06)
• Changes in Bookstores
  • Discusses the decline of vibrant book signings and the simplified discoverability with more varied shelving in her early years. (40:42–41:28)

Social Media & Reader Relationships

• Social Media’s Role
  • Wider reach and deeper engagement with readers, especially via Twitter.
  • “I don’t think [social media] changed [my relationship with readers]. I think it’s expanded my base.” (42:29–44:07)
• Advice to New Writers
  • “Treat your readers like they're the gold that they are, because they are gold.” (43:50)

Writing Across Subgenres

• Branching Out into Contemporary, Romantic Suspense, and YA
  • Jenkins describes how she responded to editorial requests for contemporaries, romantic suspense, and young adult stories, sometimes dusting off very old manuscripts. (44:31–48:11)
  • “Characters in my Avon Romantic Suspense are descendants of my historical characters.” (46:37)
• Blessing Series and “Small Town” Romance
  • The Blessing series began when her editor Nancy sold the concept before Jenkins was aware, exemplifying publisher-driven expansion. (48:18–50:12)

Hollywood & Television Projects

• Film and Adaptations
  • Shares updates on adaptations, including film projects and discussions with Hallmark and Sony. (50:40–52:14)
  • Humorous take on not watching Hallmark due to lack of Black representation at the time. (51:04–51:44)

Reflections on Legacy and Craft

• Legacy and Influence
  • Jenkins stays humble about her influence, saying, “Your legacy should be written by somebody else, not yourself.” (54:35)
  • Focuses on writing stories that elevate Black history and “poke holes in stereotypes.” (54:51)
• Hallmarks of a Beverly Jenkins Novel
  • “Entertainment, education, heroines who know who they are and the men who love them madly… Banter, community, pushing the envelope on gender and race, centering dark-skinned Black women, and inspiration.” (55:53–56:45)
• Milestone Works
  • Night Song, Indigo, the Blessings series, her YA novels, and Edge of Midnight—each representing unique readerships and achievements. (57:29–58:11)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Representation:
  • “There was nothing in the books that represented me… But it didn't stop me from reading.” — Beverly Jenkins (03:07)
• On Starting Night Song:
  • “Buffalo Soldier and a Schoolteacher had no idea it was going to be published.” — Beverly Jenkins (08:11)
• On Facing Rejection:
  • “Great writing, but what do we do with it?” — Beverly Jenkins quoting rejection letters (16:34)
• On Her First Book Deal:
  • “The phone rang and it was Ellen. And she said she wanted to buy my book. So of course I stopped the fight.” — Beverly Jenkins (20:17)
• On Editorial Mentorship:
  • “She taught me how to write commercial fiction… She was absolutely amazing.” — Beverly Jenkins on Ellen Edwards (22:55)
• On Indie Authors:
  • “Their refusal to be told no, their bravery… They changed the industry.” — Beverly Jenkins (41:26–42:19)
• On Readers:
  • “I always tell my fans when I count my blessings, I count them twice because they have been, I wouldn’t be here without them.” — Beverly Jenkins (43:50)
• On Legacy:
  • “I just like the idea of writing it and elevating our history and poking holes in the stereotypes… and always, always portraying the race in a positive way. So I don’t know, is that a legacy?” — Beverly Jenkins (54:35)
• On the Hallmarks of Her Novels:
  • “Entertainment, education, heroines who know who they are and the men who love them madly.” — Beverly Jenkins (55:53)
• On Her Covers:
  • “Oh, hell, that’ll wake a sister up!” — Beverly Jenkins on seeing the Nighthawk cover model for the first time (58:58)

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-------------|------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00–02:48 | Introduction, Night Song’s significance | | 03:07–06:36 | Early reading habits and literary influences | | 07:42–10:11 | How Night Song began, early writing process | | 10:45–13:14 | Typewriters, whiteout, the pre-digital writing era | | 13:14–16:36 | Laverne St. George, finding representation, rejections | | 19:23–20:29 | Night Song acquired by Avon | | 22:55–23:55 | Ellen Edwards’ mentorship | | 24:35–25:33 | Cover art and recognition | | 28:42–29:56 | Beverly Jenkins Fan Club, first pajama parties | | 34:47–38:40 | Bookstore shelving, market obstacles, mother's support | | 39:05–42:19 | Changes in the genre: technology, diversity, indie | | 42:29–44:07 | Social media, reader relationships | | 44:31–48:11 | Branching into contemporaries, romantic suspense, YA | | 48:18–50:12 | Blessing series origins | | 50:40–52:14 | Film and television adaptations | | 54:35–56:45 | Reflections on legacy, impact, Jenkins’ “hallmarks” | | 57:29–58:11 | Milestone books and reader reactions | | 58:20–60:38 | Cover stories (Nighthawk), fan excitement |

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Conclusion & Takeaways

This episode beautifully encapsulates Beverly Jenkins’ pivotal role as a romance trailblazer. Through laughter, wisdom, and storytelling, she charts the evolution of both her own illustrious career and the wider romance genre—from typewriters to tweets, from exclusion to the celebration of love in all its forms. Jenkins’ persistent humility and reverence for her readers and literary ancestors shine through, making her not just an icon for Black romance or historical fiction, but for all of romance.

Memorable Ending Note:
“I’m just a little black girl from the east side of Detroit trying to write a story that I can be proud of and that those who read it can be proud of.” — Beverly Jenkins (56:45)

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For Further Exploration

• Listen to Beverly Jenkins’ interviews on the [Black Romance Podcast] for more in-depth history.
• Check out her latest romantic suspense, “Rare Danger.”
• Explore her celebrated classics including Night Song, Indigo, and the Blessing series.

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For links, book recommendations, and show notes, visit fatedmates.net. For more on the hosts: Sarah MacLean at sarahmaclean.net and Jen Prokop at jenreadsromance.com.

Transcript

[Beverly Jenkins]

The idea that I was out in the marketplace, the African American readers were just over the moon. Some of the stories they told me of going in the bookstore and seeing Night Song, and the first thing they did was run to the flip to the back to make sure it was written by a black woman. And one woman sat. She sat in the bookstore right there on the floor and started reading.

[Sarah MacLean]

That was the voice of Beverly Jenkins. We are thrilled to have Beverly with us. We've been working on getting her to join us on Fated Mates since season one and pandemics and busyness got in the way. But we're finally here, and it feels right that the first time we talked to Beverly, we're talking to her as part of the Trailblazers series. You will hear her talk about her life, her time, beginning writing, her work, her research publication, her editors and her readers. And we think you'll love it. Welcome to Fated Mates. We are so thrilled to have Beverly Jenkins with us today. Welcome, Beverly.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Thank you. Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here. This is. You know, we've been trying to hook up for a while, so thanks so much for the invite.

[Sarah MacLean]

We really have. And we. I mean, obviously, for many, many reasons, Jen and I have been wanting you to come on Fated Mates to talk about all sorts of things. But I don't know if you remember this, but you and I were together outside of the National Book Festival, what feels like a thousand years ago when we could be with each other, and you started telling me stories about the beginning of, you know, your career and the early days, and it was one of the most, like, magnificent afternoons of my life. And so I am basically just here to make you tell those stories on tape.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Well, I got a million of them, so you'll have to let me know which ones you like. I love it.

[Sarah MacLean]

No, I want to hear them all.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

So we are the conceit of this whole. The work that we're doing right now with our trailblazer guests is to really get the voices of the genre and the voices of the people who built the house on tape and to also say the names of the people who maybe we have not heard of the. Not Beverly Jenkins. So that's why we're doing this. That's why we think it's important, and that's why we are so grateful to have you with us.

[Beverly Jenkins]

I'm proud to. Proud to represent. So hit me up with your first question.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Well, I think one of the things we're always really. And this is true for all romance writers Readers, everybody. Which is, how did you come to romance? How did you become a reader and a writer of romance?

[Beverly Jenkins]

But, you know, I tell the story about. I grew up reading everything, you know, I. I was one of those kids that read everything in the neighborhood library, from the kitty books to the teen books to the adult books. This would be late 50s, early 60s, I think. I got my first library card when I was like eight. So that would have been like 1959. Right. But there was nothing in the books that represented me and the classics, of course, that my mom would make us read or insist we read. You know, Langston Hughes and Barn Tamps and, you know those folks. But for popular literature, there was nothing. But it didn't stop me from reading. You know, I love a good story. So in my journey through Mark Twain Library, that was the name of the library, east side of Detroit, Gratiot and Burns. It's no longer there. And I'll tell you a terrible story about that eventually. But they had. When I got to the teen books and I read Beanie Malone. I don't know if you're familiar with, with the Beanie Malone books. YA family, small town. Beanie was the. The youngest kid. So you had her adventures. You had 17th summer, which I think everybody my age read. And then I moved to Mary Stewart. You know, Disrupt Magic, all those great books. So then that brought in Victoria Holt and Phyllis, Whitney and Jane. I can Hodge.

[Sarah MacLean]

Victoria Holt is one of those names that comes up every time you talk to a group of romance novelists who started, you know, young.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah, she was there. So read her. Charlotte Armstrong, I don't know if you're familiar with her. She's got a great book. What is the name of that book? The Gift Shop, I think. Awesome. And it's, you know, it's, it's. It's a sweet romance, but it's a young woman who is on a quest with this guy to. Somebody left some kind of a. If I can remember correctly, some kind of a secret something inside of a gift shop. And they were. It was inside of a little like glass pig. So she and this guy are traveling all over. I don't know if it was the world. I think it was a country trying to run down these pigs to get whatever it was that was inside. And it's just a great story and probably holds up pretty well. I haven't read it in a thousand years, even if it's still in print.

[Sarah MacLean]

I'm going to report in. I'm going to find this book too.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Now. I'm so.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah, yeah. Charlotte Armstrong, the gift shop. Great. You know, and then you had stuff like Cash McCall that they made the movie with, with Nellie woods and James Garner, I think so. Had always loved a good love story. You know, you had the, the Doris Day and the, you know, James Garner and, you know, and all of that. And you know, my sisters and I, I've got five sisters, four sisters. Three of us are stair steps. So, you know, we, we. We loved, you know, that kind of stuff. So, so reading and pop, pop culture. But like I said, there was nothing that reflected us. But, you know. And then you got the Toni Morrison quote. You know, if it's not out there and you want to read it, then you need to write it. But I was just writing it for me. I wasn't writing it for publication because the market was closed. So that's sort of how I got started, I guess. A long winded answer to your question.

[Sarah MacLean]

So when you say you weren't writing it for the market, that. So walk us through kind of putting pen to paper. And then. Okay, I mean, now you're in the market, right?

[Beverly Jenkins]

So how did that. Right now I'm in the market. Now I'm in the marketplace. There were, you know, other than. And I did not read those. Cause I didn't even know they existed. Elsie Washington and Vivian, who really started this industry for us, the American side of it. Have you heard her interview with the Black Romance podcast?

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, my God, it's fantastic. We'll put links to it in show notes, everybody.

[Beverly Jenkins]

It's just amazing. So Elsie and Sandra, you know, I had no idea they were out there, but I was writing for me. And this was like God, BC before children. It was just, you know, me and hubby. Right?

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Yes.

[Beverly Jenkins]

You know, we were like, no, we're not having no kids. We are having too much fucking fun.

[Sarah MacLean]

Were you writing historical? Were you writing contemporary? What?

[Beverly Jenkins]

I was writing Night song.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Beverly Jenkins]

I was writing night Song. I didn't know I was writing a night song at the time, though. You know, I had no title or anything. But it was just a story for me. And I would come home from. Cause I was working at the Michigan State University graduate library and I'd come home. He had played tennis in high school, so he would come home. Cause he was a printer back then. So he'd come home, clean up from all that ink. You know, he had ink in his fro and all of that ink in his nose. He had ink coming out of the backs of his hands for Years. Because there was no OSHA back then, you know.

[Sarah MacLean]

Right.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah. So he'd come home, clean up, grab his tennis racket and go play tennis, and I would read because, you know, you work at a graduate library, you know, and the little old ladies and cataloging love me. So I could go through, you know, the back halls of the library and grab stuff off people's carts, you know, mainly, you know, science fiction, which is what I mainly read back then, take them home. So if I wasn't reading it, I was working on this little story just for me. Buffalo Soldier and a Schoolteacher had no idea it was going to be published or would get published because I already had my dream job. I was working in the library. That's all I ever wanted out of life, you know. And then I met Laverne. I was working in Park Davis.

[Sarah MacLean]

Who's Laverne?

[Beverly Jenkins]

Laverne. Laverne. Laverne is the reason we're here today. Her and my mama. She writes under Laverne St. George. She's a sweet romance writer. And this is probably. Oh, let's see, if I was working at Park Davis, this is probably somewhere between 85 and 90. And Laverne had just gotten her first book published. We were working at the Park Davis Pharmaceutical Library, which was a whole different story. That's a whole different conversation. Park Davis was probably one of the. Maybe one of the first big pharma companies started in Detroit, and they moved from Detroit to Ann Arbor, which is where I was working. So she had just gotten the sweet romance published by a small publisher here in Michigan. So we're celebrating her. And I was talking about this little manuscript I was working on, and she wanted to see it. And I knew, you know, she was a member of RWA back then. All. You know, I didn't know anything about any of that. I'm just writing this story, right? So I bring it in, and she said, you really need to get this published.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Did you hand write this manuscript? Is it typed? What does this look like?

[Beverly Jenkins]

Oh, okay. It was. I had this little. What we used to call clothes and play typewriter.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Okay.

[Beverly Jenkins]

You know, you could carry it.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, yeah. They were very lightweight, Right?

[Beverly Jenkins]

Very lightweight. You opened it. You open it like you open a laptop.

[Sarah MacLean]

Giant.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's little. And I had one of those. So it was very bad because I couldn't type back then at all. Very badly typed. In fact, my husband's secretary wound up typing it once I got it ready for publication. But most of it, though, at the Beginning was handwritten.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, nobody. This is one of those minor little things, but nobody realizes how much work it was to write a book at this point. If I had to do this, there would be no. We would not know each other,

[Beverly Jenkins]

girl.

[Sarah MacLean]

Right.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

That's why I was so curious. It had to be.

[Beverly Jenkins]

It was so. You know, once we got published. Right. There was no. You know, we were using word processors because this was before computers.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Yeah.

[Beverly Jenkins]

And it was all cut and paste for revisions. And I mean, actually cut and paste. I mean, you would have to. Okay. When you did revisions, you had to cut fake pieces out, tape them in, and then tape them to the pages. So you may have something. And then you have to fold it up so you may have something that unscrolls from me to you in Chicago, you know? Fold it up. Yeah. You know, when you. You know, you got tons of whiteout. Oh, yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, Remember whiteout?

[Beverly Jenkins]

Put it in a mailer. Oh, God. Whiteout. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Our young listeners are like, what's white out?

[Beverly Jenkins]

I know. I guess they're using whiteout now for something else. But, yeah, it's a little thing that you could paint over your bad mistakes and you could type over it once it dried, you had to wait for it to dry, though.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Yes. Oh, and if you did it, then

[Sarah MacLean]

it gummed up the typewriter.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah. It would get. Your keys would get all gunky.

[Sarah MacLean]

We'll put it in show notes. Learn about whiteout in show notes.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Oh, God. Yeah. Lord have mercy. You know, and then you'd have to call FedEx to come get it.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. There was no, like. I mean, me sliding in, like, two minutes before midnight on the day.

[Beverly Jenkins]

No, you can't. You had to send it. Well, you know, you had to have an account because they'd come pick it up from your house. Yeah, it was a mess.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Sorry, I. I know that's a digression, but I was.

[Sarah MacLean]

No, but, Jen, it's so.

[Beverly Jenkins]

No, it's a great question. It's a great question.

[Sarah MacLean]

Sort of. It speaks to this kind of mentality, the time, but also the commitment. Like, you have to be a commit. You have to commit to being a writer at this point, because that was

[Beverly Jenkins]

a lot of work. Oh, my God. You know, the folks are using Scrivener and even Microsoft Word. You have no idea what a joy living the high life. Oh, God. So, yeah, we had all that to do.

[Sarah MacLean]

So anyway, so Laverne had published her first book.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Right. And she published her first book.

[Sarah MacLean]

And I had Night Song.

[Beverly Jenkins]

And I had Night Song. And I tell folks, you know, she harassed me every day. She and I laugh because we're still good friends. She laughs about me telling people that she harassed me every day at work. But I think she did, at least. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. And I don't know how I found Vivian. I cannot tell you how I found Vivian. I think maybe by then I was reading Romantic Times, and maybe, you know, she showed up in there or something.

[Sarah MacLean]

Anyway, so wait, this is a good point. There used to be a romance magazine. And it was called Romantic Times. And you could subscribe to it if you were a romance fan. You subscribed to it, and there were reviews in it and interviews with your favorite authors. And if you were a romance author, it was like Time magazine for romance authors. Like, if you. If you ended up on the COVID of Romantic Times. Stop it. You were on your way.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah, you were on your way. Your way. They were some of my biggest supporters at the beginning. I will always.

[Sarah MacLean]

Mine, too.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Grateful to Catherine Falk. But I don't know how I found Vivian. So I sent her my little raggedy manuscript just to get Laverne off my ass.

[Sarah MacLean]

Harlequin, at this point, no, she's.

[Beverly Jenkins]

No, she was.

[Sarah MacLean]

She was gone.

[Beverly Jenkins]

She was freelance. She was gone. They let her go back then.

[Sarah MacLean]

Okay.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah, she was on her own.

[Sarah MacLean]

So we're in the late. The late 80s.

[Beverly Jenkins]

We're late 80s? Yeah. We're almost at 90. We might be even at 90. Because they bought the book in 93. Sent her my little raggedy manuscript. Cause it was bad. Oh, my God.

[Sarah MacLean]

Don't believe it, girl Let me tell you stories.

[Beverly Jenkins]

It was bad. Anyway, so she called me at work. Cause I was working at the reference desk.

[Sarah MacLean]

On the phone.

[Beverly Jenkins]

On the phone. And said, you know, she wanted to represent me. So me not knowing anything, you know, about this whole process, I was like, sure, okay.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Sold.

[Beverly Jenkins]

You know, so. Right.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Seems nice.

[Beverly Jenkins]

I don't think we ever had a

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

nice lady calling you.

[Sarah MacLean]

So was she running an. She was running an agency at this point, right.

[Beverly Jenkins]

A small agency out of her house. And she had me, and she had Pat Vaughn, Patricia Vaughn, who just sort of disappeared. I don't know whatever happened to her. Murmur of Rain, which came out right after Nightsong did. And I don't think Vivian and I even signed a contract. This was just a sure handshake deal. Yeah, it was just a verbal kind of thing, so took us a while to sell it. I got enough rejections to paper all of our houses. Because they didn't know what to do with it.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Well, and my question is, is, like, how clear was it to you that we don't know what to do with it means, like, we just aren't gonna carry black romance.

[Beverly Jenkins]

No, there was no box for it. Yeah. You know, and even with romance and, you know, and, like. And I didn't care. I mean, probably. If I had been set on getting published, all of those rejections would have probably broken my heart, of course. But I had a dream job. I was getting up every morning, going to the library. I could care less about a rejection letter. But the interesting thing was they all said the same thing, basically. Great writing, but great writing, but what

[Sarah MacLean]

do we do with it?

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah. And, you know, because 19th century America, American history, even, you know, 1990, if it's a 19th century story involving black people, it should have been about slavery. Right. So here I come with.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

We know how to sell it if it's roots, right?

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah, if it's roots. Barely. We know how to sell it if it's roots. And you have to remember that there were only maybe three black romances out there. I mean, Vivian had the connections to send it to everybody.

[Sarah MacLean]

So let's talk about who that is. Who. Who were the other names who were writing black romance? And they certainly. They weren't writing historical. You were the.

[Beverly Jenkins]

No, no. Anita Richmond Bunkley had written Black Gold, which was not really a romance, more like women's fiction, but it was historical, about a woman in an oil field family in Texas. And she had also written Emily, Emily the Rose. It's about a free black woman in Texas in the 1820s and 1830s and her journey. And it wasn't a romance either.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, there was rape and Emily the Yellow Rose.

[Beverly Jenkins]

There you go. Okay. Yeah, yeah. We don't talk too much. We don't talk very much about Anita very much. In fact, I've neglected to talk about it for years, you know, And I was going through some stuff last night just so I could be prepared for this, and came across a bunch of stuff. I was like, oh, man, I forgot about this. I forgot about that. I forgot this. You know? But anyway, nobody was writing historical romance, so they're looking for a book. Slavery. That's the box. So here I come with a story with a buffalo soldier and Oberlin Educated schoolteacher in a free black town on the plains of Kansas, 1879. And they're like, what the hell is this? What are we supposed to do with this? We don't know what to do. So I Do remember one editor at. I don't know what house she was at, but she sent me a very, very encouraging letter. And she said she really, really wanted. And she was just. I think she's like an executive editor now, and she's. And she was just a baby assistant back then. And she said she really, really, really wanted to publish this, she said, but she could not convince the higher ups to take it, you know. And like I said, I didn't care. You know, I was working to the library in the morning, you know, hey, hello. Then came, I guess, the news, and I didn't know anything about this, that Walter Zacharias was going to be putting out the Arabesillon.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Oh, sure.

[Beverly Jenkins]

And it was my understanding that Avon didn't want to get left behind because you knew they were the number one publisher of romance back then and they couldn't find anybody. So Allen Edwards, who used to be Vivian's assistant, back when Vivian was working in that closet with the candlelights, called her and said, do you have anybody? Do you know anybody? And she said, well, I just happen to know this little lady in Michigan. And so she called me. June 3, 1993. I told a story about my husband and I having this hell of a fight that day. Like I said, I don't know what we were fighting about. Something stupid, probably. And the phone rang and it was Ellen. And she said she wanted to buy my book. So of course I stopped the fight.

[Sarah MacLean]

Some things are important.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Oh, yeah. You know, he was like, I guess I gotta take your little ass to dinner. Yes, you gonna take my ass to dinner. So they kept sending me contracts.

[Sarah MacLean]

This was 1993.

[Beverly Jenkins]

This is 1993. And the book came out in 94. Summer of Black Love is what we called it because that was also the summer that Arabesque released their first four or five. So on the road from there.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

So once you sold Night Song, did you immediately start working? I mean, at that point, how did you start to balance the idea of, I have my dream job, but now I also have a writing job?

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah, I didn't know what I was doing. It was all. It feels very real, you know, I had no idea what the hell I was doing because I had. I had the writing, I had the job, I had the kids, I had the hats that I was wearing in the community, the hats I was wearing at church. I had a Brownie troupe, you know, and because I was a stay at home mom, you know, after we. We adopted Jonathan, my son, early on, too, in the career. So as a Stay at home, Mom. So then I'm doing field trips and I'm, you know, doing snow cones on Friday at school, you know, and all of this stuff. The kids are in the band and, you know, and luckily, all praises to my late hubby, because that first deadline and ellen sent me 14 page revision

[Sarah MacLean]

letter on Night Song.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Oh, yeah, because it was bad. She was like, bev, no, we love the love scenes. We need a story. And I was like, riya, you need a story. Really?

[Sarah MacLean]

I just want to say something about Ellen Edwards because we have sort of danced around her in the past on Fated Mates, but you are the first of her authors who we've had on. And she was editing this. This is. She was editing the heyday of, like, the 90s authors.

[Beverly Jenkins]

She was amazing at Harper.

[Sarah MacLean]

She edited for our listeners. She edited Lisa Claypis, Dreaming of youf. She edited.

[Beverly Jenkins]

She was amazing.

[Sarah MacLean]

Loretta. Loretta Chase's Lord of Scoundrels. She edited you'd.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

I mean, that's amazing.

[Sarah MacLean]

This woman was. She was on the. She was. She was building romance, too, right? And really, like, setting a lot of things in play.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

So. What.

[Sarah MacLean]

What. So talk about that a little bit. Like, what. What was the feeling like right around then?

[Beverly Jenkins]

You know, it was. It was interesting because, you know, she taught me how to write commercial fiction. You know, I will always be grateful for her because of. And we had some. We had some. Some bumps. I bet we had some bumps. And she's the reason I'm here. She taught me the differences in writing a romp as opposed to, you know, a period piece, to. She was absolutely amazing. And when she left, her assistant, Christine Zikas, was amazing because Christine edited Vivid and she edited Indigo. Okay. So we'll always be grateful to her for those two. So I guess I was doing okay. They kept offering me contracts.

[Sarah MacLean]

You were doing great.

[Beverly Jenkins]

You know, it wasn't a whole lot of money. I wasn't making a lot of money. But the idea that I was out in the marketplace, the African American readers were just over the moon. Some of the stories they told me of going in the bookstore and seeing Night Song, and, you know, the first thing they did was run to the. You know, flip to the back to make sure it was written by a black woman. And one woman sat. She sat in the bookstore right there on the floor and started reading.

[Sarah MacLean]

That's amazing. You know, well, these. Also the COVID it had that original cover that. It's like a burnt orange cover with a clinch on it, right?

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Oh, it's so good.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, it's such a beautiful cover.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Tom Egnor gave me. Just, you know, I'm always grateful to him. He gave me some just fabulous, fabulous covers. And, you know, a lot of times, you know, I would win, you know, cover of the year and all of that. And I always sent the awards to him.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, that's what a decent person.

[Beverly Jenkins]

And he said, nobody's ever done this before. I said, well, I didn't do the COVID You did, so put it on your. On your whatever.

[Sarah MacLean]

You know, for those of you listening, Tom Egnor was the head of the art department at Avon. He basically designed all those clinch covers.

[Beverly Jenkins]

I know he was amazing. I miss him a lot. But then Avon's always got great art, you know, so. But I do miss him. So. Yeah. So then, you know, we got the People magazine spread right after Night Song. I think it was in February of book came out in 94. The spread, five pages.

[Sarah MacLean]

Wow.

[Beverly Jenkins]

And People magazine in February, 95. And.

[Sarah MacLean]

And what was that about you?

[Beverly Jenkins]

It's about the book and me and, you know, pictures of my husband and pictures of my kitchen and all of that. And the lady who did the article's name was Nancy Drew. That was her real name. And I got, you know, calls from people all over the country. Open my People magazine, and there you are. And I'm like, yes, it is me. It is. I. You know, I have arrived. But very, very heady days in the beginning.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. When did you know that romance was a huge thing and that you were making waves? I guess that's two questions. So, yeah, it is.

[Beverly Jenkins]

You know, and I have girlfriends who tell me that I really don't know how influential I have been. You know, I'm just writing, you know, I'm just trying to tell the stories that I would have loved to have read as a teen or, you know, a young woman in my 20s or even my 30s. But I, you know, I. I don't. You know, I'm still amazed that there are. That people are buying my books. You know, my mom used to tell me, she said, well, that's a good. That's a good thing, you know, so that you're not, you know, jaded or whatever and entitled and all of that. I'm still amazed.

[Sarah MacLean]

Did you feel at the time like something was happening in the world, though? Did it feel like. Or was it just sort of, you know, life?

[Beverly Jenkins]

It was just sort of life. I mean, yeah, you know, we were changing in the sense that you had more black women writing, you know, Brenda and Donna Hill and Shirley Hillstock.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

And now did that feel like it was because of, like, arabesque? Was it just sort of an explosion or.

[Beverly Jenkins]

I think it. I think it was arabesque.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Okay.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Because, you know, they were doing contemporaries and these black women were eating those books up.

[Sarah MacLean]

Sure.

[Beverly Jenkins]

And plus they had a great editor in Monica.

[Sarah MacLean]

Monica Harris.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Monica Harris, yes. And she was just an amazing editor for those women. Rosie's Curl and Weave. She had those anthologies. And they all absolutely loved her. Just loved her. So it was sort of like an explosion.

[Sarah MacLean]

But on the historical side, it was just you.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Still just you.

[Sarah MacLean]

There's no one else.

[Beverly Jenkins]

It was just me. And then the two books by Patricia Vaughn, Murmur Raine. And I don't remember what the second title was. Gail Gunn had done Nowhere to Run. Or was it Nowhere to Hide? Nowhere to Run. I said, you know, Martha Vandelas.

[Sarah MacLean]

So at this point, who is your. You know, whenever we talk to people who came up through, you know, the 90s in romance, there is such a discussion of community, like who you turn to as your group, your people. Who was that for you at this point?

[Beverly Jenkins]

The readers.

[Sarah MacLean]

Talk a little about your readers.

[Beverly Jenkins]

It was the readers. I mean, all this fan mail is getting. And then we had two young women here who wanted to start the Beverly Jenkins Fan club.

[Sarah MacLean]

Amazing.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Gloria Walker and Ava Williams. And so they were, you know, it was all snail mail back then. So they were sending out, you know, applications, and they were sending out membership cards and, you know, newsletters and all of that. And I was doing a lot of local touring, a lot of local schools and stuff. And so when I told them that I wanted to have a pajama party, you know, they sort of looked at me like, really?

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

What was the first year that you did that? Do you remember?

[Beverly Jenkins]

Ah, shoot. Maybe 99. Maybe 90.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

A long time that you.

[Beverly Jenkins]

It's been a while. Yeah. But Brenda and I would switch off years. I would do the pajama party one year, and then she'd do her cruise the next year. But we sent out letters. Cause, you know, like I said, there was no computers back then, at least that I was using. And 75 women showed up from all over the country.

[Sarah MacLean]

Amazing.

[Beverly Jenkins]

It is amazing. And we had a hell of a time. And we talked to books, and my husband came because, you know, these were his women, he called them, and they loved him, and he loved them and these women. And Saturday night, when it was time to go home, everybody cried. We had formed this sisterhood, sistership, as we call it, and nobody wanted to go home. So we started doing it every two years. But they were my bottom women in the pimp world. Your bottom woman is your original hoe. Right. And she's the one that keeps everything together and all of that when he starts bringing in new women. So they were my foundation, and a lot of them. Most of them are still with me today. So in the meantime, you know, online is growing. Yes. And people are telling me, you need to be online. And I'm like, no, I don't. I don't need to be online.

[Sarah MacLean]

I have my pajama party ladies.

[Beverly Jenkins]

I have my pajama party ladies.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

I don't need a TikTok.

[Beverly Jenkins]

I don't know. Don't need a TikTok. Don't need a gram.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

This was even before social media. This would have been more like a

[Beverly Jenkins]

webpage or a. Yeah, and it was. We started with a blog. No, we started with a Yahoo group.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, sure, sure.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Okay, that makes sense.

[Beverly Jenkins]

So little did I know that there were other black women reading groups. And one of them was. And I cannot remember what their real name was, but they called themselves the Hotties because they read hot stuff. And this was a group that was connected to Gwen Osborne. And Gwen is sort of like the griot of black romance. She was one of the early reviewers for the Romance Reader. She knows where all the bodies are buried. We sort of combined her group and my group, and that's when we started doing the traveling, going all these different places and all that for African American history kinds of stuff and books. So it. You know, so I'm trying to build my own little empire because I'm not getting a whole lot of support from my publisher. I mean, I guess they were just. One of the. One of the young editors said, well, they just like the cachet of having you. So I'm like, okay, well, I can handle that. I'm still going to go out and do my thing and all of that. But then after my husband passed away in 03, I met Adrian DiPietro, and she was the marketing director for Avon. And we were at one of those Avon dinners in Dallas, those famous dinners.

[Sarah MacLean]

Mm.

[Beverly Jenkins]

She and I were outside smoking. I didn't know who she was. She didn't know who I was. So we hit it off really well, and we got to talking, and, you know, and when we got home about a week later, I got a call from her, and she said, you know what? I have looked at your file, she said, and we have not done a damn thing for you. She said, that's getting ready to change. And it did, because I got a lot of support in the beginning. You know, the first couple years, People magazine. Yeah, right. You know, and then nothing. You know, and I. And I think, too, I tell people, I said, you know what? When my husband passed away, you know, it's like God says, all right, I've taken something very, very precious from you, so how about try this as a replacement? And my career took off. So I don't know if it was the spirit or. I don't know, whatever. Everything in its own time and place is also how I deal with it. So Adrienne just started pushing, doing a lot more for me. I mean, she sent me a box of bookmarks that had to have 20,000 bookmarks in it. I'm like, angela, what am I gonna do with these? I still had half of that box somewhere. Oh, my God.

[Sarah MacLean]

Bookmarks. Oh, God.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Girls. Oh, no. Lord have mercy. But she was amazing. And I was very, very sad when she was let go.

[Sarah MacLean]

I only knew her. She was let go almost immediately after I started.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah, she was amazing. As a marketing director at this point,

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

we have, you know, with, like, the big RWA implosion, there was a lot of talk about how Borders in particular, which is a Michigan, didn't buy black romance. So how aware of were you of, like, the impediments at the bookstore level?

[Beverly Jenkins]

I didn't have that issue.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Okay.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Because I knew the people at Borders did my books for my pajama parties. Oh, okay. Okay. In fact, one of the ladies who was the Kelly who was supervised of that, she and I are still friends. She's out on the coast doing something with some books somewhere. But now Barnes and Noble had issues with still do, but Walden Books, Borders, you know, and that whole thing with Borders and the black section of the bookstore started at one of the stores near me. And the store was run by a black woman. And this was at the height of the hip hop stuff, the urban. Urban stories. And from what I heard, she said the kids didn't know how to use a bookstore. And they would come in and they would ask for, you know, their favorite titles. And she would have to have her people take them by the hand and show them where the spot was. And she got tired of it, so she put them all in one spot. So all she had to do was say, over there. Her sales went through the roof. Corporate, doing nothing but looking at the bottom line instead of the purpose behind it. Said, okay, let's put all the black books in one spot.

[Sarah MacLean]

And everywhere it worked.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Here yeah, you know, so. So now we've got this, you know, Jim Crow kind of section in library, in. In bookstores. But I had a reader tell me one time, she said, Ms. Beth, I found your books in Men's Health.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Good for them. That's where it should be.

[Sarah MacLean]

Those are. They should really be put together. Romance and Men's Health. Yeah.

[Beverly Jenkins]

I mean, Brenda and I and the early arabesque women were always shelved with romance. We were never not shelved with romance. Only in the last whatever, 20 years or so, you know, and it's such a disadvantage for the young women of color who are coming up to not be in the romance section because, you know, it cuts down on discoverability. Of course, you know, I would be nuts if that was happening to me right now. But luckily for me, because, you know, people didn't know any better back then. I was in romance. I was in historicals, I was in African American fiction. I was in Men's Health. I was all over the store, which was great. And then my readers were fierce about making sure the books were available. I would get emails and Facebook messages from women who said, well, I went to five different stores in LA and your book's not there. Or I made them go in the back and get the box out and put your books out.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Amazing.

[Beverly Jenkins]

So, you know, they were an amazing. And then my mother, bless her heart, she go in a bookstore and just move books around.

[Sarah MacLean]

That's what mothers are for. No?

[Beverly Jenkins]

Right, exactly. Right. You know, she said, I had to run out of. You know, we lost her two years ago. She would carry around a one those little bitty spiral notebooks per size, and it had all my books. Every page had all my books on it. And she'd go to the mall and she just handed out to people, this is my daughter's books. This is my daughter books. You know, she was marketing when I had no marketing. She was director of marketing. I remember her saying one time she was in Target, and, you know, I had to tell her mom they were alphabetical. She said, I don't care. Your books are on the bottom. She said, and I looked up and the camera was on me. She said, and I ran out of the store. I said, I don't think they're gonna put you in jail for reroofing yourselves for moving books around.

[Sarah MacLean]

So there obviously has been a shift from when you started in 1993 to now in romance, there have been tons of shifts, like seismic shifts. I feel like romance moves so quickly. Can you kind of speak to the way that, the way you have seen the genre shift over time, you know, both as a writer and like as a person who knows a lot about romance.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah. First we had the, you know, the hardware shift from, you know, cut and paste and white out and all that to computers and Scrivener and Google and you know, because I had to use libraries, of course, when I did my first book. Sure.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

For research.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah, yeah. None of the master Mr. Google. Google, whatever people are calling her today was not available back then. So that's been a seismic shift. The model is no longer blonde and blue eyed in a size five. Everybody gets to have HEA now, no matter who you are, how you identify who you love, because love is love. And that's been an amazing thing. Books are no longer rapey.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Beverly Jenkins]

You know, which was a big issue back in the day. A lot of women didn't want to re romance. Oh, they're rapey. Well, yeah, but it's not really rape. Yes it is. That's changed. We're now all about consent and consent is sexy. And then, you know, but we have fewer houses too. You know, when I started out, God, there had to be like 25 different houses. Now we got what, four, three. Yeah. One maybe coming up.

[Sarah MacLean]

Fewer and fewer. It feels like every day.

[Beverly Jenkins]

I know. Such an incestuous business, you know, they're eating their young all over the place.

[Sarah MacLean]

What about book selling? What about stores and discoverability?

[Beverly Jenkins]

There are fewer stores, you know, you don't have, we don't have book signings like we used to, you know, where people will be lined up outside for books and for autographs and all that. And what I was going to say is the biggest size mix. Seismic shift for me has been the rise of indie writers. Their refusal to be told no, their bravery and stepping out there on faith and saying my story has value. I don't think romance would have opened up the way it has in the last 10 years without them.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Right, agree. Absolutely.

[Beverly Jenkins]

I take my hat off to them because, you know, they were like this, you don't want my stuff? Fine. And now publishing, you know, realizing how much money they've been leaving on the table, you know, they're still not on board all the way, but now they're saying, oh, well, you were successful over there, so how about you come play with us now? And the ladies are saying, sure, but I'm not giving up my independent and I'm still going to do, you know, I'm still going to do hybrid. And they learned the formatting and they learned the marketing and they learned the distribution and how to do the data and looked at the metadata and I'm just amazed. And you know, I bow to them for. Because they changed the industry. They changed the industry. So those are some of the seismic changes that I have seen.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Do you think your relationships with fans are different because of social media? I mean, you've always had such a strong fan base that you built.

[Beverly Jenkins]

I don't think it's changed. I think it's expanded my base because you know how much I love Twitter.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Same.

[Beverly Jenkins]

You know, I think it's giving me access to, to more readers who are like, oh, she's not a scary black woman, let me read her books. You know, and, and then they realize, oh, these are some good ass books. So let me buy more. I think my readership has probably expanded a good 35%. Oh, wow. Just from, from social media. And you know, and I, I know it's a cliche, but I always tell my fans when I count my blessings, I count them twice because they have been. I wouldn't be here without them. Books are expensive and they're taking their hard earned money and they're buying me or going to the library and borrowing me when they could be using that money for something else. So I am very, very grateful. And that's one of the things that I always tell new writers and aspiring writers is to treat your readers like they're the gold that they are, because they are gold. So. But yeah, I never met a, never met a stranger. So, you know, I'm loving the loving, the love that I get from social media. People keep telling me I need to be on Instagram and I'm like, my editor would slap me if I was on another social book. Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

So now I do wanna talk about, I'm bouncing back a little to your career. But you moved from. You didn't move. You added contemporaries at some point along the way and sweeter romance. So can you talk about that choice? The choice to sort of expand? You're amazing. You write a lot of books.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Erica asked me if I had any contemporaries.

[Sarah MacLean]

That's Erica saying, everybody. The editorial director of Avon Books.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah, she is awesome. She's been my editor since she was 12.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Editor, Maryland.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah. And I always say, you never say no.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Right?

[Beverly Jenkins]

You know, you never say no. So basically what I gave her was Edge of Midnight, but it was my first manuscript that I sent to Avon and probably the late 80s.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, wait, now, see, this is, this is a new piece of the story.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah, contemporary. It Was so bad. Oh, my God. You know, I told people, I said that book was so bad that the rejection letter almost beat me home from the post office when I mailed it. That's how bad it was. It was awful. But I put it away.

[Sarah MacLean]

Wait, I have a quake. I'm sorry.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

I have to stop.

[Sarah MacLean]

I have to pause on this. So you did write a contemporary. While you were. Was this simultaneous to writing Night Song? Like, were you writing them at the same time? And so. And why. So why did you write a contemporary? Was that because that was what romance was?

[Beverly Jenkins]

That's because that's what, you know, the stories started.

[Sarah MacLean]

That's what it was for you.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Okay.

[Beverly Jenkins]

The story started coming, so I put it away. And then when she asked if I had contemporary, I brought this very, very bad manuscript out again. And I looked at it, and I realized what it was. The reason it was so bad is, number one, I didn't know what the hell I was doing. I didn't know how to write. And number two, the characters were the descendants of Hester and Galen from Indigo. So that book could not have been published until after Indigo was written. So I went in, I cleaned it up. Now that I know how to write, right?

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

We're like, sure, you know how to write commercial fiction now.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Right? Right. You know, it's like 14 books in. I know what I'm doing now, I guess. And I realized, like I said, who the characters were. So that kicked off the. I think the five. The five romantic suspenses that I have. So it's Edge of Midnight, Edge of Dawn, Black Lace, and then the two Blake sisters, Deadly Sexy and Sexy Dangerous. And then I did, I don't know how many six or seven little novellas for Kimani in the middle of all of this. And then I realized, you need to take a step back because you are wearing yourself out writing. All because I was doing, like, you know, two big books and a novella or. And two novellas a year. So I was doing four books a year, and I was no longer a spring chicken, so I had to put those away for a while. But, yeah, so the characters in my Avon Romantic Suspense are descendants of my historical characters. And then the YA was something else that they asked me to do. I think there were five or six of us that they asked. We did two apiece. So I did Belle and I did Josephine. I think it was Meg Cabot and Lorraine Heath, and I'm not sure who the other ladies were.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

And then when did the Blessing series. Was that something you wanted to do or something. They suggested

[Beverly Jenkins]

Nancy sold the series without telling me.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, Nancy, what are you doing?

[Beverly Jenkins]

She had been on me for years about writing a small town series.

[Sarah MacLean]

And I'm like, well, because, let's be honest, like, small town. For a long time it felt like small town was where the money was in romance. Like if you could pull off, like the big small town where lots of people, there's just always a cupcake shop and a veterinarian.

[Beverly Jenkins]

I know, I know, but I didn't want to do that.

[Sarah MacLean]

Nancy was like, beverly, you like money?

[Beverly Jenkins]

Well, I do, I do. But I was content to continue to write these award winning African American historical. Right.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Right.

[Beverly Jenkins]

So after Mark passed away, I was up north with his mom and got a call from Nancy on my cell phone. She never called me on my cell phone. In fact, I don't even think she had a cell phone back then. And she said. I was like, I thought somebody had died, you know?

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Right.

[Beverly Jenkins]

You know, I'm like, oh, God, you know, is Erica okay? You know, that kind of thing. And she said, well, I sold the series. And I'm like, what are you talking about?

[Sarah MacLean]

What series?

[Beverly Jenkins]

Exactly? She said, remember that small town series I've been trying to get you to write? And I'm like, yes. She said, well, I love Nancy to death. She's just. She's so in charge of me, and I really need somebody to be in charge of me. And she is just the best. She said, well, I saw they only want a paragraph, just one paragraph. And here's the money.

[Sarah MacLean]

25 books, right.

[Beverly Jenkins]

They only want a paragraph to get it started. And here's the money. And I'm like, okay, well, I guess I'm writing a small town series.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Well, and it's. How many books now? I mean, 12 or 10.

[Sarah MacLean]

And a television show in progress.

[Beverly Jenkins]

I mean, I don't know if Al Roker would, you know, get together and call us. We could maybe figure out what we're doing.

[Sarah MacLean]

But I mean, it really. That's an interesting piece too, Bev, because, you know, you started publishing in the early 90s, which felt like a real time in romance. And now you are thriving in this, like, new. Really. It feels like we're in another new time in a lot of ways.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah, we're in a. We're in a different era now.

[Sarah MacLean]

You have an actual. You have a film that is complete and out and everybody can watch now.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah, yeah. You know, Iris, bless her heart, she did such a great job, and she made that movie with, you know, safety pins and Rubber bands.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

And a very handsome man.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Oh, yeah, Travis is. Yeah, he's pretty good. He's easy on the eyes.

[Sarah MacLean]

And then you have forbidden.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Then had the Sony thing. We sort of got a green light. And then the damn Dimmick hit, and the people who had been so gung ho about it scattered. Yeah. We're now back out on the block again looking for a home. And then Al Rokers. I didn't even know he had an entertainment arm. Frankly, I had no idea. My girlfriends were like, well, didn't you ever see the. The Holly Robinson Pete stuff on. I'm like, no, I don't watch Hallmark, so. You know, back then, black people didn't have Christmas on Hallmark. You know, no. Brown people and black people did not have Christmas on Hallmark or Lifetime, so why would I watch that? Sorry. No, it's real. It is what it. It is what it is, you know, so. But now things have changed, which is awesome. Supposedly, they're in talks with. With Hallmark. I'm not. You know, we're still waiting to see what is really going on, but if that is the case, I'm pretty. Pretty excited and all that. So we'll see, hopefully soon, what we can talk about is gonna happen.

[Sarah MacLean]

So can we talk a little bit about legacy? I know that you still think about, you know, you're still surprised people buy your books, but.

[Beverly Jenkins]

I am.

[Sarah MacLean]

I am.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Or not.

[Beverly Jenkins]

But they're gonna throw tomatoes at me this time.

[Sarah MacLean]

You know, I mean, I'm really curious. I'm curious about a couple of things. I'm curious about one of the questions that Jen and I, we've sort of been dancing around this, like, what's the question? The really, like, the best question to ask. So we have a few.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Okay.

[Sarah MacLean]

The first. The one that sort of came to me this week is, when did you know you could do this thing? When did you feel like, I'm a writer. I can do it. This is my.

[Beverly Jenkins]

I feel good about it after I survived the first deadline.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Okay. Okay.

[Beverly Jenkins]

14 pages of revision, white out in tape that they wanted in 35 days. I know what the hell I was doing, but I did it. Hubby did all the cooking. He did all the, you know, grabbing the kids from school. He did all of the mom stuff, fed me. And after that first book, and then when I saw it in the stores, one of the best things about that first book was that some of my elementary school teachers were still alive, and they were at those first, you know, sign ins when I did sign ins in Detroit, and they just Wept. They just wept because, you know, my mom always told me, my mom always said, you know, you're going to be somebody special. And the teachers dealt with me that way. They put me on a stage in the fourth grade and I've been on stage ever since. Never met a microphone I did not like, you know, but the idea that they were there to see my success meant a lot. So I don't know, you know, legacy girl, I don't know. You know, I think your legacy should be written by somebody else, not yourself. I think the readers could probably tell you what the books mean to them more than I can. I just like the idea of writing it and elevating our history and poking holes in the stereotypes like you would do with a pen and a balloon. And always, always portraying the race in a positive way. So I don't know, is that a legacy?

[Sarah MacLean]

I think so.

[Beverly Jenkins]

And standing on the shoulders of the actual historians who are actual historians, and now kitchen table historians like me. I owe a lot of people a lot for where I am today.

[Sarah MacLean]

I don't think there's ever been a time, Bev, when you and I have talked or when I've heard you speak where you haven't named the names of the people who have been a part of it.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Well, you know, it's so important because, you know, I didn't just show up and show out, you know, this was. I've been a project all my life. You know, my mother pouring stuff into me, my dad pouring stuff into me, my aunts who taught me style, wit and grace pouring stuff into me. My teachers, people in my neighborhood, my church, my siblings. We all just don't start out as the sun, you know, S u n gotta wait for the earth to cool and all of that kind of stuff.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

So when you think about your, like your, your body of work, what do you think of as being like the hallmarks of a Beverly Jenkins novel?

[Beverly Jenkins]

Entertainment, education, heroines who know who they are and the men who love them madly. I like the banter. I like that they all have the three gifts that I've talked about with Dorothy Sterling in the sense that they all work, they all have a commitment to community and they all, in different ways push the envelope on gender and race. And they're fun. Yeah, yeah, you know, they're inspiring to many people. They're uplifting. My stories center dark skinned black women in ways that have never been centered before. I'm just a little black girl from the east side of Detroit trying to write a story. Then, you know, that I can be proud of and that those who read it can be proud of.

[Sarah MacLean]

Do you feel like there was a book that turned the tide for you in terms of readership?

[Beverly Jenkins]

You know, I think my books are being discovered every day, which is an amazing kind of thing. Indigo. Course. And everybody talks about Indigo. And then we had a whole group of people with the Blessing series. That's a whole different group of folks. And then the ya, because there's nothing for young women that's historical that way. And, in fact, I got lots of letters. This is why I had to add an extra chapter. When we did the republishing, the girls wanted to know, did they get married? Sure. So I added the weddings.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, my gosh, what a gift.

[Beverly Jenkins]

At the end of each book, you know, And I got a lot of letters from the moms that were saying she wanted her daughters or daughter, you know, however many to know that this is how they should be treated by a young man. Old school. I mean, so, okay, so we got Milestones. We got Night Song, which is first. And then we've got the ya, and then we've got Edge of Midnight, because that was my first

[Sarah MacLean]

contemporary.

[Beverly Jenkins]

And then from that very, very awful manuscript to my first romantic suspense to the Blessing. So what is that? Four or five different.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Milestones.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

So we talked a little bit about your covers. Okay. I have to ask about Nighthawk, because it's.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's hot.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

I mean, so you had clinch. I mean, look, I'm a simple woman. Hey, I'm with you, and I don't know the order.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Right.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Cause my brain is full. Nighthawk is. I mean, obviously, he's so, like, handsome. But it's not a clinch cover.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Nope.

[Sarah MacLean]

Right.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

So is that something you asked for, or is that something where they gifted you this present?

[Beverly Jenkins]

Tom did that on his own.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Okay. Okay.

[Beverly Jenkins]

He sent it to me, and I told the story. I was on deadline, and I booted up the laptop, and that was the first thing I saw.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Okay.

[Beverly Jenkins]

And it was just the picture. It didn't have any of the printing on it. No letters, just that. Just this very hot guy. And I went, oh, hell, that'll wake a sister up. You know? Yes, please. Yes, more, please. And then I put him on the. Because I was like, okay, the ladies got to see this. So I put it on the Facebook page, and they went insane. And I told him around noon, I said, okay, I'm taking him down now so he can get a towel from y' all slobbering all over him and licking him Everywhere and all of that. Right. So then I got a request, a Facebook friend request from him. So I don't remember his name now. It's been.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Oh, the model.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah. It's like I said, my head's full, just like yours is full. But, yeah, no, that was. You know, that was Tom's gift.

[Sarah MacLean]

Tom knew.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah. And, you know, and it's. You know, and that whole thing with Preacher is so interesting because if you read his introduction to his character in Jesse Rose, he's very underwhelming. Very underwhelming.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

He just wasn't ready yet.

[Beverly Jenkins]

I know. And, you know, and the women were like, preacher, Preacher, Preacher. And some of my girlfriends were like, why in the hell do they want a book with him?

[Sarah MacLean]

But isn't that amazing? Romance readers, they just. They know. They know we know.

[Beverly Jenkins]

So I had to give him a makeover in order to make him, you know, Jenkins worthy or whatever. But I always. It always tickles me because, you know, he was not. He was just a bounty hunter. He wasn't even.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Listen.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Romance.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Just a bounty hunter.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Come on. I know, I know, I know.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Well, and that's it. It's interesting because I. And that was. Okay, let me look, because I'm gonna look here. 2010. Oh, 2011.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

So, I mean, and that's the thing. To me, it feels like. But he really is, like, the star of that book. You know what I mean?

[Sarah MacLean]

Right. He's such a.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Such a fascinating character.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah. He's the star of that book. And then Maggie. I met the real Maggie. I was in Omaha, Nebraska, for a book signing, and this young woman came up to me, and she was in tears. She was native and black, and she said, nobody's writing for me but me. Nobody's writing for her but me. And we really, really had a nice bonding kind of moment. This is before I wrote the book. So when we decided to do Preacher's book, I named the character Maggie. That was her name. Maggie Chandler Smith, and gave Maggie the real Maggie's ethnicity. So she does exist. Somebody told me. They said, well, Ms. Baby, you know, all your characters really existed in life sometime. I'm like, okay, that's kind of scary, you know, so. But Maggie does exist. She's in Nebraska.

[Sarah MacLean]

Wow. What a gift, Bev.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Wow.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well, this is fabulous. Thank you so much,

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Sarah. I love listening to Beverly Jenkins talk.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, I could listen to her all day, every day.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

She's fascinating, and I've been lucky enough to interview her. When Wild Rain came out, I did a YouTube interview with her that for love, Sweet arrow. So, you know, I have had the pleasure of talking to Ms. Bev, you know, several times, but I still think hearing someone's like, longitudinal story.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Right.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Like, you know, the focus is different when it's like, oh, you've got a new book out.

[Sarah MacLean]

I think it's worth listening to Bev's interviews on the Black Romance podcast.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

As well. We'll put links to those in show notes over there. You'll get a different kind of history from Bev, and I think the two together will be really interesting. If you're Beverly Jenkins fans, like we are, you know, one thing we should say is that she, in fact, does have a new book coming out this month.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Bev is returning to romantic suspense. And she has a book out with Montlake called Rare Danger, which, listen to this. A librarian's quiet life becomes a page turner of adventure, romance, and murder.

[Sarah MacLean]

Do, do, do. Also, now you know that all that librarian stuff will be properly sourced from her own life.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

I mean, Rebecca Romney's gonna love this. For Jasmine Ware, curating books for an exclusive clientele is her passion. Until an old friend, a dealer of rare books, goes missing and his partner is murdered. You know, I really love Ms. Bev's romantic suspense, so I think it's really cool to see her returning to this, to have an author still be, like, experimenting. You know, she's written ya, she writes romance, she writes historical. She's returning to romantic suspense. I love that there's.

[Beverly Jenkins]

I don't.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

I think it's like a real model for, like, you can keep doing whatever it is you wanna do.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. What's amazing to me as a writer is we all kind of have quiet stories in our head that we think, oh, maybe someday I'll write that book.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

But it seems to me like Bev has just an endless supply of them. And I don't feel like that with myself. I always sort of know what the next couple are, but, you know, but I feel like she's got romantic suspense, she's got the Blessing series, She's got all of her glorious historical. I feel like someday there's gonna be some epic sci fi or fantasy, something from her.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And I just. Every time I talk to her, I just feel really blessed to know her. And the other thing I really like from a. From an author perspective, Bev always reminds me how valuable readers are. And what I mean by that is, I mean, obviously I love the people who read my books, and I feel really honored to have them all Read my books. But what Beverly reminds me of every time we talk is how important, how the relationship between author and reader fills us both.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And that is something that you can lose sight of when you're kind of deep in the manuscript, like in the weeds. You forget sometimes that the well is filled by readers in the end, and that is always a good reminder. And I really value my friendship with Beverly because every time we talk, that's a piece that always comes through.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

And we heard her describe how different it was back in the day.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Right.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Where you're, like, sending actual newsletters. We're not just emails or.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. In print.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Right. And I mean, and I think that's the part of it, too. One of the things I. I really have loved about, like, the trailblazers, I mean, obviously, just hearing people's stories, but also, like, hearing what it was like. I mean, you know, like, okay, this, like, everybody, you and me, we have seen Romancing the Stone. And at the beginning of this movie, she's like a romance novelist in the 80s. She's, like, packing up her manuscript is, you know, is a bunch of papers in a box.

[Sarah MacLean]

We can't talk about it, but there's another trailblazer episode where we fully forgot

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

that, like, or I fully forgot that

[Sarah MacLean]

the world, the technology, did not exist.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

Back in the day.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

And that's, I think, part of what's cool about that is anytime you hear a story where people talk about, like, how the technology has changed, it just goes to show you how fast the world moves. But also, I mean, I don't know.

[Sarah MacLean]

So I, like, love.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

I really love those stories, too.

[Beverly Jenkins]

Right.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

Like, thinking about what it was like to curate a group of passionate readers who are your devoted fans and doing it without social media.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Jennifer (Jen) or Jen]

And so that's the thing that I also found. Yeah. Like, that reader connection with Bev is so strong.

[Sarah MacLean]

So we're avowed Stans of Beverly Jenkins here at Fated Mates. It will surprise none of you. So we are really. It's just one more week of feeling incredibly lucky to be able to do this thing that we love so much. You've been listening to Fated Mates. You can find [e-mail] where you'll find all sorts of links to all sorts of fun things like gear and stickers and music and other things. You can find us on Twitter aidedmates or on Instagram aidedmatespod or just, you know, you can find me at Sarah McLean.net JennreadsRomance.com where you can learn more about getting her to edit your next great masterpiece. And we are produced by Eric Mortensen. Thanks so much for listening Sa.